[Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: George W. Bush (2005, Book I)]
[June 29, 2005]
[Pages 1081-1088]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]



Interview With the London Times
June 29, 2005

    The President. Looking forward to the G-8. First of all, I enjoy the 
experience of working with leaders. You can imagine my respect for Tony 
Blair. I'm fond of Tony Blair. I like being 
around him. It's an enjoyable experience. I like to be with all the 
leaders. I find it to be a heady experience, and it energizes me.
    Secondly, I'm looking forward to the topics. There will be 
discussions other than the well-known topics. Hopefully, discuss 
Palestinian peace--or the Middle Eastern peace and a Palestinian state. 
Hopefully, we'll talk the freedom agenda--I think we will. I know we're 
going to talk about Africa, and I look forward to talking about Africa. 
We've got a great record in Africa, and the reason we've got a great 
record in Africa is that I believe in the admonition, ``To whom much has 
been given, much is required.'' And I can't wait to share ideas about 
what we can do going forward.
    I'm looking forward to the discussion on climate. You know, this is 
an opportunity to take the world--the dialog that the world watches 
beyond Kyoto. I fully recognize my decision in Kyoto was unpopular. I 
had a reason for doing so, and I've explained it for now 3 or 4 years as 
to why. But there's a lot we can do together. And we've got a good 
record, and we've got some important things to share. We're spending a 
lot of money on research and development. We've got a strategy to move 
forward, and at this moment, it is important to bring the developing 
countries into the dialog.
    And Tony Blair did a smart thing by inviting 
developing countries. It will be a great opportunity to be able to 
discuss not only how we can be good stewards of the environment but how 
we can develop strategies to become less dependent on hydrocarbons and 
fossil fuels. And so I'm looking forward to it; I really am. I'm looking 
forward to getting back to Scotland, which is going to be a neat 
experience for me.
    So let's go around the horn a couple of times here.

U.S. Aid to Africa

    Q. Okay. Can we pick up on Africa, then G-8?
    The President. Please, yes.
    Q. Billions of dollars flow out of the U.S. every year in trade and 
aid to the developing world. And that figure, as you mentioned, has 
risen significantly on your watch. But having said that, the U.S. 
Government still gives only .16 percent of its GDP to Africa. Is that 
enough? And have you got anything else to offer?
    The President. We will have--we will make some more commitments. 
First of all, the way I like to describe our relationship with Africa is 
one of partnership. That's different than a relationship of, you know, a 
check-writer. In other words, partnership means that we've got 
obligations and so do the people we're trying to help--a sense

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of working together. We have a partnership when it comes to African 
Growth and Opportunity Act, AGOA. It's an aggressive trade pact that 
President Clinton started with Congress, and then I signed extensions to 
it. It's working.
    The truth of the matter is, when you really think about how to get 
wealth distributed, aid is one way, but it doesn't compare to trade and 
commerce. And we've opened up markets, and we're beginning to see a 
payoff of more commerce but, as well, the effects of commerce, 
entrepreneurship and small businesses.
    My Millennium Challenge Account initiative is a new way of 
approaching how we work together in partnership to alleviate poverty and 
hunger. Listen, Americans want to deal with poverty and hunger and 
disease, but they don't want their money being spent on governments that 
do not focus attention on health, education, markets, anticorruption 
devices. And I can't in good faith say, ``Let's continue to be 
generous''--after all, you did mention tripling the money--but I can't 
guarantee the money is being spent properly. That's just not good 
stewardship of our own money, nor is it effective in helping the people.
    And so the Millennium Challenge Account is an approach that I 
sponsored and strongly back. We've got to do a better job of getting the 
money out the door so Congress will continue to embrace the Millennium 
Challenge Account. In other words, we've got the programs going, but 
they're slower than I want. And as a result, Congress is saying, ``If 
this is such an important program, how come you're not kicking the money 
out the door?'' And I'm convinced once we get money going out the door 
and we can show tangible results, we'll be able to fund a lot more 
programs.
    Thirdly, our approach as well has been when we see disaster, let's 
move it to help people. Recently, I announced a $674 million food 
package. I mean, I can proudly proclaim at the G-8 that the United 
States feeds more of the hungry than any nation in the world.
    Fourthly, it is important for people to understand that the 
contribution of the citizens of the United States is made not only 
through taxpayers' money but through private contributions. Our tax 
system encourages people to do this. So, you know, the calculation of 
whatever you said--point-oh-something of GDP--is one way to look at it. 
My point to our friends in the G-8 and to the African nations is, is 
that each country differs as to how we structure our taxes and how we 
contribute to help. And our contribution has been significant, and there 
will be some more.

