[Weekly Compilation of Presidential Documents Volume 38, Number 15 (Monday, April 15, 2002)]
[Pages 571-576]
[Online from the Government Publishing Office, www.gpo.gov]

<R04>
Interview With the United Kingdom's ITV Television Network

April 4, 2002

Situation in the Middle East

    Trevor McDonald. Mr. President, the situation in the Middle East is 
desperate beyond words. How far are you prepared to go to resolve the 
crisis?
    The President. Well, today, I gave a speech which shows my resolve 
to work with all parties concerned to try to achieve a lasting peace. On 
the one hand, I called upon the Arab world to fight to cut off the 
money, to stop this business about glorifying suicide bombers by calling 
them martyrs, to make sure that the press does encourage violence and 
killing and murder. And on the other hand, I said Israel has a right to 
defend herself--I fully understand that--but that it's time for her to 
withdraw from the occupied territory.
    And the reason I feel that way is that I began to worry that the 
foundations necessary to achieve lasting peace were becoming eroded. In 
order for Israel to be able to exist, it requires the Arab world's 
willingness to encourage the conditions so that she can exist. And in 
order for there to be a Palestinian state, which I support, there needs 
to be the conditions so that a Palestinian state can exist. And those 
conditions were becoming eroded, so we acted strong.
    I'm sending our very capable Secretary of State, Colin Powell, to 
the region. He goes there with the mandate of working with the 
leadership in that part of the world, as well as with the European Union 
and others, to implement what the U.N. resolution--a recent U.N. 
Resolution 1042, which lays out the steps necessary to eventually get to 
a political solution.
    Mr. McDonald. But has this come a little late, Mr. President? The 
Secretary of State has been there before; the Vice President has been in 
the region; you've had General Zinni there.
    The President. I thought my speech came right about the right time.
    Mr. McDonald. But for so long now, for many, many days, if not 
weeks, people could see this situation spiraling rapidly out of control.
    The President. Well, the problem is, you can't see the killers. You 
can't see the suicide bombers. And what we're trying to do is to rally 
the world to expose them and to expose those who are funding them and to 
say to Iran, ``Stop it,'' and to Syria, ``You must choose.''
    That's the problem. The invisible part of everything that you 
thought you could see, you can't see, which is killers who are going 
into Passover-type celebrations and killing people, killing innocent 
people. And we've got to stop that, Trevor; we just have to. In order 
for there to be peace, there must be--there must be a world effort to 
stop the suicide and the killers. Those people kill for one reason: to 
stop the peace, to stop a plan from coming into effect.
    And this silly notion about somehow our Government hasn't been 
involved is just silly. I mean, we've had Zinni there, as you said, the 
Vice President's there. The Secretary of State has been there in the 
past; he's going back.
    Mr. McDonald. So what is different this time?
    The President. Well, this time hopefully there is a resolve. 
Hopefully, there's a resolve to the needless killing and the loss of 
innocent life that responsible citizens stand up and say, ``Enough is 
enough.'' That's what I said today, ``Enough is enough.'' And I believe 
that.
    I'll tell you something else that is different. Crown Prince 
Abdullah of Saudi Arabia laid out his initiative that essentially says 
the Arab world must recognize Israel's right to exist,

[[Page 572]]

which was a significant change, and we've got to seize on that bold 
initiative.

