    [Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: George W. Bush (2004, Book III)]
    [October 13, 2004]
    [Pages 2479-2503]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]

    Presidential Debate in Tempe, Arizona
    October 13, 2004

        Bob Schieffer. Good evening from Arizona
    State University in Tempe, Arizona. I'm Bob Schieffer of CBS News. I
    want to welcome you to the third and last of

    [[Page 2480]]

    the 2004 debates between President George Bush and Senator John Kerry.
        As Jim Lehrer told you before the first one, these debates are
    sponsored by the Commission on Presidential Debates. Tonight the topic
    will be domestic affairs, but the format will be the same as that first
    debate. I'll moderate our discussion under detailed rules agreed to by
    the candidates, but the questions and the areas to be covered were
    chosen by me. I have not told the candidates or anyone else what they
    are.
        To refresh your memory on the rules, I will ask a question. The
    candidate is allowed 2 minutes to answer. His opponent then has a minute
    and a half to offer a rebuttal. At my discretion, I can extend the
    discussion by offering each candidate an additional 30 seconds. A green
    light will come on to signal the candidate has 30 seconds left; a yellow
    light signals 15 seconds left; a red light means 5 seconds left. There
    is also a buzzer if it is needed. The candidates may not question each
    other directly. There are no opening statements, but there will be 2-
    minute closing statements.
        There is an audience here tonight, but they have agreed to remain
    silent, except for right now, when they join me in welcoming President
    George Bush and Senator John Kerry.
        Gentlemen, welcome to you both. By coin toss, the first question
    goes to Senator Kerry.

    Homeland Security

        Senator, I want to set the stage for this discussion by asking the
    question that I think hangs over all of our politics today and is
    probably on the minds of many people watching this debate tonight, and
    that is: Will our children and grandchildren ever live in a world as
    safe and secure as the world in which we grew up?
        Senator John Kerry. Well, first of all,
    Bob, thank you for moderating tonight. Thank you, Arizona State, for
    welcoming us. And thank you to the Presidential Commission for
    undertaking this enormous task. We're proud to be here. Mr. President,
    I'm glad to be here with you again to share similarities and differences
    with the American people.
        Will we ever be safe and secure again? Yes, we absolutely must be.
    That's the goal. Now, how do we achieve it is the most critical
    component of it. I believe that this President, regrettably, rushed us
    into a war, made decisions about foreign policy, pushed alliances away,
    and as a result, America is now bearing this extraordinary burden where
    we are not as safe as we ought to be.
        The measurement is not: Are we safer? The measurement is: Are we as
    safe as we ought to be? And there are a host of options that this
    President had available to him, like making sure that at all our ports
    in America, containers are inspected. Only 95 percent of them--95
    percent come in today uninspected. That's not good enough. People who
    fly on airplanes today--the cargo hold is not X-rayed, but the baggage
    is. That's not good enough. Firehouses don't have enough firefighters in
    them. Police officers are being cut from the streets of America because
    the President decided to cut the COPS program.
        So we can do a better job of homeland security. I can do a better
    job of waging a smarter, more effective war on terror and guarantee that
    we go after the terrorists. I will hunt them down, and we'll kill them.
    We'll capture them. We'll do what's ever necessary to be safe. But I
    pledge this to you, America: I will do it in the way that Franklin
    Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan and John Kennedy and others did, where we
    build the strongest alliances, where the world joins together, where we
    have the best intelligence, and where we are able, ultimately, to be
    more safe and secure.
        Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President, you have 90
    seconds.

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        President Bush. Bob, thank you very much.
    I want to thank Arizona State as well.
        Yes, we can be safe and secure if we stay on the offense against the
    terrorists and if we spread freedom and liberty around the world. I have
    got a comprehensive strategy to not only chase down Al Qaida, wherever
    it exists--and we're making progress; three-quarters of Al Qaida leaders
    have been brought to justice--but to make sure that countries who harbor
    terrorists are held to account. As a result of securing ourselves and
    ridding the Taliban out of Afghanistan, the Afghan people had elections
    this weekend. And the first voter was a 19-year-old woman. Think about
    that. Freedom is on the march. We held to account a terrorist regime in
    Saddam Hussein.
        In other words, in order to make sure we're secure, there must be a
    comprehensive plan. My opponent, just this
    weekend, talked about how terrorism could be reduced to a ``nuisance,''
    comparing it to prostitution and illegal gambling. I think that attitude
    and that point of view is dangerous. I don't think you can secure
    America for the long run if you don't have a comprehensive view as to
    how to defeat these people.
        At home, we'll do everything we can to protect the homeland. I
    signed the homeland security bill to better align our assets and
    resources. My opponent voted against it. We're
    doing everything we can to protect our borders and ports. But
    absolutely, we can be secure in the long run. It just takes good, strong
    leadership.
        Mr. Schieffer. Anything to add, Senator
    Kerry?
        Senator Kerry. Yes. When the President had
    an opportunity to capture or kill Usama bin Laden, he took his focus off
    of him, outsourced the job to Afghan warlords, and Usama bin Laden
    escaped. Six months after he said, ``Usama bin Laden must be caught,
    dead or alive,'' this President was asked, ``Where is Usama bin Laden?''
    He said, ``I don't know. I don't really think about him very much. I'm
    not that concerned.'' We need a President who stays deadly focused on
    the real war on terror.
        Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President.
        President Bush. Gosh, I don't think I ever said I'm not worried
    about Usama bin Laden. That's kind of one of
    those exaggerations. Of course, we're worried about Usama bin Laden.
    We're on the hunt after Usama bin Laden. We're using every asset at our
    disposal to get Usama bin Laden.
        My opponent said this war is a matter of
    intelligence and law enforcement. No, this is a--war is a matter of
    using every asset at our disposal to keep the American people protected.

    Flu Vaccine Shortage/Health Care

        Mr. Schieffer. New question, Mr.
    President, to you. We're talking about protecting ourselves from the
    unexpected, but the flu season is suddenly upon us. Flu kills thousands
    of people every year. Suddenly we find ourselves with a severe shortage
    of flu vaccine. How did that happen?
        President Bush. Bob, we relied upon a
    company out of England to provide about half of the flu vaccines for the
    United States citizen, and it turned out that the vaccine they were
    producing was contaminated. And so we took the right action and didn't
    allow contaminated medicine into our country. We're working with Canada
    to, hopefully--that they'll produce a--help us realize the vaccine
    necessary to make sure our citizens have got flu vaccinations during
    this upcoming season.
        My call to our fellow Americans is, if you're healthy, if you're
    younger, don't get a flu shot this year. Help us prioritize those who
    need to get the flu shot, the elderly and the young. The CDC,
    responsible for health in the United States, is setting those priorities
    and is allocating the flu vaccine accordingly. I haven't gotten a flu
    shot, and I don't intend to, because I want to make sure that those who
    are most vulnerable get treated.

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        We have a problem with litigation in the United States of America.
    Vaccine manufacturers are worried about getting sued, and so, therefore,
    they have backed off from providing this kind of vaccine. One of the
    reasons I'm such a strong believer in legal reform is so that people
    aren't afraid of producing a product that is necessary for the health of
    our citizens and then end up getting sued in a court of law.
        But the best thing we can do now, Bob, given the circumstances with
    the company in England, is for those of us who are younger and healthy,
    don't get a flu shot.
        Mr. Schieffer. Senator Kerry.
        Senator Kerry. This really underscores the
    problem with the American health care system. It's not working for the
    American family, and it's gotten worse under President Bush over the
    course of the last years. Five million Americans have lost their health
    insurance in this country. You got about a million right here in
    Arizona--just shy, 950,000--who have no health insurance at all. Eighty-
    two thousand Arizonians lost their health insurance under President
    Bush's watch. Two hundred and twenty-three thousand kids in Arizona have
    no health insurance at all. All across our country--go to Ohio, 1.4
    million Ohioans have no health insurance; 114,000 of them lost it under
    President Bush; Wisconsin, 82,000 Wisconsinites lost it under President
    Bush.
        This President has turned his back on the wellness of America, and
    there is no system. In fact, it's starting to fall apart, not because of
    lawsuits--though they are a problem, and John Edwards and I are
    committed to fixing them--but because of the larger issue that we don't
    cover Americans. Children across our country don't have health care.
    We're the richest country on the face of the planet, the only
    industrialized nation in the world not to do it. I have a plan to cover
    all Americans. We're going to make it affordable and accessible. We're
    going to let everybody buy into the same health care plan the Senators
    and Congressmen give themselves.
        Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President, would you
    like to add something?
        President Bush. I would, thank you. I want to remind people
    listening tonight that a plan is not a litany of complaints, and a plan
    is not to lay out programs that you can't pay for. He just said he wants everybody to be able to buy into the
    same plan that Senators and Congressman get. That costs the Government
    $7,700 per family. If every family in America signed up like the Senator
    suggested, it would cost us $5 trillion over 10 years. It's an empty
    promise. It's called bait and switch.
        Mr. Schieffer. Time is up.
        President Bush. Thank you.
        Senator Kerry. Actually, it's not an empty
    promise. It's really interesting because the President used that very
    plan as a reason for seniors to accept his prescription drug plan. He
    said, ``If it's good enough for the Congressmen and Senators to have
    choice, seniors ought to have choice.''
        What we do is we have choice. I choose Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Other
    Senators, other Congressman choose other programs. But the fact is we're
    going to help Americans be able to buy into it. Those that can afford it
    are going to buy in themselves. We're not giving this away for nothing.

