    [Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: George W. Bush (2003, Book II)]
    [November 14, 2003]
    [Pages 1530-1540]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]

    Interview With British Journalists
    November 14, 2003

    The Oval Office

        The President. I wanted to show you this shrine to democracy here,
    kind of give you a sense of who I am.
        Laura designed that--that would be my wife. I
    wanted people to, when they walk in here, to have a sense of optimism. I
    wanted people to say, ``The person whose office is in here, or who works
    in here, is an optimistic person.'' And I thought she did a fabulous job
    capturing my sense about our future.
        Well, as you can see, it's got sun rays.
        Q. Has it worked? Have people coming in----
        The President. See, that's what you're supposed to tell me.
    [Laughter]
        Q. Can we--[inaudible]--the enemy to you? [Laughter]
        The President. I don't ask everybody that comes in to work. I just
    want you to know why we do what we do with the rug. This looks like
    Texas; it's a Texas star. These are paintings of Texas. This is a guy
    named Onderdonk, a great Texas painter. That's what our ranch looks
    like. That's west Texas, where--far west Texas. Where I was raised, it's
    flatter than that. Laura's mother was raised in
    that country. It's a really special part of the room.
        Q. Is that actually the ranch?
        The President. No, it's not. It looks like it--two other Texas
    paintings. Obviously, I love Texas. It's very important for a President
    to know who he is before you take this job, a lot of pressure here, a
    lot of decisionmaking. If you try to figure out who you are on the job--
    --
        Q. It's too late.
        The President. ----you're not doing a very good job. Exactly. Before
    I get to there--well, Washington, George Washington, of course. It's
    kind of hard to envision Rutherford B. Hayes above the mantel, isn't it?
        Anyway, Lincoln is this country's greatest President, so I put him
    on the wall. I think he was the greatest President, because the job of
    President is to unite the country to achieve big objectives. It's hard
    to achieve big things if you're not united. We're achieving freedom and
    peace, so we'll spend a little time talking about it--Iraq.
        At home, a compassionate America is a big objective. In order to do
    that, a President must call upon people to serve their neighbors in
    need. I understand the limits of government when it comes to compassion.
    The truth of the matter is, the great strength of our country is the
    heart and souls of our citizens, incredibly passionate people here. My
    job is to call them to, as I like to put it, to love their neighbor like
    they would like to be loved themselves, which leads to this painting
    here.
        It's called ``A Charge To Keep.'' It's based upon a Methodist hymn.
    As you know, there was a renegade Englishman

    [[Page 1531]]

    named John Wesley, and we are Methodists--at least, I am Methodist, and
    my wife is a Methodist. And we sang this hymn at my first inaugural
    church service as Governor. And my friend O'Neill, who is not a Methodist--he introduced Laura and me in their backyard in Midland--he said, ``I've
    got a painting based upon that hymn, and would you like to hang it in
    the Governor's office?'' I said, ``I don't think it's going to fit.'' It
    turned out to be perfect.
        The hymn talks about serving something greater than yourself in
    life. Personally, it speaks to my spirituality. But my job as the
    President is not to promote a religion. My job is to capture what I call
    the spirit of America, to call upon people to serve, and that painting
    reminds me of that.
        Q. What painting is it again?
        The President. Pardon me?
        Q. What's it called?
        The President. ``A Charge To Keep I Have.''
        Q. Is that possible----
        The President. I think it is, yes. This, by the way--now we're going
    to get to the--this is the beginning. I hope you're recording all this.
        Q. Can we go again? [Laughter]

