[Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: George W. Bush (2008, Book I)]
[May 18, 2008]
[Pages 701-706]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]



Interview With Richard Engel of NBC News in 
Sharm el-Sheikh
May 18, 2008

    Mr. Engel. Mr. President, thank you very much for joining me.
    The President. Richard. Thank you, sir.

President's Remarks at the Knesset in Jerusalem, Israel

    Mr. Engel. In front of the Israeli parliament, the Knesset, you said 
that negotiating with Iran is pointless. And then you went further, you 
saying--you said that it was appeasement. Were you referring to Senator 
Barack Obama? He certainly thought you were.
    The President. You know, my policies haven't changed, but evidently 
the political calendar has. People need to read the speech. You didn't 
get it exactly right ei-ther. What I said was, is that we need to take 
the words of people seriously. And when, you know, a leader of Iran says 
that they want to destroy Israel, you got to take those words seriously. 
And if you don't take them seriously, then it harkens back to a day when 
we didn't take other words seriously.
    It was fitting that I talked about not taking the words of Adolph 
Hitler seriously on the floor of the Knesset. But I also talked about 
the need to defend Israel, the need to not negotiate with the likes of 
Al Qaida and Hizballah and Hamas, and the need to make sure Iran doesn't 
get a nuclear weapon. It was a--but I also talked about a vision of 
what's possible in the Middle East.

[[Page 702]]

Iran

    Mr. Engel. Repeatedly, you've talked about Iran and that you don't 
want to see Iran develop a nuclear weapon.
    The President. Yes.
    Mr. Engel. How far away do you think Iran is from developing a 
nuclear capability?
    The President. You know, Richard, I don't want to speculate, and 
there's a lot of speculation. But one thing is for certain: We need to 
prevent them from learning how to enrich uranium. And I have made it 
clear to the Iranians that there is a seat at the table for them if they 
would verifiably suspend their enrichment. And if not, we'll continue to 
rally the world to isolate them.

U.S. Foreign Policy/Iran

    Mr. Engel. You've been rallying the world. Have you had some success 
on this Arab tour to try and--and Israeli tour--to mobilize this 
community against Iran? Is that part of your mission?
    The President. No, it's not so much; actually, the place where I'm 
spending time, in terms of dealing with serious economic isolation, is 
with our European friends. They're the ones who have had significant 
trade with the Iranians. We're dealing with it not only in goods and 
services, trying to convince them to hold back goods and services until 
there's a verifiable suspension, but also dealing with the Iranian 
finances.
    I don't have to spend too much time in the world--in this part of 
the world creating concerns about Iran. There is big concern about Iran, 
given the fact that Hizballah is destabilizing Lebanon, Hamas is trying 
to prevent the creation of a Palestinian state, and, of course, Iranian 
action inside of Iraq.

Iraq/Iran

    Mr. Engel. A lot of Iran's empowerment is a result of the war in 
Iraq. How do you feel----
    The President. Yes.
    Mr. Engel. ----that Iran is--its position in the world is rising 
because of your actions in Iraq?
    The President. See, I'm not so sure I agree with that. That's a 
premise I don't necessarily agree with. As a matter of fact, I think 
Iran is troubled by the fact that a young democracy is growing in Iraq. 
I--you know, this notion about somehow if Saddam Hussein were in power, 
everything would be fine in the Middle East is a ludicrous notion. 
Saddam Hussein was a sponsor of terror. And can you imagine what it'd be 
like to see an arms race between Saddam Hussein and Ahmadi-
nejad, in terms of creating instability 
in the Middle East? As a matter of fact, the way to ultimately defeat 
those who use terror to destabilize young democracies is to help the 
young democracies succeed.

