[Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: George W. Bush (2003, Book II)]
[November 14, 2003]
[Pages 1530-1540]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]



Interview With British Journalists
November 14, 2003

The Oval Office

    The President. I wanted to show you this shrine to democracy here, 
kind of give you a sense of who I am.
    Laura designed that--that would be my wife. I 
wanted people to, when they walk in here, to have a sense of optimism. I 
wanted people to say, ``The person whose office is in here, or who works 
in here, is an optimistic person.'' And I thought she did a fabulous job 
capturing my sense about our future.
    Well, as you can see, it's got sun rays.
    Q. Has it worked? Have people coming in----
    The President. See, that's what you're supposed to tell me. 
[Laughter]
    Q. Can we--[inaudible]--the enemy to you? [Laughter]
    The President. I don't ask everybody that comes in to work. I just 
want you to know why we do what we do with the rug. This looks like 
Texas; it's a Texas star. These are paintings of Texas. This is a guy 
named Onderdonk, a great Texas painter. That's what our ranch looks 
like. That's west Texas, where--far west Texas. Where I was raised, it's 
flatter than that. Laura's mother was raised in 
that country. It's a really special part of the room.
    Q. Is that actually the ranch?
    The President. No, it's not. It looks like it--two other Texas 
paintings. Obviously, I love Texas. It's very important for a President 
to know who he is before you take this job, a lot of pressure here, a 
lot of decisionmaking. If you try to figure out who you are on the job--
--
    Q. It's too late.
    The President. ----you're not doing a very good job. Exactly. Before 
I get to there--well, Washington, George Washington, of course. It's 
kind of hard to envision Rutherford B. Hayes above the mantel, isn't it?
    Anyway, Lincoln is this country's greatest President, so I put him 
on the wall. I think he was the greatest President, because the job of 
President is to unite the country to achieve big objectives. It's hard 
to achieve big things if you're not united. We're achieving freedom and 
peace, so we'll spend a little time talking about it--Iraq.
    At home, a compassionate America is a big objective. In order to do 
that, a President must call upon people to serve their neighbors in 
need. I understand the limits of government when it comes to compassion. 
The truth of the matter is, the great strength of our country is the 
heart and souls of our citizens, incredibly passionate people here. My 
job is to call them to, as I like to put it, to love their neighbor like 
they would like to be loved themselves, which leads to this painting 
here.
    It's called ``A Charge To Keep.'' It's based upon a Methodist hymn. 
As you know, there was a renegade Englishman

[[Page 1531]]

named John Wesley, and we are Methodists--at least, I am Methodist, and 
my wife is a Methodist. And we sang this hymn at my first inaugural 
church service as Governor. And my friend O'Neill, who is not a Methodist--he introduced Laura and me in their backyard in Midland--he said, ``I've 
got a painting based upon that hymn, and would you like to hang it in 
the Governor's office?'' I said, ``I don't think it's going to fit.'' It 
turned out to be perfect.
    The hymn talks about serving something greater than yourself in 
life. Personally, it speaks to my spirituality. But my job as the 
President is not to promote a religion. My job is to capture what I call 
the spirit of America, to call upon people to serve, and that painting 
reminds me of that.
    Q. What painting is it again?
    The President. Pardon me?
    Q. What's it called?
    The President. ``A Charge To Keep I Have.''
    Q. Is that possible----
    The President. I think it is, yes. This, by the way--now we're going 
to get to the--this is the beginning. I hope you're recording all this.
    Q. Can we go again? [Laughter]