    Paying for New Federal Spending/Taxes

        Mr. Schieffer. All right, Senator Kerry, a
    new question. Let's talk about economic security. You pledged during the
    last debate that you would not raise taxes on those making less than
    $200,000 a year. But the price of everything is going up, and we all
    know it. Health care costs, as you all are talking about, is
    skyrocketing, the cost of the war. My question is, how can you or any
    President, whoever is elected next time, keep that pledge without
    running this country deeper into debt and passing on more of the bills
    that we're running up to our children?

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        Senator Kerry. I'll tell you exactly how I
    can do it: by reinstating what President Bush took away, which is called
    pay as you go. During the 1990s, we had pay-as-you-go rules. If you were
    going to pass something in the Congress, you had to show where you were
    going to pay for it and how.
        President Bush has taken--he's the only President in history to do
    this. He's also the only President since--in 72 years to lose jobs, 1.6
    million jobs lost. He's the only President to have incomes of families
    go down for the last 3 years, the only President to see exports go down,
    the only President to see the lowest level of business investment in our
    country as it is today.
        Now, I'm going to reverse that. I'm going to change that. We're
    going to restore the fiscal discipline we had in the 1990s. Every plan
    that I have laid out, my health care plan, my plan for education, my
    plan for kids to be able to get better college loans, I've shown exactly
    how I'm going to pay for those. And we start--we don't do it
    exclusively, but we start by rolling back George Bush's unaffordable tax
    cut for the wealthiest people, people earning more than $200,000 a year,
    and we pass, hopefully, the McCain/Kerry commission, which identified
    some $60 billion that we can get. We shut the loophole which has
    American workers actually subsidizing the loss of their own job. They
    just passed an expansion of that loophole in the last few days, $43
    billion of giveaways, including favors to the oil and gas industry and
    to people importing ceiling fans from China.
        I'm going to stand up and fight for the American worker, and I'm
    going to do it in a way that's fiscally sound. I show how I pay for the
    health care, how we pay for the education. I have a manufacturing jobs
    credit. We pay for it by shutting that loophole overseas. We raise the
    student loans. I pay for it by changing the relationship with the banks.
    This President has never once vetoed one bill, the first President in
    100 years not to do that.
        Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President.
        President Bush. Well, his rhetoric doesn't match his record. He's
    been a Senator for 20 years. He voted to
    increase taxes 98 times. When they tried to reduce taxes, he voted
    against that 127 times. He talks about being a fiscal conservative or
    fiscally sound, but he voted over--he voted 277 times to waive the
    budget caps, which would have cost the taxpayers $4.2 trillion. He talks
    about pay-go--I'll tell you what pay-go means when you're a Senator from
    Massachusetts, when you're a colleague of Ted Kennedy: Pay-go means you pay, and he goes ahead and spends.
        He's proposed $2.2 trillion of new
    spending, and yet the so-called tax on the rich, which is also a tax on
    many small-business owners in America, raises 600 million by our
    account--billion--800 billion by his account. There is a tax gap. And
    guess who usually ends up filling the tax gap? The middle class.
        I proposed a detailed budget, Bob. I sent
    up my budget man to the Congress, and he says, ``Here's how we're going
    to reduce the deficit in half by 5 years.'' It requires pro-growth
    policies that grow our economy and fiscal sanity in the Halls of
    Congress.

    Jobs/Education

        Mr. Schieffer. Let's go to a new question,
    Mr. President, 2 minutes. And let's continue on jobs. You know, there
    are all kind of statistics out there, but I want to bring it down to an
    individual. Mr. President, what do you say to someone in this country
    who has lost his job to someone overseas who is being paid a fraction of
    what that job paid here in the United States?
        President Bush. I say, Bob, ``I've got
    policies to continue to grow our economy and create the jobs of the 21st
    century, and here's some help for you to go get an education. Here's
    some help for you to go to a community college. We've expanded trade
    adjustment assistance. We want to help pay for you to gain the skills
    necessary to fill the jobs of the 21st century.''

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        You know, there's a lot of talk about how to keep the economy
    growing, and we talk about fiscal matters. But perhaps the best way to
    keep jobs here in America and to keep this economy growing is to make
    sure our education system works.
        I went to Washington to solve problems. And I saw a problem in the
    public education system in America. They were just shuffling too many
    kids through the system, year after year, grade after grade, without
    learning the basics. And so we said, ``Let's raise the standards. We're
    spending more money, but let's raise the standards and measure early and
    solve problems now, before it's too late.''
        You know, education is how to help the person who has lost a job.
    Education is how to make sure this--we've got a workforce that's
    productive and competitive. You got--4 more years, I've got more to do
    to continue to raise standards, to continue to reward teachers and
    school districts that are working, to emphasize math and science in the
    classrooms, to continue to expand Pell grants, to make sure that people
    have an opportunity to start their career with a college diploma.
        And so to the person you talked to, I say, ``Here's some help.
    Here's some trade adjustment assistance money for you to go to a
    community college in your neighborhood, a community college which is
    providing the skills necessary to fill the jobs of the 21st century.''
    And that's what we'd say to that person.
        Mr. Schieffer. Senator Kerry.
        Senator Kerry. I want you to notice how
    the President switched away from jobs and started talking about
    education principally. Let me come back in one moment to that, but I
    want to speak for a second, if I can, to what the President said about
    fiscal responsibility. Being lectured by the President on fiscal
    responsibility is a little bit like Tony Soprano talking to me about law
    and order in this country. [Laughter]
        This President has taken a $5.6 trillion surplus and turned it into
    deficits as far as the eye can see. Health care costs for the average
    American have gone up 64 percent. Tuitions have gone up 35 percent,
    gasoline prices up 30 percent. Medicare premiums went up 17 percent a
    few days ago. Prescription drugs are up 12 percent a year. But guess
    what, America? The wages of Americans have gone down. The jobs that are
    being created in Arizona right now are paying about $13,700 less than
    the jobs that we're losing, and the President just walks on by this
    problem.
        The fact is that he's cut job training money. A billion dollars was
    cut. They only added a little bit back this year because it's an
    election year. They've cut the Pell grants and the Perkins loans to help
    kids be able to go to college. They've cut the training money. They've
    wound up not even extending unemployment benefits and not even extending
    health care to those people who are unemployed. I'm going to do those
    things because that's what right in America: Help workers to transition
    in every respect.

    Outsourcing Jobs

        Mr. Schieffer. New question to you,
    Senator Kerry, 2 minutes, and it's still on jobs. You know, many experts
    say that a President really doesn't have much control over jobs. For
    example, if someone invents a machine that does the work of five people,
    that's progress. That's not the President's fault. So I ask you, is it
    fair to blame the administration entirely for this loss of jobs?
        Senator Kerry. I don't blame them entirely
    for it. I blame the President for the things the President could do that
    has an impact on it. Outsourcing is going to happen. I've acknowledged
    that in union halls across the country. I've had shop stewards stand up
    and say, ``Will you promise me you're going to stop all this
    outsourcing?'' And I've looked them in the eye and I've said, ``No, I
    can't do that.''
        What I can promise you is that I will make the playing field as fair
    as possible, that I will, for instance, make certain that

    [[Page 2485]]

    with respect to the tax system, that you as a worker in America are not
    subsidizing the loss of your job. Today, if you're an American business,
    you actually get a benefit for going overseas. You get to defer your
    taxes. So if you're looking at a competitive world, you say to yourself,
    ``Hey, I do better overseas than I do here in America.'' That's not
    smart. I don't want American workers subsidizing the loss of their own
    job. And when I'm President, we're going to shut that loophole in a
    nanosecond, and we're going to use that money to lower corporate tax
    rates in America for all corporations 5 percent. And we're going to have
    a manufacturing jobs credit and a job hiring credit so we actually help
    people be able to hire here.
        The second thing that we can do is provide a fair trade playing
    field. This President didn't stand up for Boeing when Airbus was
    violating international rules with subsidies. He discovered Boeing
    during the course of this campaign after I've been talking about it for
    months. The fact is that the President had an opportunity to stand up
    and take on China for currency manipulation. There are companies that
    wanted to petition the administration. They were told, ``Don't even
    bother. We're not going to listen to it.''
        The fact is that there have been markets shut to us that we haven't
    stood up and fought for. I'm going to fight for a fair trade playing
    field for the American worker. And I will fight for the American worker
    just as hard as I fight for my own job. That's what the American worker
    wants. And if we do that, we can have an impact. Plus, we need fiscal
    discipline. Restore fiscal discipline, we'll do a lot better.
        Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President.
        President Bush. Whoo! Let me start with the Pell grants. In his last
    litany of misstatements, he said we cut Pell
    grants. We've increased Pell grants by a million students. That's a
    fact.
        Here he talks to the workers; let me talk
    to the workers. You got more money in your pocket as a result of the tax
    relief we passed and he opposed. If you have a child, you got a $1,000
    child credit. That's money in your pocket. If you're married, we reduced
    the marriage penalty. The code ought to encourage marriage, not
    discourage marriage. We created a 10-percent bracket to help lower
    income Americans. A family of four making 40,000 received about $1,700
    in tax relief. It's your money. The way my opponent talks, he said we're
    going to spend the Government's money. No, we're spending your money.
    And when you have more money in your pocket, you're able to better
    afford things you want. I believe the role of Government is to stand
    side by side with our citizens to help them realize their dreams, not
    tell citizens how to live their lives.
        My opponent talks about fiscal sanity. His
    record in the United States Senate does not match his rhetoric. He voted
    to increase taxes 98 times and to bust the budget 277 times.
        Mr. Schieffer. Senator Kerry.
        Senator Kerry. Bob, anybody can play with
    these votes; everybody knows that. I have supported or voted for tax
    cuts over 600 times. I broke with my party in order to balance the
    budget, and Ronald Reagan signed into law the tax cut that we voted for.
    I voted for IRA tax cuts. I voted for small-business tax cuts.
        But you know why the Pell grants have gone up in their numbers?
    Because more people qualified for them, because they don't have money.
    But they're not getting the $5,100 the President promised them. They're
    getting less money. There are more people who qualify. That's not what
    we want.
        President Bush. Senator, no one is playing with your votes. You
    voted to increase taxes 98 times. When they voted--when they proposed
    reducing taxes, you voted against it 126 times. You voted to violate the
    budget caps 277 times. You know, there's a mainstream in American
    politics. You sit right on the far left bank. As a

