[Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: George W. Bush (2005, Book II)]
[June 29, 2005]
[Pages 1183-1189]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]



Interview With the United Kingdom's ITV
June 29, 2005

Prime Minister Blair/Iraq/G-8

    Sir Trevor McDonald. Mr. President, the G-8 summit will be chaired 
by Tony Blair. He wants to get new international agreements on aid, on 
trade, and on climate change. Now, he gave you unstinting support over 
the war in Iraq; can he expect the same support from you over the G-8?
    The President. You know, Tony Blair made decisions on what he 
thought was best for the people of Great Britain, and I made decisions 
on what I thought was best for Americans. And I really don't view our 
relationship as one of quid pro quo. I view our relationship as one of 
strong allies and friends working together for the common good.
    Having said that, I bring a strong record of support for countries 
in Africa. I think people are going to be surprised to learn about all 
the efforts we've made here in America to clean up our environment and 
to invest in new technologies. And so I'm confident we'll have a good G-
8.

    Mr. McDonald. On the question of Tony Blair, his support for you on 
Iraq probably damaged him politically at home. Supporting his proposals 
in Edinburgh might be one way of paying him back and making sure that he 
can probably repair some of that damage.

    The President. Well, again, I really don't view our relationship as 
one of--you know, we both make decisions and try to earn credit with 
each other on a personal basis. Tony Blair made decisions on what he 
thought was best for keeping the peace and winning the war on terror, as 
did I.

[[Page 1184]]

    So I go to the G-8 not really trying to make him look bad or good, 
but I go to the G-8 with an agenda that I think is best for our country. 
And I believe this: I believe that we have a duty and an obligation to 
help folks who suffer on the continent of Africa and have done so--we've 
tripled the aid to Africa. We've got a significant role in helping to 
defeat HIV/AIDS, a $15 billion program over 5 years. And there is more 
we're going to do, and I look forward to working with Tony and the other 
leaders to help the African countries succeed.
    I will say something about African countries--they're not going to 
succeed, however, if they don't make good choices--good governance 
choices and investment in their people.
    Mr. McDonald. If I may, Mr. President, we will come back to the 
question of African aid.
    The President. Okay, sorry.

Climate Change/Kyoto Protocol

    Mr. McDonald. But can I start with the subject of climate change, 
which is one of the subjects on the G-8 agenda?
    The President. Sure.
    Mr. McDonald. Now, the majority of the world's leading scientists 
now agree that climate change is a reality. Do you agree with their 
conclusion?
    The President. I believe it is a significant, long-term issue that 
we've got to deal with. And that's why my Government is dealing with it. 
We spent I think over $20 billion since I've been the President to not 
only research the issue of greenhouse gases but to develop technologies 
that will enable us to diversify away from fossil fuels. And I look 
forward to discussing this agenda with not only the G-8 leaders but also 
with the leaders of developing countries, countries like India and 
China.
    Mr. McDonald. Do you accept that climate change is manmade, sir?
    The President. To a certain extent it is, obviously. I mean, if 
fossil fuels create greenhouse gases, we're burning fossil fuel, as is a 
lot of other countries. You know, look, there was a debate over Kyoto, 
and I made the decision, as did a lot of other people in this country, 
by the way, that the Kyoto treaty didn't suit our needs. In other words, 
the Kyoto treaty would have wrecked our economy, if I can be blunt.
    And so my hope is--and I think the hope of Tony Blair is--to move beyond the Kyoto debate and to 
collaborate on new technologies that will enable the United States and 
other countries to diversify away from fossil fuels so that the air will 
be cleaner and that we have the economic and national security that 
comes from less dependence on foreign sources of oil. For that end, for 
example, we're investing in--or to that end, we're investing in a lot of 
hydrogen--research on hydrogen-powered automobiles. I believe we'll be 
able to burn coal without emitting any greenhouse gases, zero emissions 
plant.
    And so therefore, we've got to spend money and share technology as 
to how to move forward.
    Mr. McDonald. But Mr. President, if I may, the predictions about 
global warming--and I hear what you say--are very dire. The UK's chief 
scientist says that it probably poses a bigger threat than global 
terrorism. Isn't it, therefore, irresponsible for you to say, as you've 
done, that you walked away from Kyoto and you won't order cuts in carbon 
dioxide emissions because it would damage America's economy?
    The President. I walked away from Kyoto because it would damage 
America's economy, you bet. It would have destroyed our economy. It was 
a lousy deal for the American economy. I felt there was a better way. 
And that's why----
    Mr. McDonald. But is that putting American industrial, economic 
interests above the global interests of the environment?
    The President. No, I think you can do both. See, I think you can 
grow your economy and at the same time do a better job of harnessing 
greenhouse gases. That's

