    [Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: George W. Bush (2008, Book I)]
    [January 2, 2008]
    [Pages 1-9]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]

    Interview With Nahum Barnea and Shimon
    Shiffer of Yedioth Ahronoth
    January 2, 2008

    President's Upcoming Visit to Israel/Former Prime Minister Ariel
    Sharon of Israel

        Q. First of all, we would like to thank you very much for your
    readiness to see us and to have this interview for us. We can assure you
    that in Israel, you can be elected for the third term--[laughter]--with
    one exception: The day after the first day in office, the media will
    kill you. [Laughter] This is Israel. But you have so many, really,
    admirers in Israel.
        The President. Well, thank you. I'm really looking forward to going
    again. As you know, this is my first trip as the President. I had the
    honor----
        Q. I saw you. I had the opportunity to shake your hand in the
    Knesset.
        The President. I was thrilled to go in 1998. One of the great
    ironies of my first trip to Israel was that, as well documented, I was
    given a tour of the West Bank by Ariel Sharon. Little did we both
    realize then that we would be sitting together in the hopes of
    constructing peace, that we knew we'd be--we didn't know that we'd be
    President and Prime Minister at the time.
        Q. And yet he was the leader of the opposition at the time.
        The President. Well, he was in the Cabinet. He was a settlements
    man. And we were flying, and it was a very interesting moment. And I can
    remember so well Prime Minister Sharon pointing to a hill, and he said,
    ``This is where I engaged as a young tank officer, my first battle, and
    see how far it is to our capital and our civilization.'' In other words,
    it was--his purpose was to make it clear to me the strategic issues
    facing Israel. And then we flew over the West Bank, and it was a
    fascinating moment.
        And it was--history works in odd ways, and sometimes you're never
    sure about the twists and turns that life will bring. And so I'm looking
    forward to meeting with the

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    Sharon family and express my admiration for a man with whom I was able
    to----
        Q. Two years from today he had his stroke.
        The President. Yes, 2 years to this day.
        Q. Today, today.
        The President. Anyway, it will be an interesting moment for me, to
    express my sympathies to his family. He was an interesting man, and
    anyway, I'm looking forward to going to see the current leadership in
    Israel as well as the Palestinians and the Arab region.

    President's Upcoming Visit to Israel

        Q. Could we ask--could we start asking questions?
        The President. Please, yes.
        Q. Your visit to Israel, what is the vision you would like to convey
    to the Israeli public?
        The President. The vision is, one, that I fully understand that the
    world is confronting extremists--the world must confront extremists who
    want to impose their ideology on peaceful people by the use of terror;
    and that we're engaged in an ideological struggle that requires resolve
    and vision; and that the best way to defeat the ideology of hate is with
    an ideology of hope, and that is manifested in a society based upon
    liberty; that the two-state solution is in Israel's long-term security
    interests, and that there's hard work to be done by the leaders of the
    Palestinians and the Israelis.
        I will also assure Israel that there is no way that a Israeli
    democracy can accept a terrorist state on her border; that there is a
    way--and I'm optimistic that there are enough Palestinians committed to
    a state based upon liberty--that we can achieve--that they can achieve,
    with U.S. help, the vision of two states side by side in peace.

