    [Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: George W. Bush (2004, Book I)]
    [May 6, 2004]
    [Pages 791-799]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]

    Interview With Al-Ahram International
    May 6, 2004

    U.S. Goals in the Middle East

        Q. I have learned that President Mubarak sent you, recently, two
    important messages. I don't know, I mean, the contents of these
    messages, but I assume that of course it be linked by the situation in
    Iraq and Palestine. I would like to ask, in the beginning, one general
    question about how do you look at this vision of the Middle East.
        The President. Well, first of all, I communicate with President
    Mubarak a lot, because I value his judgment,
    and we've got a frank relationship where if he thinks things are going
    badly, he'll tell me. In other words, he doesn't gloss over.
        I think that things in the Middle East for the United States are
    difficult right now. I think they're difficult because people don't
    really understand our intentions. I think they're difficult because some
    people ascribe bad values and bad motives to the American people and the
    American Government.
        Our intentions are to work for free societies and peaceful
    societies. Our intentions are to protect our own security, on the one
    hand, but also enable people to live in peace. Obviously, our reputation
    has been damaged severely by the terrible and horrible acts, inhumane
    acts that were conducted on Iraqi prisoners. Today I can't tell you how
    sorry I am to them and their families for the humiliation.
        I'm also sorry because people are then able to say, ``Look how
    terrible America is.'' But this isn't America. That's not--Americans are
    appalled at what happened. We're a generous people. I don't think a lot
    of people understand that, so I've got to do a better job of explaining
    to people that we're for a lot of things that most people who live in
    the Middle East want. We want there to be peace. We want people to have
    a living. We want people to send their kids to schools that work. We
    want there to be health care. We want there to be a Palestinian state at
    peace with its neighbors. We want there to be reform. We want people to
    have a chance to participate in the process.
        But I'd say right now times are tough for the United States and the
    Middle East.
        Q. I have four topics, Mr. President: Iraq, the Israeli-Arab issue,
    the so-called greater Middle East, and bilateral--which one do you
    choose of them, Mr. President?
        The President. Whatever you want to do, sir. You're the
    distinguished journalist.

    Arab-Israeli Conflict

        Q. Thank you very much, indeed. Okay, I will shoot for the Arab-
    Israeli conflict.
        The President. Okay.
        Q. Many Arabs feel that after the letter of assurances you gave to
    Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, any future Palestinian state would
    exist on less than half what the partition plan offered them in '47. How
    do you reconcile this with a moral concept of justice?
        The President. First of all, I made it very clear in my letter that
    I recognized circumstances had changed, but I made it very clear of a
    couple of very important points: One, that any final status would be
    negotiated by the parties--that would be the Israelis and the
    Palestinians--not the United States. We won't prejudge final status.
        Secondly, I made it clear that I supported what the Prime
    Minister had done, because I think it's a great
    opportunity for the establishment of a Palestinian state. I'm the first
    President ever to have articulated the vision of a Palestinian state.
        Q. I'm writing here, and I wanted to appreciate that very highly.
        The President. Well, I'll tell you, and I'm somewhat amazed, sir,
    that the debate has

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    already started about what the end results are going to look like, when
    we haven't even really begun yet to establish a state. I think the focus
    ought to be on putting the institutions in place for a Palestinian state
    that is peaceful and prosperous to emerge.
        I think it's very important for reform-minded Palestinians to step
    up and ask the world for help in order to build the security apparatus
    needed for a state to grow; ask for education help; ask for help to
    stimulate the entrepreneurial class so businesses will grow. I believe
    it'll happen. And when it does happen, the final status issues will be
    much easier to solve.
        In other words, when there is a state that's up and running and
    prosperous and has the confidence of Egypt and Israel and America and
    the EU and the rest of the world, it'll be much easier for these final--
    these tricky issues to be solved between the two parties. And so now is
    the time not to be arguing over what the world will look like down the
    road. We ought to be arguing about what the world can look like this
    year. And that's why the roadmap is so important.
        The United States is firmly committed to the roadmap. I'm sending a
    letter to the--I announced today I'm going to send a letter to the
    Palestinian Prime Minister explaining that I'm
    committed to the roadmap, committed to two states living side by side in
    peace, but also reminding him it's now time to step up and show
    leadership, show leadership against the terrorists and show leadership
    in putting the institutions in place for a state to emerge.

