[Weekly Compilation of Presidential Documents Volume 39, Number 47 (Monday, November 24, 2003)]
[Pages 1632-1639]
[Online from the Government Publishing Office, www.gpo.gov]

<R04>
Interview With Trevor Kavanagh of The Sun

November 17, 2003

The Oval Office

    The President. Have you ever been in the Oval Office before?
    Mr. Kavanagh. Once, just once.
    The President. Okay. The rug was designed by my wife. Every 
President gets to design his own rug. You probably didn't know that.
    Mr. Kavanagh. Fabulous.
    The President. I wanted mine--mine was designed by my wife, Laura. 
And I wanted people to have a sense of optimism when they came in here, 
that this is a guy who kind of sees a better world, not a worse world. 
Sometimes the Oval can be foreboding, and I wanted it to be cheery. So I 
hope you felt that.
    This is called ``A Charge To Keep.'' It's based upon a Methodist 
hymn. One of America's great imports from England was John Wesley. And 
it talks about serving something greater than yourself, which speaks to 
my

[[Page 1633]]

own personal faith. As a President, it speaks to my need to capture the 
spirit of America and call on people to serve. You've probably followed 
some of my domestic policy, but one of the things that's important is to 
call on people to serve their communities by helping neighbors who hurt. 
The de Tocquevillean view of America at that point was just kind of a 
civic fabric of loving organizations; part of my vision, as well, is to 
energize them.
    The painting's of Texas. That's kind of what my ranch looks like, by 
a guy named Onderdonk. He's a Texas landscape artist. The bluebonnets 
are not quite that big. Blair and I--well, he's been there, and he would 
recognize kind of the look, if he were here. This is west Texas, where 
my wife's family was raised. We were both raised in west Texas, but this 
is farther west than where I was raised. It's called El Paso. But it's a 
famous Texas artist and historian who painted that.
    More Texas. The reason I have Texas up there is it's where I'm from. 
And in this job if you can't figure out who you are--you better know who 
you are because of the pressures and the decisionmaking process and all 
the noise of politics and all that.
    Really quickly, this is a desk given to us by Queen Victoria. A 
famous desk called the U.S.S. Resolute, and it's wood from the Resolute. 
The door was put on by Roosevelt to cover his infirmities. Out of the 
door poked John Kennedy's son----
    Mr. Kavanagh. Oh, yes, I remember.
    The President. I chose to use this. Ronald Reagan put the bottom on 
to make the desk high so it won't bump your knees. I love the desk. I 
love its history. It does speak to the great relationship between 
America and Great Britain; I'm sitting at a desk given to our country by 
Queen Victoria.
    And finally, the Churchill bust is on loan from the Brits. Tony 
Blair knew I was a great admirer of Churchill, so here he sits, along 
with Lincoln and Eisenhower.
    That's it. Welcome.
    Mr. Kavanagh. Fantastic. Thank you very much, Mr. President. Where 
would you like me?
    The President. Sit right here. Take Vice President Cheney's seat.
    Mr. Kavanagh. I'm more than a little impressed by being here and by 
sitting in this seat.
    The President. Well, you know, this is a shrine to democracy, and we 
treat it as such. And it's an honor to serve here.
    Mr. Kavanagh. Well, I would like to thank you on behalf of our 
readers for giving them and me the time to talk to you.
    The President. Well, I'm glad you're here, thanks.

World After Afghanistan and Iraq

    Mr. Kavanagh. We're a very pro-American newspaper, and our readers 
were shocked and deeply moved by September the 11th. And they supported 
what happened subsequently in Afghanistan and a little more reluctantly 
in Iraq, but in fact, the majority of our readers were behind the 
action.
    I think what they would like to know--we've talked with them in a 
way which is quite interesting. We actually spent a weekend with about 
2,000 of our readers.
    The President. Really? [Laughter] Good marketing tool. [Laughter] 
That's interesting.
    Mr. Kavanagh. Yes. And the one question they wanted to ask you is, 
is the world a safer place after the conflict than it was before?
    The President. Yes, much safer. It's safer for a couple of reasons. 
One, the free world has recognized the threat. In order to make the 
world safe, you've got to actually see reality. And the reality is that 
there are cold-blooded killers who were trying to intimidate, create 
fear, create hostility, and to shape the will of the civilized world.
    And a lot of countries have seen the threat for what it is. So, 
therefore, step one is recognizing the problem. Tony Blair recognizes 
the problem. Jose Maria Aznar recognizes the problem. Silvio Berlusconi 
recognizes the problem. Clearly, the United States recognizes the 
problem. After all, the clearest indication that we were at war and that 
the stakes had changed dramatically was September the 11th. After all, 
we were a country which was able to sit back in our--kind of in our 
geographical posture and pick and choose where a threat might emerge and 
say we may have to deal with that or we may not deal with it. We were 
pretty confident that we were protected ourselves by oceans. That 
changed.