The Resolute Desk/Churchill Bust

    The President. This desk was given to America by Queen Victoria. By 
the way, I would like to talk about two things here in the Oval Office, 
two articles, one the desk and one a bust, that should describe how I 
value the relationship with our close and unique friend, which is why 
I'm so grateful that I've been invited to go. You're about to get the 
preamble to the discussions.
    This desk is called the H.M.S. Resolute Desk. The timber is from the 
H.M.S. Resolute, which was rescued in the Arctic, and Queen Victoria, 
out of gratitude for the relationship, made this desk from the timber. 
It's a beautiful desk. Not every President has used this.
    It has some interesting features. Roosevelt put the door on the desk 
to cover up his infirmities. He didn't want people to know he was in a 
wheelchair. John-John Ken put his head out of the desk, probably the 
most famous Oval Office photo. His dad was looking out at the South Lawn 
there. Reagan put the bottom on the desk so 
his knees wouldn't hit. So it's been an interesting history. I love it.
    Q. What are you going to do to it?
    The President. I don't know. Good question. I'm just going to treat 
it like a treasure, which is what it is.
    Q. Does this mean we're forgiven for burning down the White House? 
[Laughter]
    The President. Well, that's another part of the White House. This 
was built after that tragic occurrence. As a matter of fact, there's a 
painting hanging in there that we love to show people, where Dolly 
Madison cut out the picture of George Washington, rolled it up, and ran 
with it before the White House burned, thanks to a savage attack. 
[Laughter]
    Q. It was all a mistake.
    The President. Of course it was.
    Q. Identification problem.
    The President. Yes, exactly. Weren't sure where they were. This is, 
of course, Churchill. Tony Blair knew that I was 
an admirer of Churchill, and he arranged for this bust to be loaned 
here. I am an admirer. I thought Churchill was a clear thinker. I 
thought he was a--the kind of guy that stood tough when you needed to 
stand tough. He represented values that both countries hold dear, the 
value of freedom, the belief in democracy, human dignity of every 
person. I admired his wit. I wish I could be as witty as he was, because 
he had a fantastic mind and a charming guy.
    And there's some interesting political lessons there. Sometimes 
you're up. Sometimes you're down. But you've got to do

[[Page 1532]]

what you think is right. And that's the lesson of Winston Churchill, who 
was a strong leader.
    So anyway, he sits here, along with Lincoln and Ike.
    All right. So welcome to the Oval Office.
    Q. Thank you very much.

President's Upcoming Visit to the United Kingdom

    The President. The President must understand in this office that the 
person is never bigger than the office. If you think you're bigger than 
the office, you'll fail as President. The Presidency is bigger than the 
person. It will last--stay here a lot longer than any individual. That's 
an important lesson here that Presidents must understand. Come on in.
    Just a couple of comments, then we'll answer questions for a while. 
I am looking forward to the trip. It's going to be a really interesting 
and fun experience for Laura and me. Obviously, 
staying at Buckingham Palace is going to be an historic moment. I never 
dreamt when I was living in Midland, Texas, that I would be staying in 
Buckingham Palace. Buckingham Palace has got a resonance to it here in 
America which is pretty grand and pretty magnificent. I've been looking 
forward to it.
    I'm really looking forward to spending time with my friend--and I 
emphasize ``my friend''--Tony Blair. He's a 
smart, capable, trustworthy friend, and we've got a lot to talk about. 
We'll talk about Iraq. We'll talk about trade. We'll talk about 
commerce. We'll talk about issues that we can work together on to help 
human suffering.
    I'll be doing different events. I'll be giving a speech there that 
I'm working on now, that will confirm my understanding of the importance 
of this relationship. But I'll talk about other ambitions that we can 
work on together to promote freedom and peace and a compassion agenda 
that I think our countries are uniquely suited to work on.
    So I'm looking forward to it. It's going to be an exciting trip for 
us, and I really thank Her Majesty for 
opening the invitation. I've got my tails all set out and ready to go. 
[Laughter] Had to rent them, but--[laughter]--just don't tell anybody.
    Q. It gets a bit noisy in the palace when the morning papers arrive, 
so you'll need to----
    The President. They do? Yes. I guess I'll have to go to bed early 
and wake up early. Anyway, let's go around while we've got time.

President's Upcoming Meeting With Families of Fallen British Soldiers

    Q. May I just begin by asking what you hope to take away from the 
visit? And in particular, can I ask you what message you will have for 
families of the British servicemen who have been killed in Iraq?
    The President. Sure.
    Q. Because I gather you'll get to meet.
    The President. I am going to meet some. Look, there's two messages. 
One, the prayers of the American people and the prayers of the President 
are with them as they suffer. I believe in prayer. I believe that there 
is a comforting and healing Almighty, and I'll ask that their souls be 
comforted.
    Secondly, that I will tell them that their loved one did not die 
vain. The actions we have taken will make the world more secure and the 
world more peaceful in the long run, that a free Iraq, free of weapons 
of mass destruction, free of tyranny, is not only good for the long-
suffering Iraqi people, which in itself is important, but is going to be 
good for the long-term for countries which love freedom. Can you imagine 
the historic change, the landmark moment that is taking place now, where 
we've got a free--a country which is emerging to be free and peaceful in 
the midst of a part of the world where violence and tyranny and terror 
have reigned?
    And I view this as an historic moment, and I will share with them, 
just like I share with our own families here, a deep grief,

[[Page 1533]]

my sorrow for the sacrifice, but the fact that what is taking place 
today is a noble cause.

