    [Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: George W. Bush (2005, Book I)]
    [June 29, 2005]
    [Pages 1081-1088]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]

    Interview With the London Times
    June 29, 2005

        The President. Looking forward to the G-8. First of all, I enjoy the
    experience of working with leaders. You can imagine my respect for Tony
    Blair. I'm fond of Tony Blair. I like being
    around him. It's an enjoyable experience. I like to be with all the
    leaders. I find it to be a heady experience, and it energizes me.
        Secondly, I'm looking forward to the topics. There will be
    discussions other than the well-known topics. Hopefully, discuss
    Palestinian peace--or the Middle Eastern peace and a Palestinian state.
    Hopefully, we'll talk the freedom agenda--I think we will. I know we're
    going to talk about Africa, and I look forward to talking about Africa.
    We've got a great record in Africa, and the reason we've got a great
    record in Africa is that I believe in the admonition, ``To whom much has
    been given, much is required.'' And I can't wait to share ideas about
    what we can do going forward.
        I'm looking forward to the discussion on climate. You know, this is
    an opportunity to take the world--the dialog that the world watches
    beyond Kyoto. I fully recognize my decision in Kyoto was unpopular. I
    had a reason for doing so, and I've explained it for now 3 or 4 years as
    to why. But there's a lot we can do together. And we've got a good
    record, and we've got some important things to share. We're spending a
    lot of money on research and development. We've got a strategy to move
    forward, and at this moment, it is important to bring the developing
    countries into the dialog.
        And Tony Blair did a smart thing by inviting
    developing countries. It will be a great opportunity to be able to
    discuss not only how we can be good stewards of the environment but how
    we can develop strategies to become less dependent on hydrocarbons and
    fossil fuels. And so I'm looking forward to it; I really am. I'm looking
    forward to getting back to Scotland, which is going to be a neat
    experience for me.
        So let's go around the horn a couple of times here.

    U.S. Aid to Africa

        Q. Okay. Can we pick up on Africa, then G-8?
        The President. Please, yes.
        Q. Billions of dollars flow out of the U.S. every year in trade and
    aid to the developing world. And that figure, as you mentioned, has
    risen significantly on your watch. But having said that, the U.S.
    Government still gives only .16 percent of its GDP to Africa. Is that
    enough? And have you got anything else to offer?
        The President. We will have--we will make some more commitments.
    First of all, the way I like to describe our relationship with Africa is
    one of partnership. That's different than a relationship of, you know, a
    check-writer. In other words, partnership means that we've got
    obligations and so do the people we're trying to help--a sense

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    of working together. We have a partnership when it comes to African
    Growth and Opportunity Act, AGOA. It's an aggressive trade pact that
    President Clinton started with Congress, and then I signed extensions to
    it. It's working.
        The truth of the matter is, when you really think about how to get
    wealth distributed, aid is one way, but it doesn't compare to trade and
    commerce. And we've opened up markets, and we're beginning to see a
    payoff of more commerce but, as well, the effects of commerce,
    entrepreneurship and small businesses.
        My Millennium Challenge Account initiative is a new way of
    approaching how we work together in partnership to alleviate poverty and
    hunger. Listen, Americans want to deal with poverty and hunger and
    disease, but they don't want their money being spent on governments that
    do not focus attention on health, education, markets, anticorruption
    devices. And I can't in good faith say, ``Let's continue to be
    generous''--after all, you did mention tripling the money--but I can't
    guarantee the money is being spent properly. That's just not good
    stewardship of our own money, nor is it effective in helping the people.
        And so the Millennium Challenge Account is an approach that I
    sponsored and strongly back. We've got to do a better job of getting the
    money out the door so Congress will continue to embrace the Millennium
    Challenge Account. In other words, we've got the programs going, but
    they're slower than I want. And as a result, Congress is saying, ``If
    this is such an important program, how come you're not kicking the money
    out the door?'' And I'm convinced once we get money going out the door
    and we can show tangible results, we'll be able to fund a lot more
    programs.
        Thirdly, our approach as well has been when we see disaster, let's
    move it to help people. Recently, I announced a $674 million food
    package. I mean, I can proudly proclaim at the G-8 that the United
    States feeds more of the hungry than any nation in the world.
        Fourthly, it is important for people to understand that the
    contribution of the citizens of the United States is made not only
    through taxpayers' money but through private contributions. Our tax
    system encourages people to do this. So, you know, the calculation of
    whatever you said--point-oh-something of GDP--is one way to look at it.
    My point to our friends in the G-8 and to the African nations is, is
    that each country differs as to how we structure our taxes and how we
    contribute to help. And our contribution has been significant, and there
    will be some more.

