    [Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: George W. Bush (2008, Book II)]
    [December 18, 2008]
    [Pages 1492-1499]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]

    Interview With Steve Scully of C-SPAN
    December 18, 2008

    The Presidency

        Mr. Scully. Mr. President, as we speak to you in the Oval Office,
    you're really one of only two individuals that can view the Presidency
    through your dad's eyes and your own. What has surprised you about this
    job?
        The President. Well, first of all, being the son of the President is
    much harder than being the President. I agonized for my dad. When they would say things about him that I
    didn't think were fair, I agonized, because I love him so much. And I
    sometimes didn't react so well. I mean I would get angry at whoever said
    it and, you know; anyway, I was frustrated.
        The President is a much different role, and therefore, I mean, I
    understand it comes with the job when people say things about you. And
    so we've got kind of a role reversal. My dad agonizes when he reads stuff about me. So I found that
    being President is actually easier than being the son of the President
    in many ways.

    2000 Presidential Election

        Mr. Scully. You took the job with a Florida recount, a shortened
    transition period, and as you reflect on that time 8 years ago, were you
    in any way at a disadvantage in taking over this office?
        The President. That's an interesting question. I do think it--the
    Florida recount set kind of an ugly mood amongst some in the electorate.
    In other words, the election was--in their minds, was in doubt. That
    made it harder to come as a--to unify the country after the election.
        In terms of the transition, we had--I had a lot of experienced
    people that were ready to hit the ground. And they did a remarkable job
    of getting us ready to assume office when we did.

    Presidents Meeting

        Mr. Scully. You announced yesterday that the former Presidents will
    meet with the incoming President----
        The President. Right.
        Mr. Scully. ----here at White House. Has that ever happened before?
        The President. I don't think so. And this is an idea that President-
    elect Obama suggested here in the Oval Office
    when he came to visit me. And I'm going to follow up on it. I'll be the
    host, and I'm looking forward to it. It's going to be an interesting
    lunch.
        Mr. Scully. What will you talk about?
        The President. I don't know. I'm sure he's
    going to ask us all questions, I would guess; if not, we'll just share
    war stories.

    President's Farewell Address

        Mr. Scully. Will you deliver a farewell address in this office?
        The President. Yes, I'm thinking about it. I'm thinking about it. A
    lot of Presidents have, and I'm giving it serious thought. I don't want
    it to be, you know, kind of a real emotional goodbye. If I give it, it's
    going to be trying to leave behind some lessons learned.
        Mr. Scully. Well, let me share with you what two former Presidents
    have said.
        The President. Good.
        Mr. Scully. First, Dwight Eisenhower in 1961 said: ``Crises will
    continue; [we'll face them]. In meeting them, whether foreign or
    domestic, great or small, there is a recurring temptation to feel that
    some spectacular [or] costly action could become the miraculous solution
    to all current difficulties.''
        The President. Right.
        Mr. Scully. And then he talked about the industrial-military
    complex.
        The President. Right. That was an interesting observation. And
    obviously, each

    [[Page 1493]]

    farewell address is going to be tailored to the circumstances under
    which the President had to make decisions.
        And I suspect if I do one, and I really haven't figured it out yet,
    but I have talked to a speechwriter about--should I decide to do it,
    what would we say? And one thing, of course, is going to be we have to
    be vigilant and can't let our guard down, because a terrorist threat
    still exists.
        Mr. Scully. Ronald Reagan had said, ``Are we doing a good enough job
    teaching our children what America is and what she represents in the
    long history of the world?'' In his statement of saying there's a great
    tradition of Presidential warnings as they leave the White House.
        The President. Interesting. I haven't really viewed the farewell
    address in terms of Presidential warnings, but I can--it makes sense to
    say, ``I've learned this, and I wish my successor all the best, and
    America needs to be on the lookout.''
        One option for me is to talk about isolationism and protectionism,
    and that it's very important for us to resist those ``isms.'' The world
    needs our presence. The people dying of AIDS on the continent of Africa
    need a robust response by the United States to save lives. We need
    voices calling upon coalition members to stay in the fight against the
    terrorists. And protectionism is rearing its ugly head; witness the fact
    that we had trouble getting good free trade agreements through the
    Congress with Panama and Colombia and South Korea.
        And so maybe that's what I'll warn about as well. Thank you for
    giving me some ideas.