Prime Minister Tony Blair

    Q. Mr. President, to focus it back on Mr. Blair and Britain, here is 
a guy who has lost two Ministers, who has lost a large part of the 
Parliamentary party, and who--it could be said, polls--has lost the 
faith of a large part of the country over Iraq. He's still, as you saw 
the other night in the Lord Mayor's banquet speech, 100 million percent 
there, and this against the great tide of popular opinion. What have you 
got on him? What's the relationship? And what's the----
    The President. Well, that's just Tony----
    Q. And what's the payoff? [Laughter]
    The President. Freedom and peace. Tony Blair is making decisions for 
the right reasons. He is a--in my relationship with him, he is the least 
political person I've dealt with. And I say that out of respect. He 
makes decisions based upon what he thinks is right.
    He's plenty independent. If he thinks--if he thought the policy that 
we have both worked on was wrong, he'd tell me. He believes it's in his 
country's interest that we work for a free and peaceful Iraq. He, as 
much as any world leader, saw the consequences of September the 11th, 
2001. Obviously, there are more--those consequences and that moment has 
directly affected my foreign policy. See, it changed the nature of the 
Presidency. It changed the security arrangements of the United States of 
America. I vowed to the American people I would never forget the lessons 
of September the 11th, 2001, and that is we are no longer protected by 
oceans. We're vulnerable to attack by terrorists.
    Tony Blair understands the devastation that terror can bring to a 
country in a civilized world. He knows the tactics of the terrorists are 
to create fear and chaos. He knows what they want is for the civilized 
world to retreat so that their tyranny and their bloodshed and their 
unbelievable barbaric form of government, like the Taliban, will take 
hold. And he refuses to allow his country to be terrorized, and he 
refuses to allow peoples to become subjugated to that kind of 
ideologies. And I respect him greatly for that.
    And I admire him as a strong leader. He tells you what he thinks, 
and he does what he says he's going to do. And that's about as high a 
compliment as I can pay a fellow leader.

President's Popularity/Decisionmaking

    Q. Mr. President, you're going to find, I think, quite a large 
number of people on the streets demonstrating during your visit for a 
variety of reasons, which highlights a rather striking contrast 
between--you're still a pretty popular President at home, but you're not 
a very popular President in various states around the world.
    The President. Yes.
    Q. Does that--how do you account for the lack of popularity around 
the world? And does it matter to you?
    The President. Well, first of all, I--it's kind of--all I can tell 
you is I went to the Philippines. There was thousands and thousands and 
thousands of people out there, and they were waving with all five 
fingers. [Laughter]
    No, look, I frankly haven't paid that much attention to what you 
just described. But first, I admire a country which welcomes people to 
express their opinion. I'm proud of Great Britain's tradition of free 
speech. I remember going to Hyde Park and seeing Speaker's Corner--what 
do they call it, Speaker's Corner?
    Q. Yes.
    The President. People up there expressing their opinion. And it's 
kind of--it's a longstanding tradition. People speak their mind.
    Q. Mr. President----
    The President. Let me finish here.
    Q. Sure.

[[Page 1534]]