    Zimbabwe

        Q. Mr. President, one country there is a lot of concern about, as
    you know, in Britain in particular, is Zimbabwe, which is headed by a
    brutal tyrant, frankly.
        The President. Yes, he is.
        Q. I'm glad you say that.
        The President. I think I've called him
    that.
        Q. Right.
        The President. Better make sure--remember--I'm sorry to interrupt.
    The South African press was here with Mbeki, and
    they quoted back my words--I think I might have used those words, but go
    ahead.
        Q. Well, first, he is, as you say----
        The President. He's a tyrant. He's ruined
    a--a country that used to not only feed Africa, in other words, an
    exporter of food, they're now an importer of food because of the
    decisions he has made.
        Q. Should it be the responsibility of other African countries to do
    more to isolate that country? And should you make what they do a
    condition of rich countries, giving them aid? I mean, they do seem--they
    don't seem to take this seriously.
        The President. Yes, see, I think the programs that--I forgot to
    mention HIV/AIDS, by the way, a significant commitment. And the reason I
    just thought of

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    HIV/AIDS, our programs are really designed to help people. For example,
    I've always said we should never use food as a diplomatic weapon. And
    therefore, I think we ought to use the fact that we're working in
    partnership with countries as an opportunity to convince them to--
    convince Mugabe to make different decisions. On the other hand, I don't
    think we ought to make--or allow his tyranny to cause others to suffer
    on the continent of Africa.
        I'm convinced the closer our ties grow as a result of collaborative
    efforts--again, the aid program that I think about is one that requires
    governments to work closely together in partnership. I keep emphasizing
    that, but that's a different approach to development. Partnership when
    it comes to trade, partnership when it comes to taking direct taxpayers'
    money--or taxpayers' money directly and spending it in such a way that--
    with a government that is committed to people.
        Those kinds of programs enable us to be more influential on the
    other foreign policy concerns of the particular country. And so, no, I
    don't think we ought to punish the people of Africa because of the man
    in Zimbabwe. He's already done that. But I do
    think we ought to continue to speak clearly about the decisions he has
    made, and I do, as does the Prime Minister of Britain.

    Climate Change

        Q. On the other main G-8 talk, climate change, do you believe the
    Earth is, in fact, getting warmer? And if so, do you believe that it is
    man who is making it warmer?
        The President. I believe that greenhouse gases are creating a
    problem, a long-term problem that we've got to deal with, and we are.
    Step one of dealing with it is to fully understand the nature of the
    problem so that the solutions that follow make sense. And I think one of
    the interesting points that I made earlier, that I'll continue to make,
    is that there's an interesting confluence now between dependency upon
    fossil fuels, from a national and economic security perspective, as well
    as the consequences of burning fossil fuels for greenhouse gases.
        And that's why it's important for our country to do two things. One
    is to diversify away from fossil fuels, which we're trying to do. We're
    leading the--I think we're spending more money than any collection of
    nations when it comes to not only research and development of new
    technologies but the science of global warming. I laid out an initiative
    for hydrogen fuel cells. We've got a lot--we're doing a lot of work on
    carbon sequestration. We hope to have zero emissions coal-fired
    electricity plants available for the United States, as well as neighbors
    and friends and developing nations.
        I'm a big believer that nuclear power, the newest generation of
    nuclear power, ought to be a source of energy, and we ought to be
    sharing these technologies with developing countries. I'm going to talk
    to the Prime Minister of India about that
    when he comes to see me.
        One of these days, I'm absolutely convinced that biodiesel will
    become an economic form of energy here in America. We're going to need
    more diesel engines to begin with, but I put regulations in place, by
    the way, that cuts the emissions from diesel engines by about 95
    percent. It's a collaborative effort between manufacturers, government,
    regulators that was a substantial change in the--will cause a
    substantial change in the amount of emissions from diesel engines.
        In summary, technology, with the right Government focus and help, is
    going to change how we live and will make us more economically secure,
    and does so. We're leading the way, and I want to talk to my friends in
    the G-8 about how we can work together in such a way to do so.
        There are interesting--I think the people and your readers will be
    interested to note, the market also is working. The hybrid

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    automobiles, mainly manufactured by the Japanese or only manufactured by
    the Japanese, at least in our country, are now taking off. I think
    there's only market penetration of a couple hundred thousand. Demand is
    huge now for them. We've got--in the energy bill, which I think I'll be
    signing here before the August break, there's a pretty good-sized tax
    credit for those who purchase a hybrid automobile. And the truth of the
    matter is, for us to fully deal with the greenhouse gases as well as our
    dependency upon fossil fuels, we're going to have to figure out how to
    drive better. We're going to have to figure out better engines for our
    cars and different fuel sources for cars.