    Palestinian Right of Return

        Q. The right of Palestinian refugees to return to their homeland and
    to be provided with compensation is legally assured in several U.N.
    resolutions.
        The President. Right.
        Q. The United States has also traditionally supported the right of
    refugees to return in recent major conflicts. How would you then justify
    making the Palestinian refugees an exception for accepted international
    laws under human rights conventions?
        The President. My comment, again, was this, that--and the right of
    refugees is a final status issue. And that's to be negotiated on between
    the Palestinians and the Israelis. When I said what has changed and what
    will change is when there's a Palestinian state to which Palestinians
    can go. There hasn't been one. And my point was, was that when a state
    is set up and the institutions are in place and people have a chance to
    make a living and it's peaceful, the entrepreneurial class is growing,
    small businesses, people are participating in the political process,
    that that's going to change the dynamic on the ground.
        I fully concede there's a lot--the compensation issue is an issue
    that's still being negotiated. The rights of--you know, the rights of
    Palestinians to return to Israel will be negotiated, but what I'm
    telling you is when a state emerges, it'll change the dynamic. And
    that's all I said in my comment.
        Again, I'll repeat to you, people want to focus on the future, when
    I think we ought to be focused right now on the right now, which is what
    is necessary to put a Palestinian state in place so people can have a
    chance to live in a hopeful society. And I'm frustrated, I must tell
    you, a little bit, because I think that there needs to be better
    leadership in saying, ``What can we do to help the Palestinian people
    develop a state?'' And there needs to be a new constitution, it seems
    like to me.
        And some of these reforms stalled. Heck, we've been talking about
    them for about 2 years, unfortunately, but now is an opportunity. And I
    think Prime Minister Sharon created an
    interesting dynamic, I really do, and that is withdrawal from the West
    Bank. You know, it wasn't all that long ago if an Israeli Prime Minister
    stood up and said, ``We're out of Gaza and parts of the West Bank,''
    people would have said, ``That's fantastic.'' And so the Prime Minister
    makes

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    the decision to get out and, of course, his own party rejects it, which
    speaks to--it speaks to his leadership, in my judgment, that he's
    willing to do what he thinks is right, in face of political opposition.

    Israeli Disengagement Plan/Palestinian State

        Q. But do you really agree that pragmatic realities mean annexation
    of other lands?
        The President. Do I think----
        Q. Do you agree on that, I mean, that pragmatic realities which, I
    mean, being said repeatedly here in the States, pragmatic realities--
    pragmatic realities----
        The President. You mean, with the conditions on the ground?
        Q. Does it mean annexation of other people's land?
        The President. I think what it means is, I think you're going to see
    over time with the emergence of a Palestinian state that the West Bank
    will be occupied by Palestinians. And to the extent to what the final
    border looks like is up for negotiations.
        Q. Again, we very much appreciate the fact that you were the first
    U.S. President to call for the creation of an independent Palestinian
    state. But in all the recent proposals that are being circulated,
    including the latest disengagement plan, we did not see any specific
    timetable. What happened to your pledge to create a Palestinian state by
    2005? And do you still believe that this could be possible?
        The President. Well, 2005 may be hard, since 2005 is right around
    the corner. I readily concede the date has slipped some, primarily
    because violence sprung up. When I laid out the date of 2005, I believe
    it was around the time I went to Aqaba, Jordan. It was a very meaningful
    moment, where former Prime Minister Abu Mazen, myself, Prime Minister Sharon, and His Majesty, the King of Jordan, stood up and pledged to work together. But we hit a bump
    in the road--violence, as well as Abu Mazen was replaced, which changed the dynamic. I don't want
    to make any excuses, but nevertheless I think the timetable of 2005
    isn't as realistic as it was 2 years ago. Nevertheless, I do think we
    ought to push hard as fast as possible to get a state in place.
        And I repeat to you, sir, that part of my frustrations were
    alleviated with the Quartet making the statement it made the other day--
    the Quartet being the EU, Russia, United Nations, and the United States,
    working together. I think we can get the World Bank involved. But there
    is a certain sense of responsibility that falls upon the Palestinians,
    reform-minded Palestinians to step up and say, ``Yes, we accept these
    institutions necessary for a peaceful state to emerge.''
        There's also a responsibility for Egypt. Egypt has got, in my
    judgment, an important role to play to help make sure there is security
    in Gaza as the civil structure is put in place and as the Government
    structure is put in place. And President Mubarak, I think, is willing to assume that responsibility over
    time. I don't want to put him on a timetable, but I do believe he is
    committed to helping bring security to that part of the world. It's in
    Egypt's interest that there be security.