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    matter of fact, your record is such that Ted Kennedy, your colleague, is the conservative Senator from
    Massachusetts.

    Same-Sex Marriage

        Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President, let's get
    back to economic issues. But let's shift to some other questions here.
    Both of you are opposed to gay marriage. But to understand how you have
    come to that conclusion, I want to ask you a more basic question. Do you
    believe homosexuality is a choice?
        President Bush. You know, Bob, I don't
    know. I just don't know. I do know that we have a choice to make in
    America, and that is to treat people with tolerance and respect and
    dignity. It's important that we do that. I also know, in a free society,
    people, consenting adults, can live the way they want to live. And
    that's to be honored.
        But as we respect someone's rights and as we profess tolerance, we
    shouldn't change--or have to change our basic views on the sanctity of
    marriage. I believe in the sanctity of marriage. I think it's very
    important that we protect marriage as an institution between a man and a
    woman.
        I proposed a constitutional amendment. The reason I did so was
    because I was worried that activist judges are actually defining the
    definition of marriage. And the surest way to protect marriage between a
    man and woman is to amend the Constitution. It has also the benefit of
    allowing citizens to participate in the process. After all, when you
    amend the Constitution, State legislatures must participate in the
    ratification of the Constitution.
        I'm deeply concerned that judges are making those decisions and not
    the citizenry of the United States. You know, Congress passed a law
    called DOMA, the Defense of Marriage Act. My opponent was against it. It basically protected States from the
    action of one State to another. It also defined marriage as between a
    man and a woman. But I'm concerned that that will get overturned, and if
    it gets overturned, then we'll end up with marriage being defined by
    courts. And I don't think that's in our Nation's interest.
        Mr. Schieffer. Senator Kerry.
        Senator Kerry. We're all God's children,
    Bob, and I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a
    lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was. She's being
    who she was born as. I think if you talk to anybody, it's not choice.
    I've met people who've struggled with this for years, people who were in
    a marriage because they were living a sort of convention, and they
    struggled with it. And I've met wives who are supportive of their
    husbands, or vice versa, when they finally sort of broke out and allowed
    themselves to live who they were, who they felt God had made them. I
    think we have to respect that.
        The President and I share the belief that marriage is between a man
    and a woman. I believe that. I believe marriage is between a man and a
    woman. But I also believe that because we are the United States of
    America, we're a country with a great, unbelievable Constitution, with
    rights that we afford people, that you can't discriminate in the
    workplace. You can't discriminate in the rights that you afford people.
    You can't disallow someone the right to visit their partner in a
    hospital. You have to allow people to transfer property, which is why
    I'm for partnership rights and so forth.
        Now, with respect to DOMA and the marriage laws, the States have
    always been able to manage those laws, and they're proving today, every
    State, that they can manage them adequately.

    Abortion

        Mr. Schieffer. Senator Kerry, a new
    question for you. The New York Times reports that some Catholic
    archbishops are telling their church members that it would be a sin to
    vote for a candidate like you because you support a woman's right to
    choose an

    [[Page 2487]]

    abortion and unlimited stem cell research. What is your reaction to
    that?
        Senator Kerry. I respect their views. I
    completely respect their views. I am a Catholic, and I grew up learning
    how to respect those views. But I disagree with them, as do many. I
    believe that I can't legislate or transfer to another American citizen
    my article of faith. What is an article of faith for me is not something
    that I can legislate on somebody who doesn't share that article of
    faith. I believe that choice is a woman's choice. It's between a woman,
    God, and her doctor, and that's why I support that.
        Now, I will not allow somebody to come in and change Roe v. Wade.
    The President has never said whether or not he would do that, but we
    know from the people he's tried to appoint to the court, he wants to. I
    will not. I will defend the right of Roe v. Wade.
        Now, with respect to religion, you know, as I said, I grew up a
    Catholic. I was an altar boy. I know that throughout my life, this has
    made a difference to me. And as President Kennedy said when he ran for
    President, he said, ``I'm not running to be a Catholic President. I'm
    running to be a President who happens to be Catholic.''
        Now, my faith affects everything that I do and choose. There's a
    great passage of the Bible that says, ``What does it mean, my brother,
    to say you have faith, if there are no deeds? Faith without works is
    dead.'' And I think that everything you do in public life has to be
    guided by your faith, affected by your faith, but without transferring
    it in any official way to other people. That's why I fight against
    poverty. That's why I fight to clean up the environment and protect this
    Earth. That's why I fight for equality and justice. All of those things
    come out of that fundamental teaching and belief of faith.
        But I know this, that President Kennedy, in his Inaugural Address,
    told all of us that, ``Here on Earth, God's work must truly be our
    own.'' And that's what we have to--so I think that's the test of public
    service.
        Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President.
        President Bush. I think it's important to promote a culture of life.
    I think a hospitable society is a society where every being counts and
    every person matters. I believe the ideal world is one in which every
    child is protected in law and welcomed to life. I understand there's
    great differences on this issue of abortion, but I believe reasonable
    people can come together and put good law in place that will help reduce
    the number of abortions.
        Take, for example, the ban on partial-birth abortion. It's a brutal
    practice. People from both political parties came together in the Halls
    of Congress and voted overwhelmingly to ban that practice. It made a lot
    of sense. My opponent, in that he's out of the
    mainstream, voted against that law.
        What I'm saying is, is that as we promote life and promote a culture
    of life, surely there are ways we can work together to reduce the number
    of abortions: Continue to promote adoption laws--that's a great
    alternative to abortion; continue to fund and promote maternity group
    homes. I will continue to promote abstinence programs. At the last
    debate, my opponent said his wife was involved with those programs. That's great,
    and I appreciate that very much. All of us ought to be involved with
    programs that provide a viable alternative to abortion.

    Health Care Costs

        Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President, let's have a
    new question. It goes to you, and let's get back to economic issues.
    Health insurance costs have risen over 36 percent over the last 4 years,
    according to the Washington Post. We're paying more; we're getting less.
    I would like to ask you, who bears responsibility for this? Is it the
    Government? Is it the insurance companies? Is it the lawyers? Is it the
    doctors? Is it the administration?

    [[Page 2488]]

        President Bush. Gosh, I sure hope it's not the administration.
    [Laughter] No, there is a--look, there's a systemic problem. Health care
    costs are on the rise because the consumers are not involved in the
    decisionmaking process. Most health care costs are covered by third
    parties, and therefore, the actual user of health care is not the
    purchaser of health care. And there's no market forces involved with
    health care. It's one of the reasons I'm a strong believer in what they
    call health savings accounts. These are accounts that allow somebody to
    buy a low-premium, high-deductible catastrophic plan and couple it with
    tax-free savings. Businesses can contribute; employees can contribute on
    a contractual basis. But this is a way to make sure people are actually
    involved with the decisionmaking process on health care.
        Secondly, I do believe the lawsuits--I don't believe, I know--that
    the lawsuits are causing health care costs to rise in America. That's
    why I'm such a strong believer in medical liability reform. At the last
    debate, my opponent said, ``Well, they only--
    these lawsuits only cause costs to go up by one percent.'' Well, he
    didn't include the defensive practice of medicine that costs the Federal
    Government some $28 billion a year and costs our society between 60 and
    100 billion dollars a year.
        Thirdly, one of the reasons why there's still high costs in medicine
    is because this is the--they don't use information technology. It's like
    if you looked at the--it's the equivalent of the buggy-and-horse days
    compared to other industries here in America. And so we've got to
    introduce high technology into health care. We're beginning to do it.
    We're changing the language. We want there to be electronic medical
    records to cut down on error as well as to reduce costs. People tell me
    that when the health care field is fully integrated with information
    technology, it will wring some 20 percent of the costs out of the
    system.
        And finally, moving generic drugs to the market quicker. So, those
    are four ways to help control the costs in health care.
        Mr. Schieffer. Senator Kerry.
        Senator Kerry. The reason health care
    costs are getting higher--one of the principal reasons is that this
    administration has stood in the way of commonsense efforts that would
    have reduced the costs. Let me give you a prime example. In the Senate,
    we passed the right of Americans to import drugs from Canada. But the
    President and his friends took it out in the House, and now you don't
    have that right. The President blocked you from the right to have less
    expensive drugs from Canada.
        We also wanted Medicare to be able to negotiate bulk purchasing. The
    VA does that. The VA provides lower cost drugs to our veterans. We could
    have done that in Medicare. Medicare is paid for by the American
    taxpayer. Medicare belongs to you. Medicare is for seniors who are--many
    of them--on fixed income, to lift them out of poverty. But rather than
    help you, the taxpayer, have lower cost, rather than help seniors have
    less expensive drugs, the President made it illegal--illegal--for
    Medicare to actually go out and bargain for lower prices. Result: $139
    billion windfall profit to the drug companies coming out of your
    pockets. That's a large part of your 17-percent increase in Medicare
    premiums. When I'm President, I'm sending that back to Congress, and
    we're going to get a real prescription drug benefit.
        Now, we also have people sicker because they don't have health
    insurance. So whether it's diabetes or cancer, they come to the
    hospitals later, and it costs America more. We've got to have health
    care for all Americans.
        Mr. Schieffer. Go ahead, Mr. President.
        President Bush. I think it's important, since he talked about the Medicare plan--he's been in the United
    States Senate for 20 years. He has no record on reforming

