[Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: George W. Bush (2003, Book I)]
[April 24, 2003]
[Pages 372-385]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]


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Interview With Tom Brokaw of NBC News
April 24, 2003

Preemptive Strike Against Saddam Hussein

    Mr. Brokaw. Mr. President, there's no tougher decision any President 
makes than to commit the Nation to war. Let's talk about that first 
night, when you surprised us all by launching the preemptive strike 
against the residence of Saddam Hussein.
    The President. Well, they started in the Situation Room, and we had 
Tommy Franks on the screen with a 
commander--I think out of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait City and out of--and a 
CENTCOM commander out of Tampa Bay, along with their British and 
Australian counterparts.
    And then we had the national security team aligned on the table 
there, and I went around to each of the commanders and said, ``Are you 
happy with the strategy? Do you have what it takes to win the war?'' 
They all answered affirmatively.
    I then gave the instructions to Secretary of Defense 
Rumsfeld that Operation Iraqi Freedom 
would commence at a time of Tommy Franks' 
choosing, told Tommy, you know, for the sake of peace and security and 
the freedom of the Iraqi people that he's got the orders to proceed. I 
asked God's blessing on him and the troops. He saluted. I saluted back 
and left the room.
    It was a--it was an emotional moment for me because I had obviously 
made up my mind that if we needed to, we would use troops to get rid of 
weapons of mass destruction to free the Iraqi people. But the actual 
moment of making that decision was a heavy moment. I then went outside 
and walked around the grounds, just to get a little air and collect my 
thoughts.
    And I thought I was pretty well through with the day until 3:40 that 
afternoon, when I got a call from Secretary Rumsfeld that said, ``Mr. President, the plans have changed.'' He 
said, ``I would like to change the plans. I need your permission to 
change the plans. Can I come over?'' He didn't say the plans had 
changed, but I knew what he'd told me on the phone, it would mean the 
plans would have changed. And that is, we had a shot at Saddam 
Hussein, they thought.
    So I assembled the national security team of the Vice President, 
Colin Powell, Rumsfeld, Myers, CIA Tenet, Condi Rice, Andy 
Card,  Jr. and some other CIA agents there--
some guys I hadn't seen before came in the Oval. And the reason why they 
were there is they had a source on the ground that was convinced that 
not only would Saddam Hussein be in the 
complex, but Uday and Qusay, his two sons, would be there as well. And they 
explained why this was the case. And basically they were asking 
permission from me to launch an airstrike.
    I was hesitant at first, to be frank with you, because I was worried 
that the first pictures coming out of Iraq would be a wounded grandchild 
of Saddam Hussein--but Saddam Hussein, who 
was not there at the time we started making the decision, would never 
show up--that the first images of the American attack would be death to 
young children.
    And this is an interesting moment, because as time went on during 
the day, that evening, the intelligence got richer and richer. In other 
words, the guy on the ground was calling in to the CENTCOM headquarters, 
who was immediately calling in to the White House--more and more 
information. For example, he discovered that there was a bunker 100 feet 
away from one of the houses, a bunker that had so much concrete and was 
likely to house Saddam when he arrived and 
his kids, his boys. 
    And as the intelligence got richer, I got more confidence with the 
notion that Saddam would, in fact, be there. 
And at 7:15 that evening, I gave the order for

