[Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: George W. Bush (2003, Book II)]
[November 17, 2003]
[Pages 1558-1566]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]



Interview With Trevor Kavanagh of The Sun
November 17, 2003

The Oval Office

    The President. Have you ever been in the Oval Office before?
    Mr. Kavanagh. Once, just once.
    The President. Okay. The rug was designed by my wife. Every President gets to design his own rug. You 
probably didn't know that.
    Mr. Kavanagh. Fabulous.
    The President. I wanted mine--mine was designed by my wife, 
Laura. And I wanted people to have a sense of 
optimism when they came in here, that this is a guy who kind of sees a 
better world, not a worse world. Sometimes the Oval can be foreboding, 
and I wanted it to be cheery. So I hope you felt that.
    This is called ``A Charge To Keep.'' It's based upon a Methodist 
hymn. One of America's great imports from England was John Wesley. And 
it talks about serving something greater than yourself, which speaks to 
my own personal faith. As a President, it speaks to my need to capture 
the spirit of America and call on people to serve. You've probably 
followed some of my domestic policy, but one of the things that's 
important is to call on people to serve their communities by helping 
neighbors who hurt. The de Tocquevillean view of America at that point 
was just kind of a civic fabric of loving organizations; part of my 
vision, as well, is to energize them.
    The painting's of Texas. That's kind of what my ranch looks like, by 
a guy named Onderdonk. He's a Texas landscape artist. The bluebonnets 
are not quite that big. Blair and I--well, he's been there, and he would 
recognize kind of the look, if he were here. This is west Texas, where 
my wife's family was raised. We were both raised in west Texas, but this 
is farther west than where I was raised. It's called El Paso. But it's a 
famous Texas artist and historian who painted that.

[[Page 1559]]

    More Texas. The reason I have Texas up there is it's where I'm from. 
And in this job if you can't figure out who you are--you better know who 
you are because of the pressures and the decisionmaking process and all 
the noise of politics and all that.
    Really quickly, this is a desk given to us by Queen Victoria. A 
famous desk called the U.S.S. Resolute, and it's wood from the Resolute. 
The door was put on by Roosevelt to cover his infirmities. Out of the 
door poked John Kennedy's son----
    Mr. Kavanagh. Oh, yes, I remember.
    The President. I chose to use this. Ronald Reagan put the bottom on to make the desk high so it won't 
bump your knees. I love the desk. I love its history. It does speak to 
the great relationship between America and Great Britain; I'm sitting at 
a desk given to our country by Queen Victoria.
    And finally, the Churchill bust is on loan from the Brits. Tony 
Blair knew I was a great admirer of Churchill, so 
here he sits, along with Lincoln and Eisenhower.
    That's it. Welcome.
    Mr. Kavanagh. Fantastic. Thank you very much, Mr. President. Where 
would you like me?
    The President. Sit right here. Take Vice President Cheney's seat.
    Mr. Kavanagh. I'm more than a little impressed by being here and by 
sitting in this seat.
    The President. Well, you know, this is a shrine to democracy, and we 
treat it as such. And it's an honor to serve here.
    Mr. Kavanagh. Well, I would like to thank you on behalf of our 
readers for giving them and me the time to talk to you.
    The President. Well, I'm glad you're here, thanks.

World After Afghanistan and Iraq

    Mr. Kavanagh. We're a very pro-American newspaper, and our readers 
were shocked and deeply moved by September the 11th. And they supported 
what happened subsequently in Afghanistan and a little more reluctantly 
in Iraq, but in fact, the majority of our readers were behind the 
action.
    I think what they would like to know--we've talked with them in a 
way which is quite interesting. We actually spent a weekend with about 
2,000 of our readers.
    The President. Really? [Laughter] Good marketing tool. [Laughter] 
That's interesting.
    Mr. Kavanagh. Yes. And the one question they wanted to ask you is, 
is the world a safer place after the conflict than it was before?
    The President. Yes, much safer. It's safer for a couple of reasons. 
One, the free world has recognized the threat. In order to make the 
world safe, you've got to actually see reality. And the reality is that 
there are cold-blooded killers who were trying to intimidate, create 
fear, create hostility, and to shape the will of the civilized world.
    And a lot of countries have seen the threat for what it is. So, 
therefore, step one is recognizing the problem. Tony Blair recognizes the problem. Jose Maria Aznar recognizes the problem. Silvio Berlusconi recognizes the problem. Clearly, the United States 
recognizes the problem. After all, the clearest indication that we were 
at war and that the stakes had changed dramatically was September the 
11th. After all, we were a country which was able to sit back in our--
kind of in our geographical posture and pick and choose where a threat 
might emerge and say we may have to deal with that or we may not deal 
with it. We were pretty confident that we were protected ourselves by 
oceans. That changed. And one of my vows to the American people is I 
won't forget the lessons of September the 11th, 2001.
    Secondly, the world is safer because the actions we have taken will 
ultimately strengthen multinational institutions. Take the theater in 
Iraq. The United Nations had recognized that Saddam Hussein was a threat. They recognized it in not one

