[Weekly Compilation of Presidential Documents Volume 34, Number 16 (Monday, April 20, 1998)]
[Pages 642-648]
[Online from the Government Publishing Office, www.gpo.gov]

<R04>
Remarks at the ESPN Townhall Meeting on Race in Houston

April 14, 1998

[ESPN commentator Bob Ley, who served as moderator, welcomed the 
President and asked what such a dialog on race and sports could bring to 
the Nation at large.]

    The President. Well, first of all, let me thank you and ESPN for 
doing this for the second time, and thank our panelists for being 
willing to put themselves on the line and be honest and open and 
accountable to the audience.
    I'd like to say a couple of things I think we can achieve. First of 
all, America, rightly or wrongly, is a sports-crazy country and we

[[Page 643]]

often see games as a metaphor or a symbol of what we are as a people. So 
I think by dealing with both the positive things which have happened, in 
terms of opportunity for people of all races and people getting together 
and working together, and the continuing challenges in athletics, I 
think just by doing that we learn more about the rest of the country and 
what needs to be done.
    Beyond that, I think that it's important that people see that in 
athletics in America, that the rules are fair, that people get their 
fair chance, and I would hope, too, that the concern for the lives of 
the players off the field, off the court, and what they're doing when 
their athletic careers are over, and whether they still will be full and 
equal members of society, closing the opportunity gaps that have existed 
historically between the races in our country--whether there's something 
we can do about that, because that clearly will have larger implications 
for the society as a whole.
    But all of us, as Americans, I think, should be both proud of how 
far we've come when we see what racial and ethnic and religious tensions 
are doing in other parts of the world, and at the same time should be 
very determined to continue to meet the challenges that still exist, 
because our country is becoming more and more racially and ethnically 
diverse. And if we can be one America, celebrating our diversity but 
knowing what we have in common, then it's the greatest asset I can 
imagine for us to take into the 21st century. But it's something we 
really have to work at, as I'm sure all these folks will tell us.

[At this point, Mr. Ley asked former football player and actor Jim Brown 
for his impression of the condition of race relations in sports since 
the previous ESPN program on race 14 months ago. Mr. Brown said 
tremendous progress has been made and that white America has provided 
African-Americans with opportunities that should be taken advantage of 
economically. Georgetown University basketball coach John Thompson 
described the need for frank and open discussions about many college 
athletes' lack of competency outside of sports. Keyshawn Johnson, wide 
receiver for the New York Jets, stated that during his rookie year in 
the National Football League, contrary to what he had been told, he 
found that all players were not treated equally. Carmen Policy, 
president of the San Francisco 49ers, responded that the youth of the 
athletes entering professional sports had to be taken into 
consideration. Mr. Ley then asked about hiring practices in sports, 
particularly for head coaching positions in the NFL. Mr. Policy said 
that team owners would hire the best candidate for the job regardless of 
that person's race, but that the selection process itself is flawed. Mr. 
Ley then asked Minnesota Vikings head coach Dennis Green, who is 
African-American, how he broke the barrier. Mr. Green referred to his 
accomplishment as jumping a hurdle and said that discussions like this 
would focus attention on the issue. He pointed out, however, that out of 
15 coaching vacancies in the last 3 years, not a single position went to 
an African-American. Mr. Ley asked the President if a conclusion should 
be drawn from that statistic.]

    The President. It says something. We just have to make sure we know 
what it says. For example, very often we assume that those numbers are 
there, there's some--maybe even an illegal practice, which may not be 
true. But if you go back to what Carmen said, one of the things that 
I've seen--or go back to what John Thompson said--and you know, 
Georgetown is my alma mater so I always try to cheer for John and try 
never to disagree with him. [Laughter] But there's some--let's assume 
that there is absolutely no conscious racism in any of these decisions. 
I have been now in an executive position--I've been President for 5\1/2\ 
years nearly; I was Governor of my State for 12 years. I've hired 
hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people. In every position I've 
ever held, I've always hired more minorities than my predecessors. When 
I was Governor, I hired more minorities, appointed more than all my 
predecessors combined. No one ever accused me of giving anybody anything 
for which they weren't qualified.
    But what I found out was, if that was a goal and you knew it was 
important, there was a certain network by which--the easy network by 
which those decisions are made, and you've got to break through the 
network and change the rules if you want to do it.