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Tommy to proceed with an attack on the 
farms, but changed--they had an ordnance package of 30 cruise missiles. 
But because of the bunker, they had to change the timing of the attack 
so that the stealth bomber went in first, unloaded his ordnance, and 
then the TLAMs or the cruise missiles would follow in behind, which 
means they had to reprogram all these missiles. And they didn't have 
much time to do it because the flight time of the missiles from their 
particular launch sites was about 2 hours.
    This other thing that bothered me during the decisionmaking was that 
the stealth would go in unescorted. There would have been no air 
suppression on enemy defenses prior to him going in, in order to keep 
the element of surprise alive. So the day changed, and it was a dramatic 
several hours because we really changed the battle plan.
    Mr. Brokaw. Did you watch that on television, when the bombs began 
to land?
    The President. Yes, I did. I did. Actually, they began to hit, and 
then I went in and shortly thereafter addressed the Nation--so I was 
getting makeup and talking about the--you know, figuring out the words 
in the speech. I did. And it was about 9:30 p.m., as I recall, and then 
I spoke to the country about 10:15 p.m.
    But what was interesting, Tom--I don't think many people know this--
is that the game plan was to move Special Ops forces early, at noon that 
day. And we would have explained to the country, as kind of creating the 
conditions for the battlefield, so that when our troops moved 
significantly, their conditions would be ripe for success.
    At Friday, at noon, I was going to address the Nation about the air 
campaign, and the ground campaign would follow shortly thereafter. Turns 
out that because we conducted the air raid, I had to speak that night to 
the country. And then Tommy said he was 
going to move the ground force movement up early to secure oilfields and 
to move as quickly as possible into Iraq, which really says that he had 
the ability and the authority and the flexibility necessary to change a 
war plan to meet the needs on the ground.
    Mr. Brokaw. That human intelligence that we had on the ground, did 
you hear back from him, I presume?
    The President. We did.
    Mr. Brokaw. And did he----
    The President. He felt like we got 
Saddam. 
    Mr. Brokaw. He did?
    The President. He felt like that, yes. 
And we're trying, of course, to verify. And before there's any 
declaration, of course, there will be a lot of evidence.
    Mr. Brokaw. Did you see that famous television video of Saddam the 
next day, in the glasses, reading awkwardly from the notepad and so on?
    The President. Well, yes. I was amused by that, almost as amused by 
that as I was his PR Said Kazim man--it 
was one of the classics--probably helping NBC Saturday Night Live out 
mightily, but through his--it was just unbelievable what he was saying.
    But you know, the people that wonder if Saddam Hussein is dead or not, there's some evidence that says that 
he--suggests he might be. We would never make that declaration until we 
were more certain. But the person that helped direct the attacks 
believes that Saddam, at the very minimum, was severely wounded.
    Mr. Brokaw. That night?
    The President. That night, yes. And it explains--again, there will 
be a lot of speculation until the truth is known, but it explains why, 
for example, one reason why dams weren't blown up or oilfields weren't 
destroyed, even though we found them to be wired with--potentially to be 
blown up.

Shock and Awe/Iraqi Resistance

    Mr. Brokaw. Now, the air campaign is underway, and troops are moving 
across the border----
    The President. That would be a day and a half later.

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    Mr. Brokaw. A day and a half later.
    The President. But troops were moving across the border earlier.
    Mr. Brokaw. ``Shock and awe'' was the phrase that was heard so much 
before it all began. It didn't have exactly the effect I think that a 
lot of people expected, because resistance down south was--from the 
militia, at least--a little tougher than a lot of people anticipated.
    The President. Yes, I think it's true. I think that's an accurate 
look back. ``Shock and awe'' said to many people that all we've got to 
do is unleash some might and people will crumble. It turns out the 
fighters were a lot fiercer than we thought. Because, for example, we 
didn't come north from Turkey, Saddam Hussein 
was able to move a lot of special Republican Guard units and fighters 
from north to south. So the resistance for our troops moving south and 
north was significant resistance. On the other hand, our troops handled 
it--we handled that resistance quite well.

President's National Security Team

    Mr. Brokaw. Did that give you a pause for a while?
    The President. Well, first of all, I had confidence in the plan, 
because I've got confidence in my national security team. Remember, my 
advisers are people such as Dick Cheney, who had 
been through the war before as the Secretary of Defense; Colin 
Powell, who's not only an Army general but 
also had been through a war before; Don Rumsfeld, who's a very successful man in the private sector but also 
has got great judgment when it comes to the military; Tommy Franks--I 
really trust Tommy; we speak the same 
language; after all, Tommy went to Midland Lee High School, graduated in 
1963, one year ahead of   and--I mean, I get good, solid advice from people 
who analyzed this war plan, analyzed the strategy, looked at it in 
depth, had looked at it for quite a bit of time and convinced me that it 
would lead to victory.
    So I've never doubted the plan. Obviously, I was concerned when we 
lost life, or concerned that day when some of our prisoners, the people 
were captured. But I had confidence in the plan because I had confidence 
in the team.

