[Weekly Compilation of Presidential Documents Volume 32, Number 41 (Monday, October 14, 1996)]
[Pages 1975-1998]
[Online from the Government Publishing Office, www.gpo.gov]

<R04>
Presidential Debate in Hartford

October 6, 1996

    Jim Lehrer. Good evening from the Bushnell Theater in Hartford, 
Connecticut. I'm Jim Lehrer, of the ``NewsHour'' on PBS. Welcome to the 
first of the 1996 Presidential debates between President Bill Clinton, 
the Democratic nominee, and Senator Bob Dole, the Republican nominee.
    This event is sponsored by the Commission on Presidential Debates. 
It will last 90 minutes, following a format and rules worked out by the 
two campaigns. There will be 2-minute opening and closing statements; in 
between, a series of questions, each having three parts: a 90-second 
answer, a 60-second rebuttal, and a 30-second response. I will assist 
the candidates in adhering to those time limits, with the help of a 
series of lights visible to both.
    Under their rules, the candidates are not allowed to question each 
other directly. I will ask the questions. There are no limitations on 
the subjects. The order for everything tonight was determined by coin 
toss.
    Now to the opening statements and to President Clinton.
    Mr. President.

[[Page 1976]]

    The President. Thank you, Jim, and thank you to the people of 
Hartford, our hosts. I want to begin by saying again how much I respect 
Senator Dole and his record of public service, and how hard I will try 
to make this campaign and this debate one of ideas, not insults.
    Four years ago I ran for President at a time of high unemployment 
and rising frustration. I wanted to turn this country around with a 
program of opportunity for all, responsibility from all, and an American 
community where everybody has a role to play. I wanted a Government that 
was smaller and less bureaucratic to help people have the tools to make 
the most of their own lives.
    Four years ago you took me on faith. Now there's a record: 10\1/2\ 
million more jobs, rising incomes, falling crime rates and welfare 
rolls, a strong America at peace. We are better off than we were 4 years 
ago. Let's keep it going.
    We cut the deficit by 60 percent. Now let's balance the budget and 
protect Medicare, Medicaid, education, and the environment. We cut taxes 
for 15 million working Americans. Now let's pass the tax cuts for 
education and childrearing, help with medical emergencies and buying a 
home. We passed family and medical leave. Now let's expand it so more 
people can succeed as parents and in the work force. We passed the 
100,000 police, the assault weapons ban, the Brady bill. Now let's keep 
going by finishing the work of putting the police on the street and 
tackling juvenile gangs. We passed welfare reform. Now let's move a 
million people from welfare to work. And most important, let's make 
education our highest priority so that every 8-year-old will be able to 
read, every 12-year-old can log on to the Internet, every 18-year-old 
can go to college.
    We can build that bridge to the 21st century, and I look forward to 
discussing exactly how we're going to do it.
    Mr. Lehrer. Senator Dole, 2 minutes.
    Senator Bob Dole. Thank you.
    Thank you, Mr. President, for those kind words. And I thank the 
people of Hartford, the Commission, and all those out here who may be 
listening or watching. It's a great honor for me to be here, standing 
here as the Republican nominee. I'm very proud to be the Republican 
nominee, reaching out to Democrats and independents.
    I have three very special people with me: my wife, Elizabeth, my 
daughter, Robin, who have never let me down; and a fellow named Frank 
Carafa from New York, who along with Ollie Manninen helped me out in the 
mountains of Italy a few years back. I've learned from them that people 
do have tough times and sometimes you can't go it alone. And that's what 
America's all about.
    I remember getting my future back from doctors and nurses and a 
doctor in Chicago named Dr. Kelikian, and ever since that time I've 
tried to give something back to my country, to the people who are 
watching us tonight.
    America is the greatest place on the face of the Earth. And I know 
millions of you still have anxieties. You work harder and harder to make 
ends meet and put food on the table. You worry about the quality and the 
safety of your children and the quality of education. But even more 
importantly, you worry about the future and will they have the same 
opportunities that you and I have had.
    And Jack Kemp and I want to share with you some ideas tonight. Jack 
Kemp is my runningmate, doing an outstanding job. Now, I'm a plain-
speaking man, and I learned long ago that your word was your bond. And I 
promise you tonight that I'll try to address your concerns and not try 
to exploit them. It's a tall order, but I've been running against the 
odds for a long time. And again, I'm honored to be here this evening.

Federal Government's Role

    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. President, first question: There's a major 
difference in your view of the role of the Federal Government and that 
of Senator Dole. How would you define the difference?
    The President. Well, Jim, I believe that the Federal Government 
should give people the tools and try to establish the conditions in 
which they can make the most of their own lives. That, to me, is the 
key. And that leads me to some different conclusions from Senator Dole.
    For example, we have reduced the size of the Federal Government to 
its smallest size in 30 years. We've reduced more regulations,

[[Page 1977]]

eliminated more programs than my two Republican predecessors. But I have 
worked hard for things like the family and medical leave law, the Brady 
bill, the assault weapons ban, the program to put 100,000 police on the 
street. All of these are programs that Senator Dole opposed, that I 
supported because I felt they were a legitimate effort to help people 
make the most of their own lives.
    I've worked hard to help families impart values to their own 
children. I supported the V-chip so that parents would be able to 
control what their kids watch on television when they're young, along 
with the ratings system for television and educational television. I 
supported strong action against the tobacco companies to stop the 
marketing, advertising, and sale of tobacco to young people. I supported 
a big increase in the safe and drug-free schools program.
    These were areas on which Senator Dole and I differed, but I 
believed that they were the right areas for America to be acting 
together as one country to help individuals and families make the most 
of their own lives and raise their kids with good values and a good 
future.
    Mr. Lehrer. Senator Dole, one minute.
    Senator Dole. I think the basic difference is--and I have had some 
experience in this--I think the basic difference--I trust the people; 
the President trusts the Government.
    If you go back and look at the health care plan that he wanted to 
impose on the American people--one-seventh the total economy, 17 new 
taxes, price controls, 35 to 50 new bureaucracies, a cost of $1.5 
trillion. Don't forget that; that happened in 1993. A tax increase that 
taxed everybody in America, not just the rich. If you made $25,000--
that's the original proposal--you got your Social Security taxes 
increased. We had a BTU tax that turned into a $35 billion gas tax, a 
$265 billion tax increase.
    I guess I rely more on the individual. I carry a little card around 
in my pocket called the 10th amendment: Where possible, I want to give 
power back to the States and back to the people. That's my difference 
for the present, and we'll have specific differences later. He noted a 
few, but there are others.
    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. President, 30 seconds.
    The President. I trust the people. We've done a lot to give the 
people more powers to make their own decisions over their own lives. But 
I do think we are right when we try to, for example, give mothers and 
newborns 48 hours before they can be kicked out of the hospital, ending 
these drive-by deliveries. I think we were right to pass the Kassebaum-
Kennedy bill, which states you can't lose your health insurance just 
because you change jobs or because someone in your family has been sick.
    Our Government is smaller and less bureaucratic and has given more 
authority to the States than its two predecessors under Republican 
Presidents. But I do believe we have to help our people get ready to 
succeed in the 21st century.

State of the Nation

    Mr. Lehrer. Senator Dole, the President said in his opening 
statement, we are better off today than we were 4 years ago. Do you 
agree?
    Senator Dole. Well, he's better off than he was 4 years ago. 
[Laughter]
    The President. I agree with that. That's right.
    Senator Dole. And I may be better off 4 years from now. But--
[laughter]--I don't know, I look at the slowest growth in a century. He 
inherited a growth of 4.7, 4.8 percent; now it's down to about 2.4 
percent. We're going to pass a million bankruptcies this year for the 
first time in history. We've got stagnant wages; in fact, women's wages 
have dropped 2.2 percent. Men's wages haven't gone up, gone down. So we 
have stagnation.
    We have the highest foreign debt in history. And it seems to me that 
if you take a look--are you better off? Well, I guess some may be better 
off. Saddam Hussein is probably better off than he was 4 years ago. Rene 
Preval is probably better off than he was 4 years ago. But are the 
American people?
    They're working harder and harder and paying more taxes. For the 
first time in history, you pay about 40 percent of what you earn, more 
than you spend for food, clothing, and shelter combined, for taxes under 
this administration.

[[Page 1978]]

    So some may be better off. They talk about family income being up. 
That's not true in Connecticut; family income is down. And it's up in 
some cases because both parents are working; one works for the family, 
and one works to pay taxes for the Government. We're going to give them 
a tax cut so they can spend more time with their children, maybe even 
take a vacation. That's what America is all about.
    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. President, one minute.
    The President. Well, let me say, first of all, in February, Senator 
Dole acknowledged that the American economy was in the best shape it's 
been in in 30 years. We have 10\1/2\ million more jobs, a faster job 
growth rate than under any Republican administration since the 1920's. 
Wages are going up for the first time in a decade. We have record number 
of new small businesses. We had the biggest drop in the number of people 
in poverty in 27 years. All groups of people are growing--we had the 
biggest drop in income inequality in 27 years in 1995. The average 
family's income has gone up over $1,600 just since our economic plan 
passed.
    So I think it's clear that we're better off than we were 4 years 
ago. Now we need to focus on, what do we need to do to be better off 
still? How can we help people--as we are--to get their retirements when 
they work for small businesses, to be able to afford health insurance, 
to be able to educate their children? That's what I want to focus on. 
But we're clearly better off than we were 4 years ago, as Senator Dole 
acknowledged this year.
    Mr. Lehrer. Senator Dole?
    Senator Dole. I doubt that I acknowledged that this year, but in any 
event, I think we just look at the facts. We ask the people that are 
viewing tonight, ``Are you better off than you were 4 years ago?'' It's 
not whether we're better off; it's whether they're better off. Are you 
working harder to put food on the table, to feed your children? Are your 
children getting a better education? Drug use has doubled the past 44 
months all across America. Crime has gone down, but it's because of 
mayors like Rudy Giuliani, where one-third of the drop happened in one 
city, New York City.
    So, yes, some may be better off. But of the people listening 
tonight, the working families who will benefit from our economic 
package, they'll be better off when Bob Dole is President and Jack Kemp 
is Vice President.

