    [Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: George W. Bush (2004, Book I)]
    [May 5, 2004]
    [Pages 767-770]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]

    Interview With Alhurra Television
    May 5, 2004

    Abuse of Iraqi Prisoners at Abu Ghraib Prison

        Q. Mr. President, thank you for agreeing to do this interview with
    us.

        Evidence of torture of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. personnel has left
    many Iraqis and people in the Middle East and the Arab world with the
    impression that the United States is no better than Saddam Hussein
    regime. Especially when this alleged torture took place in the Abu
    Ghraib prison, a symbol of torture of----

        The President. Yes.

        Q. What can the U.S. do, or what can you do to get out of this?

        The President. First, people in Iraq must understand that I view
    those practices as abhorrent. They must also understand that what took
    place in that prison does not represent America that I know. The America
    I know is a compassionate country that believes in freedom. The America
    I know cares about every individual. The America I know has sent troops
    into Iraq to promote freedom--good, honorable citizens that are helping
    the Iraqis every day.

        It's also important for the people of Iraq to know that in a
    democracy, everything is not perfect, that mistakes are made. But in a
    democracy as well those mistakes will be investigated, and people will
    be brought to justice. We're an open society. We're a society that is
    willing to investigate, fully investigate in this case, what took place
    in that prison.

        That stands in stark contrast to life under Saddam Hussein. His trained torturers were never brought to justice
    under his regime. There were no investigations about mistreatment of
    people. There will be investigations. People will be brought to justice.

    Media Coverage/Investigations

        Q. When did you learn about the--did you see the pictures on TV?
    When was the first time you heard about----
        The President. Yes, the first time I saw or heard about pictures was
    on TV. However, as you might remember, in early January, General
    Kimmitt talked about a investigation that
    would be taking place about accused--alleged improprieties in the
    prison. So our Government has been in the process of investigating.
        And there are two--more than two investigations, multiple
    investigations going on, some of them related to any criminal charges
    that may be filed. And in our system of law, it's essential that those
    criminal charges go forward without prejudice. In other words, people
    need to be--are treated innocent until proven guilty. And facts are now
    being gathered.
        And secondly, there is investigations to determine how widespread
    abuse may be occurring, and we want to know the truth. I talked to the
    Secretary of Defense this morning, by the
    way. I said, ``Find the truth, and then tell the Iraqi people and the
    world the truth.'' We have nothing to hide. We believe in transparency,
    because we're a free society. That's what free societies do. They--if
    there's a problem, they address those problems in a forthright, upfront
    manner. And that's what's taking place.

    Accountability

        Q. Mr. President, in a democracy and a free society, as you
    mentioned, people investigate, but at the same time, even those who are
    not directly responsible for these events take responsibility. With such
    a problem of this magnitude, do we expect anyone to step down? Do you
    still have confidence in the Secretary of Defense?

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        The President. Oh, of course I've got confidence in the Secretary of
    Defense, and I've got confidence in the
    commanders on the ground in Iraq, because they and our troops are doing
    great work on behalf of the Iraqi people. We're finding the few that
    wanted to try to stop progress toward freedom and democracy. We're
    helping the Iraqi people stand up a government. We stand side by side
    with the Iraqis that love freedom.
        And--but people will be held to account. That's what the process
    does. That's what we do in America. We fully investigate. We let
    everybody see the results of the investigation, and then people will be
    held to account.

    Human Rights Abuses/International Red Cross

        Q. If your State Department issues a human rights report about
    practices around the world and abuses, and we call upon countries every
    once in a while to----
        The President. Right.
        Q. ----try to put pressure on them to allow International Red Cross
    to visit prisons and detention center, would you allow the International
    Red Cross and other human rights organization to visit prisons under the
    control of the U.S. military?
        The President. Of course we'll cooperate with the International Red
    Cross. They're a vital organization, and we work with the International
    Red Cross. And you're right, we do point out human rights abuses. We
    also say to those governments, ``Clean up your act,'' and that's
    precisely what America is doing.
        We've discovered these abuses. They're abhorrent abuses. They do not
    reflect--the actions of these few people do not reflect the hearts of
    the American people. The American people are just as appalled at what
    they have seen on TV as the Iraqi citizens have. The Iraqi citizens must
    understand that. And therefore, there will be a full investigation, and
    justice will be served. And we will do to ourselves what we expect of
    others.
        And when we say, ``You've got human rights abuses, take care of the
    problem,'' we will do the same thing. We're taking care of the problem.
    And it's--it is unpleasant for Americans to see that some citizens, some
    soldiers have acted this way, because it does--again, I keep repeating,
    but it's true--it doesn't reflect how we think. This is not America.
    America is a country of justice and law and freedom and treating people
    with respect.