    Iraq

        Q. Mr. President, can I ask you about Iraq?
        The President. Please, yes.
        Q. Last night you talked a lot about it. You mentioned 9/11
    repeatedly and the importance of--and how Iraq is part of the broader
    war on terrorism. But there is evidence, isn't there, that Iraq is
    becoming a haven for jihadists. There's been a CIA report which says
    that Iraq is in danger of becoming another Afghanistan or like
    Afghanistan of the 1980s.
        The President. Yes.
        Q. Are you creating--are you at risk of creating the kind of--more
    of the problems that actually led directly to 9/11?
        The President. No, quite the contrary. We're going to--this is where
    you win the war on terror, is you go to the battlefield, and you take
    them on. And that's what they've done. They've said, ``Look, let's go
    fight. This is the place.'' And that was my point. My point is, is that
    there is an ideology of hatred, an ideology that's got a vision of a
    world where the extremists dictate the lives--dictate to millions of
    Muslims.
        They do want to topple government in the Middle East. They do want
    us to withdraw. They're interested in exporting violence. After all,
    look at what happened after September the 11th. One way for your readers
    to understand what their vision is, is to think about what life was like
    under the Taliban in Afghanistan. So we made a decision to protect
    ourselves and remove Saddam Hussein. The
    jihadists made a decision to come into Iraq to fight us for a reason.
    They know that if we're successful in Afghanistan--in Iraq, like we were
    in Afghanistan, that it will be a serious blow to their ideology. And
    the interesting thing about this debate is, you've got to first
    understand or believe that we are dealing with people that have got an
    ideology and kind of world vision.
        That was part of the campaign, as you might remember. The debate
    was, ``Is this a law enforcement measure or is a war on terror?'' And so
    my speech last night was reminding people about what I believe. General
    Abizaid told me something very early in this
    campaign I thought was very interesting. He's a capable man. He's an
    Arab American, who I find to be a man of great depth and understanding.
    He said, ``When we win in Afghanistan and Iraq, it's the beginning of
    the end''--talking about the war on terror--``if we don't win in either,
    it's the beginning of the beginning.''
        And that's how I view it, and that's what that speech said last
    night. And the context of September the 11th was this, we came--we
    learned firsthand the nature of the war on terror on September the 11th,
    so when the war first came here, is what I say. The last time I went to
    Europe I said something, which is true, I said, and many in Europe
    viewed September the 11th as a tragic moment, but a moment. I viewed
    it--view September the 11th as an attack as a result of a larger war
    that changed how I view the world, as did--and how many other Americans
    view the world. It was one of these moments in history that changed
    outlook.
        And so long as I'm sitting here in this Oval Office, I will never
    forget the lessons

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    of September the 11th, and that is that we're in a global war against
    coldblooded killers. And you're seeing that now being played out in
    Iraq. And we're going to win in Iraq, and we're going win because, one,
    we're going to find them and bring them to justice. And two, we're going
    to train Iraqis so they can do the fighting. The Iraqis don't want
    foreign fighters in their country stopping the progress toward freedom.
        And the notion that people want to be free was validated by the over
    8 million people who voted, which happened not all that long ago,
    although it appears, it seems to be a long time ago. I mean, it wasn't
    all that long ago that people were saying, ``These people don't really
    want to be free.'' And in fact, 8 million of them showed up, or over 8
    million. And now we're back to a period where we're moving along the
    road forward. We're on a dual track between the security process and the
    political process. And the political process is about to have a key
    moment, which is the writing of the constitution. And I think it will be
    written on time, and it will be a document that will embolden others in
    the Middle East.
        And the other point I made last night, which is very important for
    people to understand, is that there is a freedom movement taking place
    around the world. You've seen it in Europe with Ukraine and Georgia, and
    we're seeing it in the Middle East. And again, the debate was whether or
    not certain people can be free or not. If you would review my Whitehall
    speech, I made that point. And frankly, I rejected the kind of
    intellectual elitism of some around the world who say, ``Well, maybe
    certain people can't be free.'' I don't believe that. I, of course, was
    labeled a blatant idealist. But I am, because I do believe people want
    to be free, regardless of their religion or where they're from. I do
    believe women should be empowered in the Middle East. I don't believe we
    ought to accept forms of government that ultimately create a
    hopelessness that then can be translated into jihadist violence. And I
    believe strongly that the ultimate way you defeat an ideology is with a
    better ideology. And history has proven that.
        Anyway, you got me going. [Laughter] Sorry to give the whole speech
    again.
        Q. Let me just----
        The President. That was an important moment to give. It's not the
    first time I've talked to the Nation about the way forward, and it won't
    be the last time I've talked to the Nation about the way forward. My job
    is to occasionally, you know, go out above the--above the filter and
    speak directly to the people. I did so at the Inaugural Address. I've
    done so at the State of the Unions. I do so here. And I must continually
    remind people, make the connection between the--two things, probably--I
    don't know if I'm giving you more than you need, but two things that are
    very important for people to understand is that, one, I firmly know that
    we've got to defeat them there, face them there, or we'll face them
    again here or in Great Britain or anywhere else where somebody is bold
    enough to say, ``We want to be free.''
        And the other point is, is that we're laying a foundation for peace,
    that free societies ultimately yield peace. And I like to remind people
    that one of my close collaborators and friends--somebody I'll see in
    Scotland--is Prime Minister Koizumi of
    Japan. And it wasn't all that long ago in the march of history that
    Japan was our mortal enemy. And I'm convinced that they're not our
    mortal enemy because we helped rebuild the country and at the same time
    helped them develop a democracy.