    The Resolute Desk/Churchill Bust

        The President. This desk was given to America by Queen Victoria. By
    the way, I would like to talk about two things here in the Oval Office,
    two articles, one the desk and one a bust, that should describe how I
    value the relationship with our close and unique friend, which is why
    I'm so grateful that I've been invited to go. You're about to get the
    preamble to the discussions.
        This desk is called the H.M.S. Resolute Desk. The timber is from the
    H.M.S. Resolute, which was rescued in the Arctic, and Queen Victoria,
    out of gratitude for the relationship, made this desk from the timber.
    It's a beautiful desk. Not every President has used this.
        It has some interesting features. Roosevelt put the door on the desk
    to cover up his infirmities. He didn't want people to know he was in a
    wheelchair. John-John Ken put his head out of the desk, probably the
    most famous Oval Office photo. His dad was looking out at the South Lawn
    there. Reagan put the bottom on the desk so
    his knees wouldn't hit. So it's been an interesting history. I love it.
        Q. What are you going to do to it?
        The President. I don't know. Good question. I'm just going to treat
    it like a treasure, which is what it is.
        Q. Does this mean we're forgiven for burning down the White House?
    [Laughter]
        The President. Well, that's another part of the White House. This
    was built after that tragic occurrence. As a matter of fact, there's a
    painting hanging in there that we love to show people, where Dolly
    Madison cut out the picture of George Washington, rolled it up, and ran
    with it before the White House burned, thanks to a savage attack.
    [Laughter]
        Q. It was all a mistake.
        The President. Of course it was.
        Q. Identification problem.
        The President. Yes, exactly. Weren't sure where they were. This is,
    of course, Churchill. Tony Blair knew that I was
    an admirer of Churchill, and he arranged for this bust to be loaned
    here. I am an admirer. I thought Churchill was a clear thinker. I
    thought he was a--the kind of guy that stood tough when you needed to
    stand tough. He represented values that both countries hold dear, the
    value of freedom, the belief in democracy, human dignity of every
    person. I admired his wit. I wish I could be as witty as he was, because
    he had a fantastic mind and a charming guy.
        And there's some interesting political lessons there. Sometimes
    you're up. Sometimes you're down. But you've got to do

    [[Page 1532]]

    what you think is right. And that's the lesson of Winston Churchill, who
    was a strong leader.
        So anyway, he sits here, along with Lincoln and Ike.
        All right. So welcome to the Oval Office.
        Q. Thank you very much.

    President's Upcoming Visit to the United Kingdom

        The President. The President must understand in this office that the
    person is never bigger than the office. If you think you're bigger than
    the office, you'll fail as President. The Presidency is bigger than the
    person. It will last--stay here a lot longer than any individual. That's
    an important lesson here that Presidents must understand. Come on in.
        Just a couple of comments, then we'll answer questions for a while.
    I am looking forward to the trip. It's going to be a really interesting
    and fun experience for Laura and me. Obviously,
    staying at Buckingham Palace is going to be an historic moment. I never
    dreamt when I was living in Midland, Texas, that I would be staying in
    Buckingham Palace. Buckingham Palace has got a resonance to it here in
    America which is pretty grand and pretty magnificent. I've been looking
    forward to it.
        I'm really looking forward to spending time with my friend--and I
    emphasize ``my friend''--Tony Blair. He's a
    smart, capable, trustworthy friend, and we've got a lot to talk about.
    We'll talk about Iraq. We'll talk about trade. We'll talk about
    commerce. We'll talk about issues that we can work together on to help
    human suffering.
        I'll be doing different events. I'll be giving a speech there that
    I'm working on now, that will confirm my understanding of the importance
    of this relationship. But I'll talk about other ambitions that we can
    work on together to promote freedom and peace and a compassion agenda
    that I think our countries are uniquely suited to work on.
        So I'm looking forward to it. It's going to be an exciting trip for
    us, and I really thank Her Majesty for
    opening the invitation. I've got my tails all set out and ready to go.
    [Laughter] Had to rent them, but--[laughter]--just don't tell anybody.
        Q. It gets a bit noisy in the palace when the morning papers arrive,
    so you'll need to----
        The President. They do? Yes. I guess I'll have to go to bed early
    and wake up early. Anyway, let's go around while we've got time.

    President's Upcoming Meeting With Families of Fallen British Soldiers

        Q. May I just begin by asking what you hope to take away from the
    visit? And in particular, can I ask you what message you will have for
    families of the British servicemen who have been killed in Iraq?
        The President. Sure.
        Q. Because I gather you'll get to meet.
        The President. I am going to meet some. Look, there's two messages.
    One, the prayers of the American people and the prayers of the President
    are with them as they suffer. I believe in prayer. I believe that there
    is a comforting and healing Almighty, and I'll ask that their souls be
    comforted.
        Secondly, that I will tell them that their loved one did not die
    vain. The actions we have taken will make the world more secure and the
    world more peaceful in the long run, that a free Iraq, free of weapons
    of mass destruction, free of tyranny, is not only good for the long-
    suffering Iraqi people, which in itself is important, but is going to be
    good for the long-term for countries which love freedom. Can you imagine
    the historic change, the landmark moment that is taking place now, where
    we've got a free--a country which is emerging to be free and peaceful in
    the midst of a part of the world where violence and tyranny and terror
    have reigned?
        And I view this as an historic moment, and I will share with them,
    just like I share with our own families here, a deep grief,

    [[Page 1533]]

    my sorrow for the sacrifice, but the fact that what is taking place
    today is a noble cause.