    [[Page 2489]]

    of health care, no record at all. He introduced some 300 bills, and he's
    passed 5--no record of leadership.
        I came to Washington to solve problems. I was deeply concerned about
    seniors having to choose between prescription drugs and food, and so I
    led. And in 2006, our seniors will get a prescription drug coverage in
    Medicare.
        Mr. Schieffer. Senator Kerry, 30 seconds.
        Senator Kerry. Once again, the President
    is misleading America. I've actually passed 56 individual bills that
    I've personally written. And in addition to that, they're not always
    under my name; there is amendments on certain bills.
        But more importantly, with respect to the question of ``no record,''
    I helped write--I did write--I was one of the original authors of the
    early childhood health care and the expansion of health care that we did
    in the middle of the 1990s. And I'm very proud of that. So the
    President's wrong.

    Senator's Health Care Plan

        Mr. Schieffer. Let me direct the next
    question to you, Senator Kerry, and again, let's stay on health care.
    You have, as you have proposed and as the President has commented on
    tonight, proposed a massive plan to extend health care coverage to
    children. You're also talking about the Government picking up a big part
    of the catastrophic bills that people get at the hospital. And you have
    said that you can pay for this by rolling back the President's tax cut
    on the upper two percent.
        Senator Kerry. That's correct.
        Mr. Schieffer. You heard the President say
    earlier tonight that it's going to cost a whole lot more money than
    that. I just ask you, where are you going to get the money?
        Senator Kerry. Well, two leading national news networks have both
    said the President's characterization of my health care plan is
    incorrect. One called it fiction. The other called it untrue. The fact
    is that my health care plan, America, is very simple. It gives you the
    choice. I don't force you to do anything. It's not a Government plan.
    The Government doesn't require you to do anything. You choose your
    doctor. You choose your plan. If you don't want to take the offer of the
    plan that I want to put forward, you don't have to. You can keep what
    you have today, keep a high deductible, keep high premiums, keep a high
    co-pay, keep low benefits. But I got a better plan, and I don't think a
    lot of people are going to want to keep what they have today.
        Here's what I do. We take over Medicaid children from the States so
    that every child in America is covered. And in exchange, if the States
    want to--they're not forced to; they can choose to--they cover
    individuals up to 300 percent of poverty. It's their choice. I think
    they'll choose it, because it's a net plus of $5 billion to them.
        We allow you--if you choose to; you don't have to--but we give you
    broader competition to allow you to buy into the same health care plan
    that Senators and Congressmen give themselves. If it's good enough for
    us, it's good enough for every American. I believe that your health care
    is just as important as any politician in Washington, DC. If you want to
    buy into it, you can. We give you broader competition. That helps lower
    prices.
        In addition to that, we're going to allow people 55 to 64 to buy
    into Medicare early. And most importantly, we give small business a 50-
    percent tax credit so that after we lower the cost of health care, they
    also get, whether they're self-employed or a small business, a lower
    cost to be able to cover their employees.
        Now, what happens is, when you begin to get people covered like
    that--for instance, in diabetes, if you diagnose diabetes early, you
    could save $50 billion in the health care system of America by avoiding
    surgery and dialysis. It works, and I'm going to offer it to America.
        Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President.

    [[Page 2490]]

        President Bush. In all due respect, I'm not so sure it's credible to
    quote leading news organizations about--well, never mind. Anyway--
    [laughter]--let me quote the Lewin report. The Lewin report is a group
    of folks who are not politically affiliated. They analyzed the
    Senator's plan. It costs $1.2 trillion. The
    Lewin report accurately noted that there are going to be 20 million
    people--over 20 million people added to Government-controlled health
    care. It will be the largest increase in Government health care ever.
        If you raise the Medicaid to 300 percent, it provides an incentive
    for small businesses not to provide private insurance to their
    employees. Why should they insure somebody when the Government is going
    to insure for them? It's estimated that 8 million people will go from
    private insurance to Government insurance.
        We have a fundamental difference of opinion. I think Government-run
    health will lead to poor quality health, will lead to rationing, will
    lead to less choice. Once a health care program ends up in a line item
    in the Federal Government budget, it leads to more controls. And just
    look at other countries that have tried to have federally controlled
    health care. They have poor quality health care. Our health care system
    is the envy of the world because we believe in making sure that the
    decisions are made by doctors and patients, not by officials in the
    Nation's Capital.
        Mr. Schieffer. Senator.
        Senator Kerry. The President just said that Government-run health
    care results in poor quality. Now, maybe that explains why he hasn't
    fully funded the VA, and the VA hospital is having trouble, and veterans
    are complaining. Maybe that explains why Medicare patients are
    complaining about being pushed off of Medicare--he doesn't adequately
    fund it.
        But let me just say to America, I am not proposing a Government-run
    program. That's not what I have. I have Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Senators
    and Congressmen have a wide choice. Americans ought to have it too.
        Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President.
        President Bush. You talk about the VA. We've increased VA funding by
    22 billion in the 4 years since I've been President. That's twice the
    amount that my predecessor increased VA
    funding. Of course, we're meeting our obligation to our veterans, and
    the veterans know that. We're expanding veterans' health care throughout
    the country. We're aligning facilities where the veterans live now.
    Veterans are getting very good health care under my administration, and
    they will continue to do so during the next 4 years.

    Social Security

        Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President, the next
    question is to you. We all know that Social Security is running out of
    money, and it has to be fixed. You have proposed to fix it by letting
    people put some of the money collected to pay benefits into private
    savings accounts. But the critics are saying that's going to mean
    finding a trillion dollars over the next 10 years to continue paying
    benefits as those accounts are being set up. So where do you get the
    money? Are you going to have to increase the deficit by that much over
    10 years?
        President Bush. Bob, first let me make
    sure that every senior listening today understands that when we're
    talking about reforming Social Security, that they'll still get their
    checks. I remember the 2000 campaign; people said, ``If George W. gets
    elected, your check will be taken away.'' Well, people got their checks,
    and they will continue to get their checks.
        There is a problem for our youngsters, a real problem, and if we
    don't act today, the problem will be valued in the trillions. And so I
    think we need to think differently. We'll honor our commitment to our
    seniors, but for young--for our children and our grandchildren, we need
    to have a different strategy. In recognizing that, I called together a
    group of our fellow citizens to

    [[Page 2491]]

    study the issue. It was a committee chaired by the late Senator Daniel
    Patrick Moynihan of New York, a Democrat. And they came up with a
    variety of ideas for people to look at.
        I believe that younger workers ought to be allowed to take some of
    their own money and put it in a personal savings account, because I
    understand that they need to get better rates of return than the rates
    of return being given in the current Social Security trust. And the
    compounding rate of interest effect will make it more likely that the
    Social Security system is solvent for our children and our
    grandchildren.
        I will work with Republicans and Democrats. This will be a vital
    issue in my second term. It is an issue that I'm willing to take on. And
    so I'll bring Republicans and Democrats together, and we're of course
    going to have to consider the costs. But I want to warn my fellow
    citizens the cost of doing nothing, the cost of saying the current
    system is okay, far exceeds the cost of trying to make sure we save the
    system for our children.
        Mr. Schieffer. Senator Kerry.
        Senator Kerry. You just heard the
    President say that young people ought to be able to take money out of
    Social Security and put it in their own accounts. Now, my fellow
    Americans, that's an invitation to disaster. The CBO said very clearly
    that if you were to adopt the President's plan, there will be a $2
    trillion hole in Social Security, because today's workers pay into the
    system for today's retirees. And the CBO said--that's the Congressional
    Budget Office; it's bipartisan--they said that there would have to be a
    cut in benefits of 25 to 40 percent.
        Now, the President has never explained to America--ever; hasn't done
    it tonight--where does the transitional money, that $2 trillion, come
    from? He's already got $3 trillion, according to the Washington Post, of
    expenses that he's put on the line from his convention and the promises
    of this campaign, none of which are paid for--not one of them are paid
    for.