    Iran

        Q. On Iran, quickly, the new Iranian President was a ringleader of
    the students who took Americans hostage.
        The President. Right, right.
        Q. He said today the wave of the Islamic revolution will soon reach
    the entire world. Is this the kind of guy you can--the West,

    [[Page 1086]]

    the U.S. and its European allies can really do business with?
        The President. Time will tell. The first interface, kind of serious
    interface with the West will be on the EU-3 discussions about the
    nuclear ambitions of Iran. And our position is very clear, and that is,
    is that they should not be able to develop the technologies that will
    enable the enrichment of uranium, which will ultimately yield a nuclear
    weapon. I say that because they tried to do that clandestinely before,
    which, obviously, shows that there's a conspiratorial nature in their
    thinking.
        And secondly, that their stated objective is the destruction of
    Israel, for example. In diplomacy, it's important to establish common
    goals. Once you establish a common goal or common objective, it then
    makes it much easier to work together to achieve diplomatic ends.
        Our common goal is that Iran should not have a nuclear weapon. That
    is, people universally recognize that is a valid goal, and we're hooked
    together on that. Our position and the position of our EU-3 is that you
    shouldn't--if that's the case, you shouldn't have the means to develop a
    nuclear weapon.
        And so the first test as to, as you said, whether or not he can relate to the West, will be on this issue,
    it seems like to me. And I want to thank the foreign ministers of Great
    Britain, Germany, and
    France for working in a collaborative
    way to send that constant--consistent message to the Iranians.

    Prime Minister Tony Blair

        Q. Tony Blair has taken great risks and shown great loyalty to you
    over the last 4 years and at occasionally great cost to himself
    domestically. What have you done for him, and is it enough?
        The President. The decisions we have made have laid the foundation
    of peace for generations. His decisionmaking was based upon what he
    thought was best for the free world--for Great Britain and the free
    world. What doesn't happen in our relationship is we sit down here and
    calculate how best we can help each other personally. That's not our--
    our job is to represent something greater than that.
        And you know, we've had several press avails together, and one of
    the undercurrents has always been, you know, quid pro quo. Leaders think
    about visions that are positive and hopeful and optimistic, and you work
    toward that. And that's what's led my decisionmaking process, and it's
    what led--that's why we're a great alliance. Allies work together for
    the common good. And that's what we have the chance to do in the G-8,
    work together for the common good in a smart way.
        I admire Tony Blair. I admire Tony Blair because he's a man of his
    word. I admire Tony Blair because he's a leader with a vision, a vision
    that I happen to agree with, a vision that freedom is universal and
    freedom will lead to peace. I admire him because in the midst of
    political heat, he showed backbone. So he's been a good ally for
    America. And guess what? Americans admire him too.

    Europe

        Q. A very quick question on Europe. Europe is in turmoil at the
    moment politically. Tony Blair takes over the Presidency of the EU on
    Friday. He wants to push--he has a vision of an EU which is open, which
    is open to trade, which liberalizes its markets, which is economically
    free and dynamic. And he's got a struggle on his hands. You've said you
    want a strong Europe. You want a strong and integrated Europe. What's
    your vision of a strong and integrated Europe?
        The President. My vision is one that is economically strong, where
    the entrepreneurial spirit is vibrant. And the reason I say that is
    because Europe is our largest trading partner. We trade a trillion
    dollars a year. And it's really helpful for our own economy to have a
    strong, vibrant Europe--economic Europe.

