[Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: George W. Bush (2003, Book II)]
[October 2, 2003]
[Pages 1223-1231]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]
[[Page 1223]]
Interview With African Journalists
October 2, 2003
The President. Listen, thanks. Just a couple of thoughts and then
I'll answer your questions.
I'm really looking forward to welcoming President Kibaki here to Washington for a state dinner. It's quite a
dramatic event. I think the President will really enjoy the ceremony we
have. My first hope is that the weather accommodates the arrival,
because it is impressive. And it's a way for us to send a strong
message, not only to the President but to the people of Kenya, that one,
we respect the friendship, two, we like the cooperation that we have,
particularly on counterterrorism, three, we respect democracy in our
country, and we like leaders who uphold the democratic traditions. The
President has done that. It was a good, clean election. He won
overwhelmingly. He is following through on some of his campaign pledges,
which is an important part of democracy. One of the campaign pledges, as
you know, is he's interested in fighting corruption, and he's taking
action.
Our visit is a chance to signal clearly that our strategy on the
continent of Africa to work with nations to help solve regional disputes
and, particularly in this case, the Sudan, where the Kenyan Government
has been most helpful and very constructive. So this is an important
visit for us. It comes on the heels of my trip to the continent. It was
an impressive trip for me. I remember it and will remember it for a long
time.
There are issues on the continent that are important for America,
and there are opportunities on the continent that are important for the
people on the continent and the world. And Kenya is a key player and a
leader in east Africa. So that's why he's coming, and I look forward to
it. It's going to be a grand day.
Let me answer a couple of questions. We'll go around and save
Charlie until the last here.
Martin.
Arrest of Kenyan Journalists
Q. Mr. President, it's a pleasure to be here. Overall----
The President. Please don't take it personally, Charlie. [Laughter]
Q. Overall, how does Kenya rank on your scorecard, since a new
government took over in January? And in that light, how do you--what
would you say about recent events where three journalists were arrested
and intimidated into talking about, you know, where they got a source.
Kenya has a leak issue of its own. [Laughter] That kind of seemed to----
The President. Yes. I'm against leaks, Martin. [Laughter] And I
would suggest all governments get to the bottom of every leak of
classified information. [Laughter] And by the way, if you know anything,
Martin, would you please bring it forward and help solve the problem?
[Laughter]
Q. In this particular case, it's actually the method with which they
went around dealing with it. That kind of, like, sent a chilling
message.
The President. No, I understand. First, the fact that Kenya is
coming--the President is coming for a state
dinner, as I say, is a sign of our respect for the President and for the
importance of Kenya and meeting common goals and common objectives.
Our country believes in a free press, a free, unfettered press. And
we believe that part of having a society which is able to battle
corruption is a society in which the press flourishes. And I must say, I
don't know all the particulars, so it's hard for me to comment about
this particular incident, but I will make the case that a free
[[Page 1224]]
press is essential to a democratic and free and honest government. The
press, you know, has got the capability, a very powerful capability of
holding people to account, and I respect that element in the press.
So, again, I don't know the particulars, but the President will hear me talk about all aspects of democracy.
Kevin.
Travel to Kenya/Terrorism
Q. Yes. Mr. President, thank you very much for inviting me. I
appreciate it very much.
You mentioned in your opening remarks about Kenya's cooperation with
the United States on counterterrorism matters. You're no doubt well
aware too that Kenya has been harmed, economically harmed by the many
travel advisories, both by the United States and Britain, that have been
issued, no doubt for warranted reasons. But at the same time, is there a
way that the United States can be helpful to Kenya in this respect?
The President. Well, first of all, a lot of Americans love to travel
to Kenya. It is a spectacular destination spot. We have an obligation as
a government to call it as we see it, though, when it comes to security
matters. It's very important for us as a government to maintain our
credibility with the American people and to say--you know, to make
assessments. And we have made the assessment that at the moment, Kenya
is a place where our citizens should be wary of traveling. And the
bombing of Mombasa is clearly an example of what we're talking about.
However, we also believe it's important to work with Kenya to
relieve the situation. It's not only for our own national interests;
it's for Kenya's interest that we mutually deal with terrorists. That's
why we put forth the $100 million on the East African Counterterrorism
Initiative. Kenya will be a key player in that. Kenya has been very
cooperative on intel; we're sharing intelligence.