    Use of Former Presidents

        Mr. Scully. How should we use former Presidents? How do you want to
    be used, in what capacity, as you leave this office?
        The President. Yes. It's an interesting question. One thing I don't
    want to do is stay on the stage. The spotlight needs to shift to
    President-elect Obama, and it needs to stay on
    President-elect Obama, because he's the President. And therefore, I
    won't try to get it to shift to me. And I'll be very respectful of him
    during his Presidency.
        I think each President is going to have to chart his own way. I'm
    going to build a policy institute at Southern Methodist to talk about,
    for example, the ``isms''--isolationism and protectionism, and the need
    to resist them--or the transformative power of freedom.
        President-elect Obama, I am confident, will
    call upon Presidents to take on a mission. I will be happy to do it,
    particularly if I agree with the mission. For example, I asked Dad and President Clinton to help on the tsunamis. But, you know, each role will be
    defined according to the comfort level of the ex-President.

    George W. Bush Presidential Library

        Mr. Scully. Are there some things that you want in your library?
        The President. Well, I do want to have a policy center. You mean in
    terms of how it's going to function?
        Mr. Scully. [Inaudible]--and the facility, and how it's going to
    work.
        The President. There will be the classic library, you know, rotating
    exhibitions to keep it relevant so people will be interested in it. And
    of course, there will be archives. They tell me that we moved 25,000
    boxes full of files and memos, and I think they said, like, 30 million
    e-mails--or 300 million e-mails. I mean, a huge number of e-mails; none
    of which are mine, by the way, since I haven't been e-mailing.
        And there will be a policy center. And this is a place of debate,
    discussion, a place to herald freedom, a place to continue some of the
    initiatives that we've started, like the malaria initiative on the
    continent of Africa, or PEPFAR. And Laura is going to be wanting to be
    involved with women's movements around the world, the freedom movement
    in Burma. And that--the policy center and the museum are going to take a
    lot of time.

    [[Page 1494]]

    President's Second Term

        Mr. Scully. You've had a tough couple of years. Most second
    Presidents have had tough second terms. Why is that?
        The President. Well, in my case, I was a wartime President, and war
    is very exhausting. War is hard for a country. And you know, I made the
    decision that we were going to win. And there has been some critical
    moments where I guess I could have taken the popular way out and
    retreated, like in 2006, but instead went with 30,000 more troops,
    because I felt strongly that defeat in Iraq would be terrible for the
    security of the country, it would be terrible for the morale of the
    military, and it would be really hard for me, the Commander in Chief, to
    face a mother who lost a son in combat.
        The other part of my Presidency that's been hard is we've had, you
    know, huge economic turmoil recently. And you know, I'm just so sorry
    it's happening. But it is happening, and therefore, I have made the
    decision not to let there be a massive collapse, which would hurt the
    average guy in the street. And what's hard about this one is, a hard-
    working taxpayer is making his mortgage, wonders why the President is
    using his money to save firms that got a little over--got a little
    excessive in their desire to make money. And I understand that
    complaint. And my answer, of course, is, is that if I thought they could
    fail without causing the average guy real economic hardship, I'd have
    let them.
        Anyway, so it has been a--it's been an interesting Presidency from
    that perspective.

    U.S. Auto Industry

        Mr. Scully. One issue that continues to be in the news: the auto
    industry.
        The President. Yes.
        Mr. Scully. Are you looking for concessions from the unions in order
    to try to figure out how this is all going to come together?
        The President. Yes, you see, there's two principles that's driving
    me on this. One is, a disorderly bankruptcy could be very destabilizing
    for what is now a fragile financial market. In other words, I am
    concerned about a shock to the system. I'm also concerned about putting
    good money after bad. And therefore, it's going to be very important
    that whatever we do, that there be a plan that the autos--that would be
    management as well as dealers as well as labor--show how they could be
    viable for the future.
        You know, this is just a very difficult economic time for the
    country. And I am concerned about people's 401(k)s declining. I'm
    concerned about joblessness. But I made the decision that my team and
    myself will not let the economy go down.