    Prime Minister Tony Blair

        Q. Mr. President, to focus it back on Mr. Blair and Britain, here is
    a guy who has lost two Ministers, who has lost a large part of the
    Parliamentary party, and who--it could be said, polls--has lost the
    faith of a large part of the country over Iraq. He's still, as you saw
    the other night in the Lord Mayor's banquet speech, 100 million percent
    there, and this against the great tide of popular opinion. What have you
    got on him? What's the relationship? And what's the----
        The President. Well, that's just Tony----
        Q. And what's the payoff? [Laughter]
        The President. Freedom and peace. Tony Blair is making decisions for
    the right reasons. He is a--in my relationship with him, he is the least
    political person I've dealt with. And I say that out of respect. He
    makes decisions based upon what he thinks is right.
        He's plenty independent. If he thinks--if he thought the policy that
    we have both worked on was wrong, he'd tell me. He believes it's in his
    country's interest that we work for a free and peaceful Iraq. He, as
    much as any world leader, saw the consequences of September the 11th,
    2001. Obviously, there are more--those consequences and that moment has
    directly affected my foreign policy. See, it changed the nature of the
    Presidency. It changed the security arrangements of the United States of
    America. I vowed to the American people I would never forget the lessons
    of September the 11th, 2001, and that is we are no longer protected by
    oceans. We're vulnerable to attack by terrorists.
        Tony Blair understands the devastation that terror can bring to a
    country in a civilized world. He knows the tactics of the terrorists are
    to create fear and chaos. He knows what they want is for the civilized
    world to retreat so that their tyranny and their bloodshed and their
    unbelievable barbaric form of government, like the Taliban, will take
    hold. And he refuses to allow his country to be terrorized, and he
    refuses to allow peoples to become subjugated to that kind of
    ideologies. And I respect him greatly for that.
        And I admire him as a strong leader. He tells you what he thinks,
    and he does what he says he's going to do. And that's about as high a
    compliment as I can pay a fellow leader.

    President's Popularity/Decisionmaking

        Q. Mr. President, you're going to find, I think, quite a large
    number of people on the streets demonstrating during your visit for a
    variety of reasons, which highlights a rather striking contrast
    between--you're still a pretty popular President at home, but you're not
    a very popular President in various states around the world.
        The President. Yes.
        Q. Does that--how do you account for the lack of popularity around
    the world? And does it matter to you?
        The President. Well, first of all, I--it's kind of--all I can tell
    you is I went to the Philippines. There was thousands and thousands and
    thousands of people out there, and they were waving with all five
    fingers. [Laughter]
        No, look, I frankly haven't paid that much attention to what you
    just described. But first, I admire a country which welcomes people to
    express their opinion. I'm proud of Great Britain's tradition of free
    speech. I remember going to Hyde Park and seeing Speaker's Corner--what
    do they call it, Speaker's Corner?
        Q. Yes.
        The President. People up there expressing their opinion. And it's
    kind of--it's a longstanding tradition. People speak their mind.
        Q. Mr. President----
        The President. Let me finish here.
        Q. Sure.

    [[Page 1534]]

