[Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: George W. Bush (2008, Book II)]
[December 5, 2008]
[Pages 1424-1431]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]



Interview With Nadia Bilbassy Charters of MBC TV
December 5, 2008

The Oval Office

    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Mr. President, nice to see you always.
    The President. Welcome, welcome.
    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Thank you very much. Thank you, sir.
    The President. We are glad you're here.
    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Thank you very much.
    The President. Come on in to the Oval Office.
    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. We are grateful for this. Thank you. This is 
great.
    The President. It's an interesting history here, and I kind of think 
one thing that your viewers might be interested in knowing is that the 
first decision I ever made as President--but I was actually President-
elect--was, what color rug do you want? And one of the important things 
is to surround yourself with people who you can trust and delegate. In 
this case, I delegated the rug design to Laura, 
my wife.
    But I told her, I said, I want the rug to have a message, and that 
is ``optimistic guy goes to work here.'' And so, as you can see, the rug 
really lights up the room. And I am optimistic about the future of the 
Middle East.

Freedom Agenda/Middle East

    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Well, that's a great note, sir. You've been 
here 8 years. A few weeks and you're going to be leaving.
    The President. I'm going home.
    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. You sat on this desk for 8 years, and you 
took many decisions regarding our region. You launched the greater 
Middle East initiative that you want to democratize, reform the Middle 
East. In retrospect, do you think that vision was realized? Would you do 
anything differently?
    The President. Well, I think it began--it's the beginning of a very 
difficult vision to implement. But I felt it was necessary for a couple 
of important reasons. One, I believe we're in an ideological struggle 
against people who want to achieve their ideological vision through the 
use of violence and murder. And I believe it is essential that you have 
an alternative available for people; the one I happen to believe in is 
based upon liberty. I don't think this

[[Page 1425]]

is an American vision, see. And I tell people this, that I do believe 
there is a universal God, and a gift of that Almighty to all of us, 
whether we be Methodists or Muslims or nothing, is freedom. And so 
freedom is a great alternative.
    But I also believe there's a moral calling. If you believe there's 
an Almighty God, and a gift of that Almighty to everybody is freedom, 
then I think you have to--if you can do something about it, that you 
have to act on that, so that moms can grow up in a society that is 
hopeful for their children, you know, that their children are--can 
realize dreams.
    And to me the best type of society to do that is freedom. But it's 
very hard; it's difficult. And so you have to plant a seed, and you have 
to cultivate the seed, and eventually the crops will bloom. And we're 
beginning to see the crops beginning to bloom in parts of the Middle 
East.

War on Terror

    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Sir, some people say that the war on terror 
is a war on Islam.
    The President. Yes.
    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Yet you went to the first mosque after 9/11, 
and you spoke there. How do you convince people in the Middle East that 
George Bush is not fighting a war against Islam?
    The President. No, I know, and it troubles my soul, because I 
believe we're all God's children. And I hear people say, ``George Bush 
doesn't like Muslims, he wants to fight Muslims.'' And first, I thank 
you for giving me the chance to, hopefully, set the record straight. But 
I am objecting to anybody who murders innocent people to achieve their 
objectives. I don't think people who murder in the name of religion are 
truly religious people. And secondly, I would hope that people would 
know that when we try to use some of our influence to help on education 
programs, for example, or we welcome students, Saudi students, to the 
United States to study here, that it's a sign of respect and a sign of 
my desire to reach out to all people regardless of their religion.

Reflections on the President's Time in Office

    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Absolutely. I wanted also to ask you about, 
in the last 8 years, if you look back, would you do things differently? 
Would you have done things that you probably thought for a second--for 
the second time, I would have done them a different way?
    The President. I'm sure there will be. I mean, there's been some 
disappointments.
    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Like what?
    The President. Well, like, Abu Ghraib was a terrible disappointment. 
And admittedly, I wasn't there on the site, but I was the Commander in 
Chief of a military where these disgraceful acts took place that sent 
the absolute wrong image about America and our military.
    You know, parts of Iraq, it's taken longer than I thought it would. 
On the other hand, I am pleased to see a multiethnic society begin to 
emerge. I talked to the leaders of Iraq yesterday and today and 
congratulated them on doing some hard work. And I love to hear their 
spirit in their voice.
    And so I'm confident history will say, ``Oh, Bush could have done it 
better here,'' or, ``Bush could have done it better there.'' But I think 
from the strategic point of view, I'm confident that the idea of moving 
liberty in the region, a two-state solution to help the Israeli-
Palestinian issue, the liberation of Iraq, and the follow-up with the--
to help the Iraqis realize their sovereignty--a strong push-back against 
Iran--I believe when people objectively analyze this administration, 
they'll say, ``Well, I see now what he was trying to do.''