    Federal Government

        Mr. Scully. When you took office, did you expect to have the biggest
    expansion of the Federal Government under your watch?
        The President. I knew the mandatory spending--that would be Social
    Security and Medicare--were going to rise substantially because baby
    boomers like me were getting ready to retire. I didn't realize we'd be
    in war and--because, you know, the attacks of September the 11th came
    out of nowhere. But once we were in war, I darn sure was going to make
    our troops--make sure our troops had what they need to succeed. And most
    of the growth in nonentitlement spending came on the military and
    homeland side. And you bet I was going to fund the troops, and you bet
    we're going to make sure the homeland is protected.

    Presidential Vetoes

        Mr. Scully. Bill Clinton and Ronald Reagan in their 8 years used the
    veto pen three or four or five times as often as you have.
        The President. Yes.

    [[Page 1495]]

        Mr. Scully. You've used it about a dozen times.
        The President. Right.
        Mr. Scully. Why?
        The President. Well, primarily because I was working with people in
    my own party. In other words, for the first 4 years of my Presidency--
    see, up to '06, we ran the Congress, except in the beginning. And so
    therefore, I would sit down with colleagues--not ``colleagues,'' but
    party members and friends, and we'd work out our issues. And we got a
    lot done that I was satisfied with. Toward the end I had to veto because
    I didn't agree with what Congress was doing.
        And one area where it was very difficult for me was on the budget.
    See, you sit here in the Oval Office, and we'd agree with the--I'd agree
    with the Speaker and the leader of the Senate on the size of the pie.
    ``Here's what we need to spend, and here's this much for military and
    this much for education, this much for health.'' We all agreed to that.
    The problem was the slices of the pie got to be a problem because of
    earmarks. But I didn't have the line-item veto. And therefore, once you
    agree to the size of the pie, you're pretty well stuck with what's in
    the pie until the President gets the line-item veto.

    Checks and Balances in Government

        Mr. Scully. In terms of the institutions, do you think that the
    checks and balance work between this end of Pennsylvania Avenue and the
    other end?
        The President. Oh, absolutely, yes. I mean--and there's constant
    back and forth between the executive branch and the legislative branch,
    and of course, the judiciary weighs in a lot. But yes, we got a great
    system.

    U.S. Supreme Court

        Mr. Scully. How often, if at all, do you talk to the Supreme Court
    Justices?
        The President. Rarely. Rarely. You know, Laura and I hosted a dinner for the Justices and their
    spouses and--but yes, I may see them socially or, you know, at some of
    these banquets that you go to where the comedian makes fun of the
    President, then the President makes fun of himself, and everybody has a
    jolly time, except the President. But yes, the Justices will be at some
    of these dinners, and I'll just chitchat with them, but never talk
    policy, of course, with them.

    Media Coverage of the President

        Mr. Scully. Media, another institution here.
        The President. Yes.
        Mr. Scully. A lot of cable talk shows, a lot of radio programs
    talking about you. First of all, do you watch the programs?
        The President. No.
        Mr. Scully. And have the media treated you fairly?
        The President. You know, it's hard to tell. I mean, I will tell you,
    my relationship with the media is--with the individuals in the media has
    been very good. And that's all I can expect. Of course, I read what's
    written, and I, a lot of times, don't like what's written. Then I
    realize they may not like what I'm saying. But I have no complaints. In
    other words, I'm not one of these guys who'll say, ``Oh, man, everybody
    misunderstood me because of the media.'' I'm a little disappointed at
    some of the platforms that encouraged harsh rhetoric.
        Mr. Scully. Such as?
        The President. ``Bush is a liar.'' And there's a--it seems like to
    me that there's such competition for air space that some people feel
    like if they can yell louder, with harsher rhetoric, then they'll get
    noticed.
        And the tone hasn't been good in Washington, and I've been
    disappointed in that, and I bear some of the blame for that.

