    [Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: George W. Bush (2008, Book I)]
    [May 12, 2008]
    [Pages 669-672]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]

    Interview With Mona Shazli of Egypt's Dream TV
    May 12, 2008

        Ms. Shazli. Mr. President, it's not an easy thing to interview the
    President of the most powerful state on--in the world. However, what is
    more difficult is to size down your questions to fit in the minutes.
        The President. In the timeframe. [Laughter]

    Egypt-U.S. Relations

        Ms. Shazli. Yes. My first question is, people in Egypt, sometimes
    they get confused. On one hand, they hear the U.S. statements, speeches
    that stress on the long-lasting relationships with Egypt, the strategic
    importance of Egypt to the U.S. and to the Middle East, Egypt as the
    major player in the peace process. On the other hand, they could see
    indications that contradicts with this: U.S. depending on other parties
    in the region, your snatching visit to Sharm el-Sheikh last January, the
    partial cutting of the U.S. aid. How would you comment on that?
        The President. Yes. I would comment this, that from my perspective,
    the Egyp-tian-U.S. relationship is a very important part of our Middle
    Eastern foreign policy, for these reasons: One, Egypt has got a proud
    history and a great tradition, and a lot of people look to Egypt for
    help.
        Now, the United States can't solve a lot of problems on our own, has
    to have allies be a part of it. And so on the Palestinian issue, for
    example, Egypt can be very constructive and has been constructive and
    helpful. Egypt has got a society that honors diversity and gives people
    a chance to realize their talents, like you. I mean, you're a very
    smart, capable professional woman who has showed the rest of the Middle
    East what's possible in the Middle East. And Egypt has been on the
    forefront of modernization. Egypt is a--strategically located.
        And so our relationship is strong and good. We've had our
    differences--on elections, for example. But nevertheless, to answer your
    question, I would say the relationship is very solid and very important.

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    Democracy Efforts in Egypt

        Ms. Shazli. Then how would you perceive the state of democracy in
    Egypt?
        The President. I would say, fits and starts; good news and bad news.
    In other words, there's been some moments where it looked like Egypt was
    going to continue to lead the Middle East on the democracy movement, and
    there's been some setbacks. But I guess that just reflects the nature of
    the administration and their--on the one hand, their desire for
    democracy; on the other hand, their concerns about different movements.
    My view is, is that democracy is a powerful engine for reform and change
    and leads to peace.
        Ms. Shazli. But the public opinion--sometimes they perceive the U.S.
    criticism to the development of democracy in Egypt as an unacceptable
    intervention in the internal affairs.
        The President. Yes, I can understand that. Look, nobody wants the
    big, influential guy to come from the outside and tell them what to do.
    I'm sensitive to that. On the other hand, I do believe it's important
    for a leader in a country to adhere to certain values, universal values.
    I think the idea of giving people a chance to vote and a chance to
    participate freely in society is a universal value. And so it's--I try
    to balance, on the one hand, my beliefs, and on the other hand, a
    friendship with the Government and friendship with President
    Mubarak.

    Middle East Peace Process

        Ms. Shazli. It's a matter of hours, and you will be in Tel Aviv
    celebrating the 60th anniversary of the establishment of the State of
    Israel. This celebration might be perceived by Palestinians and Arabs
    like--it is criticized, because it's ignoring the flip side, which is
    the 60 years of agony, pain, and struggle in the area, in the region.
    What would you tell Palestinians and Arab concerning this?
        The President. Well, I am going to talk to the Palestinians face to
    face when I come to Sharm el-Sheikh. And I will say that there's been 60
    years of struggling on both sides, and it's time that the struggle has
    got to end. And now for--is the time for the development of a
    Palestinian state that has got defined borders, that doesn't look like
    Swiss cheese; in other words, it's contiguous territory, where the
    refugee issue is dealt with. And that's what my message is, is that I'm
    going to--I fully recognize the agony and pain that have been lived by
    everybody in the region, and that here's one way forward. And it's a--
    and we will continue to work, and hopefully, by the end of my
    Presidency, we'll get the definition of a state. And so I'll talk to
    President Mubarak about how we can
    work together.

