[Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: George W. Bush (2004, Book III)]
[October 13, 2004]
[Pages 2479-2503]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]



Presidential Debate in Tempe, Arizona
October 13, 2004

    Bob Schieffer. Good evening from Arizona 
State University in Tempe, Arizona. I'm Bob Schieffer of CBS News. I 
want to welcome you to the third and last of

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the 2004 debates between President George Bush and Senator John Kerry.
    As Jim Lehrer told you before the first one, these debates are 
sponsored by the Commission on Presidential Debates. Tonight the topic 
will be domestic affairs, but the format will be the same as that first 
debate. I'll moderate our discussion under detailed rules agreed to by 
the candidates, but the questions and the areas to be covered were 
chosen by me. I have not told the candidates or anyone else what they 
are.
    To refresh your memory on the rules, I will ask a question. The 
candidate is allowed 2 minutes to answer. His opponent then has a minute 
and a half to offer a rebuttal. At my discretion, I can extend the 
discussion by offering each candidate an additional 30 seconds. A green 
light will come on to signal the candidate has 30 seconds left; a yellow 
light signals 15 seconds left; a red light means 5 seconds left. There 
is also a buzzer if it is needed. The candidates may not question each 
other directly. There are no opening statements, but there will be 2-
minute closing statements.
    There is an audience here tonight, but they have agreed to remain 
silent, except for right now, when they join me in welcoming President 
George Bush and Senator John Kerry.
    Gentlemen, welcome to you both. By coin toss, the first question 
goes to Senator Kerry.

Homeland Security

    Senator, I want to set the stage for this discussion by asking the 
question that I think hangs over all of our politics today and is 
probably on the minds of many people watching this debate tonight, and 
that is: Will our children and grandchildren ever live in a world as 
safe and secure as the world in which we grew up?
    Senator John Kerry. Well, first of all, 
Bob, thank you for moderating tonight. Thank you, Arizona State, for 
welcoming us. And thank you to the Presidential Commission for 
undertaking this enormous task. We're proud to be here. Mr. President, 
I'm glad to be here with you again to share similarities and differences 
with the American people.
    Will we ever be safe and secure again? Yes, we absolutely must be. 
That's the goal. Now, how do we achieve it is the most critical 
component of it. I believe that this President, regrettably, rushed us 
into a war, made decisions about foreign policy, pushed alliances away, 
and as a result, America is now bearing this extraordinary burden where 
we are not as safe as we ought to be.
    The measurement is not: Are we safer? The measurement is: Are we as 
safe as we ought to be? And there are a host of options that this 
President had available to him, like making sure that at all our ports 
in America, containers are inspected. Only 95 percent of them--95 
percent come in today uninspected. That's not good enough. People who 
fly on airplanes today--the cargo hold is not X-rayed, but the baggage 
is. That's not good enough. Firehouses don't have enough firefighters in 
them. Police officers are being cut from the streets of America because 
the President decided to cut the COPS program.
    So we can do a better job of homeland security. I can do a better 
job of waging a smarter, more effective war on terror and guarantee that 
we go after the terrorists. I will hunt them down, and we'll kill them. 
We'll capture them. We'll do what's ever necessary to be safe. But I 
pledge this to you, America: I will do it in the way that Franklin 
Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan and John Kennedy and others did, where we 
build the strongest alliances, where the world joins together, where we 
have the best intelligence, and where we are able, ultimately, to be 
more safe and secure.
    Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President, you have 90 
seconds.

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    President Bush. Bob, thank you very much. 
I want to thank Arizona State as well.
    Yes, we can be safe and secure if we stay on the offense against the 
terrorists and if we spread freedom and liberty around the world. I have 
got a comprehensive strategy to not only chase down Al Qaida, wherever 
it exists--and we're making progress; three-quarters of Al Qaida leaders 
have been brought to justice--but to make sure that countries who harbor 
terrorists are held to account. As a result of securing ourselves and 
ridding the Taliban out of Afghanistan, the Afghan people had elections 
this weekend. And the first voter was a 19-year-old woman. Think about 
that. Freedom is on the march. We held to account a terrorist regime in 
Saddam Hussein.
    In other words, in order to make sure we're secure, there must be a 
comprehensive plan. My opponent, just this 
weekend, talked about how terrorism could be reduced to a ``nuisance,'' 
comparing it to prostitution and illegal gambling. I think that attitude 
and that point of view is dangerous. I don't think you can secure 
America for the long run if you don't have a comprehensive view as to 
how to defeat these people.
    At home, we'll do everything we can to protect the homeland. I 
signed the homeland security bill to better align our assets and 
resources. My opponent voted against it. We're 
doing everything we can to protect our borders and ports. But 
absolutely, we can be secure in the long run. It just takes good, strong 
leadership.
    Mr. Schieffer. Anything to add, Senator 
Kerry?
    Senator Kerry. Yes. When the President had 
an opportunity to capture or kill Usama bin Laden, he took his focus off 
of him, outsourced the job to Afghan warlords, and Usama bin Laden 
escaped. Six months after he said, ``Usama bin Laden must be caught, 
dead or alive,'' this President was asked, ``Where is Usama bin Laden?'' 
He said, ``I don't know. I don't really think about him very much. I'm 
not that concerned.'' We need a President who stays deadly focused on 
the real war on terror.
    Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President.
    President Bush. Gosh, I don't think I ever said I'm not worried 
about Usama bin Laden. That's kind of one of 
those exaggerations. Of course, we're worried about Usama bin Laden. 
We're on the hunt after Usama bin Laden. We're using every asset at our 
disposal to get Usama bin Laden.
    My opponent said this war is a matter of 
intelligence and law enforcement. No, this is a--war is a matter of 
using every asset at our disposal to keep the American people protected.

Flu Vaccine Shortage/Health Care

    Mr. Schieffer. New question, Mr. 
President, to you. We're talking about protecting ourselves from the 
unexpected, but the flu season is suddenly upon us. Flu kills thousands 
of people every year. Suddenly we find ourselves with a severe shortage 
of flu vaccine. How did that happen?
    President Bush. Bob, we relied upon a 
company out of England to provide about half of the flu vaccines for the 
United States citizen, and it turned out that the vaccine they were 
producing was contaminated. And so we took the right action and didn't 
allow contaminated medicine into our country. We're working with Canada 
to, hopefully--that they'll produce a--help us realize the vaccine 
necessary to make sure our citizens have got flu vaccinations during 
this upcoming season.
    My call to our fellow Americans is, if you're healthy, if you're 
younger, don't get a flu shot this year. Help us prioritize those who 
need to get the flu shot, the elderly and the young. The CDC, 
responsible for health in the United States, is setting those priorities 
and is allocating the flu vaccine accordingly. I haven't gotten a flu 
shot, and I don't intend to, because I want to make sure that those who 
are most vulnerable get treated.

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    We have a problem with litigation in the United States of America. 
Vaccine manufacturers are worried about getting sued, and so, therefore, 
they have backed off from providing this kind of vaccine. One of the 
reasons I'm such a strong believer in legal reform is so that people 
aren't afraid of producing a product that is necessary for the health of 
our citizens and then end up getting sued in a court of law.
    But the best thing we can do now, Bob, given the circumstances with 
the company in England, is for those of us who are younger and healthy, 
don't get a flu shot.
    Mr. Schieffer. Senator Kerry.
    Senator Kerry. This really underscores the 
problem with the American health care system. It's not working for the 
American family, and it's gotten worse under President Bush over the 
course of the last years. Five million Americans have lost their health 
insurance in this country. You got about a million right here in 
Arizona--just shy, 950,000--who have no health insurance at all. Eighty-
two thousand Arizonians lost their health insurance under President 
Bush's watch. Two hundred and twenty-three thousand kids in Arizona have 
no health insurance at all. All across our country--go to Ohio, 1.4 
million Ohioans have no health insurance; 114,000 of them lost it under 
President Bush; Wisconsin, 82,000 Wisconsinites lost it under President 
Bush.
    This President has turned his back on the wellness of America, and 
there is no system. In fact, it's starting to fall apart, not because of 
lawsuits--though they are a problem, and John Edwards and I are 
committed to fixing them--but because of the larger issue that we don't 
cover Americans. Children across our country don't have health care. 
We're the richest country on the face of the planet, the only 
industrialized nation in the world not to do it. I have a plan to cover 
all Americans. We're going to make it affordable and accessible. We're 
going to let everybody buy into the same health care plan the Senators 
and Congressmen give themselves.
    Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President, would you 
like to add something?
    President Bush. I would, thank you. I want to remind people 
listening tonight that a plan is not a litany of complaints, and a plan 
is not to lay out programs that you can't pay for. He just said he wants everybody to be able to buy into the 
same plan that Senators and Congressman get. That costs the Government 
$7,700 per family. If every family in America signed up like the Senator 
suggested, it would cost us $5 trillion over 10 years. It's an empty 
promise. It's called bait and switch.
    Mr. Schieffer. Time is up.
    President Bush. Thank you.
    Senator Kerry. Actually, it's not an empty 
promise. It's really interesting because the President used that very 
plan as a reason for seniors to accept his prescription drug plan. He 
said, ``If it's good enough for the Congressmen and Senators to have 
choice, seniors ought to have choice.''
    What we do is we have choice. I choose Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Other 
Senators, other Congressman choose other programs. But the fact is we're 
going to help Americans be able to buy into it. Those that can afford it 
are going to buy in themselves. We're not giving this away for nothing.

