    [Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: George W. Bush (2003, Book II)]
    [November 17, 2003]
    [Pages 1558-1566]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]

    Interview With Trevor Kavanagh of The Sun
    November 17, 2003

    The Oval Office

        The President. Have you ever been in the Oval Office before?
        Mr. Kavanagh. Once, just once.
        The President. Okay. The rug was designed by my wife. Every President gets to design his own rug. You
    probably didn't know that.
        Mr. Kavanagh. Fabulous.
        The President. I wanted mine--mine was designed by my wife,
    Laura. And I wanted people to have a sense of
    optimism when they came in here, that this is a guy who kind of sees a
    better world, not a worse world. Sometimes the Oval can be foreboding,
    and I wanted it to be cheery. So I hope you felt that.
        This is called ``A Charge To Keep.'' It's based upon a Methodist
    hymn. One of America's great imports from England was John Wesley. And
    it talks about serving something greater than yourself, which speaks to
    my own personal faith. As a President, it speaks to my need to capture
    the spirit of America and call on people to serve. You've probably
    followed some of my domestic policy, but one of the things that's
    important is to call on people to serve their communities by helping
    neighbors who hurt. The de Tocquevillean view of America at that point
    was just kind of a civic fabric of loving organizations; part of my
    vision, as well, is to energize them.
        The painting's of Texas. That's kind of what my ranch looks like, by
    a guy named Onderdonk. He's a Texas landscape artist. The bluebonnets
    are not quite that big. Blair and I--well, he's been there, and he would
    recognize kind of the look, if he were here. This is west Texas, where
    my wife's family was raised. We were both raised in west Texas, but this
    is farther west than where I was raised. It's called El Paso. But it's a
    famous Texas artist and historian who painted that.

    [[Page 1559]]

        More Texas. The reason I have Texas up there is it's where I'm from.
    And in this job if you can't figure out who you are--you better know who
    you are because of the pressures and the decisionmaking process and all
    the noise of politics and all that.
        Really quickly, this is a desk given to us by Queen Victoria. A
    famous desk called the U.S.S. Resolute, and it's wood from the Resolute.
    The door was put on by Roosevelt to cover his infirmities. Out of the
    door poked John Kennedy's son----
        Mr. Kavanagh. Oh, yes, I remember.
        The President. I chose to use this. Ronald Reagan put the bottom on to make the desk high so it won't
    bump your knees. I love the desk. I love its history. It does speak to
    the great relationship between America and Great Britain; I'm sitting at
    a desk given to our country by Queen Victoria.
        And finally, the Churchill bust is on loan from the Brits. Tony
    Blair knew I was a great admirer of Churchill, so
    here he sits, along with Lincoln and Eisenhower.
        That's it. Welcome.
        Mr. Kavanagh. Fantastic. Thank you very much, Mr. President. Where
    would you like me?
        The President. Sit right here. Take Vice President Cheney's seat.
        Mr. Kavanagh. I'm more than a little impressed by being here and by
    sitting in this seat.
        The President. Well, you know, this is a shrine to democracy, and we
    treat it as such. And it's an honor to serve here.
        Mr. Kavanagh. Well, I would like to thank you on behalf of our
    readers for giving them and me the time to talk to you.
        The President. Well, I'm glad you're here, thanks.

    World After Afghanistan and Iraq

        Mr. Kavanagh. We're a very pro-American newspaper, and our readers
    were shocked and deeply moved by September the 11th. And they supported
    what happened subsequently in Afghanistan and a little more reluctantly
    in Iraq, but in fact, the majority of our readers were behind the
    action.
        I think what they would like to know--we've talked with them in a
    way which is quite interesting. We actually spent a weekend with about
    2,000 of our readers.
        The President. Really? [Laughter] Good marketing tool. [Laughter]
    That's interesting.
        Mr. Kavanagh. Yes. And the one question they wanted to ask you is,
    is the world a safer place after the conflict than it was before?
        The President. Yes, much safer. It's safer for a couple of reasons.
    One, the free world has recognized the threat. In order to make the
    world safe, you've got to actually see reality. And the reality is that
    there are cold-blooded killers who were trying to intimidate, create
    fear, create hostility, and to shape the will of the civilized world.
        And a lot of countries have seen the threat for what it is. So,
    therefore, step one is recognizing the problem. Tony Blair recognizes the problem. Jose Maria Aznar recognizes the problem. Silvio Berlusconi recognizes the problem. Clearly, the United States
    recognizes the problem. After all, the clearest indication that we were
    at war and that the stakes had changed dramatically was September the
    11th. After all, we were a country which was able to sit back in our--
    kind of in our geographical posture and pick and choose where a threat
    might emerge and say we may have to deal with that or we may not deal
    with it. We were pretty confident that we were protected ourselves by
    oceans. That changed. And one of my vows to the American people is I
    won't forget the lessons of September the 11th, 2001.
        Secondly, the world is safer because the actions we have taken will
    ultimately strengthen multinational institutions. Take the theater in
    Iraq. The United Nations had recognized that Saddam Hussein was a threat. They recognized it in not one

