    [Weekly Compilation of Presidential Documents Volume 30, Number 16 (Monday, April 25, 1994)]
    [Pages 836-849]
    [Online from the Government Publishing Office, www.gpo.gov]

    <R04>
    Interview on MTV's ``Enough is Enough'' Forum

    April 19, 1994

        Tabitha Soren. Welcome to MTV's ``Enough is Enough'' Forum with the
    President of the United States, Bill Clinton. Joining the President is
    an audience of 200, 16- to 20-year-olds from here in DC and all over the
    country. Obviously, there are a lot of issues on the President's mind
    today, including some hard decisions on the U.S. role in Bosnia. But
    we've invited him here to talk about violence in America.
        Alison Steward. ``Enough is Enough'' is a comprehensive campaign put
    forth by MTV to explore the subject of violence, giving young people an
    outlet for their concerns and bringing them closer to the people who can
    bring about a change.
        ``Enough is Enough'' is also the cry of a generation of young people
    who, according to an MTV poll, specify violence as their number one
    concern, surpassing the economy and job opportunity.
        Ms. Soren. Despite the fact that violence is young people's number
    one anxiety, the country's crime rate has actually gone down in recent
    years. However, violent crime committed by young people has exploded. We
    are losing a whole generation to crime, to drugs, to lost hopes.
        Mr. President.
        The President. Thank you, Tabitha and Alison. Thank all of you for
    joining me, and I want to thank MTV for giving me a chance to keep my
    commitment to come back on the show, to talk about something I care a
    lot about: the rising tide of violence in America, especially among
    young people.
        As you heard, the crime rate overall in our country has pretty well
    leveled off, but it's still going up among young people. Young people
    are the principal perpetrators of violent crime; young people are also
    the principal victims of violent crime.
        You may have seen the public service announcement I did with a young
    teenager from here in Washington, Alicia Brown. And on the day we taped
    this announcement and then the day we announced it, she was on her way
    to the funeral of her sixth friend who had been felled by gun violence.
    It's a terrible problem.
        I want to talk today about what we can do about it together. In
    Washington, we're debating a crime bill that I care a lot about, which
    will put more police officers on the street, working with young people
    in their community; which will give a whole range of prevention programs
    that work a chance to work in every community, everything from after-
    school programs to midnight basketball to jobs for young people. We are
    seeing that work in places, so that I know it will work if we can put it
    everywhere.
        But I have to tell you, no matter what we do with the laws, we have
    to have a change in behavior and attitude and feeling among young people
    all across this country, in every

    [[Page 837]]

    community in the country. And maybe we can talk a little about that
    today, too.
        I met a young man about a week ago, named Eddie Cutanda, from
    Boston, who was working with the Boston police in their community
    policing program. And he said, before he met these two men, he hated
    police officers. But he wanted me to know and he wanted the country to
    know that he did not represent a lost generation. He said of all of you,
    he said, ``We're not a lost generation, but sometimes I think there are
    a lot of adults who'd like to lose us, and we can't let that happen.''
        So, today, maybe together we can figure out what we can do about
    this awful problem and give you and your generation your future back.
        Ms. Soren. Okay, Mr. President, let's get down to it. We've got our
    first question over here. Tell us who you are and what your question for
    the President is.

    Teen Suicide

    [A 17-year-old participant discussed the feelings of hopelessness and
    despair many people in her generation experience and asked what can be
    done to help young people understand how important their lives are.]

        The President. Well, first of all, you asked a good question. Maybe
    the question you asked is the most important question. Suicide among
    young people, as you probably know, has doubled in the last 10 or 15
    years. And it reflects a larger problem of millions of young people who
    don't commit suicide.
        I think it is rooted in part in the fact that there are a lot of
    young folks who grow up never feeling that they're the most important
    person in the world to somebody. I know--there were times in my
    childhood when I had a difficult childhood, but I always knew I was the
    most important person in the world to my mother and that somehow
    together we would get through whatever we were going through.
        With so many kids growing up in difficult family circumstances, in
    violent neighborhoods where there's so much destructive things around,
    including drugs, my own opinion is that we have to really make an effort
    to reach children when they're very young but not to give up on them
    when they're adolescents and they're going through the toughest times of
    life, so that they always know that they matter.
        The other thing we've got to do is to somehow get out of this sort
    of instant emergency way we tend to look at life. I mean, we all have
    more information today, more access to information than any generation
    before us. You can turn on the television and see 50 channels in a lot
    of the communities where you live. We've got a lot of information, but
    we think everything happens right now. And the truth is, a lot of things
    take a long time to unfold; a lot of the meaning of life takes a long
    time to develop.
        And one of the things that I find--to go back to your comment about
    young gang members not expecting to live very long--is that I find a lot
    of young people think the future is what happens 30 minutes from now or
    3 days from now, instead of what happens 5 or 10 or 15 years from now.
    And somehow, the adults in this country--we have to find a way to help
    young people think in a hopeful way about 5 and 10 and 15 years from now
    and understand that there are sacrifices and tough times and
    disappointments that never go away in life. They never go away no matter
    how old you are and how much you get things together. But if you can
    keep your eye on the future, then suicide doesn't become an option
    because you know there can always be a better tomorrow.
        So those are the two things I think we have to do: Teach people
    they're the most--everybody needs to be the most important person in the
    world to somebody. And people need to think of the future in terms of
    the real future, what happens years from now, not what happens minutes
    or days from now.
        Ms. Soren. What's your question for the President?

    Caning in Singapore

    [A participant discussed the sentencing of an American student to be
    caned in Singapore and asked if a similar penal system that does not
    base itself on the strong belief in individual rights would be
    beneficial in the U.S. in combating crime.]

        The President. Well, that's not where I thought you were going with
    the question. Good for you.