[[Page 1634]]

And one of my vows to the American people is I won't forget the lessons 
of September the 11th, 2001.
    Secondly, the world is safer because the actions we have taken will 
ultimately strengthen multinational institutions. Take the theater in 
Iraq. The United Nations had recognized that Saddam Hussein was a 
threat. They recognized it in not one resolution but multiple 
resolutions and yet didn't do anything about it. And therefore, the 
resolutions became weak, became just words.
    And as a result of enforcing 1441, which said that you disarm or 
there will be serious consequences, now when multinational institutions 
speak, hopefully people will take them seriously. And in order to win 
the war on terror, there needs to be alliance and cooperation because 
these are killers that are capable of hiding in societies. They're 
patient. They're lethal. They pop up and will destroy. And by the way, 
they don't care who they destroy. There are no rules for these people. 
They will kill children just as soon as they'll kill somebody in a 
military uniform.
    Thirdly, the world is safer because there is a--and by the way, 
multinational forum doesn't necessarily mean U.N. It can also mean 
collaborations, like the collaboration that's now taking place with 
North Korea in dealing with Kim Chong-il, who is a threat to peace. And 
now it's not just the United States dealing with Kim Chong-il; it's the 
United States, China, South Korea, Japan, and Russia in a collaborative 
effort. Or the fine work--the initial fine work done by the foreign 
ministers of Great Britain, France, and Germany in telling Iran to get 
rid of its nuclear ambitions. I say ``initial fine work'' because the 
Iranians, in the past, have had clandestine operations. And therefore, 
in order to make sure that the words that have been issued to them are 
true, there must be transparency.
    Fourthly, we dealt Al Qaida. We are tough on Al Qaida. Now, you 
know, there are key figures still looming in caves and remote regions of 
the world, but we're dismantling them. If you were to look at Al Qaida 
as a business organization, middle management is no longer. That's not 
to say that they're not grooming junior executives to take over certain 
roles. But we're tough, and we're on their trail, and we're still 
hunting them down. Make no mistake about it. And as a result of 
dismantling Al Qaida, the world is safer.
    We've also dealt with the tyrants in Afghanistan, which is an 
incredibly dangerous regime, dangerous not only to the free world 
because they provided housing, training, money, safe haven, but also 
they were just tortuous and barbaric to their own people. And in Iraq, 
Saddam Hussein was clearly a threat to peace. And we can argue about the 
definition of ``serious consequence,'' and I respect the debate, but no 
one can justify this man's behavior to his people. We've discovered mass 
graves with over 300,000 people there, rape rooms, and torture rooms. He 
is paying suiciders to go kill innocent Israelis. He had a weapons 
program as discovered--I promise you this is going to be a short answer, 
eventually. I saw you looking at the clock; your glance can't escape me. 
[Laughter]
    This is an important question. It is the question.
    Mr. Kavanagh. Of course, absolutely.
    The President. David Kay discovered a weapons program that was in 
material breach of 1441. In other words, it was in violation of 
precisely what the United Nations had asked him not to do. Saddam 
Hussein, in 1991, it was assumed that he--his nuclear weapons program 
would be active in the out-years, and in fact, the inspectors discovered 
he's got nuclear ambitions, not only real and active but his program was 
a lot farther along than we thought. And had he ever developed a nuclear 
weapon, had he been allowed to have a nuclear weapon, he would have been 
the ultimate source of international blackmail.
    And so the removal of Saddam Hussein makes the world safer. And as 
importantly, the removal of Saddam Hussein gives the Iraqis a chance to 
live in freedom, which is the ultimate--freedom is the ultimate route to 
security. I strongly believe that free nations are peaceful nations. 
Free nations are not terrorist havens, do not become terrorist havens. 
Free nations won't create conditions of strife and resentment that 
breeds anxiety and terror.
    And therefore, the world is becoming safer, is safer, and will be 
even more safe