    The President. And I fully understand not everybody is going to 
agree with the decisions I've made. I don't expect everybody to agree. 
And I make decisions based upon--in the foreign policy arena, made 
decisions based upon a couple of principles. One, how best to secure 
America? That's my biggest responsibility. See, I was there right after 
September the 11th. I saw the smoke. I saw the devastation. I heard the 
grief. I hugged the firefighters whose--the families of the firefighters 
who rushed in to save. I saw the heroism. And I vowed right then and 
there that I would use everything in my power to prevent America from 
being attacked again.
    But there's a greater ambition as well, because I understand that 
free societies are societies which do not breed terror. And I gave a 
speech the other day, and in that speech I said the are certain folks 
who I think don't believe that freedom can take hold in parts of our 
world. And I reminded them about some of the statements about the post-
World War II Japan, that there were some skeptics who said that, well, 
Japan couldn't possibly be a free society or a democratic society.
    I thought about that when I was eating dinner with Koizumi, Prime Minister Koizumi--he's a good friend--
thinking about what would happen if we had not done a good job with the 
peace after World War II. Would America and Japan be able to work 
together, for example, on the North Korean issue, had it not been done 
right?
    My point to you is that free societies and democratic societies are 
transforming societies. And we have a chance to transform by working 
together, transform in a positive way whole societies and whole regions 
of the world.
    And finally--and people don't--I can understand people not liking 
war, if that's what they're there to protest. I don't like war. War is 
the last choice a President should make, not the first. And it was the 
last choice, after endless years of diplomacy took place--resolution 
after resolution after resolution after resolution that was put forth in 
the U.N. condemning the--and warning the world, frankly, of the dangers 
of Saddam Hussein and condemning his programs 
and insisting that he disarm. And finally, in 1141, as you know, by 
unanimous vote, the world said--at least the U.N. Security Council said, 
``Disarm or there will be serious consequences.''
    And he didn't disarm. He had no intention 
of disarming. And so then the fundamental question came down to a couple 
of things, one, the definition of serious consequence. Serious 
consequence is not another resolution or another debate inside the U.N. 
And I understand people loathe war. So do I. And yet, we are war. That's 
what September the 11th taught us. It's a different kind of war. And I 
intend to, so long as I'm the President, wage that war vigorously to 
protect the American people.
    And there's all kinds of ways to wage it. And the best way to win, 
in the long run, though, is the spread of freedom. And that's what's 
happening. But sure, I can understand people not agreeing with the 
decision I made.
    Q. But it is striking, isn't it, that opinion poll after opinion 
poll----
    The President. I don't know. I don't read them.
    Q. ----huge solidarity after 9/11----
    The President. I just don't pay attention to the polls. If I were 
trying to be President paying attention on the polls, I'd be running 
around in circles. It's a great--that's one of the reasons I've got 
Winston Churchill's bust here is, at least from my reading of the 
history, he pretty much said what he thought, did what he thought was 
right, and led. He was courageous in his leadership.
    And you know the interesting thing about Presidents and Prime 
Ministers is you're never going to be around to judge history, judge the 
true merit of the history, of the decisions you make. Short-term history 
is--

[[Page 1535]]

it's hard to call it unobjective. It's very subjective, I guess, is the 
best way to put it. After all, the person who has written the history 
hasn't had a chance to see the full effects of the decisionmaking.
    And in my case, most of the short-term historians probably aren't 
that thrilled with me being President in the first place, which might 
color the short-term history. [Laughter] But my only point is, I think a 
President must not try to write the legacy of every moment. The 
President just does what he thinks is right and try to explain as 
clearly as I can--part of the purpose of my visit to your great country 
is to use the opportunities I've had to speak directly, like I'm doing 
right now, to people about why I made the decisions I made.
    Go ahead, go ahead.