Chairman Yasser Arafat of the Palestinian Authority

    Mr. McDonald. Will Secretary of State Colin Powell meet Yasser 
Arafat?
    The President. I have no idea yet. I'll tell you what he is going to 
do. He's going to go work with the leadership to bring people together. 
My worry is, is that Yasser Arafat can't perform. He's been given plenty 
of opportunities.
    Mr. McDonald. Has he forfeited your trust?
    The President. He certainly hasn't earned it. Here's a man who said 
that he has signed onto Oslo, that he was going to fight off terror. We 
thought we had a cease-fire arranged. We were that close to a cease-
fire, and the next thing we know, there's a suicide bomber that hits. We 
thought a couple of months ago that we thought we had an agreement. The 
next thing we know, he's ordered a shipment of arms from Iran.
    Now, he's got a long way to go, and it starts with him proving that 
he can lead. He has let his people down, and there are others in the 
region who can lead and those who have called upon those others in the 
region to lead. And Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia has taken a 
leadership role. President Mubarak of Egypt is a leader. King Abdullah 
of Jordan is a leader.
    And so Colin Powell is going to go to the region to gather those 
leaders up and to start a process hopefully that will lead to lasting 
peace.
    Mr. McDonald. You come pretty close to suggesting that Palestinians 
should look for another leader.
    The President. It's up to them. Far be it from the American 
President to get to decide who leads what country. I'm just telling you 
since I've been the President, the man hasn't performed.

Situation in the Middle East

    Mr. McDonald. Is there an emerging difference between the United 
States and Britain about how this should be solved?
    The President. No, I don't think so.
    Mr. McDonald. Let me tell you, the British Foreign Secretary, Jack 
Straw, says sending in tanks to Ramallah and to Bethlehem is no response 
to suicide bombers. You seem to imply that anything should be done to 
counter terrorism. That's the difference.
    The President. No, actually----
    Mr. McDonald. And a significant one.
    The President. I think I just told you that I asked for Israel to 
withdraw the cities which she now occupies, so the extent that that's 
what the Foreign Secretary says, that's fine. The man I talked to is 
Tony Blair, and I talked to him this morning and informed him about what 
I was going to say. And I gave him--he was the first foreign leader, by 
the way, I called to detail the speech that I delivered at 11 a.m. here 
in the U.S. And he was, one, appreciative of the phone call, it seemed 
like, and two, applauded what was going to be in the speech. He thought, 
at least--I hate to put words in somebody else's mouth, but from my 
perspective----
    Mr. McDonald. [Inaudible]--that it was about time, did he----
    The President. Those are your words, not his.

War on Terrorism

    Mr. McDonald. Mr. President, turning to the war on terror, which you 
declared in the aftermath of the events of September 11th, hasn't it 
reached something of a stalemate?
    The President. Is that a serious question?
    Mr. McDonald. I meant it as a serious question.
    The President. Well, it's not. Well, no. Of course, we haven't had a 
stalemate. We're winning. I mean, we just arrested a guy named Abu 
Zubaydah. We crushed the Taliban; they're no longer in office. We've got 
schools open for the first time in Afghanistan, where girls are going. 
For the first time, young girls are going to school. It's been a 
glorious series of victories, thanks to friends such as the British.
    We've got a lot more work to do--don't get me wrong--but I don't 
think there's any stalemate to it.

[[Page 573]]

Afghanistan

    Mr. McDonald. At your request, the British are sending 1,700 more 
troops to Afghanistan. Is there a danger that they might become sucked 
into a never-ending commitment?
    The President. No. No, it's not, because we've got a plan on how to 
get out. But first things first. We've got to find those Al Qaida 
killers and bring them to justice. What the world needs to know is there 
are still a lot of these murderers on the loose. And that's what they 
are. And anybody who thinks that we can rehabilitate them just simply 
doesn't know the nature of the enemy.

Usama bin Laden

    Mr. McDonald. And their leaders--on the loose, too.
    The President. Well, there's one less on the loose. And we don't 
know if Mr. bin Laden is on the loose. I don't know if you know, but I 
hadn't heard from him in the----
    Mr. McDonald. I was hoping you would tell us what you think. Is bin 
Laden alive?
    The President. I have no idea. But I'll tell you this: He's not 
making a lot of noise these days. And maybe he's dug in one of those 
holes, but there's not a hole deep enough. They're going to get him if 
he's still alive. And these people are killers, and that's the way we're 
going to treat them. They're international crooks, and we're going to 
hunt them down one by one.
    I know there's a certain kind of anxiety amongst people in the 
press, for example, who want this thing over with tomorrow. But that's 
not the nature of this war. This is a different kind of war. This is a 
war that requires incredible patience and resolve. And make no mistake 
about it: I've got the patience and the resolve necessary to win, and so 
does my country. We're united in this effort, and we're going to do 
whatever it takes to rout out these terrorist organizations.