    [[Page 1560]]

    resolution but multiple resolutions and yet didn't do anything about it.
    And therefore, the resolutions became weak, became just words.
        And as a result of enforcing 1441, which said that you disarm or
    there will be serious consequences, now when multinational institutions
    speak, hopefully people will take them seriously. And in order to win
    the war on terror, there needs to be alliance and cooperation because
    these are killers that are capable of hiding in societies. They're
    patient. They're lethal. They pop up and will destroy. And by the way,
    they don't care who they destroy. There are no rules for these people.
    They will kill children just as soon as they'll kill somebody in a
    military uniform.
        Thirdly, the world is safer because there is a--and by the way,
    multinational forum doesn't necessarily mean U.N. It can also mean
    collaborations, like the collaboration that's now taking place with
    North Korea in dealing with Kim Chong-il, who is
    a threat to peace. And now it's not just the United States dealing with
    Kim Chong-il; it's the United States, China, South Korea, Japan, and
    Russia in a collaborative effort. Or the fine work--the initial fine
    work done by the foreign ministers of Great Britain, France, and Germany
    in telling Iran to get rid of its nuclear ambitions. I say ``initial
    fine work'' because the Iranians, in the past, have had clandestine
    operations. And therefore, in order to make sure that the words that
    have been issued to them are true, there must be transparency.
        Fourthly, we dealt Al Qaida. We are tough on Al Qaida. Now, you
    know, there are key figures still looming in caves and remote regions of
    the world, but we're dismantling them. If you were to look at Al Qaida
    as a business organization, middle management is no longer. That's not
    to say that they're not grooming junior executives to take over certain
    roles. But we're tough, and we're on their trail, and we're still
    hunting them down. Make no mistake about it. And as a result of
    dismantling Al Qaida, the world is safer.
        We've also dealt with the tyrants in Afghanistan, which is an
    incredibly dangerous regime, dangerous not only to the free world
    because they provided housing, training, money, safe haven, but also
    they were just tortuous and barbaric to their own people. And in Iraq,
    Saddam Hussein was clearly a threat to peace.
    And we can argue about the definition of ``serious consequence,'' and I
    respect the debate, but no one can justify this man's behavior to his
    people. We've discovered mass graves with over 300,000 people there,
    rape rooms, and torture rooms. He is paying suiciders to go kill
    innocent Israelis. He had a weapons program as discovered--I promise you
    this is going to be a short answer, eventually. I saw you looking at the
    clock; your glance can't escape me. [Laughter]
        This is an important question. It is the question.
        Mr. Kavanagh. Of course, absolutely.
        The President. David Kay discovered a weapons
    program that was in material breach of 1441. In other words, it was in
    violation of precisely what the United Nations had asked him not to do.
    Saddam Hussein, in 1991, it was assumed that
    he--his nuclear weapons program would be active in the out-years, and in
    fact, the inspectors discovered he's got nuclear ambitions, not only
    real and active but his program was a lot farther along than we thought.
    And had he ever developed a nuclear weapon, had he been allowed to have
    a nuclear weapon, he would have been the ultimate source of
    international blackmail.
        And so the removal of Saddam Hussein
    makes the world safer. And as importantly, the removal of Saddam Hussein
    gives the Iraqis a chance to live in freedom, which is the ultimate--
    freedom is the ultimate route to security. I strongly believe that free
    nations are peaceful nations. Free nations are not terrorist havens, do
    not become terrorist havens. Free nations won't

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    create conditions of strife and resentment that breeds anxiety and
    terror.
        And therefore, the world is becoming safer, is safer, and will be
    even more safe when Iraq becomes free. And Iraq will be free, and it'll
    be peaceful. And we need peace and freedom in that part of the world.
        Now, there's an interesting debate going on as to whether or not
    people like the Iraqis will ever adapt the habits of freedom. There's
    kind of an elitism that takes place in our country, in your country, and
    elsewhere, feels, well, ``Certain people can't be free. They can't adapt
    the habits of democracy.'' I strongly disagree. I strongly disagree.
        And so, yes, the world is safer, and the world is more peaceful.