        The President. And I fully understand not everybody is going to
    agree with the decisions I've made. I don't expect everybody to agree.
    And I make decisions based upon--in the foreign policy arena, made
    decisions based upon a couple of principles. One, how best to secure
    America? That's my biggest responsibility. See, I was there right after
    September the 11th. I saw the smoke. I saw the devastation. I heard the
    grief. I hugged the firefighters whose--the families of the firefighters
    who rushed in to save. I saw the heroism. And I vowed right then and
    there that I would use everything in my power to prevent America from
    being attacked again.
        But there's a greater ambition as well, because I understand that
    free societies are societies which do not breed terror. And I gave a
    speech the other day, and in that speech I said the are certain folks
    who I think don't believe that freedom can take hold in parts of our
    world. And I reminded them about some of the statements about the post-
    World War II Japan, that there were some skeptics who said that, well,
    Japan couldn't possibly be a free society or a democratic society.
        I thought about that when I was eating dinner with Koizumi, Prime Minister Koizumi--he's a good friend--
    thinking about what would happen if we had not done a good job with the
    peace after World War II. Would America and Japan be able to work
    together, for example, on the North Korean issue, had it not been done
    right?
        My point to you is that free societies and democratic societies are
    transforming societies. And we have a chance to transform by working
    together, transform in a positive way whole societies and whole regions
    of the world.
        And finally--and people don't--I can understand people not liking
    war, if that's what they're there to protest. I don't like war. War is
    the last choice a President should make, not the first. And it was the
    last choice, after endless years of diplomacy took place--resolution
    after resolution after resolution after resolution that was put forth in
    the U.N. condemning the--and warning the world, frankly, of the dangers
    of Saddam Hussein and condemning his programs
    and insisting that he disarm. And finally, in 1141, as you know, by
    unanimous vote, the world said--at least the U.N. Security Council said,
    ``Disarm or there will be serious consequences.''
        And he didn't disarm. He had no intention
    of disarming. And so then the fundamental question came down to a couple
    of things, one, the definition of serious consequence. Serious
    consequence is not another resolution or another debate inside the U.N.
    And I understand people loathe war. So do I. And yet, we are war. That's
    what September the 11th taught us. It's a different kind of war. And I
    intend to, so long as I'm the President, wage that war vigorously to
    protect the American people.
        And there's all kinds of ways to wage it. And the best way to win,
    in the long run, though, is the spread of freedom. And that's what's
    happening. But sure, I can understand people not agreeing with the
    decision I made.
        Q. But it is striking, isn't it, that opinion poll after opinion
    poll----
        The President. I don't know. I don't read them.
        Q. ----huge solidarity after 9/11----
        The President. I just don't pay attention to the polls. If I were
    trying to be President paying attention on the polls, I'd be running
    around in circles. It's a great--that's one of the reasons I've got
    Winston Churchill's bust here is, at least from my reading of the
    history, he pretty much said what he thought, did what he thought was
    right, and led. He was courageous in his leadership.
        And you know the interesting thing about Presidents and Prime
    Ministers is you're never going to be around to judge history, judge the
    true merit of the history, of the decisions you make. Short-term history
    is--

    [[Page 1535]]

    it's hard to call it unobjective. It's very subjective, I guess, is the
    best way to put it. After all, the person who has written the history
    hasn't had a chance to see the full effects of the decisionmaking.
        And in my case, most of the short-term historians probably aren't
    that thrilled with me being President in the first place, which might
    color the short-term history. [Laughter] But my only point is, I think a
    President must not try to write the legacy of every moment. The
    President just does what he thinks is right and try to explain as
    clearly as I can--part of the purpose of my visit to your great country
    is to use the opportunities I've had to speak directly, like I'm doing
    right now, to people about why I made the decisions I made.
        Go ahead, go ahead.

