    [Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: George W. Bush (2008, Book I)]
    [May 18, 2008]
    [Pages 701-706]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]

    Interview With Richard Engel of NBC News in
    Sharm el-Sheikh
    May 18, 2008

        Mr. Engel. Mr. President, thank you very much for joining me.
        The President. Richard. Thank you, sir.

    President's Remarks at the Knesset in Jerusalem, Israel

        Mr. Engel. In front of the Israeli parliament, the Knesset, you said
    that negotiating with Iran is pointless. And then you went further, you
    saying--you said that it was appeasement. Were you referring to Senator
    Barack Obama? He certainly thought you were.
        The President. You know, my policies haven't changed, but evidently
    the political calendar has. People need to read the speech. You didn't
    get it exactly right ei-ther. What I said was, is that we need to take
    the words of people seriously. And when, you know, a leader of Iran says
    that they want to destroy Israel, you got to take those words seriously.
    And if you don't take them seriously, then it harkens back to a day when
    we didn't take other words seriously.
        It was fitting that I talked about not taking the words of Adolph
    Hitler seriously on the floor of the Knesset. But I also talked about
    the need to defend Israel, the need to not negotiate with the likes of
    Al Qaida and Hizballah and Hamas, and the need to make sure Iran doesn't
    get a nuclear weapon. It was a--but I also talked about a vision of
    what's possible in the Middle East.

    [[Page 702]]

    Iran

        Mr. Engel. Repeatedly, you've talked about Iran and that you don't
    want to see Iran develop a nuclear weapon.
        The President. Yes.
        Mr. Engel. How far away do you think Iran is from developing a
    nuclear capability?
        The President. You know, Richard, I don't want to speculate, and
    there's a lot of speculation. But one thing is for certain: We need to
    prevent them from learning how to enrich uranium. And I have made it
    clear to the Iranians that there is a seat at the table for them if they
    would verifiably suspend their enrichment. And if not, we'll continue to
    rally the world to isolate them.

    U.S. Foreign Policy/Iran

        Mr. Engel. You've been rallying the world. Have you had some success
    on this Arab tour to try and--and Israeli tour--to mobilize this
    community against Iran? Is that part of your mission?
        The President. No, it's not so much; actually, the place where I'm
    spending time, in terms of dealing with serious economic isolation, is
    with our European friends. They're the ones who have had significant
    trade with the Iranians. We're dealing with it not only in goods and
    services, trying to convince them to hold back goods and services until
    there's a verifiable suspension, but also dealing with the Iranian
    finances.
        I don't have to spend too much time in the world--in this part of
    the world creating concerns about Iran. There is big concern about Iran,
    given the fact that Hizballah is destabilizing Lebanon, Hamas is trying
    to prevent the creation of a Palestinian state, and, of course, Iranian
    action inside of Iraq.

    Iraq/Iran

        Mr. Engel. A lot of Iran's empowerment is a result of the war in
    Iraq. How do you feel----
        The President. Yes.
        Mr. Engel. ----that Iran is--its position in the world is rising
    because of your actions in Iraq?
        The President. See, I'm not so sure I agree with that. That's a
    premise I don't necessarily agree with. As a matter of fact, I think
    Iran is troubled by the fact that a young democracy is growing in Iraq.
    I--you know, this notion about somehow if Saddam Hussein were in power,
    everything would be fine in the Middle East is a ludicrous notion.
    Saddam Hussein was a sponsor of terror. And can you imagine what it'd be
    like to see an arms race between Saddam Hussein and Ahmadi-
    nejad, in terms of creating instability
    in the Middle East? As a matter of fact, the way to ultimately defeat
    those who use terror to destabilize young democracies is to help the
    young democracies succeed.