Zimbabwe

    Q. Mr. President, one country there is a lot of concern about, as 
you know, in Britain in particular, is Zimbabwe, which is headed by a 
brutal tyrant, frankly.
    The President. Yes, he is.
    Q. I'm glad you say that.
    The President. I think I've called him 
that.
    Q. Right.
    The President. Better make sure--remember--I'm sorry to interrupt. 
The South African press was here with Mbeki, and 
they quoted back my words--I think I might have used those words, but go 
ahead.
    Q. Well, first, he is, as you say----
    The President. He's a tyrant. He's ruined 
a--a country that used to not only feed Africa, in other words, an 
exporter of food, they're now an importer of food because of the 
decisions he has made.
    Q. Should it be the responsibility of other African countries to do 
more to isolate that country? And should you make what they do a 
condition of rich countries, giving them aid? I mean, they do seem--they 
don't seem to take this seriously.
    The President. Yes, see, I think the programs that--I forgot to 
mention HIV/AIDS, by the way, a significant commitment. And the reason I 
just thought of

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HIV/AIDS, our programs are really designed to help people. For example, 
I've always said we should never use food as a diplomatic weapon. And 
therefore, I think we ought to use the fact that we're working in 
partnership with countries as an opportunity to convince them to--
convince Mugabe to make different decisions. On the other hand, I don't 
think we ought to make--or allow his tyranny to cause others to suffer 
on the continent of Africa.
    I'm convinced the closer our ties grow as a result of collaborative 
efforts--again, the aid program that I think about is one that requires 
governments to work closely together in partnership. I keep emphasizing 
that, but that's a different approach to development. Partnership when 
it comes to trade, partnership when it comes to taking direct taxpayers' 
money--or taxpayers' money directly and spending it in such a way that--
with a government that is committed to people.
    Those kinds of programs enable us to be more influential on the 
other foreign policy concerns of the particular country. And so, no, I 
don't think we ought to punish the people of Africa because of the man 
in Zimbabwe. He's already done that. But I do 
think we ought to continue to speak clearly about the decisions he has 
made, and I do, as does the Prime Minister of Britain.

Climate Change

    Q. On the other main G-8 talk, climate change, do you believe the 
Earth is, in fact, getting warmer? And if so, do you believe that it is 
man who is making it warmer?
    The President. I believe that greenhouse gases are creating a 
problem, a long-term problem that we've got to deal with, and we are. 
Step one of dealing with it is to fully understand the nature of the 
problem so that the solutions that follow make sense. And I think one of 
the interesting points that I made earlier, that I'll continue to make, 
is that there's an interesting confluence now between dependency upon 
fossil fuels, from a national and economic security perspective, as well 
as the consequences of burning fossil fuels for greenhouse gases.
    And that's why it's important for our country to do two things. One 
is to diversify away from fossil fuels, which we're trying to do. We're 
leading the--I think we're spending more money than any collection of 
nations when it comes to not only research and development of new 
technologies but the science of global warming. I laid out an initiative 
for hydrogen fuel cells. We've got a lot--we're doing a lot of work on 
carbon sequestration. We hope to have zero emissions coal-fired 
electricity plants available for the United States, as well as neighbors 
and friends and developing nations.
    I'm a big believer that nuclear power, the newest generation of 
nuclear power, ought to be a source of energy, and we ought to be 
sharing these technologies with developing countries. I'm going to talk 
to the Prime Minister of India about that 
when he comes to see me.
    One of these days, I'm absolutely convinced that biodiesel will 
become an economic form of energy here in America. We're going to need 
more diesel engines to begin with, but I put regulations in place, by 
the way, that cuts the emissions from diesel engines by about 95 
percent. It's a collaborative effort between manufacturers, government, 
regulators that was a substantial change in the--will cause a 
substantial change in the amount of emissions from diesel engines.
    In summary, technology, with the right Government focus and help, is 
going to change how we live and will make us more economically secure, 
and does so. We're leading the way, and I want to talk to my friends in 
the G-8 about how we can work together in such a way to do so.
    There are interesting--I think the people and your readers will be 
interested to note, the market also is working. The hybrid

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automobiles, mainly manufactured by the Japanese or only manufactured by 
the Japanese, at least in our country, are now taking off. I think 
there's only market penetration of a couple hundred thousand. Demand is 
huge now for them. We've got--in the energy bill, which I think I'll be 
signing here before the August break, there's a pretty good-sized tax 
credit for those who purchase a hybrid automobile. And the truth of the 
matter is, for us to fully deal with the greenhouse gases as well as our 
dependency upon fossil fuels, we're going to have to figure out how to 
drive better. We're going to have to figure out better engines for our 
cars and different fuel sources for cars.