[[Page 1635]]

when Iraq becomes free. And Iraq will be free, and it'll be peaceful. 
And we need peace and freedom in that part of the world.
    Now, there's an interesting debate going on as to whether or not 
people like the Iraqis will ever adapt the habits of freedom. There's 
kind of an elitism that takes place in our country, in your country, and 
elsewhere, feels, well, ``Certain people can't be free. They can't adapt 
the habits of democracy.'' I strongly disagree. I strongly disagree.
    And so, yes, the world is safer, and the world is more peaceful.

Future U.S. Activity in Iraq

    Mr. Kavanagh. Okay. That answer will resonate with our readers. 
Nonetheless, there is concern about the events, particularly in the last 
week or so, when things have escalated. I think this causes concern 
everywhere. Are we going to increase military presence there? Are we 
going to pull out? There's a fear that----
    The President. You don't have to worry about us pulling out.
    Mr. Kavanagh. There's a famous T-shirt slogan which shows the 
American flag and the words, ``These colors don't run.'' Do you stand by 
that?
    The President. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Our will is being 
tested. See, the tactics of the terrorists is to kill as many innocent 
people as possible and, therefore, try to shape the will of the Iraqis. 
As progress is made--and we're making interesting progress, and I'll 
cite some examples in a minute that I think are fascinating. But as the 
Iraqis begin to say, ``Wait a minute. Life can be better,'' and their 
instincts kick in about what it means to live in a free society, the 
terrorists want to shake that. They want to scare them. They want the 
police not to become police. And we've got over 118,000 people now, 
Iraqi citizens, in uniform beginning to conduct operations for their own 
security.
    They, of course, want to kill our own soldiers and, therefore, try 
to shake the will of the American people and the President and the 
command structure. They killed those Italians. And they were hoping that 
Berlusconi would say, ``Oh, my goodness, this is too big a fight. We'll 
leave.'' We're not leaving. We're staying there to get the job done. Of 
course we mourn the death of any citizen. But I recognize that it is--I 
still remember the death, what happened to us on September the 11th as 
well. I was there at Ground Zero right after the attacks, and I remember 
this kind of haze and the smells and the death and destruction. I'll 
always remember that, of course. And as I've told you, I vowed not to 
forget the lessons.
    Mr. Kavanagh. That changed everything?
    The President. Absolutely. Look, what changed for me was sitting on 
Air Force One and getting the reports that we were under attack. And I 
made up my mind then, right then, that we didn't need a bunch of legal 
briefs. I didn't need a bunch of--you know, let's kind of hold hands and 
hope to get the right answer. We were at war, and we were going to win 
the war. And I still feel that same exact determination today that I did 
then.
    Mr. Kavanagh. So you'll stay in Iraq even----
    The President. We will do our job.
    Mr. Kavanagh. ----after there's an interim council, a Government 
which is----
    The President. Yes. There's a lot of talk right now about the 
political process, as there should be. And we are interested in the 
Iraqis assuming more responsibility on the political side and on the 
security side. And a political process in which the Iraqis assume more 
responsibility will make the security side come together quicker as well 
in our judgment.
    And therefore, Bremer came here, he took instructions back from me 
to talk to the Governing Council to find out what is feasible when it 
comes to the passing of more power to the Governing Council. That's 
where we are right there.
    On the security side, absolutely we're there. The goal is for Iraq 
to be peaceful and free. I understand the consequences of a free and 
peaceful Iraq in the midst of the Middle East. We can have the debate 
all day long as to whether the Middle East will ever adapt the habits of 
democracy and freedom. I think they will, obviously, and I'm confident 
they will. I like to tell people in this country, freedom is not 
America's gift to the world; freedom is not Great Britain's gift to the

[[Page 1636]]

world; freedom is the Almighty's gift to everybody in the world.

