    [Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: George W. Bush (2008, Book I)]
    [January 15, 2008]
    [Pages 81-89]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]

    Interview With Journalists in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia
    January 15, 2008

        White House Press Secretary Dana Perino.
    We'll start on the record, just some general comments and answer a
    couple of questions. And then if you feel like you want to go off the
    record, then we'll ask them to turn their tape recorders off.
        The President. Okay, I'd like to go off the record. [Laughter]
        Q. Give us a couple. [Laughter]
        The President. We'll start with the older people first. [Laughter]

    Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice/Iraq

        Q. Well, one of the things that we were all interested in is
    Secretary Rice going to Iraq. When did you decide about that, and what's
    that all about?
        The President. Decided when it looked like that there was serious
    momentum on the legislative front, that she could help push the momentum
    by her very presence. So I can't remember the exact moment; I would say
    it was maybe 10 days ago or something like that, when we were getting
    word that their budget moving, the de-Ba'ath law was on its--it had gone
    through two readings, I think, before the holidays. So it seemed to make
    sense that she go sit down with the--and the Presidency Council happened
    to meet yesterday, which was good. So she's going to go and sit down
    with the leaders and encourage them to continue making progress.
        Q. But not you, you decided it wasn't right for you to go.
        The President. Yes. Yes, I decided it was best for Condi to go. I'm
    not going.
        By the way, I talk to the Prime Minister
    quite frequently on secure SVTS, which is a real-time feed from our
    Embassy in Baghdad to the Situation Room in the White House. And we meet
    biweekly. I meet with Ryan Crocker and
    David--General Petraeus weekly, and it's
    like a meeting.
        Q. So she's just in and out? This is real quick?
        The President. Yes, she'll be back this evening; probably hold a
    press conference here this evening. The Saudis want to have a press
    conference with the Foreign Minister and Condi. Yes, it's just a quick trip.
        White House Press Secretary Perino. Timing
    and location are still being worked out.
        The President. Time and location because, you know, you don't want
    to set

    [[Page 82]]

    the time and have her not be back for it. But her intention is to get
    back here for dinner at the King's ranch.
        Q. What time----
        The President. She left this morning at 6:40 a.m.--or left the
    facility here at 6:40 a.m. And I presume it's, like, on the news, right?
        Q. Yes.
        The President. I haven't seen the news.
        Q. It's been reported.
        Q. So is it basically to promote----
        The President. It's to, first of all, be there. And secondly, is
    to--there's a momentum; there's a political process that has been
    working that is--with some of those laws coming to fruition. Her job is
    to be there, sitting down with them, explaining how much we appreciate
    what they've done, how they need to do more and keep moving the process.

    Progress in Iraq

        Q. You know, we've been talking about these benchmarks for so long.
    Do you really feel like maybe now it's starting to turn a corner a bit,
    or is that too early to say?
        The President. First of all, I think--we've been talking about the
    benchmarks for how long? When you say ``so long''----
        Q. Almost a year now, isn't it?
        The President. Yes, I think that's right; it has been almost a year.
    A political system evolves and grows. It grows when people have
    confidence. It grows when the grassroots begins to agitate for change.
    It grows when there's alternatives. There's competition emerging. Those
    are all the forces necessary to bring people together to get things
    done. And the leadership is more confident. The grassroots is more
    involved. There's been more reconciliation taking place at the local
    level. And the Government is beginning to respond.
        This is--we assume that democracy is a natural phenomenon for people
    out there. These are people that lived under tyranny. They lived in a
    society that was divided by a dictator. And they're beginning to form
    the habits of self-government, manifested in laws being passed. I'm not
    going to predict, Steven Lee [Steven Lee Myers, New York Times], about
    moving this forward. I can only assure you that we will continue to work
    the process as hard as we can.
        I reminded everybody last year, you know, people did focus on the
    benchmarks, and so do I. But I also reminded everybody last year that
    one way to determine whether or not a government is functioning is to
    look at their budgeting process and how they distribute revenues from
    central Government out to the Provinces, which is a key component of a
    federalized-type system. And the definition of federalism, by the way,
    has yet to be clearly defined in Iraq, and that's part of the issues
    they're working through. But it's a proper role between the state
    government--central Government and the Provinces, and that's another
    piece of legislation that is part of the benchmark process.
        But nevertheless, even though they haven't passed that, there is
    revenue sharing. In other words, there is a process. There's a way to
    allocate revenues. Do they have an oil law yet? No. Are they sharing oil
    revenues that would be inherent under an oil law? Yes, they are.

    Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC)

        Q. Sir.
        The President. Yes, Holly [Holly Rosenkrantz, Bloomberg News].
        Q. Thank you.
        The President. I knew you were anxious to ask because you're waving
    your hand. Look, this is not like the White House press conferences.
        Q. I never know when you're going to be shuffled out before I get a
    chance. [Laughter] It's been a long day. [Laughter]
        The President. Atta girl. Stand your ground, whatever you do.
    [Laughter]
        Q. I just wanted to ask you if you could just clarify a little bit
    your statement this

    [[Page 83]]

    morning to OPEC. What specific action would you like them to take at
    their first meeting coming up February?
        The President. I would like for them to realize that high energy
    prices affect the economies of consuming nations, and that if these
    economies weaken, those economies will eventually be buying fewer
    barrels of oil. And having said that, there is not a lot of excess
    capacity in the marketplace. What's happened is, is that demand for
    energy has outstripped new supply. And that's why there's high price.
    And I fully understand how it affects the U.S. consumer. And my point to
    His Majesty is going to
    be, when consumers have less purchasing power because of high prices of
    gasoline--in other words, when it affects their families--it could cause
    this economy to slow down. If the economy slows down, there will be less
    barrels of oil purchased.
        Now in our case, just so the American people know, most of our oil
    comes from Canada and Mexico. But oil is a market; it's globalized; it's
    fungible. That's what I meant.
        Q. ----brought it up with King Abdallah already?
        The President. Excuse me?
        Q. Did you bring it up already?
        The President. No, I have not. I brought it up with members of his
    administration and will do so with him tonight on the farm.

    President's Visit to Saudi Arabia/Iran

        Q. Can you talk a little bit about your discussions with him so far
    and whether you've had a meeting of minds on any issues, whether it's
    Iran, Iraq----
        The President. I appreciate that. He is most interested in two subjects, right off the
    bat: first, the Israeli-Palestinian peace process. I think what he
    really wanted to determine was how--when I said, ``optimistic about a
    state being defined,'' why? So he's interested in the meetings,
    interested in the behind-the-scenes observations that I was able to
    share with him.
        He is--part of my
    mission was to make it clear that one reason why the talks failed in the
    past is that there wasn't participation by the neighbors. And I thanked
    him, in front of the people assembled there, for sending his Foreign
    Minister to Annapolis,
    because the presence of Saudi at Annapolis inspired the Palestinians as
    well as sent a message to the Israelis--Israeli population, for example.
        We did spend time on Iran. The interesting issue on Iran is the
    effect of the NIE. And I went over the NIE with him.

    [At this point, the interview continued, and no transcript was provided.
    The remarks later continued as follows.]

        The President. I assured him that our intelligence services came to
    an independent judgment. I reminded him of what I said at my press
    conference when we got involved with that story. They were a threat,
    they are a threat, and they will be a threat if we don't work together
    to stop their enrichment. So we spent a fair amount of time on Iran. I
    have spent a fair amount of time on Iran in every stop.
        It is not the only subject. There's probably more interest in my
    discussions on the Middle Eastern peace. Many of the leaders in the
    region, many of the people I have spoken to, equate troubled times with
    no peace between the Palestinian and Israelis. It's the subject matter
    that, if you follow this subject, you know that this is on a lot of
    people's minds.
        And so they were--they wanted to make sure that the efforts by the
    United States were real and how we conducted our policy wise. It's
    interesting; they weren't all that interested in, okay, give me the
    negotiating points, or where are you, or what are the talking points on
    both sides, or where are we in the negotiations. They're interested in
    commitment and vision.
        I would like to share a universal concern I've heard on this trip,
    and that is, the United States will not welcome foreign capital or does
    not welcome foreign capital.