    [[Page 838]]

        Ms. Soren. He's obviously talking about the caning in Singapore.
        The President. Yes--the young man, Michael Fay, in Singapore. As you
    know, I have spoken out against his punishment for two reasons. One is,
    it's not entirely clear that his confession wasn't coerced from him. The
    second is that if he just were to serve 4 months in prison for what he
    did, that would be quite severe. But the caning may leave permanent
    scars, and some people who are caned, in the way they're caned, they go
    into shock. I mean, it's much more serious than it sounds. So, on the
    one hand, I don't approve of this punishment, particularly in this case.
        Now, having said that, a lot of the Asian societies that are doing
    very well now have low crime rates and high economic growth rates,
    partly because they have very coherent societies with strong units where
    the unit is more important than the individual, whether it's the family
    unit or the work unit or the community unit.
        My own view is that you can go to the extreme in either direction.
    And when we got organized as a country and we wrote a fairly radical
    Constitution with a radical Bill of Rights, giving a radical amount of
    individual freedom to Americans, it was assumed that the Americans who
    had that freedom would use it responsibly. That is, when we set up this
    country, abuse of people by Government was a big problem. So if you read
    the Constitution, it's rooted in the desire to limit the ability of--
    Government's ability to mess with you, because that was a huge problem.
    It can still be a huge problem. But it assumed that people would
    basically be raised in coherent families, in coherent communities, and
    they would work for the common good, as well as for the individual
    welfare.
        What's happened in America today is too many people live in areas
    where there's no family structure, no community structure, and no work
    structure. And so there's a lot of irresponsibility. And so a lot of
    people say there's too much personal freedom. When personal freedom's
    being abused, you have to move to limit it. That's what we did in the
    announcement I made last weekend on the public housing projects, about
    how we're going to have weapon sweeps and more things like that to try
    to make people safer in their communities. So that's my answer to you.
    We can have--the more personal freedom a society has, the more personal
    responsibility a society needs and the more strength you need out of
    your institutions, family, community, and work.

    [At this point, MTV took a commercial break.]

        Ms. Soren. Welcome back to MTV's ``Enough is Enough'' Forum with the
    President.
        Ms. Stewart. We punish more than any other nation. We produce more
    guns than any other nation, yet we have more violent crime than any
    other nation. What are our leaders doing about the situation? And will
    their newly proposed efforts trickle down to you and me?

    [At this point, a videotape about proposed crime legislation was shown.]

        Ms. Soren. Obviously, there was a lot of information crammed into
    that package. But here's our first question.

    Handgun Legislation

    [A participant praised the Brady bill and asked what the President
    proposes to do about the flow of illegal guns into this country.]

        The President. Well, first, let's get that out--the Brady bill is
    working. It is true that you can still buy an illegal gun with cash in
    the streets. But it's also true that a lot of people with criminal
    backgrounds try to buy guns in regular gun stores, and now they're being
    checked. And it's really working to prevent the sale of guns to a lot of
    criminals. So it doesn't solve all the problems, but it helps.
        Now, in terms of stemming the flow of illegal guns into the country,
    we can do things that I have already done, for example, to ban the
    import of certain guns in the country. The big problem is the number of
    guns we have in the country already and what happens to them. They're
    already about 200 million guns in circulation. And there are still a lot
    of things that are legal that shouldn't be.

    [[Page 839]]

        There is a horrible--I mean, to me--story on the cover of USA Today
    about people making automatic weapons in the United States saying, well,
    you know, if one of these automatic weapons gets taken out from under a
    bed and used by some kid illegally, it's not their problem.
        I think we should ban the--several kinds of semiautomatic assault
    weapons. I think we should pass the ban on handgun possession by minors,
    unless they're with an adult supervisor and using it for approved
    sporting purposes. I think we should go further in trying to regulate
    what these gun dealers do with these guns because they will--sometimes
    they put them in circulation in ways they know they're going to wind up
    in the hands of criminals. All these things we're moving to do now. Will
    it solve all the problems? No, it won't. Is it a step in the right
    direction? Yes, it is.
        And you cannot--one of reasons we've got the highest crime rate in
    the world and the highest murder rate is that we have more guns in the
    hands of more criminals and people who are likely to act in an impulsive
    manner. You can't--and there's no place else in the world where this
    would happen, where you'd have just people walking the streets better
    armed than the police. It's not right, and we've got to do something
    about it.
        Ms. Soren. Mr. President, we have a question over here.

    [A participant asked why the President is spending money to make it
    difficult for law-abiding citizens to obtain guns legally when the money
    could be spent on enforcing criminal justice.]

        The President. Well, first, we are doing that. I mean, this plan of
    mine--you heard the young people commenting about debating whether
    100,000 more police officers will make a difference. It will make a
    difference. It will not only catch more criminals, it will prevent more
    crime. We know that when you have police walking the streets, knowing
    the families, knowing the kids in the neighborhood, making their
    presence felt, the crime rate goes down. We also know you catch more
    criminals more quickly. The crime bill actually puts more people in
    prison. So there are a lot of issues being dealt with there.
        But keep in mind the restrictions that are put on gun ownership in
    terms of having to have background checks and waiting periods to catch
    people with criminal records. One hundred percent of the criminals in
    this country do not buy their guns off street corners. A lot of them buy
    them through gun stores, and we're going to catch those now. So it's
    worth doing. It's worth a little bit of sacrifice on the part of law-
    abiding gun owners to do that.

    [At this point, MTV took a commercial break.]

        Ms. Stewart. Welcome back to MTV's ``Enough is Enough'' Forum with
    the President. We're talking about crime legislation, and Tabitha's with
    someone who has a question.

    Crime Legislation

    [A participant asked who the ``Three strikes and you're out'' proposal
    applies to, and how many people it will affect.]