Progress in Iraq

    Mr. Engel. I've watched Iran's influence grow in Iraq. It's been 
very steady over the years. What are you going to do to try and 
counteract----
    The President. Yes.
    Mr. Engel. ----Iran's influence?
    The President. Well, Basra, for example, is--we stood by the Prime 
Minister's decision to move into Basra and 
to--continue to encourage the Prime Minister to go after Shi'a criminals 
and Shi'a armed militias that are doing harm to the average Iraqi and, 
at the same time, encourage him to use some of the Iraqi wealth to 
improve conditions of life. And that's what's happening. Basra is--it's 
still obviously got work to be done, but it was a successful operation, 
as you know better than me. He's now heading into Sadr City--he, the 
Iraqi Government--all aiming to protect innocent people from people who 
are operating outside the law. And to the extent that those are folks 
who are supported by Iran, it will serve as a defeat to Iran.
    Iraq is changing. You know it better than anybody; you've been 
spending a lot of time there. And it's in the interest of the

[[Page 703]]

United States that we help it continue to change to the better.

Freedom Agenda/Iran

    Mr. Engel. You talked about Iran being a major threat to American 
policies in the region, with Hamas, Hizballah, militia groups in Iraq. 
Do you intend to finish your term in office with a military action of 
some kind against Iran?
    The President. Richard, that's highly speculative. I've always made 
it clear that options are on the table. But, you know, the biggest 
weapon we have against those who can't stand freedom is the advance of 
freedom. I'm going to give a speech here in a minute that talks about 
the need to advance the freedom agenda in the Middle East.
    And my--you know, Iran is a threat to people who want to live in 
peace. That's what they've clearly shown. I mean, the interesting thing 
in Lebanon is that Hizballah, which had sold itself as a protector 
against Israel, all of a sudden turned its weapons on the people of 
Lebanon and all the--the true colors. And sometimes in life there needs 
to be clarity in order for people to rally to solve a problem.
    And so the best way to deal with the Iranians in the Middle East is 
to help the young democracy of Lebanon survive, is to stand up a 
Palestinian state--obviously, subject to the roadmap--which we intend to 
do before my Presidency, and succeed in Iraq.

Lebanon

    Mr. Engel. How are you going to prevent Hizballah from taking over 
in Lebanon? They had a small coup. The army didn't do anything. And they 
proved that they are clearly in control of the streets when they want to 
be.
    The President. Yes. Well, that's a problem. And obviously, one thing 
to do is to help strengthen the Lebanese Army, which I sent General 
Dempsey to Beirut--I don't know if he was 
there when you were there, but he was there precisely to help inventory 
the Lebanese Army--is to make it clear to Prime Minister 
Siniora, we stand strongly with you. We'll see 
what happens out of this agreement and how--whether it sticks or not. 
But we strongly support the March 14th Coalition.
    Perhaps one way to help deal with the situation is to get the U.N. 
tribunal up and running that's investigating the death of Mr. Hariri. 
But you know, no question, it's a tough situation. It's not as if 
Lebanon has been a stable situation forever either. I mean, this is--and 
yet the Lebanese people deserve a peaceful democracy, and our aim is to 
help them.

President's Remarks at the Knesset in Jerusalem

    Mr. Engel. It sounded like, when you were addressing the Israeli 
Knesset, you gave a green light to Israel to take action against 
Hizballah and Hamas.
    The President. I don't--Richard, you can read into it what you want 
to read into it. That certainly wasn't my intention. My intention was to 
say that all of us need to understand that radical groups are the threat 
to peace, whether it be Al Qaida or Hamas or Hizballah.

Iran

    Mr. Engel. Negotiations with Iran--is that appeasement? Is that 
like----
    The President. No.
    Mr. Engel. ----appeasing Adolph Hitler?
    The President. My position, Richard, all along has been that if the 
Iranians verifiably suspend their enrichment, which will be a key 
measure to stop them from gaining the know-how to build a weapon, then 
we--they can come to the table, and the United States will be at the 
table. That's been a position of my administration for, gosh, I can't 
remember how many years, but it's a clear position. We've stated it over 
and over again.
    But I've also said that if they choose not to do that--verifiably 
suspend--we will

[[Page 704]]

continue to rally the world to isolate the Iranians. And it is having an 
effect inside their country. There's a better way forward for the 
Iranian people than to be isolated, and their leaders just need to make 
better choices.