[[Page 644]]

    Mr. Ley. So the numbers are important then?
    The President. Numbers are important. But my reaction was, when 
Keyshawn's book came out--and you know, I'm a big football fan, I follow 
this, and I saw him play in college--is, you know, if I were running his 
team, I'd just want to make as many touchdowns as I could, you know. And 
what I think you have to do is to kind of--Carmen went around here and 
he really prepared for this tonight. So I think that's what we need 
people to do for these coaching positions. We need to think if this is a 
problem, we want more minority coaches in the NFL, we want more minority 
coaches in the college ranks, you have to say--and we're making an 
honest effort to pick the most qualified people, why aren't we producing 
them?
    I'd say there's something wrong with the recruitment system, with 
the pool, and you've got to rethink that and make a real effort. But my 
experience, my personal experience is, if you make a real effort there 
are lots of people out there. Since I believe intelligence and ability 
are evenly distributed across racial and ethnic groups, if you look at 
it, you can find it.

[At this point, Mr. Ley asked John Moores, owner of the Major League 
Baseball San Diego Padres, if he was satisfied with minority 
representation in administrative positions in baseball. Mr. Moores said 
he was not and noted that while baseball is the most ethnically diverse 
sport, well-qualified minority manager candidates have been passed over. 
Former baseball player and current ESPN baseball analyst Joe Morgan said 
he believed progress is being made and that he wanted to see equal 
interview opportunity given to all candidates for all types of 
vacancies. Vince Dooley, athletic director at the University of Georgia, 
was asked why 93 percent of college football coaches are white and 94 
percent of the time they are replaced with white candidates, but before 
answering, he commended the President for the race initiative.]

    The President. Thank you.

[Mr. Dooley said college football needs more examples like Mr. Thompson, 
Mr. Green, and Tubby Smith, head coach of the NCAA champion Kentucky 
Wildcats men's basketball team. St. John's University basketball player 
Felipe Lopez discussed the benefits of ethnic diversity in sports. 
Former track star Jackie Joyner-Kersee, who currently runs a foundation 
in East St. Louis, Illinois, which helps youth, discussed the need for 
action to follow up on the dialog, in order to provide more examples for 
minority youth and to combat the subtle racism in business networking 
that keeps the upper strata exclusive.

    After a commercial break, Mr. Ley asked Mr. Johnson about racial 
stereotyping by professional athletes. Mr. Johnson replied that the 
media create the stereotypes in their coverage but management and 
coaching often reinforce them. At this point, Mr. Ley called on audience 
member Michael Waters, a high school student body president, who asked 
Mr. Brown if the stereotype of blacks being more athletically adept than 
whites was a form of discrimination against whites. Mr. Brown dismissed 
the questions of stereotyping as missing the point of the discussion and 
then reiterated his emphasis on economics, saying that African-American 
coaches and athletes making millions of dollars in salaries should be 
hiring black lawyers, agents, and managers exclusively. Mr. Johnson 
injected that his attorney and investment advisers are African-American, 
but were hired for their skills rather than their race. Ms. Joyner-
Kersee added that in her foundation she tries to give opportunities to 
those who may not get them otherwise. Mr. Thompson responded to Mr. 
Brown by saying he would not terminate his relationships with whites who 
had helped him achieve his success, and that society causes individuals 
to think in such racially limited terms. He then stated that blacks 
don't want to feel they have to be perfect to get the job but only want 
the same opportunity whites have to try. Mr. Dooley commented that he 
pays more attention to a candidate's history of success than to an 
interview. Mr. Ley then asked the President for his views on the 
subject.]

