[Weekly Compilation of Presidential Documents Volume 40, Number 20 (Monday, May 17, 2004)]
[Pages 817-824]
[Online from the Government Publishing Office, www.gpo.gov]

<R04>
Interview With Al-Ahram International

May 6, 2004

U.S. Goals in the Middle East

    Q. I have learned that President Mubarak sent you, recently, two 
important messages. I don't know, I mean, the contents of these 
messages, but I assume that of course it be linked by the situation in 
Iraq and Palestine. I would like to ask, in the beginning, one general 
question about how do you look at this vision of the Middle East.
    The President. Well, first of all, I communicate with President 
Mubarak a lot, because I value his judgment, and we've got a frank 
relationship where if he thinks things are going badly, he'll tell me. 
In other words, he doesn't gloss over.
    I think that things in the Middle East for the United States are 
difficult right now. I think they're difficult because people don't 
really understand our intentions. I think they're difficult because some 
people ascribe bad values and bad motives to the American people and the 
American Government.
    Our intentions are to work for free societies and peaceful 
societies. Our intentions are to protect our own security, on the one 
hand, but also enable people to live in peace. Obviously, our reputation 
has been damaged severely by the terrible and horrible acts, inhumane 
acts that were conducted on Iraqi prisoners. Today, I can't tell you how 
sorry I am to them and their families for the humiliation.
    I'm also sorry because people are then able to say, ``Look how 
terrible America is.'' But this isn't America. That's not--Americans are 
appalled at what happened. We're a generous people. I don't think a lot 
of people understand that, so I've got to do a better job of explaining 
to people that we're for a lot of things that most people who live in 
the Middle East want. We want there to be peace. We want people to have 
a living. We want people to send their kids to schools that work. We 
want there to be health care. We want there to be a Palestinian state at 
peace with its neighbors. We want there to be reform. We want people to 
have a chance to participate in the process.
    But I'd say right now times are tough for the United States and the 
Middle East.
    Q. I have four topics, Mr. President: Iraq, the Israeli-Arab issue, 
the so-called greater Middle East, and bilateral--which one do you 
choose of them, Mr. President?
    The President. Whatever you want to do, sir. You're the 
distinguished journalist.

Arab-Israeli Conflict

    Q. Thank you very much, indeed. Okay, I will shoot for the Arab-
Israeli conflict.
    The President. Okay.
    Q. Many Arabs feel that after the letter of assurances you gave to 
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, any future Palestinian state would 
exist on less than half what the partition plan offered them in '47. How 
do you reconcile this with a moral concept of justice?
    The President. First of all, I made it very clear in my letter that 
I recognized circumstances had changed, but I made it very clear of a 
couple of very important points. One, that any final status would be 
negotiated by the parties, that would be the Israelis and the 
Palestinians, not the United States. We won't prejudge final status.
    Secondly, I made it clear that I supported what the Prime Minister 
had done, because I think it's a great opportunity for the establishment 
of a Palestinian state. I'm the first President ever to have articulated 
the vision of a Palestinian state.
    Q. I'm writing here, and I wanted to appreciate that very highly.
    The President. Well, I'll tell you, and I'm somewhat amazed, sir, 
that the debate has already started about what the end results are going 
to look like when we haven't even

[[Page 818]]

really begun yet to establish a state. I think the focus ought to be on 
putting the institutions in place for a Palestinian state that is 
peaceful and prosperous to emerge.
    I think it's very important for reform-minded Palestinians to step 
up and ask the world for help, in order to build the security apparatus 
needed for a state to grow: Ask for education help; ask for help to 
stimulate the entrepreneurial class so businesses will grow. I believe 
it'll happen. And when it does happen, the final status issues will be 
much easier to solve.
    In other words, when there is a state that's up and running and 
prosperous and has the confidence of Egypt and Israel and America and 
the EU and the rest of the world, it'll be much easier for these final--
these tricky issues to be solved between the two parties. And so now is 
the time not to be arguing over what the world will look like down the 
road. We ought to be arguing about what the world can look like this 
year. And that's why the roadmap is so important.
    The United States is firmly committed to the roadmap. I'm sending a 
letter to the--I announced today I'm going to send a letter to the 
Palestinian Prime Minister explaining that I'm committed to the roadmap, 
committed to two states living side by side in peace, but also reminding 
him it's now time to step up and show leadership, show leadership 
against the terrorists and show leadership in putting the institutions 
in place for a state to emerge.