U.S. Troop Levels in Iraq

    Mr. Engel. In Iraq, I recently met a soldier. He was medevaced out 
on his first tour. He's now back on his second tour--was already 
medevaced to the green zone. How many more tours do these soldiers have 
to do? Is there an exit strategy for Iraq?
    The President. Well, first of all, the fact that this person 
volunteered again speaks to the great bravery of our troops. And we need 
to honor them and will honor them. And one way to do so is to have more 
set tours: in for 12, out for 12.
    The other thing is to take care of their families, and when they're 
veterans, take care of the vets. You know, the fact that you told me 
about a guy who got medevaced twice only says to me that we've got a 
courageous military.
    In terms of success, we're returning troops on success. You might 
remember, I had to make a difficult choice to put more troops in. Those 
troops are coming home by July. And then, of course, General 
Petraeus and his successor will assess the 
situation on the ground, and we will end up having the troops necessary 
to help the Iraqis succeed.

U.S. Troop Levels in Iraq/Progress in Iraq

    Mr. Engel. So it doesn't sound like there's an end anytime soon. It 
just sounds like we need to support them as much as we can and keep them 
there for as long as we can.
    The President. I think the end, Richard, is, I told you, return on 
success. The more successful Iraq is, the fewer troops we'll need. And 
there's no question, Iraq is becoming successful. The security situation 
has changed; the political situation is a lot better; the economic 
situation--unlike other parts of this world--are pretty strong. And now 
the question is, are they going to be able to get the resources in an 
efficient way to the people, so the people see the benefits of 
democracy? And they're doing a better job of that.

Progress in Iraq

    Mr. Engel. You still view Iraq as a success. Because on the ground, 
it looks very bleak. People still want to leave the country, and people 
are----
    The President. Well, that's interesting you said that. That's a 
little different from the surveys I've seen and a little different from 
the attitude of the actual Iraqis I've talked to, but you're entitled to 
your opinion.
    Mr. Engel. The Iraqi Government, I think, has one position, which is 
that it's seeing a lot of progress. But Sadr City has been up in revolt. 
There's major battles in Mosul. I was just in a major firefight in Sadr 
City, hit by an EFP. It is still very much a war zone.
    The President. Richard, no question, it's violent. But there's no 
question that the Iraqi Government are dealing with the violent people. 
It's like this attitude about Basra. I can remember, you know, a good 
reporter saying, ``Basra is a disaster.'' I'm not suggesting you did, 
but people said, ``It's a disaster.'' And lo and behold, it wasn't; it 
was successful.
    What you're watching is an Iraqi Government take care of extremists 
in their midst so that a democracy can survive. And it's essential that 
this democracy survive for our own security as well as the stability of 
the Middle East.

Middle East Peace Process/Lebanon

    Mr. Engel. You've talked about having a Israeli-Palestinian peace 
agreement by the end of this year.
    The President. Right.
    Mr. Engel. What gives you hope that that is not overly ambitious? 
Why do you think that's possible?

[[Page 705]]

    The President. Because, first of all, people in Israel understand 
that in order for them to have long-term security, there has to be a 
democratic state. People in Palestine want a democratic state. Now, 
there are people opposing that--Hamas, in particular--trying to create 
the violence and fear to stop the state from progressing.
    Secondly, I know their leaders. I spent a lot of time with Prime 
Minister Olmert and President Abbas. They are dedicated to doing the hard 
work.
    And thirdly, I've seen the progress being made on issues like----
    Mr. Engel. What about Hamas? Hamas was elected----
    The President. Excuse me for a minute, please--on issues like the 
border and refugees and security. And yes, Hamas was elected, and 
they've done a disaster in--of running Gaza. And there will be an 
interesting contrast between the vision of Hamas and their record and 
the vision of President Abbas 
and Prime Minister Fayyad and the Palestinian 
state. And it's that vision, the competing visions that will be put 
forth to the Palestinian people at some time.
    And I believe a state will exist, and I know it's necessary for 
peace in the Middle East. And I think--I feel good that we can get it 
defined during my Presidency and implemented subject to roadmap.