    Iran

        Q. Mr. President, the Israeli people are worried, first and
    foremost, because of the danger that Iran will acquire nuclear weapons.
    Can you, Mr. President, assure the Israelis that such a danger will
    never occur under your watch?
        The President. Well, I can assure the people of Israel and others in
    the Middle East that an Iran with a nuclear weapon would be a danger to
    world peace. I have said so very explicitly. I believe that the--and I
    believe we have put in place a system that encourages pressure on the
    Iranians to come up with--to either have a choice between isolation and
    financial difficulty or a rational approach to what they claim is their
    sovereign right, which is the ability to have nuclear power.
        Now, they have been untrustworthy; they have been unwilling to be
    transparent and open. And so our demands are to the Iranians, not only
    with our voice, but the voice of the international community thus far,
    is, you must be transparent; you must be open; and you--because of your
    failure to report programs, that you cannot be trusted with the ability
    to learn how to enrich. And so my message to the Israeli people is, I
    fully understand the threat, that we spend a lot of time on this issue,
    and that we will continue to exert maximum pressure through the
    international community to peacefully resolve this issue.
        Q. I'm sure you've heard the report by the American intelligence----
        The President. Yes, I have. [Laughter]
        Q. Unfortunately for us, we followed it too. How it affected the
    chances to stop Iran from becoming a danger?
        The President. Actually, if you study the report carefully, it
    basically said--not basically--it said that Iran had a secret program--
    --
        Q. In the year 2003.
        The President. Right. But my message to the American people was--is
    that a nontransparent society that had a program could easily have
    another program. And therefore, the intensity of the effort must not
    decline, but must stay strong--and the intensity of the effort being to
    prevent them from developing the know-how.

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        Secondly, there are three stages to the development of a nuclear
    weapon: one, materials out of which to make a weapon--that's why we've
    got to stop them from enriching, and that's where our focus is; two, the
    ability to take materials and to make it into a warhead or a bomb--and
    we don't know their capacities at this point in time, but it's fairly
    general knowledge on how to produce a weapon out of materials; and
    three, rockets. Well, two of the three continue to exist. And therefore,
    to say a weapons program does not exist is not the complete truth. And
    so our focus is to prevent the one thing over which we believe the
    international community can have influence, which is to stop the
    capacity to enrich.
        Thirdly, the report did say that as a result of pressures, the
    Iranians suspended their military program. Well, if pressures worked in
    the past, my hope is that pressures will work in the future. Part of the
    reason I'm going to the Middle East is to make it abundantly clear to
    nations in that part of the world that we view Iran as a threat, and
    that the NIE in no way lessens that threat, but in fact, clarifies the
    threat.

    Middle East Peace Process/Iran

        Q. If Israel comes with a smoking gun during the year 2008, are you
    going to back an Israeli operation--military operation?
        The President. My message to all in the region is, I believe we can
    solve this diplomatically and that pressure must work. I have said, of
    course, that the United States keeps all options on the table. That's
    the United States policy. And that--but I believe the best solution is
    going to be one that encourages Iranian isolation through international
    pressures that will cause the Iranians to have to make a strategic
    choice. Now, people say: ``Well, what do you mean by that? What kind of
    pressures?'' Well, there are financial pressures that we have exerted
    and will continue to work with others to exert.
        Now, look, I readily recognize that one of the real challenges is to
    convince people that peace is more important than market share, that
    achieving long-term peace in the Middle East is more important than
    someone's companies having a share of equipment----
        Q. American or----
        The President. Well, I'm saying any company. Of course, American
    companies are not involved with the exportation of goods and services to
    Iran. Therefore, in this case, I mean, the logic would say that extends
    to not only European countries but countries from around the world. Same
    with financial institutions, that we expect there to be significant
    pressure placed upon Iranian financial institutions, particularly those
    that are known to be involved in proliferation.
        And so the strategy is more than just words; it is an action-
    oriented strategy, aimed at convincing people inside of Iran that
    there's a better way forward. If you look at my speeches or listen to my
    speeches, you'll notice that I constantly speak to the Iranian people
    and make it clear to them that the isolation that they're now suffering
    and the economic deprivation that is occurring as a result of isolation
    is a result of their Government's decisions. Our beef is not with the
    Iranian people, our beef is with a Government that has hidden the
    program.
        And by the way, back to the NIE very quickly. The international
    response ought to be that, okay, whether or not you agree with the NIE
    or not, at least recognize that they had a program at one point in time,
    and demand that Iran explain it. We shouldn't be trying to explain why
    we know what we know. We ought to be focusing on the Iranians to say,
    you tell us why you had a program; you tell us about the--if you want to
    be an international player, it's up to you to explain.