Palestinian Right of Return

    Q. The right of Palestinian refugees to return to their homeland and 
to be provided with compensation is legally assured in several U.N. 
resolutions.
    The President. Right.
    Q. The United States has also traditionally supported the right of 
refugees to return in recent major conflicts. How would you then justify 
making the Palestinian refugees an exception for accepted international 
laws under human rights conventions?
    The President. My comment, again, was this, that--and the right of 
refugees is a final status issue. And that's to be negotiated on between 
the Palestinians and the Israelis. When I said what has changed and what 
will change is when there's a Palestinian state to which Palestinians 
can go. There hasn't been one. And my point was, was that when a state 
is set up and the institutions are in place and people have a chance to 
make a living and it's peaceful, the entrepreneurial class is growing, 
small businesses, people are participating in the political process, 
that that's going to change the dynamic on the ground.
    I fully concede there's a lot--the compensation issue is an issue 
that's still being negotiated. The rights of--you know, the rights of 
Palestinians to return to Israel will be negotiated, but what I'm 
telling you is when a state emerges, it'll change the dynamic. And 
that's all I said in my comment.
    Again, I'll repeat to you, people want to focus on the future, when 
I think we ought to be focused right now on the right now, which is what 
is necessary to put a Palestinian state in place so people can have a 
chance to live in a hopeful society. And I'm frustrated, I must tell 
you, a little bit, because I think that there needs to be better 
leadership in saying, ``What can we do to help the Palestinian people 
develop a state?'' And there needs to be a new constitution, it seems 
like to me.
    And some of these reforms stalled. Heck, we've been talking about 
them for about 2 years, unfortunately, but now is an opportunity. And I 
think Prime Minister Sharon created an interesting dynamic, I really do, 
and that is withdrawal from the West Bank. You know, it wasn't all that 
long ago if an Israeli Prime Minister stood up and said, ``We're out of 
Gaza and parts of the West Bank,'' people would have said, ``That's 
fantastic.'' And so the Prime Minister makes the decision to get out 
and, of course, his own party rejects it, which speaks to--it speaks to 
his leadership, in my judgment, that he's willing to do what he thinks 
is right, in face of political opposition.

Israeli Disengagement Plan/Palestinian State

    Q. But do you really agree that pragmatic realities mean annexation 
of other lands?
    The President. Do I think----
    Q. Do you agree on that, I mean, that pragmatic realities which, I 
mean, being said

[[Page 819]]

repeatedly here in the States, pragmatic realities--pragmatic 
realities----
    The President. You mean, with the conditions on the ground?
    Q. Does it mean annexation of other people's land?
    The President. I think what it means is, I think you're going to see 
over time with the emergence of a Palestinian state that the West Bank 
will be occupied by Palestinians. And to the extent to what the final 
border looks like is up for negotiations.
    Q. Again, we very much appreciate the fact that you were the first 
U.S. President to call for the creation of an independent Palestinian 
state. But in all the recent proposals that are being circulated, 
including the latest disengagement plan, we did not see any specific 
timetable. What happened to your pledge to create a Palestinian state by 
2005? And do you still believe that this could be possible?
    The President. Well, 2005 may be hard, since 2005 is right around 
the corner. I readily concede the date has slipped some, primarily 
because violence sprung up. When I laid out the date of 2005, I believe 
it was around the time I went to Aqaba, Jordan. It was a very meaningful 
moment, where former Prime Minister Abu Mazen, myself, Prime Minister 
Sharon, and His Majesty, the King of Jordan, stood up and pledged to 
work together.
    But we hit a bump in the road--violence, as well as Abu Mazen was 
replaced, which changed the dynamic. I don't want to make any excuses, 
but nevertheless I think the timetable of 2005 isn't as realistic as it 
was 2 years ago. Nevertheless, I do think we ought to push hard as fast 
as possible to get a state in place.
    And I repeat to you, sir, that part of my frustrations were 
alleviated with the Quartet making the statement it made the other day--
the Quartet being the EU, Russia, United Nations, and the United States, 
working together. I think we can get the World Bank involved. But there 
is a certain sense of responsibility that falls upon the Palestinians, 
reform-minded Palestinians to step up and say, ``Yes, we accept these 
institutions necessary for a peaceful state to emerge.''
    There's also a responsibility for Egypt. Egypt has got, in my 
judgment, an important role to play to help make sure there is security 
in Gaza as the civil structure is put in place and as the Government 
structure is put in place. And President Mubarak, I think, is willing to 
assume that responsibility over time. I don't want to put him on a 
timetable, but I do believe he is committed to helping bring security to 
that part of the world. It's in Egypt's interest that there be security.