    Egypt's Role in Creation of a Palestinian State

        Q. You know, Mr. President, we did our best, I mean, getting all the
    factions together in Cairo, Egypt, to try to convince them to have one
    single opinion and that we're ready for training the police and security
    guards.
        The President. That's right. President Mubarak has been a leader on the issue of security. He really
    has. As you say, he's convened a very important meeting to make it clear
    that in order for there to be a peaceful evolution of a state, there has
    to be security, and that he's willing to train police. Egypt plays a
    mighty important role. And it's a great country, and it should play an
    important role.

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    Final Status Issues

        Q. You have said, Mr. President, in recent statements that the
    assurances you gave to Sharon did not differ from what was being
    discussed and what we mentioned now and previous final status talks. But
    in those talks there were proposals on land swaps and an Israeli
    acceptance for the return of a limited number of refugees. Why were
    these proposals absent from your recent letters?
        The President. Look, I want to assure you once again that I
    understand the sensitivity of these final status issues. But they will
    be negotiated, not between the United States and the parties; they're
    negotiated between Israel and the Palestinian Government of a new state.
    And that's really--and that is a position I've taken all along. It's
    what I told my friend President Mubarak. I
    just told that to His Majesty, the King of Jordan. And I will explain that consistent position of mine.
        People--I think some people are trying to read something into what I
    said or didn't say. And what--you know, I'll say it finally one more
    time: This is an opportunity that we can't let go by. There's a lot of
    argument about final status issues, and they're very important issues,
    don't get me wrong. But the focus ought to be on how do we get a
    Palestinian state up and running and moving forward.
        Q. You have praised Sharon's proposal to withdraw from Gaza, which
    is an idea that does not represent more than one percent of--
    [inaudible]--Palestine. Would you accept guarantee for granting
    Palestinians similar letter of assurances stating that any annexation of
    West Bank territory has to be minimal and that Israel has to pull out
    from nearly the entire West Bank, according to Security Resolution 242
    and 338?
        The President. No, I will write--I will say the exact same thing in
    a letter to the Palestinians that I have said publicly today, that I
    believe an opportunity exists, and it's essential that the Palestinian
    Authority find reform-minded leaders who are willing to step up and
    lead.

    Israeli Security Wall/Palestinian State

        Q. The last question on Israeli-Arab issue. You have repeatedly--
    repeatedly stated that Israel had the right to defend itself. But do you
    believe that by building walls and settlements and by assassinating
    Palestinian leaders, Israel is enhancing security and helping and
    reassuring peace talks?
        The President. I think that any country has a right to defend
    herself. And you're looking at a President who is now in the process of
    defending my country against terrorist attacks. It is very difficult for
    the President of the United States to condemn anybody for defending
    themselves.
        My problem with the wall was not the security aspect of the wall. My
    problem with the wall was that at one point in time, it looked like it
    was trying to prejudge any final status, and that I hope--my hope is, at
    one point in time, the wall is unnecessary. The hope is, is that a
    peaceful Palestinian state, that--I keep saying that, but I think it's
    possible--but a peaceful Palestinian state must be a state in which
    youngsters are well educated and have a chance to make a living and have
    a chance to--parents have a chance to realize--raise their children in a
    peaceful setting.
        And I think that a peaceful Palestinian state will eventually change
    the dynamics on that which exists on the ground today.

    Prisoner Abuse at Abu Ghraib Prison

        Q. Okay. I thank you very much for your patience. I will move to the
    other topic, Iraq.
        The President. Sure. Sure.
        Q. You said yesterday that you first learned of the abuses of Abu
    Ghraib and other prison--and other prisons in Iraq generally. Why has it
    taken so long to adopt serious measures against those directly
    responsible and their commanders?

