[Weekly Compilation of Presidential Documents Volume 44, Number 6 (Monday, February 18, 2008)]
[Pages 198-202]
[Online from the Government Publishing Office, www.gpo.gov]

<R04>
Interview With Matt Frei of BBC World News America

February 14, 2008

President's Upcoming Visit to Africa

    Mr. Frei. Mr. President, thanks for joining us. You're famous for 
saying that you don't believe in opinion polls.
    The President. Yes.
    Mr. Frei. Do you have any idea how you rate in the countries that 
you're going to be visiting in Africa?
    The President. No, sir, I don't.
    Mr. Frei. Well, I've got news for you, and it's good news. You rate 
pretty well, sort of in the average 80s. Is that one of the reasons why 
you're going there? This is one part of the world where you're still 
very popular.
    The President. I go where needed. And, no, I'm going there because 
I've got a firm, heartfelt commitment to the continent of Africa--and 
had ever since I became President. It's in our interests, national 
interests that we help people who are suffering from disease and hunger 
and hopelessness. The only way a radical can recruit is to find somebody 
that's hopeless. I mean, their vision is, like, really dark and dim.
    Plus, I believe to whom much is given, much is required. And America 
has been given a lot, and it's required of us to help those who suffer. 
So mine is a mercy--a mission of mercy and a mission of the cold realism 
of the world in which we live--based upon the realism in the world in 
which we live.

President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief

    Mr. Frei. Your administration has given $15 billion to treat AIDS in 
Africa, which is an unprecedented amount of money, and you want to 
double that amount yet again. This is a huge commitment, and yet the 
administration and you, personally, don't seem to be getting a lot of 
credit for it.
    The President. Yes. You know, this is kind of tied to your first 
question about polls. Polls are nothing more than just like a poof of 
air. What matters is results. And ultimately, people will be able to 
make an objective judgment of a President and his administration and, in 
this case, a country's commitment.

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And so all I care, really, about is the results of the programs.
    I hope by now people have learned that I'm not one of these guys 
that really gives a darn about elite opinion. What I really care about 
is, are we saving lives? And in this case, we are. As I mentioned in my 
speech--that you kindly listened to--when I first went to sub-Sahara 
Africa, 50,000 people were receiving antiretrovirals; today, 1.3 
million. And that's a lot in a very quick period of time. But there's 
still so much more suffering, and that's why I've called for a doubling 
of aid.
    The good news is, it's not just America. As I mentioned in my 
speech, the G-8 nations also are supporting this very important 
initiative. And, you know, it's a--it's just--in other words, this isn't 
a paternalistic effort; this is an effort of mercy.
    Mr. Frei. But it has made a huge difference, hasn't it? So why not 
take some credit for it?
    The President. Because it's just not my nature. I really--you just 
got to understand about me, I'm more interested in seeing results and 
sharing the credit with the American people. I mean, this is not a 
George Bush effort. I just happen to be the leader of a nation that's 
willing to fund this kind of money. And so I praised Congress in my 
speech; I praised the American people in my speech. After all, they're 
the ones who are funding the effort.

Darfur

    Mr. Frei. You were very tough in your speech about Darfur. And yet 
again, you called what's happening there genocide.
    The President. Yes.
    Mr. Frei. Is enough being done by your administration to stop that?
    The President. I think we are, yes. You know, I had to make a 
seminal decision, and that is whether or not I would commit troops 
into--U.S. troops into Darfur. And I was pretty well backed off of it by 
a lot of folks here in America that care deeply about the issue. And so 
once you make that decision, then you have to rely upon an international 
organization like the United Nations to provide the oomph, the necessary 
manpower.
    And in my speech today, I did call it genocide again; I think we're 
the only nation that has done so. Secondly, I did remind people that 
we're sanctioning leaders, that we have targeted Sudanese companies and 
individuals, including a rebel leader who have yet to be constructive in 
the peace process. We're beginning to get a sense that these sanctions 
are affecting behavior. We're trying to ask others, by the way, to do 
the same thing, some of whom are reluctant, some who aren't. And then 
finally, I pledged that we'll help move troops in. And as I also said--
you might remind your listeners--that I'm frustrated by the pace.