Paying for New Federal Spending/Taxes

    Mr. Schieffer. All right, Senator Kerry, a 
new question. Let's talk about economic security. You pledged during the 
last debate that you would not raise taxes on those making less than 
$200,000 a year. But the price of everything is going up, and we all 
know it. Health care costs, as you all are talking about, is 
skyrocketing, the cost of the war. My question is, how can you or any 
President, whoever is elected next time, keep that pledge without 
running this country deeper into debt and passing on more of the bills 
that we're running up to our children?

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    Senator Kerry. I'll tell you exactly how I 
can do it: by reinstating what President Bush took away, which is called 
pay as you go. During the 1990s, we had pay-as-you-go rules. If you were 
going to pass something in the Congress, you had to show where you were 
going to pay for it and how.
    President Bush has taken--he's the only President in history to do 
this. He's also the only President since--in 72 years to lose jobs, 1.6 
million jobs lost. He's the only President to have incomes of families 
go down for the last 3 years, the only President to see exports go down, 
the only President to see the lowest level of business investment in our 
country as it is today.
    Now, I'm going to reverse that. I'm going to change that. We're 
going to restore the fiscal discipline we had in the 1990s. Every plan 
that I have laid out, my health care plan, my plan for education, my 
plan for kids to be able to get better college loans, I've shown exactly 
how I'm going to pay for those. And we start--we don't do it 
exclusively, but we start by rolling back George Bush's unaffordable tax 
cut for the wealthiest people, people earning more than $200,000 a year, 
and we pass, hopefully, the McCain/Kerry commission, which identified 
some $60 billion that we can get. We shut the loophole which has 
American workers actually subsidizing the loss of their own job. They 
just passed an expansion of that loophole in the last few days, $43 
billion of giveaways, including favors to the oil and gas industry and 
to people importing ceiling fans from China.
    I'm going to stand up and fight for the American worker, and I'm 
going to do it in a way that's fiscally sound. I show how I pay for the 
health care, how we pay for the education. I have a manufacturing jobs 
credit. We pay for it by shutting that loophole overseas. We raise the 
student loans. I pay for it by changing the relationship with the banks. 
This President has never once vetoed one bill, the first President in 
100 years not to do that.
    Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President.
    President Bush. Well, his rhetoric doesn't match his record. He's 
been a Senator for 20 years. He voted to 
increase taxes 98 times. When they tried to reduce taxes, he voted 
against that 127 times. He talks about being a fiscal conservative or 
fiscally sound, but he voted over--he voted 277 times to waive the 
budget caps, which would have cost the taxpayers $4.2 trillion. He talks 
about pay-go--I'll tell you what pay-go means when you're a Senator from 
Massachusetts, when you're a colleague of Ted Kennedy: Pay-go means you pay, and he goes ahead and spends.
    He's proposed $2.2 trillion of new 
spending, and yet the so-called tax on the rich, which is also a tax on 
many small-business owners in America, raises 600 million by our 
account--billion--800 billion by his account. There is a tax gap. And 
guess who usually ends up filling the tax gap? The middle class.
    I proposed a detailed budget, Bob. I sent 
up my budget man to the Congress, and he says, ``Here's how we're going 
to reduce the deficit in half by 5 years.'' It requires pro-growth 
policies that grow our economy and fiscal sanity in the Halls of 
Congress.

Jobs/Education

    Mr. Schieffer. Let's go to a new question, 
Mr. President, 2 minutes. And let's continue on jobs. You know, there 
are all kind of statistics out there, but I want to bring it down to an 
individual. Mr. President, what do you say to someone in this country 
who has lost his job to someone overseas who is being paid a fraction of 
what that job paid here in the United States?
    President Bush. I say, Bob, ``I've got 
policies to continue to grow our economy and create the jobs of the 21st 
century, and here's some help for you to go get an education. Here's 
some help for you to go to a community college. We've expanded trade 
adjustment assistance. We want to help pay for you to gain the skills 
necessary to fill the jobs of the 21st century.''

[[Page 2484]]

    You know, there's a lot of talk about how to keep the economy 
growing, and we talk about fiscal matters. But perhaps the best way to 
keep jobs here in America and to keep this economy growing is to make 
sure our education system works.
    I went to Washington to solve problems. And I saw a problem in the 
public education system in America. They were just shuffling too many 
kids through the system, year after year, grade after grade, without 
learning the basics. And so we said, ``Let's raise the standards. We're 
spending more money, but let's raise the standards and measure early and 
solve problems now, before it's too late.''
    You know, education is how to help the person who has lost a job. 
Education is how to make sure this--we've got a workforce that's 
productive and competitive. You got--4 more years, I've got more to do 
to continue to raise standards, to continue to reward teachers and 
school districts that are working, to emphasize math and science in the 
classrooms, to continue to expand Pell grants, to make sure that people 
have an opportunity to start their career with a college diploma.
    And so to the person you talked to, I say, ``Here's some help. 
Here's some trade adjustment assistance money for you to go to a 
community college in your neighborhood, a community college which is 
providing the skills necessary to fill the jobs of the 21st century.'' 
And that's what we'd say to that person.
    Mr. Schieffer. Senator Kerry.
    Senator Kerry. I want you to notice how 
the President switched away from jobs and started talking about 
education principally. Let me come back in one moment to that, but I 
want to speak for a second, if I can, to what the President said about 
fiscal responsibility. Being lectured by the President on fiscal 
responsibility is a little bit like Tony Soprano talking to me about law 
and order in this country. [Laughter]
    This President has taken a $5.6 trillion surplus and turned it into 
deficits as far as the eye can see. Health care costs for the average 
American have gone up 64 percent. Tuitions have gone up 35 percent, 
gasoline prices up 30 percent. Medicare premiums went up 17 percent a 
few days ago. Prescription drugs are up 12 percent a year. But guess 
what, America? The wages of Americans have gone down. The jobs that are 
being created in Arizona right now are paying about $13,700 less than 
the jobs that we're losing, and the President just walks on by this 
problem.
    The fact is that he's cut job training money. A billion dollars was 
cut. They only added a little bit back this year because it's an 
election year. They've cut the Pell grants and the Perkins loans to help 
kids be able to go to college. They've cut the training money. They've 
wound up not even extending unemployment benefits and not even extending 
health care to those people who are unemployed. I'm going to do those 
things because that's what right in America: Help workers to transition 
in every respect.

Outsourcing Jobs

    Mr. Schieffer. New question to you, 
Senator Kerry, 2 minutes, and it's still on jobs. You know, many experts 
say that a President really doesn't have much control over jobs. For 
example, if someone invents a machine that does the work of five people, 
that's progress. That's not the President's fault. So I ask you, is it 
fair to blame the administration entirely for this loss of jobs?
    Senator Kerry. I don't blame them entirely 
for it. I blame the President for the things the President could do that 
has an impact on it. Outsourcing is going to happen. I've acknowledged 
that in union halls across the country. I've had shop stewards stand up 
and say, ``Will you promise me you're going to stop all this 
outsourcing?'' And I've looked them in the eye and I've said, ``No, I 
can't do that.''
    What I can promise you is that I will make the playing field as fair 
as possible, that I will, for instance, make certain that

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with respect to the tax system, that you as a worker in America are not 
subsidizing the loss of your job. Today, if you're an American business, 
you actually get a benefit for going overseas. You get to defer your 
taxes. So if you're looking at a competitive world, you say to yourself, 
``Hey, I do better overseas than I do here in America.'' That's not 
smart. I don't want American workers subsidizing the loss of their own 
job. And when I'm President, we're going to shut that loophole in a 
nanosecond, and we're going to use that money to lower corporate tax 
rates in America for all corporations 5 percent. And we're going to have 
a manufacturing jobs credit and a job hiring credit so we actually help 
people be able to hire here.
    The second thing that we can do is provide a fair trade playing 
field. This President didn't stand up for Boeing when Airbus was 
violating international rules with subsidies. He discovered Boeing 
during the course of this campaign after I've been talking about it for 
months. The fact is that the President had an opportunity to stand up 
and take on China for currency manipulation. There are companies that 
wanted to petition the administration. They were told, ``Don't even 
bother. We're not going to listen to it.''
    The fact is that there have been markets shut to us that we haven't 
stood up and fought for. I'm going to fight for a fair trade playing 
field for the American worker. And I will fight for the American worker 
just as hard as I fight for my own job. That's what the American worker 
wants. And if we do that, we can have an impact. Plus, we need fiscal 
discipline. Restore fiscal discipline, we'll do a lot better.
    Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President.
    President Bush. Whoo! Let me start with the Pell grants. In his last 
litany of misstatements, he said we cut Pell 
grants. We've increased Pell grants by a million students. That's a 
fact.
    Here he talks to the workers; let me talk 
to the workers. You got more money in your pocket as a result of the tax 
relief we passed and he opposed. If you have a child, you got a $1,000 
child credit. That's money in your pocket. If you're married, we reduced 
the marriage penalty. The code ought to encourage marriage, not 
discourage marriage. We created a 10-percent bracket to help lower 
income Americans. A family of four making 40,000 received about $1,700 
in tax relief. It's your money. The way my opponent talks, he said we're 
going to spend the Government's money. No, we're spending your money. 
And when you have more money in your pocket, you're able to better 
afford things you want. I believe the role of Government is to stand 
side by side with our citizens to help them realize their dreams, not 
tell citizens how to live their lives.
    My opponent talks about fiscal sanity. His 
record in the United States Senate does not match his rhetoric. He voted 
to increase taxes 98 times and to bust the budget 277 times.
    Mr. Schieffer. Senator Kerry.
    Senator Kerry. Bob, anybody can play with 
these votes; everybody knows that. I have supported or voted for tax 
cuts over 600 times. I broke with my party in order to balance the 
budget, and Ronald Reagan signed into law the tax cut that we voted for. 
I voted for IRA tax cuts. I voted for small-business tax cuts.
    But you know why the Pell grants have gone up in their numbers? 
Because more people qualified for them, because they don't have money. 
But they're not getting the $5,100 the President promised them. They're 
getting less money. There are more people who qualify. That's not what 
we want.
    President Bush. Senator, no one is playing with your votes. You 
voted to increase taxes 98 times. When they voted--when they proposed 
reducing taxes, you voted against it 126 times. You voted to violate the 
budget caps 277 times. You know, there's a mainstream in American 
politics. You sit right on the far left bank. As a

