[Weekly Compilation of Presidential Documents Volume 44, Number 50 (Monday, December 22, 2008)]
[Pages 1560-1567]
[Online from the Government Publishing Office, www.gpo.gov]

<R04>
Interview With Steve Scully of
C-SPAN

December 18, 2008

The Presidency

    Mr. Scully. Mr. President, as we speak to you in the Oval Office, 
you're really one of only two individuals that can view the Presidency 
through your dad's eyes and your own. What has surprised you about this 
job?
    The President. Well, first of all, being the son of the President is 
much harder than being the President. I agonized for my dad. When they 
would say things about him that I didn't think were fair, I agonized, 
because I love him so much. And I sometimes didn't react so well. I mean 
I would get angry at whoever said it and, you know; anyway, I was 
frustrated.
    The President is a much different role, and therefore, I mean, I 
understand it comes with the job when people say things about you. And 
so we've got kind of a role reversal. My dad agonizes when he reads 
stuff about me. So I found that being President is actually easier than 
being the son of the President in many ways.

2004 Presidential Election

    Mr. Scully. You took the job with a Florida recount, a shortened 
transition period, and as you reflect on that time 8 years ago, were you 
in any way at a disadvantage in taking over this office?
    The President. That's an interesting question. I do think it--the 
Florida recount set kind of an ugly mood amongst some in the electorate. 
In other words, the election was--in their minds, was in doubt. That 
made it harder to come as a--to unify the country after the election.
    In terms of the transition, we had--I had a lot of experienced 
people that were ready to hit the ground. And they did a remarkable job 
of getting us ready to assume office when we did.

Presidents Meeting

    Mr. Scully. You announced yesterday that the former Presidents will 
meet with the incoming President----
    The President. Right.

[[Page 1561]]

    Mr. Scully. ----here at White House. Has that ever happened before?
    The President. I don't think so. And this is an idea that President-
elect Obama suggested here in the Oval Office when he came to visit me. 
And I'm going to follow up on it. I'll be the host, and I'm looking 
forward to it. It's going to be an interesting lunch.
    Mr. Scully. What will you talk about?
    The President. I don't know. I'm sure he's going to ask us all 
questions, I would guess; if not, we'll just share war stories.

President's Farewell Address

    Mr. Scully. Will you deliver a farewell address in this office?
    The President. Yes, I'm thinking about it. I'm thinking about it. A 
lot of Presidents have, and I'm giving it serious thought. I don't want 
it to be, you know, kind of a real emotional goodbye. If I give it, it's 
going to be trying to leave behind some lessons learned.
    Mr. Scully. Well, let me share with you what two former Presidents 
have said.
    The President. Good.
    Mr. Scully. First, Dwight Eisenhower in 1961 said, ``Crises will 
continue; [we'll face them]. In meeting them, whether foreign or 
domestic, great or small, there is a recurring temptation to feel that 
some spectacular [or] costly action could become the miraculous solution 
to all current difficulties.''
    The President. Right.
    Mr. Scully. And then he talked about the industrial military 
complex.
    The President. Right. That was an interesting observation. And 
obviously, each farewell address is going to be tailored to the 
circumstances under which the President had to make decisions.
    And I suspect if I do one--and I really haven't figured it out yet, 
but I have talked to a speechwriter about, should I decide to do it, 
what would we say? And one thing, of course, is going to be we have to 
be vigilant and can't let our guard down, because a terrorist threat 
still exists.
    Mr. Scully. Ronald Reagan had said, ``Are we doing a good enough job 
teaching our children what America is and what she represents in the 
long history of the world?'' In his statement of saying there's a great 
tradition of Presidential warnings as they leave the White House.
    The President. Interesting. I haven't really viewed the farewell 
address in terms of Presidential warnings, but I can--it makes sense to 
say, ``I've learned this, and I wish my successor all the best, and 
America needs to be on the lookout.''

