    [Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: George W. Bush (2008, Book II)]
    [December 5, 2008]
    [Pages 1424-1431]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]

    Interview With Nadia Bilbassy Charters of MBC TV
    December 5, 2008

    The Oval Office

        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Mr. President, nice to see you always.
        The President. Welcome, welcome.
        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Thank you very much. Thank you, sir.
        The President. We are glad you're here.
        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Thank you very much.
        The President. Come on in to the Oval Office.
        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. We are grateful for this. Thank you. This is
    great.
        The President. It's an interesting history here, and I kind of think
    one thing that your viewers might be interested in knowing is that the
    first decision I ever made as President--but I was actually President-
    elect--was, what color rug do you want? And one of the important things
    is to surround yourself with people who you can trust and delegate. In
    this case, I delegated the rug design to Laura,
    my wife.
        But I told her, I said, I want the rug to have a message, and that
    is ``optimistic guy goes to work here.'' And so, as you can see, the rug
    really lights up the room. And I am optimistic about the future of the
    Middle East.

    Freedom Agenda/Middle East

        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Well, that's a great note, sir. You've been
    here 8 years. A few weeks and you're going to be leaving.
        The President. I'm going home.
        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. You sat on this desk for 8 years, and you
    took many decisions regarding our region. You launched the greater
    Middle East initiative that you want to democratize, reform the Middle
    East. In retrospect, do you think that vision was realized? Would you do
    anything differently?
        The President. Well, I think it began--it's the beginning of a very
    difficult vision to implement. But I felt it was necessary for a couple
    of important reasons. One, I believe we're in an ideological struggle
    against people who want to achieve their ideological vision through the
    use of violence and murder. And I believe it is essential that you have
    an alternative available for people; the one I happen to believe in is
    based upon liberty. I don't think this

    [[Page 1425]]

    is an American vision, see. And I tell people this, that I do believe
    there is a universal God, and a gift of that Almighty to all of us,
    whether we be Methodists or Muslims or nothing, is freedom. And so
    freedom is a great alternative.
        But I also believe there's a moral calling. If you believe there's
    an Almighty God, and a gift of that Almighty to everybody is freedom,
    then I think you have to--if you can do something about it, that you
    have to act on that, so that moms can grow up in a society that is
    hopeful for their children, you know, that their children are--can
    realize dreams.
        And to me the best type of society to do that is freedom. But it's
    very hard; it's difficult. And so you have to plant a seed, and you have
    to cultivate the seed, and eventually the crops will bloom. And we're
    beginning to see the crops beginning to bloom in parts of the Middle
    East.

    War on Terror

        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Sir, some people say that the war on terror
    is a war on Islam.
        The President. Yes.
        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Yet you went to the first mosque after 9/11,
    and you spoke there. How do you convince people in the Middle East that
    George Bush is not fighting a war against Islam?
        The President. No, I know, and it troubles my soul, because I
    believe we're all God's children. And I hear people say, ``George Bush
    doesn't like Muslims, he wants to fight Muslims.'' And first, I thank
    you for giving me the chance to, hopefully, set the record straight. But
    I am objecting to anybody who murders innocent people to achieve their
    objectives. I don't think people who murder in the name of religion are
    truly religious people. And secondly, I would hope that people would
    know that when we try to use some of our influence to help on education
    programs, for example, or we welcome students, Saudi students, to the
    United States to study here, that it's a sign of respect and a sign of
    my desire to reach out to all people regardless of their religion.

    Reflections on the President's Time in Office

        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Absolutely. I wanted also to ask you about,
    in the last 8 years, if you look back, would you do things differently?
    Would you have done things that you probably thought for a second--for
    the second time, I would have done them a different way?
        The President. I'm sure there will be. I mean, there's been some
    disappointments.
        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Like what?
        The President. Well, like, Abu Ghraib was a terrible disappointment.
    And admittedly, I wasn't there on the site, but I was the Commander in
    Chief of a military where these disgraceful acts took place that sent
    the absolute wrong image about America and our military.
        You know, parts of Iraq, it's taken longer than I thought it would.
    On the other hand, I am pleased to see a multiethnic society begin to
    emerge. I talked to the leaders of Iraq yesterday and today and
    congratulated them on doing some hard work. And I love to hear their
    spirit in their voice.
        And so I'm confident history will say, ``Oh, Bush could have done it
    better here,'' or, ``Bush could have done it better there.'' But I think
    from the strategic point of view, I'm confident that the idea of moving
    liberty in the region, a two-state solution to help the Israeli-
    Palestinian issue, the liberation of Iraq, and the follow-up with the--
    to help the Iraqis realize their sovereignty--a strong push-back against
    Iran--I believe when people objectively analyze this administration,
    they'll say, ``Well, I see now what he was trying to do.''