Middle East Peace Process

    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. I mean, the Arab peace initiative, it was a 
framework. Do you think that President-elect Obama

[[Page 1426]]

should use it in terms of achieving peace in the Middle East?
    The President. I definitely think it was a major breakthrough for 
then Crown Prince, now His Majesty, King Abdallah, to take the initiative and lay out the 
conditions for peace. And it is, I think, a useful foundation to help 
solve a longstanding problem. I do believe there will be a Palestinian 
state. I feel comfortable in saying that the decision--my decision to 
promote a Palestinian state, being the first President to do so, was the 
right thing for peace--right thing for peace for the Palestinians, right 
thing for peace for the Israelis. And His Majesty was very useful and 
very bold in laying out the Arab peace initiative.

The Rose Garden

    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. We're going to talk about all this in details 
so----
    The President. Yes, come on, I'll show you the Rose Garden.
    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. ----let's walk and talk as we go down to the 
Map Room.
    The President. You've seen the Rose Garden before.
    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. I have, many times.
    The President. Many times. [Laughter]
    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Thank you, sir. It's beautiful.
    The President. It is a beautiful day.

The Presidency

    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. What are you going to miss most about this 
place?
    The President. Well, you know, I'll miss a lot. I am--I've got such 
respect for our military, and I admire people in our military so very 
much. I'll miss being the Commander in Chief. But you know, the White 
House is full of incredibly gracious and kind people who work hard to 
make family life as normal as possible. And so I'll miss a lot of the 
people we work with here.

Post-Presidency Plans

    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. And what's your plans?
    The President. Well, I'm going to move back to Texas.
    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. And what are you going to do there?
    The President. And I'm going to, you know, write a book, I think, 
about what it was like to be President and some of the hard decisions I 
had to make. I'm going to start a institute that will promote freedom. 
And this will be an interesting place, particularly in regards to the 
Middle East, because this will be a place where there will be a forum 
for people with different issues to come and discuss.
    You know, I would love to have, you know, Palestinians, such as the 
President or the Prime 
Minister, to come and describe to the Americans 
what it was like to be in that part of the world. Or you know, there's 
just a lot of really interesting opportunities for people to come and 
lecture and think and talk.
    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. And in your book, obviously, we're talking 
about foreign policy. Most of it happened in the Middle East--okay, 
we're off camera now. I hope the guy is okay.
    The President.  A lot of--yes. He fell into the Rose Garden.

[At this point, there was a change in location, and the interview 
resumed as follows.]

Middle East Peace Process/West Bank

    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Mr. President, thank you very much for this 
exclusive interview with us----
    The President. Thank you.
    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. ----and thank you very much for granting us, 
to MEBC, and to me, personally, on behalf of Arab media. I really do 
appreciate it; I'm very grateful.
    The President. Thank you. I've enjoyed working with you. You've been 
a very fair

[[Page 1427]]

journalist, and it's been a pleasure to have known you.
    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Thank you, sir. You are the first American 
President to call for the establishment of a Palestinian state. You had 
hoped that you would have this state realized when you leave office. Do 
you think that you could have done more? Do you think that you have 
thrown all of the weight of the U.S. behind this vision?
    The President. Absolutely. We threw all the muscle and all the 
weight of the United States behind the vision. I am--you know, I wish 
there would have been a clearly defined state by the time I left office. 
However, I do take comfort in a couple of things.
    One, the attitude toward a Palestinian state has shifted. I think 
there's universal recognition in the region that in order for there to 
be peace, there must be two states living side by side in peace. 
Secondly, I am pleased that Prime Minister Olmert and President Abbas, after Annapolis, have worked very hard to narrow the 
differences on a variety of issues. And they have; they've made 
substantial progress.
    Thirdly, I am pleased that there is the Arab peace plan, which is an 
essential part of creating the conditions for a Palestinian state to 
evolve. Fourthly, I'm grateful that at the Annapolis conference all Arab 
nations were represented, which is an important signal, because I 
learned a lesson in studying previous efforts for peace that there must 
be regional buy-in. In other words, the nations in the region must stand 
with the Palestinians, in particular, and say this is--we support you.
    And so--and fifthly, by the way, I am pleased with the progress 
being made to help the development of an infrastructure in the West 
Bank. Prime Minister Fayyad has asked for help. 
A lot of nations are helping, including the United States; we're helping 
with security measures. Generals Dayton and 
Jones have been very helpful. My friend Prime 
Minister Blair--former Prime Minister Blair, who 
was here the other night for dinner--and I talked about the economics 
that are beginning to take place in the region. In other words, a state 
can be defined on paper, but it also has to be defined in a civil 
society and a strong economy. And it's beginning to happen.