President Saddam Hussein of Iraq

    Mr. McDonald. You've been very clear, Mr. President, turning to the 
question of Iraq, that it's part of an axis of evil, as I think you 
called it. When you meet Tony Blair in the coming days, will you be 
discussing the possibility of an attack on Iraq?
    The President. I'll be talking a lot of things about Iraq with him, 
starting with the fact that we both recognize that Saddam Hussein is a 
dangerous man and he harbors and develops weapons of mass destruction--
make no mistake about it--that he has got a variety of weapons that can 
harm mankind and he's not afraid to use them, including on his own 
people.
    And so we'll be discussing that, and we'll be discussing all 
options. I have no immediate plans to conduct military operations. But 
as one of my closest friends, personal friends amongst the world 
leaders, and one of my Nation's closest allies, of course we're going to 
discuss all options.
    Mr. McDonald. I take your point about no immediate plans, but in a 
sense, have you made up your mind that Iraq must be attacked?
    The President. I made up my mind that Saddam needs to go. That's 
about all I'm willing to share with you.
    Mr. McDonald. And you would take action to make sure that happens? 
And of course, if the logic of the war on terror means anything--which 
you have explained--then Saddam must go?
    The President. That's what I just said. The policy of my Government 
is that he goes.
    Mr. McDonald. People think that Saddam Hussein has had no links with 
the Al Qaida network, and I'm wondering why you have----
    The President. The worst thing that could happen would be to allow a 
nation like Iraq, run by Saddam Hussein, to develop weapons of mass 
destruction and then team up with terrorist organizations so they can 
blackmail the world. I'm not going to let that happen.
    Mr. McDonald. So you're going to go after him?
    The President. As I told you, the policy of my Government is that 
Saddam Hussein not be in power.
    Mr. McDonald. And how are you going to achieve this, Mr. President?
    The President. Wait and see.
    Mr. McDonald. Do you think that the international coalition, which 
you--which an administration once assembled for the Gulf

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war, when Kuwait was invaded and the aggressors were undoubtedly the 
Iraqis--do you think that that international coalition can be assembled 
again for another attack on Iraq?
    The President. I think the coalition can be assembled to demand that 
Iraq let inspectors back in, like she agreed to do right after the Gulf 
war. I don't know why the man won't let inspectors in. He's probably got 
something to hide, don't you think?
    And the idea of having this man, who is willing to murder his own 
people, have weapons of mass destruction--I'm not going to let that 
happen, and neither will the free world. So I'm confident that we can 
lead a coalition to pressure Saddam Hussein and to deal with Saddam 
Hussein.
    Mr. McDonald. You say you are confident about this coalition. 
Certainly, Britain, there are grave misgivings about it. And Tony Blair 
is under pressure within his own party: 51 percent of the British people 
think, in an opinion poll, that Saddam Hussein should not be attacked at 
this time. How are you going to do that? How are you going to accomplish 
that?
    The President. How am I going to change the minds of Britain?
    Mr. McDonald. And a number of European countries, too.
    The President. Well, we'll just watch and see what happens. I'm 
going to work closely with our friends and consult with our friends, 
like I am doing.
    One thing Tony Blair does understand is that Saddam Hussein is a 
dangerous person. And I admire his courage for speaking the truth, and 
he speaks clearly about the truth. And that's one of the reasons why I 
like his advice and treasure his counsel.
    Mr. McDonald. So what you are calling on Saddam Hussein to do is to 
let the inspectors back in----
    The President. Yes, of course. That's what he said he would do.
    Mr. McDonald. And that's the way he can avoid----
    The President. But this is not an issue of inspectors. This is an 
issue of him upholding his word that he would not develop weapons of 
mass destruction.
    Mr. McDonald. So whether he allows the inspectors in or not, he is 
on the list to be attacked; he's the next target?
    The President. You keep trying to put--you're one these clever 
reporters that keeps trying to put words in my mouth.
    Mr. McDonald. Far from that, Mr. President.
    The President. Well, I'm afraid you do, sir. But nevertheless, 
you've had my answer on this subject. And I have no plans to attack on 
my desk. A policy of my Government is for Saddam not to be in office. 
It's in the interests of the free world that he not be in office, and 
it's in the interests of the free world that he not be allowed to 
develop weapons of mass destruction. And the first thing is he must show 
us whether or not he has weapons of mass destruction, just like he 
promised he would do.
    Mr. McDonald. And you will have to build the job of the coalition to 
make sure that this----
    The President. We've got a vast coalition for freedom right now. And 
I talk to leaders all the time, and of course, the subject of Iraq, 
amongst other subjects, comes up. And I explained to them precisely what 
I'm explaining to you. And most people understand that history has 
called us into action. History has given us an opportunity to fight for 
freedom, and we all will fight for freedom.