    [[Page 84]]

    I heard it from entrepreneurs; I've heard it from government leaders.
    They are concerned about reinvestment of dollars back into the United
    States. There's a genuine concern about protectionism. And there's--our
    visa policy concerns the leaders because they know full well that the
    best way--these are pro-American leaders, and they know the best way to
    defeat some perceptions that may exist on the street is for their people
    to go see America firsthand, like colleges and business travel. And our
    visa policy is getting better in some fronts, but we've still got some
    work to do.
        So I came away with the distinct impression about a concern by
    government and citizen alike that the United States says, ``not
    welcome.'' And that troubles me because that's not the way our country
    is.

    National Intelligence Estimate

        Q. Just a couple quick follow-ups on Iran. On the NIE, did you--were
    you, in effect, distancing yourself from the conclusions of the NIE, and
    these guys----
        The President. No, I was making it clear it was an independent
    judgment, because what they basically came to the conclusion of, is that
    he's trying--you know, this is a way to
    make sure that all options aren't on the table. So I defended our
    intelligence services, but made it clear that they're an independent
    agency, that they come to conclusions separate from what I may or may
    not want.

    Iran

        Q. And on the issue of Iran, did the question of a possible military
    strike either by the United States or Israel come up?
        The President. I just made it clear that all options are on the
    table. But I'd like to solve this diplomatically--and think we can--and
    talked about making sure consistent messages emanated from all parts of
    the world to the Iranians.

    Strait of Hormuz Naval Incident

        Q. Related to that, this confrontation in the Straits with the
    Iranian gunboats, are the rules of engagement going to change on that?
    You've warned of serious consequences if they do it again.
        The President. I did. I said, ``If they destroy our ships,'' yes. If
    they destroy our ships, there will be serious consequences.
        Q. Yes, but I'm saying, if they----
        The President. I didn't say, ``If they do it again.'' If they do it
    again, I don't know. What do you mean, ``If they do it again''?
        Q. Well, if they approach the ships and would there----
        The President. Well, there is clear rules of engagement. Our
    captains--I was briefed by the admiral in
    Bahrain about the rules of engagement. But please don't confuse hitting
    our ships with explosives or attacking our ships and serious----
        Q. Okay, I won't. But I just was wondering whether the next time
    something like that is attempted by one of these Iranian boats, they
    might be fired on.
        The President. I don't know. It's going to be up to the captain to
    determine whether or not his vessel is in jeopardy. My only point is,
    they shouldn't be doing it. It was provocative in the first place, and
    our captain showed restraint. These are
    judgment calls, and there are clear rules of engagement. Our people
    operate under very strict rules in the Straits, and so should the
    Iranians. And they better be careful of--and not be provocative and, you
    know, get out there and cause an incident, because there's going to be
    serious consequences. And what I said in my statement was, if they hit
    one of our ships, there are going to be serious consequences, and I
    meant it.
        Q. Do you have any sense of what they were up to? What motive----
        The President. I don't know.
        Q. Were they test----
        The President. I don't know.

    [[Page 85]]

        Q. Do you think they were playing some sort of game?
        The President. I don't know. I don't know. I was briefed; I spent
    some time in Bahrain with--you know, when I went over there for the
    breakfast with the troops, command briefed us, our security team, on
    what are the rules of engagement, you know, and how do they work, how
    does it react. This is one of these moments where there's no time to be
    spending a lot time on the phone trying to figure out what to do. And
    there's--these are highly trained professionals who, I thought, dealt
    with it in a very professional way.
        Q. Sir, are you sure of whether or not this was actually directed
    out of Tehran, the President's office, or whether it's some separate----
        The President. It could be. IRGC or--versus the military, but you
    know something? It's not going to matter to me one way or the other if
    they hit our ships, and the Iranian Government has got to understand
    that. This is serious business. We lost lives when one of those boats
    loaded with explosives attacked us--called the USS Cole. In this case,
    it would be states--it would be the actions of a state. And so my
    message was clear to the Iranian Government: Whoever made the--is in
    control of these boats best be careful.
        Q. You were suggesting that this could be--could have been directed
    by the Revolutionary Guard?
        The President. No, I'm not. His question was, do we know the chain
    of command? There's several chains of command inside the--it was a very
    perceptive comment by the lad, and it was--there are separate military
    organizations, separate organizations inside Iran, and so we don't know.
        Q. The IRGC, was that the----
        The President. The IRGC could be--is a player inside Iran. I don't
    know. Do not write the story that I'm predicting who made this decision,
    because I'm telling you--I can't be any more plain about it--I don't
    know. I do know it was a provocative incident.
        And my other was, it's not going to matter who made the decision. If
    they hit our ships, we will hold Iran responsible.
        Q. Okay. Can we ask you on----
        The President. You can ask me anything you want. If I don't want to
    answer, I'll say, I don't want to answer it. [Laughter] I'm feeling
    quite feisty here, Steven Lee. [Laughter]
        Q. You are? Are you in a good mood?
        The President. Yes, a great mood.
        Q. I do.
        The President. Dates put you in a good mood, right? I'm in a great
    mood.
        Q. Which kind of dates are you talking about? [Laughter]
        The President. Not bad. Not bad. [Laughter] Pretty good. A
    wordsmith. [Laughter] All right, go ahead.

