[Weekly Compilation of Presidential Documents Volume 40, Number 42 (Monday, October 18, 2004)]
[Pages 2289-2311]
[Online from the Government Publishing Office, www.gpo.gov]

<R04>
Presidential Debate in St. Louis, Missouri

October 8, 2004

    Charles Gibson. Good evening from the Field House at Washington 
University in St. Louis. I'm Charles Gibson of ABC News and ``Good 
Morning America.'' I welcome you to the second of the 2004 Presidential 
debates between President George W. Bush, the Republican nominee, and 
Senator John Kerry, the Democratic nominee. The debates are sponsored by 
the Commission on Presidential Debates.
    Tonight's format is going to be a bit different. We have assembled a 
townhall meeting. We're in the ``Show Me'' State, as everyone knows 
Missouri to be, so Missouri residents will ask the questions, these 140 
citizens who were identified by the Gallup Organization as not yet 
committed in this election. Now, earlier today each audience member gave 
me two questions on cards like this: One they'd like to ask of the 
President; the other they'd like to ask the Senator. I have selected the 
questions to be asked and the order. No one has seen the final list of 
questions but me--certainly not the candidates. No audience member knows 
if he or she will be called upon. Audience microphones will be turned 
off after a question is asked.
    Audience members will address their question to a specific 
candidate. He'll have 2 minutes to answer. The other candidate will have 
a minute and a half for rebuttal. And I have the option of extending 
discussion for 1 minute, to be divided equally between the two men. All 
subjects are open for discussion. And you probably know the light system 
by now, green light at 30 seconds, yellow at 15, red at 5, and flashing 
red means you're done. Those are the candidates' rules. I will hold the 
candidates to the time limits forcefully, but politely, I hope.
    And now please join me in welcoming, with great respect, President 
Bush and Senator Kerry.
    Gentlemen, to the business at hand. The first question is for 
Senator Kerry, and it will come from Cheryl Otis, who is right behind 
me.

Consistent Leadership

    Cheryl Otis. Senator Kerry, after talking to several coworkers and 
family and friends, I asked the ones who said they were not voting for 
you, why. They said that you were too wishy-washy. Do you have a reply 
for them?
    Senator Kerry. Yes, I certainly do. [Laughter] But let me just 
first, Cheryl, if you will, I want to thank Charlie for moderating. I 
want to thank Washington University for hosting us here this evening. 
Mr. President, it's good to be with you again this evening, sir.
    Cheryl, the President didn't find weapons of mass destruction in 
Iraq, so he's really turned his campaign into a weapon of mass 
deception. And the result is that you've been bombarded with 
advertisements suggesting that I've changed a position on this or that 
or the other. Now, the three things they try to say I've changed 
position on are the PATRIOT Act--I haven't. I support it. I just don't 
like the way John Ashcroft has applied it. And we're going to change a 
few things. The chairman of the Republican Party thinks we ought to 
change a few things.
    No Child Left Behind Act--I voted for it. I support it. I support 
the goals. But the President has underfunded it by $28 billion. Right 
here in St. Louis, you've laid off 350 teachers. You're 150--excuse me, 
I think it's a little more--about $100 million shy of what you ought to 
be under the No Child Left Behind Act to help your education system 
here. So I complain about that. I've argued that we should fully fund 
it. The President says I've changed my mind. I haven't

[[Page 2290]]

changed my mind. I'm going to fully fund it. So these are the 
differences.
    Now, the President has presided over the economy where we've lost 
1.6 million jobs, the first President in 72 years to lose jobs. I have a 
plan to put people back to work. That's not wishy-washy. I'm going to 
close the loopholes that actually encourage companies to go overseas. 
The President wants to keep them open. I think I'm right. I think he's 
wrong.
    I'm going to give you a tax cut. The President gave--the top one 
percent of income earners in America got $89 billion last year, more 
than the 80 percent of people who earn $100,000 or less all put 
together. I think that's wrong. That's not wishy-washy, and that's what 
I'm fighting for--you.
    Mr. Gibson. Mr. President, a minute and a half.
    President Bush. Charlie, thank you, and thank our panelists. 
Senator, thank you. I can--and thanks, Washington U. as well.
    I can see why people at your workplace think he changes positions a 
lot, because he does. He said he voted for the $87 billion and--or voted 
against it right before he voted for it. And that sends a confusing 
signal to people. He said he thought Saddam Hussein was a grave threat 
and now said it was a mistake to remove Saddam Hussein from power. No, I 
can see why people think that he changes position quite often, because 
he does.
    You know, for a while, he was a strong supporter of getting rid of 
Saddam Hussein. He saw the wisdom, until the Democratic primary came 
along and Howard Dean, the antiwar candidate, began to gain on him. And 
he changed positions. I don't see how you can lead this country in a 
time of war, in a time of uncertainty, if you change your mind because 
of politics.
    He just brought up the tax cut. You remember, we increased that 
child credit by $1000, reduced the marriage penalty, created a 10-
percent tax bracket for the lower income Americans--that's right at the 
middle class. He voted against it, and yet he tells you he's for a 
middle-class tax cut. It's--you've got to be consistent when you're the 
President. There's a lot of pressures, and you've got to be firm and 
consistent.
    Mr. Gibson. Mr. President, I would follow up, but we have a series 
of questions on Iraq, and so I will turn to the next questioner. The 
question for President Bush, and the questioner is Robin Dahle.

Iraqi Weapons of Mass Destruction

    Robin Dahle. Mr. President----
    Mr. Gibson. Can you get a microphone, Robin, I'm sorry.
    Mr. Dahle. Mr. President, yesterday in a statement you admitted that 
Iraq did not have weapons of mass destruction but justified the invasion 
by stating, I quote, ``He retained the knowledge, the materials, the 
means, and the intent to produce weapons of mass destruction and could 
have passed this knowledge to our terrorist enemies.'' Do you sincerely 
believe this to be a reasonable justification for invasion when this 
statement applies to so many other countries, including North Korea?
    President Bush. Each situation is different, Robin. And obviously, 
we hope that diplomacy works before you ever use force. The hardest 
decision a President makes is ever to use force.
    After 9/11, we had to look at the world differently. After 9/11, we 
had to recognize that when we saw a threat, we must take it seriously 
before it comes to hurt us. In the old days, we'd see a threat, and we 
could deal with it if we felt like it or not. But 9/11 changed it all.
    I vowed to our countrymen that I would do everything I could to 
protect the American people. That's why we're bringing Al Qaida to 
justice. Seventy-five percent of them have been brought to justice. 
That's why I said to Afghanistan, ``If you harbor a terrorist, you're 
just as guilty as the terrorist.'' And the Taliban is no longer in 
power, and Al Qaida no longer has a place to plan.
    And I saw a unique threat in Saddam Hussein, as did my opponent, 
because we thought he had weapons of mass destruction. And the unique 
threat was that he could give weapons of mass destruction to an 
organization like Al Qaida, and the harm they inflicted on us with 
airplanes would be multiplied greatly by weapons of mass destruction. 
And that was a serious, serious threat.

[[Page 2291]]

    So I tried diplomacy. I went to the United Nations. But as we 
learned in the same report I quoted, Saddam Hussein was gaming the Oil 
for Food Programme to get rid of sanctions. He was trying to get rid of 
sanctions for a reason. He wanted to restart his weapons programs.
    We all thought there was weapons there, Robin. My opponent thought 
there was weapons there. That's why he called him a grave threat. I 
wasn't happy when we found out there wasn't weapons, and we've got an 
intelligence group together to figure out why. But Saddam Hussein was a 
unique threat, and the world is better off without him in power. And my 
opponent's plans lead me to conclude that Saddam Hussein would still be 
in power and the world would be more dangerous.
    Thank you, sir.
    Mr. Gibson. Senator Kerry, a minute and a half.
    Senator Kerry. Robin, I'm going to answer your question. I'm also 
going to talk--respond to what you asked, Cheryl, at the same time.
    The world is more dangerous today. The world is more dangerous today 
because the President didn't make the right judgments. Now, the 
President wishes that I had changed my mind. He wants you to believe 
that, because he can't come here and tell you that he's created new jobs 
for America. He's lost jobs. He can't come here and tell you that he's 
created health care for Americans because one-point--what, we've got 5 
million Americans who have lost their health care, 96,000 of them right 
here in Missouri. He can't come here and tell you that he's left no 
child behind because he didn't fund No Child Left Behind.
    So what does he do? He's trying to attack me. He wants you to 
believe that I can't be President, and he's trying to make you believe 
it because he wants you to think I change my mind.
    Well, let me tell you straight up, I've never changed my mind about 
Iraq. I do believe Saddam Hussein was a threat. I always believed he was 
a threat--believed it in 1998 when Clinton was President. I wanted to 
give Clinton the power to use force if necessary. But I would have used 
that force wisely. I would have used that authority wisely, not rushed 
to war without a plan to win the peace. I would have brought our allies 
to our side. I would have fought to make certain our troops had 
everybody possible to help them win the mission.

    This President rushed to war, pushed our allies aside, and Iran now 
is more dangerous, and so is North Korea with nuclear weapons. He took 
his eye off the ball, off of Usama bin Laden.

    Mr. Gibson. Mr. President, I do want to follow up on this one, 
because there were several questions from the audience along this line.

    President Bush. Are we going to have a rebuttal thing back and 
forth?

    Mr. Gibson. Well, I was going to have you do it with the rebuttal. 
But you go ahead. [Laughter] You're up.

    President Bush. Remember the last debate? My opponent said that 
America must pass a global test before we use force to protect 
ourselves. That's the kind of mindset that says sanctions were working. 
That's the kind of mindset that says let's keep it at the United Nations 
and hope things go well.

    Saddam Hussein was a threat because he could have given weapons of 
mass destruction to terrorist enemies. Sanctions were not working. The 
United Nations was not effective at removing Saddam Hussein.

    Mr. Gibson. Senator?

    Senator Kerry. The goal of the sanctions was not to remove Saddam 
Hussein. It was to remove the weapons of mass destruction. And Mr. 
President, just yesterday the Duelfer report told you and the whole 
world they worked. He didn't have weapons of mass destruction, Mr. 
President. That was the objective. And if we had used smart diplomacy, 
we could have saved $200 billion and an invasion of Iraq, and right now 
Usama bin Laden might be in jail or dead. That's the war against terror.

    Mr. Gibson. We're going to have another question now on the subject 
of Iraq. And I'm just going to turn to Anthony Baldi with a question for 
Senator Kerry.