    The President. Well, first of all, I appreciate the honesty of the 
interchange and that shows basically the--actually the progress that's 
been made on this issue in athletics. Why? Because I basically--I agree 
with the point Jim Brown made, but I respect what

[[Page 645]]

John Thompson said. That is, if you have personal experiences with 
people who have helped you to achieve their goals, even if they're of 
different races, and you're not going to turn around and abandon your 
friends and abandon people who are doing a good job for you. And that's 
good.
    The point Jim is making, however, is a different one, and I'd just 
like to sort of--because when we get to the last section, there's 
another issue I want us to get to, which is related to this--but what 
he's pointing out, there's still a huge opportunity gap in our society 
by race in terms of economic standing. That's the only point he was 
making--and that if we want a stable society, we want large middle 
classes among African-Americans, large middle classes among Hispanic-
Americans, large middle classes among Asian-American immigrants--first 
generation immigrants. That's the point Jim's making. And that if a 
group, a certain group within the African-American community, let's say, 
has amassed this wealth and then has to reinvest it, to the extent that 
they can also help to create this larger middle class while helping 
themselves and doing something, that's a good thing.
    I think you can say that and still respect John's decision, which I 
think we all do, and respect any other individual decisions that would 
cross racial lines. But the effort to create a middle class, people 
whose names will never be in the newspaper but who helped to build a 
big, stable society, I think that's a very important goal for us here.
    Mr. Ley. Do you think athletes have a special responsibility to have 
a social conscience to act, to be involved in the communities, or is 
that unfair?
    The President. No, I don't think it's unfair. I think--first of all, 
I think anybody with a special gift has a special responsibility. And if 
you've got a special gift, whatever the gift is--if you're a great 
singer, if you're great at making money, if you're a brilliant 
scientist--I think if you have a special gift, if God gave you something 
that other people don't normally have, and no matter how hard they work 
they can't get there, then you owe more back. That's what I believe. So, 
yes, I believe that.

[After a commercial break, Mr. Ley asked Mr. Green about access to the 
power structure elite in the NFL. Mr. Green responded that there needs 
to be equal access and opportunity for ownership of teams. Mr. Brown 
suggested that acquiring ownership is simply a matter of amassing enough 
money, and that African-Americans need to pool their economic clout to 
attain the power ownership provides. Mr. Thompson agreed, saying that 
the lack of strong relationships between financial institutions and the 
African-American community undermines participation at the ownership 
level. Ms. Joyner-Kersee noted that companies like Nike and sports 
celebrities Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods, who endorse Nike products, 
have used their wealth and fame to give back to the community. Mr. Brown 
reiterated his position on African-American self-reliance, putting forth 
the idea that pooling money to form a capital base replaces the need for 
establishing relationships with financial institutions. Mr. Ley then 
took a question from audience member Fernando Tamayo, a senior at 
Washington High School, who pointed out that Hispanic-Americans had not 
yet been mentioned, although they are the fastest growing minority in 
America. Mr. Lopez agreed and asserted that the more the Hispanic 
community works together, the more opportunity they will get.]

    The President. Let me make one observation about this. Hispanic-
Americans are the fastest growing ethnic group in our country. 
Historically, they have done very well in America through an enormous 
work ethic and an enormous commitment to family.
    There was a wonderful movie a couple of years ago with Edward James 
Olmos and a number of other Hispanic actors and actresses called ``Mi 
Familia.'' It was a wonderful movie; some of you may have seen it. But 
we have a problem today that athletics could play a role in solving with 
the Hispanic community, and I hope we'll get into this a little more in 
the last section--that is, what about all the athletes whose names you 
never know, who play in junior high or high school or college or even in 
the pros? And what about the rest of their lives? I hope we can talk 
about that a little bit before we leave.
    But last year, for the first time in modern history, the graduation 
rates from high school

[[Page 646]]

of African-Americans and white Americans were virtually identical--the 
first time ever. The graduation rates of Hispanics is much lower; the 
dropout rate is higher. Part of that is because there has been a 
heritage in Hispanic immigrant families of kids dropping out of school 
and going to work to support the family.
    The problem is, today if you don't have a high school diploma and a 
couple years of college, it's hard to get a job where your income grows 
over time. So one of the things that I'm hoping is that we'll have more 
Hispanic young people in athletic programs and at least in high school; 
that will get more coaches to convince them and their brothers and 
sisters to stay in high school and hopefully go on to college. Because 
America is not going to function very well if we have a Hispanic dropout 
rate that's 20 percent higher than the rest of society.