Situation in the Middle East

    Mr. McDonald. Mr. President, to really put your stamp on a solution 
in the Middle East--which will help in other ways in fighting this war 
against terror, as you, yourself, have said--might you be willing to 
convene a summit to get both sides together and to discuss these 
problems and to try to resolve these?
    The President. Well, we've tried summits in the past, as you may 
remember. There wasn't one all that long ago where a summit was called 
and nothing happened, and as a result we had a significant intifada in 
the area.
    The only time that's appropriate for a U.S. President to call a 
summit, when it looks like something can get done. And in the meantime, 
the Secretary of State is very much involved in the Middle East. And I 
don't know

[[Page 575]]

if you want to call it a summit, but he's going to have meetings with 
leaders, attempting to get in place Resolution 1042, which the Security 
Council has agreed to, which will lead to a political settlement--if all 
the parties participate.
    Mr. McDonald. Mr. President, thank you, sir.
    The President. You're welcome. Glad you're here.
    Mr. McDonald. Thank you, sir.
[At this point, the network took a commercial break.]

Pressures of the Presidency

    Mr. McDonald. How do you cope with the pressures----
    The President. Well, I'm a man--I believe in prayer. I believe in 
exercise. I've got a great wife; balance, as they say. Obviously, I'm 
reminded of what's important in life. We've got a fabulous team. We've 
got one of the great administrations in American history, and it gives 
me great comfort to know that the advice I get is honest, 
straightforward advice from very experienced people.

Aftermath of September 11

    Mr. McDonald. Has anything surprised you about the pressures, having 
these crises--have there been any surprises since you came into the Oval 
Office?
    The President. I think the surprise was how clearly I saw what we 
needed to do after 9/11. I shouldn't say surprised, I guess. Pleased 
with how clearly I saw things. I was obviously emotional, but I knew 
what the country needed to do. And I was really pleased with the way the 
country responded.
    Mr. McDonald. How do you think America has changed after those 
terrible events of September the 11th?
    The President. Well, I think a lot of people are now taking an 
assessment about what's important in life. I hope moms and dads are 
saying, ``What can I do to be better mother or father?'' I know a lot of 
my fellow Americans have asked, ``What can we do to help fight on the 
war against terror?'' And I answer by saying, ``Love somebody. Be a good 
neighbor. Help some kid who just wonders whether the American experience 
is meant for them, or teach somebody how to read.'' In other words, 
there's a lot of small acts that help define the face of America, which 
really do contribute to standing up against evil.
    You've probably heard me speak. I truly believe that this is a fight 
against evil. These killers are evil people. They've hijacked a 
religion, and they want to commit murder in order to justify the goals 
and the ambitions of a few people.
    Mr. McDonald. You understand that there are, sort of, different 
perceptions about this? For example, I heard after you made your latest 
speech about the crisis in the Middle East, a Palestinian spokesman 
said, ``Yes, but we also live under the terrorism of occupation.'' Do 
you understand that?
    The President. Sure, people have--look, my job isn't to try to 
nuance. My job is to tell people what I think. And when I think there's 
an axis of evil, I say it. I think moral clarity is important, if you 
believe in freedom. And people can make all kinds of excuses, but there 
are some truths involved.
    And one of the truths is, they're sending suicide killers in--
because they hate Israel. That's a truth. And you can justify it any way 
you want, but nevertheless, the role of the President, as far as I'm 
concerned, is to stand up and tell the truth, and I did today. I made it 
as plain as I could. I try to speak as plainly as I can. I know people 
don't like it when I say there's evil; this is evil versus good. But 
that's not going to stop me from saying what I think is right.