Middle East Peace Process/Gaza Strip

    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. How do you see the Palestinian issue evolving 
in the next few years? I mean, Prime Minister Tony Blair said, actually, 
there's no peace without Gaza, and I guess that means Hamas as well. Do 
you share that vision?
    The President. I share the vision that the only way there's going to 
be peace is where those who assume that violence is necessary to achieve 
peace cannot be a part of the process. In other words, people have to 
renounce violence in order to have peace. It's contradictory to say, I 
am going to use violence to achieve my objectives, and oh, by the way, 
I'm for peace.
    And so ultimately, Gaza has got to be--look, Gaza has to be a part 
of a Palestinian state, and the Palestinian state has to be contiguous 
territory; it cannot look like Swiss cheese. And it's got to be a state 
in which the sovereignty of the Palestinian people is--reigns supreme.

Middle East Peace Process/Palestinian State

    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. So you're confident it's going to emerge?
    The President. I am. I really am. There will be fits and starts. I 
mean, if this were a straight line between vision and reality, it would 
have happened. But there's a lot of complicating factors. Obviously, the 
terrorists create complicating factors. Secondly, politics creates 
complicating factors, both within the Palestinians, as well as the 
Israelis, as we have seen.
    But nevertheless, the foundation is there. People--if you give 
people a choice, ultimately give them a choice between two states side 
by side in peace or this unresolved dispute, what would they choose?

[[Page 1428]]

They would choose peace. And this will happen.

Middle East Peace Process

    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. What will President-elect Obama pick up from 
where you left?
    The President. Well, I think we've left it in good shape. We've left 
it with the vision intact. In other words, a lot of people now share the 
vision of two states. As I say, there's been progress between the 
Israeli Prime Minister and the Palestinian 
President toward what a state 
should look like. I think the Israelis are getting--be more comfortable 
with the notion that a state won't create less security for them, but 
more security for them. And the Arab world, because of the Arab 
initiative as well as the Annapolis conference, are showing more and 
more willingness to be constructive partners in getting peace.

Saudi Arabia-U.S. Relations

    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. The U.S. and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia have 
a close strategic relationship. You personally have a very good working 
relationship with King Abdallah. Yet you don't see eye to eye on many 
issues. How did you resolve that?
    The President. I think we do. I think we got--I think we agree more 
than we disagree. First of all, I hold His Majesty in high respect. I appreciate, for example, 
the religious dialogue that he instigated, and I was honored to be 
invited to go to New York. I thought that was a very smart way to help 
promote understanding, and understanding eventually leads to peace.
    He is a man who 
understands that terrorists can destroy his own society. And so I--I 
don't know if the world understands this or not, but Saudi Arabia has 
been very firm in dealing with Al Qaida. And remember, it was Al Qaida 
that tried to blow up their oil infrastructure; they killed their 
citizens. And His Majesty knows full well that that kind of terrorism 
cannot coexist with a peaceful society. When I have my discussions with 
him, I find there's a lot more common ground than not.

Saudi Arabia/Middle East Peace Process

    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. So there's no disagreement with the 
Palestinian issue with what----
    The President. I think His Majesty--look, the Arab peace initiative actually talks 
about, you know, Israel solving its problems with Lebanon and Syria and 
the Palestinians, and there will be universal recognition when that 
happens. And so to me that is a very positive statement. And that the 
idea of a Palestinian state as part--as far as being part of the 
solution to the overall problem is something I believe he agrees with. I 
don't want to put words in his mouth, because he's my dear friend.