U.S. Prisoners of War

    Mr. Brokaw. Let me ask you about that day that the prisoners were 
captured. Everything played out on television. There's been probably no 
more televised event in the history of mankind. Suddenly you look on the 
screen, and from Iraqi television there are five American prisoners of 
war, including a woman who was a cook, Shoshana Johnson.
    The President. Well, I believe that was a Sunday. And it was a tough 
day. It was a tough day for America. It was a tough day for the 
Commander in Chief, who committed these young soldiers into battle in 
the first place, which made their release even more joyous. But war is--
it's tough.
    Mr. Brokaw. Did you make some calls?
    The President. No, I didn't. I've written a lot of letters, but I 
didn't call any parents then. I prayed for them, but I didn't call.
    Mr. Brokaw. Did you talk to Laura about it?
    The President. I did. I talked to Laura a lot during this period of 
time. She's been a steady source of strength and inspiration and love. 
And you know, there's--any time there's war and a lot of action, a lot 
of movement of troops and equipment, people are--there's going to be 
death. And it's the hardest aspect of this job, frankly, is to know that 
those lives were lost because of orders I gave.
    On the other hand, I firmly believe, and history will prove, that 
decisions that I made and the actions that our country took will make 
the world more peaceful, will help secure the United States, and as 
importantly, give the Iraqi people freedom, let them be free, free from 
the clutches of one of the most barbaric regimes in the history of 
mankind.

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Rescue of Jessica Lynch 

    Mr. Brokaw. The flip side of all that was the rescue of Jessica 
Lynch.
    The President. It was.
    Mr. Brokaw. Did you get advance notice that that operation was going 
down?
    The President. I did. I did. Secretary Rumsfeld told me that--not to get my hopes up, but there was going 
to be a very sensitive operation into a hospital where he thought that 
there would be an American POW. And that's all he said. He was very 
circumspect, as he should be, to a lot of people, because he didn't want 
any information to get out that might have jeopardized the operation. 
But he gave me a heads-up. And then when we heard that she had been 
rescued, it was a joyous moment.

Iraqi Weapons of Mass Destruction

    Mr. Brokaw. Let me ask you about some of the larger policy 
questions. Before we went to war against Iraq, one of the reasons that 
you justified this war was that he posed a real threat to the United 
States. If he couldn't defend his own country--and we have not yet been 
able to find the weapons of mass destruction, which were not even 
launched in defense of Iraq--was that threat overstated?
    The President. No, not at all. As a matter of fact, I think time and 
investigation will prove a couple of points: One, that he did have 
terrorist connections; and secondly, that he had a weapons of mass 
destruction program. We know he had a weapons of mass destruction 
program. We now know he's not going to use them. So we've accomplished 
one objective, and that is that Saddam Hussein will not hurt the United States or friends or our 
allies with weapons of mass destruction.
    Secondly, we are learning more as we interrogate or have discussions 
with Iraqi scientists and people within the Iraqi structure, that 
perhaps he destroyed some, perhaps he dispersed some. We also know there 
are hundreds and hundreds of sites available for hiding the weapons, 
which he did effectively for 10 years from the--over 10 years from the 
United Nations, and that we've only looked at about 90 of those sites so 
far--I mean, literally hundreds of sites.
    And so we will find them. It's going to take time to find them. And 
the best way to find them is to continue to collect information from the 
humans, the Iraqis who were involved with hiding them.
    Mr. Brokaw. As you know, there's still a lot of skepticism around 
the world about American motives in Iraq.
    The President. Right.
    Mr. Brokaw. Why not fold in some of the U.N. inspectors to this 
effort, not turn it over to them but make them a part of it? Would that 
help with the credibility, do you think?
    The President. I think there's going to be skepticism until people 
find out there was, in fact, a weapons of mass destruction program. One 
thing there can't be skepticism about is the fact that this guy was torturous and brutal on the Iraqi people. I mean, 
he brutalized them; he tortured them; he destroyed them; he cut out 
their tongues when they dissented. And now the people are beginning to 
see what freedom means within Iraq. Look at the Shi'a marches or the 
Shi'a pilgrimages that are taking place.
    The world will see that the United States is interested in peace, is 
interested in security, and interested in freedom.
    Mr. Brokaw. But it is important to find the weapons of mass 
destruction, or the evidence that he had a massive program underway, 
isn't it?
    The President. Yes. I think we will. I'm pretty confident we will.

Postwar Iraq/New Iraqi Regime

    Mr. Brokaw. Your old family friend Brent Scowcroft, who had some 
differences with the policies here, says one of the things that he's 
worried about is that there's no tradition of democracy there, that 
people will just seize power wherever they can.