[[Page 2486]]

matter of fact, your record is such that Ted Kennedy, your colleague, is the conservative Senator from 
Massachusetts.

Same-Sex Marriage

    Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President, let's get 
back to economic issues. But let's shift to some other questions here. 
Both of you are opposed to gay marriage. But to understand how you have 
come to that conclusion, I want to ask you a more basic question. Do you 
believe homosexuality is a choice?
    President Bush. You know, Bob, I don't 
know. I just don't know. I do know that we have a choice to make in 
America, and that is to treat people with tolerance and respect and 
dignity. It's important that we do that. I also know, in a free society, 
people, consenting adults, can live the way they want to live. And 
that's to be honored.
    But as we respect someone's rights and as we profess tolerance, we 
shouldn't change--or have to change our basic views on the sanctity of 
marriage. I believe in the sanctity of marriage. I think it's very 
important that we protect marriage as an institution between a man and a 
woman.
    I proposed a constitutional amendment. The reason I did so was 
because I was worried that activist judges are actually defining the 
definition of marriage. And the surest way to protect marriage between a 
man and woman is to amend the Constitution. It has also the benefit of 
allowing citizens to participate in the process. After all, when you 
amend the Constitution, State legislatures must participate in the 
ratification of the Constitution.
    I'm deeply concerned that judges are making those decisions and not 
the citizenry of the United States. You know, Congress passed a law 
called DOMA, the Defense of Marriage Act. My opponent was against it. It basically protected States from the 
action of one State to another. It also defined marriage as between a 
man and a woman. But I'm concerned that that will get overturned, and if 
it gets overturned, then we'll end up with marriage being defined by 
courts. And I don't think that's in our Nation's interest.
    Mr. Schieffer. Senator Kerry.
    Senator Kerry. We're all God's children, 
Bob, and I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a 
lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was. She's being 
who she was born as. I think if you talk to anybody, it's not choice. 
I've met people who've struggled with this for years, people who were in 
a marriage because they were living a sort of convention, and they 
struggled with it. And I've met wives who are supportive of their 
husbands, or vice versa, when they finally sort of broke out and allowed 
themselves to live who they were, who they felt God had made them. I 
think we have to respect that.
    The President and I share the belief that marriage is between a man 
and a woman. I believe that. I believe marriage is between a man and a 
woman. But I also believe that because we are the United States of 
America, we're a country with a great, unbelievable Constitution, with 
rights that we afford people, that you can't discriminate in the 
workplace. You can't discriminate in the rights that you afford people. 
You can't disallow someone the right to visit their partner in a 
hospital. You have to allow people to transfer property, which is why 
I'm for partnership rights and so forth.
    Now, with respect to DOMA and the marriage laws, the States have 
always been able to manage those laws, and they're proving today, every 
State, that they can manage them adequately.

Abortion

    Mr. Schieffer. Senator Kerry, a new 
question for you. The New York Times reports that some Catholic 
archbishops are telling their church members that it would be a sin to 
vote for a candidate like you because you support a woman's right to 
choose an

[[Page 2487]]

abortion and unlimited stem cell research. What is your reaction to 
that?
    Senator Kerry. I respect their views. I 
completely respect their views. I am a Catholic, and I grew up learning 
how to respect those views. But I disagree with them, as do many. I 
believe that I can't legislate or transfer to another American citizen 
my article of faith. What is an article of faith for me is not something 
that I can legislate on somebody who doesn't share that article of 
faith. I believe that choice is a woman's choice. It's between a woman, 
God, and her doctor, and that's why I support that.
    Now, I will not allow somebody to come in and change Roe v. Wade. 
The President has never said whether or not he would do that, but we 
know from the people he's tried to appoint to the court, he wants to. I 
will not. I will defend the right of Roe v. Wade.
    Now, with respect to religion, you know, as I said, I grew up a 
Catholic. I was an altar boy. I know that throughout my life, this has 
made a difference to me. And as President Kennedy said when he ran for 
President, he said, ``I'm not running to be a Catholic President. I'm 
running to be a President who happens to be Catholic.''
    Now, my faith affects everything that I do and choose. There's a 
great passage of the Bible that says, ``What does it mean, my brother, 
to say you have faith, if there are no deeds? Faith without works is 
dead.'' And I think that everything you do in public life has to be 
guided by your faith, affected by your faith, but without transferring 
it in any official way to other people. That's why I fight against 
poverty. That's why I fight to clean up the environment and protect this 
Earth. That's why I fight for equality and justice. All of those things 
come out of that fundamental teaching and belief of faith.
    But I know this, that President Kennedy, in his Inaugural Address, 
told all of us that, ``Here on Earth, God's work must truly be our 
own.'' And that's what we have to--so I think that's the test of public 
service.
    Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President.
    President Bush. I think it's important to promote a culture of life. 
I think a hospitable society is a society where every being counts and 
every person matters. I believe the ideal world is one in which every 
child is protected in law and welcomed to life. I understand there's 
great differences on this issue of abortion, but I believe reasonable 
people can come together and put good law in place that will help reduce 
the number of abortions.
    Take, for example, the ban on partial-birth abortion. It's a brutal 
practice. People from both political parties came together in the Halls 
of Congress and voted overwhelmingly to ban that practice. It made a lot 
of sense. My opponent, in that he's out of the 
mainstream, voted against that law.
    What I'm saying is, is that as we promote life and promote a culture 
of life, surely there are ways we can work together to reduce the number 
of abortions: Continue to promote adoption laws--that's a great 
alternative to abortion; continue to fund and promote maternity group 
homes. I will continue to promote abstinence programs. At the last 
debate, my opponent said his wife was involved with those programs. That's great, 
and I appreciate that very much. All of us ought to be involved with 
programs that provide a viable alternative to abortion.

Health Care Costs

    Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President, let's have a 
new question. It goes to you, and let's get back to economic issues. 
Health insurance costs have risen over 36 percent over the last 4 years, 
according to the Washington Post. We're paying more; we're getting less. 
I would like to ask you, who bears responsibility for this? Is it the 
Government? Is it the insurance companies? Is it the lawyers? Is it the 
doctors? Is it the administration?

[[Page 2488]]

    President Bush. Gosh, I sure hope it's not the administration. 
[Laughter] No, there is a--look, there's a systemic problem. Health care 
costs are on the rise because the consumers are not involved in the 
decisionmaking process. Most health care costs are covered by third 
parties, and therefore, the actual user of health care is not the 
purchaser of health care. And there's no market forces involved with 
health care. It's one of the reasons I'm a strong believer in what they 
call health savings accounts. These are accounts that allow somebody to 
buy a low-premium, high-deductible catastrophic plan and couple it with 
tax-free savings. Businesses can contribute; employees can contribute on 
a contractual basis. But this is a way to make sure people are actually 
involved with the decisionmaking process on health care.
    Secondly, I do believe the lawsuits--I don't believe, I know--that 
the lawsuits are causing health care costs to rise in America. That's 
why I'm such a strong believer in medical liability reform. At the last 
debate, my opponent said, ``Well, they only--
these lawsuits only cause costs to go up by one percent.'' Well, he 
didn't include the defensive practice of medicine that costs the Federal 
Government some $28 billion a year and costs our society between 60 and 
100 billion dollars a year.
    Thirdly, one of the reasons why there's still high costs in medicine 
is because this is the--they don't use information technology. It's like 
if you looked at the--it's the equivalent of the buggy-and-horse days 
compared to other industries here in America. And so we've got to 
introduce high technology into health care. We're beginning to do it. 
We're changing the language. We want there to be electronic medical 
records to cut down on error as well as to reduce costs. People tell me 
that when the health care field is fully integrated with information 
technology, it will wring some 20 percent of the costs out of the 
system.
    And finally, moving generic drugs to the market quicker. So, those 
are four ways to help control the costs in health care.
    Mr. Schieffer. Senator Kerry.
    Senator Kerry. The reason health care 
costs are getting higher--one of the principal reasons is that this 
administration has stood in the way of commonsense efforts that would 
have reduced the costs. Let me give you a prime example. In the Senate, 
we passed the right of Americans to import drugs from Canada. But the 
President and his friends took it out in the House, and now you don't 
have that right. The President blocked you from the right to have less 
expensive drugs from Canada.
    We also wanted Medicare to be able to negotiate bulk purchasing. The 
VA does that. The VA provides lower cost drugs to our veterans. We could 
have done that in Medicare. Medicare is paid for by the American 
taxpayer. Medicare belongs to you. Medicare is for seniors who are--many 
of them--on fixed income, to lift them out of poverty. But rather than 
help you, the taxpayer, have lower cost, rather than help seniors have 
less expensive drugs, the President made it illegal--illegal--for 
Medicare to actually go out and bargain for lower prices. Result: $139 
billion windfall profit to the drug companies coming out of your 
pockets. That's a large part of your 17-percent increase in Medicare 
premiums. When I'm President, I'm sending that back to Congress, and 
we're going to get a real prescription drug benefit.
    Now, we also have people sicker because they don't have health 
insurance. So whether it's diabetes or cancer, they come to the 
hospitals later, and it costs America more. We've got to have health 
care for all Americans.
    Mr. Schieffer. Go ahead, Mr. President.
    President Bush. I think it's important, since he talked about the Medicare plan--he's been in the United 
States Senate for 20 years. He has no record on reforming