    Middle East Peace Process

        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. I mean, the Arab peace initiative, it was a
    framework. Do you think that President-elect Obama

    [[Page 1426]]

    should use it in terms of achieving peace in the Middle East?
        The President. I definitely think it was a major breakthrough for
    then Crown Prince, now His Majesty, King Abdallah, to take the initiative and lay out the
    conditions for peace. And it is, I think, a useful foundation to help
    solve a longstanding problem. I do believe there will be a Palestinian
    state. I feel comfortable in saying that the decision--my decision to
    promote a Palestinian state, being the first President to do so, was the
    right thing for peace--right thing for peace for the Palestinians, right
    thing for peace for the Israelis. And His Majesty was very useful and
    very bold in laying out the Arab peace initiative.

    The Rose Garden

        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. We're going to talk about all this in details
    so----
        The President. Yes, come on, I'll show you the Rose Garden.
        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. ----let's walk and talk as we go down to the
    Map Room.
        The President. You've seen the Rose Garden before.
        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. I have, many times.
        The President. Many times. [Laughter]
        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Thank you, sir. It's beautiful.
        The President. It is a beautiful day.

    The Presidency

        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. What are you going to miss most about this
    place?
        The President. Well, you know, I'll miss a lot. I am--I've got such
    respect for our military, and I admire people in our military so very
    much. I'll miss being the Commander in Chief. But you know, the White
    House is full of incredibly gracious and kind people who work hard to
    make family life as normal as possible. And so I'll miss a lot of the
    people we work with here.

    Post-Presidency Plans

        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. And what's your plans?
        The President. Well, I'm going to move back to Texas.
        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. And what are you going to do there?
        The President. And I'm going to, you know, write a book, I think,
    about what it was like to be President and some of the hard decisions I
    had to make. I'm going to start a institute that will promote freedom.
    And this will be an interesting place, particularly in regards to the
    Middle East, because this will be a place where there will be a forum
    for people with different issues to come and discuss.
        You know, I would love to have, you know, Palestinians, such as the
    President or the Prime
    Minister, to come and describe to the Americans
    what it was like to be in that part of the world. Or you know, there's
    just a lot of really interesting opportunities for people to come and
    lecture and think and talk.
        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. And in your book, obviously, we're talking
    about foreign policy. Most of it happened in the Middle East--okay,
    we're off camera now. I hope the guy is okay.
        The President.  A lot of--yes. He fell into the Rose Garden.

    [At this point, there was a change in location, and the interview
    resumed as follows.]

    Middle East Peace Process/West Bank

        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Mr. President, thank you very much for this
    exclusive interview with us----
        The President. Thank you.
        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. ----and thank you very much for granting us,
    to MEBC, and to me, personally, on behalf of Arab media. I really do
    appreciate it; I'm very grateful.
        The President. Thank you. I've enjoyed working with you. You've been
    a very fair

    [[Page 1427]]

    journalist, and it's been a pleasure to have known you.
        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Thank you, sir. You are the first American
    President to call for the establishment of a Palestinian state. You had
    hoped that you would have this state realized when you leave office. Do
    you think that you could have done more? Do you think that you have
    thrown all of the weight of the U.S. behind this vision?
        The President. Absolutely. We threw all the muscle and all the
    weight of the United States behind the vision. I am--you know, I wish
    there would have been a clearly defined state by the time I left office.
    However, I do take comfort in a couple of things.
        One, the attitude toward a Palestinian state has shifted. I think
    there's universal recognition in the region that in order for there to
    be peace, there must be two states living side by side in peace.
    Secondly, I am pleased that Prime Minister Olmert and President Abbas, after Annapolis, have worked very hard to narrow the
    differences on a variety of issues. And they have; they've made
    substantial progress.
        Thirdly, I am pleased that there is the Arab peace plan, which is an
    essential part of creating the conditions for a Palestinian state to
    evolve. Fourthly, I'm grateful that at the Annapolis conference all Arab
    nations were represented, which is an important signal, because I
    learned a lesson in studying previous efforts for peace that there must
    be regional buy-in. In other words, the nations in the region must stand
    with the Palestinians, in particular, and say this is--we support you.
        And so--and fifthly, by the way, I am pleased with the progress
    being made to help the development of an infrastructure in the West
    Bank. Prime Minister Fayyad has asked for help.
    A lot of nations are helping, including the United States; we're helping
    with security measures. Generals Dayton and
    Jones have been very helpful. My friend Prime
    Minister Blair--former Prime Minister Blair, who
    was here the other night for dinner--and I talked about the economics
    that are beginning to take place in the region. In other words, a state
    can be defined on paper, but it also has to be defined in a civil
    society and a strong economy. And it's beginning to happen.