    Palestinian State

        Ms. Shazli. Is this--some people would consider this as getting the
    ceiling lower and lower. Before, you said this--your administration will
    witness the declaration of the Palestinian state. Now we are talking
    about only the definition of the state.
        The President. No, no, it's always been the definition, cause I
    always said that the state won't come into being until certain
    obligations are met through the roadmap. And so the whole purpose was to
    define--it's a semantical difference, but I really haven't changed my
    position.

    Middle East Peace Process

        Ms. Shazli. Former President Jimmy Carter was in Cairo weeks ago,
    and he was really trying to tell how he was seeing things. He said with
    a simple comparison between the victims from the Israeli side and the
    Palestinian side, you can see who is suffering more.
        The President. Yes. Well, everybody has got their opinions. I just
    happen to believe that I'm in a position to help move the definition of
    a state, which will help solve the problem in the long run. I'm the
    first President ever to have articulated a two-state solution, two
    states living side by side

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    in peace. And my only thing I want to tell your listeners is that I'm
    going to drive hard, along with Secretary Rice and other people in my administration, to see if
    we can't get the Palestinians and Israelis to agree on what that state
    will look like.

    War on Terror

        Ms. Shazli. Mr. President, do you still believe that who's not with
    us is against us?
        The President. Yes. Yes, in the war on terror, I do. Yes. When you
    kill innocent people to achieve political objectives, I think they're
    against civilized people. We've witnessed this kind of ideological----
        Ms. Shazli. But minutes ago, you said we have differences. We have--
    --
        The President. Of course, we have differences.
        Ms. Shazli. ----it's normal to have differences.
        The President. It is, but killing people to achieve political
    objectives is--it's one thing to have differences of opinion, it's
    another thing to have differences of action. And my comments about
    that--what--the line you just quoted was in the context of dealing with
    these extremists, like Al Qaida or Hamas, who just murder innocent
    people. And, yes, I still feel very strongly about that. Most people
    don't believe in using murder as a political tool. Most people want to
    live in peace, and so do I.

    President's Image Abroad

        Ms. Shazli. I have only just a chance for one question.
        The President. Sure.
        Ms. Shazli. You will be in the region very soon: Israel, Saudi
    Arabia, and then Egypt. The question is, maybe there are 250 million
    Arabs who think that President Bush has added to their sufferings and
    problems during his administration. How would you adjudicate this?
        The President. I would just ask them to wait for history to answer
    the question. There's an advent of a young democracy in Iraq. Ask those
    people what it's like to live under a freer society, rather than the
    thumb of a tyrant or a dictator; or the people that we're trying to help
    in Lebanon by getting the Syrians out through a U.N. Security Council
    resolution; or the Palestinians who--for whom I've articulated a state.
        In other words, I understand people's opinions. All I ask is that
    when history is finally recorded, judge whether or not I've been a
    contributor to peace or not.

    President's Legacy

        Ms. Shazli. You think history will be in your side?
        The President. I think history will say, George Bush clearly saw the
    threats that keep the Middle East in turmoil and was willing to do
    something about it, was willing to lead, and had this great faith in the
    capacity of democracies and the great faith in the capacity of people to
    decide the fate of their countries; and that the democracy movement
    gained impetus and gained movement in the Middle East. Yes, I think
    people will say, ``Well, he had a difficult set of circumstances to deal
    with, and he dealt with them with a sense of idealism.''
        Ms. Shazli. Mr. President, thank you for this interview.
        The President. Yes, thanks for coming.

    Note: The interview was taped at 11:42 a.m. in the Map Room at the White
    House for later broadcast. In his remarks, the President referred to
    President Mohamed Hosni Mubarak of Egypt. The transcript was released by
    the Office of the Press Secretary on May 13.

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