[[Page 1185]]

exactly what I intend to talk to our partners about. I don't think you 
can expect any American leader to wreck the economy, nor as an ally and 
a friend of America and a trading partner of America should you want us 
to wreck our economy.
    On the other hand, what you would want us to do is to use our 
investment capacity as well as our research capacity to come up with new 
ways to power our economy, new ways to energize our economy. And that's 
precisely what we're doing, and I look forward to sharing those ideas.
    Secondly, the Kyoto treaty wouldn't work unless all nations were 
involved. And as you know, many of the developing nations weren't 
involved in Kyoto. So some of the discussions we're going to have at the 
G-8, thanks to Tony Blair's leadership, is to 
work with India and China as to how to share technology with them, so 
that we can all work together to clean up the environment and at the 
same time have sustained economic growth.

Debt Relief/Aid to Africa

    Mr. McDonald. You recently helped, Mr. President, to scrap the debt 
burden on some of Africa's poorest countries, and you've won some praise 
for that. But shouldn't a country as rich as yours be giving much more 
in direct aid to these poverty-stricken countries of Africa?
    The President. Well, we've tripled the budget on direct aid to the 
countries in Africa since I've been the President--tripled it. We have 
got a great trade agreement with the African nations called AGOA, the 
African Growth and Opportunity Act, and that is working. I just 
announced a $674 million food relief package. We're spending $15 billion 
on HIV/AIDS. No, we're leading the world when it comes to helping 
Africa.
    But we've done something else that I think is smart and I think our 
taxpayers appreciate. And that is that we're saying, ``Now for increased 
aid, you, the leaders of Africa, must have transparency in your 
Government. You must fight corruption. You must invest in the health and 
education of your people.'' In other words, we're not going to invest in 
governments that are corrupt.
    Mr. McDonald. So this is aid with strings attached?
    The President. No, this is aid--this is partnership. This is saying 
to nations, ``We want to work with you as partners, partners in 
alleviating poverty, partners in helping fight HIV/AIDS. But you've got 
a role to play. You, the leaders of African nations, you've got a role 
to play to make good governance decisions.'' That's what the taxpayers 
of my country expect, and I hope that's what the taxpayers of Great 
Britain expect--is expect us to, when we make investments in countries--
that they work. And they don't work if a nation doesn't invest in its 
people.
    Mr. McDonald. I hear what you say about tripling the aid to Africa, 
but it's still only--it's less than naught.2 percent of gross domestic 
national product. And that is less than what the United Nations talks 
about of having naught.7 percent. Some European countries are moving 
towards that. Why can't America?
    The President. You know, there's all kinds of ways to calculate how 
generous we are. Let me just tell you this: If you take all the food 
aid, America is by far the most generous country. If you take the direct 
aid, we're very generous. But when you add on our private 
contributions--see, our tax system encourages private citizens to donate 
to organizations that, for example, help the folks in Africa. And when 
you take the combined effort of U.S. taxpayers' money plus U.S. 
citizens' donations, we're very generous. And we'll do more. And I look 
forward to talking about doing more at the G-8. But I've got to tell 
you, I'm very proud of the generosity of the United States.
    Mr. McDonald. But what about that kind of aid which is linked to the 
buying of American goods and services? You say you

[[Page 1186]]

give aid on the condition that people buy American goods and services. 
That's not very generous, is it?
    The President. I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about there. 
What I'm talking about is our Millennium Challenge Account that says, 
``We want to help you, but you've got to have good governance. You've 
got to fight corruption.'' Why does it make sense, for me as the person 
who's supposed to be the wise guardian of the taxpayers' money, to send 
money to a country and know the Government is going to steal it? That 
doesn't make any sense.
    What does make sense is for our generous Nation to help countries 
that make good choices about how they govern, about transparency, but 
also good choices about investing in the health and education of their 
people. We're more than willing to help, and we're leading the world 
when it comes to help. And I wouldn't call it conditions-based, what I 
call it is----
    Mr. McDonald. What about a country like----
    The President. ----partnering, working together.

Uzbekistan

    Mr. McDonald. But what about a country like Uzbekistan, Mr. 
President, with a shocking, appalling record of human rights, getting 
tens of billions of dollars of American aid because you have American 
bases there?
    The President. Again, I'm not exactly sure of the numbers you're 
throwing out there, but no question we have an American base there. 
They've been very helpful in helping fight the war on terror.
    On the other hand, we are sending very clear messages that we expect 
minority rights to be honored, that people ought to be allowed to 
express themselves in the public square without fear of reprisal from 
the Government.