U.S. Role in Darfur

    Mr. Frei. I'll get onto that in a minute, but, I mean, ``genocide'' 
is such a loaded--it's such an important word. And you have committed 
troops, American troops, around the world in other cases, Iraq, most 
famously, Afghanistan. Why not in this case?
    The President. Well, that's a good question. I mean, we're 
committing equipment, training, help, movement. I think a lot of the 
folks were concerned about America into another Muslim country. Some of 
the relief groups here just didn't think the strategy would be as 
effective as it was. I mean, I actually, believe it or not, listen to 
people's opinions and chose to make this decision. It's a decision that 
I'm now living with, and it's a decision that requires us to continue to 
rally the conscience of the world and get people to focus on the issue.
    You know, you're right. I mean, we sent marines into Liberia, for 
example, to help stabilize the country there. And Liberia's on my 
itinerary, where I'll meet with the first woman elected President in 
Africa's history. But I just made the decision I made.

Steven Spielberg/2008 Beijing Olympics/China's Role in Darfur

    Mr. Frei. Yesterday Steven Spielberg, the Hollywood director, pulled 
out of the Beijing Olympics over Darfur. He said the Chinese aren't 
doing enough to stop the killing in Darfur.
    The President. Yes.
    Mr. Frei. Do you applaud his move?
    The President. That's up to him. I'm going to the Olympics. I view 
the Olympics as a sporting event. On the other hand, I

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have a little different platform than Steven Spielberg, so I get to talk 
to President Hu Jintao. And I do remind him that he can do more to 
relieve the suffering in Darfur.
    There's a lot of issues that I suspect people are going to opine 
about during the Olympics. I mean, you got the Dalai Lama crowd; you've 
got global warming folks; you've got Darfur. And I just--I am not going 
to go and use the Olympics as an opportunity to express my opinions to 
the Chinese people in a public way because I do it all the time with the 
President. I mean, so people are going to be able to choose--pick and 
choose how they view the Olympics.

U.S. Foreign Policy/War on Terror

    Mr. Frei. The Chinese Government has been saying, in part in 
response to this, that America is trapped in cold war thinking.
    The President. Well, I think that's just a brush-back pitch, as we 
say in baseball. It's a--America is trapped in this notion that we care 
about human life; we respect human dignity--and that's not a trap; 
that's a belief--and that many of us in this country recognize that the 
human condition matters to our own national security.
    See, I happen to believe we're in an ideological struggle. And those 
who murder the innocent to achieve political objectives are evil people, 
but they have an ideology. And the only way you can recruit for that 
ideology is to find hopeless folks.
    I mean, who wants to join an ideology that say, women don't have 
rights; you can't express yourself freely; religious beliefs are--the 
only religious belief you can hold is the one we tell you; and, oh, by 
the way, it's great; you can be a suicider. Hopeless people are the ones 
who get attracted by that point of view. And therefore, it's in the 
world's interest, from a national security perspective, to deal with 
hopelessness.
    And it happens to be in our moral interest. I repeat to you: I 
believe to whom much is given, much is required. It happens to be a 
religious notion, but it should be a universal notion as well. And I 
believe America's soul is enriched, our spirit is enhanced when we help 
people who suffer.

Rwanda/Darfur

    Mr. Frei. I mentioned the genocide thing also because your 
predecessor, President Clinton, said that the one thing--one of the key 
things that keeps him up at night is that he didn't do enough over 
Rwanda to stop the killing there. Is it possible that Darfur might 
become your Rwanda?
    The President. I don't think so. I hope--I certainly hope not. I 
mean, Rwanda was, I think, 900,000 people in a very quick period of time 
of just wholesale slaughter. And I appreciate President Clinton's 
compassion and concern. And I'm comfortable with making a decision that 
I think is the best decision and comfortable with the notion that once 
that decision is made, we're keeping the world's focus as best as we can 
on that, amongst other issues.