    Middle East Peace Process/Gaza Strip

        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. How do you see the Palestinian issue evolving
    in the next few years? I mean, Prime Minister Tony Blair said, actually,
    there's no peace without Gaza, and I guess that means Hamas as well. Do
    you share that vision?
        The President. I share the vision that the only way there's going to
    be peace is where those who assume that violence is necessary to achieve
    peace cannot be a part of the process. In other words, people have to
    renounce violence in order to have peace. It's contradictory to say, I
    am going to use violence to achieve my objectives, and oh, by the way,
    I'm for peace.
        And so ultimately, Gaza has got to be--look, Gaza has to be a part
    of a Palestinian state, and the Palestinian state has to be contiguous
    territory; it cannot look like Swiss cheese. And it's got to be a state
    in which the sovereignty of the Palestinian people is--reigns supreme.

    Middle East Peace Process/Palestinian State

        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. So you're confident it's going to emerge?
        The President. I am. I really am. There will be fits and starts. I
    mean, if this were a straight line between vision and reality, it would
    have happened. But there's a lot of complicating factors. Obviously, the
    terrorists create complicating factors. Secondly, politics creates
    complicating factors, both within the Palestinians, as well as the
    Israelis, as we have seen.
        But nevertheless, the foundation is there. People--if you give
    people a choice, ultimately give them a choice between two states side
    by side in peace or this unresolved dispute, what would they choose?

    [[Page 1428]]

    They would choose peace. And this will happen.

    Middle East Peace Process

        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. What will President-elect Obama pick up from
    where you left?
        The President. Well, I think we've left it in good shape. We've left
    it with the vision intact. In other words, a lot of people now share the
    vision of two states. As I say, there's been progress between the
    Israeli Prime Minister and the Palestinian
    President toward what a state
    should look like. I think the Israelis are getting--be more comfortable
    with the notion that a state won't create less security for them, but
    more security for them. And the Arab world, because of the Arab
    initiative as well as the Annapolis conference, are showing more and
    more willingness to be constructive partners in getting peace.

    Saudi Arabia-U.S. Relations

        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. The U.S. and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia have
    a close strategic relationship. You personally have a very good working
    relationship with King Abdallah. Yet you don't see eye to eye on many
    issues. How did you resolve that?
        The President. I think we do. I think we got--I think we agree more
    than we disagree. First of all, I hold His Majesty in high respect. I appreciate, for example,
    the religious dialogue that he instigated, and I was honored to be
    invited to go to New York. I thought that was a very smart way to help
    promote understanding, and understanding eventually leads to peace.
        He is a man who
    understands that terrorists can destroy his own society. And so I--I
    don't know if the world understands this or not, but Saudi Arabia has
    been very firm in dealing with Al Qaida. And remember, it was Al Qaida
    that tried to blow up their oil infrastructure; they killed their
    citizens. And His Majesty knows full well that that kind of terrorism
    cannot coexist with a peaceful society. When I have my discussions with
    him, I find there's a lot more common ground than not.

    Saudi Arabia/Middle East Peace Process

        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. So there's no disagreement with the
    Palestinian issue with what----
        The President. I think His Majesty--look, the Arab peace initiative actually talks
    about, you know, Israel solving its problems with Lebanon and Syria and
    the Palestinians, and there will be universal recognition when that
    happens. And so to me that is a very positive statement. And that the
    idea of a Palestinian state as part--as far as being part of the
    solution to the overall problem is something I believe he agrees with. I
    don't want to put words in his mouth, because he's my dear friend.