The intent of the terrorists, of course, is to spread fear. That's
one of their weapons, in that they're willing to kill innocent people,
in that they're willing to murder anybody who is convenient to murder.
They then are able to spread fear, and one of the consequences of
terrorist activity is to create an environment of fear. We're working
with Kenya to relieve the environment.
And you know, we had a restriction on our families at the Embassy;
that has been changed. So in other words, things are improving. And at
some point in time, hopefully soon, we'll be able to make a declaration
about Kenya. But we will do so, you know, by keeping, kind of, the real
situation in mind. And I do want to emphasize, though, that obviously we
don't believe that the situation is permanent. Otherwise, we wouldn't be
dealing with the President like we are, in kind of a very public way.
And we believe that together we can change circumstances. We have seen
circumstances change from lack of security to security, a place where it
was hard to travel to a place where it's easy to recommend travel. And I
believe that can happen here in Kenya.
But I understand fully the concerns of people who make a living as a
result of U.S. citizens and citizens from Great Britain traveling.
Q. Right, right. And if I may, I mean, the Government--the Kenyan
Government obviously looks to the United States to be supportive and
helpful. And the advisories have had the opposite effect. I recognize
that you're trying to do what you can----
The President. No, actually, I'm sure the President will bring this up. I hope he does bring this up,
because we will be able to explore ways to work to create the conditions
so that the advisories can come off.
And we just want--but we err on the side of caution when it comes to
issuing advisories. You know, we'd all like to--we certainly don't want
to damage our friend, unnecessarily damage our friend. On the other
hand, we have an obligation to be
[[Page 1225]]
frank and honest with the American people. So we'll work through it.
Q. Thank you.
The President. Thank you, Kevin.
Esther.
Global HIV/AIDS Initiative
Q. Thank you, Mr. President, for this opportunity to talk to you
this morning. Looking back, Mr. President, you've talked about your trip
in Africa. And I'm wondering whether there's anything that you look back
and say the U.S. did not involve itself with Africa and which you would
like to do now, when you're in the office?
The President. Well, I felt like we needed to expand the AIDS
initiative. But I felt that way before I went. And so when I went, I
was, one, delivering the message that we will help. We will help to the
tune of $15 billion over 5 years. There's been, you know, debate about
whether or not I meant $15 billion over 5. I do mean it. But some have
suggested, well, maybe the best way to spend that money is divide $15
billion by 5, and it will be $3 billion a year. We think there's a
better way to do it, and we're working with Congress to get the
appropriations out as we speak.
The judgment from the administration's perspective and listening to
the experts is it's best to ramp up, start slower and end up with more
in the end, in order to make sure the dollars are spent efficiently and
that help is delivered in a way that saves lives. And that's what we're
working through with the Congress right now, through the appropriations
process. But my message was, is that we're very sincere about this
program and that the United States must expand its efforts.
I also was really, as best as I could, calibrating the delivery
systems in some of the countries we went to. In other words, it's one
thing to provide the aid and the money and the medicines. The other
question is, can they actually get to the people that need help? The
vibrancy of the faith-based programs or the charities or the NGOs--how
strong are they in these receptive countries? How receptive is the
Government to receive the help? Will the Government be counterproductive
to our efforts?
And you know, look, admittedly, I didn't go to every single country
that's going to receive help from this emergency AIDS initiative. But it
gave me a sense to then be able to listen to others who had been to the
countries and to calibrate and to get a sense of what the
infrastructures look like. Kenya is a part of this initiative. And I
look forward to talking to the President about this initiative. It is a
vital initiative.
Slavery in West Africa
Q. Mr. President, I'm wondering about the 58th session of the U.N.
General Assembly, where you talked about illegal trade of human
trafficking, which is rampant in west Africa, like Togo, Benin, and
Burkina Faso. And I'm wondering what the U.S. Government is doing in
collaboration with the African governments to eradicate this problem,
which also comes about because of poverty, some parents willing to give
out their children to go and work as sex slaves or do cheap labor,
because they have no money.
The President. Well, no, I appreciate that. It's hard to believe a
parent would be willing to send their daughter into sex slavery,
willingly. But in--yes, I mean, as a dad, it's just hard for me to
fathom.
Q. They probably won't know what happens to their children, but they
give them for money.