[[Page 2489]]

of health care, no record at all. He introduced some 300 bills, and he's 
passed 5--no record of leadership.
    I came to Washington to solve problems. I was deeply concerned about 
seniors having to choose between prescription drugs and food, and so I 
led. And in 2006, our seniors will get a prescription drug coverage in 
Medicare.
    Mr. Schieffer. Senator Kerry, 30 seconds.
    Senator Kerry. Once again, the President 
is misleading America. I've actually passed 56 individual bills that 
I've personally written. And in addition to that, they're not always 
under my name; there is amendments on certain bills.
    But more importantly, with respect to the question of ``no record,'' 
I helped write--I did write--I was one of the original authors of the 
early childhood health care and the expansion of health care that we did 
in the middle of the 1990s. And I'm very proud of that. So the 
President's wrong.

Senator's Health Care Plan

    Mr. Schieffer. Let me direct the next 
question to you, Senator Kerry, and again, let's stay on health care. 
You have, as you have proposed and as the President has commented on 
tonight, proposed a massive plan to extend health care coverage to 
children. You're also talking about the Government picking up a big part 
of the catastrophic bills that people get at the hospital. And you have 
said that you can pay for this by rolling back the President's tax cut 
on the upper two percent.
    Senator Kerry. That's correct.
    Mr. Schieffer. You heard the President say 
earlier tonight that it's going to cost a whole lot more money than 
that. I just ask you, where are you going to get the money?
    Senator Kerry. Well, two leading national news networks have both 
said the President's characterization of my health care plan is 
incorrect. One called it fiction. The other called it untrue. The fact 
is that my health care plan, America, is very simple. It gives you the 
choice. I don't force you to do anything. It's not a Government plan. 
The Government doesn't require you to do anything. You choose your 
doctor. You choose your plan. If you don't want to take the offer of the 
plan that I want to put forward, you don't have to. You can keep what 
you have today, keep a high deductible, keep high premiums, keep a high 
co-pay, keep low benefits. But I got a better plan, and I don't think a 
lot of people are going to want to keep what they have today.
    Here's what I do. We take over Medicaid children from the States so 
that every child in America is covered. And in exchange, if the States 
want to--they're not forced to; they can choose to--they cover 
individuals up to 300 percent of poverty. It's their choice. I think 
they'll choose it, because it's a net plus of $5 billion to them.
    We allow you--if you choose to; you don't have to--but we give you 
broader competition to allow you to buy into the same health care plan 
that Senators and Congressmen give themselves. If it's good enough for 
us, it's good enough for every American. I believe that your health care 
is just as important as any politician in Washington, DC. If you want to 
buy into it, you can. We give you broader competition. That helps lower 
prices.
    In addition to that, we're going to allow people 55 to 64 to buy 
into Medicare early. And most importantly, we give small business a 50-
percent tax credit so that after we lower the cost of health care, they 
also get, whether they're self-employed or a small business, a lower 
cost to be able to cover their employees.
    Now, what happens is, when you begin to get people covered like 
that--for instance, in diabetes, if you diagnose diabetes early, you 
could save $50 billion in the health care system of America by avoiding 
surgery and dialysis. It works, and I'm going to offer it to America.
    Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President.

[[Page 2490]]

    President Bush. In all due respect, I'm not so sure it's credible to 
quote leading news organizations about--well, never mind. Anyway--
[laughter]--let me quote the Lewin report. The Lewin report is a group 
of folks who are not politically affiliated. They analyzed the 
Senator's plan. It costs $1.2 trillion. The 
Lewin report accurately noted that there are going to be 20 million 
people--over 20 million people added to Government-controlled health 
care. It will be the largest increase in Government health care ever.
    If you raise the Medicaid to 300 percent, it provides an incentive 
for small businesses not to provide private insurance to their 
employees. Why should they insure somebody when the Government is going 
to insure for them? It's estimated that 8 million people will go from 
private insurance to Government insurance.
    We have a fundamental difference of opinion. I think Government-run 
health will lead to poor quality health, will lead to rationing, will 
lead to less choice. Once a health care program ends up in a line item 
in the Federal Government budget, it leads to more controls. And just 
look at other countries that have tried to have federally controlled 
health care. They have poor quality health care. Our health care system 
is the envy of the world because we believe in making sure that the 
decisions are made by doctors and patients, not by officials in the 
Nation's Capital.
    Mr. Schieffer. Senator.
    Senator Kerry. The President just said that Government-run health 
care results in poor quality. Now, maybe that explains why he hasn't 
fully funded the VA, and the VA hospital is having trouble, and veterans 
are complaining. Maybe that explains why Medicare patients are 
complaining about being pushed off of Medicare--he doesn't adequately 
fund it.
    But let me just say to America, I am not proposing a Government-run 
program. That's not what I have. I have Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Senators 
and Congressmen have a wide choice. Americans ought to have it too.
    Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President.
    President Bush. You talk about the VA. We've increased VA funding by 
22 billion in the 4 years since I've been President. That's twice the 
amount that my predecessor increased VA 
funding. Of course, we're meeting our obligation to our veterans, and 
the veterans know that. We're expanding veterans' health care throughout 
the country. We're aligning facilities where the veterans live now. 
Veterans are getting very good health care under my administration, and 
they will continue to do so during the next 4 years.

Social Security

    Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President, the next 
question is to you. We all know that Social Security is running out of 
money, and it has to be fixed. You have proposed to fix it by letting 
people put some of the money collected to pay benefits into private 
savings accounts. But the critics are saying that's going to mean 
finding a trillion dollars over the next 10 years to continue paying 
benefits as those accounts are being set up. So where do you get the 
money? Are you going to have to increase the deficit by that much over 
10 years?
    President Bush. Bob, first let me make 
sure that every senior listening today understands that when we're 
talking about reforming Social Security, that they'll still get their 
checks. I remember the 2000 campaign; people said, ``If George W. gets 
elected, your check will be taken away.'' Well, people got their checks, 
and they will continue to get their checks.
    There is a problem for our youngsters, a real problem, and if we 
don't act today, the problem will be valued in the trillions. And so I 
think we need to think differently. We'll honor our commitment to our 
seniors, but for young--for our children and our grandchildren, we need 
to have a different strategy. In recognizing that, I called together a 
group of our fellow citizens to

[[Page 2491]]

study the issue. It was a committee chaired by the late Senator Daniel 
Patrick Moynihan of New York, a Democrat. And they came up with a 
variety of ideas for people to look at.
    I believe that younger workers ought to be allowed to take some of 
their own money and put it in a personal savings account, because I 
understand that they need to get better rates of return than the rates 
of return being given in the current Social Security trust. And the 
compounding rate of interest effect will make it more likely that the 
Social Security system is solvent for our children and our 
grandchildren.
    I will work with Republicans and Democrats. This will be a vital 
issue in my second term. It is an issue that I'm willing to take on. And 
so I'll bring Republicans and Democrats together, and we're of course 
going to have to consider the costs. But I want to warn my fellow 
citizens the cost of doing nothing, the cost of saying the current 
system is okay, far exceeds the cost of trying to make sure we save the 
system for our children.
    Mr. Schieffer. Senator Kerry.
    Senator Kerry. You just heard the 
President say that young people ought to be able to take money out of 
Social Security and put it in their own accounts. Now, my fellow 
Americans, that's an invitation to disaster. The CBO said very clearly 
that if you were to adopt the President's plan, there will be a $2 
trillion hole in Social Security, because today's workers pay into the 
system for today's retirees. And the CBO said--that's the Congressional 
Budget Office; it's bipartisan--they said that there would have to be a 
cut in benefits of 25 to 40 percent.
    Now, the President has never explained to America--ever; hasn't done 
it tonight--where does the transitional money, that $2 trillion, come 
from? He's already got $3 trillion, according to the Washington Post, of 
expenses that he's put on the line from his convention and the promises 
of this campaign, none of which are paid for--not one of them are paid 
for.