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    U.S. Foreign Policy

        Q. Mr. President, I'll try to put the question another way. If the
    Israeli Prime Minister will present you with a smoking gun and will tell
    you, look, we can't live with such a threat, and we'll destroy the
    Iranian nuclear sites, you will support Israel? You will give Israel--
    you will let Israel to do so?
        The President. The policy of the United States is to solve this
    diplomatically.

    Prime Minister Ehud Olmert of Israel/Middle East
    Peace Process/President's Upcoming Visit to Israel

        Q. You know, Israel is--Israeli people are confused regarding our
    own Government. There is now a big discussion in Israel regarding the
    blunders of the second Lebanon war. And at the same time, you are
    familiar with the September 6th--whatever happens there, we don't know;
    I'm sure you know. Can you tell us what is your impression of the, I
    would say, of the way the Israeli Government is handling our own
    military?
        The President. I can only tell you about my personal relationship
    with Prime Minister Olmert. That's the person with whom I have spent the
    most time. I, of course, see the Foreign Minister or the Defense Minister at
    meetings, but my time is spent with Prime Minister Olmert. I trust him,
    I like him, and I think he's a man of strength.
        Prime Minister Olmert, first of all, one thing I look for is, I look
    for vision. Can somebody see a hopeful future? A lot of times in the--
    this complicated world in which we live, we stay so focused on the
    moment that it's hard to see a vision that reaches beyond the immediate.
    And so when I talk to Prime Minister Olmert, I listen very carefully
    about his vision for the future because what we're talking about at
    Annapolis is vision, is giving people something to be for, something to
    hope for.
        The whole purpose of our discussions at Annapolis has been to
    advance what a state would look like. The state is subject to the
    roadmap, the obligations of both sides before the state can come into
    being; it's subject to the roadmap. But there's got to be a vision
    because a vision is inspirational, a vision is hopeful. There's got to
    be something that the Palestinians can say, if--``Here's what we're for.
    Therefore, let us renounce our desire to destroy Israel; let us
    recognize that it must exist as a neighbor. So support us.'' I believe
    there's enough people in the Palestinian Territories who are sick of the
    failures of the past, sick of broken promise. And yet they have yet to
    have something specifically defined around which they can rally. That's
    the purpose.
        And so when I talk to Prime Minister Olmert, I listen very carefully
    to whether or not he's able to think beyond the moment. And I've come to
    the conclusion that, yes, he is a man of vision. He understands the
    significance of defining a hopeful state. And it's hopeful not just for
    the Palestinians, but it's hopeful for Israel as well. After all, he ran
    on a platform that said--now, this is a major shift in Israeli policy;
    it started with Ariel Sharon, as you know--
    which is two states, based upon the premise that liberty will bring
    peace. Now, of course, his concern is that the imposition of a state
    before certain conditions have been met--that's why I say, ``subject to
    the roadmap.'' And the United States, as I said early, recognizes that
    there cannot be a state that harbors the desire to destroy its neighbor.
    No government can accept that, and I understand that.
        And so I trust Olmert. His----
        Q. Do you?
        The President. I do trust him.
        Q. You trust Olmert, period?
        The President. I trust him. I hope--hopefully, he'll say the same
    about me. Hopefully--you see, one of the things in politics that happens
    often is, people sometimes won't tell you really what's on their mind.
    It happens here in America. For example, you'll have politicians walk in
    the