        The President. Well, I hope only a small number of people. Let me
    answer your question in this way: First of all, a small percentage of
    the criminal population--of the criminal population--commits a large
    percentage of the truly violent crimes. A lot of those folks, they're
    ``One strike and you're out''. You commit murder or rape or something
    else, you get a life sentence.
        The ``Three strikes and you're out'' bill is designed to deny parole
    to people who commit three violent crimes in a row where, by accident,
    the consequence was not as serious as it might have been. That is, no
    one died or the building didn't burn down or whatever, so the victims
    weren't hurt as badly. But this is a person who is plainly prone to do
    things that will cause life or serious bodily harm. So it will cover--
    the reason that I recommend coverage--it doesn't cover drug offenders,
    for example. It covers people who do things that are designed to hurt
    people repeatedly, and they're just lucky that nobody has died, so they
    haven't gotten a life sentence. But if they do it three times, they
    still have to serve unless they are specifically commuted; they're not
    eligible for parole.
        Ms. Soren. So does that mean it ends up affecting about 200 to 300
    people a year?

    [[Page 840]]

        The President. It wouldn't affect many people. But as I said, we
    know that a small percentage of the people are serious repeat offenders.
    A small percentage of the criminals are serious repeat offenders. And if
    this is drawn right, it will make us safer at relatively lower costs. A
    lot of people go to jail when they ought to do something else, go to a
    boot camp, be in some alternative sentencing. Arguably, we have too many
    of certain kinds of offenders in jail, but there are some people who get
    out too quickly, like that man that kidnaped and killed Polly Klaas, for
    example.
        Ms. Soren. ``Three strikes and you're out'' is so popular, but a lot
    of critics say that perhaps the jails will fill up with 60-, 70-year-old
    men and women past their crime-producing life. Do you think that's
    smart?
        The President. Well, it could happen, but let me say that in many
    States today--in my State, for example, where I'm from, if you get a
    life sentence you can't get out unless you get parole commuted by the
    Governor, anyway. So about 10 percent of our prison population are
    people on life sentences. It is rare for people over 70 to commit those
    serious crimes. It sometimes happens. If they are clearly not a danger
    to society, they ought to be able to make their case and get their
    sentence commuted.
        Ms. Stewart. Mr. President, we have a question up here.

    [A participant asked how the President proposes to prevent violent crime
    in communities where children think violence is the only way to solve
    problems.]

        The President. Perhaps the best thing about this crime bill from
    that point of view is that this is the first crime bill in my lifetime
    that--as far as I know, anyway--that has a huge amount of money
    allocated to crime prevention, to programs that work in the
    neighborhoods, for example, before and after school programs, programs
    to keep young people active, programs to give young people jobs in the
    summertime or after school, programs to give people something to say yes
    to, not just tell them something to say no to.
        There's also a huge amount of money in this crime bill for drug and
    alcohol education and prevention, as well as treatment. And there's some
    money in there that can be--for example, suppose in your community
    you've got an innovative project that you want to try. Under this crime
    bill, the States and the localities will be able to have the flexibility
    to try some things that they know work and expand them.
        One other thing I want to say--just to put a plug in because it
    hadn't come up yet--I believe that a lot of the violence that happens
    among young people your age and younger, where people just pull out
    knives or guns and shoot each other because they've been fighting over
    something--I think people can be educated out of that. There's a lot of
    evidence that you can teach young people who grow up in tough
    environments that there are other ways to solve their problems other
    than shooting or cutting up each other or beating each other. And
    there's some money in this crime bill to do that in schools all across
    this country. I also think that's very, very important.
        Ms. Soren. Next question.

    Prisons

    [A participant asked if sending criminals who commit minor crimes to
    prison is effective and asked if the correctional system can be changed
    so that prisoners do not become better trained criminals while in jail.]

        The President. Well, first of all, you're echoing what was on one of
    the earlier film segments, that a lot of young people do not fear going
    to prison. A lot of them come out of prison just better trained
    criminals.
        I think there are two things that we have to focus on. First of all,
    if you do a crime, you've got to expect to either do some time or be
    punished for it. You can't stop the system of having consequences for
    destructive behavior. But I think there are two things we can do. Number
    one, there ought to be alternatives to prison for first-time nonviolent
    offenders. People ought to get a chance to do something else that
    connects them to the community and gives them the future. Number two, if
    young people do go to prison and they're going to be paroled, and most
    everybody does get paroled, then they shouldn't be paroled unless, in
    prison, there is a good program for alcohol and drug abuse preven-

    [[Page 841]]

    tion, there is a good program for education and training, there's a good
    program, in other words, to prepare people to reenter society and be
    more successful, instead of just preparing them to do what they used to
    do, better.
        If all you do is go to the penitentiary and you deal with people who
    are tougher than you are, who are better fighters than you are, and you
    spend 2 hours a day in a weight room pumping iron, then when you get
    out, you're just prepared to do what you used to do better than you did
    before you got in. So we have to change the way people spend their time
    in prison, and we've got to divert as many first offenders as we can
    from prison the first time in community-based settings and boot camps
    and things like that.

    Community Programs

    [At this point, Ms. Stewart introduced a videotape on community programs
    designed to help children when they are small. A participant then asked
    how the President can discourage kids from becoming influenced by the
    high profits of drug dealing and pursuade them to join community
    programs designed to help them.]