    Progress in Iraq

        Mr. Engel. I've watched Iran's influence grow in Iraq. It's been
    very steady over the years. What are you going to do to try and
    counteract----
        The President. Yes.
        Mr. Engel. ----Iran's influence?
        The President. Well, Basra, for example, is--we stood by the Prime
    Minister's decision to move into Basra and
    to--continue to encourage the Prime Minister to go after Shi'a criminals
    and Shi'a armed militias that are doing harm to the average Iraqi and,
    at the same time, encourage him to use some of the Iraqi wealth to
    improve conditions of life. And that's what's happening. Basra is--it's
    still obviously got work to be done, but it was a successful operation,
    as you know better than me. He's now heading into Sadr City--he, the
    Iraqi Government--all aiming to protect innocent people from people who
    are operating outside the law. And to the extent that those are folks
    who are supported by Iran, it will serve as a defeat to Iran.
        Iraq is changing. You know it better than anybody; you've been
    spending a lot of time there. And it's in the interest of the

    [[Page 703]]

    United States that we help it continue to change to the better.

    Freedom Agenda/Iran

        Mr. Engel. You talked about Iran being a major threat to American
    policies in the region, with Hamas, Hizballah, militia groups in Iraq.
    Do you intend to finish your term in office with a military action of
    some kind against Iran?
        The President. Richard, that's highly speculative. I've always made
    it clear that options are on the table. But, you know, the biggest
    weapon we have against those who can't stand freedom is the advance of
    freedom. I'm going to give a speech here in a minute that talks about
    the need to advance the freedom agenda in the Middle East.
        And my--you know, Iran is a threat to people who want to live in
    peace. That's what they've clearly shown. I mean, the interesting thing
    in Lebanon is that Hizballah, which had sold itself as a protector
    against Israel, all of a sudden turned its weapons on the people of
    Lebanon and all the--the true colors. And sometimes in life there needs
    to be clarity in order for people to rally to solve a problem.
        And so the best way to deal with the Iranians in the Middle East is
    to help the young democracy of Lebanon survive, is to stand up a
    Palestinian state--obviously, subject to the roadmap--which we intend to
    do before my Presidency, and succeed in Iraq.

    Lebanon

        Mr. Engel. How are you going to prevent Hizballah from taking over
    in Lebanon? They had a small coup. The army didn't do anything. And they
    proved that they are clearly in control of the streets when they want to
    be.
        The President. Yes. Well, that's a problem. And obviously, one thing
    to do is to help strengthen the Lebanese Army, which I sent General
    Dempsey to Beirut--I don't know if he was
    there when you were there, but he was there precisely to help inventory
    the Lebanese Army--is to make it clear to Prime Minister
    Siniora, we stand strongly with you. We'll see
    what happens out of this agreement and how--whether it sticks or not.
    But we strongly support the March 14th Coalition.
        Perhaps one way to help deal with the situation is to get the U.N.
    tribunal up and running that's investigating the death of Mr. Hariri.
    But you know, no question, it's a tough situation. It's not as if
    Lebanon has been a stable situation forever either. I mean, this is--and
    yet the Lebanese people deserve a peaceful democracy, and our aim is to
    help them.

    President's Remarks at the Knesset in Jerusalem

        Mr. Engel. It sounded like, when you were addressing the Israeli
    Knesset, you gave a green light to Israel to take action against
    Hizballah and Hamas.
        The President. I don't--Richard, you can read into it what you want
    to read into it. That certainly wasn't my intention. My intention was to
    say that all of us need to understand that radical groups are the threat
    to peace, whether it be Al Qaida or Hamas or Hizballah.

    Iran

        Mr. Engel. Negotiations with Iran--is that appeasement? Is that
    like----
        The President. No.
        Mr. Engel. ----appeasing Adolph Hitler?
        The President. My position, Richard, all along has been that if the
    Iranians verifiably suspend their enrichment, which will be a key
    measure to stop them from gaining the know-how to build a weapon, then
    we--they can come to the table, and the United States will be at the
    table. That's been a position of my administration for, gosh, I can't
    remember how many years, but it's a clear position. We've stated it over
    and over again.
        But I've also said that if they choose not to do that--verifiably
    suspend--we will

    [[Page 704]]

    continue to rally the world to isolate the Iranians. And it is having an
    effect inside their country. There's a better way forward for the
    Iranian people than to be isolated, and their leaders just need to make
    better choices.