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    Oval Office and say, ``Hey, President, I'm with you.'' And then all of a
    sudden, the heat gets on--[laughter]--and it turns out, they're not with
    you.
        Q. You feel it at your back.
        The President. Yes. Well, I feel--and I've had enough conversations,
    heart-to-heart conversations with the Prime Minister. I understand
    Israeli politics is very complicated. It's tough. It is full-contact
    karate. [Laughter] And----
        Q. Not unlike American----
        The President. Not really. Not really. Because the President is--
    even though we've got our politics and even though I've got tough
    relations at times with Congress, the President sets foreign policy. He
    is constantly worried about a coalition. And I understand that. I
    understand the difficulty he faces. But in spite of those difficulties,
    I'm interested in strategic visions based upon peace. And I firmly
    believe he has that vision. And obviously, he's going to have to work
    his way through the Israeli politics, and he's going to have to be
    mindful of what's happening elsewhere.
        And the United States, by the way, can help both parties. That's why
    I'm going, to help boost the confidence of both parties to reach out for
    a vision. And by the way, the trip is more than just going to Israel and
    the Palestinian Territories. I'm also going to the Arab world for two
    reasons. One is to convince the Arab nations that Israel is a partner--
    should be a partner in peace; that this vision is in the interests not
    only of Israel and Palestinians, but it's in the interests of the Arab
    world.
        Q. You expect to achieve something tangible?
        The President. Well, we achieved something very tangible. Look, you
    got to understand that in a matter as complicated as this issue, that it
    requires a lot of diligence and a lot of time and a lot of effort. There
    was a major breakthrough at Annapolis when the Israeli Prime Minister
    and the Palestinian President
    addressed a roomful of diplomats, high-ranking officials from the Middle
    East, as well as the rest of the world. And so now we must follow up on
    that success. In other words, they were in the room listening very
    carefully to the visions of both nations. And the American President can
    help move the process forward by reminding friends and allies in the
    Middle East about the importance of the two-state solution and what they
    can do to help.
        And the third thing, of course, is to spend time talking about the
    strategic implications of a U.S. presence in a way that bolsters
    governments and, at the same time, helps serve as a bulwark against
    aggressive regimes such as Iran. And so it's a multifaceted agenda that
    I'm really looking forward to carrying on there in the Middle East.

    Middle East Peace Process

        Q. But still, Mr. President, do you see a chance to sign a
    comprehensive peace agreement between Israel and the----
        The President. Yes, I do, before I leave.
        Q. Before you leave?
        The President. Yes, I do. I do. I'm an optimistic guy.
        Q. ----by initials or by full execution?
        The President. Well, first of all--no. First of all, the--I envision
    Israel and Palestine sitting down at a table, signing--this is what a
    state would look like, subject to the roadmap. There's work to be done.
        Q. And concluding an agreement?
        The President. On what the state would look like, absolutely. Yes, I
    do. I think it can happen. And I believe both parties want it to happen.
    Now, they got work to do, and one of the reasons I'm going is to remind
    them of the work they got to do. See, people say to me, ``All you got to
    do is go over there and say--impose the solution.'' No, we want the
    solution to last. This has got to be negotiated in good faith, and it's
    hard work. Both leaders have got constituencies they've got to deal
    with, skeptical publics. And I believe the U.S.

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    President can help keep the process moving, and that's what my trip is
    all about.