    Iran

        Q. In your discussions with King Abdallah and other Gulf Arab
    leaders, were they in any way urging restraint? There's been some
    concern----
        The President. What?
        Q. Were they in any way urging you restraint in your dealings with
    Iran?
        The President. I told them that I want to solve this issue
    diplomatically. My position has not altered. I explained to them the
    diplomacy we're going through. They need to help. They need to make it
    clear to nations that do business with Iran that if we want to solve
    this diplomatically, there needs to be pressure on the regime so that
    some--the hope is, is that somebody shows up and says, ``We're tired of
    being isolated, and we're tired of the economic deprivation that comes
    from our desire to enrich.''
        I also explained to them why I support the Russian position. And for
    those of you who follow the White House and have listened carefully to
    what I've been saying, know full well that's been my position for quite
    a while. Because I said early on that I supported the Iranian desire
    for--they

    [[Page 86]]

    said, every sovereign nation has the right for a civilian nuclear power.
    I said, you're right. I said, the problem with you is, you haven't
    honored the international agreements--``you'' being the Iranians. And
    secondly--therefore, we can't trust you with enrichment.
        But because I believe that you have a sovereign right for nuclear
    power, I support the Russian idea of providing you with enriched uranium
    and collecting the spent uranium, thereby undermining their position
    that they need to learn to enrich in order to have civilian nuclear
    power. And the danger with enrichment for civilian--so-called civilian
    purposes is, is that that technology can be transferred easily to
    another covert military program. Knowledge is transferable, and so what
    I've explained to our friends in the region is the best way to stop any
    potential weapons program is----

    [There was an interruption, and the remarks continued as follows.]

        The President. I'm not starting over. I'm not starting over.
    [Laughter]
        Q. That's all right; you don't have to.
        The President. Good, yes. Anyway--is to start a weapons program--to
    stop a weapons program is to stop their ability to enrich. I've also
    explained to them our position is, is that if they verifiably suspend
    their program, there is a way forward for dialogue through the P-3
    process. What do you call--what do we call that? The group of five----
        White House Press Secretary Perino. The P-5-
    plus-1.
        The President. The P-5-plus-1 process.
        Q. Mr. President----
        The President. Are you hogging this?
        Q. Yes. [Laughter]
        The President. I'm teasing. Go ahead.

    Israel/Iran

        Q. Just one quick follow-up on Iran, just because it comes up, I
    mean, this issue of what Israel will do has been out there ever since
    Vice President Cheney raised it with Don Imus in the very beginning of
    your second term, about the Israelis having a----
        The President. I don't remember that. What did he say?
        Q. Oh, he said there was concern about what the Israelis might do.
    And particularly in the weeks since the NIE, there has been murmuring in
    Israel--Israeli defense circles. One of your own former officials, Bruce
    Riedel, told me a few weeks ago----
        The President. Who?
        Q. Bruce Riedel--he used to work on the NSC--said that he came back
    from a visit to Iran----

    [The interview continued, and no transcript was provided. The remarks
    later continued as follows.]

        Press Secretary Perino. I would recommend--
    you have about 10 more minutes.