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        The President. First of all, I learned about the fact that there was
    an investigation going on. I did not know the extent of the abuse. And
    there was a report done as a result of those investigations, and what
    you're hearing here in America is, why didn't I see the report? And
    that's a good question. That's one of the questions I'm asking, because
    I first saw about the pictures on television screens.
        But one of the things you've got to understand about our country is
    that, one, we reject this kind of treatment of people. It's abhorrent,
    and it's not America. Your viewers have to understand, this is not our
    country.
        Secondly, that we will fully investigate. Now, there's a difference
    between fully investigating and rushing to judgment. We will
    investigate, and there's a procedure in the military that is necessary
    to make sure that the guilty are truly guilty. It's very important for
    the Commander in Chief not to prejudge.
        Thirdly, the process will be transparent. Your viewers have got to
    know that here in America, in our system, the judicial process will be
    fully transparent, and you're beginning to see the transparency. The
    press corps wants to know different questions, and those questions need
    to be answered.
        Tomorrow our Secretary of Defense, in
    whom I've got confidence and believe in, will go up and testify at the
    United States Senate. So you'll see the process evolve as to--and the
    truth come out as to why the military needed to take the time necessary
    to fully investigate these horrible, horrible acts.
        And I repeat to you, sir, I am sorry for the humiliation suffered by
    those individuals. It makes me sick to my stomach to see that happen.
        I'll tell you what else I'm sorry about. I'm sorry that the truth
    about our soldiers in Iraq becomes obscured. In other words, we've got
    fantastic citizens in Iraq, good kids, good soldiers, men and women who
    are working every day to make Iraqi citizens' lives better. And there
    are a thousand acts of kindness that take place every day of these great
    Americans who really do care about the citizens in Iraq. It's an awful,
    awful period for the American people, just like it's awful for the Iraqi
    citizens to see that on their TV screens.
        Q. Again, sir, do you feel like you need to apologize to the Iraqis
    and the Arab world after you said that, ``I'm sorry''?
        The President. Well, I'm sorry for the prisoners. I really am. I
    think it's humiliating, and it is, again--what the Arab world must
    understand is a couple of things. One, under a dictatorship, these--this
    wouldn't be transparent. In other words, if there was torture under a
    dictator, we would never know the truth. In a democracy, you'll know the
    truth, and justice will be done. And that's what people need to know.

    U.N. Security Council Resolution on Iraq

        Q. What are the main pillars of the upcoming Security Council
    resolution on Iraq? How much control are you ready to cede to the United
    Nations and the future Iraqi Government?
        The President. Well, I think the Iraqi Government wants the
    sovereignty. And I think that's the proper--the proper relationship is
    for the Iraqi--the sovereignty to be passed to the Iraqi Government with
    help from coalition as well as the United Nations. I'll tell you, a very
    good role for the United Nations is to help set up the elections that
    will take place in January of 2005. And the United Nations Security
    Council resolution is important, because it says to members of the
    world, please participate in helping this Government grow.
        But the sovereignty--Iraqi people want to run the Government
    themselves. That's not to say they don't want help. Of course they want
    help. But they want to run their Government. Frankly, you hear
    frustrations about America there in Iraq. And I can understand that,
    because the Iraq--nobody wants their Government run for them. The

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    people of Iraq want to run their own Government, and that's what will
    happen.

    Timing of U.S. Withdrawal From Iraq

        Q. How long do you think the United States will stay in Iraq?
        The President. As long as necessary, and not one day more.