Freedom for Iraq

    Mr. Kavanagh. And this is what you'll tell the demonstrators? Or 
this is what you would tell the demonstrators if you had 5 minutes with 
them?
    The President. Of course I would, absolutely. I will say, ``You may 
disagree with our tactics. Nobody likes war. War is my last choice.'' If 
the demonstrators are there as anti-war protestors, they may be there 
for other reasons as well--global trade--and I'd be glad to talk to them 
about that as well. But in terms of war, I can understand why people are 
anxious about war. I can understand why citizens in Great Britain, 
protestor or not, wonders about why a President would commit to war, 
because nobody likes war.
    On the other hand, I would tell them, the skeptics and the critics, 
that I have a job to protect the security of the United States of 
America and that Saddam Hussein was a security risk, as witnessed by the 
international community speaking loudly on that subject 12 different 
times. But I would tell those who doubt our policy that we share a 
common goal, which is peace, and that free societies are peaceful 
societies. They may say, ``Well, you can't possibly expect a country 
like Iraq to be free,'' and then we'd have an interesting philosophical 
debate because I believe freedom exists in the heart of every single 
human being. It may take longer for people to accept freedom, if they've 
been tortured and brutalized like Saddam Hussein did.
    Secondly, I would tell the skeptics that not only is the world more 
secure as a result of the decisions we made, the Iraqi people now have a 
chance to live in a society which is hopeful and optimistic, a society 
in which you're able to speak your mind, a society in which you don't 
have to pay homage to a brutal tyrant and his two brutal sons, which is 
precisely how they had to live in the past.

Threats to World Peace

    Mr. Kavanagh. So how do you respond to those people who were polled 
by the Europe Commission and found that America was--alongside Iran, 
North Korea--is the second most powerful threat to world peace?
    The President. You just have to tell them, ``Watch what happens.'' 
The world is going to be more peaceful, and the free world will be more 
secure as a result of the decisions we've taken.

United Kingdom's Contribution in Iraq

    Mr. Kavanagh. Can I ask you about the special relationship, the role 
the British soldiers play in Iraq and are still playing?
    The President. Sure.
    Mr. Kavanagh. Would you like to tell me about you feel about our 
contribution?
    The President. Yes, I'll tell you about your troops. They are well 
trained. They are well motivated, and they're really good at what they 
do. And our soldiers and our generals and our commanders really 
appreciate being side-by-side with the Brits. They trust them, and 
that's important.
    Secondly, in Basra, the Brits have brought an interesting strategy 
in dealing in Basra because you have dealt in Northern Ireland. In other 
words, it was kind of a transfer of experience that has been incredibly 
useful and important. I am really proud of our--not only our alliance 
because it's close now, and I intend to keep it that way.
    I've got a great personal relationship with Tony Blair. Let me tell 
you something about him just real quick, because it relates also to the 
trust of the troops. He's a man who comes in here, and he says he's 
going to do something, and as I said--as they say in Texas, you can book 
him when he says he's going to do something; you can take it to the 
bank. Because every time he has said something, he has done it, and I 
appreciate that a lot. It's not always the way it is in politics, 
whether it be domestic or international politics. Sometimes they'll come 
and look you in the eye and say, ``Oh, don't worry, Mr. President, we're 
with you and behind you,'' and it turns out they're way behind you. You 
can't find them when the heat gets on. But that's not the way Tony Blair 
is, and that's not the way the Brits' command structure is, and that's 
not the way the soldiers in the field have been. They've been tough and 
capable and decent people--that's the other thing about militaries. Both 
our militaries are full of compassionate people, because not only are we 
chasing down people and bringing

[[Page 1637]]

them to justice, as we say, but there are schools being built, 
orphanages being opened, hospitals being supplied, thanks to 
compassionate British troops and American troops as well, and other 
troops. It speaks to the honor of our respective militaries. These are 
honorable people.