    Mr. Baldi.

[[Page 2292]]

Iraq/War on Terror

    Anthony Baldi. Senator Kerry, the U.S. is preparing a new Iraq 
Government, and we'll proceed to withdraw U.S. troops. Would you proceed 
with the same plans as President Bush?
    Senator Kerry. Anthony, I would not. I have laid out a different 
plan because the President's plan is not working. You see that every 
night on television. There's chaos in Iraq. King Abdullah of Jordan said 
just yesterday--or the day before, you can't hold elections in Iraq with 
the chaos that's going on today. Senator Richard Lugar, the Republican 
chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee, said that the handling of 
the reconstruction aid in Iraq by this administration has been 
``incompetent.'' Those are the Republican chairman's words. Senator 
Hagel of Nebraska said that the handling of Iraq is ``beyond pitiful, 
beyond embarrassing. It's in the zone of dangerous.'' Those are the 
words of two Republicans, respected, both on the Foreign Relations 
Committee.
    Now, I have to tell you, I would do something different. I would 
reach out to our allies in a way that this President hasn't. He pushed 
them away time and again, pushed them away at the U.N., pushed them away 
individually. Two weeks ago, there was a meeting of the North Atlantic 
Council, which is the political arm of NATO. They discussed the 
possibility of a small training unit or having a total takeover of the 
training in Iraq. Did our administration push for the total training of 
Iraq? No. Were they silent? Yes. Was there an effort to bring all the 
allies together around that? No--because they've always wanted this to 
be an American effort. You know, they even had the Defense Department 
issue a memorandum saying don't bother applying for assistance or for 
being part of the reconstruction if you weren't part of our original 
coalition.
    Now, that's not a good way to build support and reduce the risk for 
our troops and make America safer. I'm going to get the training done 
for our troops. I'm going to get the training of Iraqis done faster, and 
I'm going to get our allies back to the table.
    President Bush. Two days ago in the Oval Office, I met with the 
Finance Minister from Iraq. He came to see me, and he talked about how 
optimistic he was and the country was about heading toward elections. 
Think about it. They're going from tyranny to elections. He talked about 
the reconstruction efforts that are beginning to take hold. He talked 
about the fact that Iraqis love to be free. He said he was optimistic 
when he came here. Then he turned on the TV and listened to the 
political rhetoric, and all of a sudden he was pessimistic.
    This is a guy who, along with others, has taken great risk for 
freedom, and we need to stand with him. My opponent says he has a plan--
sounds familiar because it's called the Bush plan. We're going to train 
troops, and we are. We'll have 125,000 trained by the end of December. 
We're spending about $7 billion.
    He talks about a grand idea: Let's have a summit; we're going to 
solve the problem in Iraq by holding a summit. And what is he going to 
say to those people that show up to the summit? ``Join me in the wrong 
war at the wrong time at the wrong place''? Risk your troops in a war 
you've called a ``mistake''? Nobody is going to follow somebody who 
doesn't believe we can succeed and somebody who says the war where we 
are is a ``mistake.'' I know how these people think. I meet with them 
all the time. I talk to Tony Blair all the time. I talk to Silvio 
Berlusconi. They're not going to follow an American President who says, 
``Follow me into a mistake.''
    Our plan is working. We're going to make elections, and Iraq is 
going to be free, and America will be better off for it.
    Mr. Gibson. Do you want to follow up, Senator?
    Senator Kerry. Yes, sir, please.
    Ladies and gentlemen, the right war was Usama bin Laden and 
Afghanistan. That was the right place, and the right time was Tora Bora, 
when we had him cornered in the mountains. Now, everyone in the world 
knows that there were no weapons of mass destruction. That was the 
reason Congress gave him the authority to use force, not after excuse to 
get rid of the regime.
    Now we have to succeed. I've always said that. I have been 
consistent. Yes, we have to succeed, and I have a better plan to help us 
do it.

[[Page 2293]]

    President Bush. First of all, we didn't find out he didn't have 
weapons until we got there, and my opponent thought he had weapons and 
told everybody he thought he had weapons. And secondly, it's a 
fundamental misunderstanding to say that the war on terror is only Usama 
bin Laden. The war on terror is to make sure that these terrorist 
organizations do not end up with weapons of mass destruction. That's 
what the war on terror is about.
    Of course we're going to find Usama bin Laden. We've already got 75 
percent of his people, and we're on the hunt for him. But this is a 
global conflict that requires firm resolve.
    Mr. Gibson. The next question is for President Bush, and it comes 
from Nikki Washington.

President's Decisionmaking on Iraq

    Nikki Washington. Thank you. Mr. President, my mother and sister 
traveled abroad this summer, and when they got back, they talked to us 
about how shocked they were at the intensity of aggravation that other 
countries had with how we handled the Iraq situation. Diplomacy is, 
obviously, something that we have to really work on. What is your plan 
to repair relations with other countries, given the current situation?
    President Bush. No, I appreciate that. I--listen, I--we've got a 
great country. I love our values. And I recognize I've made some 
decisions that have caused people to not understand the great values of 
our country. I remember when Ronald Reagan was the President. He stood 
on principle. Some might have called that stubborn. He stood on 
principle, standing up to the Soviet Union. And we won that conflict, 
yet at the same time, he was very--we were very unpopular in Europe 
because of decisions he made.
    I recognize that taking Saddam Hussein out was unpopular, but I made 
the decision because I thought it was in the right interests of our 
security.
    You know, I've made some decisions on Israel. That's unpopular. I 
wouldn't deal with Arafat because I felt like he had let the former 
President down, and I don't think he's the kind of person that can lead 
toward a Palestinian state. And people in Europe didn't like that 
decision. And that was unpopular, but it was the right thing to do. I 
believe Palestinians ought to have a state, but I know they need 
leadership that's committed to democracy and freedom, leadership that 
will be willing to reject terrorism.
    I made a decision not to join the International Criminal Court in 
The Hague, which is where our troops could be brought to--brought in 
front of a judge, an unaccounted judge. I don't think we ought to join 
that. That was unpopular. And so what I'm telling you is, is that 
sometimes in this world you make unpopular decisions because you think 
they're right.
    We'll continue to reach out. Listen, there's 30 nations involved in 
Iraq, some 40 nations involved in Afghanistan. People love America. 
Sometimes they don't like the decisions made by America, but I don't 
think you want a President who tries to become popular and does the 
wrong thing. You don't want to join the International Criminal Court 
just because it's popular in certain capitals in Europe.
    Mr. Gibson. Senator Kerry, a minute and a half.
    Senator Kerry. Nikki, that's a question that's been raised by a lot 
of people around the country. Let me address it but also talk about the 
weapons the President just talked about, because every part of the 
President's answer just now promises you more of the same over the next 
4 years.
    The President stood right here in this hall 4 years ago, and he was 
asked a question by somebody just like you: Under what circumstances 
would you send people to war? And his answer was: With a viable exit 
strategy and only with enough forces to get the job done. He didn't do 
that. He broke that promise. We didn't have enough forces. General 
Shinseki, the Army Chief of Staff, told him he was going to need several 
hundred thousand. And guess what? They retired General Shinseki for 
telling him that. This President hasn't listened.
    I went to meet with the members of the Security Council in the week 
before we voted. I went to New York. I talked to all of them to find out 
how serious they were about really holding Saddam Hussein accountable. I 
came away convinced that if we

[[Page 2294]]

worked at it, if we were ready to work at letting Hans Blix do his job 
and thoroughly go through the inspections, that if push came to shove, 
they'd be there with us.
    But the President just arbitrarily brought the hammer down and said, 
``Nope, sorry, time for diplomacy is over. We're going.'' He rushed to 
war without a plan to win the peace. Ladies and gentlemen, he gave you a 
speech and told you he'd plan carefully, take every precaution, take our 
allies with us. He didn't. He broke his word.
    Mr. Gibson. Mr. President.
    President Bush. I remember sitting in the White House, looking at 
those generals, saying, ``Do you have what you need in this war? Do you 
have what it takes?'' I remember going down in the basement of the White 
House the day we committed our troops--as last resort--looking at Tommy 
Franks and the generals on the ground, asking them, ``Do we have the 
right plan with the right troop level?'' And they looked me in the eye 
and said, ``Yes, sir, Mr. President.'' Of course I listened to our 
generals. That's what a President does. A President sets the strategy 
and relies upon good military people to execute that strategy.
    Mr. Gibson. Senator.
    Senator Kerry. You rely on good military people to execute the 
military component of the strategy, but winning the peace is larger than 
just the military component. General Shinseki had the wisdom to say 
you're going to need several hundred thousand troops to win the peace. 
The military's job is to win the war. The President's job is to win the 
peace. The President did not do what was necessary, didn't bring in 
enough nations, didn't deliver the help, didn't close off the borders, 
didn't even guard the ammo dumps. And now our kids are being killed with 
ammos right out of that dump.
    Mr. Gibson. The next question is for Senator Kerry, and it comes 
from over here, from Randee Jacobs. You'll need a microphone.
    Senator Kerry. Is it Randee? I'm sorry.

Iran/North Korea

    Randee Jacobs. Yes, Randee. Iran sponsors terrorism and has missiles 
capable of hitting Israel and southern Europe. Iran will have nuclear 
weapons in 2 to 3 years' time. In the event that U.N. sanctions don't 
stop this threat, what will you do as President?
    Senator Kerry. I don't think you can just rely on U.N. sanctions, 
Randee, but you're absolutely correct. It is a threat. It's a huge 
threat. And what's interesting is it's a threat that has grown while the 
President has been preoccupied with Iraq, where there wasn't a threat. 
If he'd let the inspectors do their job and go on, we wouldn't have 10 
times the numbers of forces in Iraq that we have in Afghanistan chasing 
Usama bin Laden.
    Meanwhile, while Iran is moving towards nuclear weapons--some 37 
tons of what they call yellow cake, the stuff they use to make enriched 
uranium--while they're doing that, North Korea has moved from one bomb, 
maybe--maybe--to 4 to 7 bombs.
    For 2 years the President didn't even engage with North Korea, did 
nothing at all, while it was growing more dangerous, despite the 
warnings of people like former Secretary of Defense William Perry, who 
negotiated getting television cameras and inspectors into that reactor. 
We were safer before President Bush came to office. Now, they have the 
bombs, and we're less safe.
    So what do we do? We've got to join with the British and the French, 
with the Germans who've been involved in their initiative. We've got to 
lead the world now to crack down on proliferation as a whole. But the 
President has been slow to do that even in Russia. At his pace, it's 
going to take 13 years to reduce and get a hold of all the loose nuclear 
material in the former Soviet Union. I've proposed a plan that can 
capture it and contain it and clean it within 4 years.
    And the President is moving toward the creation of our own bunker-
busting nuclear weapon. It's very hard to get other countries to give up 
their weapons when you're busy developing a new one. I'm going to lead 
the world in the greatest counterproliferation effort, and if we have to 
get tough with Iran, believe me, we will get tough.
    Mr. Gibson. Mr. President, a minute and a half.
    President Bush. That answer almost made me want to scowl. [Laughter] 
He keeps talking about letting the inspectors do their job. It's naive 
and dangerous to say that.