        The fact is that the President is driving the largest deficits in
    American history. He's broken the pay-as-you-go rules. I have a record
    of fighting for fiscal responsibility. In 1985, I was one of the first
    Democrats--broke with my party--we balanced the budget in the nineties.
    We paid down the debt for 2 years. And that's what we're going to do.
    We're going to protect Social Security. I will not privatize it. I will
    not cut the benefits. And we're going to be fiscally responsible, and we
    will take care of Social Security.

        Mr. Schieffer. Let me just stay on Social
    Security with a new question for Senator Kerry, because Senator Kerry,
    you have just said you will not cut benefits. Alan Greenspan, the
    Chairman of the Federal Reserve, says there's no way that Social
    Security can pay retirees what we have promised them unless we
    recalibrate. What he's suggesting, we're going to have to cut benefits
    or we're going to have to raise retirement age; we may have to take some
    other reform. But if you've just said you've promised no changes, does
    that mean you're just going to leave this as a problem, another problem,
    for our children to solve?

        Senator Kerry. Not at all. Absolutely not,
    Bob. This is the same thing we heard--I remember I appeared on ``Meet
    the Press'' with Tim Russert in 1990-something--we heard the same thing.
    We fixed it. In fact, we put together a $5.6 trillion surplus in the
    nineties that was for the purpose of saving Social Security. If you take
    the tax cut that the President of the United States has given--President
    Bush gave to Americans in the top 1 percent of America, just that tax
    cut that went to the top 1 percent of America would have saved Social
    Security until the year 2075. The President decided to give it to the
    wealthiest Americans in a tax cut.

    [[Page 2492]]

        Now, Alan Greenspan, who I think has done a terrific job in monetary
    policy, supports the President's tax cut. I don't. I support it for the
    middle class, not that part of it that goes to people earning more than
    $200,000 a year. And when I roll it back and we invest in the things
    that I've talked about to move our economy, we're going to grow
    sufficiently that we begin to cut the deficit in half, and we get back
    to where we were at the end of the 1990s when we balanced the budget and
    paid down the debt of this country. Now, we can do that.
        Now, if later on, after a period of time, we find that Social
    Security is in trouble, then we'll pull together the top experts of the
    country. We'll do exactly what we did in the 1990s, and we'll make
    whatever adjustment is necessary. But the first and most important thing
    is to start creating jobs in America. The jobs the President is creating
    pay $9,000 less than the jobs that we're losing. And this is the first
    President in 72 years to preside over an economy in America that has
    lost jobs--1.6 million jobs. Eleven other Presidents--six Democrats and
    five Republicans--had wars, had recessions, had great difficulties. None
    of them lost jobs the way this President has.
        I have a plan to put America back to work. And if we're fiscally
    responsible and put America back to work, we're going to fix Social
    Security.
        Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President.
        President Bush. He forgot to tell you he
    voted to tax Social Security benefits more than one time. I didn't hear
    any plan to fix Social Security. I heard more of the same. He talks
    about middle-class tax cuts; that's exactly where the tax cuts went.
    Most of the tax cuts went to low- and middle-income Americans. And now
    the Tax Code is more fair; 20 percent of the upper income people pay
    about 80 percent of the taxes in America today because of how we
    structured the tax cuts. People listening out there know the benefits of
    the tax cuts we passed. If you have a child, you got tax relief. If
    you're married, you got tax relief. If you pay any tax at all, you got
    tax relief, all of which was opposed by my opponent. And the tax relief
    was important to spur consumption and investment to get us out of this
    recession.
        People need to remember, 6 months prior to my arrival, the stock
    market started to go down, and it was one of the largest declines in our
    history. And then we had a recession, and we got attacked, which cost us
    one million jobs. But we acted. I led the Congress. We passed tax
    relief. And now this economy is growing. We added 1.9 million new jobs
    over the last 13 months.
        Sure, there's more work to do. But the way to make sure our economy
    grows is not to raise taxes on small-business owners. It's not to
    increase the scope of the Federal Government. It's to make sure we have
    fiscal sanity and keep taxes low.

    Immigration/Border Security

        Mr. Schieffer. Let's go to a new question,
    Mr. President. I got more e-mail this week on this question than any
    other question, and it is about immigration. I'm told that at least
    8,000 people cross our borders illegally every day. Some people believe
    this is a security issue, as you know. Some believe it's an economic
    issue. Some see it as a human rights issue. How do you see it, and what
    do we need to do about it?
        President Bush. I see it as a serious problem. I see it as a
    security issue; I see it as an economic issue; and I see it as a human
    rights issue. We're increasing the border security of the United States.
    We've got 1,000 more Border Patrol agents on the southern border. We're
    using new equipment. We're using unmanned vehicles to spot people coming
    across, and we'll continue to do so over the next 4 years. This is a
    subject I'm very familiar with. After all, I was a border Governor for a
    while.

    [[Page 2493]]

        Many people are coming to this country for economic reasons. They're
    coming here to work. If you can make 50 cents in the heart of Mexico,
    for example, or make $5 here in America--5.15--you're going to come here
    if you're worth your salt, if you want to put food on the table for your
    families. And that's what's happening.
        And so, in order to take pressure off the border, in order to make
    the borders more secure, I believe there ought to be a temporary-worker
    card that allows a willing worker and a willing employer to mate up--so
    long as there's not an American willing to do the job--to join up in
    order to be able to fulfill the employer's needs. That has the benefit
    of making sure our employers aren't breaking the law as they try to fill
    their workforce needs. It makes sure that the people coming across the
    border are humanely treated, that they're not kept in the shadows of our
    society, that they're able to go back and forth to see their families.
    See, the card will have a period of time attached to it.
        It also means it takes pressure off the border. If somebody is
    coming here to work with a card, it means they're not going to have to
    sneak across the border. It means our Border Patrol will be more likely
    to be able to focus on doing their job.
        Now, it's very important for our citizens to also know that I don't
    believe we ought to have amnesty. I don't think we ought to reward
    illegal behavior. There are plenty of people standing in line to become
    a citizen, and we ought not to crowd these people ahead of them in line.
    If they want to become a citizen, they can stand in line too. And here's
    where my opponent and I differ. In September
    2003, he supported amnesty for illegal aliens.
        Mr. Schieffer. Time's up.
        Senator.
        Senator Kerry. Let me just answer one part
    of that last question quickly, and then I'll come to immigration. The
    American middle-class family isn't making it right now, Bob, and what
    the President said about the tax cuts have been wiped out by the
    increase in health care, the increase in gasoline, the increase in
    tuitions, the increase in prescription drugs. The fact is the take-home
    pay of a typical American family as a share of national income is lower
    than it's been since 1929. And the take-home pay of the richest 1
    percent of Americans is the highest it's been since 1928. Under
    President Bush, the middle class has seen their tax burden go up, and
    the wealthiest tax burden has gone down. Now, that's wrong.
        Now, with respect to immigration reform, the President broke his
    promise on immigration reform. He said he would reform it. Four years
    later, he's now promising another plan. Here's what I'll do. Number one,
    the borders are more leaking today than they were before 9/11. The fact
    is we haven't done what we need to do to toughen up our borders, and I
    will.
        Secondly, we need a guest-worker program, but if it's all we have,
    it's not going to solve the problem. The second thing we need is to
    crack down on illegal hiring. It's against the law in the United States
    to hire people illegally, and we ought to be enforcing that law
    properly.
        And thirdly, we need an earned legalization program for people
    who've been here for a long time, stayed out of trouble, got a job, paid
    their taxes, and their kids are American. We've got to start moving them
    toward full citizenship, out of the shadows.
        Mr. Schieffer. Do you want to respond, Mr.
    President?
        President Bush. Well, to say that the borders are not as protected
    as they were prior to September the 11th shows he doesn't know the borders. They're much better protected
    today than they were when I was the Governor of Texas. We've got much
    more manpower, much more equipment there. He just doesn't understand how
    the borders work, evidently, to say that. That is an outrageous claim.
    And we'll continue

    [[Page 2494]]

    to protect our borders. We'll continue to increase manpower and
    equipment.
        Mr. Schieffer. Senator.
        Senator Kerry. Four thousand people a day
    are coming across the border. The fact is that we now have people from
    the Middle East--allegedly--coming across the border. And we're not
    doing what we ought to do in terms of the technology. We have iris
    identification technology. We have thumbprint, fingerprint technology
    today. We can know who the people are, that they're really the people
    they say they are, when they cross the border. We could speed it up.
    There are huge delays. The fact is, our borders are not as secure as
    they ought to be, and I'll make them secure.