    Future U.S. Activity in Iraq

        Mr. Kavanagh. Okay. That answer will resonate with our readers.
    Nonetheless, there is concern about the events, particularly in the last
    week or so, when things have escalated. I think this causes concern
    everywhere. Are we going to increase military presence there? Are we
    going to pull out? There's a fear that----
        The President. You don't have to worry about us pulling out.
        Mr. Kavanagh. There's a famous T-shirt slogan which shows the
    American flag and the words, ``These colors don't run.'' Do you stand by
    that?
        The President. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Our will is being
    tested. See, the tactics of the terrorists is to kill as many innocent
    people as possible and, therefore, try to shape the will of the Iraqis.
    As progress is made--and we're making interesting progress, and I'll
    cite some examples in a minute that I think are fascinating. But as the
    Iraqis begin to say, ``Wait a minute. Life can be better,'' and their
    instincts kick in about what it means to live in a free society, the
    terrorists want to shake that. They want to scare them. They want the
    police not to become police. And we've got over 118,000 people now,
    Iraqi citizens, in uniform beginning to conduct operations for their own
    security.
        They, of course, want to kill our own soldiers and, therefore, try
    to shake the will of the American people and the President and the
    command structure. They killed those Italians. And they were hoping that
    Berlusconi would say, ``Oh, my goodness,
    this is too big a fight. We'll leave.'' We're not leaving. We're staying
    there to get the job done. Of course we mourn the death of any citizen.
    But I recognize that it is--I still remember the death, what happened to
    us on September the 11th as well. I was there at Ground Zero right after
    the attacks, and I remember this kind of haze and the smells and the
    death and destruction. I'll always remember that, of course. And as I've
    told you, I vowed not to forget the lessons.
        Mr. Kavanagh. That changed everything?
        The President. Absolutely. Look, what changed for me was sitting on
    Air Force One and getting the reports that we were under attack. And I
    made up my mind then, right then, that we didn't need a bunch of legal
    briefs. I didn't need a bunch of--you know, let's kind of hold hands and
    hope to get the right answer. We were at war, and we were going to win
    the war. And I still feel that same exact determination today that I did
    then.
        Mr. Kavanagh. So you'll stay in Iraq even----
        The President. We will do our job.
        Mr. Kavanagh. ----after there's an interim council, a Government
    which is----
        The President. Yes. There's a lot of talk right now about the
    political process, as there should be. And we are interested in the
    Iraqis assuming more responsibility on the political side and on the
    security side. And a political process in which the Iraqis assume more
    responsibility will make the security side come together quicker as well
    in our judgment.
        And therefore, Bremer came
    here, he took instructions back from me to talk to

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    the Governing Council to find out what is feasible when it comes to the
    passing of more power to the Governing Council. That's where we are
    right there.
        On the security side, absolutely we're there. The goal is for Iraq
    to be peaceful and free. I understand the consequences of a free and
    peaceful Iraq in the midst of the Middle East. We can have the debate
    all day long as to whether the Middle East will ever adapt the habits of
    democracy and freedom. I think they will, obviously, and I'm confident
    they will. I like to tell people in this country, freedom is not
    America's gift to the world; freedom is not Great Britain's gift to the
    world; freedom is the Almighty's gift to everybody in the world.