Medicare Reform

    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. President, Senator Dole has come pretty close in the 
last few days to accusing you of lying about his position on Medicare 
reform. Have you done so?
    The President. Absolutely not. Let's look at the position. First of 
all, remember that in this campaign season, since Senator Dole has been 
a candidate, he has bragged about the fact that he voted against 
Medicare in the beginning, in 1965, one of only 12 Members. He said he 
did the right thing then; he knew it wouldn't work at the time. That's 
what he said.
    Then his budget, that he passed along with Speaker Gingrich, cut 
Medicare $270 billion, more than was necessary to repair the Medicare 
Trust Fund. It would have charged seniors more for out-of-pocket costs, 
as well as more in premiums, because doctors could have charged them 
more. The American Hospital Association, the nurses association, the 
Catholic Hospital Association all said hundreds of hospitals could close 
and people would be hurt badly under the Dole-Gingrich Medicare plan 
that I vetoed.
    And now, with this risky $550 billion tax scheme of Senator Dole's, 
even his own friends--his campaign cochair, Senator D'Amato, says that 
they can't possibly pay for it without cutting Medicare more and cutting 
Social Security as well, according to him.
    Now, my balanced budget plan adds 10 years to the life of the 
Medicare Trust Fund--10 years. And we'll have time to deal with the 
long-term problems of the baby boomers. But it was simply wrong to 
finance their last scheme to cut Medicare $270 billion, to run the risk 
of it withering on the vine. We always have to reform it over the years, 
but we need someone who believes in it to reform it.
    Mr. Lehrer. Senator Dole.
    Senator Dole. Well, I must say I looked back at the vote on Medicare 
in 1965--we had a program called Eldercare that also provided drugs and 
was means-tested so people who needed medical attention received it. I 
thought it was a good program.

[[Page 1979]]

    But I have supported Medicare ever since. In fact, I used to go home 
and my mother would tell me--said, ``Bob, all I've got is my Social 
Security and my Medicare. Don't cut it.'' I wouldn't violate anything my 
mother said. In fact, we had a conversation about our mothers one day, a 
very poignant conversation in the White House.
    I'm concerned about health care. I've had the best health care in 
Government hospitals, Army hospitals, and I know its importance. But 
we've got to fix it. It's his trustees, the President's trustees, not 
mine, who say it's going to go broke. He doesn't fix it for 10 years.
    We ought to appoint a commission, just as we did with Social 
Security in 1983 when we rescued Social Security. And I was proud to be 
on that commission, along with Claude Pepper, the champion of senior 
citizens from Florida. And we can do it again if we take politics out of 
it.
    Stop scaring the seniors, Mr. President. You've already spent $45 
million scaring seniors and tearing me apart. I think it's time to have 
a truce.
    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. President.
    The President. Well, let me say first of all, I'd be happy to have a 
commission deal with this, and I appreciate what Senator Dole did on the 
'83 Social Security commission. But it won't be possible to do if his 
tax scheme passes, because even his own campaign cochair, Senator 
D'Amato, says he'll have to cut Medicare even more than was cut in the 
bill that I vetoed. I vetoed that bill because it cut more Medicare and 
basically ran the risk of breaking up the system.
    My balanced budget plan puts 10 years onto Medicare. We ought to do 
that; then we can have a commission. But Senator Dole's plans are not 
good for the country.

Senator Dole's Tax Cut Proposal

    Mr. Lehrer. Senator Dole, speaking of your tax plan, do you still 
think that's a good idea, the 15 percent across-the-board tax cut?
    Senator Dole. Oh, yes, and you'll be eligible. [Laughter]
    The President. Me too?
    Senator Dole. And so will the former President, yes. [Laughter]
    The President. That's good. I need it.
    Senator Dole. Well, the people need it; that's the point. This is 
not a Wall Street tax cut. This is a family tax cut. This is a Main 
Street tax cut. Fifteen percent across--let's take a family making 
$30,000 a year--that's $1,261. Now, maybe to some in this Bushnell 
Memorial that's not a lot of money, but people watching tonight with a 
couple of kids, a working family--that's 4 or 5 months of day care, 
maybe a personal computer; it may be 3 or 4 months of mortgage payments. 
This economic package is about families, but it's a six-point package. 
First of all, it's a balanced budget amendment to the Constitution, 
which President Clinton defeated. He twisted arms and got six Democrats 
to vote the other way. We lost by one vote.
    It's balancing the budget by the year 2002. It's the tax cut, 
cutting capital gains 50 percent, so that you can go out and create more 
jobs and more opportunities. It's a State tax relief. It's a $500-per-
child tax credit. It's about litigation reform. Now that the President 
gets millions of dollars from the trial lawyers, he probably doesn't 
like this provision. In fact, when I fell off that podium in Chico, 
before I hit the ground I had a call on my cell phone from a trial 
lawyer saying, ``I think we've got a case here.'' [Laughter]
    And it's also regulatory reform. So it's a good package, Mr. 
President, and we'd like to have your support.
    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. President.
    The President. Well, here's the problem with it. It sounds very 
good, but there's a reason that 500 economists, including 7 Nobel Prize 
winners, and business periodicals like Business Week and even Senator 
Dole's friend Senator Warren Rudman, former Republican Senator from New 
Hampshire, says it is not a practical program. It's a $550 billion tax 
scheme that will cause a big hole in the deficit, which will raise 
interest rates and slow down the economy and cause people to pay more 
for home mortgages, car payments, credit card payments, college loans, 
and small business loans. It's not good to raise the deficit; we've 
worked too hard to lower it. It will actually raise taxes on 9 million 
people. And in addition to that, it will force bigger cuts in Medicare, 
Medicaid, education, and the environment than the

[[Page 1980]]

ones that he and Mr. Gingrich passed that I vetoed last year.
    So it sounds great. But our targeted tax cut for education, 
childrearing, health care, and homebuying, which is paid for in my 
balanced budget plan--something that he has not done--certified by the 
Congressional Budget Office, that's the right way to go.
    Mr. Lehrer. Senator Dole.
    Senator Dole. The President wants to increase spending 20 percent 
over the next 6 years. I want to increase spending 14 percent. That's 
how simple it is. I want the Government to pinch pennies for a change, 
instead of the American families. We're talking about 6 percentage 
points over 6 years. And with that money, you give it back to the 
working people. You also provide opportunity scholarships so low-income 
parents will have the same choice that others have in sending their 
children to better schools. And it will work. And when it does work, Mr. 
President, I know you will congratulate me.

Campaign Financing

    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. President, the Senator mentioned trial lawyers, and 
that means campaign financing. How do you personally avoid being unduly 
influenced by people who give you money or give you services in your 
campaigns?
    The President. Well, I try to articulate my positions as clearly as 
possible, tell people what I stand for, and let them decide whether 
they're going to support me or not. The Senator mentioned the trial 
lawyers. In the case of the product liability bill, which they passed 
and I vetoed--I think that's what he's talking about--I actually wanted 
to sign that bill, and I told the people exactly what--the Congress--
exactly what kind of bill I would sign. Now, a lot of the trial lawyers 
didn't want me to sign any bill at all, but I thought we ought to do 
what we could to cut frivolous lawsuits. But they wouldn't make some of 
the changes that I thought should be made.
    And let me just give you an example. I had a person in the Oval 
Office who lost a child in a schoolbus accident where a drunk driver 
caused the accident directly, but there were problems with the 
schoolbus. The drunk driver had no money. Under the new bill, if I had 
signed it, a person like that could never have had any recovery. I 
thought that was wrong. So I gave four or five specific examples to the 
Congress, and I said, ``Prove to me that these people could recover, but 
we're going to eliminate frivolous lawsuits; I'll sign the bill.''
    But generally, I believe that a President has to be willing to do 
what he thinks is right. I've done a lot of things that were 
controversial: my economic plan, my trade position, Bosnia, Haiti, 
taking on the NRA for the first time, taking on the tobacco companies 
for the first time. Sometimes you just have to do that because you know 
it's right for the country over the long run. That's what I've tried to 
do, and that's what I will continue to do as President.
    Mr. Lehrer. Senator Dole?
    Senator Dole. You mean, how does he avoid the conflict? Well, I 
don't know in the case of the trial lawyers. When I look at the trial 
lawyers, and when you're a few million short you run out to Hollywood 
and pick up $2 million to $4 million, and organized labor comes to 
Washington, DC, and puts $35 million into the pot--now, if these aren't 
special interests, then I've got a lot to learn. I was there for a while 
before I left on June 11th.
    The trial lawyers--I don't--my wife is a lawyer. We're the only two 
lawyers in Washington that trust each other, but we're lawyers. I like 
lawyers. I don't dislike trial lawyers. But it seems to me there has got 
to be some end to the frivolous lawsuits, and there's got to be some cap 
on punitive damage.
    You're putting a lot of business people out of business, small-
business men and small-business women who paid 70 percent of your $265 
billion tax increase, the largest tax increase in the history of 
America. I said that one day, and Pat Moynihan--and the Democrats say 
no--he said, ``in the history of the world.'' So I modified it--the 
largest tax increase in the history of the world. And it seems to me 
that there is a problem there, Mr. President.
    And I will address you as Mr. President. You didn't do that with 
President Bush in 1992.
    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. President.
    The President. Let me say, first of all, I signed a tort reform bill 
that dealt with civil- 

[[Page 1981]]

ian aviation a couple of years ago. I've proved that I will sign 
reasonable tort reform.