Freedom Agenda/Al Qaida

    Mr. Engel. Going back to your vision and the message you've been 
pushing about democracy and supporting moderates across the region, if 
you look back over the last several years, the Middle East that you'll 
be handing over to the next President has--is deeply problematic. You 
have Hamas in power, Hizballah empowered, taking to the streets, more--
stronger than the Government, Iran empowered, Iraq still at war. What 
region----
    The President. Richard.
    Mr. Engel. ----are you handing over?
    The President. Richard, those folks were always around; they were 
here. What we're handing over is a Middle East that, one, recognizes the 
problems--and the world recognizes them. There's clarity as to what the 
problems are. To say all of a sudden that Hamas showed up is just not 
factual. They have been around, and they have been dangerous. Hizballah 
has been around, and they are dangerous. They have been--that's why we 
put them on the terrorist list before my Presidency.
    And what you're beginning to see is new democracies. You'll see a 
Palestinian state. You'll see a--Iraq emerging. And it doesn't happen 
overnight. The freedom movement is not a instant. The freedom movement 
is a challenge to a system that said, the status quo is acceptable, when 
underneath was brewing all kinds of resentments.
    We've taken on Al Qaida in the Middle East. It was from here that 
they recruited people to launch attacks. And while they're still 
existing, they've been hurt. And they're going to be hurt even more as 
liberty advances and freedom advances.

Al Qaida/Iran

    Mr. Engel. Do you believe that Iran is now more of a threat in Iraq 
than Al Qaida?
    The President. You know, that's an interesting question. I believe--
yes, I bet--I think they've both been seriously hurt in Iraq. And you 
know, Al Qaida thought they were going to have a stronghold in Anbar 
Province. They proudly proclaimed this was going to be their capital 
from which they were going to launch missions around the world and 
throughout the region, and they failed.
    And in Iran [Iraq], * Shi'a groups funded by Iran have tried to take 
on the Government. And the Government is succeeding, and it's--but it's 
going to take a while.
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    * White House correction.

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[[Page 706]]

War on Terror/Freedom Agenda

    Mr. Engel. The war on terrorism has been the centerpiece of your 
Presidency. Many people say that it has not made the world safer, that 
it has created more radicals, that there are more people in this part of 
the world who want to attack the United States.
    The President. Yes. That theory says, by confronting the people that 
killed us, therefore, there's going to be more; therefore, we shouldn't 
confront them.
    Mr. Engel. Or creating more people who want to kill us, one could 
also say.
    The President. Well, you can say that, but the truth of the matter 
is, there's fewer Al Qaida leaders; the people are on the run; they're 
having more trouble recruiting in the Middle East. Saudi Arabia, our 
partner, has gone after Al Qaida. People now see Al Qaida for what it 
is, which is a group of extremists and radicals who preach nothing but 
hate. And no, I just--it's just the beehive theory. We should have just 
let the beehive sit there and hope the bees don't come out of the hive.
    My attitude is, the United States must stay on the offense against 
Al Qaida--two ways. One from----
    Mr. Engel. But haven't you just smashed the bees----
    The President. ----two ways----
    Mr. Engel. ----in the hive and let them spread?
    The President. Excuse me for a minute, Richard, two ways: One, find 
them and bring them to justice--what we're doing; and two, offer freedom 
as an alternative to their vision. And somehow to suggest that bees 
would stay in the hive is naive. They didn't stay in the hive when they 
came and killed 3,000 of our citizens.
    Mr. Engel. Thank you very much for your time, Mr. President.
    The President. Yes, sir. Yes.
    Mr. Engel. Thank you.

Note: The interview was taped at 2:02 p.m. at the Hyatt Regency Sharm El 
Sheikh for later broadcast. In his remarks, the President referred to 
President Mahmud Ahmadi-nejad of Iran; Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki of 
Iraq; Lt. Gen. Martin E. Dempsey, USA, acting commander, U.S. Central 
Command; Prime Minister Fuad Siniora of Lebanon; Gen. David H. Petraeus, 
USA, commanding general, Multi-National Force--Iraq; Prime Minister Ehud 
Olmert of Israel; and President Mahmoud Abbas and Prime Minister Salam 
Fayyad of the Palestinian Authority. The transcript was released by the 
Office of the Press Secretary on May 19.