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It seems to a lot of people that that is playing out in the south, 
especially where the Shi'a are saying, ``Look, we're going to run things 
here. We'd like to have an Islamic government.'' Isn't that a serious 
concern?
    The President. Well, first of all, we just started. The country 
isn't secure yet. I mean, the first things that we're worried about is 
making sure that the militia units of the old Fedayeen Saddam aren't out 
killing people. So our troops are working with coalition forces to make 
the country more secure.
    Secondly, we're worried about making sure there are--you know, 
there's the presence of a police force in these different cities to 
maintain order. We are just beginning to move our teams in place to help 
the Iraqi bureaucracies get up and running.
    I was pleased to see that the Doctors Without Borders organization 
said that they went into Iraq and found no grave humanitarian crisis. In 
other words, the food is getting to the people; medicines are getting to 
the people. They did say there is a shortage of personnel, 
professionally--not a shortage of medicine but a shortage of 
professionals necessary to deliver the aid, and we'll help the Iraqi 
people address that problem.
    My point to you is that we have an orderly process to bring 
stability and food and health to the Iraqi people so life can begin to 
return to normal. And then I'm confident that a government will emerge. 
I dismiss the critics who say that democracy can't flourish in Iraq. It 
may not look like America. You know, Thomas Jefferson may not emerge. 
But nevertheless, I do believe there can be a representative government 
and all factions can be represented.
    Mr. Brokaw. But if it becomes an Islamic government with a 60 
percent Shiite majority, it could very well become that--would that be 
acceptable to you?
    The President. What I would like to see is a government where church 
and state are separated. And I believe there's enough people within Iraq 
that would like that kind of--there may be a nationalist government, a 
government that really honors the Iraqi history and the Iraqi traditions 
and Iraq, itself. But it must be a government that is going to, you 
know, represents all the people, and I believe that can happen.

Looting by Iraqi Citizens

    Mr. Brokaw. Were you surprised by the degree of looting that 
occurred almost instantly?
    The President. No, I wasn't surprised at all.
    Mr. Brokaw. You were not? Why?
    The President. I mean, these were people that hated the regime under 
which they lived.
    Mr. Brokaw. But they went after hospitals and museums and----
    The President. I don't like that part. And that was the--you know, 
the hospitals and museum were the absolute worst part. The good news is, 
is that the hospitals are now up and running. They've got enough medical 
supplies to take care of the people that need help. That museum was a 
terrible incident. I couldn't agree more with people who say we're sorry 
that happened. We are, by the way, helping find treasure, restore 
treasure, and we'll provide all the expertise and help they need to get 
that museum up and running again.
    But I wasn't surprised. It was vengeance, because it's like 
uncorking a bottle of frustration. These are people whose relatives were 
beaten, tortured, shocked, killed because they spoke out, because they 
disagreed with Saddam Hussein. And history is 
going to show how brutal this man and his sons and his regime really, 
really was. And therefore, it did not surprise me when people took 
vengeance on police stations or took, you know, went out into Government 
buildings and destroyed them.
    I'm also pleased by the fact that that level of--those riots or 
whatever you want to call them, released some steam, and now

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life is returning to normal. Things have settled down inside the 
country.
    Mr. Brokaw. There's still a lot of nationalism, though. I mean, it's 
a very strong strain there, and in fact, some people are taking control 
of their neighborhoods or whole sectors of Baghdad----
    The President. Yes, like the guy, 
Mohsen the self-proclaimed mayor.
    Mr. Brokaw. Right.
    The President. This is all--a reasonable government will evolve. We 
just started. It wasn't but 2 weeks ago yesterday that the statue fell 
down. There have been 20-plus years of tyranny. And it's hard to believe 
that in 20 days democracy will emerge. But the point we're making is, is 
that the foundation for democracy is now being laid. And by the way, 
there's nothing wrong with nationalism within Iraq. People say the 
United States should leave, and we want to leave, as soon as we've 
accomplished our mission.

Timing of U.S. Withdrawal

    Mr. Brokaw. How long will that take?
    The President. Somebody asked me the other day, how long is it going 
to take to get rid of Saddam Hussein's 
regime? My answer is, as long as necessary.
    Mr. Brokaw. But it may take as long as 2 years----
    The President. It could. It could, or less. Who knows? But the point 
I'm making is, is that we are there to promote security, to make sure 
life returns back to normal, and to help the Iraqi people establish a 
government, because we believe that democracy can work within Iraq. And 
nationalism, by the way, you know, means it's more likely that a 
government will evolve that is focused on Iraq, its traditions, and its 
history, as opposed to focusing on a particular religion.