        The President. Well, I think there are only two ways that a teenager
    who has a chance to make that kind of money won't do it. And maybe you
    need them both. One is that all the teenager's peers and family members
    and friends and everybody else needs to always say that this is wrong,
    and the teenager needs to believe it's wrong. Keep in mind, most of us
    obey the law most of the time not because we think we're going to get
    caught, but because we think it's wrong.
        The second thing is we need to do a better job of making people
    think there is a real price. When somebody gets into something like that
    for serious money, then we have to do what we can to cut it off. We have
    to try to be more effective on the law enforcement end, and not just
    with the people like the teenager but with the people that are supplying
    them with the dope and the money, the bigger people. And we've got to
    try to be better at that. And of course, we're trying to give ourselves
    some resources to do that better, too, in this crime bill.
        But I don't think it's very complicated. I think you either--if
    you're doing the wrong thing for money, you've either got to stop it
    because you think it's wrong or because you think you're going to get
    caught and you don't want to pay the price. And if you can't--if you
    don't have those two things, it's not very good.
        Now, let me make one other point. I think also there has to be more
    hope. I think the midnight basketball and all those things are great. I
    really support them. And funding for them is in our crime bill. But I
    also think there has to be a longer term hope, that maybe you won't have
    $1,500 in your pocket living a straight life tomorrow, but if you go
    back to school, you can get an education, and there will be a decent job
    and a good life for you over the long run and there will be more money
    at less risk with more happiness over the long run. Those are the things
    I think we have to do.
        Ms. Soren. What's your question for the President?

    Community Center Funding

    [A participant asked what funding is available to help her group start a
    community center in east Baltimore.]

        The President. First, there might be some funding through the
    Housing and Urban Development Department. And I would urge you to write
    Secretary Cisneros about that or give me something on it now. Secondly,
    your community, if they would support it, your local community could ask
    for funding through this crime bill prevention strategy to do it.
        I think it's very important. These community centers can make a huge
    difference, especially if the tenants support them, if the adults as
    well as the kids support them. But I think that you should be able to
    get some support for that from one of those two sources.
        Mayor Schmoke in Baltimore has been extremely active in the whole
    housing area. He's done some of the most innovative and impressive
    things in the country, and there may be, for all I know, some help the
    city government itself can give you. But if you'll give me your name and
    address at the end of the program, I'll see what I can do to help.

    [[Page 842]]

        Q. Okay, thank you.
        Ms. Stewart. Okay, who are you, and what's your question for the
    President?

    Television Violence

    [A participant asked why the Attorney General and the Congress are
    focusing on TV violence when real violence has become such a problem.]

        The President. I don't know that the Attorney General and the
    Congress want a law--at least I don't think a majority of the Congress
    wants a law to limit what can be on television. But there is some
    evidence that the accumulated exposure to random violence over years and
    years and years by a generation of young people who watch far more
    television than their predecessors did has some effect on people's
    willingness to then go out and recreate what they've been exposed to on
    television.
        Now, I'm not against all violence in movies and TV. I thought--for
    example, I thought that movie ``Boyz N' the Hood'' was a great movie,
    because--it was a very violent movie, but it showed you the real--it was
    a true movie. I mean, it showed you what the horrible consequences to
    life and to family was of that kind of behavior.
        But I think what bothers people about television is not so much this
    or that or the other program but the overall impact of watching several
    hours a day every day and just one violent scene after another coming at
    you. If you start doing that when you're about 5 years old, by the time
    you're 15, 16, or 17, there may be a whole lot of messages in your mind
    that may make you more prone to be violent, again, if you don't have an
    off-setting influence from the family, the school, the church, the
    community, some other place. That is the concern. It is not that there
    are bad people doing the television or that one program or two, in and
    of themselves, can make a difference. The question is whether the
    overall impact of it makes young people more likely to be violent.
        Ms. Soren. Mr. President, our next question is over here.

    Public Trust in Government

    [A participant expressed the frustration and anger many young people
    feel toward the bureaucracy of Government and asked if the present
    administration will be able to keep its promises and make a difference.]

        The President. Well, all I can say is you just have to watch and
    see. Insofar as the Congress has worked with me, we've been able to do a
    large number of the things that I said I'd do when I ran for President.
    I came on MTV, and we talked about the motor voter bill; we signed it
    after years of not signing it. It took--for 7 years the Brady bill was
    hung up in Congress. When I became President, we passed it; we signed
    it. The national service bill was something I ran on, trying to get
    young people like you interested in community service and then allowing
    you, in return for that community service, to earn money against a
    college education. It was passed and signed.
        So we're able--we are making progress on the commitments I made to
    the American people in general and to the young people of this country.
    We redid the student loan program, so now you can pay a loan back--
    college loan back as a percentage of your income. So I'm trying to do
    what I say I'll do. All I can tell you is--this is a general rule--
    cynicism is a cop-out because once you become cynical and you say
    somebody else is not going to do something, that lets you off the hook.
    And in the end, we can only go forward if we believe in each other,
    until we understand we can't believe in each other anymore.
        So I would plead with you--it's a very fair question. You've got a
    lot of reasons to be disappointed. But we can make a difference if we
    work at it together. And neither you nor I will be able to do everything
    we want to do, but we can do a lot of the things we should do if we'll
    get to work on it.