[[Page 1560]]

resolution but multiple resolutions and yet didn't do anything about it. 
And therefore, the resolutions became weak, became just words.
    And as a result of enforcing 1441, which said that you disarm or 
there will be serious consequences, now when multinational institutions 
speak, hopefully people will take them seriously. And in order to win 
the war on terror, there needs to be alliance and cooperation because 
these are killers that are capable of hiding in societies. They're 
patient. They're lethal. They pop up and will destroy. And by the way, 
they don't care who they destroy. There are no rules for these people. 
They will kill children just as soon as they'll kill somebody in a 
military uniform.
    Thirdly, the world is safer because there is a--and by the way, 
multinational forum doesn't necessarily mean U.N. It can also mean 
collaborations, like the collaboration that's now taking place with 
North Korea in dealing with Kim Chong-il, who is 
a threat to peace. And now it's not just the United States dealing with 
Kim Chong-il; it's the United States, China, South Korea, Japan, and 
Russia in a collaborative effort. Or the fine work--the initial fine 
work done by the foreign ministers of Great Britain, France, and Germany 
in telling Iran to get rid of its nuclear ambitions. I say ``initial 
fine work'' because the Iranians, in the past, have had clandestine 
operations. And therefore, in order to make sure that the words that 
have been issued to them are true, there must be transparency.
    Fourthly, we dealt Al Qaida. We are tough on Al Qaida. Now, you 
know, there are key figures still looming in caves and remote regions of 
the world, but we're dismantling them. If you were to look at Al Qaida 
as a business organization, middle management is no longer. That's not 
to say that they're not grooming junior executives to take over certain 
roles. But we're tough, and we're on their trail, and we're still 
hunting them down. Make no mistake about it. And as a result of 
dismantling Al Qaida, the world is safer.
    We've also dealt with the tyrants in Afghanistan, which is an 
incredibly dangerous regime, dangerous not only to the free world 
because they provided housing, training, money, safe haven, but also 
they were just tortuous and barbaric to their own people. And in Iraq, 
Saddam Hussein was clearly a threat to peace. 
And we can argue about the definition of ``serious consequence,'' and I 
respect the debate, but no one can justify this man's behavior to his 
people. We've discovered mass graves with over 300,000 people there, 
rape rooms, and torture rooms. He is paying suiciders to go kill 
innocent Israelis. He had a weapons program as discovered--I promise you 
this is going to be a short answer, eventually. I saw you looking at the 
clock; your glance can't escape me. [Laughter]
    This is an important question. It is the question.
    Mr. Kavanagh. Of course, absolutely.
    The President. David Kay discovered a weapons 
program that was in material breach of 1441. In other words, it was in 
violation of precisely what the United Nations had asked him not to do. 
Saddam Hussein, in 1991, it was assumed that 
he--his nuclear weapons program would be active in the out-years, and in 
fact, the inspectors discovered he's got nuclear ambitions, not only 
real and active but his program was a lot farther along than we thought. 
And had he ever developed a nuclear weapon, had he been allowed to have 
a nuclear weapon, he would have been the ultimate source of 
international blackmail.
    And so the removal of Saddam Hussein 
makes the world safer. And as importantly, the removal of Saddam Hussein 
gives the Iraqis a chance to live in freedom, which is the ultimate--
freedom is the ultimate route to security. I strongly believe that free 
nations are peaceful nations. Free nations are not terrorist havens, do 
not become terrorist havens. Free nations won't

[[Page 1561]]

create conditions of strife and resentment that breeds anxiety and 
terror.
    And therefore, the world is becoming safer, is safer, and will be 
even more safe when Iraq becomes free. And Iraq will be free, and it'll 
be peaceful. And we need peace and freedom in that part of the world.
    Now, there's an interesting debate going on as to whether or not 
people like the Iraqis will ever adapt the habits of freedom. There's 
kind of an elitism that takes place in our country, in your country, and 
elsewhere, feels, well, ``Certain people can't be free. They can't adapt 
the habits of democracy.'' I strongly disagree. I strongly disagree.
    And so, yes, the world is safer, and the world is more peaceful.