    Secondly, Senator Dole has had some pretty harsh comments about 
special interest money, but it wasn't me who opposed what we tried to do 
to save the lives of children who are subject to tobacco and then went 
to the tobacco growers and bragged about standing up to the Federal 
Government when we tried to stop the advertising, marketing, and sales 
of tobacco to children. And it wasn't me that let the polluters actually 
come into the Halls of Congress, into the rooms, and rewrite the 
environmental laws. That's what Speaker Gingrich and Senator Dole did, 
not me.
    Senator Dole. That's not true.
    The President. So I believe that we should take a different approach 
to this and talk about how we stand on the issues instead of trying to 
characterize each other's motivations. I think Senator Dole and I just 
honestly disagree.
    Mr. Lehrer. Well, Senator Dole, let me ask you the same question I 
asked the President: How do you avoid being influenced by people who 
contribute money and services to your campaigns?
    Senator Dole. I think it's very difficult. Let's be honest about it. 
That's why we need campaign finance reform. That's why I reach out to 
the Perot voters, and we've done about all that--we are the reform 
party, the Republican Party, and the Perot voters who are looking for a 
home ought to take a look at the Republican record. Whatever it is, 
whatever the checklist was in '92, it's all done but campaign finance 
reform.
    I worked with Senator Mitchell, who played me, I guess, in the 
debate warmup. We tried 6 or 8 years ago to--he appointed three people, 
I appointed three people--to get campaign finance reform. We couldn't 
get it done because it wasn't enforceable. You suggested a commission; 
Newt Gingrich did. I've suggested that, at least 4 or 5 years ago, we 
have a commission on campaign finance reform, they send it to Congress, 
and we have to vote it up or down. That's how it works.
    We're never going to fix it by the parties, because Democrats want a 
better advantage for themselves, we want a better advantage as 
Republicans, and that's not how it's going to work.
    But I want to touch on this tobacco thing. I know the President's 
been puffing a lot on that. But I want to go back to 1965. That was my 
first vote against tobacco companies when I said we ought to label 
cigarettes, and I've had a consistent record ever since 1965. We passed 
a bill in 1992 to encourage the States to adopt programs to stop kids 
from smoking. All 50 States did it. It took 3\1/2\ years. It wasn't 
until election year, Mr. President, that you ever thought about stopping 
smoking.
    What about drugs that have increased--doubled in the last 44 months? 
Cocaine is up 141 percent--or marijuana; cocaine up 166 percent. And it 
seems to me that you have a selective memory. Mine doesn't work that 
way, so I just want to try to correct it as we go along.
    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. President.
    The President. Mr. Lehrer, I hope we'll have a chance to discuss 
drugs later in the program, but let me respond to what you said. I agree 
that too many incumbent politicians in Washington in both parties have 
consistently opposed campaign finance reform. That was certainly the 
case from the minute I got there.
    So after Speaker Gingrich and Senator Dole took over the Congress, I 
went to New Hampshire and a man suggested--a gentleman that, 
unfortunately, just passed away a couple of days ago suggested that we 
appoint a commission. And I shook hands with him on it, and I appointed 
my members, and the commission never met.
    And then Senator Dole's ardent supporter Senator McCain, who is out 
there today, along with Senator Feingold, supported--sponsored a 
campaign finance reform proposal. I strongly supported it, and members 
of Senator Dole's own party in the Senate killed it. And he was not out 
there urging them to vote for the McCain-Feingold bill.
    So I think the American people, including the Perot supporters, know 
that I've had a consistent record in favor of campaign finance reform, 
and I will continue to have. And I hope we can finally get it in the 
next session of Congress, because we need it badly.

[[Page 1982]]

    Mr. Lehrer. Senator Dole, 30 seconds.
    Senator Dole. Well, on campaign reform itself we're going to get it 
when we have a bipartisan commission, take it out of politics get people 
who don't have any interest in politics but understand the issue, and 
let them make a recommendation to Congress.
    Now, we're not kidding anybody, Mr. President. These are 
sophisticated people watching tonight, millions and millions of 
Americans. They know the Republican Party hasn't done it. They know the 
Democratic Party won't do it. We ought to agree that somebody else 
should do it, and then we have to vote it up or down.
    The President. I agree.

Teenage Drug Use

    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. President, the Senator mentioned drugs. He's 
suggested in the past that you bear some responsibility for the rise in 
drug use of teenagers in the United States. Is he right?
    The President. Well, Jim, I think every American in any position of 
responsibility should be concerned about what's happened. I am.
    But let's look at the overall record. Overall in America, cocaine 
use has dropped 30 percent in the last 4 years, casual drug use down 13 
percent. The tragedy is that our young people are still increasing their 
use of drugs, up to about 11 percent total with marijuana. And I regret 
it. Let me tell you what I've tried to do about it.
    I appointed a four-star general who led our efforts south of the 
border to keep drugs from coming into the country as our Nation's drug 
czar, the most heavily decorated soldier in uniform when he retired. We 
submitted the biggest drug budget ever. We have dramatically increased 
control and enforcement at the border. We supported a crime bill that 
had 60 death penalties, including the death penalty for drug kingpins. 
And I supported a big expansion in the safe and drug-free schools 
program to support things like the D.A.R.E. program, because I thought 
all those things were very important.
    Do I think that I bear some responsibility for the fact that too 
many of our children still don't understand drugs are wrong, drugs can 
kill you, even though I have consistently opposed the legalization of 
drugs all my public life and worked hard against them? I think we all 
do. And I hope we can do better.
    I don't think this issue should be politicized, because my record is 
clear and I don't think Senator Dole supports using drugs. I think we 
just have to continue to work on this until those who think it isn't 
dangerous and won't kill them and won't destroy their lives get the 
message and change.
    Mr. Lehrer. Senator.
    Senator Dole. Again, you're very selective, Mr. President. You don't 
want to politicize drugs, but it's all right to politicize Medicare and 
go out and scare senior citizens and other vulnerable groups, veterans 
and people who get Pell grants and things like this. I mean, you say we 
have done all these bad things, which isn't the case.
    But it seems to me the record is clear. The record was pretty clear 
in Arkansas when you were Governor: drug use doubled. You resisted the 
appointment of a drug czar there because you thought it might interfere 
with treatment. But here you cut the drug czar's office 83 percent. You 
have cut interdiction substantially. That's what--I want to stop it from 
coming across the border. And in my administration we're going to train 
the National Guard to stop it from coming across the border.
    This is an invasion of drugs from all over the world. And we have a 
responsibility. You had a Surgeon \1\--or before General McCaffrey, you 
had a lady who said we ought to consider legalizing drugs. Is that the 
kind of leadership we need? And I won't comment on other things that 
have happened in your administration or your past about drugs. But it 
seems to me the kids ought to--if they have started they ought to stop, 
and just don't do it.
    \1\ Former Surgeon General Joycelyn Elders.
    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. President.
    The President. Let me say again, we did have a drug czar in 
Arkansas, but he answered to the Governor, just like this one answers to 
the President. That's what I thought we ought to do.
    Secondly, Senator Dole, you voted against the crime bill that had 
the death penalty for drug kingpins in it, and you voted to cut serv- 

[[Page 1983]]

ices to 23 million school children under the Safe and Drug-Free Schools 
Act. I don't think that means you're soft on drugs. We just have a 
different approach. But let me remind you that my family has suffered 
from drug abuse. I know what it's like to see somebody you love nearly 
lose their lives, and I hate drugs, Senator. We need to do this 
together, and we can.

Gun Control

    Mr. Lehrer. Senator Dole, on the Government--continuing to talk 
about the Government's role--if elected President, would you seek to 
repeal the Brady bill and the ban on assault weapons?
    Senator Dole. Not if I didn't have a better idea, but I've got a 
better idea. It's something I've worked on for 15 years. It's called the 
automated check, or the instant check. It's being used in 17 States 
right now, States like Florida, Colorado, Virginia, and other States. 
You don't buy any gun--you don't get any gun. We've got 20 million names 
on a computer in Washington, DC, of people who should not have a gun. We 
ought to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, and there are eight 
other categories that should not have guns. I've been working on this 
for a long, long time.
    You walk in, you put your little card in there. If it says ``tilt,'' 
you don't get any gun. You don't get a handgun; you don't get a rifle; 
you don't get a shotgun. You get zippo. If we're going to protect 
American children and American families and people who live as prisoners 
in their own home, we've got to stop guns from being dumped on the 
street.
    The administration says they support the instant check. They've 
appropriated about $200 million, but only spent about $3 million to get 
it underway. In our administration, in my administration, we will 
expedite this. It keeps up the technology. It keeps guns out of the 
hands of people who should not have guns. That is the bottom line. And I 
believe it's a good idea. It has strong bipartisan support, and perhaps 
that's another thing we can depoliticize.
    You talk about the Brady bill. There's only been one prosecution 
under the Brady bill--only one under the assault weapon ban, and only 
seven under the Brady bill that you talk about all the time. And on the 
assault weapons ban, out of 17 weapons that were banned, only 6 are 
banned now because 11 have been modified and they're back on the street. 
Let's get together on this instant check, because that will really make 
a difference.
    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. President.
    The President. Let me say, first of all, Senator Dole has gone back 
and forth about whether he'd be for repealing the Brady bill or 
repealing the assault weapons ban, and I think his present position is 
that he would not do so. And if that's true, I'm grateful for it. But 
let's look at the facts here.
    The Brady bill has kept at least 60,000 felons, fugitives, and 
stalkers from getting handguns. Senator Dole led the fight against the 
Brady bill. He tried to keep it from coming to my desk. He didn't 
succeed, and I signed it, and I'm glad I did.
    Then when we had the assault weapons ban in the Senate, Senator Dole 
fought it bitterly and opposed the entire crime bill and almost brought 
the entire crime bill down because the National Rifle Association didn't 
want the assault weapons ban, just like they didn't want the Brady bill. 
But 2 years later, nobody has lost their handguns--I mean, their rifles. 
We've expanded the Brady bill to cover people who beat up their spouses 
and their kids. And this is a safer country. So I'm glad I took on that 
fight. And I believe, with all respect, I was right, and he was wrong.
    Senator Dole. Well, the President doesn't have it quite right. I 
mean, it seemed to me at the time that the assault weapon ban was not 
effective. But that's history. As I told the NRA, that's history: You're 
not going to worry about it anymore; I'm not going to worry about it 
anymore. Let's do something better.
    Let's stop playing the political game, Mr. President, talking about 
this and this. You add up all the States who have used the instant check 
and how many weapons they've kept out of the hands of criminals, it 
would far surpass the number you mentioned. So in my view, if you want 
to be protected, you ought to vote for Bob Dole, and we'll get the 
instant check passed, and we'll keep guns out of the hands of criminals.