    Iraq

        Q. On Iraq, you mentioned you're having intensive consultations
    these days----
        The President. Constantly.
        Q. Yes.
        The President. With Blair, by the way.
        Q. Indeed.
        The President. Weekly.
        Q. Seeming to point to the need to hand over--or a desire to hand
    over power faster to the Iraqis? Where is this going?
        The President. Yes. Well, we--Jerry Bremer is here in town today. I think he just had a
    press availability. And we discussed all options and just to make sure
    we understand where we are relative to the situation on the ground.
        We want the Iraqis to understand that we believe they're plenty
    capable of running their own country. See, we're of the school of
    thought, this administration--and Tony is the same way, if I could put
    words in his mouth--that believe the Iraqi people are plenty capable of
    running a peaceful country.
        And therefore, the sooner the people--the more the people realize
    that, I think the more comfortable they'll be with their future. And the
    sooner that sovereignty is handed over in a way commensurate with a--
    with a stable country, the better off it is. That's been our position
    all along. So we're constantly reviewing the progress.
        There's been--obviously, it's tough. We lost Italian police today.
    These killers are--they're hardnosed people. They'll kill because they
    want to intimidate. They want us to leave. That's their goal.
        They've got different ambitions. Some would like to see a Taliban-
    type government, that would be the mujahideen-type people. Some want to
    revenge the loss--the defeat in Afghanistan. They would be your Al-
    Qaida-types. And the Ba'athists, of course, want to get back in power.
    They represent roughly 18 percent of the people, and they've had 100
    percent of the power, and they like that. And obviously, in a free
    society, that's not going to be the case, power sharing as opposed to
    not power sharing.
        And so there are elements of the Ba'athists and Saddam holdouts that are desperately trying--and I use the
    word ``desperate'' because they see the progress being made. And there
    is progress being made. And I certainly don't want to underestimate the
    security situation. I know how tough it is. I know how tough it is
    firsthand.
        And yet, on the humanitarian side, in 7 months we've got a new
    currency moving through the system, which is pretty remarkable when you
    think about it. The oil revenues, which belong to the Iraqi people, are
    now up to 2.1 million barrels. Prior to going in, I think if you were to
    review some of the writings and speculation, they would have said,
    ``Well, that's what's going to take place if the oil reserves are
    destroyed. How is the coalition going to handle that?''
        You might remember there was talk about sectarian violence, that all
    we would do is create a vacuum and longstanding bitterness and hatred
    would take hold, and Shi'ites and Sunnis and Kurds would all be after
    each other. That hasn't happened.

    [[Page 1536]]

        Electricity is up to prewar levels, although it has dipped this
    month because of maintenance. My only point to you is that these killers
    are beginning to see a society begin to emerge, a peaceful society,
    which is a major defeat for terror. And you bet we're consulting on a
    regular basis to determine how best to deal with the tactics on the
    ground. The enemy is changing tactics, and we'll change tactics with
    them.
        But I do--I talk to Tony a lot. He's got good
    wisdom on this subject. Our intelligence services are very close. Our
    militaries are talking to each other. You've got this--Government
    officials there amongst the CPA, and our relationship is good there. And
    it's very important for us to continue to discuss these issues closely.
    And then, of course, I stay in touch with Bremer. And--sorry.
        Q. Well----
        The President. Are you trying to dominate? You're doing a fine job.
    [Laughter] No, go ahead.
        Q. No, go----
        The President. We'll make it around. I promise you. I'll wait. Nice
    try. I call down to these characters all the time for hogging the mike,
    as we say. He's one of the worst of them.

    Blair/Bush Relationship

        Q. Regarding the nature of the pressure that Prime Minister Blair is
    under, is that putting pressure on the decisionmaking, your own
    relationship----
        The President. Not as far as I can tell.
        Q. Or pressure for change or change of tactic or anything?
        The President. Never once has he said to me, ever, ``Gosh, I'm
    feeling terrible pressure.'' Our discussions go as you would hope
    leaders of two allies would go: What can we do to help each other? What
    can we do to succeed? I have never heard him complain about the polls or
    wring his hands. I'm telling you, the relationship is a very good
    relationship because I admire him, and I admire somebody who stands
    tough. And I admire somebody who has got a vision which is a vision that
    is peaceful, and somebody who shares that same deep feeling that freedom
    is an incredibly important part of changing the world. Free societies do
    not attack each other. And Tony Blair doesn't hold an elitist view that
    says only certain people should be free or can be free or capable of
    freedom. And I admire that in him.
        And so to answer your question, you say he's--look, it may be hard
    for you to believe, and these guys will tell you, I--and ladies will
    tell you, excuse me, guys and ladies--that my style of leadership is to
    lay out an agenda based upon principle and lead. And I don't pay that
    much attention to what is written about me or polls. And I think they
    will verify that what I've just told you is true. And it's not to say I
    don't respect the press. I do respect the press. But sometimes it's hard
    to be an optimistic leader. A leader must project an optimistic view.
    It's hard to be optimistic if you read a bunch of stuff about yourself,
    if you know what I mean.
        I don't know how much time Tony looks at polls or anything. I'm just
    telling you from my perspective, my relationship, he is the kind of
    person with whom I like to consult, a person I'm proud to call friend,
    because he's willing to make the tough decision and stand by it. And he
    makes a tough decision based upon what he thinks is right.