[[Page 2295]]

That's what the Duelfer report showed. He was deceiving the inspectors.
    Secondly, of course we've been involved with Iran. I fully 
understand the threat. And that's why we're doing what he suggested we 
do, get the Brits, the Germans, and the French to go make it very clear 
to the Iranians that if they expect to be a party to the world, to give 
up their nuclear ambitions. We've been doing that.
    Let me talk about North Korea. It is naive and dangerous to take a 
policy that he suggested the other day, which is to have bilateral 
relations with North Korea. Remember, he is the person who is accusing 
me of not acting multilaterally. He now wants to take the six-party 
talks we have--China, North Korea, South Korea, Russia, Japan, and the 
United States--and undermine them by having bilateral talks. That's what 
President Clinton did. He had bilateral talks with the North Korean, and 
guess what happened? He didn't honor the agreement. He was enriching 
uranium. That is a bad policy.
    Of course, we're paying attention to these. That's a great question 
about Iran. That's why, in my speech to the Congress, I said there is an 
axis of evil, Iraq, Iran, and North Korea, and we're paying attention to 
it, and we're making progress.
    Mr. Gibson. We're going to move on, Mr. President, with a question 
for you. And it comes from Daniel Farley.
    Mr. Farley.

Possibility of Reinstating the Draft

    Daniel Farley. Mr. President, since we continue to police the world, 
how do you intend to maintain a military presence without reinstituting 
a draft?
    President Bush. Yes, great question. Thanks.
    I hear there's rumors on the Internets that we're going to have a 
draft. We're not going to have a draft--period. The All-Volunteer Army 
works. It works particularly when we pay our troops well. It works when 
we make sure they've got housing, like we have done in the last military 
budgets. An all-volunteer army is best suited to fight the new wars of 
the 21st century, which is to be specialized and to find these people as 
they hide around the world. We don't need massed armies anymore.
    One of the things we've done is we've taken the--we're beginning to 
transform our military. And by that I mean we're moving troops out of 
Korea and replacing them with more effective weapons. We don't need as 
much manpower on the Korean Peninsula to keep a deterrent.
    In Europe, we have massed troops as if the Soviet Union existed and 
was going to invade into Europe, but those days are over with. And so 
we're moving troops out of Europe and replacing it with more effective 
equipment.
    So the answer to your question is, we're withdrawing--not from the 
world--we're drawing manpower, so they can be stationed here in America, 
so there's less rotation, so life is easier on their families and 
therefore more likely to be--we'll be more likely to keep people in the 
All-Volunteer Army.
    One of the most important things we're doing in this administration 
is transformation. There's some really interesting technologies. For 
example, we're flying unmanned vehicles that can send real-time messages 
back to stations in the United States. That saves manpower, and it saves 
equipment. It also means that we can target things easier and move more 
quickly, which means we need to be lighter and quicker and more facile 
and highly trained.
    Forget all this talk about a draft. We're not going to have a draft 
so long as I'm the President.
    Mr. Gibson. Senator Kerry, minute and a half.
    Senator Kerry. Daniel, I don't support a draft. But let me tell you 
where the President's policies have put us. The President--and this is 
one of the reasons why I'm very proud in this race to have the support 
of General John Shalikashvili, former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of 
Staff; Admiral William Crowe, former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of 
Staff; General Tony McPeak, who ran the air war for the President's 
father and did a brilliant job--supporting me; General Wes Clark, who 
won the war in Kosovo--supporting me; because they all--and General 
Baca, who was the head of the National Guard--supporting me. Why? 
Because they

[[Page 2296]]

understand that our military is overextended under this President.
    Our Guard and Reserves have been turned into almost active duty. 
You've got people doing two and three rotations. You've got stop-loss 
policies so people can't get out when they were supposed to. You've got 
a backdoor draft right now, and a lot of our military are underpaid. 
These are families that get hurt. It hurts the middle class. It hurts 
communities, because these are our first-responders, and they're called 
up, and they're over there, not over here.
    Now, I'm going to add 40,000 active duty forces to the military. And 
I'm going to make people feel good about being safe in our military and 
not overextended because I'm going to run a foreign policy that actually 
does what President Reagan did and President Eisenhower did and others. 
We're going to build alliances. We're not going to go unilaterally. 
We're not going to go alone like this President did.
    Mr. Gibson. Mr. President, let's extend for a minute.
    President Bush. Let me just--I've got to answer this.
    Mr. Gibson. Exactly. And with Reservists being held on duty and some 
soldiers----
    President Bush. Let me just answer what he just said about going 
alone.
    Mr. Gibson. I wanted to get into the issue of the backdoor draft.
    President Bush. You tell Tony Blair we're going alone. Tell Tony 
Blair we're going alone. Tell Silvio Berlusconi we're going alone. Tell 
Aleksander Kwasniewski of Poland we're going alone. We've got 30 
countries there. It denigrates an alliance to say we're going alone, to 
discount their sacrifices. You cannot lead an alliance if you say you're 
going alone. And people listen. They're sacrificing with us.
    Mr. Gibson. Senator.
    Senator Kerry. Mr. President, countries are leaving the coalition, 
not joining. Eight countries have left it. If Missouri, just given the 
number of people from Missouri who are in the military over there today, 
were a country, it would be the third largest country in the coalition, 
behind Great Britain and the United States. That's not a grand 
coalition. Ninety percent of the casualties are American. Ninety percent 
of the costs are coming out of your pockets. I could do a better job. My 
plan does a better job, and that's why I'll be a better Commander in 
Chief.
    Mr. Gibson. The next question, Senator Kerry, is for you, and it 
comes from Ann Bronsing, who I believe is over in this area.

Terrorist Attacks/Homeland Security

    Ann Bronsing. Senator Kerry, we have been fortunate that there have 
been no further terrorist attacks on American soil since 9/11. Why do 
you think this is? And if elected, what will you do to assure our 
safety?
    Senator Kerry. Thank you very much, Ann. I've asked in my security 
briefings why that is, and I can't go into all the answers, et cetera, 
but let me say this to you. This President and his administration have 
told you and all of us, ``It's not a question of when, it's a question 
of''--excuse me, ``not a question of if, it's a question of when.'' 
We've been told that. The ``when'' I can't tell you. Between the World 
Trade Center bombing in--what was it, 1993 or so--and the next time was 
5 years, 7 years. These people wait. They'll plan. They plot.
    I agree with the President that we have to go after them and get 
them wherever they are. I just think I can do that far more effectively 
because the most important weapon in doing that is intelligence. You've 
got to have the best intelligence in the world. And in order to have the 
best intelligence in the world, to know who the terrorists are and where 
they are and what they're plotting, you've got to have the best 
cooperation you've ever had in the world.
    Now, to go back to your question, Nikki, we're not getting the best 
cooperation in the world today. We've got a whole bunch of countries 
that pay a price for dealing with the United States of America now. I'm 
going to change that.
    And I'm going to put in place a better homeland security effort. 
Look at it, 95 percent of our containers coming into this country are 
not inspected today. When you get on an airplane, your cart--your bag is 
X-rayed, but the cargo hold isn't X-rayed. Do you feel safer? This 
President, in the last debate, said that, well, that would be a big tax 
gap if we did that. Ladies and gentlemen,

[[Page 2297]]

it's his tax plan. He chose a tax cut for the wealthiest Americans over 
getting that equipment out into the homeland as fast as possible. We 
have bridges and tunnels that aren't being secured; chemical plants, 
nuclear plants that aren't secured; hospitals that are overcrowded in 
their emergency rooms. If we had a disaster today, could they handle it?
    This President chose a tax cut over homeland security. Wrong choice.
    Mr. Gibson. Mr. President.
    President Bush. That's an odd thing to say since we've tripled the 
homeland security budget from 10 to 30 billion dollars. Listen, we'll do 
everything we can to protect the homeland. My opponent is right: We need 
good intelligence. It's also a curious thing for him to say, since right 
after 1993, he voted to cut the intelligence budget by $7.5 billion.
    The best way to defend America in this world we live in is to stay 
on the offense. We've got to be right 100 percent of the time here at 
home, and they've got to be right once. And that's the reality. And 
there's a lot of good people working hard. We're doing the best we 
possibly can to share information. That's why the PATRIOT Act was 
important. The PATRIOT Act is vital, by the way. It's a tool that law 
enforcement now uses to be able to talk between each other. My opponent 
says he hasn't changed his positions on it. No, but he's for weakening 
it.
    I don't think my opponent has got the right view about the world to 
make us safe. I really don't. First of all, I don't think he can succeed 
in Iraq. And if Iraq were to fail, it would be a haven for terrorists, 
and there would be money, and the world would be much more dangerous. I 
don't see how you can win in Iraq if you don't believe we should be 
there in the first place. I don't see how you can lead troops if you 
say, ``It's the wrong war at the wrong place at the wrong time.'' I 
don't see how the Iraqis are going to have confidence in the American 
President if all they hear is that it was a ``mistake'' to be there in 
the first place.
    This war is a long, long war, and it requires steadfast 
determination. And it requires a complete understanding that we not only 
chase down Al Qaida, but we disrupt terrorists' safe havens as well as 
people who could provide the terrorists with support.
    Mr. Gibson. I want to extend for a minute, Senator, and I'm curious 
about something you said. You said, ``It's not when but if.'' You think 
it's inevitable? Because the sense of security is a very basic thing 
with everybody in this country, worried about their kids.
    Senator Kerry. Well, the President and his experts have told America 
that it's not a question of if, it's a question of when. And I accept 
what the President has said. These terrorists are serious. They're 
deadly, and they know nothing except trying to kill. I understand that. 
That's why I will never stop at anything to hunt down and kill the 
terrorists.
    But you heard the President just say to you that we've added money. 
Folks, the test is not if you've added money. The test is, have you done 
everything possible to make America secure? He chose a tax cut for 
wealthy Americans over the things that I listed to you.
    Mr. Gibson. Mr. President.
    President Bush. Well, we'll talk about the tax cut for middle class 
here in a minute. But yes, I'm worried. I'm worried. I'm worried about 
our country. And all I can tell you is, every day I know that there's 
people working overtime, doing the very best they can. And the reason 
I'm worried is because there's a vicious enemy that has an ideology of 
hate. And the way to defeat them long-term, by the way, is to spread 
freedom. Liberty can change habits, and that's what's happening in 
Afghanistan and Iraq.
    Mr. Gibson. Mr. President, we're going to turn to questions now on 
domestic policy, and we're going to start with health issues. And the 
first question is for President Bush, and it's from John Horstman.