[[Page 1984]]

Foreign Policy

    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. President, Senator Dole said the other day that you 
practiced a photo-op foreign policy that has lessened the credibility of 
the United States throughout the world. Is he wrong about that?
    The President. If that's what he said, he's not right about that. 
Look at where we are today. The United States is still the indispensable 
nation in the aftermath of the cold war and on the brink of the 21st 
century. I have worked to support our country as the world's strongest 
force for peace and freedom, prosperity and security.
    We have done the following things: Number one, we've managed the 
aftermath of the cold war, supporting a big drop in nuclear weapons in 
Russia, the removal of Russian troops from the Baltics, the integration 
of Central and Eastern European democracies into a new partnership with 
NATO and, I might add, with a democratic Russia. There are no nuclear 
missiles pointed at the children of the United States tonight and have 
not been in our administration for the first time since the dawn of the 
nuclear age.
    We have worked hard for peace and freedom. When I took office, Haiti 
was governed by a dictator that had defied the United States. When I 
took office, the worst war in Europe was waging in Bosnia. Now there is 
a democratically elected President in Haiti, peace in Bosnia. We have 
just had elections there. We have made progress in Northern Ireland and 
the Middle East. We've also stood up to the new threats of terrorism, 
the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, organized crime.
    And we have worked hard to expand America's economic presence around 
the world with the biggest increase in trade, with the largest number of 
new trade agreements in history. That's one of the reasons America is 
number one in auto production again.
    Mr. Lehrer. Senator.
    Senator Dole. Well, I have a different view again. I've supported 
the President on Bosnia. And I think we were told the troops would be 
out in a year. Now I understand it's been extended til sometime next 
year.
    But let's start with Somalia, where they dragged Americans through 
the streets and where 18 Americans were killed one day because they 
didn't have--they were pinned down for 8 hours, the Rangers; they didn't 
have the weapons; they didn't have the tanks. They asked for the tanks. 
They didn't get the tanks from this administration, because we were 
nation building. It's called mission creep. We turn it over to the 
United Nations. The President didn't have much to do about it.
    Look at Haiti where we've spent about $3 billion, and we got an 
alarm call there about 2 weeks ago: ``You've got to send down some more 
people because the President has found out there are death squads on his 
own property, so we need more protection from America.''
    Bosnia, Northern Ireland--there is no cease-fire in Bosnia. I think 
there are still lots of problems in Bosnia. We agreed to train and arm 
the Muslims so they could defend themselves--the policy you had when you 
ran in 1992--we haven't done that. We're way behind, which means 
Americans can't come home. Americans shouldn't have gone there in the 
first place, had we let them defend themselves as they have a right to 
do under Article 57 of the United Nations Charter.
    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. President.
    The President. First of all, I take full responsibility for what 
happened in Somalia, but the American people must remember that those 
soldiers were under an American commander when that happened. I believe 
they did the best they could under the circumstances. And let's not 
forget that hundreds of thousands of lives were saved there.
    Secondly, in Haiti, political violence is much, much smaller than it 
was.
    Thirdly, in Bosnia it's a virtual miracle that there has been no 
return to war. And at least there has now been an election, and the 
institutions are beginning to function.
    In Northern Ireland and the Middle East we are better off than we 
were 4 years ago. There will always be problems in this old world, but 
if we're moving in the right direction and America is leading, we're 
better off.
    Mr. Lehrer. Senator Dole, if elected President, what criteria would 
you use to decide when to send U.S. troops into harm's way?

[[Page 1985]]

    Senator Dole. Well, after World War I we had a policy of 
disengagement. Then from World War I to World War II we had sort of a 
compulsory engagement policy. Now, I think we have to have a selective 
engagement policy. We have to determine when our interests are involved, 
not the United Nations' interests. And many of the things the President 
talked about he turned over to the United Nations; they decided. He's 
deployed more troops than any President in history around the world. 
It's cost us billions and billions of dollars for peacekeeping 
operations. These are facts.
    And it seems to me that when you make a decision, the decision is 
made by the President of the United States, by the Commander in Chief. 
He makes that decision when he commits young men or young women who are 
going to go around and defend our liberty and our freedom. That would be 
my position.
    Then I'm going to have a top-down review at the Pentagon, not a 
bottom-up review where you all fight over how much money is there. I 
want a top-down review to determine what our priorities are and what we 
should do in defense and then follow that policy, instead of this 
bottom-up review with all of the services fighting for the money.
    The President said he was going to cut defense $60 billion; he cut 
defense $112 billion, devastated States like California and others. And 
I think now we've got a problem. We've got to go back and look. It's 
just like you said in Texas one day, you know, you raised taxes too 
much--and you did--and you cut defense too much, Mr. President--and you 
did, and you may have said that, too.
    But the bottom line is, we are the strongest nation in the world, we 
provide the leadership, and we're going to have to continue to provide 
the leadership. But let's do it on our terms when our interests are 
involved and not when somebody blows a whistle at the United Nations.
    The President. Our military is the strongest military in the world. 
It is the strongest, best prepared, best equipped it has ever been. 
There is very little difference in the budget that I have proposed and 
the Republican budget over the next 6-year period. We are spending a lot 
of money to modernize our weapons system. I have proposed a lot of new 
investments to improve the quality of life for our soldiers, for our men 
and women in uniform, for their families, for their training. That is my 
solemn obligation.
    You asked, when do you decide to deploy them? The interests of the 
American people must be at stake; our values must be at stake; we have 
to be able to make a difference. And frankly, we have to consider what 
the risks are to our young men and women in uniform.
    But I believe the evidence is that our deployments have been 
successful, in Haiti, in Bosnia, when we moved to Kuwait to repel Saddam 
Hussein's threatened invasion of Kuwait, when I have sent the fleet into 
the Taiwan Straits, when we've worked hard to end the North Korean 
nuclear threat. I believe the United States is at peace tonight in part 
because of the disciplined, careful, effective deployment of our 
military resources.
    Mr. Lehrer. Senator Dole.
    Senator Dole. Well, I failed to mention North Korea and Cuba a while 
ago. You look at North Korea, where they have enough plutonium to build 
six nuclear bombs, where we've sort of distanced ourselves from our 
allies, South Korea. They lost about a million people in the war, the 
Korean war, the forgotten war. We lost 53,000 Americans. We shouldn't be 
doing any favors for North Korea. It's a closed society; we don't have 
any inspection; we don't know whether it's going to work or not. But we 
keep giving them these incentives--some would call them something else--
incentives. We don't know what's going to happen.
    Here we have Cuba, 90 miles from our shores. And what have we done? 
We've passed a law that gave people the right to sue, and the President 
postponed it for 6 months. And it seems to me if you want to send a 
signal you've got to send a signal, Mr. President. The sooner, the 
better off we'll be if we put tougher sanctions on Castro, not try to 
make it easier for him.

Cuba

    Mr. Lehrer. Well, Mr. President, what is your attitude toward Cuba 
and how Cuba should be treated?

[[Page 1986]]

    The President. Well, first of all, for the last 4 years we have 
worked hard to put more and more pressure on the Castro government to 
bring about more openness and a move toward democracy. In 1992, before I 
became President, Congress passed the Cuba Democracy Act, and I enforced 
it vigorously. We made the embargo tougher, but we increased contacts, 
people to people, with the Cubans, including direct telephone service, 
which was largely supported by the Cuban-American community.
    Then Cuba shot down two of our planes and murdered four people in 
international airspace. They were completely beyond the pale of the law, 
and I signed the Helms-Burton legislation.
    Senator Dole is correct. I did give about 6 months before the 
effective date of the act before lawsuits can actually be filed, even 
though they're effective now and can be legally binding, because I want 
to change Cuba. And the United States needs help from other countries. 
Nobody in the world agrees with our policy on Cuba now. But this law can 
be used as leverage to get other countries to help us to move Cuba to 
democracy.
    Every single country in Latin America, Central America, and the 
Caribbean is a democracy tonight but Cuba. And if we stay firm and 
strong, we will be able to bring Cuba around as well.
    Senator Dole. Well, that's the point I made--we have to be firm and 
strong. And I hope that will happen. It will happen starting next 
January and maybe can happen the balance of this year. We have not been 
firm and strong. If you look at the poor people who still live in Cuba, 
it's a haven for drug smugglers, and we don't have a firm policy when it 
comes to Fidel Castro. In my view, the policy has failed. So Congress 
passes a law, the President signs it like he does a lot of things, but 
he--like welfare reform, ``Well, I'm going to sign it, but I'm going to 
try to change it next year.''
    I mean, a lot of these election-year conversions the President is 
talking about--all the drug money and all the other things, all this 
antismoking campaign--all happened in 1996. And I think the people 
viewing out there ought to go back and take a look at the record. When 
he fought a balanced budget amendment, when he gave you that biggest tax 
increase in history, when he tried to take over your health care system, 
when he fought regulatory reform that costs the average family $6,000 to 
$7,000 a year--this is serious business. It's about your family. It's 
about your business. And in this case, it's about a firmer policy with 
Cuba.
    The President. There were several off-the-subject whoppers in that 
litany. Let me just mention, Senator Dole voted for $900 billion in tax 
increases. His runningmate, Jack Kemp, once said that Bob Dole never met 
a tax he didn't hike. [Laughter] And everybody knows, including the Wall 
Street Journal, hardly a friend of the Democratic Party or this 
administration, that the '82 tax increase he sponsored, in inflation-
adjusted dollars was the biggest tax increase in American history. So we 
ought to at least get the facts out here on the table so we can know 
where to go from here.