    Freedom for Iraq

        Mr. Kavanagh. And this is what you'll tell the demonstrators? Or
    this is what you would tell the demonstrators if you had 5 minutes with
    them?
        The President. Of course I would, absolutely. I will say, ``You may
    disagree with our tactics. Nobody likes war. War is my last choice.'' If
    the demonstrators are there as anti-war protestors, they may be there
    for other reasons as well--global trade--and I'd be glad to talk to them
    about that as well. But in terms of war, I can understand why people are
    anxious about war. I can understand why citizens in Great Britain,
    protestor or not, wonders about why a President would commit to war,
    because nobody likes war.
        On the other hand, I would tell them, the skeptics and the critics,
    that I have a job to protect the security of the United States of
    America and that Saddam Hussein was a
    security risk, as witnessed by the international community speaking
    loudly on that subject 12 different times. But I would tell those who
    doubt our policy that we share a common goal, which is peace, and that
    free societies are peaceful societies. They may say, ``Well, you can't
    possibly expect a country like Iraq to be free,'' and then we'd have an
    interesting philosophical debate because I believe freedom exists in the
    heart of every single human being. It may take longer for people to
    accept freedom, if they've been tortured and brutalized like Saddam
    Hussein did.
        Secondly, I would tell the skeptics that not only is the world more
    secure as a result of the decisions we made, the Iraqi people now have a
    chance to live in a society which is hopeful and optimistic, a society
    in which you're able to speak your mind, a society in which you don't
    have to pay homage to a brutal tyrant and his
    two brutal sons, which is precisely how they had to live in the past.

    Threats to World Peace

        Mr. Kavanagh. So how do you respond to those people who were polled
    by the Europe Commission and found that America was--alongside Iran,
    North Korea--is the second most powerful threat to world peace?
        The President. You just have to tell them, ``Watch what happens.''
    The world is going to be more peaceful, and the free world will be more
    secure as a result of the decisions we've taken.

    United Kingdom's Contribution in Iraq

        Mr. Kavanagh. Can I ask you about the special relationship, the role
    the British soldiers play in Iraq and are still playing?
        The President. Sure.
        Mr. Kavanagh. Would you like to tell me about you feel about our
    contribution?
        The President. Yes, I'll tell you about your troops. They are well
    trained. They are well motivated, and they're really good at what they
    do. And our soldiers and our generals and our commanders really
    appreciate being side-by-side with the Brits. They trust them, and
    that's important.
        Secondly, in Basra, the Brits have brought an interesting strategy
    in dealing in Basra because you have dealt in Northern Ireland. In other
    words, it was kind of a transfer of experience that has been

    [[Page 1563]]

    incredibly useful and important. I am really proud of our--not only our
    alliance because it's close now, and I intend to keep it that way.
        I've got a great personal relationship with Tony Blair. Let me tell you something about him just real quick,
    because it relates also to the trust of the troops. He's a man who comes
    in here, and he says he's going to do something, and as I said--as they
    say in Texas, you can book him when he says he's going to do something;
    you can take it to the bank. Because every time he has said something,
    he has done it, and I appreciate that a lot. It's not always the way it
    is in politics, whether it be domestic or international politics.
    Sometimes they'll come and look you in the eye and say, ``Oh, don't
    worry, Mr. President, we're with you and behind you,'' and it turns out
    they're way behind you. You can't find them when the heat gets on. But
    that's not the way Tony Blair is, and that's not the way the Brits'
    command structure is, and that's not the way the soldiers in the field
    have been. They've been tough and capable and decent people--that's the
    other thing about militaries. Both our militaries are full of
    compassionate people, because not only are we chasing down people and
    bringing them to justice, as we say, but there are schools being built,
    orphanages being opened, hospitals being supplied, thanks to
    compassionate British troops and American troops as well, and other
    troops. It speaks to the honor of our respective militaries. These are
    honorable people.