Drug Imports From Canada/Health Care

    John Horstman. Mr. President, why did you block the reimportation of 
safer and inexpensive drugs from Canada, which would have cut 40 to 60 
percent off of the cost?
    President Bush. I haven't yet. I just want to make sure they're 
safe. When a drug comes in from Canada, I want to make sure it cures you 
and doesn't kill you. And that's

[[Page 2298]]

why the FDA and that's why the Surgeon General are looking very 
carefully to make sure it can be done in a safe way. I've got an 
obligation to make sure our Government does everything we can to protect 
you. And one of--my worry is that it looks like it's from Canada, and it 
might be from a third world. We've just got to make sure, before 
somebody thinks they're buying a product, that it works. And that's why 
we're doing what we're doing. Now, it may very well be, here in 
December, you hear me say, ``I think there's a safe way to do it.''
    Other ways to make sure drugs are cheaper: One is to speed up 
generic drugs to the marketplace quicker. Pharmaceuticals were using 
loopholes to keep brand drugs in place, and generics are much less 
expensive than brand drugs. And we're doing just that. Another is to get 
our seniors to sign up for these drug discount cards, and they're 
working. Wanda Blackmore, I met here from Missouri--the first time she 
bought drugs with her drug discount card she paid $1.14, I think it was, 
for about $10 worth of drugs. These cards make sense.
    And you know, in 2006, seniors are going to get prescription drug 
coverage for the first time in Medicare, because I went to Washington to 
fix problems. Medicare--the issue of Medicare used to be called 
``Mediscare.'' People didn't want to touch it for fear of getting hurt 
politically. I wanted to get something done. I think our seniors deserve 
a modern medical system. And in 2006, our seniors will get prescription 
drug coverage.
    Thank you for asking.
    Mr. Gibson. Senator, a minute and a half.
    Senator Kerry. John, you heard the President just say that he 
thought he might try to be for it. Four years ago, right here in this 
forum, he was asked the same question, ``Can't people be able to import 
drugs from Canada?'' Do you know what he said? ``I think that makes 
sense. I think that's a good idea''--4 years ago.
    Now, the President said, ``I'm not blocking that.'' Ladies and 
gentlemen, the President just didn't level with you--right now, again. 
He did block it, because we passed it in the United States Senate. We 
sent it over to the House that you could import drugs. We took care of 
the safety issues. We're not talking about third-world drugs. We're 
talking about drugs made right here in the United States of America that 
have American brand names on them, in American bottles, and we're asking 
they be able to allow you to get them. The President blocked it.
    The President also took Medicare, which belongs to you, and he could 
have lowered the cost of Medicare and lowered your taxes and lowered the 
cost to seniors. You know what he did? He made it illegal--illegal--for 
Medicare to do what the VA does, which is bulk-purchase drugs so that 
you could lower the price and get them out to you lower. He put $139 
billion of windfall profit into the pockets of the drug companies, right 
out of your pockets.
    That's the difference between us. The President sides with the power 
companies, the oil companies, the drug companies. And I'm fighting to 
let you get those drugs from Canada, and I'm fighting to let Medicare 
survive. I'm fighting for the middle class. That's the difference.
    Mr. Gibson. Mr. President.
    President Bush. If they're safe, they're coming. I want to remind 
you that it wasn't just my administration that made the decision on 
safety. President Clinton did the same thing, because we have an 
obligation to protect you.
    Now, he talks about Medicare. He's been in the United States Senate 
20 years. Show me one accomplishment toward Medicare that he 
accomplished. I've been in Washington, DC, 3\1/2\ years and led the 
Congress to reform Medicare so our seniors have got a modern health care 
system. That's what leadership is all about.
    Senator Kerry. Actually, Mr. President, in 1997, we fixed Medicare, 
and I was one of the people involved in it. We not only fixed Medicare 
and took it way out into the future, we did something that you don't 
know how to do. We balanced the budget. And we paid down the debt of our 
Nation for 2 years in a row, and we created 23 million new jobs at the 
same time. And it's the President's fiscal policies that have driven up 
the biggest deficits in American history. He's added more debt to the 
debt of the United States in 4 years than all the way from George

[[Page 2299]]

Washington to Ronald Reagan put together. Go figure.
    Mr. Gibson. Next question is for Senator Kerry, and this comes from 
Norma-Jean Laurent.

Tort Reform

    Norma-Jean Laurent. Senator Kerry, you've stated your concern for 
the rising cost of health care. Yet you chose a Vice Presidential 
candidate who has made millions of dollars successfully suing medical 
professionals. How do you reconcile this with the voters?
    Senator Kerry. Very easily. John Edwards is the author of the 
Patients' Bill of Rights. He wanted to give people rights. John Edwards 
and I support tort reform. We both believe that as lawyers--I'm a lawyer 
too--and I believe that we will be able to get a fix that has eluded 
everybody else, because we know how to do it. It's in my health care 
proposal. Go to johnkerry.com--you can pull it off the Internet--and 
you'll find a tort reform plan.
    Now, ladies and gentlemen, important to understand, the President 
and his friends try to make a big deal out of it. Is it a problem? Yes, 
it's a problem. Do we need to fix it, particularly for ob-gyns * and for 
brain surgeons and others? Yes. But it's less than one percent of the 
total cost of health care. Your premiums are going up. You've gone up in 
Missouri about $3,500. You've gone up 64 percent. You've seen co-pays go 
up, deductibles go up. Everything has gone up. Five million people have 
lost their health insurance under this President, and he's done nothing 
about it.
    * White House correction.
    I have a plan. I have a plan to lower the cost of health care for 
you. I have a plan to cover all children. I have a plan to let you buy 
into the same health care Senators and Congressmen give themselves. I 
have a plan that's going to allow people 55 to 64 to buy into Medicare 
early. And I have a plan that will take the catastrophic cases out of 
the system, off your backs, pay for it out of a Federal fund, which 
lowers the premiums for everybody in America, makes American business 
more competitive, and makes health care more affordable.
    Now, all of that can happen, but I have to ask you to do one thing. 
Join me in rolling back the President's unaffordable tax cut for people 
earning more than $200,000 a year. That's all. Ninety-eight percent of 
America, I'm giving you a tax cut, and I'm giving you health care.
    Mr. Gibson. Mr. President, a minute and a half.
    President Bush. Let me see where to start here. First, the National 
Journal named Senator Kerry * the most liberal Senator of all. And 
that's saying something in that bunch. You might say that took a lot of 
hard work.
    * White House correction.
    The reason I bring that up is because he's proposed $2.2 trillion in 
new spending and he says he's going to tax the rich to close the tax 
gap. He can't. He's going to tax everybody here to fund his programs. 
That's just reality.
    And what are his health programs? First, he says he's for medical 
liability reform, particularly for ob-gyns. There was a bill on the 
floor of the United States Senate that he could have showed up and voted 
for if he's so much for it. Secondly, he says that medical liability 
costs only cause one percent increase. That shows a lack of 
understanding. Doctors practice defensive medicine because of all the 
frivolous lawsuits that cost our Government $28 billion a year.
    And finally, he says he's going to have a novel health care plan. 
You know what it is? The Federal Government is going to run it. It is 
the largest increase in Federal Government health care ever, and it fits 
with his philosophy. That's why I told you about the award he won from 
the National Journal. That's what liberals do: They create Government-
sponsored health care. Maybe you think that makes sense. I don't. 
Government-sponsored health care would lead to rationing. It would ruin 
the quality of health care in America.
    Mr. Gibson. Senator Kerry, we got several questions along this line, 
and I'm just curious if you'd go further on what you talked about with 
tort reform. Would you be favoring capping awards on pain and suffering? 
Would

[[Page 2300]]

you limit attorneys' fees--yes, to follow up on this for a minute. 
Thirty seconds.
    Senator Kerry. Yes, I think we should look at the punitive, and we 
should have some limitations. But look, what's really important, 
Charlie, is the President's just trying to scare everybody here with 
throwing labels around. I mean, ``compassionate conservative,'' what 
does that mean? Cutting 500,000 kids from after-school programs? Cutting 
365,000 kids from health care? Running up the biggest deficits in 
American history? Mr. President, you're batting 0 for 2. I mean, 
seriously, labels don't mean anything. What means something is do you 
have a plan, and I want to talk about my plan some more. I hope we can.
    Mr. Gibson. We'll get to that in just a minute. Thirty seconds.
    President Bush. What does matter is the plan. He said he is for--
you're now for capping punitive damages? That's odd. You should have 
shown up on the floor in the Senate and voted for it then. Medical 
liability issues are a problem, a significant problem. He's been in the 
United States Senate for 20 years, and he hasn't addressed it. We passed 
it out of the House of Representatives. Guess where it stuck? It stuck 
in the Senate because the trial lawyers won't act on it, and he put a 
trial lawyer on the ticket.
    Mr. Gibson. The next question is for President Bush, and it comes 
from Matthew O'Brien.