    U.S. Future Role in Iraq/Accomplishments

        Q. A recent Gallup Poll showed that 71 percent of Iraqis considered
    the United States an occupying power. Does this disappoint you?
        The President. No, listen, I understand. I mean, if I were an Iraqi
    and I saw people--was asked, am I happy that somebody is running my
    Government for me, which basically is what the question implies, the
    answer would be, ``No, we want to run our Government ourselves.'' And
    that's why we're transferring sovereignty.
        I'll tell you, however, the Iraqi people understand that America
    needs to be around for a while to help make sure that the killers--the
    foreign fighters who are there, disgruntled former Saddamists--don't wreak havoc. There are thousands of
    Iraqis losing their lives at the hands of these killers. And they are--
    and they need help right now, until security--Iraqi security forces are
    efficient, are formed in a way that will be able to be responsive to the
    dangers of these few people. It is essential that there be a secure
    environment as Iraq emerges from this period of tyranny, and they want
    our help there. They also want the reconstruction aid.
        Q. And it has been delayed a lot.
        The President. Well, it has, for a reason. Early in the winter there
    was fast movement on the reconstruction projects. I mean, there's some
    wonderful things that have happened in Iraq, which of course don't get
    mentioned very often.
        For example, I'll tell you an interesting thing that's happened, is
    that the currency, the old currency was replaced by a new currency in
    about a 6- or 7-month period of time. That's hard to do. And yet, it was
    done without a lot of arbitrage, a lot of counterfeiting, theft. There
    was no theft, and the currency is stable, which is a remarkable feat,
    when you think about it. The electricity levels were climbing quite
    dramatically. The oil production, which is Iraqi oil production, it's
    not American, it's--Iraq owns the oil--it's up to about 2\1/2\ million
    barrels a day.
        So in other words, there were positive signs going on. And then we
    had this period of fighting, where elements in society decided to fight
    because they saw freedom coming and they wanted to try and stop it, is
    what they're trying to do. And we took them on and are defeating them.
        What's happening now is that big projects are starting back up again
    because the security situation is a little better, and big companies are
    moving in with these reconstruction projects. It will start back up, and
    Iraq will be better for it.

    President's Meetings With Iraqis

        Q. I am aware of a very emotional meeting that took place recently
    between you and the Iraqi women delegation----
        The President. Yes.
        Q. ----and met you there with lots of tears.
        The President. Yes, there were.
        Q. Do you care to share the details of that meeting with us?
        The President. Only because you asked. I did have the honor of
    welcoming a group of women to the Oval Office. I was told ahead of time
    that some members of the delegation did not want to come in the Oval
    Office because they didn't want to get their picture taken, because they
    were afraid, not of American reaction but of reaction back home. In
    other words, there is still fear in people's heart. I met with those
    ladies later.
        The door opened to the Oval Office, and the first woman that walked in looked at me, and she burst out in tears
    and said, ``You are my liberator.'' It touched my

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    heart. It really did. And I, of course--I held her in my arms and tears
    came to my eyes as she cried out of joy. It really made me feel great.
    She said, ``Thank you, Mr. President. You liberated us.'' I said, ``No,
    the American people helped liberate you.'' And then another
    lady came in, and another lady came in.
    We had about six of us in our office.
        And it was a touching meeting. These were people that were obviously
    somewhat taken aback that they were in with the President of the United
    States. And yet, when they were with me, it was deeply emotional. It
    touched my heart. I still remember it clearly today. It made me very
    joyous inside to think that people who had been enslaved to tyranny,
    fearful of torture, probably had friends in mass graves, would be so
    thankful for the chance to live in peace.
        And I'll tell you what's really important for the people--those
    people, those women, and I think about them all the time, is for me to
    never show any weakness in the face of the dangers in Iraq. In other
    words, those killers want us to leave. But my attitude is, having met
    with these women, if we leave, they will be in jeopardy. And I have an
    obligation, no matter how difficult it gets, to stay strong on behalf of
    those women and their chance to raise their children in freedom.
        The other day I had the Olympic Committee from Iraq come, two members of the
    Olympic Committee. It was an exciting moment. I love sports, for
    starters, and the head of the women's Olympic committee came. She was a
    former runner. And she told me about her 2-year-old son and 1-year-old
    son. She had quit the Olympic team because she didn't want to run for
    one of Saddam's sons, for fear of her life, and yet she was so grateful
    for the freedom she has. It's heartening.
        I met with Fulbright Scholars, young Iraqis that are here studying
    in the United States. I met with doctors from Iraq who are getting new
    training, all of whom are desperate for there to be a free society so
    they can live in peace, and that's why we share the same goal.