    The fact is that the President is driving the largest deficits in 
American history. He's broken the pay-as-you-go rules. I have a record 
of fighting for fiscal responsibility. In 1985, I was one of the first 
Democrats--broke with my party--we balanced the budget in the nineties. 
We paid down the debt for 2 years. And that's what we're going to do. 
We're going to protect Social Security. I will not privatize it. I will 
not cut the benefits. And we're going to be fiscally responsible, and we 
will take care of Social Security.

    Mr. Schieffer. Let me just stay on Social 
Security with a new question for Senator Kerry, because Senator Kerry, 
you have just said you will not cut benefits. Alan Greenspan, the 
Chairman of the Federal Reserve, says there's no way that Social 
Security can pay retirees what we have promised them unless we 
recalibrate. What he's suggesting, we're going to have to cut benefits 
or we're going to have to raise retirement age; we may have to take some 
other reform. But if you've just said you've promised no changes, does 
that mean you're just going to leave this as a problem, another problem, 
for our children to solve?

    Senator Kerry. Not at all. Absolutely not, 
Bob. This is the same thing we heard--I remember I appeared on ``Meet 
the Press'' with Tim Russert in 1990-something--we heard the same thing. 
We fixed it. In fact, we put together a $5.6 trillion surplus in the 
nineties that was for the purpose of saving Social Security. If you take 
the tax cut that the President of the United States has given--President 
Bush gave to Americans in the top 1 percent of America, just that tax 
cut that went to the top 1 percent of America would have saved Social 
Security until the year 2075. The President decided to give it to the 
wealthiest Americans in a tax cut.

[[Page 2492]]

    Now, Alan Greenspan, who I think has done a terrific job in monetary 
policy, supports the President's tax cut. I don't. I support it for the 
middle class, not that part of it that goes to people earning more than 
$200,000 a year. And when I roll it back and we invest in the things 
that I've talked about to move our economy, we're going to grow 
sufficiently that we begin to cut the deficit in half, and we get back 
to where we were at the end of the 1990s when we balanced the budget and 
paid down the debt of this country. Now, we can do that.
    Now, if later on, after a period of time, we find that Social 
Security is in trouble, then we'll pull together the top experts of the 
country. We'll do exactly what we did in the 1990s, and we'll make 
whatever adjustment is necessary. But the first and most important thing 
is to start creating jobs in America. The jobs the President is creating 
pay $9,000 less than the jobs that we're losing. And this is the first 
President in 72 years to preside over an economy in America that has 
lost jobs--1.6 million jobs. Eleven other Presidents--six Democrats and 
five Republicans--had wars, had recessions, had great difficulties. None 
of them lost jobs the way this President has.
    I have a plan to put America back to work. And if we're fiscally 
responsible and put America back to work, we're going to fix Social 
Security.
    Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President.
    President Bush. He forgot to tell you he 
voted to tax Social Security benefits more than one time. I didn't hear 
any plan to fix Social Security. I heard more of the same. He talks 
about middle-class tax cuts; that's exactly where the tax cuts went. 
Most of the tax cuts went to low- and middle-income Americans. And now 
the Tax Code is more fair; 20 percent of the upper income people pay 
about 80 percent of the taxes in America today because of how we 
structured the tax cuts. People listening out there know the benefits of 
the tax cuts we passed. If you have a child, you got tax relief. If 
you're married, you got tax relief. If you pay any tax at all, you got 
tax relief, all of which was opposed by my opponent. And the tax relief 
was important to spur consumption and investment to get us out of this 
recession.
    People need to remember, 6 months prior to my arrival, the stock 
market started to go down, and it was one of the largest declines in our 
history. And then we had a recession, and we got attacked, which cost us 
one million jobs. But we acted. I led the Congress. We passed tax 
relief. And now this economy is growing. We added 1.9 million new jobs 
over the last 13 months.
    Sure, there's more work to do. But the way to make sure our economy 
grows is not to raise taxes on small-business owners. It's not to 
increase the scope of the Federal Government. It's to make sure we have 
fiscal sanity and keep taxes low.

Immigration/Border Security

    Mr. Schieffer. Let's go to a new question, 
Mr. President. I got more e-mail this week on this question than any 
other question, and it is about immigration. I'm told that at least 
8,000 people cross our borders illegally every day. Some people believe 
this is a security issue, as you know. Some believe it's an economic 
issue. Some see it as a human rights issue. How do you see it, and what 
do we need to do about it?
    President Bush. I see it as a serious problem. I see it as a 
security issue; I see it as an economic issue; and I see it as a human 
rights issue. We're increasing the border security of the United States. 
We've got 1,000 more Border Patrol agents on the southern border. We're 
using new equipment. We're using unmanned vehicles to spot people coming 
across, and we'll continue to do so over the next 4 years. This is a 
subject I'm very familiar with. After all, I was a border Governor for a 
while.

[[Page 2493]]

    Many people are coming to this country for economic reasons. They're 
coming here to work. If you can make 50 cents in the heart of Mexico, 
for example, or make $5 here in America--5.15--you're going to come here 
if you're worth your salt, if you want to put food on the table for your 
families. And that's what's happening.
    And so, in order to take pressure off the border, in order to make 
the borders more secure, I believe there ought to be a temporary-worker 
card that allows a willing worker and a willing employer to mate up--so 
long as there's not an American willing to do the job--to join up in 
order to be able to fulfill the employer's needs. That has the benefit 
of making sure our employers aren't breaking the law as they try to fill 
their workforce needs. It makes sure that the people coming across the 
border are humanely treated, that they're not kept in the shadows of our 
society, that they're able to go back and forth to see their families. 
See, the card will have a period of time attached to it.
    It also means it takes pressure off the border. If somebody is 
coming here to work with a card, it means they're not going to have to 
sneak across the border. It means our Border Patrol will be more likely 
to be able to focus on doing their job.
    Now, it's very important for our citizens to also know that I don't 
believe we ought to have amnesty. I don't think we ought to reward 
illegal behavior. There are plenty of people standing in line to become 
a citizen, and we ought not to crowd these people ahead of them in line. 
If they want to become a citizen, they can stand in line too. And here's 
where my opponent and I differ. In September 
2003, he supported amnesty for illegal aliens.
    Mr. Schieffer. Time's up.
    Senator.
    Senator Kerry. Let me just answer one part 
of that last question quickly, and then I'll come to immigration. The 
American middle-class family isn't making it right now, Bob, and what 
the President said about the tax cuts have been wiped out by the 
increase in health care, the increase in gasoline, the increase in 
tuitions, the increase in prescription drugs. The fact is the take-home 
pay of a typical American family as a share of national income is lower 
than it's been since 1929. And the take-home pay of the richest 1 
percent of Americans is the highest it's been since 1928. Under 
President Bush, the middle class has seen their tax burden go up, and 
the wealthiest tax burden has gone down. Now, that's wrong.
    Now, with respect to immigration reform, the President broke his 
promise on immigration reform. He said he would reform it. Four years 
later, he's now promising another plan. Here's what I'll do. Number one, 
the borders are more leaking today than they were before 9/11. The fact 
is we haven't done what we need to do to toughen up our borders, and I 
will.
    Secondly, we need a guest-worker program, but if it's all we have, 
it's not going to solve the problem. The second thing we need is to 
crack down on illegal hiring. It's against the law in the United States 
to hire people illegally, and we ought to be enforcing that law 
properly.
    And thirdly, we need an earned legalization program for people 
who've been here for a long time, stayed out of trouble, got a job, paid 
their taxes, and their kids are American. We've got to start moving them 
toward full citizenship, out of the shadows.
    Mr. Schieffer. Do you want to respond, Mr. 
President?
    President Bush. Well, to say that the borders are not as protected 
as they were prior to September the 11th shows he doesn't know the borders. They're much better protected 
today than they were when I was the Governor of Texas. We've got much 
more manpower, much more equipment there. He just doesn't understand how 
the borders work, evidently, to say that. That is an outrageous claim. 
And we'll continue

[[Page 2494]]

to protect our borders. We'll continue to increase manpower and 
equipment.
    Mr. Schieffer. Senator.
    Senator Kerry. Four thousand people a day 
are coming across the border. The fact is that we now have people from 
the Middle East--allegedly--coming across the border. And we're not 
doing what we ought to do in terms of the technology. We have iris 
identification technology. We have thumbprint, fingerprint technology 
today. We can know who the people are, that they're really the people 
they say they are, when they cross the border. We could speed it up. 
There are huge delays. The fact is, our borders are not as secure as 
they ought to be, and I'll make them secure.