Iraq

    Q. On Iraq, you mentioned you're having intensive consultations 
these days----
    The President. Constantly.
    Q. Yes.
    The President. With Blair, by the way.
    Q. Indeed.
    The President. Weekly.
    Q. Seeming to point to the need to hand over--or a desire to hand 
over power faster to the Iraqis? Where is this going?
    The President. Yes. Well, we--Jerry Bremer is here in town today. I think he just had a 
press availability. And we discussed all options and just to make sure 
we understand where we are relative to the situation on the ground.
    We want the Iraqis to understand that we believe they're plenty 
capable of running their own country. See, we're of the school of 
thought, this administration--and Tony is the same way, if I could put 
words in his mouth--that believe the Iraqi people are plenty capable of 
running a peaceful country.
    And therefore, the sooner the people--the more the people realize 
that, I think the more comfortable they'll be with their future. And the 
sooner that sovereignty is handed over in a way commensurate with a--
with a stable country, the better off it is. That's been our position 
all along. So we're constantly reviewing the progress.
    There's been--obviously, it's tough. We lost Italian police today. 
These killers are--they're hardnosed people. They'll kill because they 
want to intimidate. They want us to leave. That's their goal.
    They've got different ambitions. Some would like to see a Taliban-
type government, that would be the mujahideen-type people. Some want to 
revenge the loss--the defeat in Afghanistan. They would be your Al-
Qaida-types. And the Ba'athists, of course, want to get back in power. 
They represent roughly 18 percent of the people, and they've had 100 
percent of the power, and they like that. And obviously, in a free 
society, that's not going to be the case, power sharing as opposed to 
not power sharing.
    And so there are elements of the Ba'athists and Saddam holdouts that are desperately trying--and I use the 
word ``desperate'' because they see the progress being made. And there 
is progress being made. And I certainly don't want to underestimate the 
security situation. I know how tough it is. I know how tough it is 
firsthand.
    And yet, on the humanitarian side, in 7 months we've got a new 
currency moving through the system, which is pretty remarkable when you 
think about it. The oil revenues, which belong to the Iraqi people, are 
now up to 2.1 million barrels. Prior to going in, I think if you were to 
review some of the writings and speculation, they would have said, 
``Well, that's what's going to take place if the oil reserves are 
destroyed. How is the coalition going to handle that?''
    You might remember there was talk about sectarian violence, that all 
we would do is create a vacuum and longstanding bitterness and hatred 
would take hold, and Shi'ites and Sunnis and Kurds would all be after 
each other. That hasn't happened.

[[Page 1536]]

    Electricity is up to prewar levels, although it has dipped this 
month because of maintenance. My only point to you is that these killers 
are beginning to see a society begin to emerge, a peaceful society, 
which is a major defeat for terror. And you bet we're consulting on a 
regular basis to determine how best to deal with the tactics on the 
ground. The enemy is changing tactics, and we'll change tactics with 
them.
    But I do--I talk to Tony a lot. He's got good 
wisdom on this subject. Our intelligence services are very close. Our 
militaries are talking to each other. You've got this--Government 
officials there amongst the CPA, and our relationship is good there. And 
it's very important for us to continue to discuss these issues closely. 
And then, of course, I stay in touch with Bremer. And--sorry.
    Q. Well----
    The President. Are you trying to dominate? You're doing a fine job. 
[Laughter] No, go ahead.
    Q. No, go----
    The President. We'll make it around. I promise you. I'll wait. Nice 
try. I call down to these characters all the time for hogging the mike, 
as we say. He's one of the worst of them.

Blair/Bush Relationship

    Q. Regarding the nature of the pressure that Prime Minister Blair is 
under, is that putting pressure on the decisionmaking, your own 
relationship----
    The President. Not as far as I can tell.
    Q. Or pressure for change or change of tactic or anything?
    The President. Never once has he said to me, ever, ``Gosh, I'm 
feeling terrible pressure.'' Our discussions go as you would hope 
leaders of two allies would go: What can we do to help each other? What 
can we do to succeed? I have never heard him complain about the polls or 
wring his hands. I'm telling you, the relationship is a very good 
relationship because I admire him, and I admire somebody who stands 
tough. And I admire somebody who has got a vision which is a vision that 
is peaceful, and somebody who shares that same deep feeling that freedom 
is an incredibly important part of changing the world. Free societies do 
not attack each other. And Tony Blair doesn't hold an elitist view that 
says only certain people should be free or can be free or capable of 
freedom. And I admire that in him.
    And so to answer your question, you say he's--look, it may be hard 
for you to believe, and these guys will tell you, I--and ladies will 
tell you, excuse me, guys and ladies--that my style of leadership is to 
lay out an agenda based upon principle and lead. And I don't pay that 
much attention to what is written about me or polls. And I think they 
will verify that what I've just told you is true. And it's not to say I 
don't respect the press. I do respect the press. But sometimes it's hard 
to be an optimistic leader. A leader must project an optimistic view. 
It's hard to be optimistic if you read a bunch of stuff about yourself, 
if you know what I mean.
    I don't know how much time Tony looks at polls or anything. I'm just 
telling you from my perspective, my relationship, he is the kind of 
person with whom I like to consult, a person I'm proud to call friend, 
because he's willing to make the tough decision and stand by it. And he 
makes a tough decision based upon what he thinks is right.