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        Secondly, a strong Europe is one where we can work in common cause
    to spread freedom and democracy. A viable EU has been--is very important
    for sending messages to places like the Ukraine, Georgia, Kosovo, that
    with the right decisionmaking by their governments, that they're a part
    of the greater Europe, which is I think a really important role for the
    EU.
        In terms of helping people who hurt, the EU can be a great partner
    with the United States. We can do a lot when we collaborate. And
    obviously we're watching with interest what has taken place during the
    recent EU debate, when Jose Barroso and Prime Minister Juncker from Luxembourg came, Jean-Claude. You know, my
    message was, was that we want you to succeed. We want you to be a
    partner. We want to have a partner that is viable and strong. If you
    have a friend, you want your friend to be strong. Strong friends make it
    easier to get things done.
        And so it's going to be--it'll be of great interest to me to watch
    how the European Union deals with its current problems. But I believe
    they will over time.

    President's Upcoming Visit to Scotland

        Q. Can I just ask you quickly about Scotland?
        The President. Yes.
        Q. You're actually arriving in Scotland on your birthday.
        The President. I am.
        Q. And I wondered if you have any plans for an appropriate
    celebration? [Laughter]
        Q. Haggis.
        Q. That may or may not include haggis?
        The President. Yes, haggis. I was briefed on haggis. [Laughter] No.
    Generally, on your birthday you--my mother used
    to say, ``What do you want to eat?'' And I don't ever remember saying,
    ``Haggis, Mom.'' [Laughter]
        But I'm looking forward to going back to Scotland. I've got fond
    memories of Scotland. There's a fellow named James Gammell, who was a well-known Scottish investment banker from
    Ivory & Sime. And he had a lot of friends in Texas, and one of whom was
    my dad. And he had son--he had a
    son my age, and we did an exchange program.
    And my year to go to visit Scotland was, I think, the year we actually
    moved from Midland, Texas, to Houston, Texas--quite a dramatic year for
    me.
        Anyway, I went there and spent a month or so on their sheep farm in
    Glen Isle, I believe it is. It was a fantastic experience. First of all,
    it's a fabulous family, and their farm is beautiful. They still have the
    farm. It's still in their family, I'm told, by another son.
    Jamie is the older son who was my age, and
    then Billy was a person that I then
    reconnected with. He was an oil and gas guy--became an oil and gas guy.
    And he used to come out to Midland, Texas, and we did some deals
    together. I take it--he's taken his little entity and built it into a
    big entity. He's a very successful entrepreneur.
        I see Billy on occasion. Actually, Billy
    and his wife, Geraldine, and their two
    kids came to visit Laura and me, I want to say,
    last year. We went to Camp David. And so we're in touch. And then I
    saw--the Queen gave a beautiful dinner for
    us at Buckingham Palace, and Gammell showed up in his kilt. And I said,
    ``Look, buddy, you can wear your kilt, but I'm not going to wear one, if
    that's all right.'' [Laughter]
        Q. And how--is there any--you're staying at the most famous golf
    course in the world. Are you going to have some time for----
        The President. I'm afraid Blair has got us
    over-scheduled. [Laughter] And he didn't--he wants us to work as opposed
    to get a lot of recreation. I'm looking forward to walking the links, if
    possible. I'd like to get a little--I'm an exercise person. And I'd like
    to get some exercise. Laura is going over there,
    so she and I can walk around together, holding hands in the Scottish
    mist.

    [[Page 1088]]

        Q. Very romantic. Thank you very much.
        The President. Listen, thanks guys, for coming. I appreciate it.

    Note: The interview was taped at 10:28 a.m. in the Oval Office at the
    White House for later broadcast. In his remarks, the President referred
    to Prime Minister Tony Blair and Queen Elizabeth II of the United
    Kingdom; President Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe; President Thabo Mbeki of
    South Africa; Prime Minister Manmohan Singh of India; former President
    Saddam Hussein of Iraq; Gen. John P. Abizaid, USA, combatant commander,
    U.S. Central Command; Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi of Japan;
    President-elect Mahmud Ahmadi-nejad of Iran; President Jose Manuel Durao
    Barroso of the European Commission; and Prime Minister Jean-Claude
    Juncker of Luxembourg, in his capacity as President of the European
    Council. Journalists participating in the interview were Gerard Baker
    and Roland Watson. This transcript was released by the Office of the
    Press Secretary on June 30. A tape was not available for verification of
    the content of this interview.