Egypt's Role in Creation of a Palestinian State

    Q. You know, Mr. President, we did our best, I mean, getting all the 
factions together in Cairo, Egypt, to try to convince them to have one 
single opinion and that we're ready for training the police and security 
guards.
    The President. That's right. President Mubarak has been a leader on 
the issue of security. He really has. As you say, he's convened a very 
important meeting to make it clear that in order for there to be a 
peaceful evolution of a state, there has to be security, and that he's 
willing to train police. Egypt plays a mighty important role. And it's a 
great country, and it should play an important role.

Final Status Issues

    Q. You have said, Mr. President, in recent statements that the 
assurances you gave to Sharon did not differ from what was being 
discussed and what we mentioned now and previous final status talks. But 
in those talks there were proposals on land swaps and an Israeli 
acceptance for the return of a limited number of refugees. Why were 
these proposals absent from your recent letters?
    The President. Look, I want to assure you once again that I 
understand the sensitivity of these final status issues. But they will 
be negotiated, not between the United States and the parties; they're 
negotiated between Israel and the Palestinian Government of a new state. 
And that's really--and that is a position I've taken all along. It's 
what I told my friend President Mubarak. I just told that to His 
Majesty, the King of Jordan. And I will explain that consistent position 
of mine.
    People--I think some people are trying to read something into what I 
said or didn't say. And what--you know, I'll say it finally one

[[Page 820]]

more time: This is an opportunity that we can't let go by. There's a lot 
of argument about final status issues, and they're very important 
issues, don't get me wrong. But the focus ought to be on how do we get a 
Palestinian state up and running and moving forward.
    Q. You have praised Sharon's proposal to withdraw from Gaza, which 
is an idea that does not represent more than one percent of--
[inaudible]--Palestine. Would you accept guarantee for granting 
Palestinians similar letter of assurances stating that any annexation of 
West Bank territory has to be minimal and that Israel has to pull out 
from nearly the entire West Bank, according to Security Resolution 242 
and 338?
    The President. No, I will write--I will say the exact same thing in 
a letter to the Palestinians that I have said publicly today, that I 
believe an opportunity exists, and it's essential that the Palestinian 
Authority find reform-minded leaders who are willing to step up and 
lead.

Israeli Security Wall/New Palestinian State

    Q. The last question on Israeli-Arab issue. You have repeatedly--
repeatedly stated that Israel had the right to defend itself. But do you 
believe that by building walls and settlements and by assassinating 
Palestinian leaders, Israel is enhancing security and helping and 
reassuring peace talks?
    The President. I think that any country has a right to defend 
herself. And you're looking at a President who is now in the process of 
defending my country against terrorist attacks. It is very difficult for 
the President of the United States to condemn anybody for defending 
themselves.
    My problem with the wall was not the security aspect of the wall. My 
problem with the wall was that at one point in time, it looked like it 
was trying to prejudge any final status, and that I hope--my hope is, at 
one point in time, the wall is unnecessary. The hope is, is that a 
peaceful Palestinian state, that--I keep saying that, but I think it's 
possible--but a peaceful Palestinian state must be a state in which 
youngsters are well educated and have a chance to make a living and have 
a chance to--parents have a chance to realize--raise their children in a 
peaceful setting.
    And I think that a peaceful Palestinian state will eventually change 
the dynamics on that which exists on the ground today.