Flexibility in Foreign Policy

    Q. Mr. President, we've heard--or heard from the administration 
emanating the phrase, ``No war in '04.''
    The President. Who said that?
    Q. Behind the scenes.
    The President. Oh, yes. Is that you, Lindlaw [Scott Lindlaw, 
Associated Press]? [Laughter]
    Q. Well, there you go. It's now in the lexicon.

[[Page 1537]]

    The President. We're at war. We are at war, see? I don't mean to 
anticipate your question, but I'm just going to tell you, we're at war 
now. We're at war with terror. But go ahead.
    Q. My point is----
    The President. And Iraq is just one of the--is a front in the war on 
terror.
    Q. That's where I'm going. I'm going to Syria, and I'm going to 
Iran. These are countries which, by the criteria of Iraq, you could 
argue, have the same application.
    The President. Not really, because remember, the--first of all, not 
every situation needs to be resolved through military action, and I 
would cite you North Korea and Iran. Secondly, the case in Iraq was 
unique, is unique, because the world, for over a decade, had spoken. The 
diplomatic route was tried. No one can argue with that. We tried, I 
think it was 12 resolutions, if I'm not mistaken, culminating in 1441 
which said, ``Disarm, or you face serious consequences.'' I remember 
going to the U.N. to give that speech. And basically I was looking 
forward to giving that speech because I wanted the U.N. to understand 
that they are a vital institution, but their vitality depended upon 
their willingness to have some meaning to their words.
    And we're at war. Okay? The war on terror goes on. And the war on 
terror is going to take a while. America is vulnerable to attack. So is 
your country, by the way. And the only way to win this war is to do 
everything you can to protect your homeland but to stay on the 
offensive, which is what we're going to do.
    And having said that, not every situation requires a military 
response. As a matter of fact, I would hope very few situations would 
require a military response. Let me talk about Iran. The Iranians must 
hear from a unified world that it is unacceptable for them to develop a 
nuclear weapon. And I want to thank--I thanked Tony the other day on our videoconference we had, for he and 
his Foreign Minister Straw and the French Foreign 
Minister and the German Foreign 
Minister, delivering a message on behalf of 
all of us that a nuclear weapon is unacceptable. The IAEA, an 
international organization, as you know, based out of the United 
Nations, is now very much involved in this issue. The United States 
position is, is that we appreciate their focus, and we expect there to 
be a transparent regime inside of Iran. They admitted they had--were 
enriching, that they hadn't disclosed their enrichment under the Nuclear 
Non-Proliferation Treaty. They had made that admission, which says that 
we need to be on guard.
    My point to you in regards to your question on war is that there is 
a way to deal with this issue in an international forum, which we are 
now doing. There's bilateral pressure; there's trilateral pressure; and 
there is multilateral pressure, I guess is the best way to put it. And 
that's the best way to deal with it.
    Let me talk about North Korea, if you don't mind, right quick, to 
show you, at least, how I think on foreign policy issues. North Korea is 
a--had a bilateral relation with the United States, and the leader would 
insist that the United States come to the table and provide different 
aid, and he, the leader, would not--``he,'' Kim Chong-il, would not develop a nuclear weapon. And so our country 
agreed to that. It turns out he was developing highly enriched uranium 
suitable for a nuclear weapon. The thought of Kim Chong-il having a 
nuclear weapon is very dangerous and/or the capacity to export a nuclear 
weapon into the hands of terrorists.
    By the way, terrorist networks who are willing to kill with car 
bombs are also willing to kill on a massive scale. The idea of weapons 
of mass destruction in the hands of terrorist organizations is a 
dangerous, dangerous thought for the 21st century. And we've got to deal 
with it.
    So I looked at the history and realized that the bilateral relations 
with Kim Chong-il hadn't worked. There's a real 
politic here, when somebody says they're going to do

[[Page 1538]]

something and they don't do it. That should be a warning signal, and it 
was. So I went and worked with the Chinese and convinced the Chinese 
through a variety of means of argument that they need to be involved, 
and they now are involved. They're hosting these talks. So you've got 
the Chinese, and you've got the Americans, and of course, South Korea 
and Japan and now Russia are all involved. So you've got five countries 
saying the same message to Kim Chong-il: We expect you not to develop a 
nuclear weapons program.
    And my point to you is, is that there are ways to rally 
constituencies and nations toward a common objective, which is precisely 
what we're doing. That is exactly what the U.N. tried to do and others 
tried to do, and the U.N., as far as Iraq went. It's just at the end, 
some countries decided that serious consequences meant something other 
than--something different than what I thought serious consequences 
meant, I guess is the best way to put it.