Future U.S. Activity in Iraq

    Mr. Kavanagh. Okay. That answer will resonate with our readers. 
Nonetheless, there is concern about the events, particularly in the last 
week or so, when things have escalated. I think this causes concern 
everywhere. Are we going to increase military presence there? Are we 
going to pull out? There's a fear that----
    The President. You don't have to worry about us pulling out.
    Mr. Kavanagh. There's a famous T-shirt slogan which shows the 
American flag and the words, ``These colors don't run.'' Do you stand by 
that?
    The President. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Our will is being 
tested. See, the tactics of the terrorists is to kill as many innocent 
people as possible and, therefore, try to shape the will of the Iraqis. 
As progress is made--and we're making interesting progress, and I'll 
cite some examples in a minute that I think are fascinating. But as the 
Iraqis begin to say, ``Wait a minute. Life can be better,'' and their 
instincts kick in about what it means to live in a free society, the 
terrorists want to shake that. They want to scare them. They want the 
police not to become police. And we've got over 118,000 people now, 
Iraqi citizens, in uniform beginning to conduct operations for their own 
security.
    They, of course, want to kill our own soldiers and, therefore, try 
to shake the will of the American people and the President and the 
command structure. They killed those Italians. And they were hoping that 
Berlusconi would say, ``Oh, my goodness, 
this is too big a fight. We'll leave.'' We're not leaving. We're staying 
there to get the job done. Of course we mourn the death of any citizen. 
But I recognize that it is--I still remember the death, what happened to 
us on September the 11th as well. I was there at Ground Zero right after 
the attacks, and I remember this kind of haze and the smells and the 
death and destruction. I'll always remember that, of course. And as I've 
told you, I vowed not to forget the lessons.
    Mr. Kavanagh. That changed everything?
    The President. Absolutely. Look, what changed for me was sitting on 
Air Force One and getting the reports that we were under attack. And I 
made up my mind then, right then, that we didn't need a bunch of legal 
briefs. I didn't need a bunch of--you know, let's kind of hold hands and 
hope to get the right answer. We were at war, and we were going to win 
the war. And I still feel that same exact determination today that I did 
then.
    Mr. Kavanagh. So you'll stay in Iraq even----
    The President. We will do our job.
    Mr. Kavanagh. ----after there's an interim council, a Government 
which is----
    The President. Yes. There's a lot of talk right now about the 
political process, as there should be. And we are interested in the 
Iraqis assuming more responsibility on the political side and on the 
security side. And a political process in which the Iraqis assume more 
responsibility will make the security side come together quicker as well 
in our judgment.
    And therefore, Bremer came 
here, he took instructions back from me to talk to

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the Governing Council to find out what is feasible when it comes to the 
passing of more power to the Governing Council. That's where we are 
right there.
    On the security side, absolutely we're there. The goal is for Iraq 
to be peaceful and free. I understand the consequences of a free and 
peaceful Iraq in the midst of the Middle East. We can have the debate 
all day long as to whether the Middle East will ever adapt the habits of 
democracy and freedom. I think they will, obviously, and I'm confident 
they will. I like to tell people in this country, freedom is not 
America's gift to the world; freedom is not Great Britain's gift to the 
world; freedom is the Almighty's gift to everybody in the world.