Federal Deficit

    Matthew O'Brien. Mr. President, you have enjoyed a Republican 
majority in the House and Senate for most of your Presidency. In that 
time, you've not vetoed a single spending bill. Excluding 120 billion 
spent in Iran and Afghan--I'm sorry, Iraq and Afghanistan, there has 
been $700 billion spent and not paid for by taxes. Please explain how 
the spending you have approved and not paid for is better for the 
American people than the spending proposed by your opponent.
    President Bush. Right. Thank you for that. We have a deficit. We 
have a deficit because this country went into a recession. You might 
remember the stock market started to decline dramatically 6 months 
before I came to office, and then the bubble of the 1990s popped. And 
that cost us revenue--that cost us revenue.
    Secondly, we're at war. And I'm going to spend what it takes to win 
the war, more than just 120 billion for Iraq and Afghanistan. We've got 
to pay our troops more. We have. We've increased money for ammunition 
and weapons and pay and homeland security. I just told this lady over 
here we spent--went from 10 to 30 billion dollars to protect the 
homeland. I think we have an obligation to spend that kind of money.
    Plus, we cut taxes for everybody. Everybody got tax relief, so that 
they'd get out of the recession. I think if you raise taxes during a 
recession, you head to depression. I come from the school of thought 
that says when people have more money in their pocket during tough 
economic times, it increases demand or investment. Small businesses 
begin to grow, and jobs are added. We found out today that over the past 
13 months, we've added 1.9 million new jobs in the last 13 months. I 
proposed a plan, detailed budget, that shows us cutting the deficit in 
half by 5 years.
    And you're right, I haven't vetoed any spending bills because we 
worked together. Non-homeland, non-defense, discretionary spending was 
rising at 15 percent a year when I got into office. And today, it's less 
than one percent, because we're working together to try to bring this 
deficit under control. Like you, I'm concerned about the deficit. But I 
am not going to shortchange our troops in harm's way. And I'm not going 
to run up taxes which will cost this economy jobs.
    Thank you for your question.
    Mr. Gibson. Senator Kerry, a minute and a half.
    Senator Kerry. Let me begin by saying that my health care plan is 
not what the President described. It is not a Government takeover. You 
have choice: Choose your doctor; choose your plan. The Government has 
nothing to do with it. In fact, it doesn't ask you to do anything. If 
you don't want to take it, you don't have to. If you like your high 
premiums, you keep them. That's the way we leave it.
    Now, with respect to the deficit, the President was handed a $5.6 
trillion surplus, ladies

[[Page 2301]]

and gentlemen. That's where he was when he came into office. We now have 
a $2.6 trillion deficit. This is the biggest turnaround in the history 
of the country. He's the first President in 72 years to lose jobs. He 
talked about war. This is the first time the United States of America 
has ever had a tax cut when we're at war. Franklin Roosevelt, Harry 
Truman, others knew how to lead. They knew how to ask the American 
people for the right things.
    One percent of America--the highest one percent of income earners in 
America got $89 billion of tax cut last year. One percent of America got 
more than the 80 percent of America that earned from $100,000 down. The 
President thinks it's more important to fight for that top one percent 
than to fight for fiscal responsibility and to fight for you.
    I want to put money in your pocket. I am--I have a proposal for a 
tax cut for all people earning less than the $200,000. The only people 
affected in my plan are the top income earners of America.
    Mr. Gibson. I both--I heard you both say--I have heard you both say 
during the campaign, and I just heard you say it--that you're going to 
cut the deficit by a half in 4 years. But I didn't hear one thing in the 
last 3\1/2\ minutes that would indicate how either one of you do that.
    President Bush. Look at the budget. One is, make sure Congress 
doesn't overspend. But let me talk back about where we've been. The 
stock market was declining 6 months prior to my arrival. It was the 
largest stock market correction--one of the largest in history, which 
foretold a recession. Because we cut taxes on everybody--remember, we 
ran up the child credit by 1,000; we reduced the marriage penalty; we 
created the 10-percent bracket; everybody who pays taxes got relief--the 
recession was one of the shortest in our Nation's history.
    Mr. Gibson. Senator Kerry, 30 seconds.
    Senator Kerry. After 9/11, after the recession had ended, the 
President asked for another tax cut and promised 5.6 million jobs would 
be created. He lost 1.6 million, ladies and gentlemen, and most of that 
tax cut went to the wealthiest people in the country. He came and asked 
for a tax cut; we wanted a tax cut to kick the economy into gear. Do you 
know what he presented us with? A $25 billion giveaway to the biggest 
corporations in America, including a $254 million refund check to Enron. 
Wrong priorities. You are my priority.
    Mr. Gibson. Senator Kerry, the next question will be for you, and it 
comes from James Varner, who I believe is in this section. Mr. Varner? 
You need a microphone.

Taxes

    James Varner. Thank you. Senator Kerry, would you be willing to look 
directly into the camera and, using simple and unequivocal language, 
give the American people your solemn pledge not to sign any legislation 
that will increase the tax burden on families earning less than $200,000 
a year during your first term?
    Senator Kerry. Absolutely. Yes. Right into the camera--yes. I am not 
going to raise taxes. I have a tax cut, and here's my tax cut. I raise 
the child care credit by $1,000 for families to help them be able to 
take care of their kids. I have a $4,000 tuition tax credit that goes to 
parents and kids, if they're earning for themselves, to be able to pay 
for college. And I lower the cost of health care in the way that I 
described to you.
    Every part of my program, I've shown how I'm going to pay for it. 
And I've gotten good people, like former Secretary of the Treasury Bob 
Rubin for instance, who showed how to balance budgets and give you a 
good economy, to help me crunch these numbers and make them work. I've 
even scaled back some of my favorite programs already, like the child 
care program I wanted to fund and the national service program, because 
the President's deficit keeps growing. And I've said, as a pledge, I'm 
going to cut the deficit in half in 4 years.
    Now, I'm going to restore what we did in the 1990s, ladies and 
gentlemen: Pay as you go. We're going to do it like you do it. The 
President broke the pay-as-you-go rule. Somebody here asked the question 
about why haven't you vetoed something. It's a good question. If you 
care about it, why don't you veto it? I think John McCain called the 
energy bill the no lobbyist left behind bill. I mean, you've got to 
stand up and fight somewhere, folks.

[[Page 2302]]

    I'm pledging I will not raise taxes. I'm giving a tax cut to the 
people earning less than $200,000 a year. Now, for the people earning 
more than $200,000 a year, you are going to see a rollback to the level 
we were at with Bill Clinton, when people made a lot of money. And 
looking around here at this group here, I suspect there are only three 
people here who are going to be affected: the President, me, and 
Charlie, I'm sorry, you too. [Laughter]
    Mr. Gibson. Mr. President, 90 seconds.
    President Bush. It's just not credible. When he talks about being 
fiscally conservative, it's just not credible. If you look at his record 
in the Senate, he voted to break the spending--the caps, the spending 
caps, over 200 times, and here he says he's going to be a fiscal 
conservative all of a sudden. It's just not credible. You cannot believe 
it.
    And of course he's going to raise your taxes. You see, he's proposed 
$2.2 trillion of new spending. And so they said, ``Well, how are you 
going to pay for it?'' He said, well, he's going to raise the taxes on 
the rich. That's what he said, the top two brackets. That raises--he 
says 800 billion; we say 600 billion. We've got battling green 
eyeshades--somewhere in between those numbers. And so there is a 
difference, what he's promised and what he could raise. Now, either he's 
going to break all these wonderful promises he's told you about, or he's 
going to raise taxes. And I suspect, given his record, he's going to 
raise taxes.
    Is my time up yet?
    Mr. Gibson. No, you can keep going.
    President Bush. Keep going, good. [Laughter]
    Mr. Gibson. You're on----
    President Bush. You looked at me like my clock was up.
    I think that the way to grow this economy is to keep taxes low, is 
to have an energy plan, is to have litigation reform. As I told you, we 
just got a report that said over the past 13 months, we've created 1.9 
million new jobs. We're growing. And so the fundamental question of this 
campaign is, who's going to keep the economy growing so people can work? 
That's the fundamental question.
    Mr. Gibson. I'm going to come back one more time to how these 
numbers add up and how you can cut that deficit in half in 4 years, 
given what you've both said.
    Senator Kerry. Well, first of all, the President's figures of 2.2 
trillion just aren't accurate. Those are the fuzzy math figures put 
together by some group that works for the campaign. That's not the 
number.
    Number two, John McCain and I have a proposal, jointly, for a 
commission that closes corporate giveaway loopholes. We've got $40 
billion going to Bermuda. We've got all kinds of giveaways. We ought to 
be shutting those down.
    And third, credible? Ladies and gentlemen, in 1985, I was one of the 
first Democrats to move to balance the budget. I voted for the balanced 
budget in '93 and '97. We did it. We did it, and I was there.
    Mr. Gibson. Thirty seconds--I'm sorry, thirty seconds, Mr. 
President.
    President Bush. Yes, I mean, he's got a record. He's been there for 
20 years. You can run, but you can't hide. He voted 98 times to raise 
taxes. I mean, these aren't make-up figures. And so people are going to 
have to look at the record--look at the record of the man running for 
the President. They don't name him the most liberal in the United States 
Senate because he hasn't shown up to many meetings. They named him 
because of his votes, and it's reality. It's just not credible to say 
he's going to keep taxes down and balance budgets.
    Mr. Gibson. Mr. President, the next question is for you, and it 
comes from James Hubb, over here.

Action on the Environment/Kyoto Protocol to the United Nations Framework 
Convention on Climate Change

    James Hubb. Mr. President, how would you rate yourself as an 
environmentalist? What specifically has your administration done to 
improve the condition of our Nation's air and water supply?
    President Bush. Off-road diesel engines--we have reached an 
agreement to reduce pollution from off-road diesel engines by 90 
percent. I've got a plan to increase the