    Flexibility in Foreign Policy

        Q. Mr. President, we've heard--or heard from the administration
    emanating the phrase, ``No war in '04.''
        The President. Who said that?
        Q. Behind the scenes.
        The President. Oh, yes. Is that you, Lindlaw [Scott Lindlaw,
    Associated Press]? [Laughter]
        Q. Well, there you go. It's now in the lexicon.

    [[Page 1537]]

        The President. We're at war. We are at war, see? I don't mean to
    anticipate your question, but I'm just going to tell you, we're at war
    now. We're at war with terror. But go ahead.
        Q. My point is----
        The President. And Iraq is just one of the--is a front in the war on
    terror.
        Q. That's where I'm going. I'm going to Syria, and I'm going to
    Iran. These are countries which, by the criteria of Iraq, you could
    argue, have the same application.
        The President. Not really, because remember, the--first of all, not
    every situation needs to be resolved through military action, and I
    would cite you North Korea and Iran. Secondly, the case in Iraq was
    unique, is unique, because the world, for over a decade, had spoken. The
    diplomatic route was tried. No one can argue with that. We tried, I
    think it was 12 resolutions, if I'm not mistaken, culminating in 1441
    which said, ``Disarm, or you face serious consequences.'' I remember
    going to the U.N. to give that speech. And basically I was looking
    forward to giving that speech because I wanted the U.N. to understand
    that they are a vital institution, but their vitality depended upon
    their willingness to have some meaning to their words.
        And we're at war. Okay? The war on terror goes on. And the war on
    terror is going to take a while. America is vulnerable to attack. So is
    your country, by the way. And the only way to win this war is to do
    everything you can to protect your homeland but to stay on the
    offensive, which is what we're going to do.
        And having said that, not every situation requires a military
    response. As a matter of fact, I would hope very few situations would
    require a military response. Let me talk about Iran. The Iranians must
    hear from a unified world that it is unacceptable for them to develop a
    nuclear weapon. And I want to thank--I thanked Tony the other day on our videoconference we had, for he and
    his Foreign Minister Straw and the French Foreign
    Minister and the German Foreign
    Minister, delivering a message on behalf of
    all of us that a nuclear weapon is unacceptable. The IAEA, an
    international organization, as you know, based out of the United
    Nations, is now very much involved in this issue. The United States
    position is, is that we appreciate their focus, and we expect there to
    be a transparent regime inside of Iran. They admitted they had--were
    enriching, that they hadn't disclosed their enrichment under the Nuclear
    Non-Proliferation Treaty. They had made that admission, which says that
    we need to be on guard.
        My point to you in regards to your question on war is that there is
    a way to deal with this issue in an international forum, which we are
    now doing. There's bilateral pressure; there's trilateral pressure; and
    there is multilateral pressure, I guess is the best way to put it. And
    that's the best way to deal with it.
        Let me talk about North Korea, if you don't mind, right quick, to
    show you, at least, how I think on foreign policy issues. North Korea is
    a--had a bilateral relation with the United States, and the leader would
    insist that the United States come to the table and provide different
    aid, and he, the leader, would not--``he,'' Kim Chong-il, would not develop a nuclear weapon. And so our country
    agreed to that. It turns out he was developing highly enriched uranium
    suitable for a nuclear weapon. The thought of Kim Chong-il having a
    nuclear weapon is very dangerous and/or the capacity to export a nuclear
    weapon into the hands of terrorists.
        By the way, terrorist networks who are willing to kill with car
    bombs are also willing to kill on a massive scale. The idea of weapons
    of mass destruction in the hands of terrorist organizations is a
    dangerous, dangerous thought for the 21st century. And we've got to deal
    with it.
        So I looked at the history and realized that the bilateral relations
    with Kim Chong-il hadn't worked. There's a real
    politic here, when somebody says they're going to do

    [[Page 1538]]

    something and they don't do it. That should be a warning signal, and it
    was. So I went and worked with the Chinese and convinced the Chinese
    through a variety of means of argument that they need to be involved,
    and they now are involved. They're hosting these talks. So you've got
    the Chinese, and you've got the Americans, and of course, South Korea
    and Japan and now Russia are all involved. So you've got five countries
    saying the same message to Kim Chong-il: We expect you not to develop a
    nuclear weapons program.
        And my point to you is, is that there are ways to rally
    constituencies and nations toward a common objective, which is precisely
    what we're doing. That is exactly what the U.N. tried to do and others
    tried to do, and the U.N., as far as Iraq went. It's just at the end,
    some countries decided that serious consequences meant something other
    than--something different than what I thought serious consequences
    meant, I guess is the best way to put it.