    National Economy

        Q. Can we ask you about--let's go back on the economy. You talked
    about the threat of the economy slowing down if consumers buy less oil,
    or can----
        The President. The price of energy can have an effect on economic
    growth. I was talking about--they were asking me about what I'm going to
    say to King Abdallah.
    And I'm going to say, high energy prices can affect economic growth
    because it's painful for our consumers.
        Q. My question is, you've talked about inheriting a recession when
    you came into office. You're a year away from leaving office. Do you
    think that your successor is going to wind up in the same boat?
        The President. I've always said these are times of economic
    uncertainty, but I have confidence in the future--immediate future
    because the underpinnings of our economy are good. Inflation--core
    inflation--is low; we've still got some. And employment has been strong.
    We've still got some issues, obviously, and one of them is the housing

    [[Page 87]]

    market. That's one of the things the leaders have been interested in, is
    my views on the economy.
        Q. But, sir, since----
        Q. It's the ``R'' word.
        The President. No, I'm optimistic, as I said. My position hasn't
    changed from 3 days ago, or whatever it was, when I commented on this.
        Q. The fact that you're optimistic, that suggests--does that mean
    that you are not going to suggest any change in your tax policy or----
        The President. Look, I'm going to watch very carefully. And we'll
    let you know if I decide one way or the other.

    Middle East Peace Process

        Q. Mr. President, I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about
    what you're hearing from Arab leaders----
        The President. Sorry, Mike [Mike Emanuel, FOX News], I've already
    answered that. Next. [Laughter] No, I'm teasing.
        Q. I'm used to it.
        The President. He actually was a Texas reporter.
        Q. About the Palestinian-Israeli issue, what kind of feedback are
    you hearing?
        Press Secretary Perino. We did cover that
    before you----
        The President. I'll be glad to tell you again. The first question in
    their mind is, one, why do I sound optimistic? Two, are we going to
    spend the time and effort to help move the process? I made it clear to
    them that in order for this to work, they've got to be supportive of the
    Palestinians and make it clear that Israel is an important part of the
    future of the Middle East.
        Q. Do the Arab States recognize Israel? I mean, do they want to--
    have they shown any sign that they want to improve relations with
    Israel?
        The President. I think the fact that they sent major players in
    their administration to Annapolis was a sign. That answers your
    question. And they want to see a deal done, and they want progress
    because the issue frustrates them. As I said earlier, Michael, this
    issue is kind of the touchstone in their mind for a lot of other
    problems in the Middle East; you solve this, then a lot of other
    problems go away. I hope they're right on that. But this is, no
    question, a very important issue, and it's one that--go ahead. I'll be
    glad to go off the record and tell you why now.
        Q. Sir, if I could just follow on that point. I noted that the King
    of Bahrain mentioned the peace process in his statement when he welcomed
    you. We haven't heard similar statements. I understand that they sent
    their representatives. Do you think that many of the Arab leaders are
    still holding back a little bit; they want to see, perhaps, a little
    more progress towards a deal before they're willing to come out and
    start talking about things like recognition of Israel?
        The President. That's an interesting question. First of all, after
    years of disappointment, those of us directly involved in the process
    have a lot of work to try to instill confidence in the people. And I
    think laying back is too strong a word, but I think wondering whether
    this can happen is the right way to put it, Steven Lee.
        They definitely want it to happen. They're willing to send a--in the
    Saudis' case, their Foreign Minister to Annapolis. They are most interested--we spent a lot
    of time on this subject in each stop because they're most interested in
    getting my point of view about how I think the process is going to
    unfold, what are the problems, what can the U.S. do to help, and will we
    be actively involved. They have this great hope that the United States
    involvement will cause the process to be more likely to move forward.
        Q. I want to apologize for our tardiness.
        The President. It's my fault--roadblocks.
        Q. If you covered this, I apologize for that too.

    [[Page 88]]

        The President. Which reminds me of the question, did you get what I
    mouthed to you there?
        Q. I did.
        The President. It was--I thought it was a really interesting
    question.