[[Page 2303]]

wetlands by 3 million. We've got an aggressive brownfield program to 
refurbish inner-city sore spots to useful pieces of property.
    I proposed to the United States Congress a Clear Skies Initiative to 
reduce sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxide, and mercury by 70 percent. I 
was--fought for a very strong title in the farm bill for the 
Conservation Reserve Program to set aside millions of acres of land 
for--to help improve wildlife in the habitat.
    We proposed and passed a Healthy Forests bill, which was essential 
to working with--particularly in western States, to make sure that our 
forests were protected. What happens in those forests, because of lousy 
Federal policy, is they grow to be--they are not--they're not harvested. 
They're not taken care of, and as a result, they're like tinder boxes. 
And over the last summers I've flown over there. And so this is a 
reasonable policy to protect old stands of trees and, at the same time, 
make sure our forests aren't vulnerable to the forest fires that have 
destroyed acres after acres in the West. We've got a good, commonsense 
policy.
    Now, I'm going to tell you what I really think is going to happen 
over time, is technology is going to change the way we live, for the 
good, for the environment. So I proposed a hydrogen automobile, a 
hydrogen-generated automobile. We're spending a billion dollars to come 
up with the technologies to do that.
    That's why I'm a big proponent of clean coal technology, to make 
sure we can use coal but in a clean way. I guess you'd say I'm a good 
steward of the land. The quality of the air is cleaner since I've been 
the President; fewer water complaints since I've been the President; 
more land being restored since I've been the President.
    Thank you for your question.
    Mr. Gibson. Senator Kerry, a minute and a half.
    Senator Kerry. Boy, to listen to that, the President I don't think 
is living in a world of reality with respect to the environment. Now, if 
you're a Red Sox fan, that's okay. But if you're a President, it's not. 
Let me just say to you, number one, don't throw the labels around. 
Labels don't mean anything. I supported welfare reform. I led the fight 
to put 100,000 cops on the streets of America. I've been for faith-based 
initiatives helping to intervene in the lives of young children for 
years. I was--broke with my party in 1985, one of the first three 
Democrats to fight for a balanced budget when it was heresy. Labels 
don't fit, ladies and gentlemen.
    Now, when it comes to the issue of the environment, this is one of 
the worst administrations in modern history. The Clear Skies bill that 
he just talked about--it's one of those Orwellian names you pull out of 
the sky, slap it onto something--like No Child Left Behind, but you 
leave millions of children behind. Here they're leaving the skies and 
the environment behind.
    If they just left the Clean Air Act all alone the way it is today, 
no change, the air would be cleaner than it is if you pass the cleaner 
skies act. We're going backwards. In fact, his environmental enforcement 
chief air quality person at the EPA resigned in protest over what 
they're doing to what are called the New Source Performance Standards 
for air quality. They're going backwards on the definition for wetlands. 
They're going backwards on the water quality. They pulled out of the 
global warming, declared it dead; didn't even accept the science. I'm 
going to be a President who believes in science.
    Mr. Gibson. Mr. President?
    President Bush. Well, had we joined the Kyoto treaty, which I guess 
he's referring to, it would have cost America a lot of jobs. It's one of 
these deals where in order to be popular in the halls of Europe, you 
sign a treaty. But I thought it would cost a lot of--I think there's a 
better way to do it. And I just told you the facts, sir. The quality of 
the air is cleaner since I've been the President of the United States. 
And we'll continue to spend money on research and development because I 
truly believe that's the way to get from how we live today to being able 
to live a standard of living that we're accustomed to and being able to 
protect our environment better--the use of technologies.
    Mr. Gibson. Senator Kerry, 30 seconds.
    Senator Kerry. The fact is that the Kyoto treaty was flawed. I was 
in Kyoto, and I was part of that. I know what happened. But this 
President didn't try to fix it. He just declared it dead, ladies and 
gentlemen, and we walked away from the work of 160 nations over 10

[[Page 2304]]

years. You wonder, Nikki, why it is that people don't like us in some 
parts of the world. You just say, ``Hey, we don't agree with you. 
Goodbye.'' The President has done nothing to try to fix it. I will.
    Mr. Gibson. Senator Kerry, the next question is for you. It involves 
jobs, which is a topic in the news today. And for the question, we're 
going to turn to Jane Barrow.

Trade Competitiveness/Jobs/Taxes

    Jane Barrow. Senator Kerry, how can the U.S. be competitive in a 
manufacturing given----in manufacturing, excuse me, given the wage 
necessary and comfortably accepted for American workers to maintain the 
standard of living that they expect?
    Senator Kerry. Jane, there are a lot of ways to be competitive. And 
unfortunately, again, I regret, this administration has not seized them 
and embraced them. Let me give you an example. There's a tax loophole 
right now--if you're a company in St. Louis working, trying to make jobs 
here, there's actually an incentive for you to go away. You get more 
money--you can keep more of your taxes by going abroad. I'm going to 
shut that loophole, and I'm going to give the tax benefit to the 
companies that stay here in America to help make them more competitive.
    Secondly, we're going to create a manufacturing jobs credit and a 
new jobs credit for people to be able to help hire and be more 
competitive here in America.
    Third, what's really hurting American business, more than anything 
else, is the cost of health care. Now, you didn't hear any plan from the 
President, because he doesn't have a plan to lower the cost of health 
care. Five million Americans have lost their health care; 620,000 
Missourians have no health care at all; 96,000 Missourians have lost 
their health care under President Bush.
    I have a plan to cover those folks, and it's a plan that lowers 
costs for everybody, covers all children. And the way I pay for it--I'm 
not fiscally irresponsible--is I roll back the tax cut that this 
President so fiercely wants to defend, the one for him and me and 
Charlie. I think you ought to get the break. I want to lower your cost 
of health care.
    I want to fully fund education, No Child Left Behind, special needs 
education. And that's how we're going to be more competitive, by making 
sure our kids are graduating from school and college. China and India 
are graduating more graduates in technology and science than we are. 
We've got to create the products of the future.
    That's why I have a plan for energy independence within 10 years. 
And we're going to put our laboratories and our colleges and 
universities to work, and we're going to get the great entrepreneurial 
spirit of this country, and we're going to free ourselves from this 
dependency on Mideast oil. That's how you create jobs and become 
competitive.
    Mr. Gibson. Mr. President, minute and a half.
    President Bush. Let me start with how to control the costs of health 
care: Medical liability reform, for starters, which he's opposed. 
Secondly, allow small businesses to pool together so they can share risk 
and buy insurance at the same discounts big businesses get to do. 
Thirdly, spread what's called health savings accounts. It's good for 
small businesses, good for owners. You own your own account. You can 
save tax-free. You get a catastrophic plan to help you--own it. This is 
different from saying, ``Okay, let me incent you to go on the 
Government.''
    He's talking about his plan to keep jobs here. You know, he calls it 
an outsourcing--to keep--stop outsourcing. Robert Rubin looked at his 
plan and said it won't work. The best way to keep jobs here in America 
is, one, have an energy plan. I proposed one to the Congress 2 years 
ago. It encourages conservation, encourages technology to explore for 
environmentally friendly ways for coal and use coal and gas. It 
encourages the use of renewables like ethanol and biodiesel. It's stuck 
in the Senate. He and his runningmate didn't show up to vote when they 
could have got it going in the Senate. Less regulations if we want jobs 
here. Legal reform if we want jobs here. And we've got to keep taxes 
low.
    Now, he says he's only going to tax the rich. Do you realize 900,000 
small businesses will be taxed under his plan because most small 
businesses are Subchapter S corps or limited partnerships, and they pay 
tax at the individual income-tax level. And so when you're running up 
the taxes like that, you're

[[Page 2305]]

taxing job creators, and that's not how you keep jobs here.
    Mr. Gibson. Senator, I want to extend for a minute. You talk about 
tax credits to stop outsourcing. But when you have IBM documents that I 
saw recently, where you can hire a programmer for $12 in China, $56 an 
hour here, tax credits won't cut it in that area.
    Senator Kerry. You can't stop all outsourcing, Charlie. I've never 
promised that. I'm not going to, because that would be pandering. You 
can't. But what you can do is create a fair playing field, and that's 
what I'm talking about.
    But let me just address what the President just said. Ladies and 
gentlemen, that's just not true, what he said. The Wall Street Journal 
said 96 percent of small businesses are not affected at all by my plan. 
And you know why he gets that count? The President got $84 from a timber 
company that he owns, and he's counted as a small business. Dick Cheney 
is counted as a small business. That's how they do things. That's just 
not right.
    President Bush. I own a timber company? That's news to me. 
[Laughter] Need some wood? [Laughter]
    Most small businesses are Subchapter S corps. They just are. I met 
Grant Milliron, Mansfield, Ohio. He's creating jobs. Most small 
businesses--70 percent of the new jobs in America are created by small 
business. His taxes are going up when you run up the top two brackets. 
It's a fact.
    Mr. Gibson. President Bush, the next question is for you, and it 
comes from Rob Fowler, who I believe is over in this area.

PATRIOT Act

    Rob Fowler. President Bush, 45 days after 9/11, Congress passed the 
PATRIOT Act, which takes away checks on law enforcement and weakens 
American citizens' rights and freedoms, especially Fourth Amendment 
rights. With expansions of the PATRIOT Act and PATRIOT Act II, my 
question to you is, why are my rights being watered down and my citizens 
around me, and what are the specific justifications for these reforms?
    President Bush. Yes, I appreciate that. I really don't think your 
rights are being watered down. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't support 
it if I thought that. Every action being taken against terrorists 
requires a court order, requires scrutiny. As a matter of fact, the 
tools now given to the terrorist fighters are the same tools that we've 
been using against drug dealers and white-collar criminals. So I really 
don't think so. I hope you don't think that. I mean, I--because I think 
whoever is the President must guard your liberties, must not erode your 
rights in America.
    The PATRIOT Act is necessary, for example, because parts of the FBI 
couldn't talk to each other. Intelligence gathering and the law 
enforcement arms of the FBI just couldn't share intelligence under the 
old law, and that didn't make any sense. Our law enforcement must have 
every tool necessary to find and disrupt terrorists at home and abroad 
before they hurt us again. That's the task of the 21st century.
    And so I don't think the PATRIOT Act abridges your rights at all, 
and I know it's necessary. I can remember being in upstate New York 
talking to FBI agents that helped bust the Lackawanna cell up there. And 
they told me they could not have performed their duty, the duty we all 
expect of them, if they did not have the ability to communicate with 
each other under the PATRIOT Act.
    Mr. Gibson. Senator Kerry, a minute and a half.
    Senator Kerry. Former Governor Racicot, as chairman of the 
Republican Party, said he thought that the PATRIOT Act has to be changed 
and fixed. Congressman Jim Sensenbrenner--he's the chairman of the House 
Judiciary Committee--has said over his dead body before it gets renewed 
without being thoroughly rechecked. Whole bunch of folks in America 
concerned about the way the PATRIOT Act has been applied.
    In fact, the Inspector General of the Justice Department found that 
John Ashcroft had twice applied it in ways that were inappropriate. 
People's rights have been abused. I met a man who spent 8 months in 
prison, wasn't even allowed to call his lawyer, wasn't allowed to--
finally, Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois intervened and was able to get 
him out. This is in our country, folks, the United States of America. 
They've got sneak-and-peak searches that are allowed. They've got people 
allowed to go into churches now and

[[Page 2306]]

political meetings, without any showing of potential criminal activity 
or otherwise.
    Now, I voted for the PATRIOT Act. Ninety-nine United States Senators 
voted for it. And the President has been very busy running around the 
country using what I just described to you as a reason to say I'm wishy-
washy, that I'm a flip-flopper. Now, that's not a flip-flop. I believe 
in the PATRIOT Act. We need the things in it that coordinate the FBI and 
the CIA. We need to be stronger on terrorism. But you know what we also 
need to do as Americans is never let the terrorists change the 
Constitution of the United States in a way that disadvantages our 
rights.
    Mr. Gibson. Senator Kerry, the next question is for you, and it 
comes from Elizabeth Long.

