    [Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: George W. Bush (2004, Book I)]
    [May 28, 2004]
    [Pages 986-991]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]

    Interview With Paris Match Magazine
    May 28, 2004

    France-U.S. Relations

        Q. You'll be walking on Omaha Beach in Normandy, France. Does that
    mean that you're not angry at us anymore?
        The President. I've never been angry at the French. France has been
    a long-time ally, and I--look, I made a difficult decision, and not
    everybody agreed with it. But I understand that. And now is the time to
    work together to promote the values we

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    believe in, which is human rights and human dignity and rule of law and
    freedom and justice.
        And Omaha Beach is a symbol of working together to uphold the values
    that unite us. It's an interesting time in history to be going to Omaha
    Beach.
        Q. For 200 years, America and France have walked hand in hand,
    sharing the same values you are speaking about. Last year, for the first
    time we were not allies. What went wrong?
        The President. I don't--you need to talk to the French leadership.
        Q. Speaking of the French leadership----
        The President. For whom I have great respect.
        Q. Yes. But Jacques Chirac was a good friend of your father. He was
    one of the first--I think the first President to congratulate you in
    person on your election day.
        The President. Right here, that's right.
        Q. Yes. He also was the first in New York after 9/11, the first
    foreign leader to fly over the ruins of the World Trade Center. I mean,
    it's--for the French people, people don't understand what happened
    between the two of you.
        The President. I just think he just
    didn't agree with upholding the Security Council resolution that said,
    ``Disarm. Prove you disarm, or face serious consequences.'' He voted--
    France voted for that resolution, as did the United States. It was the
    ``face serious consequences'' part. And friends can disagree. I've got--
    I've had friends all my life, who I call friends, who didn't agree with
    every decision I made. And Jacques made it perfectly clear to me, he
    didn't believe the use of military force was necessary, and we discussed
    it as friends would discuss it.
        Q. Does that mean now that the French President will be invited in
    Crawford in the near future?
        The President. If he wants to come and
    see some cows, he's welcome to come out there and see some cows.
    [Laughter]

    Proposed U.N. Security Council Resolution on Iraq

        Q. You're now asking the United Nations to help you find a solution
    to the Iraqi crisis. Is it----
        The President. No--may I stop you? May I? No, we're going to the
    United Nations again to pass a resolution which supports a new
    government to which full sovereignty has been transferred.
        You know, after World War II, a lot of people didn't think Germany
    could be free and democratic, nor Japan. And there were people that just
    didn't believe it was true. Fortunately, there were optimists and people
    who adhered to their principles and value systems, based upon rule of
    law and democracy, justice. And they had the day. They ruled the day--
    fortunately, their opinions did--so that now some of our strongest
    allies in the war are Germany and Japan. No, it's never too late to
    believe people can be free.

    Situation in Iraq

        Q. But it's obviously more difficult than you expected.
        The President. Well, some parts are, and some parts aren't. I
    thought going in, there would be mass refugee flows, mass starvation,
    oil fields would be blown up. None of that happened. What did happen
    was, is that we moved so quickly through the country----
        Q. But I'm speaking about----
        The President. Let me finish. We moved so quickly through the
    country that many of the former Saddam
    loyalists just melted into the countryside and have come back to try to
    stop the advance of freedom. And the other thing that's happened is
    foreign fighters are in Iraq, who are convincing suiciders to kill
    innocent Iraqis.
        And it's tough. It's hard work. But we will prevail, because people
    want to be

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    free, and that's important. And that's why it's necessary for the world
    to come together at this point, to be able to help the Iraqi people form
    their government--not an American government, not something that looks
    like America, but something uniquely Iraqi. And that's what we're doing.