    U.S. Troop Levels in Iraq

        Mr. Engel. In Iraq, I recently met a soldier. He was medevaced out
    on his first tour. He's now back on his second tour--was already
    medevaced to the green zone. How many more tours do these soldiers have
    to do? Is there an exit strategy for Iraq?
        The President. Well, first of all, the fact that this person
    volunteered again speaks to the great bravery of our troops. And we need
    to honor them and will honor them. And one way to do so is to have more
    set tours: in for 12, out for 12.
        The other thing is to take care of their families, and when they're
    veterans, take care of the vets. You know, the fact that you told me
    about a guy who got medevaced twice only says to me that we've got a
    courageous military.
        In terms of success, we're returning troops on success. You might
    remember, I had to make a difficult choice to put more troops in. Those
    troops are coming home by July. And then, of course, General
    Petraeus and his successor will assess the
    situation on the ground, and we will end up having the troops necessary
    to help the Iraqis succeed.

    U.S. Troop Levels in Iraq/Progress in Iraq

        Mr. Engel. So it doesn't sound like there's an end anytime soon. It
    just sounds like we need to support them as much as we can and keep them
    there for as long as we can.
        The President. I think the end, Richard, is, I told you, return on
    success. The more successful Iraq is, the fewer troops we'll need. And
    there's no question, Iraq is becoming successful. The security situation
    has changed; the political situation is a lot better; the economic
    situation--unlike other parts of this world--are pretty strong. And now
    the question is, are they going to be able to get the resources in an
    efficient way to the people, so the people see the benefits of
    democracy? And they're doing a better job of that.

    Progress in Iraq

        Mr. Engel. You still view Iraq as a success. Because on the ground,
    it looks very bleak. People still want to leave the country, and people
    are----
        The President. Well, that's interesting you said that. That's a
    little different from the surveys I've seen and a little different from
    the attitude of the actual Iraqis I've talked to, but you're entitled to
    your opinion.
        Mr. Engel. The Iraqi Government, I think, has one position, which is
    that it's seeing a lot of progress. But Sadr City has been up in revolt.
    There's major battles in Mosul. I was just in a major firefight in Sadr
    City, hit by an EFP. It is still very much a war zone.
        The President. Richard, no question, it's violent. But there's no
    question that the Iraqi Government are dealing with the violent people.
    It's like this attitude about Basra. I can remember, you know, a good
    reporter saying, ``Basra is a disaster.'' I'm not suggesting you did,
    but people said, ``It's a disaster.'' And lo and behold, it wasn't; it
    was successful.
        What you're watching is an Iraqi Government take care of extremists
    in their midst so that a democracy can survive. And it's essential that
    this democracy survive for our own security as well as the stability of
    the Middle East.

    Middle East Peace Process/Lebanon

        Mr. Engel. You've talked about having a Israeli-Palestinian peace
    agreement by the end of this year.
        The President. Right.
        Mr. Engel. What gives you hope that that is not overly ambitious?
    Why do you think that's possible?

    [[Page 705]]

        The President. Because, first of all, people in Israel understand
    that in order for them to have long-term security, there has to be a
    democratic state. People in Palestine want a democratic state. Now,
    there are people opposing that--Hamas, in particular--trying to create
    the violence and fear to stop the state from progressing.
        Secondly, I know their leaders. I spent a lot of time with Prime
    Minister Olmert and President Abbas. They are dedicated to doing the hard
    work.
        And thirdly, I've seen the progress being made on issues like----
        Mr. Engel. What about Hamas? Hamas was elected----
        The President. Excuse me for a minute, please--on issues like the
    border and refugees and security. And yes, Hamas was elected, and
    they've done a disaster in--of running Gaza. And there will be an
    interesting contrast between the vision of Hamas and their record and
    the vision of President Abbas
    and Prime Minister Fayyad and the Palestinian
    state. And it's that vision, the competing visions that will be put
    forth to the Palestinian people at some time.
        And I believe a state will exist, and I know it's necessary for
    peace in the Middle East. And I think--I feel good that we can get it
    defined during my Presidency and implemented subject to roadmap.