    Whitewater and Vietnam Draft

        Ms. Soren. Mr. President, you speak so passionately and directly
    about issues like violence and education. But why is it, when the issues
    pertain to you personally, like the draft or Whitewater, that people
    seem to get the idea that you're giving them less than a straight
    answer, even when you have nothing to hide?
        The President: Well, first of all, I think it's hard to know what
    the rules are; they

    [[Page 843]]

    keep raising the bar. Let me just give you a real answer to that. I was
    asked by the press and the Republicans to agree to a special counsel on
    Whitewater, right, even though there were--no one had accused me of
    doing anything wrong, and therefore, there was no ground, traditionally,
    to have a special counsel. Everybody said, prove your innocence. In a
    country where people are presumed innocent, the President isn't. You've
    got to go prove your innocence, even though no one's accused you of
    anything wrong. So I agreed. I said, okay, we'll have a special counsel.
        Then, in past special counsels, Presidents have resisted subpoenas,
    applied things like executive privilege. I cooperated entirely. And the
    Watergate special counsel said we were a big departure from the past;
    this administration has totally cooperated.
        The press keeps saying, ``Well, we said special counsel, but now we
    want to ask questions anyway. And you've got to have all the answers
    right now, and if you don't, you're not being forthcoming.'' Well, I
    couldn't remember everything I was asked. It's been a long time since
    you had somebody who's given you 17 years worth of tax returns, for
    example. But I don't think it's fair to say we haven't been candid.
        Now, maybe in the beginning I didn't want to just shut the
    Government down and just do Whitewater. And I still don't. But I have
    tried to be as honest as I could. I also, frankly, have questions. I
    don't think just because you become President that everything all of a
    sudden should be subject to answering.
        I disagree on the draft; I did my best to be candid. And that's
    another interesting thing, the person that made the draft charge against
    me was the person who changed his story. Not me, I didn't change mine;
    somebody else changed theirs.
        Ms. Soren. I think what angers young people about Whitewater is the
    fact that it seems like it's slowing down all of the other important
    issues that they want to get through.
        The President. I think that does bother you, but you shouldn't worry
    about that, at least not now, because the reason I agreed to have a
    special counsel look into it is so anybody who asks me a question, I can
    say, I'm going to give it all to the special counsel. If I did anything
    wrong, he'll find out--so that it wouldn't slow us down.
        And let me just say, this year already, we've signed a major
    education bill to try to improve public schools in America and set
    world-class standards for all our schools. We are proceeding at a very
    rapid rate on the crime bill. We are proceeding toward passing a budget
    at the most rapid rate in recent memory, which, if it passes, will lower
    the Government's deficit for 3 years in a row for the first time since
    Harry Truman was President. We are proceeding on health care reform. So
    we are moving ahead.
        So far, the work of the Congress has not been diverted, and the work
    of the Presidency has not been diverted. I know it may be hard--you
    can't tell, in other words, from the news coverage that, but that's the
    truth. And we're not going to let it be diverted if we can possibly help
    it.

    Violence in Schools

    [Ms. Stewart showed a videotape on guns at school. A participant then
    described the shooting of a teacher in his school and asked when funding
    would be available for metal detectors.]

        The President. In the crime bill there's about $300 million for safe
    schools. And the money will be given out to the schools that have a
    demonstrated need for it. So I would urge you to apply for the money.
        I don't know what all of your reaction to all this was, but I
    remember when we all started going through metal detectors to get on
    airplanes, a lot of people were upset. Now everybody just does it as a
    matter of course. I think until we get guns out of the hands of our
    young people, every school that needs it ought to have whatever security
    is needed to take care of that. You ought to be safe at school. Then
    you've got the problem of going to and from school. That's what the
    community policing is supposed to take care of. But I think every school
    that needs it ought to have this kind of security. People should be safe
    in the school, and they ought to know when they get there they're going
    to be safe.

    [[Page 844]]

    Bosnia

    [Following a commercial break, a participant stated that she voted for
    the President because he indicated he would not let ethnic cleansing
    continue in Bosnia, and she expressed frustration with the current
    policy.]

        The President. Well, first of all, go back and talk about everything
    I said. I also said that the United States should not enter the war, a
    civil war, on the side of the Bosnian Government. I said that the United
    States should not put its troops there to get involved in what was a
    centuries-old conflict. But we should do, what we could to stop the
    fighting and to stop ethnic cleansing. So you have to tell the whole
    story; if you're going to give my campaign commitment, give the whole
    thing.
        I advocated having NATO's air power put at the service of the
    Bosnian Government to stop aggression by the Serbs and lifting the arms
    embargo. The United Nations was in Bosnia. Our United Nations allies,
    France and Britain, would not support lifting the arms embargo. It took
    me from the time I took office until August to get NATO committed to use
    their air power to try to stop the aggression; they did. Then, finally,
    we began to do that.
        Now look what's happened. In 15 months, which may seem like a long
    time, but is not such a long time, we now have finally relieved the
    siege of Sarajevo, and the Croatians and the Muslims have gotten
    together in an agreement. The Serbs are doing what they've always done;
    they're just trying to get as much land as they can for greater Serbia.
        We're doing what we can, but everything we do, we do through the
    United Nations or through NATO. I have never favored--I was explicit in
    the campaign--unilateral United States action. If we do that, if we go
    into Bosnia all by ourselves, say, ``We know what's right, nobody else
    does,'' then why should any other nation ever work with us through the
    United Nations? Why should the nations who don't agree with the embargo
    on Iraq that we imposed go along with it?
        So I think we have done the best we could with a very difficult
    situation when we don't have troops on the ground, and I don't think we
    should until we get a peace agreement. I also believe that American
    troops should participate in Bosnia in trying to enforce a peace
    agreement once one is achieved.

    [Ms. Soren asked if the President would support expanded air strikes
    given recent events in Gorazde.]