    Nature of the U.S. Presence in the World

        Q. The whole world remembers you addressing the firemen in the ruins
    of the World Trade Center. You were healing the wounds and uniting the
    world at that time. Today, your message through the megaphone doesn't
    reach the world. Don't you feel isolated?
        The President. No, I feel very comfortable with what I'm doing.
        Q. Yes, but all the nations----
        The President. Let me finish my--you ask a question. I give you the
    answers. And then if you want to ask another question, you're allowed to
    do so.
        I believe that the United States must continue to work with other
    nations. And there are a lot of nations working in Afghanistan and in
    Iraq to not only deal with terror, the immediate effects of terror--and
    that is, finding people before they hurt somebody again--but also to
    spread freedom. Free societies are peaceful societies. Free societies
    are hopeful societies. And there's a lot of nations working to get her
    to do so.
        I also believe that the United States must work to feed the hungry.
    We're the most generous nation on the face of the Earth when it comes to
    feeding hungry people or fighting the pandemic of HIV/AIDS in Africa,
    for example. I've asked our Congress, and the Congress has passed $15
    billion over 5 years to help fight that pandemic. And we are a nation
    that is tough when we have to be tough to protect our security and
    compassionate when it comes to the suffering of others. And hopefully,
    people will see the results of that--of the generosity of the American
    people.
        Now, your followup question.

    Abu Ghraib Prison

        Q. Talking about the photo of torture and abused prisoners, the
    First Lady said, ``This is unbearable.'' The moral leadership of a
    President is his highest power of all. Do you feel responsible in any
    way for this moral failure in Iraq?
        The President. First of all, I feel responsible for letting the
    world see that we will deal with this in a transparent way, that people
    will see that justice will be delivered. And what I regret most of all
    is that the great honor of our country has been stained by the actions
    of a few people, the first of whom is going
    to jail--or has been tried and convicted and will be sentenced--please
    correct that; I'm not going to deem the sentences--been tried and
    convicted, in an open way, for people to see, which stands in stark
    contrast to a tyrannical society in which prison abuse would never even
    come forth in the first place. And the contrast is going to be
    instructive for people in the world to see.
        And Laura is just like me. We both reacted
    the same way. It was a stain on our honor.
        Q. Do you still feel that stain on your honor today?
        The President. Of course. I mean, this is--you know, America is a
    great and generous and decent country. And the behavior of a few, you
    know, does not reflect the true nature of the men and women who wear our
    uniform, overseas or at home, or the character of the American people.

    Arrest of Saddam Hussein/President's Meeting
    With Tortured Iraqis

        Q. That morning when--now I'm going to go to more positive--I mean
    positive news--when you learned that----
        The President. It's positive news. You're giving me a chance.
        Q. ----they had arrested Saddam, was this the best moment of your
    Presidency?

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        The President. It was a big moment in my Presidency. No, I wouldn't
    say it's the best moment. The best moment happened when--you know, when
    I meet people who do heroic things, whether it's to help somebody who
    hurts or whether it's a generous citizen who lifts up the spirit of a
    person. And I fully realize that those thousands of acts of kindness
    lift up the whole spirit of the country. Those are the best moments.
        The capture of Saddam was a satisfying moment. It wasn't the best
    moment. It was satisfying because it was part of our mission, was to
    free the people from this brutal dictator.
        I'll tell you a great moment in my Presidency, not the best but a
    good moment. The other day seven people came in to see me. They had had
    their right hands cut off by Saddam Hussein. These were merchants in
    Baghdad--or in Iraq. I think most of them lived in Baghdad--small
    businessmen. And the currency in Iraq had begun to devalue, and Saddam
    Hussein needed a scapegoat. And so he chose these merchants, who he
    claimed were manipulating the currency, and he had their hands cut off
    for doing so. And then they had an X carved in their foreheads.
        An American filmmaker made a documentary
    of this, reminding people of the brutality of Saddam Hussein, how he
    just would whimsically torture or maim people. And a guy in Houston, a man in Houston who works in the television
    business, has a foundation, saw the documentary, put the money up, and
    flew these seven men to give them new hands, the latest technologies.
        And they came to the Oval Office to see me. It was an incredibly
    touching moment. They were so grateful to the United States and the free
    world for liberating their country from Saddam Hussein and incredibly
    grateful to the generosity of these individual Americans who decided to
    do something about their plight. Now, those are the kind of great
    moments I love.

