[Weekly Compilation of Presidential Documents Volume 34, Number 4 (Monday, January 26, 1998)]
[Pages 116-121]
[Online from the Government Publishing Office, www.gpo.gov]

<R04>
Interview With Mara Liasson and Robert Siegel of National Public Radio

January 21, 1998

Independent Counsel's Investigation

    Mr. Siegel. Mr. President, welcome to the program.
    Many Americans woke up to the news today that the Whitewater 
independent counsel is investigating an allegation that you, or you and 
Vernon Jordan, encouraged a young woman to lie to lawyers in the Paula 
Jones civil suit. Is there any truth to that allegation?
    The President. No, sir, there's not. It's just not true.
    Mr. Siegel. Is there any truth to the allegation of an affair 
between you and the young woman?
    The President. No, that's not true, either. And I have told people 
that I would cooperate in the investigation, and I expect to cooperate 
with it. I don't know any more about it than I've told you and any more 
about it really than you do, but I will cooperate. The charges are not 
true, and I haven't asked anybody to lie.
    Ms. Liasson. Mr. President, where do you think this comes from? Did 
you have any kind of relationship with her that could have been 
misconstrued?
    The President. Mara, I'm going to do my best to cooperate with the 
investigation. I want to know what they want to know from me. I think 
it's more important for me to tell the American people that there wasn't 
improper relations; I didn't ask anybody to lie; and I intend to 
cooperate. And I think that's all I should say right now, so I can get 
back to the work of the country.
    Ms. Liasson. But you're not able to say whether you had any 
conversations with her about her testimony, any conversations at all?
    The President. I think, given the state of this investigation, it 
would be inappropriate for me to say more. I've said everything I think 
that I need to say now. I'm going to be cooperative, and we'll work 
through it.
    Mr. Siegel. But is the fact that in this case, as we understand it, 
a close friend of this young woman was outfitted with a wire, with a 
microphone to record conversations with her at the instruction of the 
Whitewater counsel, does that disturb you? Do you regard that Mr. Starr 
is playing the inquisitor here in this case?
    The President. Well, that's a question the American people will have 
to ask and answer, and the press will have to ask and answer, the bar 
will have to ask and answer. But it's inappropriate for me to comment on 
it at this time. I just have to cooperate, and I'll do that.

Scrutiny of the Presidency

    Mr. Siegel. And a broader question. I understand that you don't want 
to comment on this. There are some commentators--on our network, it 
would be Kevin Phillips, who said that the moral leadership of the 
Presidency justifies the kind of scrutiny that you're receiving. Do you 
agree with that?
    The President. Well, I think there is a lot of scrutiny, and there 
should be, and I think that's important. I'll leave it to others to 
define whether the kind we have received

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in volume, nature, and accuracy, and sometimes downright honesty, is 
appropriate. That's for others to determine.
    I just have a certain number of days here. I came here as not a 
Washington person. I came here to try to change the country and to work 
to build the future of America in a new century. And I just have to try 
to put this in a little box like I have every other thing that has been 
said and done, and go on and do my job. That's what I'm going to work 
at.
    Ms. Liasson. Mr. President, earlier today you said you tried your 
best to contain your natural impulses and get back to work. Were you 
furious? Is that what you were referring to?
    The President. I was. I was.
    Ms. Liasson. And what were you furious about?
    The President. Well, I worked with Prime Minister

Netanyahu until 12:30 last night; I'm getting ready for Mr. Arafat; I'm 
working on the State of the Union; and we've got a lot of big issues out 
there within and beyond our borders. And I don't think any American 
questions the fact that I've worked very hard at this job. And anything 
that's a distraction I dislike.

    Ms. Liasson. Do you see this as a partisan attack? Is that what----
    The President. I didn't say that. I don't know what the facts are. I 
don't know enough to say any more about this. I don't want to get into 
that. You know at least as much about it as I do. I worked until 12:30 
last night on something else. That's why I have given the answer that I 
have given to your questions today.