        The President. Well, I'm working on that. I met for an hour and a
    half this morning; I'm going to work for the rest of the day. Then I'll
    have an announcement about what our policy will be later. But I can't
    announce it now.
        Ms. Soren. Not now? Okay. Thanks a lot.
        The President. I understand your frustration. Let me just say, I
    understand your frustration, but when I took office, the United Nations
    was already there. Their job was to try to provide humanitarian relief.
    Since I have been there, the U.S. took the lead in providing the longest
    humanitarian airlift in history, longer than the Berlin airlift after
    the Second World War. We pushed NATO to get more actively involved. We
    have been actively involved. We have made some progress.
        There is still a war on the ground. The Bosnian Government has a
    bigger army than the Serbs do, but the Serbs have the heavy artillery.
    We tried to take the heavy artillery away from Sarajevo. That has worked
    so far. But until they reach an agreement, both sides are still fighting
    on the ground. Yes, Gorazde has been attacked by the Serbs; the Bosnian
    Government's also made some military gains elsewhere.
        Do I think what the Serbs did was right? No, I don't. The United
    Nations recognized Bosnia. Should they have never imposed an arms
    embargo on them? I don't think they should have. But right now we are
    doing everything we can to bring an end to the war on terms that provide
    the Bosnian Muslims and the people who want to be part of a multiethnic
    state the best deal we can possibly get, given the circumstances as they
    exist. And that's the best we can do. The United States cannot go over
    there unilaterally, send its forces in, and start fighting on the side
    of the Bosnian Government. I don't think that is the right thing to do.

    [[Page 845]]

    Music and Violence

    [A participant stated that her favorite rapper was Snoop Doggy Dogg and
    asked the President's opinion on gangsta rap.]

        The President. I don't know. I'm not dodging your--I just don't
    know. I read an article about Snoop Doggy Dogg. It is not exactly my
    music, you know; I don't necessarily know a lot about it. [Laughter] So
    I read an article about it, and I was interested in the--in the article
    that I read he talked about his life, you know, and the time he'd done.
    And the writer of the article talked about the whole idea behind gangsta
    rap was trying to dramatize how difficult life is for young people.
        So I guess the answer is, it depends on what the end of the song is.
    I mean, what is the purpose of it? Is it to make people understand and
    empathize with and try to do something about these terrible problems? Or
    is it to legitimize violence and criminal conduct and, ultimately, self-
    defeating behavior? And for me to answer your question, I'd have to know
    the answer to that, and I just don't know enough to answer it.

    Gun Exchange Programs

    [A participant discussed the effectiveness of the gun exchange program
    and asked what national programs could be enacted to get guns off the
    streets.]

        The President. Well, actually we're looking at that. We're looking
    at what, if anything, we can do on a national basis to try to have a
    more effective handgun purchasing program or gathering program.
        I'm not so concerned that maybe some people buy them on the black
    market and make a little profit on them if the guns are actually
    destroyed and taken out of commission, and if then we have more control
    over the circumstances under which people buy the next gun. But you're
    talking about tens of millions of guns. We're talking about major
    numbers of guns. And it seems to me if we're going to do this
    effectively--and I think we ought to look at it--you have to know what
    happens to the guns when the government takes possession of them,
    whether it's a city or a State or the Federal Government, what happens
    to them then.
        I think there's a lot of merit in doing this, but it seems to me you
    have to melt down the guns, you've got to destroy the weapons in order
    for it to be worth the effort so you reduce the overall supply of black
    market guns.

    Teen Violence

    [A participant stated that she believed violence among teens was
    becoming something of a status symbol.]

        The President. You mean you think a lot of people do it because they
    think it's the thing to do now?
        Q. Yes.
        The President. I think there's something to that. But that's why I
    think it's so important that in the schools and wherever else young
    people can be found, there are real efforts to show people that it is
    not a status symbol, that it can ruin your life, that it can destroy
    somebody else's life, and that there are other more satisfactory ways to
    resolve your conflicts.
        I mean, there was just another story today about one student
    shooting another student over a girl they were both interested in. Well,
    you know, if you live long enough, that will happen to you several
    times; you can't start shooting people over that. But it happens all the
    time now.
        And I think that it's a terrible indictment of all of us, the adults
    in this country, that we haven't provided the kind of leadership to our
    young people to know that that is not the way to behave. And I think
    there are too many young people who just feel like they're out there on
    their own. How many of these films did we see where these young people
    say ``Our parents don't care about us. No grownups care about us. Nobody
    really cares about us?'' If you go back to that, people have to believe
    they're really important to somebody who really cares about them before
    that person can help to change their behavior. I really believe that.
    And I say we've got to--and that goes back to your question about the
    gangster rap. She asked the same question in a different way. I don't
    know. I just know we've got to demystify violence, and we've got to say
    it's a bad thing. It is not a good thing; it is a bad thing.

    [[Page 846]]

    Drugs and Crime

    [Ms. Soren discussed drugs as a major cause of random violent crime, and
    a participant asked the President if he thought mandatory sentences for
    drug offenders were effective.]

        The President. I think the mandatory sentencing program has--of
    course, keep in mind, that's basically a Federal program, although New
    York also has a mandatory sentencing program. Some States have it, and
    some States don't. By and large, there have been a lot of problems with
    mandatory sentencing programs related to drugs because they tend to
    treat cases that are different, the same.
        The second thing I have to say is that there isn't enough drug
    treatment on demand. We know that appropriate drug treatment, if you
    also accompany it with something that a young person can do, works in
    more than half the cases. So I think what we need to do is to focus on
    having an appropriate level of punishment but also an appropriate
    alternative so people can move out of the life they're living. That's
    what I think.
        So the mandatory sentencing program, there have been problems with
    all of them, largely because they tend to treat cases that really are
    different, fundamentally the same.
        Now, on the other hand, if you listen to anybody talk, they'll also
    tell you a lot of people get parole without doing an appropriate amount
    of time. So the system is not as rational as it ought to be. And I do
    think there's some problems with the sentencing. I'd like to see some
    changes.
        Ms. Soren. Many politicians are afraid to back away from the
    mandatory minimum sentencing that started in the eighties because it
    would make them look soft on crime. But if your ``Three strikes and
    you're out'' becomes law, couldn't you repeal the mandatory minimums?
        The President. I think we could certainly change it some. Let me
    say, one of the things, though, that frustrates people when there were
    no guidelines is that people who were the same were treated wildly
    differently. That also makes--to go back to the young man's question--
    this is the frustrating thing about--should there be sentencing
    guidelines or should there not be? When people who are different and
    their circumstances are different are treated the same, we all get mad,
    right? And we should. But when people who are the same in their offense
    and their degree of guilt are treated dramatically differently, we all
    get mad.
        So there is no perfect solution to this. But I will say again, what
    are the important things: crime prevention; when people get in trouble,
    do drug education and treatment, do education; and give people something
    to say yes to when they get out, because there will never be a fully
    perfect way of sentencing.
        Would I have the power to say, maybe we ought to take another look
    at this, with ``Three strikes and you're out,'' with my long support for
    the capital punishment? I think so. But there is no perfect answer to
    the sentencing problem when you have a crime problem as big as ours is.
    And the real thing you've got to do is focus on what happens to the
    people once they're in the prison, once they're in the boot camp. And
    more importantly, what can you do to keep people out of the system in
    the first place? What can we do to prevent this?