The President. Well, yes, they're not specifically--that's what I
thought. I mean, I doubt that they would--you know, I don't know. Look,
first, it's to improve the economic of the continent by trade. AGOA is a
real opportunity, and we're sincere about AGOA. And we believe in AGOA,
and we're leading the way on AGOA. And that will help, hopefully,
alleviate the poverty that sends people into such desperate straits that
they're willing to sell their child--in essence, is what you're saying.
[[Page 1226]]
Secondly, in terms of the role of the United States in terms of sex
slavery, it is very essential for the United States to start with the
big megaphone, which is what I did. And I called upon the Security
Council, kind of the collection of nations, to speak with one voice. And
then we can start working bilaterally. It's not just in western Africa
where there's an issue. There's an issue in parts of Europe. There's an
issue in parts of the Far East. And I intend to bring this issue up as I
meet with leaders, particularly in affected areas.
I've met with--gosh, I don't know how many leaders of African
nations I have met with. I would say a lot.
African Affairs Senior Director Jendayi Frazer. Over 26.
The President. My only point is, is that I'm constantly meeting with
leaders, which will give me an opportunity to bring this issue up. In
order to solve the problem, it's not only the need to address poverty;
it's also the need for governments to deal with those who are the slave
traders or the slave masters, however you want to call them. We've dealt
with this issue once in our civilized history. Unfortunately, as I
mentioned, we need to deal with it again.
So this is an effort where it's going to take a collective effort
around the world. The United States alone cannot change. We can do our
part about sending signals. We can do our part about helping alleviate
poverty. We can do our part about--and by the way, we've got a program,
one of the most active programs--we're the active nation in the world
when it comes to helping alleviate hunger, for example. Maybe that's
part of the root cause of--I know it's part of the root cause of
desperation as well as disease. But we also pass laws and hold people to
account. In other words, it's one thing to call for action, but then we
must do it ourselves. And we've got the laws on the books to do so and
will.
Charlie, it's about time. [Laughter]
Situation in Zimbabwe
Q. Yes, sir. On your trip to Africa, after your meeting with
President Mbeki in South Africa, we felt that your attitude or stance
was that you would let President Mbeki and the regional leaders in
southern Africa take the lead on Zimbabwe.
The President. Zimbabwe, yes.
Q. Yes. Zimbabwe, if anything, has gotten worse. Are you satisfied
with the kind of pressures that Mbeki has--President Mbeki has placed or
the countries of the neighborhood has placed on Zimbabwe, some
additional pressures?
The President. Let me review the history of this. I did speak very
clearly to President Mbeki about Zimbabwe. I
said, ``You and the neighborhood must deal with this man. You're sending a bad signal to the world.'' Along with
Prime Minister Blair, we've been the two most
outspoken leaders on this issue. And then our Secretary of State has followed up consistently.
I know there was an impression at the press conference, where I
publicly said, ``Mr. Mbeki assures me he'll deal
with this issue,'' in essence is what I said. But no, our Government has
not changed our opinion about the need for the region to deal with
Zimbabwe and the leadership there. In order for there to be a country, a
prosperous country, it is--this is a country which was a food exporter,
in a region that needs food. It's a country where the economy has fallen
apart as the result of bad governance.
And we're constantly making the point to leadership that comes in. I
made the point in New York to the leader of Mozambique, who is in the neighborhood.
Q. Oops, my tape--don't worry.
The President. I'm just getting--cranking up, Charlie. [Laughter]
Q. I will remember. [Laughter]
The President. No, you won't remember. It's impossible to remember
eloquence. [Laughter] You must capture it. [Laughter]
[[Page 1227]]
No, nobody should read any--look, we are pressing the issue
regularly.
Q. Are you satisfied, though, with what Mr. Mbeki and the other
people are doing?
The President. The only time that this Government and I, personally,
will be satisfied is when there is an honest government, reformed
government, in Zimbabwe. That's our goal. That's the definition of
satisfaction. And that hasn't happened yet. Therefore, we're not
satisfied.
Q. With Mr. Mugabe or Mr. Mbeki?
The President. With the process. Well, certainly not with Mr.
Mugabe. And when President Mbeki says they are working on it, to achieve this goal, I
take him for his word. And I am going to remind all parties that the
goal is a reformed and fair government. And that hasn't been achieved
yet. And we'll continue to press the issue, both privately and publicly,
which I just did.