Iraq

    Q. Mr. President, can I ask you about Iraq?
    The President. Please, yes.
    Q. Last night you talked a lot about it. You mentioned 9/11 
repeatedly and the importance of--and how Iraq is part of the broader 
war on terrorism. But there is evidence, isn't there, that Iraq is 
becoming a haven for jihadists. There's been a CIA report which says 
that Iraq is in danger of becoming another Afghanistan or like 
Afghanistan of the 1980s.
    The President. Yes.
    Q. Are you creating--are you at risk of creating the kind of--more 
of the problems that actually led directly to 9/11?
    The President. No, quite the contrary. We're going to--this is where 
you win the war on terror, is you go to the battlefield, and you take 
them on. And that's what they've done. They've said, ``Look, let's go 
fight. This is the place.'' And that was my point. My point is, is that 
there is an ideology of hatred, an ideology that's got a vision of a 
world where the extremists dictate the lives--dictate to millions of 
Muslims.
    They do want to topple government in the Middle East. They do want 
us to withdraw. They're interested in exporting violence. After all, 
look at what happened after September the 11th. One way for your readers 
to understand what their vision is, is to think about what life was like 
under the Taliban in Afghanistan. So we made a decision to protect 
ourselves and remove Saddam Hussein. The 
jihadists made a decision to come into Iraq to fight us for a reason. 
They know that if we're successful in Afghanistan--in Iraq, like we were 
in Afghanistan, that it will be a serious blow to their ideology. And 
the interesting thing about this debate is, you've got to first 
understand or believe that we are dealing with people that have got an 
ideology and kind of world vision.
    That was part of the campaign, as you might remember. The debate 
was, ``Is this a law enforcement measure or is a war on terror?'' And so 
my speech last night was reminding people about what I believe. General 
Abizaid told me something very early in this 
campaign I thought was very interesting. He's a capable man. He's an 
Arab American, who I find to be a man of great depth and understanding. 
He said, ``When we win in Afghanistan and Iraq, it's the beginning of 
the end''--talking about the war on terror--``if we don't win in either, 
it's the beginning of the beginning.''
    And that's how I view it, and that's what that speech said last 
night. And the context of September the 11th was this, we came--we 
learned firsthand the nature of the war on terror on September the 11th, 
so when the war first came here, is what I say. The last time I went to 
Europe I said something, which is true, I said, and many in Europe 
viewed September the 11th as a tragic moment, but a moment. I viewed 
it--view September the 11th as an attack as a result of a larger war 
that changed how I view the world, as did--and how many other Americans 
view the world. It was one of these moments in history that changed 
outlook.
    And so long as I'm sitting here in this Oval Office, I will never 
forget the lessons

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of September the 11th, and that is that we're in a global war against 
coldblooded killers. And you're seeing that now being played out in 
Iraq. And we're going to win in Iraq, and we're going win because, one, 
we're going to find them and bring them to justice. And two, we're going 
to train Iraqis so they can do the fighting. The Iraqis don't want 
foreign fighters in their country stopping the progress toward freedom.
    And the notion that people want to be free was validated by the over 
8 million people who voted, which happened not all that long ago, 
although it appears, it seems to be a long time ago. I mean, it wasn't 
all that long ago that people were saying, ``These people don't really 
want to be free.'' And in fact, 8 million of them showed up, or over 8 
million. And now we're back to a period where we're moving along the 
road forward. We're on a dual track between the security process and the 
political process. And the political process is about to have a key 
moment, which is the writing of the constitution. And I think it will be 
written on time, and it will be a document that will embolden others in 
the Middle East.
    And the other point I made last night, which is very important for 
people to understand, is that there is a freedom movement taking place 
around the world. You've seen it in Europe with Ukraine and Georgia, and 
we're seeing it in the Middle East. And again, the debate was whether or 
not certain people can be free or not. If you would review my Whitehall 
speech, I made that point. And frankly, I rejected the kind of 
intellectual elitism of some around the world who say, ``Well, maybe 
certain people can't be free.'' I don't believe that. I, of course, was 
labeled a blatant idealist. But I am, because I do believe people want 
to be free, regardless of their religion or where they're from. I do 
believe women should be empowered in the Middle East. I don't believe we 
ought to accept forms of government that ultimately create a 
hopelessness that then can be translated into jihadist violence. And I 
believe strongly that the ultimate way you defeat an ideology is with a 
better ideology. And history has proven that.
    Anyway, you got me going. [Laughter] Sorry to give the whole speech 
again.
    Q. Let me just----
    The President. That was an important moment to give. It's not the 
first time I've talked to the Nation about the way forward, and it won't 
be the last time I've talked to the Nation about the way forward. My job 
is to occasionally, you know, go out above the--above the filter and 
speak directly to the people. I did so at the Inaugural Address. I've 
done so at the State of the Unions. I do so here. And I must continually 
remind people, make the connection between the--two things, probably--I 
don't know if I'm giving you more than you need, but two things that are 
very important for people to understand is that, one, I firmly know that 
we've got to defeat them there, face them there, or we'll face them 
again here or in Great Britain or anywhere else where somebody is bold 
enough to say, ``We want to be free.''
    And the other point is, is that we're laying a foundation for peace, 
that free societies ultimately yield peace. And I like to remind people 
that one of my close collaborators and friends--somebody I'll see in 
Scotland--is Prime Minister Koizumi of 
Japan. And it wasn't all that long ago in the march of history that 
Japan was our mortal enemy. And I'm convinced that they're not our 
mortal enemy because we helped rebuild the country and at the same time 
helped them develop a democracy.