    One option for me is to talk about isolationism and protectionism, 
and that it's very important for us to resist those ``isms.'' The world 
needs our presence. The people dying of AIDS on the continent of Africa 
need a robust response by the United States to save lives. We need 
voices calling upon coalition members to stay in the fight against the 
terrorists. And protectionism is rearing its ugly head; witness the fact 
that we had trouble getting good free trade agreements through the 
Congress with Panama and Colombia and South Korea.

    And so maybe that's what I'll warn about as well. Thank you for 
giving me some ideas.

Use of Former Presidents

    Mr. Scully. How should we use former Presidents? How do you want to 
be used, in what capacity, as you leave this office?

    The President. Yes. It's an interesting question. One thing I don't 
want to do is stay on the stage. The spotlight needs to shift to 
President-elect Obama, and it needs to stay on President-elect Obama, 
because he's the President. And therefore, I won't try to get it to 
shift to me. And I'll be very respectful of him during his Presidency.

    I think each President is going to have to chart his own way. I'm 
going to build a policy institute at Southern Methodist to talk about, 
for example, the ``isms''--isolationism and protectionism, and the need 
to resist them--or the transformative power of freedom.

    President-elect Obama, I am confident, will call upon Presidents to 
take on a mission. I will be happy to do it, particularly if I agree 
with the mission. For example, I asked Dad and President Clinton to help 
on the tsunamis. But, you know, each role will be defined according to 
the comfort level of the ex-President.

[[Page 1562]]

George W. Bush Presidential Library

    Mr. Scully. Are there some things that you want in your library?
    The President. Well, I do want to have a policy center. You mean in 
terms of how it's going to function?
    Mr. Scully. [Inaudible]--and the facility, and how it's going to 
work.
    The President. There will be the classic library, you know, rotating 
exhibitions to keep it relevant so people will be interested in it. And 
of course, there will be archives. They tell me that we moved 25,000 
boxes full of files and memos, and I think they said, like, 30 million 
e-mails--or 300 million e-mails. I mean, a huge number of e-mails; none 
of which are mine, by the way, since I haven't been e-mailing.
    And there will be a policy center. And this is a place of debate, 
discussion, a place to herald freedom, a place to continue some of the 
initiatives that we've started, like the malaria initiative on the 
continent of Africa, or PEPFAR. And Laura is going to be wanting to be 
involved with women's movements around the world, the freedom movement 
in Burma. And that--the policy center and the museum are going to take a 
lot of time.

President's Second Term

    Mr. Scully. You've had a tough couple of years. Most second 
Presidents have had tough second terms. Why is that?
    The President. Well, in my case, I was a wartime President, and war 
is very exhausting. War is hard for a country. And, you know, I made the 
decision that we were going to win. And there has been some critical 
moments where I guess I could have taken the popular way out and 
retreated, like in 2006, but instead went with 30,000 more troops, 
because I felt strongly that defeat in Iraq would be terrible for the 
security of the country, it would be terrible for the morale of the 
military, and it would be really hard for me, the Commander in Chief, to 
face a mother who lost a son in combat.
    The other part of my Presidency that's been hard is we've had, you 
know, huge economic turmoil recently. And, you know, I'm just so sorry 
it's happening. But it is happening, and therefore, I have made the 
decision not to let there be a massive collapse, which would hurt the 
average guy in the street. And what's hard about this one is, a hard-
working taxpayer is making his mortgage, wonders why the President is 
using his money to save firms that got a little over--got a little 
excessive in their desire to make money. And I understand that 
complaint. And my answer, of course, is, is that if I thought they could 
fail without causing the average guy real economic hardship, I'd have 
let them.
    Anyway, so it has been a--it's been an interesting Presidency from 
that perspective.

American Auto Industry

    Mr. Scully. One issue that continues to be in the news--the auto 
industry.
    The President. Yes.
    Mr. Scully. Are you looking for concessions from the unions in order 
to try to figure out how this is all going to come together?
    The President. Yes, you see, there's two principles that's driving 
me on this. One is, a disorderly bankruptcy could be very destabilizing 
for what is now a fragile financial market. In other words, I am 
concerned about a shock to the system. I'm also concerned about putting 
good money after bad. And therefore, it's going to be very important 
that whatever we do, that there be a plan that the autos--that would be 
management as well as dealers as well as labor--show how they could be 
viable for the future.
    You know, this is just a very difficult economic time for the 
country. And I am concerned about people's 401(k)s declining. I'm 
concerned about joblessness. But I made the decision that my team and 
myself will not let the economy go down.