Zimbabwe/South Africa

    Mr. Frei. You also had some very strong language today about 
Zimbabwe----
    The President. Yes, I did.
    Mr. Frei. ----which is an issue that certain--Britain and the United 
States care deeply about. Again, this has been going on for years. What 
can be done to stop the crisis in Zimbabwe?
    The President. Yes, I--first is call the--is to speak to the 
conscience of the world and remind people the facts. I mean, Zimbabwe 
was the breadbasket of southern Africa, and today, it's in line for food 
aid. Zimbabwe was a--is now a place where people are repressed because 
of their beliefs. And you're right; there is not a lot of outcry. And 
it's a frustrating--look, not everything is perfect in this world, and 
it just requires constant focus.
    And one way to do it is for the American President to speak out or 
the British Prime Minister to speak out. And, as you know, I mentioned 
South Africa. I have great respect for the people of South Africa. I 
just happen to believe their Government can do more to enhance a free 
society in their region. Yes, it's just--there's a lot of frustrations 
in this world, and there's a lot of hope in this world as well.

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President's Legacy

    Mr. Frei. You're nearing the end of your second term and, I guess, 
one can call is legacy time. Whatever you do and say about Africa, 
there's only one country, really, that the wider world will associate 
with you, and that equation is, Bush equals Iraq.
    The President. Yes.
    Mr. Frei. Are you happy about that?
    The President. Well, I mean, that's what the current elite would 
like everybody to think about, and that's fine. I think history will 
have a--when history marches on, there will be a little more objective 
look about the totality of this administration.
    Of course, our change in the way we did aid in Africa is substantial 
and different, and lives will have been saved. Dealing with liberating 
25 million in Afghanistan is part of what I hope people think of when 
they look at my Presidency. Being the first President to propose a two-
state solution on Israel and Palestine--I mean, there's a lot of other 
issues. And I'm happy with Iraq. The right--the decision to move Saddam 
Hussein was right, and this democracy is now taking root. And I'm 
confident that if America does not become isolationist and allow the 
terrorists to take back over, Iraq will succeed.

U.S. Troop Levels in Iraq

    Mr. Frei. Are you--do you regret, rather, I should say, that you 
didn't listen to your--some of your commanders earlier to send more 
troops to Iraq to achieve the kind of results that we're seeing now to 
some extent?
    The President. You know, my commanders didn't tell me that early. My 
commanders said, we got the right level of troops. You know, wars--it's 
easy to second--the tactical decisions of war, and I fully understand 
and expect that to happen. All I can do is base decisions on the 
considered judgment of the experts. And I did. And I take full 
responsibility for every military decision that's been made in Iraq.
    But I'm pleased with what's happening now. And the world is 
beginning to recognize that the decision to send more troops--was a 
pretty tough decision at the time--is providing enough security for the 
politics to take place. And this morning--you're the first reporter I've 
been able to describe these conversations to, but I did speak to the 
Prime Minister, the Speaker, and two Deputy Speakers to congratulate 
them on a series of substantial legislative achievements that are 
beginning to say to the world and, more importantly, the Iraqi people, 
reconciliation is happening, and the legislative body is beginning to 
function, which is good news.