Health Care Reform

    Mr. Lehrer. Senator Dole, you mentioned health reform several times. 
What do you think should be done about the health care system?
    Senator Dole. Let me first answer that question about the 1982 tax 
cut. You know, we were closing loopholes; we were going after big 
corporations. I know you probably would oppose it, Mr. President, but I 
think we should have a fairer system and a flatter system. And we will 
have a fairer, flatter system, and we're going to make the economic 
package work.
    Health care: Well, we finally passed the Kassebaum bill. The 
President was opposed to it in 1993. He wanted to give us this big 
system that took over about one-seventh the economy, that put on price 
controls, created all these State alliances, and would cost $1.5 
trillion and force people into managed care whether they wanted it or 
not. Most people want to see their own doctor. They're going to see 
their own doctor when Bob Dole is President. We won't threaten anybody.
    So we passed the Kassebaum-Kennedy bill; that will cover about 20 to 
25 million people. We've been for that for 4, 5, or 6 years. The 
President held it up. And even

[[Page 1987]]

when it finally got near passage, Senator Kennedy held it up for 100 
days because he wasn't satisfied with one provision. But it will cover a 
pre-existing condition. If you change your job you're going to be 
covered. So, there are a lot of good things in this bill that we should 
have done, instead of trying this massive, massive takeover by the 
Federal Government.
    But then, of course, you had a Democratic Congress, and they didn't 
want to do that. Until we got a Republican Congress--we finally got 
action, and I'm very proud of my colleagues in the Republican Party for 
getting that done. It means a lot to a lot of people watching us 
tonight.
    The President. Well, that sounds very good, but it's very wrong. 
Senator Dole remembers well that we actually offered not to even put in 
a health care bill in 1994--'93--but instead to work with the Senate 
Republicans and write a joint bill. And they said no, because they got a 
memo from one of their political advisers saying that instead they 
should characterize whatever we did as big Government and make sure 
nothing was done to aid health care before the '94 elections so they 
could make that claim.
    Well, maybe we bit off more than we could chew. But we're pursuing a 
step-by-step reform now. The Kennedy-Kassebaum bill that I signed will 
make it possible for 25 million people to keep their health insurance 
when they change jobs or when somebody in their family has been sick. I 
signed a bill to stop these drive-by deliveries where insurance 
companies can force people out of the hospital after 24 hours. And I 
vetoed Senator Dole's Medicare plan that would have forced a lot of 
seniors into managed care and taken a lot more money out of their 
pockets and led to Medicare withering on the vine.
    Mr. Lehrer. Senator.
    Senator Dole. Well, many of the provisions in the Kassebaum bill 
were provisions--my provisions, like deductions for long-term care, 
making certain that self-employed people who are watching tonight can 
deduct not 30 percent but 80 percent of what you pay for premiums; you 
can also deduct long-term care now. So it's a good start.
    I think--we're even looking at our tax cut proposal, our economic 
package. There may be a way there to reach out to the uninsured, because 
there are a lot of uninsured people in this country, particularly 
children, that should be covered. Another way you can do it is to expand 
Medicaid. In America, no one will go without health care, no one will go 
without food----
    Mr. Lehrer. Senator--go ahead and finish your sentence, sorry.
    Senator Dole. Food. [Laughter]

Iraq

    Mr. Lehrer. Back to foreign affairs for a moment. Mr. President, are 
you satisfied with the way you handled this last Iraq crisis and the end 
result?
    The President. Well, I believe that we did the appropriate thing 
under the circumstances.
    Saddam Hussein is under a U.N. resolution not to threaten his 
neighbors or repress his own citizens. Unfortunately, a lot of people 
have never been as concerned about the Kurds as the United States has 
tried to be, and we've been flying an operation to protect them out of 
Turkey for many years now.
    What happened was, one of the Kurdish leaders invited him to go up 
north. But we felt, since the whole world community had told him not to 
do it, that once he did it we had to do something. We did not feel that 
I could commit--I certainly didn't feel I should commit American troops 
to throw him out of where he had gone, and that was the only way to do 
that. So the appropriate thing strategically to do was to reduce his 
ability to threaten his neighbors. We did that by expanding what's 
called the no-fly zone, by increasing our allies' control of the 
airspace, now from the Kuwait border to the suburbs of Baghdad.
    Was it the right thing to do? I believe it was. Is it fully 
effective? Did it make him withdraw from the north? Well, he has a 
little bit, and I hope he will continue. We have learned that if you 
give him an inch he'll take a mile. We had to do something. And even 
though not all of our allies supported it at first, I think most of them 
now believe that what we did was an appropriate thing to do.
    Mr. Lehrer. Senator Dole.
    Senator Dole. Well, the President's own CIA Director says that 
Saddam is stronger

[[Page 1988]]

now than he was. And I don't understand extending the no-fly zone in the 
south when the trouble was in the north. And what we've done--during the 
Bush administration the Kurds were at the State Department negotiating, 
trying to work their differences out. Now we've got all--thousands and 
thousands of refugees. We're even shipping, I guess, 3,000 Kurds to 
Guam. It involves Turkey. It's a real problem, and Saddam is probably 
stronger than he ever was.
    We shot, what, 44 cruise missiles--they're worth about $1.2 million 
apiece--and hit some radar that--repaired in a couple, 3 days. Did we 
inflict any damage? No. Did we have any of our allies helping? Well, we 
have Great Britain. They're always very loyal to us, and I appreciate 
that. And of course Kuwait, even though they had to find out they had 
5,000 troops coming. They didn't even understand that. We had to get 
their permission.
    The bottom line is, we went in there alone. We're supposed to be 
operating under a U.N. resolution. We did it without any of our allies 
that helped us in the Gulf.
    The President. Senator Dole has, two or three times before tonight, 
criticized me for working with the U.N. Now I'm being criticized for not 
working with the U.N.
    Senator Dole. That's not the U.N.
    The President. Sometimes the United States has to act alone, or at 
least has to act first. Sometimes we cannot let other countries have a 
veto on our foreign policy. I could not send soldiers into the north of 
Iraq; that would have been wrong. I could reduce Saddam Hussein's 
ability to threaten Kuwait and his other neighbors again. That's what I 
did; I still believe it was the right thing to do.

Middle East Peace Process

    Mr. Lehrer. Senator Dole, on your photo-op foreign policy charge 
against the President----
    Senator Dole. Not mine.
    Mr. Lehrer. No, no, I mean your charge against the President that he 
has a photo-op foreign policy; does the Middle East summit last week 
fall into that category?
    Senator Dole. Well, there were some good pictures, but does it fall 
into that category? I don't know. I want to be very serious. I have 
supported the President when I thought he was right on Bosnia; I 
supported him on NAFTA and GATT. So it's not that we always disagree; 
others disagreed with us. The Mideast is very difficult. But it seemed 
to me just as an observer that before you would call somebody to 
America, you would have some notion what the end result might be. Now, 
maybe it's better just to get together and sit down and talk; maybe that 
was the purpose. And I know talks have--[inaudible]--started again 
today.
    But again, it's almost like an ad hoc foreign policy. It's ad hoc. 
It's sort of, ``Well, we get up in the morning and read the papers and 
what country's in trouble, we'll have a meeting.'' To me, that's not the 
strategy that I think that people expect from America. I think we have 
lost credibility. And I say this very honestly, without any 
partisanship. We've lost credibility around the world. Our allies 
don't--they're not certain what we're going to do, what our reaction, 
what our response is going to be.
    Nobody suggested sending troops to Iraq, if that was the hint there 
from the President. But I do think that Saddam Hussein is stronger than 
he was, and I do believe that we didn't gain a great deal in the Mideast 
by bringing three of the four leaders--one refused to come--to 
Washington, DC.
    The President. We have a very consistent policy in the Middle East: 
It is to support the peace process, to support the security of Israel, 
and to support those who are prepared to take risks for peace. It is a 
very difficult environment. The feelings are very strong. There are 
extremists in all parts of the Middle East who want to kill that peace 
process. Prime Minister Rabin gave his life because someone in his own 
country literally hated him for trying to bring peace.
    I would liked to have had a big, organized summit, but those people 
were killing each other--rapidly. Innocent Arab children, innocent 
Israeli people--they were dying. So much trust has broken down in the 
aftermath of the change of government. I felt that if I could just get 
the parties together to say, let's stop the violence, start talking, 
commit to the negotiations, that would be a plus.

[[Page 1989]]

    Now, today the Secretary of State is in the Middle East, and they've 
started negotiations. And all of those leaders promised me they would 
not quit until they resolved the issues between them and got the peace 
process going forward again.
    Mr. Lehrer. Senator Dole.
    Senator Dole. Well, I was disappointed the President did not call 
for an unconditional end to the violence. I mean, it seemed to me the 
violence would stop when these leaders came to America. The killing and 
the tragedies had taken place, and it's unfortunate. And it is a 
difficult area; no doubt about it. It shouldn't be politicized in any 
way, by the President or by his opponent, and I don't intend to 
politicize it. I hope that they have talked, and I hope they've reached 
some result and that the killing will end.