Minimum Wage/Education/Jobs

    Mr. Schieffer. Next question to you, 
Senator Kerry. The gap between rich and poor is growing wider. More 
people are dropping into poverty. Yet the minimum wage has been stuck 
at, what, $5.15 an hour now for about 7 years. Is it time to raise it?
    Senator Kerry. Well, I'm glad you raised 
that question. It's long-overdue time to raise the minimum wage. And 
America, this is one of those issues that separates the President and 
myself. We have fought to try to raise the minimum wage in the last 
years. But the Republican leadership of the House and Senate won't even 
let us have a vote on it. We're not allowed to vote on it. They don't 
want to raise the minimum wage.
    The minimum wage is the lowest minimum wage value it has been in our 
Nation in 50 years. If we raise the minimum wage, which I will do over 
several years to $7 an hour, 9.2 million women who are trying to raise 
their families would earn another $3,800 a year. The President has 
denied 9.2 million women $3,800 a year, but he doesn't hesitate to fight 
for $136,000 to a millionaire. One percent of America got $89 billion 
last year in a tax cut. But people working hard, playing by the rules, 
trying to take care of their kids--family values that we're supposed to 
value so much in America--I'm tired of politicians who talk about family 
values and don't value families. What we need to do is raise the minimum 
wage.
    We also need to hold onto equal pay. Women work for 76 cents on the 
dollar for the same work that men do. That's not right in America. And 
we have an initiative that we were working on to raise women's pay. 
They've cut it off. They've stopped it. They don't enforce these kinds 
of things. I think that it is a matter of fundamental right that if we 
raise the minimum wage, 15 million Americans would be positively 
affected. We'd put money into the hands of people who work hard, who 
obey the rules, who play for the American Dream. And if we did that, 
we'd have more consumption ability in America, which is what we need 
right now in order to kick our economy into gear. I will fight tooth and 
nail to pass the minimum wage.
    Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President.
    President Bush. Actually, Mitch McConnell had a minimum wage plan that I supported that would 
have increased the minimum wage.
    But let me talk about what's really important for the worker you're 
referring to, and that's to make sure the education system works, is to 
make sure we raise standards. Listen, the No Child Left Behind Act is 
really a jobs act when you think about it. The No Child Left Behind Act 
says, ``We'll raise standards. We'll increase Federal spending, but in 
return for extra spending, we now want people to measure--States and 
local jurisdictions to measure, to show us whether or not a child can 
read or write or add and subtract.'' You cannot solve a problem unless 
you diagnose the problem, and we weren't diagnosing problems. And 
therefore, just kids were being shuffled through the school. And guess 
who would get shuffled through? Children whose parents wouldn't speak 
English as first language, just moved

[[Page 2495]]

through; many inner-city kids, just moved through. We've stopped that 
practice now by measuring early, and when we find a problem, we spend 
extra money to correct it.
    I remember a lady in Houston, Texas, telling me reading is the new 
civil right. And she's right. In order to make sure people have jobs for 
the 21st century, we've got to get it right in the education system. And 
we're beginning to close a minority achievement gap now. You see, we'd 
never be able to compete in the 21st century unless we have an education 
system that doesn't quit on children, an education system that raises 
standards, an education that makes sure there's excellence in every 
classroom.

Judicial Nominations/Education Funding

    Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President, I want to go 
back to something Senator Kerry said earlier tonight and ask a followup 
of my own. He said--and this will be a new question to you--he said that 
you had never said whether you would like to overturn Roe v. Wade. So 
I'd ask you directly, would you like to?
    President Bush. What he's asking me is 
will I have a litmus test for my judges, and the answer is no, I will 
not have a litmus test. I will pick judges who will interpret the 
Constitution, but I'll have no litmus test.
    Mr. Schieffer. Senator Kerry, you'd like 
to respond?
    Senator Kerry. Is that a new question, or 
a 30-second question?
    Mr. Schieffer. That's a new question for 
President Bush.
    Senator Kerry. Which time limit are we----
    Mr. Schieffer. You have 90 seconds.
    Senator Kerry. Thank you very much. Well, 
again, the President didn't answer the question. I will answer it 
straight to America. I'm not going to appoint a judge to the court who 
is going to undo a constitutional right, whether it's the first 
amendment or the fifth amendment or some other right that's given under 
our courts today--under the Constitution. And I believe that the right 
of choice is a constitutional right. So, I don't intend to see it 
undone. Clearly, the President wants to leave an ambivalence or intends 
to undo it.
    Let me go a step further. We have a long distance yet to travel in 
terms of fairness in America. I don't know how you can govern in this 
country when you look at New York City and you see that 50 percent of 
the black males there are unemployed, when you see 40 percent of 
Hispanic children, of black children in some cities dropping out of high 
school. And yet the President, who talks about No Child Left Behind, 
refused to fully fund--by $28 billion--that particular program, so you 
can make a difference in the lives of those young people.
    Now, right here in Arizona, that difference would have been $131 
million to the State of Arizona to help its kids be able to have better 
education and to lift the property tax burden from its citizens. The 
President reneged on his promise to fund No Child Left Behind. He will 
tell you he's raised the money, and he has, but he didn't put in what he 
promised. And that makes a difference in the lives of our children.
    Mr. Schieffer. Yes, sir.
    President Bush. Two things: One, he 
clearly has a litmus test for his judges, which I disagree with.
    And secondly, only a liberal Senator from Massachusetts would say that a 49-percent increase in funding for 
education was not enough. We've increased funds, but more importantly, 
we've reformed the system to make sure that we solve problems early, 
before they're too late. He talked about the unemployed. Absolutely, 
we've got to make sure they get educated. He talked about children whose 
parents don't speak English as a first language. Absolutely, we've got 
to make sure they get educated.

[[Page 2496]]

And that's what the No Child Left Behind Act does.
    Mr. Schieffer. Senator.
    Senator Kerry. You don't measure it by a 
percentage increase. Mr. President, you measure it by whether you're 
getting the job done. Five hundred thousand kids lost after-school 
programs because of your budget. Now, that's not in my gut. That's not 
my value system--and certainly not so that the wealthiest people in 
America can walk away with another tax cut: $89 billion last year to the 
top 1 percent of Americans, but kids lost their after-school programs. 
You be the judge.

Addressing the Needs of the Military

    Mr. Schieffer. All right, let's go to 
another question, and it is to Senator Kerry. You have 2 minutes, sir. 
Senator, at the last debate, President Bush said he did not favor a 
draft. You agreed with him. But our National Guard and Reserve forces 
are being severely strained because many of them are being held beyond 
their enlistments. Some of them say that it's a backdoor draft. Is there 
any relief that could be offered to these brave Americans and their 
families? If you became President, Senator Kerry, what would you do 
about this situation of holding National Guard and Reservists for these 
extended periods of time and these repeated callups that they're now 
facing?
    Senator Kerry. Well, I think the fact that 
they're facing these repeated callups, some of them two and three 
deployments, and there's a stop-loss policy that prevents people from 
being able to get out when their time was up, is a reflection of the bad 
judgment this President exercised in how he has engaged in the world and 
deployed our forces. Our military is overextended. Nine out of ten 
Active Duty Army divisions are either in Iraq, going to Iraq, or have 
come back from Iraq. One way or the other, they're wrapped up in it.
    Now, I've proposed adding two active-duty divisions to the Armed 
Forces of the United States, one combat, one support. In addition, I'm 
going to double the number of special forces so that we can fight a more 
effective war on terror with less pressure on the National Guard and 
Reserve. And what I would like to do is see the National Guard and 
Reserve be deployed differently here in our own country. There's much we 
can do with them with respect to homeland security. We ought to be doing 
that, and that would relieve an enormous amount of pressure.
    But the most important thing to relieve the pressure on all of our 
Armed Forces is, frankly, to run a foreign policy that recognizes that 
America is strongest when we are working with real alliances, when we 
are sharing the burdens of the world by working through our 
statesmanship at the highest levels and our diplomacy to bring other 
nations to our side.
    I've said it before; I say it again: I believe the President broke 
faith with the American people in the way that he took this Nation to 
war. He said he would work through the--a real alliance. He said in 
Cincinnati, ``We would plan carefully. We would take every precaution.'' 
Well, we didn't, and the result is our forces today are overextended. 
The fact is that he did not choose to go to war as a last resort. And 
America now is paying already 120 billion, up to 200 billion before 
we're finished and much more, probably, and that is the result of this 
President taking his eye off of Usama bin Laden.
    Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President.
    President Bush. The best way to take the pressure off our troops is 
to succeed in Iraq, is to train Iraqis so they can do the hard work of 
democracy, is to give them a chance to defend their country, which is 
precisely what we're doing. We'll have 125,000 troops trained by the end 
of this year.
    I remember going on an airplane in Bangor, Maine, to say thanks to 
the Reservists and Guard that were headed overseas from

[[Page 2497]]

Tennessee and North Carolina and Georgia. Some of them had been there 
before. The people I talked to, the spirits were high. They didn't view 
their service as a backdoor draft. They view their service as an 
opportunity to serve their country.
    My opponent, the Senator, talks about 
foreign policy. In our first debate, he proposed America pass a ``global 
test.'' In order to defend ourselves, we have to get international 
approval. That's one of the major differences we have about defending 
our country. I work with allies. I work with friends. We'll continue to 
build strong coalitions. But I will never turn over our national 
security decisions to leaders of other countries. We'll be resolute. 
We'll be strong, and we will wage a comprehensive war against the 
terrorists.
    Mr. Schieffer. Senator.
    Senator Kerry. I have never suggested a 
test where we turn over our security to any nation. In fact, I've said 
the opposite. I will never turn the security of the United States over 
to any nation. No nation will ever have a veto over us. But I think it 
makes sense--I think most Americans in their guts know that we ought to 
pass a sort of truth standard. That's how you gain legitimacy with your 
own countrypeople, and that's how you gain legitimacy in the world. But 
I will never fail to protect the United States of America.
    President Bush. In 1990, there was a vast coalition put together to 
run Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait. The 
international community, the international world, said this is the right 
thing to do. But when it came time to authorize the use of force on the 
Senate floor, my opponent voted against the 
use of force. Apparently, you can't pass any test under his vision of 
the world.