    Israeli Settlements/Middle East Peace Process

        Q. Unauthorized settlement, it is something which--an issue which is
    between the United States and Israel for a long time.
        The President. Yes, we expect them to honor their commitments. The
    Israeli Government has said that they're going to get rid of
    unauthorized settlements, and that's what we expect. That's what we've
    been told.
        Q. Not before you come, you know.
        The President. Well, that will be on the--that will, of course, be
    an agenda item. But Prime Minister--both Prime
    Ministers with whom I have worked understand our
    position. Both have agreed, by the way, of unauthorized settlements.
        Q. They agree?
        The President. Both understand, as well, that I said conditions on
    the ground, the realities of the situation will help determine what a--
    the borders look like. And so I have made some--at least from what the
    U.S. perspective looks like--some statements that will help move the
    process forward. But the unauthorized settlements, which is different
    from authorized settlements, is an issue we've been very clear on. But
    I've also made statements on the settlements as well.
        As I said, realities on the ground will help define the border--the
    eventual border of what the Palestinian state will look like. And the
    state will come into being subject to the conditions set out in the
    roadmap, which means we've got a lot of work to do. One of the things
    I'll be doing is visiting with Tony Blair there
    in order to make--to catch up on what he is doing to help the
    Palestinians. Look, developing a state out of--is difficult. There's got
    to be institutions that provide stability, and it's hard to do.
        That's what happening in Iraq. It's hard to go from dictatorship,
    like they had in Iraq, to one in which there is solid institutions that
    will enable a democracy to survive. I have come to the conclusion that
    it's absolutely necessary work for the sake of peace because if we're in
    an ideological struggle, the only way to defeat the ideology that preys
    upon fear and hate is through the development of societies that respond
    to the will of the people. And democracies--it turns out, democracies
    throughout our history tend not to fight each other because democracies
    respond to the will of the people, and most people do not want war and
    bloodshed and violence. Most people just want to live a normal, peaceful
    life.
        I tell the American people all the time that Iraqi mothers want the
    same thing for their children that American mothers want for theirs, a
    place for their child to grow up and get a good education and be able to
    realize dreams. Same thing for the Palestinian mothers and the Israeli
    mothers. There's a commonality there, and yet, unfortunately, in the
    world in which we live today, there are people who simply do not like
    the idea of societies based upon the will of the people and will use
    violence to stop the advance of freedom. And it's not just in the
    Palestinian Territories that you find the violence, you find it in
    Lebanon, you find it in Iraq, you find it in Afghanistan, you find it in
    Pakistan.
        Q. You find it in Gaza.
        The President. Yes. You find people who will kill innocent life to
    stop the advance of freedom, which should call the world to--should
    cause the world to rally. If killers want to stop liberty, it should be
    a clear signal to all of us that we must do everything we can to advance
    liberty. And one of the things I find very hopeful about a Palestinian
    state is that many in the world want to help the Palestinians develop
    institutions and stability. And I--President Abbas and Prime Minister Fayyad
    are committed to the development of a state. They need a lot of help.
    And one of the things we can provide help for--besides some

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    practical help on organizing their security forces and obviously to
    encourage investment--is to--there's got to be a vision, see. People
    have got to be for something. And that's where we're trying to take the
    process over the next year.

    Iraq/U.S. Foreign Policy/President's Decisionmaking

        Q. Mr. President, you just mentioned Iraq. Can you clarify to us
    whether there was any Israeli involvement in your decision to invade
    Iraq?
        The President. No, not at all, none whatsoever. My decision was
    based upon U.S. intelligence, based upon the desire to provide security
    for our peoples and others. It was based upon my willingness to work
    with the international community on this issue. Remember, if you look
    back at the history, there was a unanimous vote in the Security Council:
    disclose, disarm, or face serious consequences. And when he defied, when
    he refused to allow the inspectors in, when he made a statement by his
    actions that he didn't really care what the international community
    said, that I decided to make sure words meant something.
        And so I acted based upon our own security interests. And--but it
    also fit into this notion of--and remember, Zarqawi--there was some
    terrorist connections, not with the 9/11 attacks, but terrorist
    connections. Abu Nidal, he had been using--he'd been funding families of
    suicide bombers. In other words, as far as we were concerned, he had
    weapons of mass destruction, which could have been used in a deadly way.
    It turns out, he didn't have the weapons, but he had the know-how on how
    to make weapons, which could easily have been reconstituted. The
    sanctions regime turns out to have been corrupt and wasn't working. In
    other words, there's a variety of aspects to my decision, all of which
    were aimed at making sure that U.S. security, first and foremost, was
    enhanced.
        National Security Council Press Secretary Gordon Johndroe. One last question.