Federal Government

    Mr. Scully. When you took office, did you expect to have the biggest 
expansion of the Federal Government under your watch?
    The President. I knew the mandatory spending--that would be Social 
Security and Medicare--were going to rise substantially because baby 
boomers like me were getting ready to retire. I didn't realize we'd be 
in war and--because, you know, the attacks of September the 11th came 
out of nowhere. But once we were in war, I darn sure was going to make 
our troops--make sure our

[[Page 1563]]

troops had what they need to succeed. And most of the growth in 
nonentitlement spending came on the military and homeland side. And you 
bet I was going to fund the troops, and you bet we're going to make sure 
the homeland is protected.

Presidential Vetoes

    Mr. Scully. Bill Clinton and Ronald Reagan in their 8 years used the 
veto pen three or four or five times as often as you have.
    The President. Yes.
    Mr. Scully. You've used it about a dozen times.
    The President. Right.
    Mr. Scully. Why?
    The President. Well, primarily because I was working with people in 
my own party. In other words, for the first 4 years of my Presidency--
see, up to '06, we ran the Congress, except in the beginning. And so 
therefore, I would sit down with colleagues--not ``colleagues,'' but 
party members and friends, and we'd work out our issues. And we got a 
lot done that I was satisfied with. Toward the end I had to veto because 
I didn't agree with what Congress was doing.
    And one area where it was very difficult for me was on the budget. 
See, you sit here in the Oval Office, and we'd agree with the--I'd agree 
with the Speaker and the leader of the Senate on the size of the pie--
``Here's what we need to spend, and here's this much for military and 
this much for education, this much for health.'' We all agreed to that. 
The problem was the slices of the pie got to be a problem because of 
earmarks. But I didn't have the line-item veto. And therefore, once you 
agree to the size of the pie, you're pretty well stuck with what's in 
the pie until the President gets the line-item veto.

Government's Checks-and-Balance System

    Mr. Scully. In terms of the institutions, do you think that the 
checks and balance work between this end of Pennsylvania Avenue and the 
other end?
    The President. Oh, absolutely, yes. I mean--and there's constant 
back and forth between the executive branch and the legislative branch, 
and of course the judiciary weighs in a lot. But yes, we got a great 
system.

U.S. Supreme Court

    Mr. Scully. How often, if at all, do you talk to the Supreme Court 
Justices?
    The President. Rarely. Rarely. You know, Laura and I hosted a dinner 
for the Justices and their spouses and--but, yes, I may see them 
socially or, you know, at some of these banquets that you go to where 
the comedian makes fun of the President, then the President makes fun of 
himself, and everybody has a jolly time, except the President. But, yes, 
the Justices will be at some of these dinners, and I'll just chitchat 
with them, but never talk policy, of course, with them.

Media Coverage of the President

    Mr. Scully. Media--another institution here.
    The President. Yes.
    Mr. Scully. A lot of cable talk shows, a lot of radio programs 
talking about you. First of all, do you watch the programs?
    The President. No.
    Mr. Scully. And have the media treated you fairly?
    The President. You know, it's hard to tell. I mean, I will tell you, 
my relationship with the media is--with the individuals in the media has 
been very good. And that's all I can expect. Of course, I read what's 
written, and I, a lot of times, don't like what's written. Then I 
realize they may not like what I'm saying. But I have no complaints. In 
other words, I'm not one of these guys who'll say, ``Oh, man, everybody 
misunderstood me because of the media.'' I'm a little disappointed at 
some of the platforms that encouraged harsh rhetoric.
    Mr. Scully. Such as?
    The President. ``Bush is a liar.'' And there's a--it seems like to 
me that there's such competition for air space that some people feel 
like if they can yell louder, with harsher rhetoric, then they'll get 
noticed.
    And the tone hasn't been good in Washington, and I've been 
disappointed in that, and I bear some of the blame for that.