Freedom for Iraq

    Mr. Kavanagh. And this is what you'll tell the demonstrators? Or 
this is what you would tell the demonstrators if you had 5 minutes with 
them?
    The President. Of course I would, absolutely. I will say, ``You may 
disagree with our tactics. Nobody likes war. War is my last choice.'' If 
the demonstrators are there as anti-war protestors, they may be there 
for other reasons as well--global trade--and I'd be glad to talk to them 
about that as well. But in terms of war, I can understand why people are 
anxious about war. I can understand why citizens in Great Britain, 
protestor or not, wonders about why a President would commit to war, 
because nobody likes war.
    On the other hand, I would tell them, the skeptics and the critics, 
that I have a job to protect the security of the United States of 
America and that Saddam Hussein was a 
security risk, as witnessed by the international community speaking 
loudly on that subject 12 different times. But I would tell those who 
doubt our policy that we share a common goal, which is peace, and that 
free societies are peaceful societies. They may say, ``Well, you can't 
possibly expect a country like Iraq to be free,'' and then we'd have an 
interesting philosophical debate because I believe freedom exists in the 
heart of every single human being. It may take longer for people to 
accept freedom, if they've been tortured and brutalized like Saddam 
Hussein did.
    Secondly, I would tell the skeptics that not only is the world more 
secure as a result of the decisions we made, the Iraqi people now have a 
chance to live in a society which is hopeful and optimistic, a society 
in which you're able to speak your mind, a society in which you don't 
have to pay homage to a brutal tyrant and his 
two brutal sons, which is precisely how they had to live in the past.

Threats to World Peace

    Mr. Kavanagh. So how do you respond to those people who were polled 
by the Europe Commission and found that America was--alongside Iran, 
North Korea--is the second most powerful threat to world peace?
    The President. You just have to tell them, ``Watch what happens.'' 
The world is going to be more peaceful, and the free world will be more 
secure as a result of the decisions we've taken.

United Kingdom's Contribution in Iraq

    Mr. Kavanagh. Can I ask you about the special relationship, the role 
the British soldiers play in Iraq and are still playing?
    The President. Sure.
    Mr. Kavanagh. Would you like to tell me about you feel about our 
contribution?
    The President. Yes, I'll tell you about your troops. They are well 
trained. They are well motivated, and they're really good at what they 
do. And our soldiers and our generals and our commanders really 
appreciate being side-by-side with the Brits. They trust them, and 
that's important.
    Secondly, in Basra, the Brits have brought an interesting strategy 
in dealing in Basra because you have dealt in Northern Ireland. In other 
words, it was kind of a transfer of experience that has been

[[Page 1563]]

incredibly useful and important. I am really proud of our--not only our 
alliance because it's close now, and I intend to keep it that way.
    I've got a great personal relationship with Tony Blair. Let me tell you something about him just real quick, 
because it relates also to the trust of the troops. He's a man who comes 
in here, and he says he's going to do something, and as I said--as they 
say in Texas, you can book him when he says he's going to do something; 
you can take it to the bank. Because every time he has said something, 
he has done it, and I appreciate that a lot. It's not always the way it 
is in politics, whether it be domestic or international politics. 
Sometimes they'll come and look you in the eye and say, ``Oh, don't 
worry, Mr. President, we're with you and behind you,'' and it turns out 
they're way behind you. You can't find them when the heat gets on. But 
that's not the way Tony Blair is, and that's not the way the Brits' 
command structure is, and that's not the way the soldiers in the field 
have been. They've been tough and capable and decent people--that's the 
other thing about militaries. Both our militaries are full of 
compassionate people, because not only are we chasing down people and 
bringing them to justice, as we say, but there are schools being built, 
orphanages being opened, hospitals being supplied, thanks to 
compassionate British troops and American troops as well, and other 
troops. It speaks to the honor of our respective militaries. These are 
honorable people.