Situation in the Middle East

    Mr. McDonald. Your Palestinian interlocutors will say that they--you 
have to balance that against the fact that they live, as they say, under 
this occupation. They also have increasing settlements. And there is a 
kind of tyranny, they say, they would claim----
    The President. Well, in my speech today, I recognized that they need 
to stop the building of settlements. And it is my Government that laid 
out the Tenet, and then the Mitchell plans, which both sides agreed to, 
which will lead to peace. The problem is, they haven't lived up to the 
agreement. And I'm calling

[[Page 576]]

on the Palestinians to live up to the agreement. And I'm calling on the 
Israelis to pull out of the occupied territory, the places, the cities 
they've occupied recently, trying to set up a situation where we can 
achieve peace. That's what I want. I want peace. And I believe it can 
happen, otherwise I wouldn't be working so hard on it. I'm an optimist. 
As you can see, the way we've got the Oval Office here designed, it's 
open, and it's optimistic, and it's sunny. That's what I feel about 
life.
    It was right in this room where Vladimir Putin came in, and I had a 
fantastic meeting with him here. Finally, we're getting rid of the cold 
war, where we hated each other. You know, if you'd been sitting in the 
fifties, saying, ``Can you ever imagine a U.S. President and a Russian 
President sitting here and talking like friends,'' you'd have said, ``Of 
course not. How farfetched is that?''
    That's what I used as an example today as what is possible in the 
Middle East. And I think it is possible. All of us are going to have to 
work to achieve that goal.

Possibility of a Peace Summit

    Mr. McDonald. But you're not very much into, sort of, big, set peace 
summits to do that?
    The President. Well, he'd better--the problem is, the American 
President, when he calls a summit, better get it right.
    Mr. McDonald. He puts his personal reputation on the line.
    The President. This doesn't have nothing to do with reputation. It 
has everything to do with the consequences if it fails. It's not the 
President--see, that's the problem. It's not all about the person. It's 
about the people who live in the region. If a summit fails, if the 
President puts--lays it out there and nothing happens, generally the 
status--the followup is worse than the status quo.
    And that's what Presidents must understand. We're dealing with 
people's lives and expectations. And I think there's a better way to 
achieve what we want, is peace. Someday that may happen, don't get me 
wrong. Someday you may say, ``I remember when I talked to old Bush, and 
there he is, sitting there with a big summit.'' But now is not the time 
for one. I've got a different strategy.

Note: The interview was taped at 3:07 p.m. in the Library at the White 
House. In his remarks, the President referred to U.S. Special Envoy to 
the Middle East Gen. Anthony Zinni, USMC (Ret.); President Hosni Mubarak 
of Egypt; King Abdullah II of Jordan; Prime Minister Tony Blair and 
Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs Jack Straw of 
the United Kingdom; Abu Zubaydah and Usama bin Laden, leaders of the Al 
Qaida terrorist organization; and President Vladimir Putin of Russia. 
The President also referred to the Tenet plan, the Israeli-Palestinian 
cease-fire and security plan of June 13, 2001, negotiated by Director of 
Central Intelligence George J. Tenet; and the Mitchell report, the 
Report of the Sharm el-Sheikh Fact-Finding Committee, issued April 30, 
2001. A tape was not available for verification of the content of this 
interview. This item was not received in time for publication in the 
appropriate issue.