President's Upcoming Meeting With Families of Fallen British Soldiers

    Mr. Kavanagh. You're going to speak to some of the families of those 
who have already died in Iraq and also September the 11th.
    The President. Yes.
    Mr. Kavanagh. You're going to see them, I guess, on Downing Street.
    The President. Well, I'm not sure exactly where, but you bet. I am 
going to see them.
    Mr. Kavanagh. What are you going to say to them?
    The President. Well, I'm going to first of all ask for God's 
blessings, because I understand how bad they hurt. I can't imagine what 
it would be like, if I were a mother or a dad, to have lost a child. I'm 
a proud dad. It's got to shatter a person's heart to lose a loved one, 
and I will do the best I can to provide some comfort. I have done this 
here in America as well. It's part of my duty as the leader of this 
country to comfort those who have sacrificed.
    I'll also explain to them as best as I can that the sacrifices that 
their loved one has made is for a noble cause, and that's peace and 
freedom. I strongly believe that what we're doing today will make it 
easier for this person's grandchild to grow up in a free world and a 
peaceful world.
    I'll tell you an interesting story, kind of dawned on me a while 
ago. I was talking to Prime Minister Koizumi of Japan in Tokyo. We were 
having dinner, actually. And I kind of reflected on what it would be 
like--during our dinner, I reflected on what it would be like if America 
and the Allies hadn't done a good job in post-World War II. Would I be 
sitting with a Prime Minister of Japan, with whom I've got great 
relations, talking about how to deal with Kim Chong-il and North Korea? 
It's an interesting thought.
    Mr. Kavanagh. Very interesting.
    The President. Beyond that is whether or not somebody 50 years from 
now is going to be sitting with a leader from Iraq or any other country 
in that region saying, ``Thank goodness George W. and Tony Blair held 
the line, because I'm now able to deal with terrorist threats or 
potential terrorist threats with an ally. I'm able to help bring more 
peace to the world.''
    Presidents and Prime Ministers should never worry about their short-
term history, how they're viewed in short-term history. There's no such 
thing as short-term history, except for the musings of somebody who's 
not very objective to begin with, because if you set big goals and work 
on big items, the President or the Prime Minister won't be around to see 
the effects of those policies. And therefore, I don't worry about the 
short-term history. I think in terms of long-term history. I know what 
we're doing now is going to have an effect, a positive effect on this 
world.

France, Germany, and NATO

    Mr. Kavanagh. Can I just backtrack a little?
    The President. Sure.
    Mr. Kavanagh. You were talking earlier about the contributions 
countries like Britain and Italy have made, and others.
    The President. Spain, Poland, a lot of people.
    Mr. Kavanagh. You didn't mention France and Germany in that. You 
seem very critical of France.
    The President. Look, my attitude is the past is there. It's past, 
and now let's go on. I'll tell you one example of why that attitude is 
important, and that is Germany's contribution in Afghanistan. And it's a 
positive contribution, more than positive; it's incredibly helpful. 
They've got a number of troops there. It's the first deployment of 
German troops, as I understand, outside of their soil since World War 
II. It's a positive--yes, I think that's right. Check the facts. But 
anyway, it's helpful, really helpful.
    Mr. Kavanagh. And NATO?
    The President. Yes, NATO is important.
    Mr. Kavanagh. But France is a semidetached member of NATO----

[[Page 1638]]

    The President. Well, it's a historic role----
    Mr. Kavanagh. They won't be a rival----
    The President. I certainly hope not. See, there's no need to rival 
the United States and our friends. Our goals are peace.
    Mr. Kavanagh. But France wants to counter.
    The President. You mean multipolarity? Well, I think we need to work 
against multipolarity, and the reason why I know we need to work against 
multipolarity is a Europe working with American can do a lot together. A 
united Europe working with America can do a lot together. We can promote 
peace. We can fight off terror, which is necessary, and there needs to 
be full cooperation in order to defeat the terrorists. We can work on 
issues like global AIDS.
    I'm real proud of our country's contribution to global AIDS, just to 
give you a sense of my feeling on this. We are a fortunate country. 
We're prosperous--and by the way, we're becoming more prosperous, which 
is good news.

Global AIDS Initiative

    Mr. Kavanagh. I'd like to ask you about that.
    The President. Okay. But I believe we owe a lot to the world's 
peace, and we owe a lot to those who suffer, because of our fortune, 
because of our wealth. I'm proud of the fact that Congress has supported 
my initiative to provide a large sum of money. And as importantly, I'm 
proud of our NGOs and faith-based organizations that are willing to help 
provide the infrastructure so that we can get help to beat this 
pandemic. We're a prosperous country, and yet in our world an entire 
generation is about to be wiped out. And I feel strongly about America's 
need to be involved and Europe's need to be involved in this issue 
together, just like I feel strongly we need to provide food for the 
hungry, just like I feel strongly that when we see tyranny, that we need 
to work for freedom.
    Every situation, of course, doesn't require military action. I just 
repeat--I want your readers to know, the military is my last choice, not 
my first choice. See, I understand the consequences of war. I understand 
the risks of war. I understand firsthand, particularly when I go and hug 
the moms and dads and brothers and sisters and sons and daughters of 
those who died.
    I also see the consequences of not acting, of hoping for the best in 
the face of these tyrannical killers. So therefore, our foreign policy 
will be active. We'll work closely with our friends and allies, and 
we're going to stay on the offensive against the terrorists.