    Steel Tariffs

        Q. Can I ask a question about trade?
        The President. Please, yes. Let me guess. [Laughter]
        Q. You had a ruling on Monday----
        The President. We did.
        Q. ----which was not favorable to the U.S. decision last year. Are
    you going to lift the tax?
        The President. Well, let me kind of review the bidding right quick
    on this issue. The International Trade Commission ruled that imports
    were harming the industry. Therefore, I felt obligated to take a look at
    that ruling and make a decision based upon that ruling, which as you
    know, I did. And we're now in the process of looking at a lot of things.
    One, of course, is whether or not the respite given helped the industry
    to restructure and to the extent at which it did restructure.
        Somebody went off.
        Q. Not me.
        The President. I would hate for this profundity to be lost.
    [Laughter] To answer--a very short answer--I am listening, looking, and
    we'll decide at an appropriate time. I haven't made up my mind yet.

    Iraq and Afghanistan/Democracy in the Middle East

        Q. Just one last question on Iraq and Afghanistan.
        The President. Sure.
        Q. Is it really--it's inconceivable that you could consider pulling
    out----
        The President. It is inconceivable.
        Q. However, bin Laden is at large, and Saddam Hussein. How close are
    you to finding these people?
        The President. No, first of all, I wouldn't--I think that your--let
    me answer your question this way. We will find them. Okay? Yes, we're not
    pulling out until the job is done. Period.
        Q. And that includes finding those two?
        The President. Yes, that's part of it. But even bigger is a free and
    democratic society. That is the mission. And again, I'd repeat--I know
    I'm sounding like a broken record to you. I just want you to get a sense
    for how strongly I feel for the mission we are on.
        I gave a speech the other--I think I might have--or mentioned it to
    you. I gave a speech about democracy in the Middle East. I believe a--
    first of all, I believe that the Middle Eastern countries are plenty
    capable of being democratic countries. Their democracy won't be Western.
    We don't expect them to look like America. We expect the governments to
    be modern, however, and that includes, well, women's rights and
    including women into the future of their societies.
        So the mission in Iraq is a free and peaceful and stable country. It
    will be a--this is a transforming mission. It is a milestone, as I said
    it, a milestone in the history of liberty. And Tony Blair understands that. He looks--and I would hope--what they
    would say this of me: I look beyond the

    [[Page 1539]]

    signs and the moment to be able to see out, out in years, out in
    history.
         It's an exciting time to be leaders of our two countries. It is
    exciting in the sense that, working together, we can transform society
    in a positive way. And I say, ``working together,'' I mean with
    everybody. There's some unbelievable devastation besides terror going on
    in the world. And I look forward to reminding the British people that
    our country proudly is leading the world when it comes to the battle of
    AIDS. I put forth an initiative of $15 billion, $10 billion new money on
    top of $5 billion we're already spending over a 5-year period of time,
    to help get antiretroviral drugs into the hands of the healers and
    helpers that are in these ravished countries. Can you imagine living in
    a world--we are living in a world, you don't need to imagine it, it's
    happening--in a world in which the pandemic of AIDS is wiping out an
    entire generation on a continent? And we must do something about it. And
    it's sad, and yet, we have an opportunity to lead.
        And I look forward to talking to my good friend about how we can
    work together. And it's not only the United States working with Britain;
    it's the United States working with Europe, whole, free, and at peace--
    whole, free, and at peace. Today I was able to present the Medal of
    Freedom, which is the highest civil award that I give, to Lord George
    Robertson. I don't know if you all were in
    there and saw it or not. Were you there?
        Q. On TV.
        The President. Yes, I'm sorry. Well, you know, security risk.
    [Laughter]
        Anyway, it was a--but the reason I bring that up is that during my
    tenure here as President, we worked with George and Tony Blair and other
    countries to expand NATO and the most significant expansion ever, except
    for the initial thrust. And we expanded to the Baltics. And by the way,
    we not only expanded to the Baltics, but at the same--in the same period
    of time, got rid of the ABM Treaty, which I felt codified hatred and
    distrust.
        And yet, relations are good. And we're moving forward. NATO is an
    incredibly important institution, and NATO is an instrument for freedom.
        Yes, one last.
        Q. One last question. Can I ask a question about European defense?
        The President. Yes. Anyway, what I was going to say is, is that the
    relations with Europe are vital and important. We've got good relations.
    Obviously, there was some disgruntlement about the decision made on
    Iraq, but I would remind you that Germany has troops in Afghanistan
    supporting that mission there, for which we're very grateful. And
    they're doing a darn good job.
        Yes, last question. Yes, okay, last two questions, then I've got to
    go. I'm heading toward television. I'm trying to beam my way into Great
    Britain.
        Q. David Frost will wait. [Laughter]
        The President. That's easy for you to say. He gets to ask the questions, not you. Go ahead.
    [Laughter]