    President's Upcoming Meeting With Families of Fallen British Soldiers

        Mr. Kavanagh. You're going to speak to some of the families of those
    who have already died in Iraq and also September the 11th.
        The President. Yes.
        Mr. Kavanagh. You're going to see them, I guess, on Downing Street.
        The President. Well, I'm not sure exactly where, but you bet. I am
    going to see them.
        Mr. Kavanagh. What are you going to say to them?
        The President. Well, I'm going to first of all ask for God's
    blessings, because I understand how bad they hurt. I can't imagine what
    it would be like, if I were a mother or a dad, to have lost a child. I'm
    a proud dad. It's got to shatter a person's heart to lose a loved one,
    and I will do the best I can to provide some comfort. I have done this
    here in America as well. It's part of my duty as the leader of this
    country to comfort those who have sacrificed.
        I'll also explain to them as best as I can that the sacrifices that
    their loved one has made is for a noble cause, and that's peace and
    freedom. I strongly believe that what we're doing today will make it
    easier for this person's grandchild to grow up in a free world and a
    peaceful world.
        I'll tell you an interesting story, kind of dawned on me a while
    ago. I was talking to Prime Minister Koizumi of Japan in Tokyo. We were having dinner, actually.
    And I kind of reflected on what it would be like--during our dinner, I
    reflected on what it would be like if America and the Allies hadn't done
    a good job in post-World War II. Would I be sitting with a Prime
    Minister of Japan, with whom I've got great relations, talking about how
    to deal with Kim Chong-il and North Korea? It's
    an interesting thought.
        Mr. Kavanagh. Very interesting.
        The President. Beyond that is whether or not somebody 50 years from
    now is going to be sitting with a leader from Iraq or any other country
    in that region saying, ``Thank goodness George W. and Tony Blair held the line, because I'm now able to deal with
    terrorist threats or potential terrorist threats with an ally. I'm able
    to help bring more peace to the world.''
        Presidents and Prime Ministers should never worry about their short-
    term history,

    [[Page 1564]]

    how they're viewed in short-term history. There's no such thing as
    short-term history, except for the musings of somebody who's not very
    objective to begin with, because if you set big goals and work on big
    items, the President or the Prime Minister won't be around to see the
    effects of those policies. And therefore, I don't worry about the short-
    term history. I think in terms of long-term history. I know what we're
    doing now is going to have an effect, a positive effect on this world.

    France, Germany, and NATO

        Mr. Kavanagh. Can I just backtrack a little?
        The President. Sure.
        Mr. Kavanagh. You were talking earlier about the contributions
    countries like Britain and Italy have made, and others.
        The President. Spain, Poland, a lot of people.
        Mr. Kavanagh. You didn't mention France and Germany in that. You
    seem very critical of France.
        The President. Look, my attitude is the past is there. It's past,
    and now let's go on. I'll tell you one example of why that attitude is
    important, and that is Germany's contribution in Afghanistan. And it's a
    positive contribution, more than positive; it's incredibly helpful.
    They've got a number of troops there. It's the first deployment of
    German troops, as I understand, outside of their soil since World War
    II. It's a positive--yes, I think that's right. Check the facts. But
    anyway, it's helpful, really helpful.
        Mr. Kavanagh. And NATO?
        The President. Yes, NATO is important.
        Mr. Kavanagh. But France is a semidetached member of NATO----
        The President. Well, it's a historic role----
        Mr. Kavanagh. They won't be a rival----
        The President. I certainly hope not. See, there's no need to rival
    the United States and our friends. Our goals are peace.
        Mr. Kavanagh. But France wants to counter.
        The President. You mean multipolarity? Well, I think we need to work
    against multipolarity, and the reason why I know we need to work against
    multipolarity is a Europe working with American can do a lot together. A
    united Europe working with America can do a lot together. We can promote
    peace. We can fight off terror, which is necessary, and there needs to
    be full cooperation in order to defeat the terrorists. We can work on
    issues like global AIDS.
        I'm real proud of our country's contribution to global AIDS, just to
    give you a sense of my feeling on this. We are a fortunate country.
    We're prosperous--and by the way, we're becoming more prosperous, which
    is good news.

    Global AIDS Initiative

        Mr. Kavanagh. I'd like to ask you about that.
        The President. Okay. But I believe we owe a lot to the world's
    peace, and we owe a lot to those who suffer, because of our fortune,
    because of our wealth. I'm proud of the fact that Congress has supported
    my initiative to provide a large sum of money. And as importantly, I'm
    proud of our NGOs and faith-based organizations that are willing to help
    provide the infrastructure so that we can get help to beat this
    pandemic. We're a prosperous country, and yet in our world an entire
    generation is about to be wiped out. And I feel strongly about America's
    need to be involved and Europe's need to be involved in this issue
    together, just like I feel strongly we need to provide food for the
    hungry, just like I feel strongly that when we see tyranny, that we need
    to work for freedom.
        Every situation, of course, doesn't require military action. I just
    repeat--I want your readers to know, the military is my

    [[Page 1565]]

    last choice, not my first choice. See, I understand the consequences of
    war. I understand the risks of war. I understand firsthand, particularly
    when I go and hug the moms and dads and brothers and sisters and sons
    and daughters of those who died.
        I also see the consequences of not acting, of hoping for the best in
    the face of these tyrannical killers. So therefore, our foreign policy
    will be active. We'll work closely with our friends and allies, and
    we're going to stay on the offensive against the terrorists.