President's Upcoming Meeting With Families of Fallen British Soldiers

    Mr. Kavanagh. You're going to speak to some of the families of those 
who have already died in Iraq and also September the 11th.
    The President. Yes.
    Mr. Kavanagh. You're going to see them, I guess, on Downing Street.
    The President. Well, I'm not sure exactly where, but you bet. I am 
going to see them.
    Mr. Kavanagh. What are you going to say to them?
    The President. Well, I'm going to first of all ask for God's 
blessings, because I understand how bad they hurt. I can't imagine what 
it would be like, if I were a mother or a dad, to have lost a child. I'm 
a proud dad. It's got to shatter a person's heart to lose a loved one, 
and I will do the best I can to provide some comfort. I have done this 
here in America as well. It's part of my duty as the leader of this 
country to comfort those who have sacrificed.
    I'll also explain to them as best as I can that the sacrifices that 
their loved one has made is for a noble cause, and that's peace and 
freedom. I strongly believe that what we're doing today will make it 
easier for this person's grandchild to grow up in a free world and a 
peaceful world.
    I'll tell you an interesting story, kind of dawned on me a while 
ago. I was talking to Prime Minister Koizumi of Japan in Tokyo. We were having dinner, actually. 
And I kind of reflected on what it would be like--during our dinner, I 
reflected on what it would be like if America and the Allies hadn't done 
a good job in post-World War II. Would I be sitting with a Prime 
Minister of Japan, with whom I've got great relations, talking about how 
to deal with Kim Chong-il and North Korea? It's 
an interesting thought.
    Mr. Kavanagh. Very interesting.
    The President. Beyond that is whether or not somebody 50 years from 
now is going to be sitting with a leader from Iraq or any other country 
in that region saying, ``Thank goodness George W. and Tony Blair held the line, because I'm now able to deal with 
terrorist threats or potential terrorist threats with an ally. I'm able 
to help bring more peace to the world.''
    Presidents and Prime Ministers should never worry about their short-
term history,

[[Page 1564]]

how they're viewed in short-term history. There's no such thing as 
short-term history, except for the musings of somebody who's not very 
objective to begin with, because if you set big goals and work on big 
items, the President or the Prime Minister won't be around to see the 
effects of those policies. And therefore, I don't worry about the short-
term history. I think in terms of long-term history. I know what we're 
doing now is going to have an effect, a positive effect on this world.

France, Germany, and NATO

    Mr. Kavanagh. Can I just backtrack a little?
    The President. Sure.
    Mr. Kavanagh. You were talking earlier about the contributions 
countries like Britain and Italy have made, and others.
    The President. Spain, Poland, a lot of people.
    Mr. Kavanagh. You didn't mention France and Germany in that. You 
seem very critical of France.
    The President. Look, my attitude is the past is there. It's past, 
and now let's go on. I'll tell you one example of why that attitude is 
important, and that is Germany's contribution in Afghanistan. And it's a 
positive contribution, more than positive; it's incredibly helpful. 
They've got a number of troops there. It's the first deployment of 
German troops, as I understand, outside of their soil since World War 
II. It's a positive--yes, I think that's right. Check the facts. But 
anyway, it's helpful, really helpful.
    Mr. Kavanagh. And NATO?
    The President. Yes, NATO is important.
    Mr. Kavanagh. But France is a semidetached member of NATO----
    The President. Well, it's a historic role----
    Mr. Kavanagh. They won't be a rival----
    The President. I certainly hope not. See, there's no need to rival 
the United States and our friends. Our goals are peace.
    Mr. Kavanagh. But France wants to counter.
    The President. You mean multipolarity? Well, I think we need to work 
against multipolarity, and the reason why I know we need to work against 
multipolarity is a Europe working with American can do a lot together. A 
united Europe working with America can do a lot together. We can promote 
peace. We can fight off terror, which is necessary, and there needs to 
be full cooperation in order to defeat the terrorists. We can work on 
issues like global AIDS.
    I'm real proud of our country's contribution to global AIDS, just to 
give you a sense of my feeling on this. We are a fortunate country. 
We're prosperous--and by the way, we're becoming more prosperous, which 
is good news.

Global AIDS Initiative

    Mr. Kavanagh. I'd like to ask you about that.
    The President. Okay. But I believe we owe a lot to the world's 
peace, and we owe a lot to those who suffer, because of our fortune, 
because of our wealth. I'm proud of the fact that Congress has supported 
my initiative to provide a large sum of money. And as importantly, I'm 
proud of our NGOs and faith-based organizations that are willing to help 
provide the infrastructure so that we can get help to beat this 
pandemic. We're a prosperous country, and yet in our world an entire 
generation is about to be wiped out. And I feel strongly about America's 
need to be involved and Europe's need to be involved in this issue 
together, just like I feel strongly we need to provide food for the 
hungry, just like I feel strongly that when we see tyranny, that we need 
to work for freedom.
    Every situation, of course, doesn't require military action. I just 
repeat--I want your readers to know, the military is my

[[Page 1565]]

last choice, not my first choice. See, I understand the consequences of 
war. I understand the risks of war. I understand firsthand, particularly 
when I go and hug the moms and dads and brothers and sisters and sons 
and daughters of those who died.
    I also see the consequences of not acting, of hoping for the best in 
the face of these tyrannical killers. So therefore, our foreign policy 
will be active. We'll work closely with our friends and allies, and 
we're going to stay on the offensive against the terrorists.