Middle East Peace Process

    Mr. Siegel. Moving on to the matter you were working on late at 
night last night. First, it seems the message to Mr. Netanyahu from the 
U.S. was, we want to see you withdraw from some part of the West Bank. 
First, what's the message to Yasser Arafat, if you could sum it up?
    The President. Well, first of all, let's talk about what they want. 
I think what Israel wants is a peace process that moves immediately to 
final status negotiations and gives them a stronger sense of security. I 
think what the Palestinians want is a peace process that gives them a 
stronger sense of self-determination and possibility and dignity.
    So what we've tried to do--for 12 months now, ever since the Hebron 
redeployment, we have been out involved in the region, talking to all 
the players--that's not the royal ``we,'' I mean me, the Secretary of 
State, Mr. Ross, Mr. Berger, others involved--trying to analyze what it 
would take to get the peace process back on track. And we've formulated 
some ideas and we talked to the Israeli Prime Minister about them 
yesterday; we're going to talk to Mr. Arafat about them tomorrow. We 
hope that by the time we finish the talk that both sides will be closer 
together than they were before we started. And if they are, then we'll 
try to close. But I think there may be circumstances under which we 
could take a real leap forward in the Middle East peace process if we 
get a break or two.
    Mr. Siegel. This week?
    The President. No, I wouldn't go that far. It's going to take a 
while. We have to work with the Palestinians tomorrow, then we have to 
analyze where we are with both and whether we can go forward. And we may 
not make any progress at all. And if we don't, I'll tell you that.
    Mr. Siegel. I'd like to ask you, though, after spending so much time 
with Mr. Netanyahu on this visit and on other visits, some people regard 
him as a man who always opposed a land for peace settlement to the 
conflict with the Palestinians, certainly wouldn't have negotiated the 
Oslo accords had he been in office then, has never liked them 
particularly. Some would say he's really trying to thwart that process 
and contain the damage from his standpoint. Do you think so?
    The President. No, I can't say that based on what I've seen. I do 
believe--he's made no secret of the fact that he has principle 
differences with the Oslo process, which he has pledged to support. And 
we all know he has a different political coalition, and that indeed, the 
political forces in Israel itself are different than they were even a 
few years ago in terms of the composition of the population, the rise of 
these small parties and immigrant-related intense groups and all that.

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So I think that's all there. I think that, historically, there's been a 
little bit of difference in the kind of the texture of the relationship 
between the Likud Party and the Palestinians and the Labor Party and the 
Palestinians. So there are a lot of layers here.
    But the bottom line is, I think, Mr. Netanyahu is an intelligent man 
who wants to make peace and understands that there has to be some 
formula where some marginal increase in territorial insecurity by giving 
up land is more than offset by a dramatic increase in security by 
changing the feelings of the people, the climate, the capacity for 
growth and opportunity.
    So we're just trying to hammer out what each side will have to do to 
take another step. I'm hopeful.

Situation in Iraq

    Ms. Liasson. Mr. President, in Iraq, diplomacy hasn't worked yet. 
UNSCOM is still barred from doing its job the way it sees fit, getting 
into the sites that it wants to inspect. Yet on the other hand, military 
action also has downsides. It might upset any progress

you're making with allies on other issues. Do you think the U.S. has any 
good choices on Iraq?

    The President. Well, there are no easy choices. If we define good as 
easy, the answer is no. What is the problem? The problem is the weapons 
of mass destruction program, chemical and biological weapons, primarily. 
What is the solution? Letting the UNSCOM inspectors go wherever they 
want. And that means that Saddam Hussein cannot determine when, where, 
and who, when it comes to the UNSCOM teams. So now he says that he's 
going to determine that, and there is not going to be any ``when'' for a 
couple of months, during which time he'll be free to move whatever he 
wants wherever he wants.
    I think that this is a big mistake, and I believe that the United 
Nations will see it as such, and a real thwarting of its position. And 
we just have to see where we go from here.
    Mr. Siegel. Do you feel that to even wield the threat of military 
action, possible military action, that you have to be able to point to 
some progress in the Arab-Israeli negotiations in order to maintain the 
support of U.S. friends in the region? Is there some linkage between 
progress----
    The President. I don't think there is a linkage, a direct linkage. 
It may affect the atmospherics, just, you know, the attitude about 
America. But I think it would be wrong to say there's a direct linkage.
    The main thing is every country in the region and throughout the 
world has a vested interest in seeing that no one who would either use 
or sell weapons of mass destruction--especially chemical and biological 
weapons which could be carried around in small amounts, in little 
valises--that no one who would use or sell them has a big program of 
them, which is why the whole United Nations is against the Iraqi 
program. They need to think long and hard, these countries that have 
been a little squeamish about being firm, whether or not it's possible 
that they could be the victims of this, if not directly from Iraq, from 
some group or another that Iraq sells to in the future.
    So I think we need to be firm, and I'm going to do my best to keep 
rallying support and keep working ahead. I prefer the inspections. I 
prefer the diplomatic pressure. I have not been trigger-happy on this; 
some here in our country think that we should have acted before. But I 
don't think we can rule out any option.