Assault Weapons Ban

    Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President, new 
question, 2 minutes. You said that if Congress would vote to extend the 
ban on assault weapons, that you'd sign the legislation. But you did 
nothing to encourage the Congress to extend it. Why not?
    President Bush. Actually, I made my intentions--I made my views 
clear. I did think we ought to extend the assault weapons ban and was 
told the fact that the bill was never going to move because Republicans 
and Democrats were against the assault weapon ban, people of both 
parties.
    Now, I believe law-abiding citizens ought to be able to own a gun. I 
believe in background checks at gun shows or anywhere to make sure that 
guns don't get in the hands of people that shouldn't have them. But the 
best way to protect our citizens from guns is to prosecute those who 
commit crimes with guns. And that's why, early in my administration, I 
called the Attorney General and the U.S. 
attorneys and said, ``Put together a task force all around the country 
to prosecute those who commit crime with guns.'' And the prosecutions 
are up by about 68 percent, I believe is the number. Neighborhoods are 
safer when we crack down on people who commit crimes with guns. To me, 
that's the best way to secure America.
    Mr. Schieffer. Senator.
    Senator Kerry. I believe it was a failure 
of Presidential leadership not to reauthorize the assault weapons ban. I 
am a hunter. I'm a gun owner. I've been a hunter since I was a kid, 12, 
13 years old. And I respect the second amendment, and I will not tamper 
with the second amendment. But I'll tell you this. I'm also a former law 
enforcement officer. I ran one of the largest district attorney offices 
in America, one of the 10 largest. I've put people behind bars for the 
rest of their life. I've broken up organized crime. I know something 
about prosecuting. And most of the law enforcement agencies in America 
wanted that assault weapons ban. They don't want to go into a drug bust 
and be facing an AK-47.
    I was hunting in Iowa last year with the sheriff from one of the 
counties there, and he pointed to a house in back of us and said, ``See 
that house over there? We just

[[Page 2498]]

did a drug bust a week earlier, and the guy we arrested had an AK-47 
lying on the bed right beside him.''
    Because of the President's decision today, law enforcement officers 
will walk into a place that will be more dangerous. Terrorists can now 
come into America and go to a gun show and, without even a background 
check, buy an assault weapon today. And that's what Usama bin Laden's 
handbook said, because we captured it in Afghanistan, and it encouraged 
them to do it.
    So I believe America is less safe. If Tom DeLay or someone in the 
House said to me, ``Sorry, we don't have the votes,'' I'd have said, 
``Then we're going to have a fight.'' And I'd have taken it out to the 
country, and I'd have had every law enforcement officer in the country 
visit those Congressmen. We'd have won what Bill Clinton won.

Affirmative Action

    Mr. Schieffer. Let's go to a new question. 
For you, Senator Kerry, 2 minutes. Affirmative action--do you see a need 
for affirmative action programs, or have we moved far enough along that 
we no longer need to use race and gender as a factor in school 
admissions and Federal and State contracts, and so on?
    Senator Kerry. No, Bob, regrettably, we 
have not moved far enough along. And I regret to say that this 
administration has even blocked steps that could help us move further 
along. I'll give you an example.
    I'm the--I served on the Small Business Committee for a long time. I 
was chairman of it once; now I'm the senior Democrat on it. We used to--
we have a goal there for minority set-aside programs to try to encourage 
ownership in the country. They don't reach those goals. They don't even 
fight to reach those goals. They've tried to undo them.
    The fact is that in too many parts of our country, we still have 
discrimination, and affirmative action is not just something that 
applies to people of color. Some people have a mistaken view of it in 
America. It also is with respect to women. It's with respect to other 
efforts to try to reach out and be inclusive in our country. I think 
that we have a long way to go, regrettably. If you look at what's 
happened, we've made progress; I want to say that at the same time.
    During the Clinton years, as you may recall, there was a fight over 
affirmative action. And there were many people, like myself, who opposed 
quotas, who felt there were places where it was overreaching. So we had 
a policy called ``mend it, don't end it.'' We fixed it. And we fixed it 
for a reason, because there are too many people still in this country 
who feel the stark resistance of racism. And so we have a distance to 
travel. As President, I will make certain we travel it.
    Now, let me just share something. This President is the first 
President ever, I think, not to meet with the NAACP. This is a President 
who hasn't met with the Black Congressional Caucus. This is a President 
who has not met with the civil rights leadership of our country. If a 
President doesn't reach out and bring people in and be inclusive, then 
how are we going to get over those barriers? I see that as part of my 
job as President, and I'll make my best effort to do it.
    Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President.
    President Bush. Well, first of all, it is just not true that I 
haven't met with the Black Congressional Caucus. I met with the Black 
Congressional Caucus at the White House.
    And secondly, like my opponent, I don't 
agree we ought to have quotas--I agree, we shouldn't have quotas. But we 
ought to have an aggressive effort to make sure people are educated, to 
make sure when they get out of high school there's Pell grants available 
for them, which is what we've done. We've expanded Pell grants by a 
million students. Do you realize, today in America, we spend $73 billion 
to help

[[Page 2499]]

10 million low- and middle-income families better afford college? That's 
the access I believe is necessary, is to make sure every child learns to 
read, write, add, and subtract early, to be able to build on that 
education by going to college so they can start their careers with a 
college diploma.
    I believe the best way to help our small businesses is not only 
through small-business loans, which we have increased since I've been 
the President of the United States, but to unbundle Government contracts 
so people will have a chance to be able to bid and receive a contract to 
help get their business going.
    Minority ownership of businesses are up because we created an 
environment for the entrepreneurial spirit to be strong. I think--I 
believe part of a hopeful society is one in which somebody owns 
something. Today in America more minorities own a home than ever before. 
And that's hopeful, and that's positive.

Candidates' Faith

    Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President, let's go to 
a new question. You were asked before the invasion--or after the 
invasion of Iraq if you had checked with your dad. And I believe--I 
don't remember the quote exactly--but I believe you said you had checked 
with a higher authority. I would like to ask you, what part does your 
faith play on your policy decisions?
    President Bush. First, my faith plays a lot--a big part in my life. 
And that's--when I was answering that question, what I was really saying 
to the person was that I pray a lot, and I do. And my faith is a very--
it's very personal. I pray for strength. I pray for wisdom. I pray for 
our troops in harm's way. I pray for my family. I pray for my little 
girls. But I'm mindful, in a free society, that people can worship if 
they want to or not. You're equally an American if you choose to worship 
an Almighty and if you choose not to. If you're a Christian, Jew, or 
Muslim, you're equally an American. That's the great thing about 
America, is the right to worship the way you see fit.
    Prayer and religion sustain me. I've received calmness in the storms 
of the Presidency. I love the fact that people pray for me and my family 
all around the country. Somebody asked me one time, ``Well, how do you 
know?'' I said, ``I just feel it.'' Religion is an important part. I 
never want to impose my religion on anybody else, but when I make 
decisions, I stand on principle. And the principles are derived from who 
I am. I believe we ought to love our neighbor like we love ourself. 
That's manifested in public policy through the Faith-Based Initiative, 
where we've unleashed the armies of compassion to help seal--heal people 
who hurt.
    I believe that God wants everybody to be free. That's what I 
believe. And that's part of my foreign policy. In Afghanistan, I believe 
that the freedom there is a gift from the Almighty, and I can't tell you 
how encouraged I am to see freedom on the march. And so my principles 
that I make decisions on are a part of me, and religion is a part of me.
    Mr. Schieffer. Senator Kerry.
    Senator Kerry. Well, I respect everything 
that the President has said, and certainly I respect his faith. I think 
it's important, and I share it. I think that he just said that freedom 
is a gift from the Almighty. Everything is a gift from the Almighty. And 
as I measure the words of the Bible--and we all do; different people 
measure different things, the Koran, the Torah, or--Native Americans who 
gave me a blessing the other day had their own special sense of 
connectedness to a higher being, and people all find their ways to 
express it.
    I was taught--I went to a church school, and I was taught that the 
two greatest commandments are ``Love the Lord, your God, with all your 
mind, your body, and your soul'' and ``Love your neighbor as yourself.'' 
And frankly, I think we have a lot more loving of our neighbor to do in 
this country and on this planet.

[[Page 2500]]

    We have a separate and unequal school system in the United States of 
America. There's one for the people who have, and there's one for the 
people who don't have. And we're struggling with that today. The 
President and I have a difference of opinion about how we live out our 
sense of our faith. I talked about it earlier when I talked about the 
works and faith without works being dead. I think we've got a lot more 
work to do. And as President, I will always respect everybody's right to 
practice religion as they choose or not to practice, because that's part 
of America.