    Cooperation Within Iraq

        Q. Transferring control of Fallujah in Iraq to former army officers
    under Saddam Hussein led many people in Iraq and even in the Arab world
    to believe that the U.S. is lowering its expectation.
        The President. Yes.
        Q. How would you respond?
        The President. Quite the contrary. We're raising expectations. We
    believe the Iraqi people can self-govern, and we believe the Iraqi
    people have got the capacity to take care of people who are willing to
    terrorize innocent Iraqi citizens. And that's what you're seeing in
    Fallujah. As a matter of fact, the general in
    charge of the operation in Fallujah had been imprisoned by Saddam
    Hussein. So he felt the vindictiveness of the
    Hussein regime.
        And I've got confidence that Iraq will be a peaceful, self-governing
    nation. And I also have confidence that, with help, the Iraqi security
    forces will be strong against foreign terrorists and others who are
    willing to kill and criminals who are willing to try to wreak havoc in
    this society. Listen, there are thousands of Iraqi--innocent Iraqis who
    are dying at the hands of these killers. And we want to help decent,
    honorable Iraqi citizens bring peace and security to Iraq.
        Q. So there is no reversal in policy of de-Ba'athification?
        The President. Oh, no. There are citizens, for example, in the--
    amongst the

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    teacher ranks in Sunni--parts of Sunni Iraq that were denied the right
    to teach because they may have been affiliated with the Ba'athist Party
    in the past but who are very important to the future of Iraq because
    they're teachers. And of course, they are now being let back in the
    classroom, not to spread political propaganda but to teach, to teach
    children.
        And obviously, there is a process of balancing those who may have
    been affiliated with the Ba'ath Party and those who are terrorists and
    killers. And obviously, terrorists and killers and extremists will not
    be a part of the Government, but people who are by and large peaceful
    people, who care deeply about the future of Iraq, will be. And that's
    what you're seeing taking place now.

    Progress in Iraq/Transfer of Sovereignty

        Q. It's been over a year since Saddam Hussein's regime has toppled
    down, and U.S. allies are in place right now in Iraq. What is your
    assessment, today, of U.S. allies and the Governing Council and the
    various factions of the Iraqi Government?
        The President. Yes, well, first, I think we've made a lot of
    progress in a year.
        Q. Do you still trust them? Do you still----
        The President. Well, I trust the Iraqi people, let me put it to you
    that way. I believe the Iraqi people want to be free. By far, the vast
    majority of Iraqi citizens want to have a life that is peaceful, so they
    can raise their children, see that their children are educated, have a
    chance for their children to succeed. The businesspeople of Iraq just
    want a stable environment for them to be able to run their businesses
    and make a living. People want jobs. I mean, there are normal
    aspirations in Iraq that give me great confidence in the future of Iraq.
    People aspire for the same thing in Iraq as we do in America, a chance
    to succeed.
        I also have confidence that the process we're under will work, which
    is to transfer sovereignty on June 30th. The people of Iraq must
    understand, sovereignty will be transferred on June 30th. And there's a
    process now in place to make sure that there's an entity to which we
    transfer sovereignty. And then there will be elections. And I think the
    timetable we're on is a realistic timetable. It's one that will be met,
    and I believe that the elections will help the Iraqi citizens realize
    that freedom is coming.

    Israeli Disengagement Plan

        Q. If I may ask you my final question on the issue of the peace
    efforts that you are conducting, you supported Prime Minister Sharon's
    plan to withdraw from Gaza, and you sent senior officials to Israel, and
    Israeli officials came to Washington and negotiated that plan. Do you
    think it was a mistake to support a plan before the Prime Minister
    secured the support of his own party?
        The President. I think when you see a step toward peace, it's
    important for a peaceful nation like America to embrace it. And I felt
    that a withdrawal from the Gaza by the Israeli Prime Minister as well as the withdrawal from four settlements from
    the West Bank by the Israeli Prime Minister was a step toward peace. And
    at the time he did so, I called for the United States and others to
    seize this moment--the Quartet and the European Union and Russia and the
    United Nations and, hopefully, the World Bank, to seize this moment and
    to help the development of a Palestinian state that will be at peace
    with its neighbors, a Palestinian state that will provide hope for long-
    suffering Palestinian people.
        I think this is an historic moment for the world. I think this is a
    good opportunity to step forth. I am confident that a peaceful
    Palestinian state can emerge. I'm the first President ever to call for
    the establishment of a Palestinian state. I still feel strongly that
    there should be one. I also recognize that we have got a duty, all of
    us, to fight

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    off the terrorists who are trying to stop the spread of a peaceful
    Palestinian state or the creation of a Palestinian state.
        And now is the time to make progress, and I believe we can. There
    was a good statement yesterday out of the Quartet that confirmed our
    desire for a Palestinian state to emerge. And it's--what the Prime
    Minister of Israel did was--took a political
    risk; obviously he did. I mean, his own party condemned the statement--
    condemned the policy. However, I still believe it was the right thing
    for him to do, and we support peace in the Middle East. And we support
    the vision of two states living side by side in peace.
        Q. Thank you very much, Mr. President.
        The President. Good job.

    Note: The interview was taped at 10:18 a.m. in the Map Room at the White
    House for later broadcast. In his remarks, the President referred to
    former President Saddam Hussein of Iraq; Brig. Gen. Mark T. Kimmitt,
    USA, deputy director of operations, Coalition Joint Task Force Seven;
    Iraqi General Mohammed Latif; and Prime Minister Ariel Sharon of Israel.