    Minimum Wage/Education/Jobs

        Mr. Schieffer. Next question to you,
    Senator Kerry. The gap between rich and poor is growing wider. More
    people are dropping into poverty. Yet the minimum wage has been stuck
    at, what, $5.15 an hour now for about 7 years. Is it time to raise it?
        Senator Kerry. Well, I'm glad you raised
    that question. It's long-overdue time to raise the minimum wage. And
    America, this is one of those issues that separates the President and
    myself. We have fought to try to raise the minimum wage in the last
    years. But the Republican leadership of the House and Senate won't even
    let us have a vote on it. We're not allowed to vote on it. They don't
    want to raise the minimum wage.
        The minimum wage is the lowest minimum wage value it has been in our
    Nation in 50 years. If we raise the minimum wage, which I will do over
    several years to $7 an hour, 9.2 million women who are trying to raise
    their families would earn another $3,800 a year. The President has
    denied 9.2 million women $3,800 a year, but he doesn't hesitate to fight
    for $136,000 to a millionaire. One percent of America got $89 billion
    last year in a tax cut. But people working hard, playing by the rules,
    trying to take care of their kids--family values that we're supposed to
    value so much in America--I'm tired of politicians who talk about family
    values and don't value families. What we need to do is raise the minimum
    wage.
        We also need to hold onto equal pay. Women work for 76 cents on the
    dollar for the same work that men do. That's not right in America. And
    we have an initiative that we were working on to raise women's pay.
    They've cut it off. They've stopped it. They don't enforce these kinds
    of things. I think that it is a matter of fundamental right that if we
    raise the minimum wage, 15 million Americans would be positively
    affected. We'd put money into the hands of people who work hard, who
    obey the rules, who play for the American Dream. And if we did that,
    we'd have more consumption ability in America, which is what we need
    right now in order to kick our economy into gear. I will fight tooth and
    nail to pass the minimum wage.
        Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President.
        President Bush. Actually, Mitch McConnell had a minimum wage plan that I supported that would
    have increased the minimum wage.
        But let me talk about what's really important for the worker you're
    referring to, and that's to make sure the education system works, is to
    make sure we raise standards. Listen, the No Child Left Behind Act is
    really a jobs act when you think about it. The No Child Left Behind Act
    says, ``We'll raise standards. We'll increase Federal spending, but in
    return for extra spending, we now want people to measure--States and
    local jurisdictions to measure, to show us whether or not a child can
    read or write or add and subtract.'' You cannot solve a problem unless
    you diagnose the problem, and we weren't diagnosing problems. And
    therefore, just kids were being shuffled through the school. And guess
    who would get shuffled through? Children whose parents wouldn't speak
    English as first language, just moved

    [[Page 2495]]

    through; many inner-city kids, just moved through. We've stopped that
    practice now by measuring early, and when we find a problem, we spend
    extra money to correct it.
        I remember a lady in Houston, Texas, telling me reading is the new
    civil right. And she's right. In order to make sure people have jobs for
    the 21st century, we've got to get it right in the education system. And
    we're beginning to close a minority achievement gap now. You see, we'd
    never be able to compete in the 21st century unless we have an education
    system that doesn't quit on children, an education system that raises
    standards, an education that makes sure there's excellence in every
    classroom.

    Judicial Nominations/Education Funding

        Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President, I want to go
    back to something Senator Kerry said earlier tonight and ask a followup
    of my own. He said--and this will be a new question to you--he said that
    you had never said whether you would like to overturn Roe v. Wade. So
    I'd ask you directly, would you like to?
        President Bush. What he's asking me is
    will I have a litmus test for my judges, and the answer is no, I will
    not have a litmus test. I will pick judges who will interpret the
    Constitution, but I'll have no litmus test.
        Mr. Schieffer. Senator Kerry, you'd like
    to respond?
        Senator Kerry. Is that a new question, or
    a 30-second question?
        Mr. Schieffer. That's a new question for
    President Bush.
        Senator Kerry. Which time limit are we----
        Mr. Schieffer. You have 90 seconds.
        Senator Kerry. Thank you very much. Well,
    again, the President didn't answer the question. I will answer it
    straight to America. I'm not going to appoint a judge to the court who
    is going to undo a constitutional right, whether it's the first
    amendment or the fifth amendment or some other right that's given under
    our courts today--under the Constitution. And I believe that the right
    of choice is a constitutional right. So, I don't intend to see it
    undone. Clearly, the President wants to leave an ambivalence or intends
    to undo it.
        Let me go a step further. We have a long distance yet to travel in
    terms of fairness in America. I don't know how you can govern in this
    country when you look at New York City and you see that 50 percent of
    the black males there are unemployed, when you see 40 percent of
    Hispanic children, of black children in some cities dropping out of high
    school. And yet the President, who talks about No Child Left Behind,
    refused to fully fund--by $28 billion--that particular program, so you
    can make a difference in the lives of those young people.
        Now, right here in Arizona, that difference would have been $131
    million to the State of Arizona to help its kids be able to have better
    education and to lift the property tax burden from its citizens. The
    President reneged on his promise to fund No Child Left Behind. He will
    tell you he's raised the money, and he has, but he didn't put in what he
    promised. And that makes a difference in the lives of our children.
        Mr. Schieffer. Yes, sir.
        President Bush. Two things: One, he
    clearly has a litmus test for his judges, which I disagree with.
        And secondly, only a liberal Senator from Massachusetts would say that a 49-percent increase in funding for
    education was not enough. We've increased funds, but more importantly,
    we've reformed the system to make sure that we solve problems early,
    before they're too late. He talked about the unemployed. Absolutely,
    we've got to make sure they get educated. He talked about children whose
    parents don't speak English as a first language. Absolutely, we've got
    to make sure they get educated.

    [[Page 2496]]

    And that's what the No Child Left Behind Act does.
        Mr. Schieffer. Senator.
        Senator Kerry. You don't measure it by a
    percentage increase. Mr. President, you measure it by whether you're
    getting the job done. Five hundred thousand kids lost after-school
    programs because of your budget. Now, that's not in my gut. That's not
    my value system--and certainly not so that the wealthiest people in
    America can walk away with another tax cut: $89 billion last year to the
    top 1 percent of Americans, but kids lost their after-school programs.
    You be the judge.

    Addressing the Needs of the Military

        Mr. Schieffer. All right, let's go to
    another question, and it is to Senator Kerry. You have 2 minutes, sir.
    Senator, at the last debate, President Bush said he did not favor a
    draft. You agreed with him. But our National Guard and Reserve forces
    are being severely strained because many of them are being held beyond
    their enlistments. Some of them say that it's a backdoor draft. Is there
    any relief that could be offered to these brave Americans and their
    families? If you became President, Senator Kerry, what would you do
    about this situation of holding National Guard and Reservists for these
    extended periods of time and these repeated callups that they're now
    facing?
        Senator Kerry. Well, I think the fact that
    they're facing these repeated callups, some of them two and three
    deployments, and there's a stop-loss policy that prevents people from
    being able to get out when their time was up, is a reflection of the bad
    judgment this President exercised in how he has engaged in the world and
    deployed our forces. Our military is overextended. Nine out of ten
    Active Duty Army divisions are either in Iraq, going to Iraq, or have
    come back from Iraq. One way or the other, they're wrapped up in it.
        Now, I've proposed adding two active-duty divisions to the Armed
    Forces of the United States, one combat, one support. In addition, I'm
    going to double the number of special forces so that we can fight a more
    effective war on terror with less pressure on the National Guard and
    Reserve. And what I would like to do is see the National Guard and
    Reserve be deployed differently here in our own country. There's much we
    can do with them with respect to homeland security. We ought to be doing
    that, and that would relieve an enormous amount of pressure.
        But the most important thing to relieve the pressure on all of our
    Armed Forces is, frankly, to run a foreign policy that recognizes that
    America is strongest when we are working with real alliances, when we
    are sharing the burdens of the world by working through our
    statesmanship at the highest levels and our diplomacy to bring other
    nations to our side.
        I've said it before; I say it again: I believe the President broke
    faith with the American people in the way that he took this Nation to
    war. He said he would work through the--a real alliance. He said in
    Cincinnati, ``We would plan carefully. We would take every precaution.''
    Well, we didn't, and the result is our forces today are overextended.
    The fact is that he did not choose to go to war as a last resort. And
    America now is paying already 120 billion, up to 200 billion before
    we're finished and much more, probably, and that is the result of this
    President taking his eye off of Usama bin Laden.
        Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President.
        President Bush. The best way to take the pressure off our troops is
    to succeed in Iraq, is to train Iraqis so they can do the hard work of
    democracy, is to give them a chance to defend their country, which is
    precisely what we're doing. We'll have 125,000 troops trained by the end
    of this year.
        I remember going on an airplane in Bangor, Maine, to say thanks to
    the Reservists and Guard that were headed overseas from

    [[Page 2497]]

    Tennessee and North Carolina and Georgia. Some of them had been there
    before. The people I talked to, the spirits were high. They didn't view
    their service as a backdoor draft. They view their service as an
    opportunity to serve their country.
        My opponent, the Senator, talks about
    foreign policy. In our first debate, he proposed America pass a ``global
    test.'' In order to defend ourselves, we have to get international
    approval. That's one of the major differences we have about defending
    our country. I work with allies. I work with friends. We'll continue to
    build strong coalitions. But I will never turn over our national
    security decisions to leaders of other countries. We'll be resolute.
    We'll be strong, and we will wage a comprehensive war against the
    terrorists.
        Mr. Schieffer. Senator.
        Senator Kerry. I have never suggested a
    test where we turn over our security to any nation. In fact, I've said
    the opposite. I will never turn the security of the United States over
    to any nation. No nation will ever have a veto over us. But I think it
    makes sense--I think most Americans in their guts know that we ought to
    pass a sort of truth standard. That's how you gain legitimacy with your
    own countrypeople, and that's how you gain legitimacy in the world. But
    I will never fail to protect the United States of America.
        President Bush. In 1990, there was a vast coalition put together to
    run Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait. The
    international community, the international world, said this is the right
    thing to do. But when it came time to authorize the use of force on the
    Senate floor, my opponent voted against the
    use of force. Apparently, you can't pass any test under his vision of
    the world.