Iran/Syria

    Mr. Brokaw. Is Iran trying to take root in southern Iraq, in your 
judgment?
    The President. Well, you know, you hear a lot of reports about the 
vacuums being filled by Iranian agents. We certainly hope that Iraq--
Iran will allow Iraq to develop into a stable and peaceful society. We 
have sent the word to the Iranians that that's what we expect. I talk to 
Tony Blair and Jose Maria Aznar 
Maria on a regular basis--talked to them yesterday--and this 
subject came up. And both of them have got contacts with the Iranian 
Government, and they will send the same message, similar to what we did 
to Syria, that we expect there to be cooperation and----
    Mr. Brokaw. And if there is not, is Iran next?
    The President. No, we just expect them to cooperate, and we will 
work with the world to encourage them to cooperate. We have no military 
plans. Just like I said about Syria. I mean, listen, the world, a lot of 
the--frankly, the left wing critics of our policy have said, ``You know, 
these people are so militaristic, they're getting ready to invade 
Syria.'' That was the line of the day. We made it clear to the Syrians 
we expect them to cooperate.
    Mr. Brokaw. And are they responding?
    The President. Yes, I think they are. They're doing a better job. 
The borders look like they're tighter. As we find people that have 
escaped into Syria, we're giving the Syrian Government the names of the 
people, and they appear to want to be helpful.

United Nations

    Mr. Brokaw. Let me ask you about the future of some other 
relationships that we have, with the United Nations, for example. There 
are two people who admire you very much and are powerful pundits in 
Washington. George Will and Bill Kristol have said of the U.N., George 
Will saying, ``If it's not the end as we know it, it should be.'' And 
Bill Kristol has said, ``The U.N. I used to think was just useless, now 
I think is harmful.''

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    The President. Well, I would hope that the U.N. would be useful. I 
would hope that the U.N. would be an effective body at helping deal with 
the new threats of the 21st century, dealing with terror and terrorist 
states and proliferation of weapons.
    And I can understand why some are frustrated with the United 
Nations, because the United Nations looked like it was not willing to 
join in the cause of freedom. And it was frustrating to Americans that 
it looked like the United Nations might hold up U.S. foreign policy that 
was being conducted in the name of peace and security.
    On the other hand, I was the person that went to the United Nations 
in the first place. It was my decision to go give the speech on 
September 12, 2002, that called the United Nations to account. The 
United Nations will have a useful role in the reconstruction of Iraq, 
for example, because a lot of nations won't be able give reconstruction 
money without a U.N. conduit.
    And there is a role in this case for the United Nations. I hope as 
threats emerge, the United Nations will be more responsive to those 
threats.

Visit by Australian Prime Minister John Howard 

    Mr. Brokaw. Are you going to invite French President Chirac to the 
ranch in Crawford?
    The President. Well, my first guest will be John Howard--well, first 
guest from this moment forward will be John Howard, and he's coming----
    Mr. Brokaw. The Prime Minister of Australia.
    The President. The Prime Minister of Australia, he's a great friend 
and a wonderful ally, will be coming a week from Friday.

French President Jacques Chirac/NATO 

    Mr. Brokaw. Well, what about President Chirac, though?
    The President. You really--you're really trying to get me to 
comment. I doubt he'll be coming to the ranch any time soon. On the 
other hand, you know, there are some strains in the relationship, 
obviously, because of--it appeared to some in our administration and our 
country that the French position was anti-American. And my concern about 
the French position is it would weaken--the position they took could 
weaken the NATO Alliance. NATO is a very important alliance. It's 
something that we've not only worked to modernize--I've worked to expand 
NATO, and it's very important that Europe not become fractured to the 
point where the United States won't have relations with a united Europe 
whole, free, and at peace.
    And hopefully, the past tensions will subside, and the French won't 
be using their position within Europe to create alliances against the 
United States or Britain or Spain or any of the new countries that are 
the new democracies in Europe.

Bush Doctrine

    Mr. Brokaw. We've talked about this before. Now that the war in Iraq 
is effectively over, have you thought about a Bush doctrine that is a 
comprehensive structure of some kind, on a global basis, for dealing 
with weapons of mass destruction and the need, even, of preemptive 
strikes against rogue nations?
    The President. Well, the Bush doctrine is actually being defined by 
action, as opposed to by words. Although, I think if you compile a lot 
of the speeches I've given, you could come up with the Bush doctrine.
    The way I view the post-Saddam Iraq 
opportunities are these: one, that we can deal more effectively with 
weapons of mass destruction, that we made it clear that people who 
harbor weapons of mass destruction will be dealt with. Hopefully, most 
of it can be done diplomatically. And you'll see us--see me as well as 
members of my administration begin to push for new international 
protocols that will make international organizations more effective at