Era of Divisiveness

    Mr. Schieffer. Senator Kerry, after 9/11--
and this is a new question for you--it seemed to me that the country 
came together as I've never seen it come together since World War II. 
But some of that seems to have melted away. I think it's fair to say 
we've become pretty polarized, perhaps because of the political season. 
But if you were elected President or whoever is elected President, will 
you set a priority in trying to bring the Nation back together? Or what 
would be your attitude on that?
    Senator Kerry. Well, very much so. Let me 
pay a compliment to the President, if I may. I think in those days after 
9/11, I thought the President did a terrific job. And I really was moved 
as well as impressed by the speech that he gave to the Congress. And I 
think the hug Tom Daschle gave him at that moment was about as genuine a 
sense of there being no Democrats, no Republicans; we were all just 
Americans. That's where we were.
    That's not where we are today. I regret to say that the President, 
who called himself a uniter, not a divider, is now presiding over the 
most divided America in the recent memory of our country. I've never 
seen such ideological squabbles in the Congress of the United States. 
I've never seen members of a party locked out of meetings the way 
they're locked out today.
    We have to change that, and as President, I am committed to changing 
that. I don't care if the idea comes from the other side or this side. I 
think we have to come together and work to change it. And I've done 
that. Over 20 years in the United States Senate, I've worked with John 
McCain, who's sitting here. I've worked with other colleagues. I've 
reached across the aisle. I've tried to find the common ground, because 
that's what makes us strong as Americans.
    And if Americans trust me with the Presidency, I can pledge to you, 
we will have the most significant effort--openly, not secret meetings in 
the White House with special interests, not ideologically driven efforts 
to push people aside, but a genuine effort to try to restore America's 
hope and possibilities by bringing people together.
    And one of the ways we're going to do it is, I'm going to work with 
my friend John McCain to further campaign finance reform so we get these 
incredible amounts of money out of the system and open it up to average 
people so America is really represented by the people who make up 
America.
    Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President.
    President Bush. My biggest disappointment in Washington is how 
partisan the town is. I had a record of working with Republicans and 
Democrats as the Governor of Texas, and I was hopeful to be able to do 
the same thing. And we made good progress early on. The No Child Left 
Behind Act, incredibly enough, was good work between me and my 
administration and people like Senator Ted Kennedy. And we worked together with Democrats to relieve the tax 
burden on the middle class and all who pay taxes in order to make sure 
this economy continues to grow.
    But Washington is a tough town, and the way I view it is there's a 
lot of entrenched special interests there, people who are on one side of 
the issue or another, and they spend enormous sums of money, and they 
convince different Senators to tout

[[Page 2501]]

their way or different Congressmen to talk about their issue, and they 
dig in.
    I'll continue in the 4 years to continue to try to work to do so. My 
opponent said this is a bitterly divided time. 
It was pretty divided in the 2000 election. So, in other words, it's 
pretty divided during the 1990s as well. We're just in a period, and 
we've got to work to bring it out.
    My opponent keeps mentioning John 
McCain, and I'm glad he did. John McCain is for 
me for President because he understands I have the right view in winning 
the war on terror and that my plan will succeed in Iraq, and my opponent 
has got a plan of retreat and defeat in Iraq.

Wives and Daughters of the Candidates

    Mr. Schieffer. We've come, gentlemen, to 
our last question. And it occurred to me, as I came to this debate 
tonight, that the three of us share something. All three of us are 
surrounded by very strong women. We're all married to strong women. Each 
of us have two daughters that make us very proud. I'd like to ask each 
of you, what is the most important thing you've learned from these 
strong women?
    President Bush. To listen to them--[laughter]--to stand up straight 
and not scowl. [Laughter] I love the strong women around me. I can't 
tell you how much I love my wife and our daughters. I am--you know, 
it's really interesting, I tell the people on the campaign trail, when I 
asked Laura to marry me, she said, ``Fine, just so long as I never have 
to give a speech.'' I said, ``Okay, you got a deal.'' Fortunately, she 
didn't hold me to that deal, and she's out campaigning, along with our 
girls, and she speaks English a lot better than I do. [Laughter] I think 
people understand what she's saying.
    But they see a compassionate, strong, great First Lady in Laura 
Bush. I can't tell you how lucky I am when I met 
her in the backyard at Joe and Jan 
O'Neill in Midland, Texas. It was the classic 
backyard barbecue. O'Neill said, ``Come on over. I think you'll find 
somebody who might interest you.'' So I said, ``All right,'' popped over 
there. There was only four of us there, and not only did she interest 
me, I guess you could say it was love at first sight.
    Mr. Schieffer. Senator Kerry.
    Senator Kerry. Well, I guess the President 
and you and I are three examples of lucky people who married up. 
[Laughter] And some would say maybe me more so than others. [Laughter] 
But I can take it. [Laughter]
    Can I say, if I could just say a word about a woman that you didn't 
ask about, but my mom passed away a couple years ago, just before I was 
deciding to run. And she was in the hospital, and I went in to talk to 
her and tell her what I was thinking of doing. And she looked at me from 
her hospital bed, and she just looked at me, and she said, ``Remember, 
integrity, integrity, integrity.'' Those are the three words that she 
left me with.
    And my daughters and my wife are people who just are filled with 
that sense of what's right, what's wrong. They also kick me around. 
[Laughter] They keep me honest. They don't let me get away with 
anything. I can sometimes take myself too seriously. They surely don't 
let me do that. And I'm blessed, as I think the President is blessed. As 
I said last time, I've watched him with the First Lady, who I admire a 
great deal, and his daughters--he's a great father. And I think we're 
both very lucky.

Closing Statements

    Mr. Schieffer. Well, gentlemen, that 
brings us to the closing statements. Senator Kerry, I believe you're 
first.
    Senator Kerry. My fellow Americans, as you 
heard from Bob Schieffer a moment ago, America is being tested by 
division. More than ever, we need to be united as a country. And like 
Franklin Roosevelt, I don't care whether an idea is a Republican

[[Page 2502]]

idea or a Democrat idea. I just care whether it works for America and 
whether it's going to make us stronger.
    These are dangerous times. I believe I offer tested, strong 
leadership that can calm the waters of a troubled world. And I believe 
that we can, together, do things that are within the grasp of Americans. 
We can lift our schools up. We can create jobs that pay more than the 
jobs we're losing overseas. We can have health care for all Americans. 
We can further the cause of equality in our Nation.
    Let me just make it clear: I will never allow any country to have a 
veto over our security. Just as I fought for our country as a young man, 
with the same passion I will fight to defend this Nation that I love. 
And with faith in God and with conviction in the mission of America, I 
believe that we can reach higher. I believe we can do better. I think 
the greatest possibilities of our country, our dreams and our hopes, are 
out there just waiting for us to grab onto them.
    And I ask you to embark on that journey with me. I ask you for your 
trust. I ask you for your help. I ask you to allow me the privilege of 
leading this great Nation of ours, of helping us to be stronger here at 
home and to be respected again in the world and, most of all, to be 
safer forever.
    Thank you. Good night, and God bless the United States of America.
    Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President.
    President Bush. In the Oval Office, there's a painting by a friend 
of Laura and mine named--by Tom Lea. It's a west Texas painting, a painting of a mountain 
scene. And he said this about it, he said, ``Sarah and I live on the 
east side of the mountain. It's the sunrise side, not the sunset side. 
It's the side to see the day that is coming, not to see the day that is 
gone.'' I love the optimism in that painting because that's how I feel 
about America.
    You know, we've been through a lot together during the last 3\3/4\ 
years. We've come through a recession, a stock market decline, an attack 
on our country. And yet, because of the hard work of the American people 
and good policies, this economy is growing. Over the next 4 years, we'll 
make sure the economy continues to grow.
    We reformed our school system, and now there's an achievement gap in 
America that is beginning to close. Over the next 4 years, we'll 
continue to insist on excellence in every classroom in America so that 
our children have a chance to realize the great promise of America.
    Over the next 4 years, we'll continue to work to make sure health 
care is available and affordable. Over the next 4 years, we'll continue 
to rally the armies of compassion to help heal the hurt that exists in 
some of our country's neighborhoods.
    I'm optimistic that we'll win the war on terror, but I understand it 
requires firm resolve and clear purpose. We must never waver in the face 
of this enemy that--these ideologues of hate. And as we pursue the enemy 
wherever it exists, we'll also spread freedom and liberty. We've got 
great faith in the ability of liberty to transform societies, to convert 
hostile--a hostile world to a peaceful world. My hope for America is a 
prosperous America, a hopeful America, and a safer world.
    I want to thank you for listening tonight. I'm asking for your vote. 
God bless you.
    Mr. Schieffer. Thank you, Mr. President. 
Thank you, Senator Kerry. Well, that brings these debates to a close, 
but the campaign goes on. I want to wish both of you the very best of 
luck between now and election day.
    That's it for us from Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona. 
I'm Bob Schieffer of CBS News. Good night, everyone.

 Note: The debate began at 6 p.m. in Gammage Auditorium at Arizona State 
University. In his remarks, the President referred to former President 
Saddam Hussein of Iraq. Senator Kerry referred to Usama bin

[[Page 2503]]

Laden, leader of the Al Qaida terrorist organization.