Iran

    Q. On Iran, quickly, the new Iranian President was a ringleader of 
the students who took Americans hostage.
    The President. Right, right.
    Q. He said today the wave of the Islamic revolution will soon reach 
the entire world. Is this the kind of guy you can--the West,

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the U.S. and its European allies can really do business with?
    The President. Time will tell. The first interface, kind of serious 
interface with the West will be on the EU-3 discussions about the 
nuclear ambitions of Iran. And our position is very clear, and that is, 
is that they should not be able to develop the technologies that will 
enable the enrichment of uranium, which will ultimately yield a nuclear 
weapon. I say that because they tried to do that clandestinely before, 
which, obviously, shows that there's a conspiratorial nature in their 
thinking.
    And secondly, that their stated objective is the destruction of 
Israel, for example. In diplomacy, it's important to establish common 
goals. Once you establish a common goal or common objective, it then 
makes it much easier to work together to achieve diplomatic ends.
    Our common goal is that Iran should not have a nuclear weapon. That 
is, people universally recognize that is a valid goal, and we're hooked 
together on that. Our position and the position of our EU-3 is that you 
shouldn't--if that's the case, you shouldn't have the means to develop a 
nuclear weapon.
    And so the first test as to, as you said, whether or not he can relate to the West, will be on this issue, 
it seems like to me. And I want to thank the foreign ministers of Great 
Britain, Germany, and 
France for working in a collaborative 
way to send that constant--consistent message to the Iranians.

Prime Minister Tony Blair

    Q. Tony Blair has taken great risks and shown great loyalty to you 
over the last 4 years and at occasionally great cost to himself 
domestically. What have you done for him, and is it enough?
    The President. The decisions we have made have laid the foundation 
of peace for generations. His decisionmaking was based upon what he 
thought was best for the free world--for Great Britain and the free 
world. What doesn't happen in our relationship is we sit down here and 
calculate how best we can help each other personally. That's not our--
our job is to represent something greater than that.
    And you know, we've had several press avails together, and one of 
the undercurrents has always been, you know, quid pro quo. Leaders think 
about visions that are positive and hopeful and optimistic, and you work 
toward that. And that's what's led my decisionmaking process, and it's 
what led--that's why we're a great alliance. Allies work together for 
the common good. And that's what we have the chance to do in the G-8, 
work together for the common good in a smart way.
    I admire Tony Blair. I admire Tony Blair because he's a man of his 
word. I admire Tony Blair because he's a leader with a vision, a vision 
that I happen to agree with, a vision that freedom is universal and 
freedom will lead to peace. I admire him because in the midst of 
political heat, he showed backbone. So he's been a good ally for 
America. And guess what? Americans admire him too.

Europe

    Q. A very quick question on Europe. Europe is in turmoil at the 
moment politically. Tony Blair takes over the Presidency of the EU on 
Friday. He wants to push--he has a vision of an EU which is open, which 
is open to trade, which liberalizes its markets, which is economically 
free and dynamic. And he's got a struggle on his hands. You've said you 
want a strong Europe. You want a strong and integrated Europe. What's 
your vision of a strong and integrated Europe?
    The President. My vision is one that is economically strong, where 
the entrepreneurial spirit is vibrant. And the reason I say that is 
because Europe is our largest trading partner. We trade a trillion 
dollars a year. And it's really helpful for our own economy to have a 
strong, vibrant Europe--economic Europe.