    Vision for the Greater Middle East

        Q. On greater Middle East, Mr. President, has your vision on the
    greater Middle East initiative changed at all in light of recent
    reactions from Arab and European countries? What will be presented to
    the G-8 leaders in their meeting next month?
        The President. My vision for the greater Middle East reforms were
    strengthened by the Alexandria Library Conference. You might have heard
    of that. [Laughter] I saw the spirit of that conference. There are
    people in the Middle East who understand the need for reforms.
        Now, when I talk about reforms, I fully understand the pace of
    reform will be different from country to country. But nevertheless,
    there has to be a commitment to reform for a better life for every
    citizen. I am as strong today on reforms in the greater Middle East as I
    have ever been.
        I fully understand criticism. I mean, I get criticized all the time
    in my job. I think the job of a leader is to have a vision, a vision
    that is hopeful and optimistic and one based upon certain principles, a
    principle like rule of law, a principle like human dignity by empowering
    individuals to make decisions in the political process, a principle that
    every person deserves respect, a principle that says that a peaceful
    society is more likely to be one that is a free society. And therefore,
    I won't abandon those principles, no matter how significant the
    pressure.
        Q. Last question.
        The President. Okay, one more question. Then we've got to go.

    Syria

        Q. Why does your administration insist on imposing sanctions against
    Syria?
        The President. Because they will not fight terror, and they won't
    join us in fighting terror. We've asked them to do some

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    things, and they haven't responded. And Congress passed a law saying
    that if Syria will not join--for example, booting out a Hezbollah office
    out of Damascus--that the President has the right to put sanctions on.

        I have yet to impose a sanction yet, but the bill enables me to do
    so. And we've talked to the Syrian leader
    very clearly, and these aren't--these are reasonable requests, and thus
    far, he hasn't heeded them. And that's why, if I make the decision to
    put on sanctions, it will be because he hasn't been a full partner in
    the war against terror.

        Q. That would create another--more problems in the area.
        The President. Well, we'll see. But I think that people need to
    understand that there needs to be a full commitment. I mean, there's no
    need to harbor people who are expressing hatred. And if the world would
    join together to rout out terrorist organizations who want to kill
    innocent people, it would be a heck of a lot better off.

        See, here's my objection. We've got Muslims killing Muslims in Iraq.
    There are Muslims who will kill an innocent Muslim for the sake of
    trying to create fear. We can't let that happen. Civilized people must
    not allow that to happen. What they're trying to do is they're trying to
    shake our will, our collective will. For those of us who love freedom,
    they were trying to say, ``Well, don't work for freedom. Leave us alone
    so we can kill other people.'' We just can't let that happen. There are
    too many peaceful people who need protection, and we want to help them.
    And most importantly, we want to help them help themselves, so they can
    be self-governing in Iraq.

        But the killing of innocent life for political purposes is not
    acceptable in the 21st century. And you know that, and I believe that.

    Arab-U.S. Relations

        Q. I assure you that, you know, the Arab people really have nothing
    against the American people. Maybe the only--the only issue is the
    Palestinian-Israeli----
        The President. Israeli issue, yes.
        Q. ----and the American bias to it.
        The President. I hope we can get that solved. I mean, I truly
    believe that a peaceful state will emerge. And listen, I've got great
    respect for Arab culture. I've got great respect for the Muslim
    religion. I reject this notion that this is a war against Muslims. This
    is not a war against Muslims. The Muslim religion is a peaceful
    religion. Islam is peace. This is a war against evil people who want to
    kill innocent life. That's what this is.
        And it is--they've killed in our country. They've killed in your
    country. They killed a great man in Sadat. And it's essential that
    freedom-loving people and peaceful people fight terror. It's the call of
    our time. It's the challenge of the 21st century. And we've got to work
    together to do so.
        And I appreciate you giving me a chance to visit and share my views
    to the people who need to learn more about our intentions and our deep
    desire for peace.
        Q. I do thank you very, very, very much.
        The President. Thank you, sir.
        Q. And I hope to see you very soon.
        The President. Good job. Very good job. Very good interview.

    Note: The interview was taped at 3:37 p.m. in the Map Room at the White
    House for later broadcast, and the transcript was released by the Office
    of the Press Secretary on May 7. In his remarks, the President referred
    to President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt; Prime Minister Ariel Sharon of
    Israel; Prime Minister Ahmed Korei and former Prime Minister Mahmoud
    Abbas (Abu Mazen) of the Palestinian Authority; King Abdullah II of
    Jordan; former President Saddam Hussein of Iraq; Ahmed Al-Samarrai,
    president, and

    [[Page 799]]

    Iman Sabeeh, member of the executive office, National Olympic Committee
    of Iraq; and President Bashar al-Asad of Syria. A tape was not available
    for verification of the content of this interview.