Embryonic Stem Cell Research

    Elizabeth Long. Senator Kerry, thousands of people have already been 
cured or treated by the use of adult stem cells or umbilical cord stem 
cells. However, no one has been cured by using embryonic stem cells. 
Wouldn't it be wise to use stem cells obtained without the destruction 
of an embryo?
    Senator Kerry. You know, Elizabeth, I really respect your--the 
feeling that's in your question. I understand it. I know the morality 
that's prompting that question, and I respect it enormously. But like 
Nancy Reagan and so many other people--you know, I was at a forum with 
Michael J. Fox the other day in New Hampshire, who's suffering from 
Parkinson's, and he wants us to do stem cell--embryonic stem cell. And 
this fellow stood up, and he was quivering. His whole body was shaking 
from the nerve disease, the muscular disease that he had, and he said to 
me and to the whole hall, he said, you know, ``Don't take away my hope 
because my hope is what keeps me going.'' Chris Reeve is a friend of 
mine. Chris Reeve exercises every single day to keep those muscles alive 
for the day when he believes he can walk again, and I want him to walk 
again.
    I think we can save lives. Now, I think we can do ethically guided 
embryonic stem cell research. We have 100,000 to 200,000 embryos that 
are frozen in nitrogen today from fertility clinics. These weren't taken 
from abortion or something like that. They're from a fertility clinic, 
and they're either going to be destroyed or left frozen. And I believe 
if we have the option, which scientists tell us we do, of curing 
Parkinson's, curing diabetes, curing some kind of a paraplegic or 
quadriplegic or a spinal cord injury, anything--that's the nature of the 
human spirit. I think it is respecting life to reach for that cure. I 
think it is respecting life to do it in an ethical way.
    And the President's chosen a policy that makes it impossible for our 
scientists to do that. I want the future, and I think we have to grab 
it.
    Mr. Gibson. Mr. President, a minute and a half.
    President Bush. Embryonic stem cell research requires the 
destruction of life to create a stem cell. I'm the first President ever 
to allow funding, Federal funding, for embryonic stem cell research. I 
did so because I too hope that we'll discover cures from the stem cells 
and from the research derived.
    But I think we've got to be very careful in balancing the ethics and 
the science. And so I made the decision we wouldn't spend any more money 
beyond the 70 lines, 22 of which are now in action, because science is 
important but so is ethics, so is balancing life. To destroy life to 
save life is one of the real ethical dilemmas that we face.
    There is going to be hundreds of experiments off the 22 lines that 
now exist, that are active, and hopefully we find a cure. But as well we 
need to continue to pursue adult stem cell research. I helped double the 
NIH budget to $28 billion a year to find cures. And the approach I took 
is one that I think is a balanced and necessary approach, to balance 
science and the concerns for life.
    Mr. Gibson. Senator, thirty seconds, let's extend.
    Senator Kerry. When you talk about walking a waffle line, he says 
he's allowed it, which means he's going to allow the destruction of life 
up to a certain amount, and then he isn't going to allow it. Now, I 
don't know how you draw that line. But let me tell you pointblank, the 
lines of stem cells that he's made available, every scientist in the 
country will tell you, ``Not adequate,'' because they're contaminated by 
mouse cells and because there aren't 60 or 70; there are

[[Page 2307]]

only about 11 to 20 now, and there aren't enough to be able to do the 
research because they're contaminated.
    We've got to open up the possibilities of this research. And when I 
am President, I'm going to do it, because we have to.
    Mr. Gibson. Mr. President.
    President Bush. Let me make sure you understand my decision. Those 
stem cell lines already existed. The embryo had already been destroyed 
prior to my decision. I had to make the decision: Do we destroy more 
life; do we continue to destroy life? I made the decision to balance 
science and ethics.
    Mr. Gibson. Mr. President, the next question is for you, and it 
comes from Jonathan Michaelson.

Supreme Court

    Jonathan Michaelson. Mr. President, if there were a vacancy in the 
Supreme Court and you had the opportunity to fill that position today, 
who would you choose, and why?
    President Bush. I'm not telling. [Laughter] I really don't have--I 
haven't picked anybody yet. Plus, I want them all voting for me. 
[Laughter] I would pick somebody who would not allow their personal 
opinion to get in the way of the law. I would pick somebody who would 
strictly interpret the Constitution of the United States.
    Let me give you a couple of examples, I guess, of the kind of person 
I wouldn't pick. I wouldn't pick a judge who said that the Pledge of 
Allegiance couldn't be said in a school because it had the words ``under 
God'' in it. I think that's an example of a judge allowing personal 
opinion to enter into the decisionmaking process, as opposed to strict 
interpretation of the Constitution.
    Another example would be the Dred Scott case, which is where judges 
years ago said that the Constitution allowed slavery because of personal 
property rights. That's personal opinion. That's not what the 
Constitution says. The Constitution of the United States says we're 
all--it doesn't say that. It doesn't speak to the equality of America.
    And so I would pick people that would be strict constructionists. 
We've got plenty of lawmakers in Washington, DC. Legislators make law. 
Judges interpret the Constitution. And I suspect one of us will have a 
pick at the end of next year--next 4 years. And that's the kind of judge 
I'm going to put on there--no litmus test except for how they interpret 
the Constitution.
    Mr. Gibson. Senator Kerry, a minute and a half.
    Senator Kerry. Thank you, Charlie. A few years ago, when he came to 
office, the President said--these are his words--``What we need are some 
good conservative judges on the courts.'' And he said also that his two 
favorite Justices are Justice Scalia and Justice Thomas. So you get a 
pretty good sense of where he's heading if he were to appoint somebody.
    Now, here's what I believe. I don't believe we need a good 
conservative judge, and I don't believe we need a good liberal judge. I 
don't believe we need a good judge of that kind of definition on either 
side. I subscribe to the Justice Potter Stewart standard. He was a 
Justice on the Supreme Court of the United States, and he said the mark 
of a good judge, a good Justice, is that when you're reading their 
decision, their opinion, you can't tell if it's written by a man or a 
woman, a liberal or a conservative, a Muslim, a Jew, or a Christian. You 
just know you're reading a good judicial decision.
    What I want to find, if I'm privileged to have the opportunity to do 
it--and the Supreme Court of the United States is at stake in this race, 
ladies and gentlemen, the future of things that matter to you in terms 
of civil rights, what kind of Justice Department you'll have, whether 
we'll enforce the law, will we have equal opportunity, will women's 
rights be protected, will we have equal pay for women, which is going 
backwards, will a woman's right to choose be protected. These are 
constitutional rights, and I want to make sure we have judges who 
interpret the Constitution of the United States according to the law.
    Mr. Gibson. Going to go to the final two questions, now. And the 
first one will be for Senator Kerry, and this comes from Sarah 
Degenhart.

Federal Funding of Abortions

    Sarah Degenhart. Senator Kerry, suppose you are speaking with a 
voter who believed abortion is murder, and the voter

[[Page 2308]]

asked for reassurance that his or her tax dollars would not go to 
support abortion. What would you say to that person?
    Senator Kerry. I would say to that person exactly what I will say to 
you right now. First of all, I cannot tell you how deeply I respect the 
belief about life and when it begins. I'm a Catholic, raised a Catholic. 
I was an altar boy. Religion has been a huge part of my life. It helped 
lead me through a war, leads me today. But I can't take what is an 
article of faith for me and legislate it for someone who doesn't share 
that article of faith, whether they be agnostic, atheist, Jew, 
Protestant, whatever. I can't do that.
    But I can counsel people. I can talk reasonably about life and about 
responsibility. I can talk to people, as my wife, Teresa, does, about 
making other choices and about abstinence and about all these other 
things that we ought to do as a responsible society. But as a President, 
I have to represent all the people in the Nation, and I have to make 
that judgment.
    Now, I believe that you can take that position and not be pro-
abortion. But you have to afford people their constitutional rights. And 
that means being smart about allowing people to be fully educated, to 
know what their options are in life, and making certain that you don't 
deny a poor person the right to be able to have whatever the 
Constitution affords them if they can't afford it otherwise.
    That's why I think it's important. That's why I think it's important 
for the United States, for instance, not to have this rigid ideological 
restriction on helping families around the world to be able to make a 
smart decision about family planning. You'll help prevent AIDS. You'll 
help prevent unwanted children, unwanted pregnancies. You'll actually do 
a better job, I think, of passing on the moral responsibility that is 
expressed in your question, and I truly respect it.
    Mr. Gibson. Mr. President, a minute and a half.
    President Bush. Trying to decipher that. [Laughter] My answer is 
we're not going to spend Federal taxpayers' money on abortion. This is 
an issue that divides America, but certainly reasonable people can agree 
on how to reduce abortions in America. I signed the ban on partial-birth 
abortion. It's a brutal practice. It's one way to help reduce abortions. 
My opponent voted against the ban. I think there ought to be parental 
notification laws. He's against them. I signed a bill called the Unborn 
Victims of Violence Act. In other words, if you're a mom and you're 
pregnant, you get killed, the murderer gets tried for two cases, not 
just one. My opponent was against that. These are reasonable ways to 
help promote a culture of life in America.
    I think it is a worthy goal in America to have every child protected 
by law and welcomed in life. I also think we ought to continue to have 
good adoption law as an alternative to abortion. And we need to promote 
maternity group homes, which my administration has done. Culture of life 
is really important for a country to have if it's going to be a 
hospitable society.
    Thank you.
    Mr. Gibson. Senator, do you want to follow up? Thirty seconds.
    Senator Kerry. Well, again, the President just said categorically, 
``My opponent is against this. My opponent is against that.'' It's just 
not that simple. No, I'm not. I'm against the partial-birth abortion, 
but you've got to have an exception for the life of the mother and the 
health of the mother under the strictest test of bodily injury to the 
mother. Secondly, with respect to parental notification, I'm not going 
to require a 16- or 17-year old kid who's been raped by her father and 
who's pregnant to have to notify her father. So you've got to have a 
judicial intervention. And because they didn't have a judicial 
intervention where she could go somewhere and get help, I voted against 
it. It's never quite as simple as the President wants you to believe.
    Mr. Gibson. And 30 seconds, Mr. President.
    President Bush. It's pretty simple when they say, ``Are you for a 
ban on partial-birth abortion? Yes or no.'' And he was given a chance to 
vote, and he voted no. And that's just the way it is. That's a vote. It 
came right up. It's clear for everybody to see. And as I said, you can 
run, but you can't hide. It's the reality.
    Mr. Gibson. And the final question of the evening will be addressed 
to President Bush,