[Mr. Lopez agreed, saying that although basketball got him into college, 
he wants his education to make him more than just an athlete and he 
hopes to use his education and success in ways that give back to his 
community. Audience member Martin Garcia, a senior at Jesse H. Jones 
Senior High School, asked Mr. Moores why Little League baseball is not 
promoted in the inner cities. Mr. Moores responded that it was a good 
question and that the country would benefit from more support at that 
level. Mr. Morgan agreed and said that resources in the United States 
are not being adequately tapped as they are in foreign countries for 
recruitment of baseball players. He noted the success of basketball and 
its outreach programs for inner-city youth and urged baseball to do the 
same.]

    The President. I just wanted to follow up on something Joe said and 
something that the questioner said because he made a slightly different 
point. You know, we had one of the best World Series last year we've had 
in a month of Sundays. I mean, everybody loved the World Series--it goes 
down to the last game, at the end of the game. And everybody was 
thrilled with the story of the young Cuban pitcher and how his mother 
finally got out of Cuba to come watch him pitch. And he's saying, ``But 
I've got a brother at home who's an even better pitcher than I am.'' And 
as strained as our relationships with Cuba are, it's virtually more 
likely that you can be a Cuban player in Major League baseball than a 
Cuban-American from Miami or New Jersey.
    And so it's not just African-Americans. You've got all these 
Hispanic-Americans here who are in inner cities. And we now have got 
some very exciting Asian--Japanese players in Major League baseball. But 
America is full of Asian immigrants. And, the baseball folks who are 
here, I really think that we haven't answered it fully. The truth is 
that there are tens of thousands of kids in every State in this country 
who are not in any kind of athletic program unless they're in a football 
or basketball program.
    Now, the mayor here and the former mayor, Mr. Lanier, who is also 
here, he started a program with thousands of inner-city kids in soccer 
and golf programs. And it may be that--I'm just saying that maybe one 
specific thing that could come out of this meeting is if we could 
actually bring baseball back to kids that aren't in the football or 
basketball programs, it might be a great gift to the future.

[After a commercial break, Mr. Johnson asked those on the panel in 
administrative or ownership positions why athletes have difficulty 
getting positions with the organizations after their playing days are 
over. He also asked if NFL owners would give an African-American-owned 
franchise equal opportunity. Mr. Policy responded that the Nation was 
awakening to problems in race relations, including inequities in the 
sports business, and was taking steps to correct them. Audience member 
Dennis S. Brown said that he recalled hearing a pro quarterback state 
that black and white players did not shower together, and he asked Mr. 
Johnson to respond. Mr. Johnson replied that his experience was that, 
for the most part, everybody mingles in the locker room and any racial 
comments there are made jokingly and understood that way as well.]

    Mr. Ley. All right, we were at this point supposed to be wrapping 
things up, but the President has graciously agreed to spend a little bit 
more time with us this evening, so

[[Page 647]]

 we'll have a chance to ask some more and answer some more questions.
    The President. That little boy, you'd better ask him, that young 
man----
    Mr. Ley. We're going there, sir.