Federal Budget

    Ms. Liasson. Mr. President, moving to domestic policy and the budget 
surplus, Republicans and Democrats on the Hill have already said what 
they want to do with it, either cut taxes or pay down the debt or spend 
more money on social problems. But so far, you've been silent on this. 
And I'm wondering if you are ready to make a commitment to using 
whatever surplus there might be to shoring up the Social Security trust 
funds, making sure that safety net is there for the baby boom generation 
when it retires.
    The President. Well, I'll make a commitment that--in my State of the 
Union Address, I'll announce what I think should be done.
    Q. Well, what do you think should be done?

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    The President. I've decided, but I don't want to announce yet. I 
need to have something to say in the State of the Union that's new.
    But let me say before I say that, I would like to just caution--
we've had 5 great years, and we've always done better than we were 
predicted to do on the deficit. But I think I would still caution the 
Democratic and Republican leaders of Congress from passing some big 5-
year program to spend money through spending programs or tax cuts that 
hasn't yet materialized. We do not yet have a balanced budget. We've 
worked so hard for so long to get this done; I sure hate to start 
counting our chickens before they hatch. So I would like to start with 
that. And then when I speak at the State of the Union, I'll say what I 
think ought to be done.

 Social Security

    Mr. Siegel. Would you like to caution equally against shoring up the 
Social Security fund in that case?
    The President. Well, in general, I believe--my position on Social 
Security is that we need a bipartisan and fairly rapid process to work 
through the options and prepare for the long term health and viability 
of the Social Security system, along with the efforts that are going to 
be made by the Medicare commission, which I'm very hopeful about. One of 
the big things I hope to achieve before I leave office is entitlement 
reform in both major systems. So I tell you, I think that that needs to 
be done, and we're exploring how best to do that.
    Ms. Liasson. Well, we don't want to let you off the hook too easily. 
You're not saying you're against using the surplus to shore up the 
Social Security trust funds?
    The President. I'm not saying one way or the other. I'm saying I'd 
like to have something to announce on State of the Union night.

Proposed Tobacco Agreement

    Mr. Siegel. Mr. President, on tobacco, there is talk on Capitol Hill 
of writing and passing a ``kids only'' bill, as opposed to seeking a 
huge global settlement. That would achieve the aims in theory of raising 
the cost of a pack of cigarettes by so much that it would be beyond the 
reach of teenagers, achieve your major aim, and not take companies off 
the hook for future liability. Are you in favor of such a bill?
    The President. You'd have a ``children's only'' bill that did what? 
I'm sorry, you had a lot of points there.
    Mr. Siegel. Yes, well, first, it would raise the price of a pack of 
cigarettes simply to deter teenage purchasers of cigarettes.
    Ms. Liasson. And strengthen the hand of the FDA, do some marketing 
restrictions, but not be a complete global settlement.
    The President. Well, I would favor doing something like that without 
committing to the specifics if we fail to get a global settlement. But I 
think we owe it to the attorneys general and the others who worked with 
us on this in good faith to try to achieve one, because I think, long 
term, we need to deter teen smoking with more than just a higher price 
tag for cigarettes. I think there are lots of other things that can be 
done. And I think that we ought to have certain benchmarks of 
performance for the tobacco companies, too, which in my view will help 
because then they'll be free to do more--that they even have to spend a 
little more money than they're obligated to under the agreement--if 
they're not meeting the targets, they may decide they ought to do that 
to save even more money down the road.
    So I'm going to look for a global settlement in the tobacco case for 
the benefit of our children. If we fail, then I'll look at something 
else.
    Ms. Liasson. Mr. Clinton, following up on that, you've cautioned 
Congress not to spend the surplus until they have it. Yet you have 
committed $60 billion of some projected tobacco settlement bill before 
it's even passed to new spending. Do you think that's wise? And if you 
don't get a tobacco settlement, are you committed to those programs? 
Will you cut elsewhere in order to keep that new spending?
    The President. Well let me just say this: I will not, under any 
circumstances, favor funding anything I have recommended with the 
surplus--with the projected surplus.
    Ms. Liasson. So, if you don't get the tobacco settlement, you'll cut 
elsewhere?

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    The President. If I don't get--in other words, if we don't get the 
tobacco settlement, we'll either have to cut the size of the child care 
initiative or cut elsewhere, or do something else, because I will not 
just, on my own, get up and propose that we spend the proposed 
settlement, or part of it, on these programs. I think they are terribly 
important, but right now we've got other fish to fry. And we've got to 
make sure--the most important thing is to keep this economy growing, to 
keep disciplined, to keep strong, to do what makes sense. And that's 
what has gotten us here, 5 hard years of that, and we don't want to 
forget that.
    So we do have new spending in our programs, but it's new spending 
within a context of fiscal discipline. It's new discipline with the 
smallest Federal Government since Kennedy was President and the size of 
it continuing to go down.