    Qatar

        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. In the recent years, there was an emergence
    of Qatar as a regional player in many of the countries in the Middle
    East. Do you see that played on the--kind of at the expense of
    traditional allies of the U.S., like Saudi Arabia and Egypt?
        The President. I think it's going to be very important for the
    initiatives instigated by Qatar to show results, for example, with
    Hamas. Now, Hamas--in my judgment, the violent wing of Hamas damages the
    prospects for a Palestinian state. Or with Hizballah--I believe that
    Hizballah is a very destabilizing influence, particularly when they
    resort to violence.
        So what I would look for, and do look for, and would hope the next
    President would look for is, okay, are these
    initiatives bearing fruit? We, of course, appreciate, you know, our
    basing agreement with Qatar, and we thank them very much for that. And
    we would hope that they would follow through to deliver the results for
    peace, which is what we all want, I hope.

    [[Page 1429]]

    Iraq

        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. We're going to move to Iraq. Recently, the
    U.S. and the Iraqi Government have signed the status of forces
    agreement. What do you think of it?
        The President. I think that the strategic framework agreement and
    the status of forces agreement is a sign that the Iraqi democracy is
    emerging and is healthy. There was a lot of debate on the SFA and SOFA,
    and there were people that were--you know, a lot of people were saying,
    well, this will be bad for Iraq, and others say this will be good for
    Iraq. And after the debate was over, it was ratified by the people's
    assembly, and I think that's a healthy sign. I also think it's very good
    to have an agreement in place that recognizes the sovereignty of Iraq
    and recognizes that the United States will be moving its forces out of
    cities and then eventually out of the country based upon success.

    War on Terror

        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. In retrospect, would you think that this war
    could be averted?
        The President. We tried to avert it. I know people say, ``Oh, George
    Bush likes to use the military.'' That's the hardest thing for a
    President to do, is to put soldiers in harm's way, because I knew what
    would happen. And you know, that's of course manifested when I meet with
    mothers of fallen soldiers or wives or husbands. And it is incredibly
    sad, as I'm sure you can imagine, very emotional, to hug and to cry with
    families. And I've met with a lot of families--a lot--so I knew the
    consequences. I really did.
        And I was hoping that through diplomatic pressure that we would be
    able to resolve this issue peacefully. And I remember--you can't take
    this Iraq out of the post-9/11 context. We'd been attacked, and here's a
    man who I have said repeatedly, you know, was not directly involved in
    9/11, but had used weapons of mass destruction and had supported terror
    and had paid the families of suicide bombers and was a sworn enemy of
    the United States and had invaded two countries and had ignored, you
    know, 17 or however many resolutions in the United Nations. He was a
    threat.
        But I did go to the United Nations, as you remember. Disclose,
    disarm, or face serious consequences, is what 1441 said. And I firmly
    believe the choice was Saddam Hussein's to make, and he made a fateful
    choice. Then the interesting point was, after he was removed, with a
    broad coalition of countries, what do we do? You know, do we pick a
    strong man and say, here's America's guy and put him in there? Or do we
    work so that the Iraqi citizens would be able to pick their own form of
    government and their own people? And that's what we chose to do, and
    it's been really hard.
        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Was it worth it?
        The President. Absolutely. I believe a Middle East with Saddam
    Hussein in power today would be different, much different than the one
    today. I think you'd see a man with a lot of oil wealth willing to use
    terrorist connections to try to compete, for example, with Hizballah.
        There could conceivably be a nuclear arms race taking place, while
    even though Saddam Hussein did not have nuclear weapons, it is certain,
    at least to the experts, that he still had the capacity to make nuclear
    weapons. And there would be nothing more destabilizing for the Middle
    East than to see Iran trying to develop a nuclear weapon and Iraq trying
    to develop a nuclear weapon.
        So I think the Middle East is a much better place without Saddam
    Hussein in power, and the sacrifices by both the Iraqi people and the
    coalition forces to achieve where we are today.

    Iran

        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. But some say, sir, that the removal of Saddam
    Hussein has

    [[Page 1430]]

    bolstered Iran and make emergent as a regional superpower.
        The President. I disagree completely with that. I think the
    emergence of a democratic and stable Iraq on Iran's border is in the--
    will help more likely keep the peace vis-a-vis Iran in the Middle East.
        Secondly, what has changed with Iran is universal recognition about
    the dangers of Iran having a--the capacity to make a nuclear weapon. And
    therefore, one of the objectives of my administration is to create an
    international coalition all saying the same thing, which is, you have
    defied the IAEA, therefore, you cannot be trusted to say that you're
    only enriching for civilian nuclear power; therefore, stop your process,
    verify they stopped their enrichment process; otherwise, there will
    continue to be international sanctions.