Steel Tariffs

    Q. Can I ask a question about trade?
    The President. Please, yes. Let me guess. [Laughter]
    Q. You had a ruling on Monday----
    The President. We did.
    Q. ----which was not favorable to the U.S. decision last year. Are 
you going to lift the tax?
    The President. Well, let me kind of review the bidding right quick 
on this issue. The International Trade Commission ruled that imports 
were harming the industry. Therefore, I felt obligated to take a look at 
that ruling and make a decision based upon that ruling, which as you 
know, I did. And we're now in the process of looking at a lot of things. 
One, of course, is whether or not the respite given helped the industry 
to restructure and to the extent at which it did restructure.
    Somebody went off.
    Q. Not me.
    The President. I would hate for this profundity to be lost. 
[Laughter] To answer--a very short answer--I am listening, looking, and 
we'll decide at an appropriate time. I haven't made up my mind yet.

Iraq and Afghanistan/Democracy in the Middle East

    Q. Just one last question on Iraq and Afghanistan.
    The President. Sure.
    Q. Is it really--it's inconceivable that you could consider pulling 
out----
    The President. It is inconceivable.
    Q. However, bin Laden is at large, and Saddam Hussein. How close are 
you to finding these people?
    The President. No, first of all, I wouldn't--I think that your--let 
me answer your question this way. We will find them. Okay? Yes, we're not 
pulling out until the job is done. Period.
    Q. And that includes finding those two?
    The President. Yes, that's part of it. But even bigger is a free and 
democratic society. That is the mission. And again, I'd repeat--I know 
I'm sounding like a broken record to you. I just want you to get a sense 
for how strongly I feel for the mission we are on.
    I gave a speech the other--I think I might have--or mentioned it to 
you. I gave a speech about democracy in the Middle East. I believe a--
first of all, I believe that the Middle Eastern countries are plenty 
capable of being democratic countries. Their democracy won't be Western. 
We don't expect them to look like America. We expect the governments to 
be modern, however, and that includes, well, women's rights and 
including women into the future of their societies.
    So the mission in Iraq is a free and peaceful and stable country. It 
will be a--this is a transforming mission. It is a milestone, as I said 
it, a milestone in the history of liberty. And Tony Blair understands that. He looks--and I would hope--what they 
would say this of me: I look beyond the

[[Page 1539]]

signs and the moment to be able to see out, out in years, out in 
history.
     It's an exciting time to be leaders of our two countries. It is 
exciting in the sense that, working together, we can transform society 
in a positive way. And I say, ``working together,'' I mean with 
everybody. There's some unbelievable devastation besides terror going on 
in the world. And I look forward to reminding the British people that 
our country proudly is leading the world when it comes to the battle of 
AIDS. I put forth an initiative of $15 billion, $10 billion new money on 
top of $5 billion we're already spending over a 5-year period of time, 
to help get antiretroviral drugs into the hands of the healers and 
helpers that are in these ravished countries. Can you imagine living in 
a world--we are living in a world, you don't need to imagine it, it's 
happening--in a world in which the pandemic of AIDS is wiping out an 
entire generation on a continent? And we must do something about it. And 
it's sad, and yet, we have an opportunity to lead.
    And I look forward to talking to my good friend about how we can 
work together. And it's not only the United States working with Britain; 
it's the United States working with Europe, whole, free, and at peace--
whole, free, and at peace. Today I was able to present the Medal of 
Freedom, which is the highest civil award that I give, to Lord George 
Robertson. I don't know if you all were in 
there and saw it or not. Were you there?
    Q. On TV.
    The President. Yes, I'm sorry. Well, you know, security risk. 
[Laughter]
    Anyway, it was a--but the reason I bring that up is that during my 
tenure here as President, we worked with George and Tony Blair and other 
countries to expand NATO and the most significant expansion ever, except 
for the initial thrust. And we expanded to the Baltics. And by the way, 
we not only expanded to the Baltics, but at the same--in the same period 
of time, got rid of the ABM Treaty, which I felt codified hatred and 
distrust.
    And yet, relations are good. And we're moving forward. NATO is an 
incredibly important institution, and NATO is an instrument for freedom.
    Yes, one last.
    Q. One last question. Can I ask a question about European defense?
    The President. Yes. Anyway, what I was going to say is, is that the 
relations with Europe are vital and important. We've got good relations. 
Obviously, there was some disgruntlement about the decision made on 
Iraq, but I would remind you that Germany has troops in Afghanistan 
supporting that mission there, for which we're very grateful. And 
they're doing a darn good job.
    Yes, last question. Yes, okay, last two questions, then I've got to 
go. I'm heading toward television. I'm trying to beam my way into Great 
Britain.
    Q. David Frost will wait. [Laughter]
    The President. That's easy for you to say. He gets to ask the questions, not you. Go ahead. 
[Laughter]