    Assault Weapons Ban

        Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President, new
    question, 2 minutes. You said that if Congress would vote to extend the
    ban on assault weapons, that you'd sign the legislation. But you did
    nothing to encourage the Congress to extend it. Why not?
        President Bush. Actually, I made my intentions--I made my views
    clear. I did think we ought to extend the assault weapons ban and was
    told the fact that the bill was never going to move because Republicans
    and Democrats were against the assault weapon ban, people of both
    parties.
        Now, I believe law-abiding citizens ought to be able to own a gun. I
    believe in background checks at gun shows or anywhere to make sure that
    guns don't get in the hands of people that shouldn't have them. But the
    best way to protect our citizens from guns is to prosecute those who
    commit crimes with guns. And that's why, early in my administration, I
    called the Attorney General and the U.S.
    attorneys and said, ``Put together a task force all around the country
    to prosecute those who commit crime with guns.'' And the prosecutions
    are up by about 68 percent, I believe is the number. Neighborhoods are
    safer when we crack down on people who commit crimes with guns. To me,
    that's the best way to secure America.
        Mr. Schieffer. Senator.
        Senator Kerry. I believe it was a failure
    of Presidential leadership not to reauthorize the assault weapons ban. I
    am a hunter. I'm a gun owner. I've been a hunter since I was a kid, 12,
    13 years old. And I respect the second amendment, and I will not tamper
    with the second amendment. But I'll tell you this. I'm also a former law
    enforcement officer. I ran one of the largest district attorney offices
    in America, one of the 10 largest. I've put people behind bars for the
    rest of their life. I've broken up organized crime. I know something
    about prosecuting. And most of the law enforcement agencies in America
    wanted that assault weapons ban. They don't want to go into a drug bust
    and be facing an AK-47.
        I was hunting in Iowa last year with the sheriff from one of the
    counties there, and he pointed to a house in back of us and said, ``See
    that house over there? We just

    [[Page 2498]]

    did a drug bust a week earlier, and the guy we arrested had an AK-47
    lying on the bed right beside him.''
        Because of the President's decision today, law enforcement officers
    will walk into a place that will be more dangerous. Terrorists can now
    come into America and go to a gun show and, without even a background
    check, buy an assault weapon today. And that's what Usama bin Laden's
    handbook said, because we captured it in Afghanistan, and it encouraged
    them to do it.
        So I believe America is less safe. If Tom DeLay or someone in the
    House said to me, ``Sorry, we don't have the votes,'' I'd have said,
    ``Then we're going to have a fight.'' And I'd have taken it out to the
    country, and I'd have had every law enforcement officer in the country
    visit those Congressmen. We'd have won what Bill Clinton won.

    Affirmative Action

        Mr. Schieffer. Let's go to a new question.
    For you, Senator Kerry, 2 minutes. Affirmative action--do you see a need
    for affirmative action programs, or have we moved far enough along that
    we no longer need to use race and gender as a factor in school
    admissions and Federal and State contracts, and so on?
        Senator Kerry. No, Bob, regrettably, we
    have not moved far enough along. And I regret to say that this
    administration has even blocked steps that could help us move further
    along. I'll give you an example.
        I'm the--I served on the Small Business Committee for a long time. I
    was chairman of it once; now I'm the senior Democrat on it. We used to--
    we have a goal there for minority set-aside programs to try to encourage
    ownership in the country. They don't reach those goals. They don't even
    fight to reach those goals. They've tried to undo them.
        The fact is that in too many parts of our country, we still have
    discrimination, and affirmative action is not just something that
    applies to people of color. Some people have a mistaken view of it in
    America. It also is with respect to women. It's with respect to other
    efforts to try to reach out and be inclusive in our country. I think
    that we have a long way to go, regrettably. If you look at what's
    happened, we've made progress; I want to say that at the same time.
        During the Clinton years, as you may recall, there was a fight over
    affirmative action. And there were many people, like myself, who opposed
    quotas, who felt there were places where it was overreaching. So we had
    a policy called ``mend it, don't end it.'' We fixed it. And we fixed it
    for a reason, because there are too many people still in this country
    who feel the stark resistance of racism. And so we have a distance to
    travel. As President, I will make certain we travel it.
        Now, let me just share something. This President is the first
    President ever, I think, not to meet with the NAACP. This is a President
    who hasn't met with the Black Congressional Caucus. This is a President
    who has not met with the civil rights leadership of our country. If a
    President doesn't reach out and bring people in and be inclusive, then
    how are we going to get over those barriers? I see that as part of my
    job as President, and I'll make my best effort to do it.
        Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President.
        President Bush. Well, first of all, it is just not true that I
    haven't met with the Black Congressional Caucus. I met with the Black
    Congressional Caucus at the White House.
        And secondly, like my opponent, I don't
    agree we ought to have quotas--I agree, we shouldn't have quotas. But we
    ought to have an aggressive effort to make sure people are educated, to
    make sure when they get out of high school there's Pell grants available
    for them, which is what we've done. We've expanded Pell grants by a
    million students. Do you realize, today in America, we spend $73 billion
    to help

    [[Page 2499]]

    10 million low- and middle-income families better afford college? That's
    the access I believe is necessary, is to make sure every child learns to
    read, write, add, and subtract early, to be able to build on that
    education by going to college so they can start their careers with a
    college diploma.
        I believe the best way to help our small businesses is not only
    through small-business loans, which we have increased since I've been
    the President of the United States, but to unbundle Government contracts
    so people will have a chance to be able to bid and receive a contract to
    help get their business going.
        Minority ownership of businesses are up because we created an
    environment for the entrepreneurial spirit to be strong. I think--I
    believe part of a hopeful society is one in which somebody owns
    something. Today in America more minorities own a home than ever before.
    And that's hopeful, and that's positive.

    Candidates' Faith

        Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President, let's go to
    a new question. You were asked before the invasion--or after the
    invasion of Iraq if you had checked with your dad. And I believe--I
    don't remember the quote exactly--but I believe you said you had checked
    with a higher authority. I would like to ask you, what part does your
    faith play on your policy decisions?
        President Bush. First, my faith plays a lot--a big part in my life.
    And that's--when I was answering that question, what I was really saying
    to the person was that I pray a lot, and I do. And my faith is a very--
    it's very personal. I pray for strength. I pray for wisdom. I pray for
    our troops in harm's way. I pray for my family. I pray for my little
    girls. But I'm mindful, in a free society, that people can worship if
    they want to or not. You're equally an American if you choose to worship
    an Almighty and if you choose not to. If you're a Christian, Jew, or
    Muslim, you're equally an American. That's the great thing about
    America, is the right to worship the way you see fit.
        Prayer and religion sustain me. I've received calmness in the storms
    of the Presidency. I love the fact that people pray for me and my family
    all around the country. Somebody asked me one time, ``Well, how do you
    know?'' I said, ``I just feel it.'' Religion is an important part. I
    never want to impose my religion on anybody else, but when I make
    decisions, I stand on principle. And the principles are derived from who
    I am. I believe we ought to love our neighbor like we love ourself.
    That's manifested in public policy through the Faith-Based Initiative,
    where we've unleashed the armies of compassion to help seal--heal people
    who hurt.
        I believe that God wants everybody to be free. That's what I
    believe. And that's part of my foreign policy. In Afghanistan, I believe
    that the freedom there is a gift from the Almighty, and I can't tell you
    how encouraged I am to see freedom on the march. And so my principles
    that I make decisions on are a part of me, and religion is a part of me.
        Mr. Schieffer. Senator Kerry.
        Senator Kerry. Well, I respect everything
    that the President has said, and certainly I respect his faith. I think
    it's important, and I share it. I think that he just said that freedom
    is a gift from the Almighty. Everything is a gift from the Almighty. And
    as I measure the words of the Bible--and we all do; different people
    measure different things, the Koran, the Torah, or--Native Americans who
    gave me a blessing the other day had their own special sense of
    connectedness to a higher being, and people all find their ways to
    express it.
        I was taught--I went to a church school, and I was taught that the
    two greatest commandments are ``Love the Lord, your God, with all your
    mind, your body, and your soul'' and ``Love your neighbor as yourself.''
    And frankly, I think we have a lot more loving of our neighbor to do in
    this country and on this planet.

    [[Page 2500]]

        We have a separate and unequal school system in the United States of
    America. There's one for the people who have, and there's one for the
    people who don't have. And we're struggling with that today. The
    President and I have a difference of opinion about how we live out our
    sense of our faith. I talked about it earlier when I talked about the
    works and faith without works being dead. I think we've got a lot more
    work to do. And as President, I will always respect everybody's right to
    practice religion as they choose or not to practice, because that's part
    of America.