    Iran-U.S. Relations

        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. The Iranian--recently your administration has
    been involved diplomatically with the Iranians. Do you think that
    actually you can bring them to the international fold by engaging them
    diplomatically?
        The President. We're trying to--we've offered them a way forward;
    it's verifiably suspend your enrichment. And we will be at the table
    with other nations.
        And so, well, we discussed Iraq with Iran in a regional context. But
    we have said there is--if you want to have diplomatic relations and
    discussions with the United States, verifiably suspend your enrichment
    program. Our objective is to stop their gain of knowledge that would
    enable them to build a nuclear weapon, because having a nuclear weapon
    would be incredibly destabilizing to the region.
        And so there is a way forward for them to have diplomacy. But it's
    their choice, and thus far, they have not chosen to do it. And I regret
    that our relations are with Iran--are this way, because I have great
    respect for the Iranian people and the Iranian history. And I know that
    they can have a better future with the rest of the world, if their
    leadership were to abandon its desire to learn how to build a nuclear
    weapon.

    Syria

        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. I have a few questions about just Syria and
    Lebanon, but my time is over.
        The President. Well, thank you for your--you're a beautiful
    interviewer.
        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Thank you, sir. So can I go ahead?
        The President. Quickly. And then I really do have to go.
        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Sure, absolutely. I wanted to talk about
    Syria. Basically, the U.S. attacked Syria. But do you see----
        The President. The U.S.----
        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. ----attacked Syria recently. There was a
    target inside Syria that was attacked by----
        The President. Allegedly, yes.
        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Allegedly. But do you see this kind of
    tension will succeed soon, or do you see the U.S. diplomatically engaged
    in Syria?
        The President. First of all, we discussed no operations. Secondly,
    we have engaged Syria early in my administration with Secretary Colin
    Powell and others. And our message was, if
    you'd like to have better relations with us, stop housing Hamas, violent
    Hamas, stop destabilizing the democracy of Lebanon, stop facilitating
    the flow of terrorists into Iraq, be a constructive neighbor to
    countries, and we can have better relations. And they have, thus far,
    chosen to do that. Again, there is a way forward.
        But my worry about just sitting down with people and hoping that
    they end up behaving differently is that oftentimes it reinforces
    behavior that is not in our interests. And so I believe in conditional
    diplomacy. Now, there is a lot of multilateral diplomacy going on out of
    this administration. But in this case, just like Iran, we will have
    diplomatic relations if you choose,

    [[Page 1431]]

    but there's got to be behavioral change in order to justify it.

    Lebanon

        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. And can you stabilize Lebanon?
        The President. I've been trying to--one of the great successes has
    been to get 30,000 or so Syrian troops out of Lebanon. I think one of
    the real keys to peace in the Middle East is Lebanon. And Lebanon is a
    democracy. I've met their President recently
    here in the Oval Office, which--had a very a good discussion. I've been
    very impressed by Prime Minister Siniora's
    courage and boldness. We want to help Lebanon have an armed forces that
    are effective, so that they can protect their people. And we have been
    working very hard for 7 years to free Lebanon as much as possible from
    foreign interference, so that its democracy can grow and mature and be a
    stable contributor to the region.

    President's Legacy in the Middle East

        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. How would you like the people in the Middle
    East to remember you?
        The President. I would hope they would remember me as George W.
    Bush, as a man who respects their religion, respects human rights and
    human dignity, and prays for peace.
        Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Thank you very much. Thank you for your time.
    Thank you.

    Note: The interview began taping at 1 p.m. in the Oval Office and
    continued on the Colonnade and in the Map Room at the White House, for
    later broadcast. In his remarks, the President referred to King Abdallah
    bin Abd al-Aziz Al Saud of Saudi Arabia; President Mahmoud Abbas and
    Prime Minister Salam Fayyad of the Palestinian Authority; Prime Minister
    Ehud Olmert of Israel; Lt. Gen. Keith W. Dayton, USA, U.S. Security
    Coordinator for Israel and the Palestinian Authority; Gen. James L.
    Jones, Jr., USMC (Ret.), Special Envoy for Middle East Security; former
    Prime Minister Tony Blair of the United Kingdom, Quartet Representative
    in the Middle East; former Secretary of State Colin L. Powell; and
    President Michel Sleiman and Prime Minister Fuad Siniora of Lebanon. The
    transcript was released by the Office of the Press Secretary on December
    7. A portion of this interview could not be verified because the tape
    was incomplete.