[[Page 1564]]

Bipartisan Government

    Mr. Scully. Well, in fact, you said, on December 14, 2000: ``I'm 
optimistic that we can change the tone in Washington. I believe things 
happen for a reason, and I hope the long wait of the last 5 weeks will 
heighten a desire to move beyond the bitterness and the partisanship.''
    The President. Yes, yes. That was a hopeful person saying that. And, 
you know, there were some----
    Mr. Scully. Are you less hopeful?
    The President. Am I less hopeful now? Well, it didn't work out the 
way I was hoping it to--hoping it would. In other words, the tone 
didn't--it changed some initially. Remember, we got No Child Left Behind 
done; we got some--we worked together on PEPFAR. I mean, there were some 
bipartisan accomplishments. But the rhetoric got very tough. I mean, 
this is a--some people here in this town use the politics of personal 
destruction to advance their agenda. I don't want to sound self-serving, 
but I haven't, and I don't think a President should.
    But no, I was hoping for a better tone, and it didn't happen.

President-Elect Barack Obama

    Mr. Scully. So what would you tell President-elect Obama? He'll have 
a Democrat in the House and the Senate, like you did in 2001, and he's 
talked about trying to unite the country again.
    The President. I wish him all the best. I mean, I really do. I hope 
he succeeds. He may be in a position--maybe he won't have to deal with 
quite as contentious as issues as I did, or maybe he will, who knows. He 
came in with a strong vote, and he's got good majorities in the House 
and Senate, and maybe he'll get some things done.

President's Faith

    Mr. Scully. You've talked about your faith. In those quiet moments 
of prayer, do you want to share what you're thinking about, what you're 
praying for?
    The President. Probably not, but I can tell you the effects of 
prayer have made this a very--my life is joyous, believe it or not; some 
days happy, some days not happy--every day joyous.
    I have been comforted. I pray for a lot of things. I mean, I pray 
for my--I pray for strength, and I pray for comfort; I pray for friends; 
I pray for my family's safety. My relationship with the Almighty is a 
very personal relationship, as is yours.

The Presidency

    Mr. Scully. You are 8 years older. Do you think this job has aged 
you?
    The President. I don't know, what do you think? I mean, I think I'm 
wiser, and that I've seen a lot more. I know I'm more knowledgeable. My 
principles haven't changed. But you tell me, has it aged me? I can't--
I'm not one of these guys that kind of, you know----

President's Health

    Mr. Scully. You're biking on weekends.
    The President. Biking pretty good.
    Mr. Scully. You're physically fit.
    The President. Yes, I'm physically fit.
    Mr. Scully. Would you say you're among the healthiest Presidents to 
serve in this job?
    The President. Would I say that? I would think so; I don't know.
    Mr. Scully. So how do you do it?
    The President. I just work out and stay--I'm a disciplined person. I 
work out every day, except for one day, and I make sure my scheduler 
knows this. Early on in the Presidency I said, ``I want time to work 
out, because I think it's--I know part of being a--doing this job is to 
be a disciplined person.'' Like, I start meetings on time; I end them on 
time.
    I have got a routine that obviously varies depending on the moment, 
but a routine that's pretty well set. You know, I get here early in the 
morning and meet with the Chief of Staff and the National Security 
Adviser, then meet with the intelligence people. And pretty much that 
way throughout my Presidency. And the reason why is, is that I think 
it's important for a President to be predictable among the people with 
whom he works, so that there's not a--there's not a sloppiness in the 
organization.
    And anybody can find time to exercise if they put their mind to it.