    [A participant stated that she believed drug addicts should not be
    placed in prisons and asked if there should be more drug prevention and
    rehabilitation programs to help drug addicts.]

        The President. I agree with half of what you said. I think there
    should be more drug prevention programs, and I think they'd work, the
    drug education programs. I think there should be more drug treatment
    programs. But some of you, perhaps all of you know that my brother is a
    recovering drug addict who actually went to prison for 14 months. It is
    my opinion that if he hadn't been caught up in the criminal justice
    system, he probably would have died because his problem was so gross and
    so bad. And I think he would tell you the same thing if he were standing
    here with me.
        So I don't think it's inappropriate for people to do some time for
    violating serious crimes when they have a drug problem, and it may
    actually jerk them out of the life they're in and help to save their
    life. But I would say two things. Number one, you don't

    [[Page 847]]

    want to overdo the length of time they have to serve; if fundamentally
    they're not drug pushers, they're really drug users and abusers and
    addicts, you can overdo the length of time. And number two, you've got
    to have adequate drug treatment, as well as preparation for living a
    different life if you want a different kind of behavior coming out of
    the prison than you got going in. That, it seems to me, is the biggest
    problem.
        So a little time won't hurt people who are in the process of killing
    themselves anyway, if you make the most of them. But if you just send
    them to prison for a too-long sentence and you never do drug treatment
    and they get nothing when they come out, then you're right, it's self-
    defeating.

    [Following a commercial break, Ms. Soren conducted a poll of the
    audience to determine if they thought the Government's priority should
    be programs and education to prevent crime or punishment of criminals.]

        Ms. Stewart. Somewhat overwhelming for prevention in the room,
    President Clinton. Are you surprised by that at all?
        The President. No, because I think a lot of young people know others
    who have been to prison and haven't been deterred and because I think
    the problem seems so overwhelming. People know that you've got to change
    behavior, you have to change people from the inside out. You have to
    change community by community, school by school.
        My own belief is that we shouldn't make a choice, because the two
    things can work together. You can be tough, and you can be
    compassionate. You can be oriented toward prevention, but when somebody
    does something really horrible, you just can't walk away from it. You
    can't. So I think you have to do both.
        But one thing I'd like to say to all of you who are here--there is a
    limit to what the Government can do unless people are working at
    grassroots level. And everyone of you, if you really care about this,
    could make a contribution to making the problem better. Is there an
    organization in your school? Is there an organization in your community?
    If you believe in prevention, are you doing something to try to touch
    somebody else? Because most people have to be rescued one at a time,
    just the way they get lost, one at a time. And there will never be
    enough police officers; there will never be enough Government workers to
    do this. So I would just urge you--we had one young lady from Baltimore
    there who said she was going to work on setting up a community center. I
    think that there are things that you can do to give people something to
    say yes to that will make this prevention strategy work. And all the
    crime bill funds are basically just designed to give you the right, you
    and people like you all over America, to get together with people who
    care about this and do something about it in school after school and
    neighborhood after neighborhood.
        Ms. Soren. So even though there's approximately $16 billion for
    police and prisons, some of that money is preventative and treatment
    and----
        The President. In the House bill, I think, there is about $7 billion
    for prevention. There's a lot of money for prevention, much more than
    ever before from the Federal Government.
        Ms. Soren. One thing that we didn't get a chance to talk about, but
    there were a lot of questions about was the role of families in
    preventing violence. Can you legislate a better family? Can you----
        The President. No. No, but you can have pro-family policies. A lot
    of this violence occurs within the family. And you can have policies,
    for example, that don't push people into welfare. We lowered taxes for
    working people, one in six American families, for working people whose
    incomes are very low and who have children. We're trying to pass health
    care reform so people will never have to go on welfare just to get
    health care. We passed the family leave law, so when there are problems
    in the family, people can get off work and take a little time off work
    and tend to their problems with their children without losing their
    jobs.
        In other words, the Government can do things that say we want to
    support family. And with more and more single-parent families and with
    more parents having to work, even when their children are very young, we
    have to be thinking all the time about how we can do things to help
    people succeed as parents and as workers. And then, when fam-

    [[Page 848]]

    ilies get in trouble, we need to work on how we can preserve the family,
    not just how we can deal with the kids after it falls apart.
        None of these things are easy, but frankly, if all of the families
    in this country were functional, we'd have less than half of the
    problems we've got today. I think all of you know that. We'd still have
    some problems, but we'd have less than half the problems we've got. And
    so we have to really keep that in mind.

    [Following a commercial break, Ms. Soren invited participants to ask
    brief questions on any topic they choose.]