    Bipartisan Cooperation

        Mr. Scully. Well, in fact, you said on December 14, 2000: ``I'm
    optimistic that we can change the tone in Washington. I believe things
    happen for a reason, and

    [[Page 1496]]

    I hope the long wait of the last 5 weeks will heighten a desire to move
    beyond the bitterness and the partisanship.''
        The President. Yes, yes. That was a hopeful person saying that. And
    you know, there were some----
        Mr. Scully. Are you less hopeful?
        The President. Am I less hopeful now? Well, it didn't work out the
    way I was hoping it to--hoping it would. In other words, the tone
    didn't--it changed some initially. Remember, we got No Child Left Behind
    done; we got some--we worked together on PEPFAR. I mean, there were some
    bipartisan accomplishments. But the rhetoric got very tough. I mean,
    this is a--some people here in this town use the politics of personal
    destruction to advance their agenda. I don't want to sound self-serving,
    but I haven't, and I don't think a President should.
        But no, I was hoping for a better tone, and it didn't happen.

    President-Elect Barack Obama

        Mr. Scully. So what would you tell President-elect Obama? He'll have
    a Democrat in the House and the Senate, like you did in 2001, and he's
    talked about trying to unite the country again.
        The President. I wish him all the best. I mean, I really do. I hope
    he succeeds. He may be in a position--maybe he won't have to deal with
    quite as contentious as issues as I did, or maybe he will, who knows. He
    came in with a strong vote, and he's got good majorities in the House
    and Senate, and maybe he'll get some things done.

    President's Faith

        Mr. Scully. You've talked about your faith. In those quiet moments
    of prayer, do you want to share what you're thinking about, what you're
    praying for?
        The President. Probably not, but I can tell you the effects of
    prayer have made this a very--my life is joyous, believe it or not; some
    days happy, some days not happy, every day joyous.
        I have been comforted. I pray for a lot of things. I mean, I pray
    for my--I pray for strength, and I pray for comfort; I pray for friends;
    I pray for my family's safety. My relationship with the Almighty is a
    very personal relationship, as is yours.

    The Presidency

        Mr. Scully. You are 8 years older. Do you think this job has aged
    you?
        The President. I don't know, what do you think? I mean, I think I'm
    wiser, and that I've seen a lot more. I know I'm more knowledgeable. My
    principles haven't changed. But you tell me, has it aged me? I can't--
    I'm not one of these guys that kind of, you know----

    President's Health

        Mr. Scully. You're biking on weekends.
        The President. Biking pretty good.
        Mr. Scully. You're physically fit.
        The President. Yes, I'm physically fit.
        Mr. Scully. Would you say you're among the healthiest Presidents to
    serve in this job?
        The President. Would I say that? I would think so; I don't know.
        Mr. Scully. So how do you do it?
        The President. I just work out and stay--I'm a disciplined person. I
    work out every day except for one day, and I make sure my scheduler
    knows this. Early on in the Presidency I said, ``I want time to work
    out, because I think it's--I know part of being a--doing this job is to
    be a disciplined person.'' Like, I start meetings on time; I end them on
    time.
        I have got a routine that obviously varies depending on the moment,
    but a routine that's pretty well set. You know, I get here early in the
    morning and meet with the Chief of Staff
    and the National Security Adviser, then
    meet with the intelligence people. And pretty much that way throughout
    my Presidency. And the reason why

    [[Page 1497]]

    is, is that I think it's important for a President to be predictable
    among the people with whom he works, so that there's not a sloppiness in
    the organization.
        And anybody can find time to exercise if they put their mind to it.