European Defense Force

    Q. There was a fuss from American officials after Tony Blair met 
with Jacques Chirac and Gerhard Schroeder in Berlin and appeared to take 
forward the European initiative on defense. I wanted to ask you what 
your administration was worried about--whether you could trust Tony 
Blair to keep the thing--Atlantic alliance----
    The President. Let me make sure you understand our position. What we 
believe, that Europe needs to take more of a defense posture and should 
act independently of NATO if NATO chooses not to take on the mission. We 
also believe that the European Defense Force--we agree with Tony 
Blair that it should not undermine the vitality 
of the NATO mission. And I trust Tony Blair to make the right decision 
there.
    I don't know what chirping you're hearing about it, but at least in 
the President's

[[Page 1540]]

chair, I'm confident that when he says--this is 
the man, remember, he has told me things and has stuck to his word. And 
therefore, I say with confidence that when he says to me that NATO is a 
vital relationship and the European Defense Force will not undermine 
NATO's capacities and/or ability to move when it needs to move, I 
believe him.
    Last question.

President's Upcoming Visit to the United Kingdom

    Q. Yes, if I may, I gather your program includes a visit to the 
northeast of England----
    The President. It does.
    Q. ----which is Jordyland. And I was wondering how your Jordy was, 
and how you might all understand each other?
    The President. My Jordy is probably just about as bad as my English. 
[Laughter] And I hope they understand Texan. You know what I'm saying?
    Q. Yes, exactly.
    The President. We may be talking above each other. I can't wait to 
go to his constituency. It's going to be--it will be good to get out 
into the countryside. I like--it's hard for a President to get out to 
the countryside. I travel in somewhat of a bubble.
    Q. You'll need your phrase book.
    The President. What?
    Q. You'll need your phrase book while you're out there.
    The President. Yes. They'll need theirs too, I'm afraid. [Laughter] 
But I'm looking forward to it. This is going to be an historic trip, and 
it's going to be one that will be in my memory for a long time. I'm 
really looking forward to it.
    I appreciate you all giving me a chance to visit with you. Thanks 
for coming by.

Note: The interview was taped at 2:08 p.m. on November 12 in the Oval 
Office at the White House. The transcript was made available by the 
Office of the Press Secretary on November 12 but was embargoed for 
release until noon, November 14. In his remarks, the President referred 
to Joseph I. O'Neill III, managing partner, O'Neill Properties, Ltd.; 
Queen Elizabeth II and Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth 
Affairs Jack Straw of the United Kingdom; Prime Minister Junichiro 
Koizumi of Japan; former President Saddam Hussein of Iraq; L. Paul 
Bremer III, Presidential Envoy to Iraq; Minister of Foreign Affairs 
Dominique de Villepin of France; Minister of Foreign Affairs Joschka 
Fischer of Germany; Chairman Kim Chong-il of North Korea; and Secretary 
General Lord Robertson of NATO. Journalists referred to Lord Mayor 
Robert Finch of London, United Kingdom; Usama bin Laden, leader of the 
Al Qaida terrorist organization; television journalist Sir David Frost 
of the BBC; President Jacques Chirac of France; and Chancellor Gerhard 
Schroeder of Germany. Participants in the interview were: Andrew Gowers, 
Financial Times; Martin Newland, Daily Telegraph; and Paul Potts, Press 
Association. A tape was not available for verification of the content of 
this interview.