    Freedom Agenda/Al Qaida

        Mr. Engel. Going back to your vision and the message you've been
    pushing about democracy and supporting moderates across the region, if
    you look back over the last several years, the Middle East that you'll
    be handing over to the next President has--is deeply problematic. You
    have Hamas in power, Hizballah empowered, taking to the streets, more--
    stronger than the Government, Iran empowered, Iraq still at war. What
    region----
        The President. Richard.
        Mr. Engel. ----are you handing over?
        The President. Richard, those folks were always around; they were
    here. What we're handing over is a Middle East that, one, recognizes the
    problems--and the world recognizes them. There's clarity as to what the
    problems are. To say all of a sudden that Hamas showed up is just not
    factual. They have been around, and they have been dangerous. Hizballah
    has been around, and they are dangerous. They have been--that's why we
    put them on the terrorist list before my Presidency.
        And what you're beginning to see is new democracies. You'll see a
    Palestinian state. You'll see a--Iraq emerging. And it doesn't happen
    overnight. The freedom movement is not a instant. The freedom movement
    is a challenge to a system that said, the status quo is acceptable, when
    underneath was brewing all kinds of resentments.
        We've taken on Al Qaida in the Middle East. It was from here that
    they recruited people to launch attacks. And while they're still
    existing, they've been hurt. And they're going to be hurt even more as
    liberty advances and freedom advances.

    Al Qaida/Iran

        Mr. Engel. Do you believe that Iran is now more of a threat in Iraq
    than Al Qaida?
        The President. You know, that's an interesting question. I believe--
    yes, I bet--I think they've both been seriously hurt in Iraq. And you
    know, Al Qaida thought they were going to have a stronghold in Anbar
    Province. They proudly proclaimed this was going to be their capital
    from which they were going to launch missions around the world and
    throughout the region, and they failed.
        And in Iran [Iraq], * Shi'a groups funded by Iran have tried to take
    on the Government. And the Government is succeeding, and it's--but it's
    going to take a while.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        * White House correction.

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    [[Page 706]]

    War on Terror/Freedom Agenda

        Mr. Engel. The war on terrorism has been the centerpiece of your
    Presidency. Many people say that it has not made the world safer, that
    it has created more radicals, that there are more people in this part of
    the world who want to attack the United States.
        The President. Yes. That theory says, by confronting the people that
    killed us, therefore, there's going to be more; therefore, we shouldn't
    confront them.
        Mr. Engel. Or creating more people who want to kill us, one could
    also say.
        The President. Well, you can say that, but the truth of the matter
    is, there's fewer Al Qaida leaders; the people are on the run; they're
    having more trouble recruiting in the Middle East. Saudi Arabia, our
    partner, has gone after Al Qaida. People now see Al Qaida for what it
    is, which is a group of extremists and radicals who preach nothing but
    hate. And no, I just--it's just the beehive theory. We should have just
    let the beehive sit there and hope the bees don't come out of the hive.
        My attitude is, the United States must stay on the offense against
    Al Qaida--two ways. One from----
        Mr. Engel. But haven't you just smashed the bees----
        The President. ----two ways----
        Mr. Engel. ----in the hive and let them spread?
        The President. Excuse me for a minute, Richard, two ways: One, find
    them and bring them to justice--what we're doing; and two, offer freedom
    as an alternative to their vision. And somehow to suggest that bees
    would stay in the hive is naive. They didn't stay in the hive when they
    came and killed 3,000 of our citizens.
        Mr. Engel. Thank you very much for your time, Mr. President.
        The President. Yes, sir. Yes.
        Mr. Engel. Thank you.

    Note: The interview was taped at 2:02 p.m. at the Hyatt Regency Sharm El
    Sheikh for later broadcast. In his remarks, the President referred to
    President Mahmud Ahmadi-nejad of Iran; Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki of
    Iraq; Lt. Gen. Martin E. Dempsey, USA, acting commander, U.S. Central
    Command; Prime Minister Fuad Siniora of Lebanon; Gen. David H. Petraeus,
    USA, commanding general, Multi-National Force--Iraq; Prime Minister Ehud
    Olmert of Israel; and President Mahmoud Abbas and Prime Minister Salam
    Fayyad of the Palestinian Authority. The transcript was released by the
    Office of the Press Secretary on May 19.