    Importance of Discipline

        Mr. Scully. What made you disciplined, though? What in your life
    created the schedule that you now carry out?
        The President. You know, it's an interesting question. I don't
    really know. I was undisciplined at times. I may have always been
    slightly disciplined. But you know, I used to drink too much, which is a
    sign of being undisciplined. And it took discipline to quit and maybe a
    little help from a higher authority. But I wasn't a knee-walking drunk,
    but I was--you know, I was drinking, and alcohol was beginning to
    compete for my affections. And so I quit. One night I had too much to
    drink in Colorado Springs, Colorado, and haven't had a drink since.
        So that's discipline as well. I don't know where it comes from,
    maybe my mom and dad. I haven't sat around and tried to figure it out; I
    can just tell you it's true.

    President's Reading Habits

        Mr. Scully. How much time do you spend reading?
        The President. A lot. Yes, I'm a avid reader. I don't really watch a
    lot of TV, in all due respect. Of course, if I did, I'd be watching you.
    But I read a lot. I read a lot on airplanes; I read a lot upstairs at
    the White House; I read on the exercise bicycle.
        Mr. Scully. What do you take away from books? I mean, how do you
    translate what you read into how you make decisions or how you go about
    your business?
        The President. Well, sometimes books are just to escape, like
    mysteries, and it's just a chance to get your mind off the moment.
    Sometimes I read books to--a lot of history books, and I can take
    lessons away from the books, like Abraham Lincoln. I just finished a
    James McPherson book on Abraham Lincoln
    and his relationship with his generals, which is an interesting topic
    for a Commander in Chief. One of the lessons of Abraham Lincoln that all
    Presidents ought to understand, particularly at times of war, is that
    the President must pay attention to the troops. And Lincoln went out of
    his way to be with the sergeants and the enlisted personnel as well as
    the generals. And he--you know, he visited the wounded a lot, and he
    visited with widows a lot.
        And it's a good lesson for any President. And the lesson is, pay
    attention to your military and work with your military and show your
    military that you care for them. And you go to a hospital and see these
    wounded kids and word gets out all across the--you know, all across the
    system, where--and I've met with a lot of the families of the fallen,
    which is my duty, but I think the troops appreciate that, that the
    President cares enough about their comrades' families that he would meet
    with them. And yes, it's an interesting experience to do that. The
    comforter in chief is the person who usually gets comforted.

    President Abraham Lincoln

        Mr. Scully. You have had a number of events here as we begin to
    commemorate the 200th anniversary of Abraham Lincoln's bicentennial.
        The President. Yes.
        Mr. Scully. His picture is here, obviously, his bust in this office.
    That's one example about the Lincoln Presidency. But what else in the 17
    or 18 books that you've read on Lincoln do you take away from what he
    meant for this office and the country?
        The President. Well, he spoke with moral clarity on certain truths.
    And one basic truth was, all men are created equal under God; 1864, he
    could have easily have said, well, maybe not all of us are created
    equal. But Lincoln spoke with certainty. And I think Presidents need to
    do that, need to

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    speak moral truth, have a set of principles that are inviolate.
        Self-pity is a horrible trait, and I'm confident all Presidents have
    been--have thought about saying, ``Oh, why me? Why do I have to carry
    this burden?'' And first of all, I don't believe it is a burden to be
    President. I don't believe there's--it's not a burden to deal with
    problems. But Lincoln keeps things in perspective. If you think you got
    a lousy time, think about what Abraham Lincoln went through. I mean, it
    was a tough time for Lincoln: 600,000 people died; he lost his son
    upstairs--Willie died in the White House; his wife was not happy. And
    yet he was a man who stuck to principles and stayed strong and died not
    having any earthly idea of where his standing would be in history.

    President's Staff

        Mr. Scully. There have been a couple of kiss-and-tell books about
    your own Presidency.
        The President. Yes.
        Mr. Scully. My question is, whether it's Scott McClellan or Paul
    O'Neill or others, does that affect the way a President deals with his
    Cabinet, his staff, and does that worry you?
        The President. It's interesting you said that. That's a very
    interesting question, because I had staff members walk up to me and say,
    ``How can you trust me?'' And the answer is, I just do. I just do. Trust
    is a very important part of the White House. And the examples you just
    cited are very rare, very rare. Every President is going to have to deal
    with that. And it's essential that the President assure the people--and
    when these books come out, assure the people here that--``I trust you a
    lot.'' And I think my words calmed some of the folks I work with down,
    that they didn't feel alienated.
        That's a fascinating question. First person who's asked me that.