U.S. Surveillance Reform Legislation and Interrogation Techniques

    Mr. Frei. The Senate yesterday passed a bill outlawing 
waterboarding. You, I believe, have said that you will veto that bill. 
Does that not send the wrong signal to the rest of the world?
    The President. No, look, that's not the reason I'm vetoing the bill. 
The reason I'm vetoing the bill--first of all, we have said that 
whatever we do is for legal--will be legal. Secondly, they are imposing 
a set of standards on our intelligence communities, in terms of 
interrogating prisoners, that our people will think will be ineffective.
    And to the critics, I ask them this: When we, within the law, 
interrogate and get information that protects ourselves and possibly 
others and other nations--to prevent attacks--which attack would they 
had hoped that we wouldn't have prevented? And so the United States will 
act within the law, and we'll make sure our professionals have the tools 
necessary to do their job within the law.
    Now, I recognize some say that these terrorists really aren't that 
big a threat to the United States anymore. I fully disagree. And I think 
the President must give these professionals, within the law, the 
necessary tools to protect us. So we're having a debate not only on how 
you interrogate people; we're having a debate in America on whether or 
not we ought to be listening to terrorists making phone calls in the 
United States. And the answer is, darn right we ought to be.

War on Terror/Guantanamo Bay Detainees

    Mr. Frei. But given Guantanamo Bay, given also Abu Ghraib, given 
renditions, does this not send the wrong signal to the world?
    The President. It should send the signal that America is going to 
respect law but is going to take actions necessary to protect

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ourselves and find information that may protect others. Unless, of 
course, people say, ``Well, there's no threat. They're just making up 
the threat. These people aren't problematic.'' But I don't see how you 
can say that in Great Britain, after people came and blew up bombs in 
subways. I suspect the families of those victims understand the nature 
of killers.
    And so what people got to understand is, we'll make decisions based 
upon law. We're a nation of law. Take Guantanamo--look, I'd like it to 
be empty. On the other hand, there's some people there that need to be 
tried. And there will be a trial, and they'll have their day in court, 
unlike what they did to other people.
    No, there's great concern about--and I can understand this--that 
these people be given rights, but they're not willing to grant the same 
rights to others. They'll murder, but you got to understand, they're 
getting rights. And I'm comfortable with the decisions we've made, and 
I'm comfortable with recognizing this is still a dangerous world.

U.S. Foreign Policy

    Mr. Frei. Can you honestly say, Mr. President, that today, America 
still occupies the moral high ground?
    The President. Absolutely. Absolutely. We believe in human rights 
and human dignity. We believe in the human condition. We believe in 
freedom. And we're willing to take the lead; we're willing to ask 
nations to do hard things; we're willing to accept responsibilities. 
And, yes, no question in my mind, this is a nation that's a force for 
good. And history will judge the decisions made during this period of 
time as necessary decisions. And I firmly believe that we are laying the 
foundation for peace.
    People have written off the Middle East--it's impossible to have--
change the conditions there; let's just ignore it, or let's promote 
stability, which was part of the foreign policy of the past. I chose a 
different course. Stability didn't work. Stability created the 
conditions that were ripe for these terrorists to emerge and recruit. I 
happen to believe free societies provide hope. And I would hope that 
people in Europe, for example, understand that freedom has led to 
peace--and ought to be supporting the freedom movements and not shy away 
from the responsibility of the comfortable to help those who long for 
freedom.
    And it's hard work. It's really hard work, and it doesn't happen 
instantly. You know, we live in a world--like, in all due respect to 24-
hour news, we live in a world where everything is, like, instant. But 
the work we're doing is--it takes patience, but most importantly, it 
takes faith in the universality of freedom that exists in every heart.
    And so, yes, I'm not only happy to defend decisions; I'm confident 
that they will lead to a better tomorrow.
    Mr. Frei. Mr. President, I gather we've run out of time. Thanks for 
doing this.
    The President. Thank you, sir. You bet.
    Mr. Frei. Thank you.

Note: The interview was taped at 11:12 a.m. in the Library at the White 
House for later broadcast. In his remarks, the President referred to 
President Ellen Johnson Sirleaf of Liberia; Prime Minister Gordon Brown 
of the United Kingdom; Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki of Iraq; and 
Speaker Mahmud al-Mashhadani, First Deputy Speaker Khalid al-Atiya, and 
Second Deputy Speaker Arif Tayfur of the Iraqi House of Representatives. 
He also referred to H.R. 2082. The transcript was released by the Office 
of the Press Secretary on February 15.