Prisoner Abuse at Abu Ghraib Prison

    Q. Okay. I thank you very much for your patience. I will move to the 
other topic, Iraq.
    The President. Sure. Sure.
    Q. You said yesterday that you first learned of the abuses of Abu 
Ghraib and other prison--and other prisons in Iraq generally. Why has it 
taken so long to adopt serious measures against those directly 
responsible and their commanders?
    The President. First of all, I learned about the fact that there was 
an investigation going on. I did not know the extent of the abuse, and 
there was a report done as a result of those investigations. And what 
you're hearing here in America is, ``Why didn't I see the report?'' And 
that's a good question. That's one of the questions I'm asking, because 
I first saw about the pictures on television screens.
    But one of the things you've got to understand about our country is 
that, one, we reject this kind of treatment of people. It's abhorrent, 
and it's not America. Your viewers have to understand, this is not our 
country. Secondly, that we will fully investigate. Now, there's a 
difference between fully investigating and rushing to judgment. We will 
investigate, and there's a procedure in the military that is necessary 
to make sure that the guilty are truly guilty. It's very important for 
the Commander in Chief not to prejudge.
    Thirdly, the process will be transparent. Your viewers have got to 
know that here in America, in our system, the judicial process will be 
fully transparent, and you're beginning to see the transparency. The 
press corps wants to know different questions, and those questions need 
to be answered.
    Tomorrow, our Secretary of Defense, in whom I've got confidence and 
believe in, will go up and testify at the United States Senate. So 
you'll see the process evolve as to--and the truth come out as to why 
the military needed to take the time necessary to fully investigate 
these horrible, horrible acts.

[[Page 821]]

    And I repeat to you, sir, I am sorry for the humiliation suffered by 
those individuals. It makes me sick to my stomach to see that happen.
    I'll tell you what else I'm sorry about. I'm sorry that the truth 
about our soldiers in Iraq becomes obscured. In other words, we've got 
fantastic citizens in Iraq, good kids, good soldiers, men and women who 
are working every day to make Iraqi citizens' lives better. And there 
are a thousand acts of kindness that take place every day of these great 
Americans who really do care about the citizens in Iraq. It's an awful, 
awful period for the American people, just like it's awful for the Iraqi 
citizens to see that on their TV screens.
    Q. Again, sir, do you feel like you need to apologize to the Iraqis 
and the Arab world after you said that, ``I'm sorry''?
    The President. Well, I'm sorry for the prisoners. I really am. I 
think it's humiliating, and it is, again--what the Arab world must 
understand is a couple of things. One, under a dictatorship, these--this 
wouldn't be transparent. In other words, if there was torture under a 
dictator, we would never know the truth. In a democracy, you'll know the 
truth, and justice will be done. And that's what people need to know.

U.N. Security Council Resolution on Iraq

    Q. What are the main pillars of the upcoming Security Council 
resolution on Iraq? How much control are you ready to cede to the United 
Nations and the future Iraqi Government?
    The President. Well, I think the Iraqi Government wants the 
sovereignty. And I think that's the proper--the proper relationship is 
for the Iraqi--the sovereignty to be passed to the Iraqi Government with 
help from coalition as well as the United Nations. I'll tell you, a very 
good role for the United Nations is to help set up the elections that 
will take place in January of 2005. And the United Nations Security 
Council resolution is important, because it says to members of the 
world, please participate in helping this Government grow.
    But the sovereignty--Iraqi people want to run the Government 
themselves. That's not to say they don't want help. Of course they want 
help. But they want to run their Government. Frankly, you hear 
frustrations about America there in Iraq. And I can understand that, 
because the Iraq--nobody wants their Government run for them. The people 
of Iraq want to run their own Government, and that's what will happen.

Timing of U.S. Withdrawal From Iraq

    Q. How long do you think the United States will stay in Iraq?
    The President. As long as necessary, and not one day more.

U.S. Future Role in Iraq/Accomplishments

    Q. A recent Gallup Poll showed that 71 percent of Iraqis considered 
the United States an occupying power. Does this disappoint you?
    The President. No, listen, I understand. I mean, if I were an Iraqi 
and I saw people--was asked, am I happy that somebody is running my 
Government for me, which basically is what the question implies, the 
answer would be, ``No, we want to run our Government ourselves.'' And 
that's why we're transferring sovereignty.
    I'll tell you, however, the Iraqi people understand that America 
needs to be around for a while to help make sure that the killers--the 
foreign fighters who are there, disgruntled former Saddamists--don't 
wreak havoc. There are thousands of Iraqis losing their lives at the 
hands of these killers. And they are--and they need help right now, 
until security--Iraqi security forces are efficient, are formed in a way 
that will be able to be responsive to the dangers of these few people. 
It is essential that there be a secure environment as Iraq emerges from 
this period of tyranny, and they want our help there. They also want the 
reconstruction aid.
    Q. And it has been delayed a lot.
    The President. Well, it has, for a reason. Early in the winter there 
was fast movement on the reconstruction projects. I mean, there's some 
wonderful things that have happened in Iraq, which of course don't get 
mentioned very often.
    For example, I'll tell you an interesting thing that's happened, is 
that the currency,