    National Economy/Steel Tariffs

        Mr. Kavanagh. Let me just ask you one quick question on the economy.
        The President. Yes.
        Mr. Kavanagh. It's going great guns. You're revising figures
    upwards. You introduced tax cuts. You promised tax cuts; you introduced
    them. Is this a message to the rest of the world too?
        The President. Well, I think people ought to look at progrowth
    policies and how to stimulate the entrepreneurial spirit. To me, one of
    the unique qualities of our country is the individualism of our country
    and the willingness of people to take risks to better themselves. Most
    new jobs in America are created by small businesses, and that's an
    exciting aspect of our economy, because it not only is good economics to
    have the job-hiring dispersed throughout society, it also is such a
    hopeful part of our economy, when you think about somebody in America
    can start their own business and grow it and then actually own
    something. They become the owner of this piece of property.
        Our tax policy was very effective at stimulating small-business
    growth, because most small businesses pay tax at the individual income
    tax level. When you hear ``small business'' or ``small corporation,''
    you think ``corporate tax.'' But in America most small businesses are
    sole proprietorships or Subchapter S's, so that when we cut all rates,
    not trying to select rate cuts but all rates, it really affected capital
    formation in the small business.
        This economy and this country, more importantly, is tough and
    resilient. We've been through a lot. When I showed up here, we were in
    recession. I guess we were headed into recession. But the first--I show
    up--Dick Cheney and I are here; we get sworn in
    in late January; and the first quarter of '01 is recession or the
    beginnings of a recession. And then the attacks hurt us, and we had
    corporate scandals. But I think the world is beginning to see America
    will deal with corporate scandals in a tough way. It doesn't matter
    whether you're--we will hold people to account. I believe, in criminal
    matters, that there has to be consequences for bad behavior, and clear
    consequences, and that's how you deter bad behavior. And our SEC and our
    prosecutors are moving quickly.
        The war affected people, but we're overcoming that. It's not only
    good tax policy, but we've got to work on making sure Congress doesn't
    overspend, and that's tough. But I'm holding the line. We've done pretty
    good on our budget agreements so far. We need better legal policy. I've
    been pushing tort reform at the national level on class action suits,
    all of which make it easier for people to kind of calculate risk when it
    comes to employing capital, which is the essence of promoting the
    entrepreneurial spirit.
        Trade is a very important element. I'll be dealing--real quickly--
    I'm going to take a good look at the steel issue. The International
    Trade Commission made a ruling. It said our industry was being harmed by
    imports. I felt I had an obligation to take that report seriously, which
    I did. I imposed tariffs to see whether or not--to give the breathing
    room for the industry to restructure. I'm not analyzing the extent to
    which they restructured. Having said that, I am a fierce free trader. I
    believe in free trade. I know free trade is important between America
    and Great Britain, and I

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    will continue to resist any protectionist tendencies here. In order for
    us to be free traders, however, we've got to enforce the rules of free
    trade, and I was doing so through the International Trade Commission's
    report.
        Sorry I cut you off.
        Mr. Kavanagh. Not at all.
        The President. First Lady Bush is standing
    out there. We're getting ready to award the National Humanities Award
    here.
        Mr. Kavanagh. Many thanks.
        The President. See you over there.

    Note: The interview began at 9:31 a.m. on November 14 in the Oval Office
    at the White House. The transcript was made available by the Office of
    the Press Secretary on November 14 but was embargoed for release until 8
    a.m., November 17. In his remarks, the President referred to Prime
    Minister Tony Blair of the United Kingdom; President Jose Maria Aznar of
    Spain; Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi of Italy; Chairman Kim Chong-il
    of North Korea; Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi of Japan; former
    President Saddam Hussein of Iraq; L. Paul Bremer III, Presidential Envoy
    to Iraq; and David Kay, CIA Special Advisor for Strategy Regarding Iraqi
    Weapons of Mass Destruction Programs. A tape was not available for
    verification of the content of this interview.