    Era of Divisiveness

        Mr. Schieffer. Senator Kerry, after 9/11--
    and this is a new question for you--it seemed to me that the country
    came together as I've never seen it come together since World War II.
    But some of that seems to have melted away. I think it's fair to say
    we've become pretty polarized, perhaps because of the political season.
    But if you were elected President or whoever is elected President, will
    you set a priority in trying to bring the Nation back together? Or what
    would be your attitude on that?
        Senator Kerry. Well, very much so. Let me
    pay a compliment to the President, if I may. I think in those days after
    9/11, I thought the President did a terrific job. And I really was moved
    as well as impressed by the speech that he gave to the Congress. And I
    think the hug Tom Daschle gave him at that moment was about as genuine a
    sense of there being no Democrats, no Republicans; we were all just
    Americans. That's where we were.
        That's not where we are today. I regret to say that the President,
    who called himself a uniter, not a divider, is now presiding over the
    most divided America in the recent memory of our country. I've never
    seen such ideological squabbles in the Congress of the United States.
    I've never seen members of a party locked out of meetings the way
    they're locked out today.
        We have to change that, and as President, I am committed to changing
    that. I don't care if the idea comes from the other side or this side. I
    think we have to come together and work to change it. And I've done
    that. Over 20 years in the United States Senate, I've worked with John
    McCain, who's sitting here. I've worked with other colleagues. I've
    reached across the aisle. I've tried to find the common ground, because
    that's what makes us strong as Americans.
        And if Americans trust me with the Presidency, I can pledge to you,
    we will have the most significant effort--openly, not secret meetings in
    the White House with special interests, not ideologically driven efforts
    to push people aside, but a genuine effort to try to restore America's
    hope and possibilities by bringing people together.
        And one of the ways we're going to do it is, I'm going to work with
    my friend John McCain to further campaign finance reform so we get these
    incredible amounts of money out of the system and open it up to average
    people so America is really represented by the people who make up
    America.
        Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President.
        President Bush. My biggest disappointment in Washington is how
    partisan the town is. I had a record of working with Republicans and
    Democrats as the Governor of Texas, and I was hopeful to be able to do
    the same thing. And we made good progress early on. The No Child Left
    Behind Act, incredibly enough, was good work between me and my
    administration and people like Senator Ted Kennedy. And we worked together with Democrats to relieve the tax
    burden on the middle class and all who pay taxes in order to make sure
    this economy continues to grow.
        But Washington is a tough town, and the way I view it is there's a
    lot of entrenched special interests there, people who are on one side of
    the issue or another, and they spend enormous sums of money, and they
    convince different Senators to tout

    [[Page 2501]]

    their way or different Congressmen to talk about their issue, and they
    dig in.
        I'll continue in the 4 years to continue to try to work to do so. My
    opponent said this is a bitterly divided time.
    It was pretty divided in the 2000 election. So, in other words, it's
    pretty divided during the 1990s as well. We're just in a period, and
    we've got to work to bring it out.
        My opponent keeps mentioning John
    McCain, and I'm glad he did. John McCain is for
    me for President because he understands I have the right view in winning
    the war on terror and that my plan will succeed in Iraq, and my opponent
    has got a plan of retreat and defeat in Iraq.

    Wives and Daughters of the Candidates

        Mr. Schieffer. We've come, gentlemen, to
    our last question. And it occurred to me, as I came to this debate
    tonight, that the three of us share something. All three of us are
    surrounded by very strong women. We're all married to strong women. Each
    of us have two daughters that make us very proud. I'd like to ask each
    of you, what is the most important thing you've learned from these
    strong women?
        President Bush. To listen to them--[laughter]--to stand up straight
    and not scowl. [Laughter] I love the strong women around me. I can't
    tell you how much I love my wife and our daughters. I am--you know,
    it's really interesting, I tell the people on the campaign trail, when I
    asked Laura to marry me, she said, ``Fine, just so long as I never have
    to give a speech.'' I said, ``Okay, you got a deal.'' Fortunately, she
    didn't hold me to that deal, and she's out campaigning, along with our
    girls, and she speaks English a lot better than I do. [Laughter] I think
    people understand what she's saying.
        But they see a compassionate, strong, great First Lady in Laura
    Bush. I can't tell you how lucky I am when I met
    her in the backyard at Joe and Jan
    O'Neill in Midland, Texas. It was the classic
    backyard barbecue. O'Neill said, ``Come on over. I think you'll find
    somebody who might interest you.'' So I said, ``All right,'' popped over
    there. There was only four of us there, and not only did she interest
    me, I guess you could say it was love at first sight.
        Mr. Schieffer. Senator Kerry.
        Senator Kerry. Well, I guess the President
    and you and I are three examples of lucky people who married up.
    [Laughter] And some would say maybe me more so than others. [Laughter]
    But I can take it. [Laughter]
        Can I say, if I could just say a word about a woman that you didn't
    ask about, but my mom passed away a couple years ago, just before I was
    deciding to run. And she was in the hospital, and I went in to talk to
    her and tell her what I was thinking of doing. And she looked at me from
    her hospital bed, and she just looked at me, and she said, ``Remember,
    integrity, integrity, integrity.'' Those are the three words that she
    left me with.
        And my daughters and my wife are people who just are filled with
    that sense of what's right, what's wrong. They also kick me around.
    [Laughter] They keep me honest. They don't let me get away with
    anything. I can sometimes take myself too seriously. They surely don't
    let me do that. And I'm blessed, as I think the President is blessed. As
    I said last time, I've watched him with the First Lady, who I admire a
    great deal, and his daughters--he's a great father. And I think we're
    both very lucky.

    Closing Statements

        Mr. Schieffer. Well, gentlemen, that
    brings us to the closing statements. Senator Kerry, I believe you're
    first.
        Senator Kerry. My fellow Americans, as you
    heard from Bob Schieffer a moment ago, America is being tested by
    division. More than ever, we need to be united as a country. And like
    Franklin Roosevelt, I don't care whether an idea is a Republican

    [[Page 2502]]

    idea or a Democrat idea. I just care whether it works for America and
    whether it's going to make us stronger.
        These are dangerous times. I believe I offer tested, strong
    leadership that can calm the waters of a troubled world. And I believe
    that we can, together, do things that are within the grasp of Americans.
    We can lift our schools up. We can create jobs that pay more than the
    jobs we're losing overseas. We can have health care for all Americans.
    We can further the cause of equality in our Nation.
        Let me just make it clear: I will never allow any country to have a
    veto over our security. Just as I fought for our country as a young man,
    with the same passion I will fight to defend this Nation that I love.
    And with faith in God and with conviction in the mission of America, I
    believe that we can reach higher. I believe we can do better. I think
    the greatest possibilities of our country, our dreams and our hopes, are
    out there just waiting for us to grab onto them.
        And I ask you to embark on that journey with me. I ask you for your
    trust. I ask you for your help. I ask you to allow me the privilege of
    leading this great Nation of ours, of helping us to be stronger here at
    home and to be respected again in the world and, most of all, to be
    safer forever.
        Thank you. Good night, and God bless the United States of America.
        Mr. Schieffer. Mr. President.
        President Bush. In the Oval Office, there's a painting by a friend
    of Laura and mine named--by Tom Lea. It's a west Texas painting, a painting of a mountain
    scene. And he said this about it, he said, ``Sarah and I live on the
    east side of the mountain. It's the sunrise side, not the sunset side.
    It's the side to see the day that is coming, not to see the day that is
    gone.'' I love the optimism in that painting because that's how I feel
    about America.
        You know, we've been through a lot together during the last 3\3/4\
    years. We've come through a recession, a stock market decline, an attack
    on our country. And yet, because of the hard work of the American people
    and good policies, this economy is growing. Over the next 4 years, we'll
    make sure the economy continues to grow.
        We reformed our school system, and now there's an achievement gap in
    America that is beginning to close. Over the next 4 years, we'll
    continue to insist on excellence in every classroom in America so that
    our children have a chance to realize the great promise of America.
        Over the next 4 years, we'll continue to work to make sure health
    care is available and affordable. Over the next 4 years, we'll continue
    to rally the armies of compassion to help heal the hurt that exists in
    some of our country's neighborhoods.
        I'm optimistic that we'll win the war on terror, but I understand it
    requires firm resolve and clear purpose. We must never waver in the face
    of this enemy that--these ideologues of hate. And as we pursue the enemy
    wherever it exists, we'll also spread freedom and liberty. We've got
    great faith in the ability of liberty to transform societies, to convert
    hostile--a hostile world to a peaceful world. My hope for America is a
    prosperous America, a hopeful America, and a safer world.
        I want to thank you for listening tonight. I'm asking for your vote.
    God bless you.
        Mr. Schieffer. Thank you, Mr. President.
    Thank you, Senator Kerry. Well, that brings these debates to a close,
    but the campaign goes on. I want to wish both of you the very best of
    luck between now and election day.
        That's it for us from Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona.
    I'm Bob Schieffer of CBS News. Good night, everyone.

     Note: The debate began at 6 p.m. in Gammage Auditorium at Arizona State
    University. In his remarks, the President referred to former President
    Saddam Hussein of Iraq. Senator Kerry referred to Usama bin

    [[Page 2503]]

    Laden, leader of the Al Qaida terrorist organization.