Vision for the Future

    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. President, in your acceptance speech in Chicago, you 
said the real choice in this race is, quote, ``whether we build a bridge 
to the future or a bridge to the past, about whether we believe our best 
days are still out there or our best days are behind us, about whether 
we want a country of people all working together or one where you're on 
your own.'' End quote. Are you saying that you believe Senator Dole is a 
man of the past and if elected President he would lead the country 
backward?
    The President. Well, I'm saying that Senator Dole said in his fine 
speech in San Diego that he wanted to build a bridge to the past. And I 
think I know what he meant by that. He is troubled, as I am, by some of 
the things that go on today. But I believe America is the greatest 
country in human history because we have maintained freedom and 
increasing prosperity by relentlessly pushing the barriers of knowledge, 
the barriers of the present, always moving into the future.
    That's why when I became President I was determined to kind of move 
beyond this old, stale debate that had gone on in Washington for too 
long, to get this country moving again. And that's why we've got a 
country with 10\1/2\ million more jobs and record numbers of new 
businesses and rising incomes and falling crime rates and welfare roll 
rates. That's why we're moving in the right direction.
    And I'm trying to emphasize that what I want to do is to continue to 
do that. That's why my balanced budget plan will still invest and grow 
this economy. That's why I want a tax cut for education and 
childrearing, but it's got to be paid for. That's why I want to continue 
the work we have done, over partisan opposition, to work with 
communities to bring that crime rate down until our streets are all safe 
again.
    These are my commitments. I am very oriented toward the future. I 
think this election has to be geared toward the future. I think 
America's best days are still ahead. But we've got to build the right 
bridge.
    Mr. Lehrer. Senator Dole.
    Senator Dole. You know, the President reminds me sometimes of my 
brother, Kenny, who is no longer alive, but Kenny was a great talker. 
And he used to tell me things that I knew were not quite accurate, so we 
always had a rule, we divided by 6. Now, maybe in your case, maybe just 
2.
    But 11 million new jobs and everything--I mean, the President can't 
take credit for everything that Governors are doing or that's happening 
in New York City when it comes to the murder rate and then not be 
responsible for the bad things that happen, whether it's drug use or 
something else in America. And so it seems to me that we can talk 
about--well, we called Kenny the great exaggerator because he just liked 
to make it sound a little better; it made him feel better. When it comes 
to bridges, I want a bridge to the future. I also want a bridge to the 
truth. We have to tell the truth. We've got people watching tonight and 
listening tonight trying to find the truth.
    And the truth is, there's a lot wrong with America. We need a strong 
economic package. We need a tax cut. We need the $500 child credit. And 
we'll have that soon.
    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. President.
    The President. I do not for a moment think I'm entitled to all the 
credit for the good things that have happened in America. But where I 
have moved to work with the American people to help them have the tools 
to make the most of their own lives, I think I should get some credit 
for that. I also personally took responsibility tonight when Senator 
Dole asked me about the drug problem.

[[Page 1990]]

    But you know, I think my ideas are better for the future. Senator 
Dole voted against student loans, against Head Start, against creating 
the Department of Education. If he gets elected President, we'll start 
the new century without anyone in the Cabinet of the President 
representing education and our children. I personally don't think that's 
the right kind of future for America, and I think we ought to take a 
different tack.

Education

    Mr. Lehrer. Senator Dole, do you still favor eliminating the 
Department of Education?
    Senator Dole. Yes. I didn't favor it when it was started. I voted 
against it. It was a tribute after President Carter's election to the 
National Education Association, who sent a lot of delegates to the 
Democratic Convention, who give 99.5 percent of their money to Democrats 
and the President. And a lot of the teachers send their kids to private 
schools or better public schools.
    So what we want to do is called opportunity scholarships. Now, some 
say, ``Oh, you're Republican; you can't be reaching out to these 
people.'' I've reached out to people all my life. I've worked on the 
food stamp program proudly and the WIC program and the school lunch 
program with Senators like George McGovern, Hubert Humphrey, and others, 
to name a few of my Democratic friends. I'm not some extremist out here. 
I care about people. I have my own little foundation that's raised about 
$10 million for the disabled. I don't advertise it--just did, haven't 
before. I try to do a lot of things that I think might be helpful to 
people.
    So it seems to me that we ought to take that money we can save from 
the Department of Education, put it into opportunity scholarships, and 
tell little Landel Shakespeare out in Cleveland, Ohio, and tell your 
mother and father you're going to get to go to school because we're 
going to match what the State puts up, and you're going to get to go to 
the school of your choice.
    I don't fault the President or the Vice President for sending their 
children to private schools or better schools; I applaud them for it. I 
don't criticize them. But why shouldn't everybody have that choice? Why 
shouldn't low-income Americans and low-middle-income Americans? I'm 
excited about it. It's going to be a big, big opportunity for a lot of 
people.
    The President. Let me say, first of all, I'm all for students having 
more choices. We've worked hard to expand public school choice. In my 
balanced budget bill there are funds for 3,000 new schools, created by 
teachers and parents, sometimes by business people, called charter 
schools that have no rules. They're free of bureaucracy and can only 
stay in existence if they perform and teach children. The ones that are 
out there are doing well.
    What I'm against is Senator Dole's plan to take money away from all 
of the children we now help with limited Federal funds and help far 
fewer. If we're going to have a private voucher plan, that ought to be 
done at the local level or the State level. But Senator Dole has 
consistently opposed Federal help to education. He voted against student 
loans, he voted against my improved student loan plan, he voted against 
the national service bill, against the Head Start bill. He voted against 
our efforts in safe and drug-free schools. He has voted against these 
programs. He does not believe it. That's the issue.
    Ninety percent of our kids are out there in those public schools, 
and we need to lift their standards and move them forward with the 
programs like those I've outlined in this campaign.
    Senator Dole. I had better correct the President. I don't know what 
time it is, but it's probably getting late. But I want to correct--all 
of these things I voted against, they were probably part of some big 
package that had a lot of pork in it, or a lot of things that we 
shouldn't have had, and we probably voted no. I've supported all of the 
education programs; I've supported Head Start. I think we ought to look 
at it.
    So I don't want anybody out there to think that we've just been 
voting no, no, no. Let's give low-income parents the same right that 
people of power and prestige have in America and let them go to better 
schools. Let's turn the schools back to the teachers and back to the 
parents and take it away from the National Education Association.

[[Page 1991]]

    Mr. Lehrer.  Mr. President, what's wrong with the school choice 
proposal?
    The President. I support school choice. I support school choice. I 
have advocated expansions of public school choice alternatives and, I 
said, the creation of 3,000 new schools that we are going to help the 
States to finance.
    But if you're going to have a private voucher plan, that ought to be 
determined by States and localities where they're raising and spending 
most of the money. I simply think it's wrong to take money away from 
programs that are helping build basic skills for kids--90 percent of 
them are in the public schools--to take money away from programs that 
are helping fund the school lunch program, that are helping to fund the 
other programs that are helping our schools to improve their standards.
    Our schools are getting better. And our schools can be made to be 
even better still with the right kind of community leadership and 
partnership at the school level. I have been a strong force for reform. 
And Senator, I remind you that a few years ago, when I supported a 
teacher testing law in my home State, I was pretty well lambasted by the 
teachers association. I just don't believe we ought to be out there 
running down teachers and attacking them the way you did at the 
Republican Convention. I think we ought to be lifting them up and moving 
our children forward.
    And let me just say, that budget you passed that I vetoed would have 
cut 50,000 kids out of Head Start. It would have eliminated the 
AmeriCorps plan. And it would have cut back on student loans and 
scholarships. Now, it would have; that's a fact. That's one of the big 
reasons I vetoed it. We need to be doing more in education, not less.
    Senator Dole. Well, the AmeriCorps program, I must say, if that's 
one of your successes I wouldn't speak about it too loudly. It's cost 
about $27,000 to pay people to volunteer. We've got 4 million young 
people volunteering every year. The number hasn't gone down. And you 
pick out 20,000, whether they need the money or not, and they get paid 
for volunteering.
    I like young people. I like teachers. I'm a product of public 
schools. You attended a private school for some time in your life. I 
like teachers. You're not for school choice. You can't be for school 
choice, because it's that special interest money again. When you're 
getting 99.5 percent of the money--we don't know what happened to the 
other .5 percent; we're looking for it. Somebody got it. But it all went 
to Democrats, and this is part of that liberal establishment, one of 
those liberal things that you just can't do. You're for school uniforms 
and curfews, and you're opposed to truancy. Now, that's not reform, Mr. 
President.
    Why can't Landel Shakespeare in Cleveland or Pilar Gonzalez in 
Milwaukee give their children an opportunity to go to a better school? 
Some schools aren't safe; some schools aren't even safe. Your choice is 
nothing. Let's give them a real choice, the kind of choice you have and 
the kind of choice a lot of people have in America. If we want to stop 
crime and teenage pregnancy, let's start with education.
    The President. First of all, Senator Dole, let's set the record 
straight. I was able, for 2 years when I was a very young boy, to go to 
a Catholic school, but I basically went to public schools all my life. 
And I've worked hard for a long time to make them better. Ninety percent 
of our kids are there.
    It's amazing to me--you are all for having more responsibility at 
the local level for everything except schools, where we don't have very 
much money at the Federal level to spend on education. We ought to spend 
it helping the 90 percent of the kids that we can help. If a local 
school district in Cleveland or anyplace else wants to have a private 
school choice plan like Milwaukee did, let them have at it. I might say, 
the results are highly ambiguous. But I want to get out there and give a 
better education opportunity to all of our children. And that's why I 
vetoed the budget that you passed with $30 billion in education cuts. It 
was wrong, and my plan for the future is better.

Political Philosophy

    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. President.
    Senator Dole, at the Republican Convention you said the following, 
and I quote: ``It is demeaning to the Nation that within the Clinton 
administration, a corps of the elite

[[Page 1992]]