Q. Mr. President, can I ask about----
The President. Not yet. [Laughter] We're having an orderly
discussion. It reminds me of an American press conference. When I ask
the journalists, please ask one question, and they ask four or five at
the same time in the same breath. It's hard to believe--there's a
tremendous lack of discipline in the U.S. press corps. [Laughter] Like
the other day, I was embarrassed when the AP--a fantastic organization,
a wonderful reporter--was able to ask four questions in one breath--
[laughter]--setting a terrible precedent for the Russian press that
followed up.
Q. I have four today, sir. [Laughter]
The President. I'm sure you do. You've already asked one: ``How's
the knee?''
Q. Three, then. [Laughter]
African Growth and Opportunity Act/Millennium Challenge Accounts
Q. Mr. President, you mentioned AGOA and how it's anticipated that
it will help alleviate poverty in Africa. However, most countries in
Africa are still struggling just to begin to export products and don't
seem to have the capacity to fully exploit what AGOA promises. And that
seems to be an ongoing issue. If it's textiles, there's no capacity to
reach the maximum quotas reserved for Africa. And by extension----
The President. So far.
Q. Right. And AGOA seems to be Africa's stepping stone to
globalization. Now, just recently, the World Trade Organization meeting
collapsed, and that seemed to symbolize a growing frustration among most
developing countries, and particularly in Africa, that globalization and
AGOA in the same--is not really fair. It's not a level playing field.
Does this whole process need to be rethought to try to give them a
little more capacity, to probably go in and try and build structures so
that they can compete?
The President. Yes, listen, here--we've got a full-scale strategy on
dealing with economic opportunity. First, let me talk about the
Millennium Challenge Account, which is a central part of the strategy,
which basically says we're willing to add aid if countries develop the
habits necessary to be able to develop a just and honorable society:
transparency, anti-corruption, focus on the people, a market orientation
to their economy.
Secondly, AGOA creates opportunity. It's up to the nations to seize
the opportunity. Our aid will help. We're more than willing to work with
nations to help develop an entrepreneurial class that is able to seize
the moment. And AGOA treats African nations fairly when it comes to our
markets. And so our strategy is to help African nations develop the
infrastructure necessary to achieve the markets.
And it starts with good governance, in our judgment. That's the best
thing we can affect--and fight corruption, going to insist upon
transparency, insist upon education practices that will help, and we
provide help for this. On a wide range of areas, we help nations help
themselves develop the economy necessary to take advantage of trade.
[[Page 1228]]
I believe that trade is the only way to help nations grow out of
poverty. And so we've been open with our markets. The bilateral
relationship between the United States and the continent of Africa is a
strong relationship. I was sorry to see that there was a setback at the
World Trade Organization, because I think that global trade will benefit
the African Continent as well. It's important to open up markets, and
that will provide opportunity for the African business sector.
And there's been good progress in many countries, by the way, as a
result of AGOA. The amount of trade that is coming to the United States
from the continent is dramatic. I can't cite the statistic exactly right
this second. If I'm not mistaken, the trade from Kenya to the United
States is upward of $400 million.
Q. Yes, it's up substantially.
The President. That's substantial. Martin, that's good progress. I
think expectations ought to be realistic that market-oriented economies
aren't going to happen instantly. It takes--there's a process that will
help, but the fact that trade is up $400 million in Kenya is very
positive. It means there's more activity, more jobs, more hope, more
opportunity, all of which can be fostered by good, honest government, by
the way, or it can be squandered by corrupt government. And that's one
of the reasons why the Millennium Challenge Account is part of our
strategy on the continent, is to promote the habits of good and honest,
decent government.
Kevin.
Kenya's Role in Africa
Q. Yes, thank you, Mr. President. You mentioned Sudan at the outset
and the importance of Kenya and moving negotiations forward. Kenya has
often seen itself as an island of stability surrounded by countries that
have had serious conflicts and continue to have. Is the United States
going to be discussing that with Mr. Kibaki and perhaps offering some
specific assistance as Kenya tries to bring peace to Somalia, Sudan, and
the Great Lakes region?
The President. Yes, interesting. Absolutely, we'll be talking about
this, because I view that the best role the United States can play is be
supportive of regional leaders and/or the capacity, for example, of
African peacekeeping forces to carry the task of dealing with civil
dispute. And Kenya is playing a vital role in the Sudan, along with
former Senator Jack Danforth. They work
closely together. It's a vital role to play.