Qatar

    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. In the recent years, there was an emergence 
of Qatar as a regional player in many of the countries in the Middle 
East. Do you see that played on the--kind of at the expense of 
traditional allies of the U.S., like Saudi Arabia and Egypt?
    The President. I think it's going to be very important for the 
initiatives instigated by Qatar to show results, for example, with 
Hamas. Now, Hamas--in my judgment, the violent wing of Hamas damages the 
prospects for a Palestinian state. Or with Hizballah--I believe that 
Hizballah is a very destabilizing influence, particularly when they 
resort to violence.
    So what I would look for, and do look for, and would hope the next 
President would look for is, okay, are these 
initiatives bearing fruit? We, of course, appreciate, you know, our 
basing agreement with Qatar, and we thank them very much for that. And 
we would hope that they would follow through to deliver the results for 
peace, which is what we all want, I hope.

[[Page 1429]]

Iraq

    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. We're going to move to Iraq. Recently, the 
U.S. and the Iraqi Government have signed the status of forces 
agreement. What do you think of it?
    The President. I think that the strategic framework agreement and 
the status of forces agreement is a sign that the Iraqi democracy is 
emerging and is healthy. There was a lot of debate on the SFA and SOFA, 
and there were people that were--you know, a lot of people were saying, 
well, this will be bad for Iraq, and others say this will be good for 
Iraq. And after the debate was over, it was ratified by the people's 
assembly, and I think that's a healthy sign. I also think it's very good 
to have an agreement in place that recognizes the sovereignty of Iraq 
and recognizes that the United States will be moving its forces out of 
cities and then eventually out of the country based upon success.

War on Terror

    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. In retrospect, would you think that this war 
could be averted?
    The President. We tried to avert it. I know people say, ``Oh, George 
Bush likes to use the military.'' That's the hardest thing for a 
President to do, is to put soldiers in harm's way, because I knew what 
would happen. And you know, that's of course manifested when I meet with 
mothers of fallen soldiers or wives or husbands. And it is incredibly 
sad, as I'm sure you can imagine, very emotional, to hug and to cry with 
families. And I've met with a lot of families--a lot--so I knew the 
consequences. I really did.
    And I was hoping that through diplomatic pressure that we would be 
able to resolve this issue peacefully. And I remember--you can't take 
this Iraq out of the post-9/11 context. We'd been attacked, and here's a 
man who I have said repeatedly, you know, was not directly involved in
9/11, but had used weapons of mass destruction and had supported terror 
and had paid the families of suicide bombers and was a sworn enemy of 
the United States and had invaded two countries and had ignored, you 
know, 17 or however many resolutions in the United Nations. He was a 
threat.
    But I did go to the United Nations, as you remember. Disclose, 
disarm, or face serious consequences, is what 1441 said. And I firmly 
believe the choice was Saddam Hussein's to make, and he made a fateful 
choice. Then the interesting point was, after he was removed, with a 
broad coalition of countries, what do we do? You know, do we pick a 
strong man and say, here's America's guy and put him in there? Or do we 
work so that the Iraqi citizens would be able to pick their own form of 
government and their own people? And that's what we chose to do, and 
it's been really hard.
    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Was it worth it?
    The President. Absolutely. I believe a Middle East with Saddam 
Hussein in power today would be different, much different than the one 
today. I think you'd see a man with a lot of oil wealth willing to use 
terrorist connections to try to compete, for example, with Hizballah.
    There could conceivably be a nuclear arms race taking place, while 
even though Saddam Hussein did not have nuclear weapons, it is certain, 
at least to the experts, that he still had the capacity to make nuclear 
weapons. And there would be nothing more destabilizing for the Middle 
East than to see Iran trying to develop a nuclear weapon and Iraq trying 
to develop a nuclear weapon.
    So I think the Middle East is a much better place without Saddam 
Hussein in power, and the sacrifices by both the Iraqi people and the 
coalition forces to achieve where we are today.

Iran

    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. But some say, sir, that the removal of Saddam 
Hussein has

[[Page 1430]]

bolstered Iran and make emergent as a regional superpower.
    The President. I disagree completely with that. I think the 
emergence of a democratic and stable Iraq on Iran's border is in the--
will help more likely keep the peace vis-a-vis Iran in the Middle East.
    Secondly, what has changed with Iran is universal recognition about 
the dangers of Iran having a--the capacity to make a nuclear weapon. And 
therefore, one of the objectives of my administration is to create an 
international coalition all saying the same thing, which is, you have 
defied the IAEA, therefore, you cannot be trusted to say that you're 
only enriching for civilian nuclear power; therefore, stop your process, 
verify they stopped their enrichment process; otherwise, there will 
continue to be international sanctions.