    President's Visit to Saudi Arabia/Oil Supply

        Q. What do you hope to get out of the King, or what do you hope to
    accomplish with this talk about our economy and the impact of high
    prices?
        The President. Well, first of all is a realization that high energy
    prices can damage consuming economies. It can hurt the economy. And it
    hasn't--it's been--it's affected our families. Don't get me wrong;
    paying more for gasoline hurts some of the American families. And I'll
    make that clear to him. But I also understand the dynamics behind the
    issue, and that is growing demand from U.S., but more particularly,
    China and India, relative to supply.
        Oil is a commodity; it isn't something you just turn a tap. I mean,
    it requires investment, exploration, a lot of capital. I talked to His
    Majesty early on in my
    Presidency in the hopes that they would explore for new fields; they
    have. They've increased their capacity. But in the meantime, demand has
    gone up quite substantially.

    Oil Prices

        Q. Well, do you want him to open the spigot more? Do you want him to
    lower the prices?
        The President. Well, that's the question: What does that mean?
    That's what--I hope that OPEC, if possible, understands that if they
    could put more supply on the market, it would be helpful. But a lot of
    these economies are going--a lot of these oil-producing countries are
    full out.
        Press Secretary Perino. We have time for one
    more on-the-record question. And we will get the transcript to you,
    Peter [Peter Maer, CBS Radio] and Mike, as soon as possible.
        The President. I hope I answered the second way the same way I did
    the first way.
        Q. I'll just ask--[laughter].

    Middle East Peace Process

        Q. I would follow up on that--the security barrier--what I was
    trying to get out of my question was the notion that if----
        The President. You didn't think of it until I said, ``Nice
    question.''
        Q. No, no, no.
        The President. You were coming with this?
        Q. I wanted to ask, but the mike went down, remember. And so I
    didn't get a follow-up.
        The President. I wasn't going to give you a follow-up in front of
    the cameras anyway.
        Q. Fair enough. The question I had is, do you see a day someday when
    some President in the future will come and say to some Israeli leader
    and Palestinian leader that it's time for that wall to come down, not
    unlike Ronald Reagan's----
        The President. You know, I don't think in the short term that day
    will come. I do think there will be a day--your question was not the
    wall; your question was checkpoints, which I guess is the wall.
        Q. I meant barrier, is what I meant, the barrier you drove through--
    --
        The President. Well, barrier--this is not barriers.
        Q. It's the same question, really.
        The President. Well, no, it's not, in all due respect to the
    questioner. It was your question; of course, it's the same question.
    [Laughter]
        Q. What I meant to say was--[laughter].
        The President. Yes, exactly. [Laughter]
        Look, first of all, the state comes into being subject to the
    roadmap, which requires security measures being in place so that the
    Israeli population is comfortable that it's not going to have a state
    that harbors people that want to destroy them. The reason why you
    articulate a vision is to give people inside the Palestinian
    Territories,

    [[Page 89]]

    who don't want violence and who don't want to destroy Israel, a chance
    to be for something. This is how I answered the question.
        The wall is a--was necessary, in the Israelis' minds, to protect
    themselves. It is that sense of security which I hope will give them a
    chance--their politicians a chance to negotiate the deal. The deal
    becomes more security. In other words, it's a series of security
    measures that will eventually cause a state to come into being. And
    whether or not the wall comes down or not, I can't predict that to you,
    Steven Lee. I can tell you, though, there's no such thing as a state if
    it's going to be occupied. In other words, when I said contiguous, that
    means contiguous territory that does not--Swiss cheese, that it's--and I
    thought that's actually what you were referring to with those interior
    roadblocks.
        Q. Thank you.

    Note: The interview was taped at 1:16 p.m. at Nasiriyah Guest Palace. In
    his remarks, the President referred to Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki of
    Iraq; Gen. David H. Petraeus, USA, commanding general, Multi-National
    Force--Iraq; Minister of Foreign Affairs Saud al-Faysal bin Abd al-Aziz
    Al Saud and King Abdallah bin Abd al-Aziz Al Saud of Saudi Arabia; Vice
    Adm. Kevin J. Cosgriff, USN, commander, U.S. Naval Forces Central
    Command, U.S. 5th Fleet, and Combined Maritime Forces; and Cmdr. Jeffrey
    James, USN, commanding officer, USS Hopper. A reporter referred to radio
    personality Don Imus; and King Hamad bin Isa al-Khalifa of Bahrain. A
    tape was not available for verification of the content of this
    interview.