National Economy/Steel Tariffs

    Mr. Kavanagh. Let me just ask you one quick question on the economy.
    The President. Yes.
    Mr. Kavanagh. It's going great guns. You're revising figures 
upwards. You introduced tax cuts. You promised tax cuts; you introduced 
them. Is this a message to the rest of the world too?
    The President. Well, I think people ought to look at progrowth 
policies and how to stimulate the entrepreneurial spirit. To me, one of 
the unique qualities of our country is the individualism of our country 
and the willingness of people to take risks to better themselves. Most 
new jobs in America are created by small businesses, and that's an 
exciting aspect of our economy, because it not only is good economics to 
have the job-hiring dispersed throughout society, it also is such a 
hopeful part of our economy, when you think about somebody in America 
can start their own business and grow it and then actually own 
something. They become the owner of this piece of property.
    Our tax policy was very effective at stimulating small-business 
growth, because most small businesses pay tax at the individual income 
tax level. When you hear ``small business'' or ``small corporation,'' 
you think ``corporate tax.'' But in America most small businesses are 
sole proprietorships or Subchapter S's, so that when we cut all rates, 
not trying to select rate cuts but all rates, it really affected capital 
formation in the small business.
    This economy and this country, more importantly, is tough and 
resilient. We've been through a lot. When I showed up here, we were in 
recession. I guess we were headed into recession. But the first--I show 
up--Dick Cheney and I are here; we get sworn in 
in late January; and the first quarter of '01 is recession or the 
beginnings of a recession. And then the attacks hurt us, and we had 
corporate scandals. But I think the world is beginning to see America 
will deal with corporate scandals in a tough way. It doesn't matter 
whether you're--we will hold people to account. I believe, in criminal 
matters, that there has to be consequences for bad behavior, and clear 
consequences, and that's how you deter bad behavior. And our SEC and our 
prosecutors are moving quickly.
    The war affected people, but we're overcoming that. It's not only 
good tax policy, but we've got to work on making sure Congress doesn't 
overspend, and that's tough. But I'm holding the line. We've done pretty 
good on our budget agreements so far. We need better legal policy. I've 
been pushing tort reform at the national level on class action suits, 
all of which make it easier for people to kind of calculate risk when it 
comes to employing capital, which is the essence of promoting the 
entrepreneurial spirit.
    Trade is a very important element. I'll be dealing--real quickly--
I'm going to take a good look at the steel issue. The International 
Trade Commission made a ruling. It said our industry was being harmed by 
imports. I felt I had an obligation to take that report seriously, which 
I did. I imposed tariffs to see whether or not--to give the breathing 
room for the industry to restructure. I'm not analyzing the extent to 
which they restructured. Having said that, I am a fierce free trader. I 
believe in free trade. I know free trade is important between America 
and Great Britain, and I

[[Page 1566]]

will continue to resist any protectionist tendencies here. In order for 
us to be free traders, however, we've got to enforce the rules of free 
trade, and I was doing so through the International Trade Commission's 
report.
    Sorry I cut you off.
    Mr. Kavanagh. Not at all.
    The President. First Lady Bush is standing 
out there. We're getting ready to award the National Humanities Award 
here.
    Mr. Kavanagh. Many thanks.
    The President. See you over there.

Note: The interview began at 9:31 a.m. on November 14 in the Oval Office 
at the White House. The transcript was made available by the Office of 
the Press Secretary on November 14 but was embargoed for release until 8 
a.m., November 17. In his remarks, the President referred to Prime 
Minister Tony Blair of the United Kingdom; President Jose Maria Aznar of 
Spain; Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi of Italy; Chairman Kim Chong-il 
of North Korea; Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi of Japan; former 
President Saddam Hussein of Iraq; L. Paul Bremer III, Presidential Envoy 
to Iraq; and David Kay, CIA Special Advisor for Strategy Regarding Iraqi 
Weapons of Mass Destruction Programs. A tape was not available for 
verification of the content of this interview.