[[Page 1565]]

Importance of Discipline

    Mr. Scully. What made you disciplined, though? What in your life 
created the schedule that you now carry out?
    The President. You know, it's an interesting question. I don't 
really know. I was undisciplined at times. I may have always been 
slightly disciplined. But, you know, I used to drink too much, which is 
a sign of being undisciplined. And it took discipline to quit, and maybe 
a little help from a higher authority. But I wasn't a knee-walking 
drunk, but I was--you know, I was drinking, and alcohol was beginning to 
compete for my affections. And so I quit. One night I had too much to 
drink in Colorado Springs, Colorado, and haven't had a drink since.
    So that's discipline as well. I don't know where it comes from; 
maybe my mom and dad. I haven't sat around and tried to figure it out; I 
can just tell you it's true.

President's Reading Habits

    Mr. Scully. How much time do you spend reading?
    The President. A lot. Yes, I'm a avid reader. I don't really watch a 
lot of TV, in all due respect. Of course, if I did, I'd be watching you. 
But I read a lot. I read a lot on airplanes; I read a lot upstairs at 
the White House; I read on the exercise bicycle.
    Mr. Scully. What do you take away from books? I mean, how do you 
translate what you read into how you make decisions or how you go about 
your business?
    The President. Well, sometimes books are just to escape, like 
mysteries, and it's just a chance to get your mind off the moment. 
Sometimes I read books to--a lot of history books, and I can take 
lessons away from the books, like Abraham Lincoln. I just finished a 
James McPherson book on Abraham Lincoln and his relationship with his 
generals, which is an interesting topic for a Commander in Chief. One of 
the lessons of Abraham Lincoln that all Presidents ought to understand, 
particularly at times of war, is that the President must pay attention 
to the troops. And Lincoln went out of his way to be with the sergeants 
and the enlisted personnel as well as the generals. And he--you know, he 
visited the wounded a lot, and he visited with widows a lot.
    And it's a good lesson for any President. And the lesson is, pay 
attention to your military and work with your military and show your 
military that you care for them. And you go to a hospital and see these 
wounded kids and word gets out all across the--you know, all across the 
system, where--and I've met with a lot of the families of the fallen, 
which is my duty, but I think the troops appreciate that, that the 
President cares enough about their comrades' families that he would meet 
with them. And, yes, it's an interesting experience to do that. The 
comforter in chief is the person who usually gets comforted.

President Abraham Lincoln

    Mr. Scully. You have had a number of events here as we begin to 
commemorate the 200th anniversary of Abraham Lincoln's bicentennial.
    The President. Yes.
    Mr. Scully. His picture is here, obviously, his bust in this office. 
That's one example about the Lincoln Presidency. But what else in the 17 
or 18 books that you've read on Lincoln do you take away from what he 
meant for this office and the country?
    The President. Well, he spoke with moral clarity on certain truths. 
And one basic truth was, all men are created equal under God; 1864, he 
could have easily have said, well, maybe not all of us are created 
equal. But Lincoln spoke with certainty. And I think Presidents need to 
do that, need to speak moral truth, have a set of principles that are 
inviolate.
    Self-pity is a horrible trait, and I'm confident all Presidents have 
been--have thought about saying, ``Oh, why me? Why do I have to carry 
this burden?'' And first of all, I don't believe it is a burden to be 
President. I don't believe there's--it's not a burden to deal with 
problems. But Lincoln keeps things in perspective. If you think you got 
a lousy time, think about what Abraham Lincoln went through. I mean, it 
was a tough time for Lincoln: 600,000 people died; he lost his son 
upstairs--Willie died in the White House; his wife was not happy. And 
yet, he was a man who stuck to principles and stayed strong and died not 
having any earthly idea of where his standing would be in history.

[[Page 1566]]

President's Staff

    Mr. Scully. There have been a couple of kiss-and-tell books about 
your own Presidency.
    The President. Yes.
    Mr. Scully. My question is, whether it's Scott McClellan or Paul 
O'Neill or others, does that affect the way a President deals with his 
Cabinet, his staff, and does that worry you?
    The President. It's interesting you said that. That's a very 
interesting question, because I had staff members walk up to me and say, 
``How can you trust me?'' And the answer is, I just do. I just do. Trust 
is a very important part of the White House. And the examples you just 
cited are very rare, very rare. Every President is going to have to deal 
with that. And it's essential that the President assure the people--and 
when these books come out, assure the people here that, ``I trust you a 
lot.'' And I think my words calmed some of the folks I work with down; 
that they didn't feel alienated.
    That's a fascinating question. First person who's asked me that.