[[Page 1087]]

    Secondly, a strong Europe is one where we can work in common cause 
to spread freedom and democracy. A viable EU has been--is very important 
for sending messages to places like the Ukraine, Georgia, Kosovo, that 
with the right decisionmaking by their governments, that they're a part 
of the greater Europe, which is I think a really important role for the 
EU.
    In terms of helping people who hurt, the EU can be a great partner 
with the United States. We can do a lot when we collaborate. And 
obviously we're watching with interest what has taken place during the 
recent EU debate, when Jose Barroso and Prime Minister Juncker from Luxembourg came, Jean-Claude. You know, my 
message was, was that we want you to succeed. We want you to be a 
partner. We want to have a partner that is viable and strong. If you 
have a friend, you want your friend to be strong. Strong friends make it 
easier to get things done.
    And so it's going to be--it'll be of great interest to me to watch 
how the European Union deals with its current problems. But I believe 
they will over time.

President's Upcoming Visit to Scotland

    Q. Can I just ask you quickly about Scotland?
    The President. Yes.
    Q. You're actually arriving in Scotland on your birthday.
    The President. I am.
    Q. And I wondered if you have any plans for an appropriate 
celebration? [Laughter]
    Q. Haggis.
    Q. That may or may not include haggis?
    The President. Yes, haggis. I was briefed on haggis. [Laughter] No. 
Generally, on your birthday you--my mother used 
to say, ``What do you want to eat?'' And I don't ever remember saying, 
``Haggis, Mom.'' [Laughter]
    But I'm looking forward to going back to Scotland. I've got fond 
memories of Scotland. There's a fellow named James Gammell, who was a well-known Scottish investment banker from 
Ivory & Sime. And he had a lot of friends in Texas, and one of whom was 
my dad. And he had son--he had a 
son my age, and we did an exchange program. 
And my year to go to visit Scotland was, I think, the year we actually 
moved from Midland, Texas, to Houston, Texas--quite a dramatic year for 
me.
    Anyway, I went there and spent a month or so on their sheep farm in 
Glen Isle, I believe it is. It was a fantastic experience. First of all, 
it's a fabulous family, and their farm is beautiful. They still have the 
farm. It's still in their family, I'm told, by another son. 
Jamie is the older son who was my age, and 
then Billy was a person that I then 
reconnected with. He was an oil and gas guy--became an oil and gas guy. 
And he used to come out to Midland, Texas, and we did some deals 
together. I take it--he's taken his little entity and built it into a 
big entity. He's a very successful entrepreneur.
    I see Billy on occasion. Actually, Billy 
and his wife, Geraldine, and their two 
kids came to visit Laura and me, I want to say, 
last year. We went to Camp David. And so we're in touch. And then I 
saw--the Queen gave a beautiful dinner for 
us at Buckingham Palace, and Gammell showed up in his kilt. And I said, 
``Look, buddy, you can wear your kilt, but I'm not going to wear one, if 
that's all right.'' [Laughter]
    Q. And how--is there any--you're staying at the most famous golf 
course in the world. Are you going to have some time for----
    The President. I'm afraid Blair has got us 
over-scheduled. [Laughter] And he didn't--he wants us to work as opposed 
to get a lot of recreation. I'm looking forward to walking the links, if 
possible. I'd like to get a little--I'm an exercise person. And I'd like 
to get some exercise. Laura is going over there, 
so she and I can walk around together, holding hands in the Scottish 
mist.

[[Page 1088]]

    Q. Very romantic. Thank you very much.
    The President. Listen, thanks guys, for coming. I appreciate it.

Note: The interview was taped at 10:28 a.m. in the Oval Office at the 
White House for later broadcast. In his remarks, the President referred 
to Prime Minister Tony Blair and Queen Elizabeth II of the United 
Kingdom; President Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe; President Thabo Mbeki of 
South Africa; Prime Minister Manmohan Singh of India; former President 
Saddam Hussein of Iraq; Gen. John P. Abizaid, USA, combatant commander, 
U.S. Central Command; Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi of Japan; 
President-elect Mahmud Ahmadi-nejad of Iran; President Jose Manuel Durao 
Barroso of the European Commission; and Prime Minister Jean-Claude 
Juncker of Luxembourg, in his capacity as President of the European 
Council. Journalists participating in the interview were Gerard Baker 
and Roland Watson. This transcript was released by the Office of the 
Press Secretary on June 30. A tape was not available for verification of 
the content of this interview.