    [Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: George W. Bush (2005, Book II)]
    [June 29, 2005]
    [Pages 1183-1189]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]

    Interview With the United Kingdom's ITV
    June 29, 2005

    Prime Minister Blair/Iraq/G-8

        Sir Trevor McDonald. Mr. President, the G-8 summit will be chaired
    by Tony Blair. He wants to get new international agreements on aid, on
    trade, and on climate change. Now, he gave you unstinting support over
    the war in Iraq; can he expect the same support from you over the G-8?
        The President. You know, Tony Blair made decisions on what he
    thought was best for the people of Great Britain, and I made decisions
    on what I thought was best for Americans. And I really don't view our
    relationship as one of quid pro quo. I view our relationship as one of
    strong allies and friends working together for the common good.
        Having said that, I bring a strong record of support for countries
    in Africa. I think people are going to be surprised to learn about all
    the efforts we've made here in America to clean up our environment and
    to invest in new technologies. And so I'm confident we'll have a good G-
    8.

        Mr. McDonald. On the question of Tony Blair, his support for you on
    Iraq probably damaged him politically at home. Supporting his proposals
    in Edinburgh might be one way of paying him back and making sure that he
    can probably repair some of that damage.

        The President. Well, again, I really don't view our relationship as
    one of--you know, we both make decisions and try to earn credit with
    each other on a personal basis. Tony Blair made decisions on what he
    thought was best for keeping the peace and winning the war on terror, as
    did I.

    [[Page 1184]]

        So I go to the G-8 not really trying to make him look bad or good,
    but I go to the G-8 with an agenda that I think is best for our country.
    And I believe this: I believe that we have a duty and an obligation to
    help folks who suffer on the continent of Africa and have done so--we've
    tripled the aid to Africa. We've got a significant role in helping to
    defeat HIV/AIDS, a $15 billion program over 5 years. And there is more
    we're going to do, and I look forward to working with Tony and the other
    leaders to help the African countries succeed.
        I will say something about African countries--they're not going to
    succeed, however, if they don't make good choices--good governance
    choices and investment in their people.
        Mr. McDonald. If I may, Mr. President, we will come back to the
    question of African aid.
        The President. Okay, sorry.

    Climate Change/Kyoto Protocol

        Mr. McDonald. But can I start with the subject of climate change,
    which is one of the subjects on the G-8 agenda?
        The President. Sure.
        Mr. McDonald. Now, the majority of the world's leading scientists
    now agree that climate change is a reality. Do you agree with their
    conclusion?
        The President. I believe it is a significant, long-term issue that
    we've got to deal with. And that's why my Government is dealing with it.
    We spent I think over $20 billion since I've been the President to not
    only research the issue of greenhouse gases but to develop technologies
    that will enable us to diversify away from fossil fuels. And I look
    forward to discussing this agenda with not only the G-8 leaders but also
    with the leaders of developing countries, countries like India and
    China.
        Mr. McDonald. Do you accept that climate change is manmade, sir?
        The President. To a certain extent it is, obviously. I mean, if
    fossil fuels create greenhouse gases, we're burning fossil fuel, as is a
    lot of other countries. You know, look, there was a debate over Kyoto,
    and I made the decision, as did a lot of other people in this country,
    by the way, that the Kyoto treaty didn't suit our needs. In other words,
    the Kyoto treaty would have wrecked our economy, if I can be blunt.
        And so my hope is--and I think the hope of Tony Blair is--to move beyond the Kyoto debate and to
    collaborate on new technologies that will enable the United States and
    other countries to diversify away from fossil fuels so that the air will
    be cleaner and that we have the economic and national security that
    comes from less dependence on foreign sources of oil. For that end, for
    example, we're investing in--or to that end, we're investing in a lot of
    hydrogen--research on hydrogen-powered automobiles. I believe we'll be
    able to burn coal without emitting any greenhouse gases, zero emissions
    plant.
        And so therefore, we've got to spend money and share technology as
    to how to move forward.
        Mr. McDonald. But Mr. President, if I may, the predictions about
    global warming--and I hear what you say--are very dire. The UK's chief
    scientist says that it probably poses a bigger threat than global
    terrorism. Isn't it, therefore, irresponsible for you to say, as you've
    done, that you walked away from Kyoto and you won't order cuts in carbon
    dioxide emissions because it would damage America's economy?
        The President. I walked away from Kyoto because it would damage
    America's economy, you bet. It would have destroyed our economy. It was
    a lousy deal for the American economy. I felt there was a better way.
    And that's why----
        Mr. McDonald. But is that putting American industrial, economic
    interests above the global interests of the environment?
        The President. No, I think you can do both. See, I think you can
    grow your economy and at the same time do a better job of harnessing
    greenhouse gases. That's

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    exactly what I intend to talk to our partners about. I don't think you
    can expect any American leader to wreck the economy, nor as an ally and
    a friend of America and a trading partner of America should you want us
    to wreck our economy.
        On the other hand, what you would want us to do is to use our
    investment capacity as well as our research capacity to come up with new
    ways to power our economy, new ways to energize our economy. And that's
    precisely what we're doing, and I look forward to sharing those ideas.
        Secondly, the Kyoto treaty wouldn't work unless all nations were
    involved. And as you know, many of the developing nations weren't
    involved in Kyoto. So some of the discussions we're going to have at the
    G-8, thanks to Tony Blair's leadership, is to
    work with India and China as to how to share technology with them, so
    that we can all work together to clean up the environment and at the
    same time have sustained economic growth.

    Debt Relief/Aid to Africa

        Mr. McDonald. You recently helped, Mr. President, to scrap the debt
    burden on some of Africa's poorest countries, and you've won some praise
    for that. But shouldn't a country as rich as yours be giving much more
    in direct aid to these poverty-stricken countries of Africa?
        The President. Well, we've tripled the budget on direct aid to the
    countries in Africa since I've been the President--tripled it. We have
    got a great trade agreement with the African nations called AGOA, the
    African Growth and Opportunity Act, and that is working. I just
    announced a $674 million food relief package. We're spending $15 billion
    on HIV/AIDS. No, we're leading the world when it comes to helping
    Africa.
        But we've done something else that I think is smart and I think our
    taxpayers appreciate. And that is that we're saying, ``Now for increased
    aid, you, the leaders of Africa, must have transparency in your
    Government. You must fight corruption. You must invest in the health and
    education of your people.'' In other words, we're not going to invest in
    governments that are corrupt.
        Mr. McDonald. So this is aid with strings attached?
        The President. No, this is aid--this is partnership. This is saying
    to nations, ``We want to work with you as partners, partners in
    alleviating poverty, partners in helping fight HIV/AIDS. But you've got
    a role to play. You, the leaders of African nations, you've got a role
    to play to make good governance decisions.'' That's what the taxpayers
    of my country expect, and I hope that's what the taxpayers of Great
    Britain expect--is expect us to, when we make investments in countries--
    that they work. And they don't work if a nation doesn't invest in its
    people.
        Mr. McDonald. I hear what you say about tripling the aid to Africa,
    but it's still only--it's less than naught.2 percent of gross domestic
    national product. And that is less than what the United Nations talks
    about of having naught.7 percent. Some European countries are moving
    towards that. Why can't America?
        The President. You know, there's all kinds of ways to calculate how
    generous we are. Let me just tell you this: If you take all the food
    aid, America is by far the most generous country. If you take the direct
    aid, we're very generous. But when you add on our private
    contributions--see, our tax system encourages private citizens to donate
    to organizations that, for example, help the folks in Africa. And when
    you take the combined effort of U.S. taxpayers' money plus U.S.
    citizens' donations, we're very generous. And we'll do more. And I look
    forward to talking about doing more at the G-8. But I've got to tell
    you, I'm very proud of the generosity of the United States.
        Mr. McDonald. But what about that kind of aid which is linked to the
    buying of American goods and services? You say you

    [[Page 1186]]

    give aid on the condition that people buy American goods and services.
    That's not very generous, is it?
        The President. I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about there.
    What I'm talking about is our Millennium Challenge Account that says,
    ``We want to help you, but you've got to have good governance. You've
    got to fight corruption.'' Why does it make sense, for me as the person
    who's supposed to be the wise guardian of the taxpayers' money, to send
    money to a country and know the Government is going to steal it? That
    doesn't make any sense.
        What does make sense is for our generous Nation to help countries
    that make good choices about how they govern, about transparency, but
    also good choices about investing in the health and education of their
    people. We're more than willing to help, and we're leading the world
    when it comes to help. And I wouldn't call it conditions-based, what I
    call it is----
        Mr. McDonald. What about a country like----
        The President. ----partnering, working together.

    Uzbekistan

        Mr. McDonald. But what about a country like Uzbekistan, Mr.
    President, with a shocking, appalling record of human rights, getting
    tens of billions of dollars of American aid because you have American
    bases there?
        The President. Again, I'm not exactly sure of the numbers you're
    throwing out there, but no question we have an American base there.
    They've been very helpful in helping fight the war on terror.
        On the other hand, we are sending very clear messages that we expect
    minority rights to be honored, that people ought to be allowed to
    express themselves in the public square without fear of reprisal from
    the Government.

    Agricultural Subsidies

        Mr. McDonald. Mr. President, on the question of trade, how can it be
    morally justified for the world's richest country to subsidize its
    farmers so that they can sell their goods cheaper than farmers in the
    Third World and, as a result, put those farmers in the Third World out
    of business?
        The President. That's precisely the question we've been talking to
    the EU about. There are tremendous agricultural subsidies in the EU.
    We----
        Mr. McDonald. Yes, but--I put those questions to the EU if I were
    talking to somebody in the EU, but----
        The President. No, let me--let me finish. Let me finish. I was about
    to say, we've got agricultural subsidies, not nearly to the extent that
    our friends in the EU have, and therefore, we went to Doha round, WTO--
    Doha round of the WTO and said, ``Let's get rid of all our subsidies
    together. Let's join hands as wealthy industrialized nations and say to
    the world, we're going to get rid of all our agricultural subsidies
    together.'' And so the position of the U.S. Government is, we're willing
    to do so, and we will do so with the--with our fine friends in the
    European Union.
        Mr. McDonald. So, you would if they would, because at the moment,
    for example----
        The President. Absolutely.
        Mr. McDonald. ----cotton farmers in this country get subsidized to
    the extent of 230 American dollars per cotton acre. You would get rid of
    those things if the EU does?
        The President. Absolutely. And I think we have an obligation to work
    together to do that. And that's why it's very important that the Doha
    round of the WTO go forward.
        Mr. McDonald. Because if we do achieve this business of free trade,
    and if markets in the West are opened up to countries in Africa, say,
    they could be so successful,

    [[Page 1187]]

    then, that they could eliminate the need for aid.
        The President. Absolutely. That's the whole reason why we've got the
    African Growth and Opportunity Act. As a matter of fact, the benefits
    that have come from opening up markets--our markets to them and their
    markets to us--far outweigh the benefits of aid.

    Iraq/War on Terror

        Mr. McDonald. Mr. President, if I can move on to the question of
    Iraq, when we last spoke before the Iraq war, I asked you about Saddam
    Hussein and you said this, and I quote: ``He harbors and develops
    weapons of mass destruction, make no mistake about it.''
        Well, today, no WMD, the war has cost 1,700 American lives, many
    more Iraqi civilians killed, hundreds of billions of dollars in cost to
    your country. Can you understand why some people in your country are now
    beginning to wonder whether it was really worth it?
        The President. Absolutely. I mean, when you turn on your TV set
    every day and see this incredible violence and the havoc that is wreaked
    as a result of these killers, I'm sure why people are getting
    discouraged. And that's why I spoke to the Nation last night and
    reminded people that this is a--Iraq is a part of this global war on
    terror. And the reason why foreign fighters are flocking into Iraq is
    because they want to drive us out of the region.
        See, these folks represent an ideology that is based upon hate and
    kind of a narrow vision of mankind--women don't have rights. And I
    believe this is an ideological movement. And I know that they want to
    use suicide bombers and assassinations and attacks on the World Trade
    Center and the attacks in Madrid to try to shake our will and to achieve
    an objective, which is to topple governments. And the best way to defeat
    an ideology is with a better ideology. And I believe democracy is a
    better ideology, to provide hope for people and--but yes, it's tough.
    But we've done tough things before in America, and we've got a great
    ally in Great Britain. But it's not only Great Britain. As Gerhard
    Schroeder said in the Oval Office, a
    democratic Iraq is important not only to Germany but to Europe, and he's
    right.
        Mr. McDonald. You talk about terrorism in Iraq, but when we spoke
    before the war, there was no terrorism in Iraq. And you're now making
    Iraq the frontline of the war on terrorism. But the terrorists have only
    recently arrived there, arrived since the war on Iraq.
        The President. No, I beg your pardon. Zarqawi, Mr. Zarqawi, who is leading the terrorist effort in Iraq
    now, was in Iraq prior to our discussion.
        Mr. McDonald. No Al Qaida in Iraq before the war, Mr. President.
        The President. No, Zarqawi, Mr.
    Zarqawi was, absolutely. He was.
        Mr. McDonald. So you've justified in making Iraq the frontline now
    in the war on terror?
        The President. No, I haven't justified that. I'm just giving you a
    fact, that foreign fighters are traveling into Iraq to make it a
    frontline in the war on terror. And I would rather defeat them there
    than face them in our own country.
        Mr. McDonald. Have you still--do you still think that you may have
    mismanaged, or do you think you may have mismanaged public expectations
    about a quick victory and a decisive ending to this war? You've talked
    in optimistic terms. But now, as you say, the carnage on the screens
    night after night seems--tell a different story.
        The President. Well, certainly that's a very powerful weapon for the
    terrorists, is to kill innocent men, women, and children, and try to
    shake our will and conscience. And on the other hand, there is progress
    being made in Iraq.
        Remember, it wasn't all that long ago that 8 million people went to
    the polls to vote. And you might remember the discussions prior to the
    vote. I had a lot of people

    [[Page 1188]]

    saying, ``Well, they don't know what they're doing. The people don't
    want to be free. Certain people can't--they're not going to--what makes
    you think they want democracy?'' And all of a sudden, when given the
    chance, 8 million people voted, and now the political process is moving
    in parallel with the security process. And our strategy is to help the
    Iraqis stand up a viable government, to encourage them to get their
    constitution written, and to have the elections, to ratify the
    constitution, as well as a government under the constitution, and, at
    the same time, train Iraqis so they can fight. That's our strategy, and
    we're making good progress.
        Mr. McDonald. Is the administration at sixes and sevens about the
    insurgency in Iraq? The Vice President said that we're in the last
    throes, or seeing the last throes of the insurgency. Donald Rumsfeld
    comes up and says we could be there for 5, 8, 10, 12 years. Which is it?
    Which do you believe?
        The President. I believe--I believe that we will succeed in Iraq,
    because, one, the Iraqis want to live in a free society.
        Mr. McDonald. But how long will it take, Mr. President?
        The President. And two, that the Iraqis want to take the fight to
    the enemy. And people want me to put a timetable on things. That's a
    huge mistake. Putting a timetable on this--on our stay there in Iraq
    simply emboldens the enemy and discourages our friends. And so
    therefore, my answer is just, quickly as possible, and we are making
    progress.
        Mr. McDonald. Do you ever, in one of those dark souls of the night,
    do you ever think--do you ever think maybe this was not such a good
    idea?
        The President. No, I'm actually confident it's the right thing to
    do.
        Mr. McDonald. You have never had any doubts at all about it?
        The President. I am absolutely confident that we made the right
    decision. And not only that, I'm absolutely confident that the actions
    we took in Iraq are influencing reformers and freedom lovers in the
    greater Middle East. And I believe that you're going to see the rise of
    democracy in many countries in the broader Middle East, which will lay
    the foundation for peace.

    Climate Change

        Mr. McDonald. Mr. President, on the subject of climate change,
    again, if I can just come back to that----
        The President. Okay.
        Mr. McDonald. They are expecting--many countries are expecting
    international legal binding agreements on cutting greenhouse gas
    emissions. Can they expect your support in doing that?
        The President. If this looks like Kyoto, the answer is, no. On the
    other hand, if people want to come together and share technologies and
    develop technologies and jointly spend--and spend money on research and
    development, just like the United States is, to help us diversify away
    from fossil fuels--more than willing to discuss it.
        Mr. McDonald. But they're wasting their time if they think that
    they'll get from you an international binding agreement about mandatory
    curbs on greenhouse gases?
        The President. I have--I have no idea. Look, you're asking me to
    design a treaty here with you on the set of the--right here on the set
    of this--on this beautiful set. I mean, that's kind of--but I'm telling
    you, if you're trying to get me to say, ``We support Kyoto,'' the answer
    is, ``No. We don't.'' And it's a bad deal for America.
        On the other hand, I look forward to working with nations. Look, we
    spent over $20 billion on understanding greenhouse gases, understanding
    climate change, and more importantly, on technologies that will enable
    us to deal with this. I believe, for example, as a result of some of the
    research we're doing, we'll have hydrogen-powered automobiles. I know we
    need more nuclear power in order--nuclear power, after all, is not
    dependent on fossil fuels and emits

    [[Page 1189]]

    no greenhouse gases. I believe we're going to be able to have coal-fired
    plants that have zero emissions. We need to work on carbon sequestration
    technologies. I mean, there's a lot we can do together and achieve the
    objective which a lot of people want, which is the reduction of
    greenhouse gases and, at the same time, have viable economic growth.
        Mr. McDonald. And because, sir, America remains the biggest
    polluter.
        The President. America is the largest investor in the technologies
    necessary to be able to say to people, you can grow your economy so
    people's standard of living can improve, and at the same time be good
    stewards of the environment.
        Mr. McDonald. But pollution in this country has increased amazingly
    since 1992.
        The President. That is a totally inaccurate statement.
        Mr. McDonald. It's a U.N. figure.
        The President. Well, I just beg to differ with every figure you've
    got. The environment has--the quality of the environment has improved,
    in spite of the fact that we've grown our economy.
        Mr. McDonald. Mr. President, thank you.
        The President. Always a pleasure.

    Note: The interview was taped at 1:19 p.m. in the Library at the White
    House for later broadcast. In his remarks, the President referred to
    Prime Minister Tony Blair of the United Kingdom; former President Saddam
    Hussein of Iraq; Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder of Germany; senior Al
    Qaida associate Abu Musab Al Zarqawi. A reporter referred to Chief
    Scientific Adviser Sir David King of the United Kingdom. The transcript
    was released by the Office of the Press Secretary on July 5. A tape was
    not available for verification of the content of this interview.