    European Defense Force

        Q. There was a fuss from American officials after Tony Blair met
    with Jacques Chirac and Gerhard Schroeder in Berlin and appeared to take
    forward the European initiative on defense. I wanted to ask you what
    your administration was worried about--whether you could trust Tony
    Blair to keep the thing--Atlantic alliance----
        The President. Let me make sure you understand our position. What we
    believe, that Europe needs to take more of a defense posture and should
    act independently of NATO if NATO chooses not to take on the mission. We
    also believe that the European Defense Force--we agree with Tony
    Blair that it should not undermine the vitality
    of the NATO mission. And I trust Tony Blair to make the right decision
    there.
        I don't know what chirping you're hearing about it, but at least in
    the President's

    [[Page 1540]]

    chair, I'm confident that when he says--this is
    the man, remember, he has told me things and has stuck to his word. And
    therefore, I say with confidence that when he says to me that NATO is a
    vital relationship and the European Defense Force will not undermine
    NATO's capacities and/or ability to move when it needs to move, I
    believe him.
        Last question.

    President's Upcoming Visit to the United Kingdom

        Q. Yes, if I may, I gather your program includes a visit to the
    northeast of England----
        The President. It does.
        Q. ----which is Jordyland. And I was wondering how your Jordy was,
    and how you might all understand each other?
        The President. My Jordy is probably just about as bad as my English.
    [Laughter] And I hope they understand Texan. You know what I'm saying?
        Q. Yes, exactly.
        The President. We may be talking above each other. I can't wait to
    go to his constituency. It's going to be--it will be good to get out
    into the countryside. I like--it's hard for a President to get out to
    the countryside. I travel in somewhat of a bubble.
        Q. You'll need your phrase book.
        The President. What?
        Q. You'll need your phrase book while you're out there.
        The President. Yes. They'll need theirs too, I'm afraid. [Laughter]
    But I'm looking forward to it. This is going to be an historic trip, and
    it's going to be one that will be in my memory for a long time. I'm
    really looking forward to it.
        I appreciate you all giving me a chance to visit with you. Thanks
    for coming by.

    Note: The interview was taped at 2:08 p.m. on November 12 in the Oval
    Office at the White House. The transcript was made available by the
    Office of the Press Secretary on November 12 but was embargoed for
    release until noon, November 14. In his remarks, the President referred
    to Joseph I. O'Neill III, managing partner, O'Neill Properties, Ltd.;
    Queen Elizabeth II and Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth
    Affairs Jack Straw of the United Kingdom; Prime Minister Junichiro
    Koizumi of Japan; former President Saddam Hussein of Iraq; L. Paul
    Bremer III, Presidential Envoy to Iraq; Minister of Foreign Affairs
    Dominique de Villepin of France; Minister of Foreign Affairs Joschka
    Fischer of Germany; Chairman Kim Chong-il of North Korea; and Secretary
    General Lord Robertson of NATO. Journalists referred to Lord Mayor
    Robert Finch of London, United Kingdom; Usama bin Laden, leader of the
    Al Qaida terrorist organization; television journalist Sir David Frost
    of the BBC; President Jacques Chirac of France; and Chancellor Gerhard
    Schroeder of Germany. Participants in the interview were: Andrew Gowers,
    Financial Times; Martin Newland, Daily Telegraph; and Paul Potts, Press
    Association. A tape was not available for verification of the content of
    this interview.