[[Page 822]]

the old currency was replaced by a new currency in about a 6 or 7 month 
period of time. That's hard to do. And yet, it was done without a lot of 
arbitrage, a lot of counterfeiting, theft. There was no theft, and the 
currency is stable, which is a remarkable feat, when you think about it. 
The electricity levels were climbing quite dramatically. The oil 
production, which is Iraqi oil production, it's not American, it's--Iraq 
owns the oil--it's up to about 2\1/2\ million barrels a day.
    So in other words, there were positive signs going on. And then we 
had this period of fighting, where elements in society decided to fight, 
because they saw freedom coming and they wanted to try and stop it, is 
what they're trying to do. And we took them on and are defeating them.
    What's happening now is that big projects are starting back up 
again, because the security situation is a little better, and big 
companies are moving in with these reconstruction projects. It will 
start back up, and Iraq will be better for it.

President's Meeting With Iraqi Women's Delegation

    Q. I am aware of a very emotional meeting that took place recently 
between you and the Iraqi women delegation----
    The President. Yes.
    Q. ----and met you there with lots of tears.
    The President. Yes, there were.
    Q. Do you care to share the details of that meeting with us?
    The President. Only because you asked. I did have the honor of 
welcoming a group of women to the Oval Office. I was told ahead of time 
that some members of the delegation did not want to come in the Oval 
Office because they didn't want to get their picture taken, because they 
were afraid, not of American reaction but of reaction back home. In 
other words, there is still fear in people's heart.
    I met with those ladies later. The door opened to the Oval Office, 
and the first woman that walked in looked at me, and she burst out in 
tears and said, ``You are my liberator.'' It touched my heart. It really 
did. And I, of course--I held her in my arms and tears came to my eyes 
as she cried out of joy. It really made me feel great. She said, ``Thank 
you, Mr. President. You liberated us.'' I said, ``No, the American 
people helped liberate you.'' And then another lady came in, and another 
lady came in. We had about six of us in our office.
    And it was a touching meeting. These were people that were obviously 
somewhat taken aback that they were in with the President of the United 
States. And yet, when they were with me, it was deeply emotional. It 
touched my heart. I still remember it clearly today. It made me very 
joyous inside to think that people who had been enslaved to tyranny, 
fearful of torture, probably had friends in mass graves, would be so 
thankful for the chance to live in peace.
    And I'll tell you what's really important for the people--those 
people, those women, and I think about them all the time, is for me to 
never show any weakness in the face of the dangers in Iraq. In other 
words, those killers want us to leave. But my attitude is, having met 
with these women, if we leave, they will be in jeopardy. And I have an 
obligation, no matter how difficult it gets, to stay strong on behalf of 
those women and their chance to raise their children in freedom.
    The other day I had the Olympic Committee from Iraq come, two 
members of the Olympic Committee. It was an exciting moment. I love 
sports, for starters, and the head of the women's Olympic committee 
came. She was a former runner. And she told me about her 2-year-old son 
and 1-year-old son. She had quit the Olympic team because she didn't 
want to run for one of Saddam's sons, for fear of her life, and yet she 
was so grateful for the freedom she has. It's heartening.
    I met with Fulbright Scholars, young Iraqis that are here studying 
in the United States. I met with doctors from Iraq who are getting new 
training, all of whom are desperate for there to be a free society so 
they can live in peace, and that's why we share the same goal.

Vision for the Greater Middle East

    Q. On greater Middle East, Mr. President, has your vision on the 
greater Middle East initiative changed at all in light of recent 
reactions from Arab and European countries?