    The Oval Office

        Mr. Scully. In our remaining minute, let me ask you about this
    office.
        The President. Sure.
        Mr. Scully. The picture behind you----
        The President. That's called, ``A Charge To Keep.'' It's based upon
    a Methodist hymn called ``A Charge To Keep I Have,'' that was sung when
    I was first inaugurated Governor of Texas. And my friend O'Neil, Joe I. O'Neil, from Midland, Texas, said, ``I
    got a painting based upon that hymn. Would you like to use it?'' And I
    looked at it and said, absolutely. It's by W.H.D. Koerner.
        The thing about O'Neil that's
    important is he introduced me and Laura in his
    backyard. He and Jan had a little barbeque out
    there, and there was two other guests, me and Laura. And about 3 months
    later, we were married.
        The importance of that painting is that it's obviously a religious
    painting. And I tell people the President should never promote a
    religion. But the President always ought to jealously guard and defend
    the right for anybody to worship or not worship, that we're all equal,
    if we're Hindu, Jew, Muslim. It doesn't matter. It just doesn't matter.
    The greatness about America is you can choose and worship the way you
    want to worship.

    Resolute Desk

        Mr. Scully. And this desk?
        The President. Called the Resolute. I entertain people here quite a
    bit. Recently, youngsters have come in and said, ``Hey, where's the
    hidden drawer?'' I said, ``What are you talking about?'' Well, it turns
    out the Resolute is famous in ``National Treasure,'' which I have not
    seen yet. But it's even more famous because Presidents have used it.
    Roosevelt put the door on there. Out the door John-John Kennedy poked
    his head in the most famous Oval Office photo. And President Reagan put
    the bottom there to lift it up.

    [[Page 1499]]

        The desk was given to us by Queen Victoria. The wood is from a ship
    called the Resolute, HMS Resolute, that we rescued in the Arctic.
        And here's the thing that the desk reminds me of on a regular basis,
    that the institution of the Presidency is more important than the
    President, that the office is more important than the individual. And
    that's important, because whoever is in here will have strengths and
    weaknesses. And so we will come and go, but because of the institution
    of stability, the ship of state will sail on. And the job is to make
    tough calls, and I've had to make some. But the job is also to honor the
    office.

    President's Last Day in Office

        Mr. Scully. So finally, you will leave this office the morning of
    January 20.
        The President. That's right.
        Q. What will you be thinking?
        The President. I'll be wishing--you know, that's an interesting
    question. First of all, I'll be wishing President-elect Obama all the best--genuinely be wishing him all the best.
    And I will have said our final farewells. It turns out that the farewell
    party for the President stretches over about 45 days, it seems like. I
    mean, everything is a ``last''--last this, last Christmas turkey pardon,
    last this--not Christmas turkey, Thanksgiving turkey pardon, I mean----

    Presidential Transition

        Mr. Scully. Is it too long? Is the transition too long?
        The President. No, no, no. Actually, I think it's going to be good
    for me. I'm kind of an emotional guy anyway. I would hate to have the
    next-to-last and last day of the Presidency be one giant hug fest. But
    we will have packed up, and we will have said goodbye to the folks that
    we have lived with for 8 years. And it will be emotional in that sense.
    But I anticipate with great interest watching an historic moment: the
    swearing in of the 44th President, who happens to be an African American
    male. And that's a big deal for America. And I will have a front row
    seat.
        Mr. Scully. Mr. President, thank you for your time.
        The President. Yes, sir.

    Note: The interview was taped at 12:52 p.m. in Oval Office at the White
    House for later broadcast. In his remarks, the President referred to
    former White House Press Secretary Scott B. McClellan; and former
    Secretary of the Treasury Paul O'Neill.