    Situation in Iraq/Transfer of Sovereignty

        Q. Six months, though, after the capture of Saddam, each day brings
    the terrible news of American soldiers killed in action. Why the Iraqis
    are turning their guns against their liberators?
        The President. Well, because there are some who can't stand the
    thought of being--can't stand the thought of freedom emerging in their
    country. In other words, they understand what free societies will do. A
    free society will change the habits and raise the aspirations and hopes.
    There are foreign fighters who come into Iraq to make this a front in
    the war on terror because they want to stop the advance of freedom.
        A free society is how you solve the long-term issue of terror. In
    other words, hopelessness breeds fanaticism and terrorism. Freedom helps
    defeat hopelessness.
        Q. If you were an Iraqi, would you understand that--would you feel
    the occupation as a burden?
        The President. Yes.
        Q. Could you understand that?
        The President. Of course I can.
        Q. I mean, being----
        The President. I say it all--I say it all the time publicly. Yes, I
    wouldn't want to be occupied.
        Q. So you cannot say that these are people--you cannot say that all
    these people are terrorists and----
        The President. No. I agree. Not all of them are. But I am
    convinced----
        Q. Even the ones that, you know, takes----
        The President. The suiciders--and some of them aren't. And they
    don't like to be occupied, and neither would I, and neither would
    anybody. That's why we're handing over sovereignty. Full sovereignty
    will be transferred here very shortly. I mean, you're talking--I'm not
    sure when your magazine is coming out.
        Q. Next Thursday.

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        The President. Well, full sovereignty will happen on June 30th.
    You'll begin to see the government to whom full sovereignty will be
    passed.
        Q. The names of people?
        The President. I think so, yes. Absolutely. Not only the names of
    people, but there will be, shortly thereafter, a U.N. Security Council
    resolution that will embrace the new government. And that's important.
    But I fully understand people not wanting to be occupied. I wouldn't
    either.

    Belief in God/Concept of Freedom

        Q. Could you understand--your political action is inspired by God,
    you say a number of times----
        The President. I said what?
        Q. Is inspired by God, I mean, your----
        The President. My political action? I've never said that.
        Q. You've never said that? I mean, I'm not quoting you.
        The President. No, I've never said that.
        Q. I said, in general, you relate to God as a----
        The President. You said, my political action is caused by God, I
    think.
        Q. No, no, no, no, I said your political action is inspired by God.
        The President. No, my political action is--my life is inspired by
    God.
        Q. But this has a political consequence when you speak about
    freedom, the notion of freedom, you relate it to God.
        The President. Oh, I see what you're saying. What I say is, I say
    that freedom is not America's gift to the world. In other words, I'm
    making it clear to people that freedom is more universal than a country.
    Freedom is more universal than man. See, I believe freedom is the
    Almighty's gift to everybody in the world. And the reason I say that is
    because I don't want people to think that there is such thing as--that
    we want the world to look like America. I understand it's not going to.
    But freedom is universal. Freedom is applied here. Freedom is applied in
    France. Freedom is a part of--will be a part of a new Iraq.

    President's Daughters

        Q. Do you ever worry about the judgment your daughters might make
    years from now----
        The President. No.
        Q. ----as they reflect on your current actions?
        The President. No. I don't worry about the judgments my daughters
    are going to make. They're adults. They'll be able to make their own
    decisions. The only thing I can do with my daughters is tell them I love
    every day, which I try to do.

    Cannes Film Festival Palme d'Or

        Q. At the moment, the relationship with France is getting better.
        The President. I hope so.
        Q. Yes. I really do too. How did you react when the Cannes Film
    Festival jury gave the award, the Palme d'Or, to Michael Moore's movie?
        The President. I didn't pay any attention to it.
        Q. Thanks.
        The President. I didn't. Thank you.
        Q. Thank you very much.
        The President. Good luck to you.

    Note: The interview began at 1:08 p.m. in the Diplomatic Reception Room
    at the White House, and the transcript was released by the Office of the
    Press Secretary on June 4. In his remarks, the President referred to
    President Jacques Chirac of France; Spc. Jeremy C. Sivits, USA, who was
    convicted of abusing Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib Prison; Don North,
    documentary film producer; Marvin Zindler, member, board of directors,
    Agris-Zindler Children's Fund; and former President Saddam Hussein of
    Iraq. A tape was not available for verification of the content of this
    interview.

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