And we will be encouraging President Kibaki
to continue on being a regional leader. We will discuss it. If he has
got suggestions about how our State Department and AID programs can help
him do a better job as a regional leader, we're interested in listening.
We also believe that we ought to continue training forces such as
ECOWAS, as an example, to be prepared to take on peacekeeping missions
on the continent.
Liberia is another--am I answering your question, Charlie?
[Laughter]
Q. No, I've got it in my head here. [Laughter]
The President. I'll save it. That way I won't force you to have to
think of another question. [Laughter] You might have to slip into the
baseball playoffs. [Laughter]
Anyway, yes, we will talk about that. It's a key role. You see, I
believe that Africa is plenty capable--African nations are plenty
capable of dealing with dispute. I believe there are very capable
leaders on the continent who are good, strong leaders. And the role of
the United States is not to supplant them as problemsolvers, but to help
them solve problems. And one of the reasons why I think AGOA is such a
strong statement by the United States is it says we have faith in the
capacity of the people to take advantage of this opportunity.
I talked about the potential of the African Continent. It's way
beyond--oftentimes people talk about the potential of Africa as resource
potential. I view it as people
[[Page 1229]]
potential. And so this country takes a supportive role in dealing with
the leadership and recognizing that there are some strong leaders that
are capable of handling the problems, as opposed to supplanting them.
Q. Thank you.
The President. Esther.
Developing Civil Society in Africa
Q. Mr. President, I'm wondering, as Africa joins the rest of the
world in fighting terrorism, whether there are any plans to involve not
only the governments but also the civil society and religious leaders
who reach the common man?
The President. Yes. You know, the answer is, of course. And let me
put it this way to you--and I say this a lot, Esther, as I explain to
the American people why we make the decisions we make. Free societies
are societies which will not support terror. Free societies are
societies which aren't at war with their neighbors. I mean, freedom has
the capacity to change the behavior of the people.
So, you bet. I mean, a free society is a society which, in itself,
recognizes the value of civil society. Free societies are societies in
which the civil society is the strength of the society. And to the
extent that there are religious leaders preaching hatred that go beyond
the scope of free speech and free religion, we try to work with leaders
to work with their religious counterparts not to preach hatred and
violence. But the United States is committed to the overall spread of
free, honest, open government. That's the heart of the Millennium
Challenge Account.
The Millennium Challenge Account--again, this is--I'm trying to
share with you as much of my philosophy about dealing with the continent
as anything else. I believe--obviously, I believe that people are plenty
capable of developing honest government and transparent government and
focusing resources where they need to be focused. That's why we have
laid out the initiative. That's why we've created this entirely new
approach to foreign aid on the continent and elsewhere, by the way.
It essentially says I believe in the inherent goodness of men and
women and their capacity to govern themselves. And therefore, we want to
work with governments that make that choice. I recognize not everybody
is going to make that choice, and I recognize sometimes the path of
least resistance is corruption. And it's very tempting to take--you
know, the head of a government to be corrupt, as Kenya has learned. And
you've got a leader now who is willing to stand up and fight corruption.
You've got an anti-corruption czar in Kenya, which is a positive
development. Now the person must do their work. You've got anti-
corruption legislation, which is positive development.
And so one of the key messages from this visit is, ``Mr.
Kibaki, you're proving our point. You're
leading. You're showing what is possible.'' And to the extent that we
work with civil--that in itself spurs a civil society which is vibrant
and strong. A civil society--kind of the underpinnings of a free society
as opposed to a centralized government. And the habits of freedom change
the attitudes of people.
Now, look, I readily concede there must be economic vitality and
growth along with that in order to alleviate poverty. And part of the
central component of our AIDS initiative is recognizing that a pandemic
that sweeps through a continent will destroy the hopes of people. It's
incredibly debilitating to the spirit when kids grow up as orphans after
their parents have died a tough death. And this pandemic is wiping out a
generation.
And that's why I feel so passionate about leading the world. Not
just the United States but the world must step up and help in a way that
actually works, in a way that changes the attitudes toward AIDS and save
lives.
Charles.
[[Page 1230]]
Liberia
Q. Yes.
The President. They ever call you ``Charles''?