[A 13-year-old boy introduced himself as Jesse, said he was half 
Mexican-American and half Irish, and asked Mr. Morgan if he ever 
discourages minority youth from focusing on professional sports as a 
goal and encourages them to concentrate instead on school. Mr. Morgan 
answered that he felt it is good to encourage a mix of the two, that 
succeeding in both areas is not impossible. Mr. Thompson asserted that 
if opportunity is provided, people will be educated, but that too many 
young people do not see opportunity ahead and therefore shirk the 
education. Audience member Tiffany Singleton, a senior at a high school 
in Houston, asked Ms. Joyner-Kersee if she felt doubly obligated to 
carry expectations as both a woman and an African-American. Ms. Joyner-
Kersee said she puts no added pressure on herself but hopes her 
achievements inspire others. Then another audience member, Matt Sharp, a 
junior at Elks Lake High School, asked the President if it was fair for 
minority athletes who do poorly in academics and whose SAT's are low to 
get scholarships over white students who are not athletes but have 
excelled academically.]

    The President. Let me answer the question. I had a problem in 
California when they voted--and California has been very good to me, but 
the people and I disagree with these things--[laughter]. California 
voted to repeal their affirmative action admissions policy. And I made 
the argument that they would give a minority athlete a scholarship under 
the new system because of his or her athletic ability and have another 
member of a minority group who had higher grades and higher SAT scores, 
but no athletic ability, couldn't get a scholarship. So it wasn't just a 
race issue.
    Let me say what I think about that. First of all, I think colleges 
and universities have a right to have athletic programs and they have to 
recruit if they want to have them. The real issue is we should have a 
system in America, since we now know that it is necessary to have at 
least 2 years of education after high school if you want to have even a 
good job with a growing income for younger people, and it's better--we 
have a vested interest of the Nation in seeing that every young person 
like you gets to go to college. What I've tried to do is make sure that 
money would never be an obstacle to anyone, and that's really ultimately 
the way to resolve that. Every college and university has to make up its 
mind; do they want to have an athletic program; then they'll want to 
compete for the best athletes--they're going to do that. But it should 
never, ever be at the expense of providing academic opportunities to 
people who are qualified.
    Let me just say, since I've been in office, we passed a HOPE 
scholarship, which gives everybody a $1,500 tax credit for the first 2 
years of college, tuition and tax credits for junior and senior year and 
graduate school. We've got more Pell grants, more work-study positions, 
more national service positions--we've got more opportunity. And, I 
think--I'll say this--for me, that's the answer. I don't think--
otherwise, a college simply can't have an athletic program or recruit 
its athletes.
    My view is they ought to be able to recruit athletes, but they ought 
to give enough scholarships so that every young, gifted person who can 
get admitted to the school should be able to go without regard to the 
money that they or their families have. That's what I believe.

[After a commercial break, Mr. Thompson responded to Matt's question, 
saying that students from wealthy families and children of alumni also 
receive special preference from universities. Mr. Ley then asked the 
President to summarize his thoughts on the meeting.]

    The President. Well, I feel better about my country than I did 
before we started. And I think all of you do, don't you? [Applause]
    I want to applaud the panelists for their candor and their honesty. 
I want to thank the members of the audience for the questions that were 
asked.
    I want to say just two things. Number one, I think it's obvious that 
athletics in a way is leading America toward a more harmonious, united 
society, but we still have work

[[Page 648]]

to do--in the coaching ranks and the management and the scouting and all 
of that. We ought to keep working on it.
    The second thing I'd like to say is, I hope that everybody who's in 
an athletic program also learns good life skills to make good choices, 
good decisions; can take something out of the teamwork, the rules of 
things that you get from being in athletics so that if they play in high 
school but not in college that they're still better off and they're 
better citizens.
    The same thing if they play in college, not in pros. The same thing 
when they finish their pro career. We didn't talk much about that 
tonight, but I thing that's important--that the lessons learned from 
athletics carry over into good citizenship, including attitudes about 
people of different races. If that happens, we're going to be a lot 
better off.

Note: The President spoke at 7 p.m. in the Cullen Theater at Wortham 
Theater Center. In his remarks, he referred to former Houston Mayor Bob 
Lanier. The townhall meeting was broadcast live on the ESPN cable 
network as ``Sports and Race: Running in Place?'' The meeting was part 
of ``One America: The President's Initiative on Race.''