National Economy/Steel Tariffs

    Mr. Kavanagh. Let me just ask you one quick question on the economy.
    The President. Yes.
    Mr. Kavanagh. It's going great guns. You're revising figures 
upwards. You introduced tax cuts. You promised tax cuts; you introduced 
them. Is this a message to the rest of the world too?
    The President. Well, I think people ought to look at progrowth 
policies and how to stimulate the entrepreneurial spirit. To me, one of 
the unique qualities of our country is the individualism of our country 
and the willingness of people to take risks to better themselves. Most 
new jobs in America are created by small businesses, and that's an 
exciting aspect of our economy, because it not only is good economics to 
have the job-hiring dispersed throughout society, it also is such a 
hopeful part of our economy, when you think about somebody in America 
can start their own business and grow it and then actually own 
something. They become the owner of this piece of property.
    Our tax policy was very effective at stimulating small-business 
growth, because most small businesses pay tax at the individual income 
tax level. When you hear ``small business'' or ``small corporation,'' 
you think ``corporate tax.'' But in America most small businesses are 
sole proprietorships or Subchapter S's, so that when we cut all rates, 
not trying to select rate cuts but all rates, it really affected capital 
formation in the small business.
    This economy and this country, more importantly, is tough and 
resilient. We've been through a lot. When I showed up here, we were in 
recession. I guess we were headed into recession. But the first--I show 
up--Dick Cheney and I are here; we get sworn in in late January; and the 
first quarter of

[[Page 1639]]

'01 is recession or the beginnings of a recession. And then the attacks 
hurt us, and we had corporate scandals. But I think the world is 
beginning to see America will deal with corporate scandals in a tough 
way. It doesn't matter whether you're--we will hold people to account. I 
believe, in criminal matters, that there has to be consequences for bad 
behavior, and clear consequences, and that's how you deter bad behavior. 
And our SEC and our prosecutors are moving quickly.
    The war affected people, but we're overcoming that. It's not only 
good tax policy, but we've got to work on making sure Congress doesn't 
overspend, and that's tough. But I'm holding the line. We've done pretty 
good on our budget agreements so far. We need better legal policy. I've 
been pushing tort reform at the national level on class action suits, 
all of which make it easier for people to kind of calculate risk when it 
comes to employing capital, which is the essence of promoting the 
entrepreneurial spirit.
    Trade is a very important element. I'll be dealing--real quickly--
I'm going to take a good look at the steel issue. The International 
Trade Commission made a ruling. It said our industry was being harmed by 
imports. I felt I had an obligation to take that report seriously, which 
I did. I imposed tariffs to see whether or not--to give the breathing 
room for the industry to restructure. I'm not analyzing the extent to 
which they restructured. Having said that, I am a fierce free trader. I 
believe in free trade. I know free trade is important between America 
and Great Britain, and I will continue to resist any protectionist 
tendencies here. In order for us to be free traders, however, we've got 
to enforce the rules of free trade, and I was doing so through the 
International Trade Commission's report.
    Sorry I cut you off.
    Mr. Kavanagh. Not at all.
    The President. First Lady Bush is standing out there. We're getting 
ready to award the National Humanities Award here.
    Mr. Kavanagh. Many thanks.
    The President. See you over there.

Note: The interview began at 9:31 a.m. on November 14 in the Oval Office 
at the White House. The transcript was made available by the Office of 
the Press Secretary on November 14 but was embargoed for release until 8 
a.m., November 17. In his remarks, the President referred to Prime 
Minister Tony Blair of the United Kingdom; President Jose Maria Aznar of 
Spain; Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi of Italy; Chairman Kim Chong-il 
of North Korea; Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi of Japan; former 
President Saddam Hussein of Iraq; L. Paul Bremer III, Presidential Envoy 
to Iraq; and David Kay, CIA Special Advisor for Strategy Regarding Iraqi 
Weapons of Mass Destruction Programs. A tape was not available for 
verification of the content of this interview.