The Oval Office

    Mr. Scully. In our remaining minute, let me ask you about this 
office.
    The President. Sure.
    Mr. Scully. The picture behind you----
    The President. That's called, ``A Charge To Keep.'' It's based upon 
a Methodist hymn called ``A Charge To Keep I Have,'' that was sung when 
I was first inaugurated Governor of Texas. And my friend O'Neil, Joe I. 
O'Neil, from Midland, Texas, said, ``I got a painting based upon that 
hymn; would you like to use it?'' And I looked at it and said, 
absolutely. It's by W.H.D. Koerner.
    The thing about O'Neil that's important is he introduced me and 
Laura in his backyard. He and Jan had a little barbeque out there, and 
there was two other guests, me and Laura. And about 3 months later, we 
were married.
    The importance of that painting is that it's obviously a religious 
painting. And I tell people the President should never promote a 
religion. But the President always ought to jealously guard and defend 
the right for anybody to worship or not worship; that we're all equal--
if we're Hindu, Jew, Muslim; it doesn't matter. It just doesn't matter. 
The greatness about America is you can choose and worship the way you 
want to worship.

Resolute Desk

    Mr. Scully. And this desk?
    The President. Called the Resolute. I entertain people here quite a 
bit. Recently, youngsters have come in and said, ``Hey, where's the 
hidden drawer?'' I said, ``What are you talking about?'' Well, it turns 
out the Resolute is famous in ``National Treasure,'' which I have not 
seen yet. But it's even more famous because Presidents have used it. 
Roosevelt put the door on there. Out the door John-John Kennedy poked 
his head in the most famous Oval Office photo. And President Reagan put 
the bottom there to lift it up.
    The desk was given to us by Queen Victoria. The wood is from a ship 
called the Resolute, HMS Resolute, that we rescued in the Arctic.
    And here's the thing that the desk reminds me of on a regular basis: 
That the institution of the Presidency is more important than the 
President; that the office is more important than the individual. And 
that's important, because whoever is in here will have strengths and 
weaknesses. And so we will come and go, but because of the institution 
of stability, the ship of state will sail on. And the job is to make 
tough calls, and I've had to make some. But the job is also to honor the 
office.

President's Last Day in Office

    Mr. Scully. So finally, you will leave this office the morning of 
January 20th.
    The President. That's right.
    Q. What will you be thinking?
    The President. I'll be wishing--you know, that's an interesting 
question. First of all, I'll be wishing President-elect Obama all the 
best--genuinely be wishing him all the best. And I will have said our 
final farewells. It turns out that the farewell party for the President 
stretches over about 45 days, it seems like. I mean, everything is a 
``last''--last this, last Christmas turkey pardon, last this--not 
Christmas turkey, Thanksgiving turkey pardon, I mean----

[[Page 1567]]

Presidential Transition

    Mr. Scully. Is it too long? Is the transition too long?
    The President. No, no, no. Actually, I think it's going to be good 
for me. I'm kind of an emotional guy anyway. I would hate to have the 
next to last and last day of the Presidency be one giant hug-fest. But 
we will have packed up, and we will have said goodbye to the folks that 
we have lived with for 8 years. And it will be emotional in that sense. 
But I anticipate with great interest watching an historic moment: The 
swearing in of the 44th President, who happens to be an African American 
male. And that's a big deal for America. And I will have a front row 
seat.
    Mr. Scully. Mr. President, thank you for your time.
    The President. Yes, sir.

Note: The interview was taped at 12:52 p.m. in Oval Office at the White 
House for later broadcast. In his remarks, the President referred to 
former Press Secretary Scott McClellan; and former Secretary of the 
Treasury Paul O'Neill.