who never grew up, never did anything real, never sacrificed, never 
suffered, and never learned should have the power to fund with your 
earnings their dubious and self-serving schemes.'' End quote. Whom, 
precisely, and what, precisely, did you have in mind?
    Senator Dole. I had precisely in mind a lot of the people that were 
in the White House and other agencies who have never been--had any 
experience, who came to Washington without any experience. They're all 
very liberal, of course, or they wouldn't be in the administration. And 
their idea was that they knew what was best for the American people.
    Now, I feel very strongly about a lot of things. I feel strongly 
about education. I want to help young people have an education, just as 
I had an education after World War II with the GI bill of rights. And 
we've had millions of young men and women in subsequent wars change the 
face of the Nation because the Government helped with their education.
    Now, the reason they don't want to have--you know, the reason the 
President can't support this is pretty obvious. It's not taking anything 
away from schools. It's new money. It's not going to be taken away from 
anybody else except it will downsize the Department of Education.
    But this is a very liberal administration. This is the 
administration that gave you the big tax cut. This is the administration 
that tried to take over health care and impose a governmental system. 
This is the administration that fought regulatory reform and that's 
putting a lot of small-business men and small-business women out of 
business. This is the administration that fought the balanced budget 
amendment and vetoed a balanced budget and vetoed welfare reform twice. 
And the list goes on and on and on.
    That's what I had in mind. I want people in my administration and 
will have people in my administration who understand America. There 
won't be 10 millionaires and 14 lawyers in the Cabinet. They'll be 
people with experience and people who understand America and people who 
know the hard knocks in life.
    The President. When Senator Dole made that remark about all the 
elitists, young elitists in the administration, one of the young men who 
works for me who grew up in a house trailer looked at me and said, ``Mr. 
President, I know how you grew up. Who is he talking about?'' And you 
know, this liberal charge, that's what their party always drags out when 
they get in a tight race. It's sort of their golden oldie, you know, 
it's a record they think they can play that everybody loves to hear. 
[Laughter] And I just don't think that dog will hunt this time.
    The American people should make up their own mind. Here's the 
record: We cut the deficit 4 years in a row for the first time since 
before the Civil War--I mean, before World War II--and maybe before the 
Civil War, too. [Laughter] We've got 10\1/2\ million new jobs. We've got 
record numbers of new small businesses. We made every one of them 
eligible for a tax cut. We've got declining crime rates, 2 million fewer 
people on welfare rolls before welfare reform passed, and a 50 percent 
increase in child support, and a crime bill with 60 death penalties, 
100,000 police, and the assault weapons ban.
    The American people can make up their mind about whether that's a 
liberal record or a record that's good for America. Liberal, 
conservative, you put whatever label you want on it.
    Senator Dole. Well, I think it's pretty liberal; I'll put that label 
on it. When you take a look at all the programs you've advocated, Mr. 
President, thank goodness we had a Republican Congress there. The first 
thing you did when you came into office was send up a stimulus package 
that said, we've got a little pork we want to scatter around America, 
$16 billion. And even some in your own party couldn't buy that.
    I remember talking by the telephone--I'm not even certain you were 
too excited about it--I'll never repeat what I talk with the President 
about, but in any event, we saved the taxpayers $16 billion. And then 
came some other programs and then came health care and then came the tax 
increase. And a lot of these things just stopped in 1994 because then 
the Congress changed, and I think we've done a good job.
    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. President, if you're not a liberal, describe your 
political philosophy.

[[Page 1993]]

    The President. I believe that the purpose of politics is to give 
people the tools to make the most of their own lives, to reinforce the 
values of opportunity and responsibility, and to build a sense of 
community so we're all working together. I don't believe in 
discrimination. I believe you can protect the environment and grow the 
economy. I believe that we have to do these things with a Government 
that's smaller and less bureaucratic but that we have to do them 
nonetheless.
    It's inconvenient for Senator Dole, but the truth is I've reduced 
the size of Government more than my Republican predecessors. And I did 
stop them, I admit that; I sure stopped their budget. Their budget cut 
enforcement for the Environmental Protection Agency by a third. It cut 
funds to clean up toxic waste dumps--with 10 million of our kids still 
living within 4 miles of a toxic waste dump--by a third. It ended the 
principle of the polluters should pay for those toxic waste dumps unless 
it was very recent. Their budget weakened our support for education $30 
billion, even cut funds for scholarships and college loans. Their budget 
cut $270 billion in Medicare. And finally, their budget withdrew the 
national guarantee of health care to poor children, families with 
children with handicaps, the elderly in nursing homes, poor pregnant 
women. It was wrong for the country, and calling it conservative won't 
make it right. It was a bad decision for America and would have been bad 
for our future if I hadn't stopped it.
    Senator Dole. Well, the President can define himself in any way he 
wants, but I think we have to look at the record. Go back to the time he 
was, what, Texas director for George McGovern. George McGovern is a 
friend of mine, so I don't mean--but he was a liberal, proud liberal.
    I've just finished reading a book. I think it's called, what is it, 
``The Demise of the Democratic Party'' by Ronald Radosh or something, 
talking about all the liberal influences in the administration, whether 
it's organized labor or whether it's the Hollywood elite or whether it's 
some of the media elite or whether it's the labor unions or whatever.
    And so I think--you take a look at it, but the bottom line is this: 
I think the American people probably lose sight of all of these bills 
and all these things. They want to know what's going to happen to them. 
They've all got a lot of anxieties out there.
    Did anybody complain when you raised taxes? Did anybody go out and 
ask the people, ``How are you going to pay the extra money?'' That's why 
we want an economic package. We want the Government to pinch their 
pennies for a change instead of the people pinching their pennies. 
That's what our message is to people watching, not all this back and 
forth--you voted this way, you voted that way. We want a better America 
as we go into the next century.
    The President. The way to get a better America is to balance the 
budget and protect Medicare, Medicaid, education, and the environment; 
to give a targeted tax cut--and let me talk about the education tax 
cut--to let people have a $10,000 deduction for the cost of college 
tuition in any year, any kind of college tuition; to give families a tax 
credit, a dollar-for-dollar reduction in their taxes for the cost of a 
typical community college so we can open that to everybody, and then to 
let people save in an IRA and withdraw from it without a tax penalty for 
education, homebuying, or medical expenses. That's the right way to go 
into the 21st century, balance the budget and cut taxes, not balloon 
with this $550 billion tax scheme.

Personal Differences

    Mr. Lehrer. Senator Dole, we've talked mostly now about differences 
between the two of you that relate to policy issues and that sort of 
thing. Are there also significant differences in the more personal area 
that are relevant to this election?
    Senator Dole. Let me say first on the President's promise for 
another tax cut--I mean, I've told people as I travel around, ``All of 
you who got the tax cut he promised last time, vote for him in '96,'' 
and not many hands go up. So the question is, would you buy a used 
election promise from my opponent?
    The people want economic reform. They're having a hard time making 
ends meet. You got one parent working for the Government, the other 
parent working for the family. And this is important business. This is 
about getting the economy moving

[[Page 1994]]

again. This is about American jobs and opportunities. It's about the 
Government, as I said before, pinching its pennies for a change instead 
of the poor taxpayer. When they raise your taxes, nobody runs around 
asking people, ``Where are you going to get the extra money?'' I think 
the Government can do better.
    Are there personal differences?
    Mr. Lehrer. That are relevant to this.
    Senator Dole. Well, my blood pressure is lower and my weight, my 
cholesterol. But I will not make health an issue in this campaign. 
[Laughter] I think he's a bit taller than I am. But I think there are 
personal differences. I mean, I don't like to get into personal matters.
    As far as I'm concerned, this is a campaign about issues. It's about 
my vision for America and about his liberal vision for America, and not 
about personal things. And I think his liberal vision is a thing of the 
past. I know he wants to disown it. I wouldn't want to be a liberal 
either, Mr. President, but you're stuck with it because that's your 
record. It's your record in Arkansas, the biggest tax increase in 
history, the biggest crime increase in history, biggest drug increase in 
history in Arkansas.
    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. President.
    The President. Well, just for the record, when I was a Governor, we 
had the lowest--second lowest tax burden of any State in the country, 
the highest job growth rate of any State when I ran for President, and 
were widely recognized for a lot of other advances.
    But the important thing is, what are we going to do now? I think a 
targeted tax cut is better for our future, targeted to education and 
childrearing, with the rest of the education plan--hooking up all of our 
classrooms to the Internet by the year 2000, making sure we've got an 
army of reading volunteers, trained people to teach with parents and 
teachers so that our 8-year-olds can learn to read; investing in our 
environment, cleaning up two-thirds of the worst toxic waste dumps. 
Those plans are better than this $550 billion tax scheme.
    Now, remember, folks, even Senator Dole's campaign cochair, Senator 
D'Amato, says he's got to cut Medicare to pay for this. Everybody who 
has looked at it, 500 economists, 7 Nobel Prize winners, say it's bad 
for the economy. It's going to blow a hole in the deficit, raise taxes 
on 9 million people, and require bigger cuts than the one I vetoed.
    Our plan is better. It will take us into the future with a growing 
economy and healthier families.
    Senator Dole. Well, I'm really encouraged to know of your renewed 
friendship with Al D'Amato, and I know he appreciates it. [Laughter] You 
didn't even have tax cuts in your budget, Mr. President, the first 2 
years you were President. It wasn't until we had a Republican Congress 
that you even thought about--you talked about tax cuts.
    And getting back to personal differences, I think, Jim, if you're a 
little more specific, but I think the President could clarify one thing 
tonight, and that's the question of pardons. I know you talked about it 
with Jim Lehrer on the PBS show. And I've never discussed Whitewater, as 
I've told you personally; I'm not discussing Whitewater now. But I am 
discussing a power the President has to grant pardons, and hopefully in 
the next segment you could lay that to rest.
    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. President.
    The President. Well, first of all, he made that remark about Senator 
D'Amato. He's arranged for me to spend a lot more time with Senator 
D'Amato in the last couple of years, and so I'm more familiar with his 
comments than I used to be. [Laughter]
    Let me say what I've said already about this pardon issue. This is 
an issue they brought up. There has been no consideration of it, no 
discussion of it. I'll tell you this: I will not give anyone special 
treatment, and I will strictly adhere to the law. And that is what every 
President has done, as far as I know in the past. But whatever other 
Presidents have done, this is something I take seriously, and that's my 
position.
    Senator Dole. But it seems to me the President shouldn't have any 
comment at all, particularly where it's someone where you've had 
business dealings. I mean, you may be sending a signal; I don't know. 
I'm not questioning anybody. But as the President of the United States, 
when somebody asks you about pardons, you say ``no comment,'' period. 
And I think he made a mistake, and

[[Page 1995]]