Iran-U.S. Relations

    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. The Iranian--recently your administration has 
been involved diplomatically with the Iranians. Do you think that 
actually you can bring them to the international fold by engaging them 
diplomatically?
    The President. We're trying to--we've offered them a way forward; 
it's verifiably suspend your enrichment. And we will be at the table 
with other nations.
    And so, well, we discussed Iraq with Iran in a regional context. But 
we have said there is--if you want to have diplomatic relations and 
discussions with the United States, verifiably suspend your enrichment 
program. Our objective is to stop their gain of knowledge that would 
enable them to build a nuclear weapon, because having a nuclear weapon 
would be incredibly destabilizing to the region.
    And so there is a way forward for them to have diplomacy. But it's 
their choice, and thus far, they have not chosen to do it. And I regret 
that our relations are with Iran--are this way, because I have great 
respect for the Iranian people and the Iranian history. And I know that 
they can have a better future with the rest of the world, if their 
leadership were to abandon its desire to learn how to build a nuclear 
weapon.

Syria

    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. I have a few questions about just Syria and 
Lebanon, but my time is over.
    The President. Well, thank you for your--you're a beautiful 
interviewer.
    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Thank you, sir. So can I go ahead?
    The President. Quickly. And then I really do have to go.
    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Sure, absolutely. I wanted to talk about 
Syria. Basically, the U.S. attacked Syria. But do you see----
    The President. The U.S.----
    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. ----attacked Syria recently. There was a 
target inside Syria that was attacked by----
    The President. Allegedly, yes.
    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Allegedly. But do you see this kind of 
tension will succeed soon, or do you see the U.S. diplomatically engaged 
in Syria?
    The President. First of all, we discussed no operations. Secondly, 
we have engaged Syria early in my administration with Secretary Colin 
Powell and others. And our message was, if 
you'd like to have better relations with us, stop housing Hamas, violent 
Hamas, stop destabilizing the democracy of Lebanon, stop facilitating 
the flow of terrorists into Iraq, be a constructive neighbor to 
countries, and we can have better relations. And they have, thus far, 
chosen to do that. Again, there is a way forward.
    But my worry about just sitting down with people and hoping that 
they end up behaving differently is that oftentimes it reinforces 
behavior that is not in our interests. And so I believe in conditional 
diplomacy. Now, there is a lot of multilateral diplomacy going on out of 
this administration. But in this case, just like Iran, we will have 
diplomatic relations if you choose,

[[Page 1431]]

but there's got to be behavioral change in order to justify it.

Lebanon

    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. And can you stabilize Lebanon?
    The President. I've been trying to--one of the great successes has 
been to get 30,000 or so Syrian troops out of Lebanon. I think one of 
the real keys to peace in the Middle East is Lebanon. And Lebanon is a 
democracy. I've met their President recently 
here in the Oval Office, which--had a very a good discussion. I've been 
very impressed by Prime Minister Siniora's 
courage and boldness. We want to help Lebanon have an armed forces that 
are effective, so that they can protect their people. And we have been 
working very hard for 7 years to free Lebanon as much as possible from 
foreign interference, so that its democracy can grow and mature and be a 
stable contributor to the region.

President's Legacy in the Middle East

    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. How would you like the people in the Middle 
East to remember you?
    The President. I would hope they would remember me as George W. 
Bush, as a man who respects their religion, respects human rights and 
human dignity, and prays for peace.
    Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Thank you very much. Thank you for your time. 
Thank you.

Note: The interview began taping at 1 p.m. in the Oval Office and 
continued on the Colonnade and in the Map Room at the White House, for 
later broadcast. In his remarks, the President referred to King Abdallah 
bin Abd al-Aziz Al Saud of Saudi Arabia; President Mahmoud Abbas and 
Prime Minister Salam Fayyad of the Palestinian Authority; Prime Minister 
Ehud Olmert of Israel; Lt. Gen. Keith W. Dayton, USA, U.S. Security 
Coordinator for Israel and the Palestinian Authority; Gen. James L. 
Jones, Jr., USMC (Ret.), Special Envoy for Middle East Security; former 
Prime Minister Tony Blair of the United Kingdom, Quartet Representative 
in the Middle East; former Secretary of State Colin L. Powell; and 
President Michel Sleiman and Prime Minister Fuad Siniora of Lebanon. The 
transcript was released by the Office of the Press Secretary on December 
7. A portion of this interview could not be verified because the tape 
was incomplete.