[[Page 823]]

What will be presented to the G-8 leaders in their meeting next month?
    The President. My vision for the greater Middle East reforms were 
strengthened by the Alexandria Library Conference. You might have heard 
of that. [Laughter] I saw the spirit of that conference. There are 
people in the Middle East who understand the need for reforms.
    Now, when I talk about reforms, I fully understand the pace of 
reform will be different from country to country. But nevertheless, 
there has to be a commitment to reform for a better life for every 
citizen. I am as strong today on reforms in the greater Middle East as I 
have ever been.
    I fully understand criticism. I mean, I get criticized all the time 
in my job. I think the job of a leader is to have a vision, a vision 
that is hopeful and optimistic and one based upon certain principles, a 
principle like rule of law, a principle like human dignity by empowering 
individuals to make decisions in the political process, a principle that 
every person deserves respect, a principle that says that a peaceful 
society is more likely to be one that is a free society. And therefore, 
I won't abandon those principles, no matter how significant the 
pressure.
    Q. Last question.
    The President. Okay, one more question. Then we've got to go.

Syria

    Q. Why does your administration insist on imposing sanctions against 
Syria?
    The President. Because they will not fight terror, and they won't 
join us in fighting terror. We've asked them to do some things, and they 
haven't responded. And Congress passed a law saying that if Syria will 
not join--for example, booting out a Hezbollah office out of Damascus--
that the President has the right to put sanctions on.
    I have yet to impose a sanction yet, but the bill enables me to do 
so. And we've talked to the Syrian leader very clearly, and these 
aren't--these are reasonable requests, and thus far, he hasn't heeded 
them. And that's why, if I make the decision to put on sanctions, it 
will be because he hasn't been a full partner in the war against terror.
    Q. That would create another--more problems in the area.
    The President. Well, we'll see. But I think that people need to 
understand that there needs to be a full commitment. I mean, there's no 
need to harbor people who are expressing hatred. And if the world would 
join together to rout out terrorist organizations who want to kill 
innocent people, it would be a heck of a lot better off.
    See, here's my objection. We've got Muslims killing Muslims in Iraq. 
There are Muslims who will kill an innocent Muslim for the sake of 
trying to create fear. We can't let that happen. Civilized people must 
not allow that to happen. What they're trying to do is they're trying to 
shake our will, our collective will. For those of us who love freedom, 
they were trying to say, ``Well, don't work for freedom. Leave us alone 
so we can kill other people.'' We just can't let that happen. There are 
too many peaceful people who need protection, and we want to help them. 
And most importantly, we want to help them help themselves, so they can 
be self-governing in Iraq.
    But the killing of innocent life for political purposes is not 
acceptable in the 21st century. And you know that, and I believe that.

Arab-U.S. Relations

    Q. I assure you that, you know, the Arab people really have nothing 
against the American people. Maybe the only--the only issue is the 
Palestinian-Israeli----
    The President. Israeli issue, yes.
    Q. ----and the American bias to it.
    The President. I hope we can get that solved. I mean, I truly 
believe that a peaceful state will emerge. And listen, I've got great 
respect for Arab culture. I've got great respect for the Muslim 
religion. I reject this notion that this is a war against Muslims. This 
is not a war against Muslims. The Muslim religion is a peaceful 
religion. Islam is peace. This is a war against evil people who want to 
kill innocent life. That's what this is.
    And it is--they've killed in our country. They've killed in your 
country. They killed a great man in Sadat. And it's essential that 
freedom-loving people and peaceful people fight terror. It's the call of 
our time. It's the

[[Page 824]]

challenge of the 21st century. And we've got to work together to do so.
    And I appreciate you giving me a chance to visit and share my views 
to the people who need to learn more about our intentions and our deep 
desire for peace.
    Q. I do thank you very, very, very much.
    The President. Thank you, sir.
    Q. And I hope to see you very soon.
    The President. Good job. Very good job. Very good interview.

Note: The interview was taped at 3:37 p.m. in the Map Room at the White 
House for later broadcast, and the transcript was released by the Office 
of the Press Secretary on May 7. In his remarks, the President referred 
to President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt; Prime Minister Ariel Sharon of 
Israel; Prime Minister Ahmed Korei and former Prime Minister Mahmoud 
Abbas (Abu Mazen) of the Palestinian Authority; King Abdullah II of 
Jordan; former President Saddam Hussein of Iraq; Ahmed Al-Samarrai, 
president, and Iman Sabeeh, member of the executive office, National 
Olympic Committee of Iraq; and President Bashar al-Asad of Syria. A tape 
was not available for verification of the content of this interview. 
This item was not received in time for publication in the appropriate 
issue.