[[Page 2309]]

and it will come from Linda Grabel. Linda Grabel is over here.
    President Bush. Put a head fake on.
    Mr. Gibson. I got faked out, myself. [Laughter]

Presidential Decisionmaking/Funding U.S. Troops

    Linda Grabel. President Bush, during the last 4 years, you have made 
thousands of decisions that have affected millions of lives. Please give 
three instances in which you came to realize you had made a wrong 
decision, and what you did to correct it. Thank you.
    President Bush. I have made a lot of decisions, some of them little, 
like appointments to a board you've never heard of, and some of them 
big. And in a war, there's a lot of tactical decisions that historians 
will look back and say, ``You shouldn't have done that. You shouldn't 
have made that decision.'' And I'll take responsibility for them. I'm 
human.
    But on the big questions about whether or not we should have gone 
into Afghanistan, the big question about whether we should have removed 
somebody in Iraq, I'll stand by those decisions because I think they're 
right. That's really what you're--when they ask about the mistakes, 
that's what they're talking about. They're trying to say, ``Did you make 
a mistake going into Iraq?'' And the answer is absolutely not. It was 
the right decision.
    The Duelfer report confirmed that decision today, because what 
Saddam Hussein was doing was trying to get rid of sanctions so he could 
reconstitute a weapons program, and the biggest threat facing America is 
terrorists with weapons of mass destruction. We knew he hated us. We 
knew he had been a--invaded other countries. We knew he tortured his own 
people.
    On the tax cut, it's a big decision. I did the right decision. Our 
recession was one of the shallowest in modern history.
    Now, you ask what mistakes--I made some mistakes in appointing 
people, but I'm not going to name them. I don't want to hurt their 
feelings on national TV. But history will look back, and I'm fully 
prepared to accept any mistakes that history judges to my 
administration. Because the President makes the decisions, the President 
has to take the responsibility.
    Mr. Gibson. Senator Kerry, a minute and a half.
    Senator Kerry. I believe the President made a huge mistake, a 
catastrophic mistake, not to live up to his own standard, which was 
build a true global coalition, give the inspectors time to finish their 
job, and go through the U.N. process to its end and go to war as a last 
resort.
    I ask each of you just to look into your hearts, look into your 
guts--gut-check time. Was this really going to war as a last resort? The 
President rushed our Nation to war without a plan to win the peace, and 
simple things weren't done. That's why Senator Lugar says 
``incompetent'' in the delivery of services. That's why Senator Hagel, 
Republican, says, ``beyond pitiful, beyond embarrassing, in the zone of 
dangerous.''
    We didn't guard 850,000 tons of ammo. That ammo is now being used 
against our kids. Ten thousand out of twelve thousand Humvees aren't 
armored. I've visited some of those kids with no limbs today because 
they didn't have the armor on those vehicles. They didn't have the right 
body armor. I've met parents who've, on the Internet, gotten the armor 
to send their kids.
    There's no bigger judgment for a President of the United States than 
how you take a nation to war. And you can't say, ``Because Saddam might 
have done it 10 years from now, that's a reason.'' That's an excuse.
    Mr. Gibson. Mr. President.
    President Bush. He complains about the fact our troops don't have 
adequate equipment, yet he voted against the $87 billion supplemental I 
sent to the Congress and then issued one of the most amazing quotes in 
political history: ``I actually did vote for the $87 billion, before I 
voted against it.''
    Saddam Hussein was a risk to our country, ma'am. And he was a risk 
that--and this is where we just have a difference of opinion. The truth 
of the matter is, if you listen carefully: Saddam would still be in 
power if he were the President of the United States, and the world would 
be ``a lot better off.''
    Mr. Gibson. And Senator Kerry, 30 seconds.

[[Page 2310]]

    Senator Kerry. Not necessarily be in power. But here's what I'll say 
about the 87 billion: I made a mistake in the way I talked about it. He 
made a mistake in invading Iraq. Which is a worse decision?
    Now, I voted the way I voted because I saw that he had the policy 
wrong, and I wanted accountability. I didn't want to give a slush fund 
to Halliburton. I also thought the wealthiest people in America ought to 
pay for it, ladies and gentlemen. He wants your kids to pay for it. I 
wanted us to pay for it, since we're at war. I don't think that's a bad 
decision.

Closing Statements

    Mr. Gibson. That's going to conclude the questioning. We're going to 
go now to closing statements, 2 minutes from each candidate. And the 
first closing statement goes to Senator Kerry. I believe that was the 
agreement.
    President Bush. Go ahead. Actually----
    Senator Kerry. You want to go first?
    President Bush. Either way. [Laughter]
    Senator Kerry. Thank you. Charlie, thank you. And thank you all. 
Thank you, all of you, for taking part; thanks for your questions 
tonight very, very much.
    Obviously, the President and I both have very strong convictions. I 
respect him for that, but we have a very different view about how to 
make America stronger and safer. I will never cede the authority of our 
country or our security to any other nation. I'll never give a veto of 
American security to any other entity, not a nation, not a country, not 
an institution. But I know, as I think you do, that our country is 
strongest when we lead the world, when we lead strong alliances. And 
that's the way Eisenhower and Reagan and Kennedy and others did it. We 
are not doing that today. We need to.
    I have a plan that will help us go out and kill and find the 
terrorists, and I will not stop in our effort to hunt down and kill the 
terrorists. But I also have a better plan on how we're going to deal 
with Iraq, training the Iraqi forces more rapidly, getting our allies 
back to the table with a fresh start, with new credibility, with a 
President whose judgment the rest of the world trusts.
    In addition to that, I believe we have a crisis here at home, a 
crisis of the middle class that is increasingly squeezed, health care 
costs going up. I have a plan to provide health care to all Americans. I 
have a plan to provide for our schools so we keep the standards, but we 
help our teachers teach and elevate our schools by funding No Child Left 
Behind. I have a plan to protect the environment so that we leave this 
place in better shape to our children than we were handed it by our 
parents. That's the test.
    I believe America's best days are ahead of us. I'm an optimist. But 
we have to make the right choices, to be fiscally responsible and to 
create the new jobs of the future. We can do this. And I ask you for the 
privilege of leading our Nation to be stronger at home and respected 
again in the world.
    Thank you.
    Mr. Gibson. Senator. And a closing statement from President Bush.
    President Bush. Charlie, thanks. Thank you all very much. It's been 
enjoyable.
    The great contest for the Presidency is about the future, who can 
lead, who can get things done. We've been through a lot together as a 
country, been through a recession, corporate scandals, war. And yet, 
think about where we are. We added 1.9 million new jobs over the past 13 
months. The farm income in America is high. Small businesses are 
flourishing. Homeownership rate is at an alltime high in America. We're 
on the move.
    Tonight I had a chance to discuss with you what to do to keep this 
economy going: Keep the taxes low, don't increase the scope of the 
Federal Government, keep regulations down, legal reform, a health care 
policy that does not empower the Federal Government but empowers 
individuals, and an energy plan that will help us become less dependent 
on foreign sources of energy.
    And abroad, we're at war, and it requires a President who is 
steadfast and strong and determined. I vowed to the American people 
after that fateful day of September the 11th that we would not rest nor 
tire until we're safe. The 9/11 Commission put out a report that said 
America is safer, but not yet safe. There's more work to be done. We'll 
stay on the hunt on Al Qaida. We'll deny sanctuary to these terrorists. 
We'll make sure they do not end up with weapons of mass destruction. The 
great nexus, the great threat to our

[[Page 2311]]

country is that these haters end up with weapons of mass destruction.
    But our long-term security depends on our deep faith in liberty. 
We'll continue to promote freedom around the world. Freedom is on the 
march. Tomorrow Afghanistan will be voting for a President. In Iraq, 
we'll be having free elections, and a free society will make this world 
more peaceful.
    God bless.
    Mr. Gibson. Mr. President and Senator Kerry. That concludes 
tonight's debate.
    I want to give you a reminder that the third and final debate, on 
issues of domestic policy, will be held next Wednesday, October 13th, at 
Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona, hosted by Bob Schieffer of 
CBS News.
    I want to thank President Bush and Senator Kerry for tonight. I want 
to thank these citizens of the St. Louis area who asked the questions, 
who gave so willingly of their time, and who took their responsibility 
very seriously. Thank you also to everyone at Washington. I want to 
thank everyone at Washington University in St. Louis for being such 
gracious hosts.
    I'm Charles Gibson from ABC News. From St. Louis, good night.

Note: The debate began at 8:02 p.m. in the Field House at Washington 
University. In his remarks, the President referred to former Democratic 
Presidential candidate Howard Dean; Finance Minister Adil Abd al-Mahdi 
of the Iraqi Interim Government; Prime Minister Tony Blair of the United 
Kingdom; Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi of Italy; Chairman Yasser 
Arafat of the Palestinian Authority; Gen. Tommy R. Franks, USA, (Ret.), 
former combatant commander, U.S. Central Command; Chairman Kim Chong-il 
of North Korea; and President Aleksander Kwasniewski of Poland. The 
President also referred to the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks 
Upon the United States (9/11 Commission). Senator Kerry referred to Marc 
Racicot, former chairman, Republican National Committee; Usama bin 
Laden, leader of the Al Qaida terrorist organization; Charles Duelfer, 
Special Advisor to the Director of Central Intelligence; King Abdullah 
II of Jordan; Gen. Eric K. Shinseki, USA, (Ret.), former Army Chief of 
Staff; Hans Blix, former Executive Chairman, United Nations Monitoring, 
Verification, and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC); Lt. Gen. Edward Baca, 
(Ret.), former chief, National Guard Bureau; and actors Michael J. Fox 
and Christopher Reeve. Senator Kerry also referred to the 
``Comprehensive Report of the Special Advisor to the DCI on Iraq's 
WMD,'' issued September 30. The names of participants who asked 
questions of the candidates were taken from the transcript produced by 
the Commission on Presidential Debates. This item was not received in 
time for publication in the appropriate issue.