Agricultural Subsidies

    Mr. McDonald. Mr. President, on the question of trade, how can it be 
morally justified for the world's richest country to subsidize its 
farmers so that they can sell their goods cheaper than farmers in the 
Third World and, as a result, put those farmers in the Third World out 
of business?
    The President. That's precisely the question we've been talking to 
the EU about. There are tremendous agricultural subsidies in the EU. 
We----
    Mr. McDonald. Yes, but--I put those questions to the EU if I were 
talking to somebody in the EU, but----
    The President. No, let me--let me finish. Let me finish. I was about 
to say, we've got agricultural subsidies, not nearly to the extent that 
our friends in the EU have, and therefore, we went to Doha round, WTO--
Doha round of the WTO and said, ``Let's get rid of all our subsidies 
together. Let's join hands as wealthy industrialized nations and say to 
the world, we're going to get rid of all our agricultural subsidies 
together.'' And so the position of the U.S. Government is, we're willing 
to do so, and we will do so with the--with our fine friends in the 
European Union.
    Mr. McDonald. So, you would if they would, because at the moment, 
for example----
    The President. Absolutely.
    Mr. McDonald. ----cotton farmers in this country get subsidized to 
the extent of 230 American dollars per cotton acre. You would get rid of 
those things if the EU does?
    The President. Absolutely. And I think we have an obligation to work 
together to do that. And that's why it's very important that the Doha 
round of the WTO go forward.
    Mr. McDonald. Because if we do achieve this business of free trade, 
and if markets in the West are opened up to countries in Africa, say, 
they could be so successful,

[[Page 1187]]

then, that they could eliminate the need for aid.
    The President. Absolutely. That's the whole reason why we've got the 
African Growth and Opportunity Act. As a matter of fact, the benefits 
that have come from opening up markets--our markets to them and their 
markets to us--far outweigh the benefits of aid.

Iraq/War on Terror

    Mr. McDonald. Mr. President, if I can move on to the question of 
Iraq, when we last spoke before the Iraq war, I asked you about Saddam 
Hussein and you said this, and I quote: ``He harbors and develops 
weapons of mass destruction, make no mistake about it.''
    Well, today, no WMD, the war has cost 1,700 American lives, many 
more Iraqi civilians killed, hundreds of billions of dollars in cost to 
your country. Can you understand why some people in your country are now 
beginning to wonder whether it was really worth it?
    The President. Absolutely. I mean, when you turn on your TV set 
every day and see this incredible violence and the havoc that is wreaked 
as a result of these killers, I'm sure why people are getting 
discouraged. And that's why I spoke to the Nation last night and 
reminded people that this is a--Iraq is a part of this global war on 
terror. And the reason why foreign fighters are flocking into Iraq is 
because they want to drive us out of the region.
    See, these folks represent an ideology that is based upon hate and 
kind of a narrow vision of mankind--women don't have rights. And I 
believe this is an ideological movement. And I know that they want to 
use suicide bombers and assassinations and attacks on the World Trade 
Center and the attacks in Madrid to try to shake our will and to achieve 
an objective, which is to topple governments. And the best way to defeat 
an ideology is with a better ideology. And I believe democracy is a 
better ideology, to provide hope for people and--but yes, it's tough. 
But we've done tough things before in America, and we've got a great 
ally in Great Britain. But it's not only Great Britain. As Gerhard 
Schroeder said in the Oval Office, a 
democratic Iraq is important not only to Germany but to Europe, and he's 
right.
    Mr. McDonald. You talk about terrorism in Iraq, but when we spoke 
before the war, there was no terrorism in Iraq. And you're now making 
Iraq the frontline of the war on terrorism. But the terrorists have only 
recently arrived there, arrived since the war on Iraq.
    The President. No, I beg your pardon. Zarqawi, Mr. Zarqawi, who is leading the terrorist effort in Iraq 
now, was in Iraq prior to our discussion.
    Mr. McDonald. No Al Qaida in Iraq before the war, Mr. President.
    The President. No, Zarqawi, Mr. 
Zarqawi was, absolutely. He was.
    Mr. McDonald. So you've justified in making Iraq the frontline now 
in the war on terror?
    The President. No, I haven't justified that. I'm just giving you a 
fact, that foreign fighters are traveling into Iraq to make it a 
frontline in the war on terror. And I would rather defeat them there 
than face them in our own country.
    Mr. McDonald. Have you still--do you still think that you may have 
mismanaged, or do you think you may have mismanaged public expectations 
about a quick victory and a decisive ending to this war? You've talked 
in optimistic terms. But now, as you say, the carnage on the screens 
night after night seems--tell a different story.
    The President. Well, certainly that's a very powerful weapon for the 
terrorists, is to kill innocent men, women, and children, and try to 
shake our will and conscience. And on the other hand, there is progress 
being made in Iraq.
    Remember, it wasn't all that long ago that 8 million people went to 
the polls to vote. And you might remember the discussions prior to the 
vote. I had a lot of people

[[Page 1188]]

saying, ``Well, they don't know what they're doing. The people don't 
want to be free. Certain people can't--they're not going to--what makes 
you think they want democracy?'' And all of a sudden, when given the 
chance, 8 million people voted, and now the political process is moving 
in parallel with the security process. And our strategy is to help the 
Iraqis stand up a viable government, to encourage them to get their 
constitution written, and to have the elections, to ratify the 
constitution, as well as a government under the constitution, and, at 
the same time, train Iraqis so they can fight. That's our strategy, and 
we're making good progress.
    Mr. McDonald. Is the administration at sixes and sevens about the 
insurgency in Iraq? The Vice President said that we're in the last 
throes, or seeing the last throes of the insurgency. Donald Rumsfeld 
comes up and says we could be there for 5, 8, 10, 12 years. Which is it? 
Which do you believe?
    The President. I believe--I believe that we will succeed in Iraq, 
because, one, the Iraqis want to live in a free society.
    Mr. McDonald. But how long will it take, Mr. President?
    The President. And two, that the Iraqis want to take the fight to 
the enemy. And people want me to put a timetable on things. That's a 
huge mistake. Putting a timetable on this--on our stay there in Iraq 
simply emboldens the enemy and discourages our friends. And so 
therefore, my answer is just, quickly as possible, and we are making 
progress.
    Mr. McDonald. Do you ever, in one of those dark souls of the night, 
do you ever think--do you ever think maybe this was not such a good 
idea?
    The President. No, I'm actually confident it's the right thing to 
do.
    Mr. McDonald. You have never had any doubts at all about it?
    The President. I am absolutely confident that we made the right 
decision. And not only that, I'm absolutely confident that the actions 
we took in Iraq are influencing reformers and freedom lovers in the 
greater Middle East. And I believe that you're going to see the rise of 
democracy in many countries in the broader Middle East, which will lay 
the foundation for peace.

Climate Change

    Mr. McDonald. Mr. President, on the subject of climate change, 
again, if I can just come back to that----
    The President. Okay.
    Mr. McDonald. They are expecting--many countries are expecting 
international legal binding agreements on cutting greenhouse gas 
emissions. Can they expect your support in doing that?
    The President. If this looks like Kyoto, the answer is, no. On the 
other hand, if people want to come together and share technologies and 
develop technologies and jointly spend--and spend money on research and 
development, just like the United States is, to help us diversify away 
from fossil fuels--more than willing to discuss it.
    Mr. McDonald. But they're wasting their time if they think that 
they'll get from you an international binding agreement about mandatory 
curbs on greenhouse gases?
    The President. I have--I have no idea. Look, you're asking me to 
design a treaty here with you on the set of the--right here on the set 
of this--on this beautiful set. I mean, that's kind of--but I'm telling 
you, if you're trying to get me to say, ``We support Kyoto,'' the answer 
is, ``No. We don't.'' And it's a bad deal for America.
    On the other hand, I look forward to working with nations. Look, we 
spent over $20 billion on understanding greenhouse gases, understanding 
climate change, and more importantly, on technologies that will enable 
us to deal with this. I believe, for example, as a result of some of the 
research we're doing, we'll have hydrogen-powered automobiles. I know we 
need more nuclear power in order--nuclear power, after all, is not 
dependent on fossil fuels and emits

[[Page 1189]]

no greenhouse gases. I believe we're going to be able to have coal-fired 
plants that have zero emissions. We need to work on carbon sequestration 
technologies. I mean, there's a lot we can do together and achieve the 
objective which a lot of people want, which is the reduction of 
greenhouse gases and, at the same time, have viable economic growth.
    Mr. McDonald. And because, sir, America remains the biggest 
polluter.
    The President. America is the largest investor in the technologies 
necessary to be able to say to people, you can grow your economy so 
people's standard of living can improve, and at the same time be good 
stewards of the environment.
    Mr. McDonald. But pollution in this country has increased amazingly 
since 1992.
    The President. That is a totally inaccurate statement.
    Mr. McDonald. It's a U.N. figure.
    The President. Well, I just beg to differ with every figure you've 
got. The environment has--the quality of the environment has improved, 
in spite of the fact that we've grown our economy.
    Mr. McDonald. Mr. President, thank you.
    The President. Always a pleasure.

Note: The interview was taped at 1:19 p.m. in the Library at the White 
House for later broadcast. In his remarks, the President referred to 
Prime Minister Tony Blair of the United Kingdom; former President Saddam 
Hussein of Iraq; Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder of Germany; senior Al 
Qaida associate Abu Musab Al Zarqawi. A reporter referred to Chief 
Scientific Adviser Sir David King of the United Kingdom. The transcript 
was released by the Office of the Press Secretary on July 5. A tape was 
not available for verification of the content of this interview.