Accused Unabomber Theodore Kaczynski

    Mr. Siegel. Federal prosecutors reportedly rejected a plea bargain 
agreement not long ago with Theodore Kaczynski, with his lawyers at 
least, that might have guaranteed his imprisonment for life. Evidently 
they want the death penalty. Is it important to you, say, if he's 
convicted, that there be an exercise of the Federal death penalty?
    The President. If he's guilty, he killed a lot of people 
deliberately, and, therefore, I think it's something that the jury 
should be able to consider. From my point of view, I approve of the laws 
that we have in America now, the sort of two-tiered trial where you 
determine guilt and then you determine penalty, and I would want to hear 
all the testimony before I decided how I'd vote in that case. But I do 
think it should be presented to the penalty phase.
    Mr. Siegel. Even if you had a guilty plea that--as there is no 
parole in the Federal system--guaranteed none and spared any possibility 
of an acquittal, you would still prefer to reject that plea, to offer 
the jury the option of the death penalty?
    The President. I think the jury should have the option. Now, also, 
as a practical matter, there aren't many inmates--perhaps he would be 
one--that actually do get life without parole. And that's probably not a 
terrible thing. That is, in a prison system, where you don't want prison 
riots, you have to reward people who do an extraordinarily good job of 
being good inmates within the prison system, perhaps the practice of 
allowing people who have life sentences to be paroled after quite a long 
period of time is a good one, or, at least, defensible. But juries know 
that, too.
    So I think the--it's hard to generalize. But this was a case where, 
based on what I know, I would consider it appropriate to present that to 
the jury.

Asian Economies

    Ms. Liasson. Mr. President, on the Asian financial crisis, a lot of 
Americans don't understand why taxpayers should help bail out banks and 
investors in the U.S. or Japan or in Europe who took a risk and made 
some mistakes. Don't they bear some responsibility? Don't they have to 
take some of the hit?
    The President. Absolutely. They do bear some of the responsibility, 
and they shouldn't all be bailed out. And that's one of the most 
frustrating things about this. On the other hand, what this is about is 
about rebuilding confidence in the investment climate of these 
countries. I don't think they ought to get one red cent unless the 
governments commit to do things for the future that will mean these 
banks will have to take a bigger risk, and get their act cleaned up, 
unless the International Monetary Fund plan is implemented, and then the 
U.S. and Japan and these other countries come in as a backup.
    But if we refuse on the front end to do anything, the problem is it 
could hurt us a lot worse than it could hurt the odd banker that doesn't 
get his money back, because if a lot of people start not getting any of 
their money back, then other people say, ``Well, I'm going to get my 
money out,'' and then others say, ``Well, I'm not going to put my money 
in''; and then all of a sudden the value of the currency goes way down. 
Then what happens? They don't have any money to buy American products 
and all their products are cheaper, competing against ours and other 
countries.
    So we have a big economic interest as well as a huge interest in a 
stable, democratic Asia. And that's why I think we're doing the

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right thing. I hope in the State of the Union I can persuade the 
American people that it's the right thing.

President's Political Philosophy

    Ms. Liasson. I want to ask you about ``Clintonism.'' We've been 
hearing a lot about ``Clintonism'' lately, a coherent political 
philosophy that may or may not be identified with you. Do you think 
there is such a thing, and what is it?
    The President. Well, I do. I think, first of all, it's a very--it's 
a future-oriented political philosophy that attempts to break the logjam 
between the 1980's and early nineties debate of the Republican position 
that Government is the enemy and the Democratic position is, sort of, 
Government is the solution if we do more of the same; we just need to do 
more.
    My position is we need a different kind of Government for a 
different kind of society and a different kind of world. And we need to 
focus more on giving people the tools they need to make the most of 
their own lives, more on being a catalyst for good ideas, more on 
empowering the disadvantaged, and creating opportunity, enforcing 
responsibility, building community. I think that's what ``Clintonism'' 
is about. And I think it will get us to the 21st century.
    Mr. Siegel. Mr. President, thank you very much for talking with us.
    The President. Thank you.
    Mr. Siegel. I'd like to tell our listeners that the entire 
transcript as well as audio of this interview will be available later 
this evening on our Web site, which is www.npr.org. And once again, 
thank you very much.
    The President. Thank you.

Note: The interview began at 5:08 p.m. in the Oval Office at the White 
House and was broadcast live on National Public Radio stations 
nationwide. During the interview, the President referred to the United 
Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM).