    [Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: George W. Bush (2005, Book II)]
    [August 11, 2005]
    [Pages 1328-1332]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]

    Interview With Israeli Television Channel 1 in Crawford, Texas
    August 11, 2005

        Yaron Deckel. Mr. President, thank you very much for the first
    interview granted to Israeli TV and for hosting us in your beautiful
    ranch in Texas.
        The President. Well, welcome. Thanks for coming. It's an honor to
    have you here, and it's an honor to speak on Israeli TV.

    Prime Minister Sharon/Disengagement

        Mr. Deckel. I understand why you like this place better than the
    White House.
        We are on the eve of the disengagement, and you have expressed your
    full support in disengagement, trying to help Prime Minister Sharon in
    his struggle. And I would like to ask why is it so important to you, Mr.
    President?
        The President. First of all, let me speak about my relationship with
    Prime Minister Sharon, if you don't mind. We've grown close, and one of
    the reasons why is I appreciate a person who when he says something,
    means it. And I hope he appreciates that about me. In other words, I
    said early on, we're going to join in fighting terror so that Israel
    could be secure and America secure and other free nations secure.
        Secondly--and I have--and he knows I keep my word, and I know he
    keeps his word. Secondly, what I appreciate is somebody who thinks
    boldly for peace. And Ariel Sharon came to the White House and said,
    ``We're going to disengage from the Gaza.'' And I was struck by what a
    bold decision that was. And the disengagement is, I think, a part of
    making Israel more secure and peaceful, and I agree with the Prime
    Minister.
        It's important because the United States is a strong ally of Israel
    and, therefore, if you're a strong ally, you want there to be peace for
    your ally.
        Mr. Deckel. You know, the main concern of Israel is that the
    disengagement might lead not to more security but, on the contrary, to
    more violence. Do you understand the concerns?
        The President. Oh, absolutely, I understand. And I can understand
    why people think this decision is one that will create a vacuum into
    which terrorism will flow. I happen to disagree. I think this will
    create an opportunity for democracy to emerge, and democracies are
    peaceful. And therefore, it's very important for the United States, as
    an active participant in this process, to encourage the formation of
    security forces that will defeat terror, just like the roadmap calls
    for--these are Palestinian security forces--and to encourage the
    Palestinians to develop a peaceful state.

    The Negev and Galilee

        Mr. Deckel. You had announced that you will support the
    disengagement by some aid the administration will provide Israel to
    develop the northern and southern--the Galilee and the Negev.

    [[Page 1329]]

        The President. Right.
        Mr. Deckel. Has any decision been made regarding this issue?
        The President. Well, first of all, I did say when the Prime
    Minister was here that the Negev and Galilee
    present great opportunities for economic development. And we understand
    that. So I'm going to send teams over to assess the opportunities
    available for the United States to help Israel, and they'll report back
    to me. But we have made no focus yet on specific budget items.

    Likud Party/Binyamin Netanyahu

        Mr. Deckel. Mr. President, are you troubled by the fierce opposition
    Prime Minister Sharon, your partner, is facing in his own camp, in the
    Likud Party? According to the polls, he might lose because of the
    disengagement.
        The President. First of all, on democracy there's going to be
    dissent. And secondly, the Prime Minister has
    made a very strong, bold decision. And I can understand why people are
    debating the issue. But I'm confident he's made the right decision. And
    I can also assure the Israeli people the decision he made has brought
    the United States and Israel even closer together.
        Mr. Deckel. Have you any opinion about Mr. Netanyahu, who stands to
    succeed him and now is leading the opposition?
        The President. Well, I met Bibi Netanyahu. Of course, he's well
    known in the United States. He's going to make the decision he thinks is
    necessary for Israel's good, and there's just a disagreement between two
    friends. But I believe the decision that Prime Minister Sharon has made and is going to follow through on will be good
    for Israel.
        Mr. Deckel. And why are you so sure it's going to lead to more
    security?
        The President. Well, it's an opportunity--first of all, the previous
    system wasn't working. I mean, there was an intifada; there was death;
    there was killing. And if you notice, there's been a calm in attacks.
    One attack is too many, but there's been fewer attacks. And I think in
    the long run, two states living side by side in peace is the ultimate
    solution for Israeli's security.
        In the meantime, we've got to work to dismantle terrorist
    organizations, and that's precisely what the roadmap calls for.

    President Abbas

        Mr. Deckel. How urgent is it that Mr. Abbas take more actions
    against terrorism? How urgent is it? Because you said that it's not
    enough, what they have done so far.
        The President. Well, I think--and I've told that to the Prime
    Minister Abbas--or President Abbas. He's a strong--he strongly
    understands the need to dismantle terrorists. He knows that a democracy
    can't exist so long as you've got armed groups willing to take law in
    their own hands, and he's committed to a democratic state. And we've got
    work to do with him, and that's why we've got a general on the ground
    there that's helping to try train and coordinate Palestinian forces to
    fight off the terrorists who would want to stop the process for peace.

    Hamas

        Mr. Deckel. But would you accept a permanent ceasefire with the
    Hamas movement, for instance?
        The President. Well, you know, Hamas is on the terrorist group.
        Mr. Deckel. He made a ceasefire with them.
        The President. Well, he's
    elected by the Palestinians. I am not. On the other hand, I can express
    my opinions to him, which I have. And I don't believe you can have a
    peaceful, democratic state with armed groups willing to take the law in
    their own hands.
        Mr. Deckel. As a believer, Mr. President, what do you say to Jewish
    believers who think that God sent them to settle in the biblical Israel,
    and they will not obey any decision of elected government?

    [[Page 1330]]

        The President. Well, you know, there are admonitions in the Bible
    that does talk about the role of government relative to man. And Israel
    is a democracy, and democracies are able to express the will of the
    people. The Prime Minister is expressing what
    he thinks is in the best interests of Israel, and the people will
    decide, ultimately, whether or not that decision makes sense.
        Mr. Deckel. You know, things in the Middle East constantly change.
    And nobody predicted the U.S. will start dialog with the PLO in the
    eighties, and then Prime Minister--late Prime Minister Rabin signing an
    accord with Yasser Arafat. Do you see any similar development with the
    Hamas in the future?
        The President. Here's what I see. I see relations with a peaceful
    Palestinian state that is run by--that is founded on democratic
    institutions. That's what I believe can happen and should happen. I
    mean, in order to ultimately defeat terror, whether it be in Palestinian
    territories or Iraq or Iran, there must be open, transparent societies
    based upon rule of law.

    Palestinian Control of Gaza

        Mr. Deckel. Your timeframe was a Palestinian state in 2005. Would
    you like to update the timeframe, Mr. President?
        The President. I think Israel--the people of Israel must understand
    that now is an opportunity for the Palestinians to show leadership and
    self-government in Gaza. And that's why my focus is intensely upon Gaza.
    We hope that the disengagement goes well. And we understand that once
    Israel has withdrawn, it's now up to the Palestinians to show the world
    that they can self-govern in a peaceful way.
        Mr. Deckel. You said that once the disengagement is carried out,
    both sides will help together to the roadmap to meet their obligations.
    And Prime Minister Sharon vowed that there will be no political progress
    until the Palestinians will act forcefully against terrorism. Do you
    share this view with him?
        The President. Here's the way I view it. One, I think that the
    roadmap does call for dismantling terrorist organizations. And secondly,
    I think--I know that the disengagement from Gaza presents an opportunity
    for a Palestinian state which is peaceful to begin to grow. In other
    words, it goes to show that--that there's a chance to show the Israelis
    and the Palestinians that there's a better life ahead. And in order to
    do that in Gaza--in Gaza----

    Obligations of Middle East Participants

        Mr. Deckel. So the burden is upon the Palestinians once the
    disengagement is over?
        The President. I think the burden is on--everybody has got
    obligations. You know, obviously, the peaceful withdrawal by Israelis
    from the Gaza is part of the burden. The terrorists--dismantling
    terrorist organizations is part of the burden. I think the----
        Mr. Deckel. Should it be the first--the first step before anything
    other happens?
        The President. Gaza?
        Mr. Deckel. The dismantling of the terrorist organizations?
        The President. Well, I think that's a part of a process. You see,
    dismantling a terrorist organization is not only taking arms and
    isolating terrorists, but it's also showing the Palestinians and the
    Israelis that a peaceful state can emerge. This is what the opportunity
    is. And that's why I think that Prime Minister Sharon's decision was so bold.
        But we have a--let me finish the obligations. Israelis have
    obligations. The Palestinians have obligations. The United States has an
    obligation. That's why Mr. Wolfensohn
    and our general on the ground is
    there, to help establish the institutions necessary for a peaceful state
    to emerge. Arab nations have got obligations now: one, to not incite
    violence; two, to help isolate and bring to justice terrorists; and
    three,

    [[Page 1331]]

    to provide funds to help these--the Gaza to become a place of prosperity
    and peace.

    Iran

        Mr. Deckel. You mentioned Iran, and I wonder, Mr. President, how
    imminently is the Iranian threat? There was a release lately of the U.S.
    intelligence that they won't have any capability in the next 10 years.
    Is this your latest information, Mr. President?
        The President. My latest information is that the Iranians refuse to
    comply with the demands of the free world, which is: Do not in any way,
    shape, or form have a program that could yield to a nuclear weapon. And
    the United States and Israel are united in our objective to make sure
    that Iran does not have a weapon. And in this particular instance, the
    EU-3, Britain, France, and Germany, have taken the lead, been helping to
    send the message, a unified message to the Iranians.
        Look, in all these instances we want diplomacy to work. And so we're
    working feverishly on the diplomatic route. And you know, we'll see if
    we're successful or not. As you know, I'm----
        Mr. Deckel. And if not?
        The President. Well, all options are on the table.
        Mr. Deckel. Including use of force?
        The President. Well, you know, as I say, all options are on the
    table. The use of force is the last option for any President. You know,
    we've used force in the recent past to secure our country. It's a
    difficult--it's difficult for the Commander in Chief to put kids in
    harm's way. Nevertheless, I have been willing to do so as a last resort
    in order to secure the country and to provide the opportunity for people
    to live in free societies.

    Iraq

        Mr. Deckel. I won't be finishing this interview without asking you
    about your decision in Iraq. Knowing what you know today, you made the
    right decision, Mr. President?
        The President. Yes. I did. The world is safer without Saddam
    Hussein in power.
        Mr. Deckel. Is it?
        The President. Yes. Absolutely. Saddam
    Hussein--you know, we made the decision on a lot of factors. One factor,
    of course, is that the world thought he had weapons of mass destruction,
    not just the United States but the entire world. I went to the United
    Nations. The United Nations unanimously passed a resolution that said to
    Saddam Hussein, ``Disarm, or face serious consequences.'' Once again, he
    defied the world.
        But we also made the case that Saddam Hussein had terrorist ties. Abu Nidal was in Iraq.
    Zarqawi, the man who's inflicting so
    much murder and chaos on innocent Iraqis, was in Iraq. Saddam Hussein
    was an enemy of the United States, enemy of a lot of countries. And
    there's no doubt in my mind that we're safer as a result of him not
    being in power. And there's no doubt in my mind that a democratic Iraq
    will be a part of a change in the broader Middle East that will lay the
    foundations for peace.
        You know, a lot of the world says, ``Well, unless you are a certain
    type of person, you can't live in a free society.'' I strongly disagree
    with that. I believe that embedded into everybody's soul is the desire
    to live in freedom. That's what I believe, that there is an Almighty,
    and the Almighty plants a sense of being free. Therefore, if given a
    chance, people will live in a free society, and free societies are
    peaceful societies.

    President's Visit to Israel

        Mr. Deckel. Any plans to visit in the State of Israel? I know you
    were there as a Governor of Texas.
        The President. I was. [Laughter]
        Mr. Deckel. What mostly impressed you in the Holy Land?

    [[Page 1332]]

        The President. Well, first of all, I'll never forget waking up in
    the hotel and seeing this golden shine on the Old City. It was just--and
    I remember waking up Laura. I said, ``Laura,
    you're not going to believe--you're not going to believe this fantastic
    sight.''
        The other thing, of course, that sticks in my mind was the
    helicopter tour I took of the West Bank, and my guide was Ariel
    Sharon. It was one of the great ironies of all
    time. I was a Governor; he was in the Cabinet. And he said, ``Would you
    like to take a helicopter ride?'' to me. Governor Cellucci, who went on to be the Ambassador to Canada, and
    Governor Leavitt, who is now in my
    Cabinet, and Governor Racicot, the four of us,
    we said, ``Sure,'' and we got in the chopper, and the tour guide was
    Ariel Sharon as we choppered all throughout the West Bank.
        Mr. Deckel. Will you visit again?
        The President. I'd love to visit again sometime.
        Mr. Deckel. In your term?
        The President. I hope so. And I hope to visit and proclaim success
    as a result of a bold decision that Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has made, and I think I'll be able to do that.
        Mr. Deckel. Mr. President, I do thank you very much for this
    interview and for your time.
        The President. Thanks for coming.

    Note: The interview was taped at 7:17 a.m. at the Bush Ranch for later
    broadcast. In his remarks, the President referred to Prime Minister
    Ariel Sharon of Israel; President Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) of the
    Palestinian Authority; James D. Wolfensohn, Quartet Special Envoy for
    Gaza Disengagement; Lt. Gen. William E. Ward, USA, Senior U.S. Security
    Coordinator, Department of State; former President Saddam Hussein of
    Iraq; Palestinian terrorist Abu Nidal, who was found dead in Baghdad,
    Iraq, on August 19, 2002; and senior Al Qaida associate Abu Musab Al
    Zarqawi. The transcript was released by the Office of the Press
    Secretary on August 12. A tape was not available for verification of the
    content of this interview.