I think when you make a mistake, you say, ``I made a mistake.'' But 
apparently his position hasn't changed.
    If there are other specific areas--but beyond that, I haven't gotten 
into any of these things, as the President knows. We've had that 
discussion. And again, I know Senator D'Amato I think may have had a 
hearing or two on Whitewater; I can't remember. [Laughter] But he's not 
my general chairman, he's a friend of mine. And so is Senator Kennedy a 
friend of yours----
    The President. You bet.
    Senator Dole. I remember one day on the floor, I said, ``Now, 
gentlemen, let me tax your memories,'' and Kennedy jumped up and said, 
``Why haven't we thought of that before?'' [Laughter] One of your 
liberal friends.
    The President. That's right. Thank you.
    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. President, 30 seconds.
    The President. No comment. [Laughter]
    Senator Dole. What's the subject matter? [Laughter]
    Mr. Lehrer. Senator Dole, if you could single out one thing that you 
would like for the voters to have in their mind about President Clinton 
on a policy matter or a personal matter, what would it be? Something to 
know about him, understand it, and appreciate it.
    Senator Dole. See, if I say anything, it's going to be misconstrued. 
I don't think this is even a race between the two--it's about our vision 
for America. I happen to like President Clinton personally. I'm 
addressing him all evening as Mr. President. I said in 1992 he didn't 
extend that courtesy to President Bush. But I respect the Presidency.
    I've served under a number of Presidents; they all have their 
strengths, and they all have their weaknesses. So I'd rather talk about 
my strengths. I think I have my strengths. I think the best thing going 
for Bob Dole is that Bob Dole keeps his word. It's a question between 
trust and fear. And I would say I think, Mr. President, about all you've 
got going in this campaign is fear. You're spending millions and 
millions of dollars in negative ads, frightening senior citizens. I know 
this to be a fact, because I had one tell me last week, ``Senator, don't 
cut my Medicare.''
    I'm trying to save your Medicare, just as I rescued Social Security 
with a bipartisan commission. I have relatives on Medicare. I used to 
sign welfare checks for my grandparents. I know all about poverty and 
all about need and all about taking care of people, and that's been my 
career in the United States Senate.
    And I'll keep my word on the economic package. If I couldn't cut 
taxes and balance the budget at the same time, I wouldn't look you in 
the eye tonight in your living room, or wherever you may be, and say 
that this is good for America. People will tell you who have served with 
Bob Dole, agree or disagree, he kept his word. That's what this race is 
all about.
    The President. I'd like the American people to know that I have 
worked very hard to be on their side and to move this country forward, 
and we're better off than we were 4 years ago.
    But the most important thing is my plan for the 21st century is a 
better plan: a targeted tax cut; a real commitment to educational 
reform; a deep commitment to making welfare reform work, with incentives 
to the private sector to move people from welfare to work--now we have 
to create those jobs, now that we're requiring people to go to work; a 
commitment to step-by-step health care reform, with the next step 
helping people who are between jobs to access health care and not lose 
it just because they're out of work for a while; a commitment to grow 
the economy while protecting the environment.
    That's what I'd like them to know about me, that I've gotten up 
every day and worked for the American people and worked so that their 
children could have their dreams come true. And I believe we've got the 
results to show we're on the right track. The most important thing is I 
believe we've got the right ideas for the future.
    And like Senator Dole--I like Senator Dole. You can probably tell we 
like each other. We just see the world in different ways, and you folks 
out there are going to have to choose who you think is right.
    Senator Dole. Well, I'd say, you know, the first homeless bill in 
the Senate was the Dole-Byrd bill, part of the Byrd-Dole bill--I can't 
remember who was in control then. I remember working with Senator 
Ribicoff

[[Page 1996]]

from Connecticut on the hospice program; we now have 2,500 hospices.
    As I said, I remember, I've worked all my life while I was in the 
Congress--I left on June 11th because I wanted the American people to 
know that I was willing to give up something. President Clinton ran for 
Governor in 1990 and said he was going to fill out his term, but he 
didn't. He's President, so I guess it's a little better deal.
    But I wanted the American people to know that I was willing to give 
up something; it wasn't just getting more power and more power. So I 
rolled the dice. I put my career on the line because I really believe 
the future of America is on the line. We can give you all these numbers. 
They don't mean a thing if you're out of work, you have nothing to eat, 
or you can't have medical care, or you're holding a crack baby in your 
arms right now, and what do you do next?
    You know, America's best days are ahead of us. I've seen the tough 
times. I know they can be better. And I'll lead America to a brighter 
future.
    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. President, what do you say to Senator Dole's point 
that this election is about keeping one's word?
    The President. Let's look at that. When I ran for President, I said 
we'd cut the deficit in half in 4 years; we've cut it by 60 percent. I 
said that our economic plan would produce 8 million jobs; we have 10\1/
2\ million new jobs. We're number one in autos again, record numbers of 
new small businesses. I said we'd pass a crime bill that would put 
100,000 police on the street, ban assault weapons, and deal with the 
problems that ought to be dealt with with capital punishment, including 
capital punishment for drug kingpins. And we did that.
    I said we would change the way welfare works. And even before the 
bill passed, we had moved nearly 2 million people from welfare to work, 
working with States and communities. I said we'd get tougher on child 
support, and child support enforcement is up 50 percent.
    I said that I would work for tax relief for middle-class Americans. 
The deficit was bigger than I thought it was going to be, and I think 
they're better off, all of us are, that we got those interest rates down 
and the deficit down. The Republicans talk about it, but we're the first 
administration in anybody's lifetime looking at this program to bring 
that deficit down 4 years in a row. We still gave tax cuts to 15 million 
working Americans. And now I've got a plan that has been out there for 2 
years--it could have been passed already, but instead the Republicans 
shut the Government down to try to force their budget and their plan on 
me, and I couldn't take that. But we'll get the rest of that tax relief.
    And so I think when you can look at those results, you know that the 
plan I have laid out for the future has a very good chance of being 
enacted if you'll give me a chance to build that bridge to the 21st 
century.
    Mr. Lehrer. Senator.
    Senator Dole. Well, there he goes again--I mean, it's a line that 
has been used before--but exaggerating all of the things he did. He 
didn't do all these things. Let's take all of these 4, you know, years 
in a row. He came in with a high growth rate. The 1990 budget agreement, 
which some didn't like, had some very tough cost controls. It put a lot 
of pressure on Congress. The S&L crisis was over. They were starting to 
sell assets; all of that money was coming in. And he cut defense an 
extra $60 billion, threw a lot of people out of work.
    He talks about a smaller Government. There are actually more people 
in Government, except for the people in defense-related jobs. They're 
gone. The Government is bigger than it was when President Kennedy was 
around, even though he says it's not. In addition, the Republican 
Congress cut $53 billion. So let's give credit where credit is due.
    Governor Engler in Michigan cut taxes 21 times, created a lot of new 
jobs. So did Governor Thompson. So did Governor Rowland. And a lot of 
people out there deserve credit, Mr. President. When I'm President of 
the United States, we're going to have a Governors council, and we're 
going to work directly with the Governors, Republicans and Democrats, to 
the get power back to people and back to the States.
    The President. I think a lot of people deserve credit, and I've 
tried to give it to them. But I believe that my plan is better than 
Senator Dole's ill-advised, $550 billion scheme,

[[Page 1997]]

which I will say again will blow a hole in the deficit.
    Our plan will balance the budget and grow the economy, preserve the 
environment, and invest in education. We have the right approach for the 
future. And look at the results: It is not midnight in America, Senator. 
We are better off than we were 4 years ago.
    Mr. Lehrer. All right, that's the last question, the last answer. 
Let's go now to the closing statements.
    Senator Dole. Are we done?
    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. President, you're first. Two minutes.
    The President. Well, first, Jim, let me thank you, and thank you, 
Senator Dole, and thank you, ladies and gentlemen, all of you listening 
tonight, for the chance you've given us to appear. I want to say in the 
beginning that I am profoundly grateful for the chance that you have 
given me to serve as President for the last 4 years. I never could have 
dreamed anything like this would come my way in life, and I've done my 
best to be faithful to the charge you've given me.
    I'm proud of the fact that America is stronger and more prosperous 
and more secure than we were 4 years ago. I'm glad we're going in the 
right direction. And I've done my best tonight to lay out my plans for 
going forward to an even better future in the next century.
    I'd like to leave you with the thought that the things I do as 
President are basically driven by the people whose lives I have seen 
affected by what does or doesn't happen in this country: the autoworker 
in Toledo who was unemployed when I was elected and now has a great job, 
because we're number one in auto production again; all the people I've 
met who used to be on welfare who are now working and raising their 
children--and I think what others could do for our country and for 
themselves if we did the welfare reform thing in the proper way.
    I think of the man who grabbed me by the shoulder once with tears in 
his eyes and said his daughter was dying of cancer, and he thanked me 
for giving him a chance to spend some time with her without losing his 
job, because of the Family and Medical Leave Act.
    I think of all the people that I grew up with and went to school 
with whom I stay in touch with and who never let me forget how what we 
do in Washington affects all of you out there in America.
    Folks, we can build that bridge to the 21st century, big enough and 
strong enough for all of us to walk across. And I hope that you will 
help me build it.
    Mr. Lehrer. Senator Dole, your closing statement, sir.
    Senator Dole. Thank you, Jim. Thank you, Mr. President. Thank 
everyone for watching and listening.
    I want to address my remarks to the young people of America, because 
they're the ones that are going to spend most of their life in the 21st 
century. They're the ones who have the challenges. And there are people 
out there making predictions that it's not going to be the same; you're 
not going to have the opportunity; there is going to be more deficits, 
more drugs, more crime, and less confidence in the American people. And 
that's what you're faced with, what the parents are faced with and the 
grandparents are faced with. It's important. It's their future.
    And I would say to those--I know there are more young people 
experimenting with drugs today than ever before. Drug use has gone up. 
And if you care about the future of America, if you care about your 
future, just don't do it.
    And I know that I am someone older than you, but I've had my anxious 
moments in my life. I've learned to feed myself and to walk and to 
dress. I'm standing here as proof that in America, the possibilities are 
unlimited. I know who I am, and I know where I'm from, and I know where 
I want to take America. We are the greatest country on the face of the 
Earth. We do more good things for more people in our communities, our 
neighborhoods than anywhere that I know of.
    This is important business. This election is important. I ask for 
your support. I ask for your help. If you really want to get involved, 
just tap into my home page, www.dolekemp96.org.
    Thank you. God bless America.

Note: The debate began at 9 p.m. at Horace Bushnell Memorial Hall. In 
their remarks, the candidates referred to President Saddam Hussein

[[Page 1998]]

of Iraq; President Rene Preval of Haiti; and Governors John Engler of 
Michigan, Tommy G. Thompson of Wisconsin, and John G. Rowland of 
Connecticut.