Q. I had a schoolteacher once call me Charles. [Laughter]
The President. I'll join the crowd. Charles, what's on your mind?
Q. I'm open to learning. [Laughter] I do, indeed, have a Liberia
question.
The President. Thank you, sir. I was hoping you would bring it up.
This isn't the first time you've asked me about Liberia.
Q. No, nor the last.
The President. Nor the last, yes, I was about to say. [Laughter]
Q. There was gunplay in Monrovia, I guess, yesterday.
The President. There was.
Q. There's deep suspicion of this process in the sense that--among
Liberians--that these rebel groups aren't much better than Charles
Taylor. And without getting some significant control of the country,
independent, if you will, anything free and fair seems remote. And
there's puzzlement--which is my question to you, at the--well, what one
Liberian characterized as the aloofness of this administration toward
the Liberian situation in terms of concrete people on the ground.
There's puzzlement over this. How do you respond?
The President. Yes, I respond this way, Charles.
Q. Go ahead.
The President. Got the tape cranked up, will you?
Q. Yes, I want to get----
The President. Once again, this will be a--[laughter].
Q. Yes.
The President. I made it very clear from the beginning, our strategy
in Liberia. Now, remember, I have just told you that I believe on the
continent of Africa is--African nations are plenty capable of dealing
with issues such--of civil unrest, like in Liberia.
And I believe it's very important for our Government to be
consistent in our message, that we will help, we will help train troops.
And I said from day one, Charlie, that we would provide help to ECOWAS--
by the way, a group of folks we helped train in the past--and we would
provide enough presence to enable ECOWAS to come in and do their job.
And we moved a Marine group of troops in, secured the port. Remember the
first issue was the port? Would the United States act to secure the
airport and port? Yes, we did. Would we create the conditions necessary
for ECOWAS to move in, and then eventually blue-helmet the operation,
which happened yesterday, and that encouraged others to participate
along with the United Nations? You bet we did.
Now, we've kept a presence there. We've kept a presence there to
help ECOWAS. So we've done everything we said we would do. And the
strategy has worked. I recognize there was sporadic fire, or however you
want to describe it, yesterday. And I suspect that that may happen on an
infrequent basis.
But the process is working. The United Nations will move in. They
will help supervise the elections. Hopefully, they will be free and
fair. This is a good role for the United Nations. And in the meantime,
more troops will be coming in. We worked collaboratively with the United
Nations to help sign up nations to blue-helmet--to be blue-helmeted. And
so I'm pleased with the progress we have made in Liberia. We have kept
our word. We have done exactly what we said we would do.
Q. Just not exactly what you were asked to do.
The President. Well, sometimes, Charlie, we don't do exactly what
everybody asks us to do. We get a lot of requests. And in this case, it
fit--the strategy was a part of a larger strategy on the continent to
help people help, in this case, the regional situation to resolve it.
[[Page 1231]]
ECOWAS has done a very good job. President Obasanjo gets a lot of
credit for responding and moving Nigerian troops in and providing the
command structure along with our help. I think the situation has turned
out a lot better than people assumed it was going to, and there's
progress still to be done. And the United Nations is now in charge of
the process, but we're keeping people there to help with our Nigerian
friends.
Q. Thank you, Mr. President.
The President. Thank you all, yes. I guess it's over. [Laughter]
Note: The interview began at 9:30 a.m. in the Roosevelt Room at the
White House and was made available by the Office of the Press Secretary
on October 2 but was embargoed for release until 8 p.m. In his remarks,
the President referred to President Mwai Kibaki of Kenya; President
Thabo Mbeki of South Africa; President Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe; Prime
Minister Tony Blair of the United Kingdom; Secretary of State Colin L.
Powell; President Joaquim Alberto Chissano of Mozambique; former Senator
John C. Danforth, Special Envoy for Peace in the Sudan; and President
Olusegun Obasanjo of Nigeria. A reporter referred to former President
Charles Taylor of Liberia. Participating in the interview were Martin
Mbugua, correspondent, Daily Nation; Kevin Kelley, correspondent, The
EastAfrican; Charlie Cobb, senior writer and diplomatic correspondent,
allafrica.com; and Esther Githui, international broadcaster, Voice of
America Swahili Services. A tape was not available for verification of
the content of this interview.