    Popular Culture and Private Life

        Q. Mr. President, I'm curious to know how your meeting with Pearl
    Jam went.
        The President. It was great. [Laughter] My daughter was jealous that
    she wasn't in the White House that day.
        Q. Mr. President, do you speak any other languages?
        The President. I studied German in college, and I can still read it
    and understand it a little bit, but my speaking is way down.
        Q. Mr. President, I was wondering if you'd ever asked your daughter
    not to wear a specific piece of clothing to school.
        The President. No, I haven't, although we've had a lot of general
    conversations about clothing. [Laughter]
        Q. Mr. President, The world's dying to know, is it boxers or briefs?
    [Laughter]
        The President. Usually briefs. I can't believe she did that.
    [Laughter]
        Q. How do you feel about the Secret Service following you around
    everywhere you go?
        The President. It's hard sometimes. But they do a good job
    protecting me and my family. And it's their job, so I'm getting used to
    it. But it's hard.
        Ms. Soren. Do you keep a diary?
        The President. No. I try to collect my recollections on a periodic
    basis, but I don't keep a daily diary.
        Q. Mr. President, what was the best advice your mother ever gave
    you?
        The President. Never give up.
        Q. Mr. President, first of all, I want to say that I think you're
    great. Second of all, I want you to say, ``yes,'' ``no,'' or ``I don't
    know.'' Will you run in '96?
        The President. Probably. [Laughter]
        Q. Do you have a charity you contribute to regularly?
        The President. Yes, I do. We, my wife and I, contribute to a shelter
    for battered women and their children back home, regularly, and a number
    of other charities. We always give money to the Children's Defense Fund.
        Q. Mr. President, what's your idea of the perfect day?
        The President. A good book, a good game of golf, a long run, dinner
    with my wife and daughter, and movies with friends. You've got to stay
    up a long time to do all that. [Laughter]
        Q. What do you think about the Clinton jokes?
        The President. The what?
        Q. What do you think about the Clinton jokes?
        The President. Some are funny, and some aren't.

    Presidential Nominations

        Q. Do you regret not giving Lani Guinier the chance to defend her
    views to the Senate?
        The President. Well, she defended them to a lot of individual
    Senators. The problem was we were facing a very divisive fight over an
    issue in which she and I had a fundamental disagreement, of which I was
    unaware at the time she was nominated. She might have been able to get
    confirmed, but based on what I was hearing from the Democrats, I doubt
    it. I think she's a very fine woman. She's one of the best civil rights
    lawyers in the country, and she's going to have a great career.
        Q. In light of Justice Blackmun's recent decision, what do you think
    the chances are that you will replace the vacant seat with a minority
    that will, in fact, represent the needs and the concerns of minorities
    like Thurgood Marshall once did?
        The President. Well, I'm going to try to make a good appointment,
    but I haven't made up my mind who to appoint yet. I think Justice
    Ginsberg, whom I appointed last time, Ruth Bader Ginsberg, will be
    terrific. And I will try to make--I hope when I'm done, you will think
    that all my Federal judge appointments not only are the most diverse

    [[Page 849]]

    but are the most excellent in American history. And we're on the way to
    having the most diverse and the most highly qualified appointments.
        Ms. Soren. Can you give us your short list?
        The President. I could, but I won't. [Laughter]

    Popular Culture and Private Life

        Q. Mr. President, I was wondering, what is your favorite song, and
    do you think you could sing a little bit of it?
        The President. I have a lot of favorite songs, but I love the song
    that Ray Charles won the R&B Grammy for this year, ``A Song For You,'' a
    song written by Leon Russell. I don't know if you know it, it's an
    unbelievable song.
        Q. Would you sing----
        The President. No. [Laughter] ``Our love is in a place that has no
    space or time. I love you for my life. You are a friend of mine.'' Do
    you know the song? It's a wonderful song, but he sings it better than I
    do.
        Q. Do you support Howard Stern's candidacy for Governor of New York?
        The President. I support his right to run. [Laughter]
        Ms. Stewart. Do you have a favorite Biblical passage that means a
    lot to you?
        The President. ``Let us not grow weary in doing good, for in due
    season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.'' Galatians 6:9.
        Q. Mr. President, what's your favorite type of running shoe?
        The President. What did you say?
        Q. What's your favorite type of running shoe?
        The President. New Balance, and--I normally wear New Balance or
    Asics. I like them both. They're slightly different. I need some that a
    heavy guy can run in without falling. [Laughter]
        Q. What has been your toughest obstacle as President?
        The President. I think sort of the culture of Washington, a lot of
    partisanship and a lot of negativism and focus on process, who's in and
    out and who's up and down; instead of let's all get together, pull the
    American together, put the country first.

    Admiral Frank Kelso

        Ms. Soren. Do you think Admiral Kelso should get all his stars when
    he retires, despite his role in the Tailhook scandal?
        The President. Based on the facts as I know them, I do. I believe
    that the evidence is not sufficiently compelling that he knew about it
    and that he was sufficiently culpable to deny him his stars. That's a
    very severe thing to do, and I don't believe the evidence warrants it.
    That's based on the Inspector General's report in the Pentagon.

    Popular Culture and Private Life

        Q. Mr. President, who's your favorite jazz saxophonist?
        The President. Boy, that's tough. Probably Stan Getz.
        Q. Mr. President, how do you feel about your likeness on ``Beavis
    and Butthead?''
        The President. Sometimes I like it; sometimes I don't.
        Ms. Soren. We're about out of time. Thank you, Mr. President, for
    joining us today and continuing the dialog with young people.
        The President. Thank you.

    Note: The interview began at 11:30 a.m. in the Kalorama Studio. In his
    remarks, he referred to entertainers Pearl Jam and Howard Stern, and
    Adm. Frank B. Kelso II, USN, Chief of Naval Operations. A portion of
    this interview could not be verified because the tape was incomplete.