    2008 Presidential Election

        Q. You follow the primaries now, in America.
        The President. Yes. [Laughter]
        Q. We wonder if there is a moment when you tell yourself, wow, why
    can't I join the fray?
        The President. That's interesting.
        Q. I can do it better. [Laughter]
        The President. No, no, I appreciate that question. It's a very
    interesting question. I believe strongly that democracies are enhanced
    by change--by the peaceful change of government. And as much as I'll
    miss being President--and there will be a lot of aspects I'll miss about
    it--it is in our Nation's interests that there be a healthy debate and
    that the process move on. And so I'm realistic about what's going to
    happen this year.
        You know, I loved campaigning. We were reminiscing at the ranch this
    weekend--Laura and I and some friends were--about
    how exciting Presidential campaigns can be. And I also understand how
    grueling they can be. This is a time of high anxiety for campaigns and
    candidates as they come in the final day of the Iowa caucuses. I can
    remember distinctly what it felt like campaigning in these States----
        Q. In the snow.
        The President. ----in the snow--on the last day. And so there's a
    lot of excitement to it. But I'm very comfortable about this year. We've
    got a lot to do. We've got a lot to do domestically and a lot to do
    internationally. I fully understand there's going to be a lot of focus
    on the Presidential primaries and the Presidential general election,
    which is good. There ought to be a healthy debate. In the meantime,
    however, I am not going to allow domestic politics to get in the way of
    implementing a vision, of doing--laying that foundation for peace, one
    of the things history will look back on.

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    President's Legacy

        Q. When you are talking about vision, Mr. President--and this will
    be our last question--how do you wish to be remembered in world history?
        The President. Well, first of all, I'll be dead before the true
    history of the Bush administration is written. Here in the Oval Office,
    there are portraits of two Presidents, George Washington and Abraham
    Lincoln. In the past couple of years, I have read extensive analyses of
    both of those men's Presidencies. My attitude is that it's going to take
    a while for objective historians to realize the contributions that this
    administration has made to peace.
        Q. Like Harry Truman's legacy, which developed.
        The President. Well, each President has his own set of circumstances
    with which to deal. I would hope that people, when they look back at
    this administration, would say that President Bush and his
    administration worked diligently to protect the American people from
    harm; that he recognized the threats of the 21st century; that he acted
    in a--when he needed to be tough, he acted strong, and when he needed to
    have vision, he understood the power of freedom to be transformative.
        Our foreign policy is more than just confronting terrorists. Our
    foreign policy is to confront the conditions that enable these
    ideologues to recruit, such as HIV/AIDS on the continent of Africa or
    feeding the hungry or dealing with malaria. Our foreign policy is based
    upon our great trust in the capacity of the common person to dictate a
    peaceful course for government. But just so you know, I fully understand
    I'll be long gone before the accurate history of this administration is
    reflected in the history books.
        Q. In our country, you won't have to wait so long.
        The President. Well, I don't worry about it, sir. I just really
    don't. It's such an honor to be the President. You betray the office if
    you get so caught up in your own personal--your personal standing. I
    remind people that the President should--must understand, like in the
    Middle East, that the conditions must be ripe for people to go for peace
    and that you cannot force peace based upon a President's calendar. You
    can use the calendar by saying to the parties, you know this guy, you
    know his vision; now is the time for you to come to conclusion. But a
    President must never try to force others to accept something that they
    themselves don't want to accept because there will be--it won't last.
        Now, we can work hard, and I believe the time is ripe; that's what
    I'm trying to say to you. We've got leaders who have made commitments to
    a vision. They have both told me and told each other, we are committed.
    And these men know me. And so I believe--to answer your question--yes,
    there will be a comprehensive peace signed by the end of this year,
    because if they're committed, like they say they are--and I believe they
    are, and I believe their people, the majority of the people want there
    to be peace--now is the time to move.
        Anyway.
        Mr. Johndroe. Thanks, guys.

    Note: The interview was taped at 9:55 a.m. in the Oval Office at the
    White House. In his remarks, the President referred to Deputy Prime
    Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs Tzipora ``Tzipi'' Livni and
    Minister of Defense Ehud Barak of Israel; President Mahmoud Abbas and
    Prime Minister Salam Fayyad of the Palestinian Authority; and former
    Prime Minister Tony Blair of the United Kingdom, Quartet Representative
    in the Middle East. The transcript was released by the Office of the
    Press Secretary on January 4. A tape was not available for verification
    of the content of this interview.

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