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stopping the spread of weapons of mass destruction.
    I also believe that reform in the Middle East as well as Middle East 
peace is an initiative that we will continue to--that I will push and 
push, particularly in the Middle East peace process. I will work hard to 
achieve the two-state solution. And we have a good opportunity to do so.
    There are other parts of the Bush doctrine, if you want to call it 
that, that are equally important. One, the AIDS initiative in Africa is 
an incredibly important initiative, and I intend to call upon Europe, 
particularly the wealthier nations in Europe, to join us in providing 
the medicines, the anti-retroviral drugs, and the strategies necessary 
to start saving lives, more lives on the continent of Africa.
    There's a lot of things where we can work together, is my point, to 
overcome any differences that might have existed on the Iraq policy.

Arab-U.S. Relations

    Mr. Brokaw. Before the war began, we were told by any number of 
people in your administration that a lot of the leaders of the Middle 
East were privately saying, ``We hope that you get rid of Saddam 
Hussein.'' But once the war was over, they 
did not go public with praise for the United States--Saudi Arabia, 
Egypt, Jordan, our best friends in that region--while on the Arab 
street, there continued to be very strong criticism to what we were 
doing.
    The President. Yes, I can understand that. I mean, these guys--first 
of all, the thing that was important with those countries is they 
provided us help when we asked for help. We needed basing help in 
certain countries, and they provided it. That was one of the reasons why 
we were successful against Saddam Hussein. We asked, and they delivered.
    Part of the frustrations that exist in the Middle East--and I 
recognize this--is the fact that there is no movement toward peace with 
the Palestinians. Part of the frustration in the Middle East is also the 
fact that some of these governments need to enact reforms, and that's 
why both reform and working on the Middle Eastern peace will be 
priorities of mine.

Middle East Peace Process

    Mr. Brokaw. Is the Middle East peace process going to accelerate 
greatly now that Arafat has accepted a Prime Minister? And has Arafat 
been removed effectively from the equation?
    The President. I think it will accelerate and, hopefully, greatly. 
I'm not so sure what that exactly means, but it will certainly 
accelerate from where we are today.
    The selection of Abu Mazen ``Abu Mazen'' 
as the Prime Minister is very positive, primarily because Abu Mazen has 
stated publicly that he is against terror and will use whatever powers 
he has to fight off the terrorist activities that have really prevented 
peace from moving forward.
    In my June 24th speech I laid out----
    Mr. Brokaw. Will you have him to the White House without Arafat, 
example?
    The President. I will one of these days, yes.
    Mr. Brokaw. Without Arafat?
    The President. Yes, absolutely. Listen, I always felt--first of all, 
I looked at the history of Mr. Arafat. Now, I 
saw what he did to President Clinton. 
There was no need to spend capital, unless you had an interlocutor who 
could deliver the Palestinian people toward peace. And I believe Abu 
Mazen ``Abu Mazen'' is a man dedicated to 
peace, and I look forward to working with him for the two-state 
solution. My view is, is that the only way for there to be peace and for 
the survival of Israel and for the hope of the Palestinian people is for 
two states living side by side in peace. And I've laid out a plan to 
achieve that, a plan that calls upon actions by the Israelis, by the 
Palestinians, as well as by the Arab nations surrounding that troubled 
part of the world.

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Military Speed and Flexibility/Embedded Journalists

    Mr. Brokaw. There used to be an American doctrine about when we go 
to war it's overwhelming force. Now it's speed and flexibility, based on 
Iraq, and instant communication, not only behind the scenes, but 
everybody gets to look in on the battlefield.
    The President. Well, the instant communications part was one of the 
reasons why I was comfortable in giving Tommy Franks and the commanders in the field the go-ahead to take the 
shot at Saddam Hussein on the first day. 
Because there in the Oval Office, we were getting near-instant feedback 
from eyes on the ground, what he was seeing, what he felt the conditions 
were like. It was an amazing moment to think that a person risking his 
life, viewing the farms, watching the entries, seeing, observing what 
was taking place inside one of Saddam's most guarded facilities, was 
able to pick up a device, call CENTCOM, and CENTCOM would call us in 
near real-time.
    The ability to communicate has changed the nature of warfare. It 
allows for more interoperability, more ability for the Navy and the Air 
Force and the Special Ops and the Army and the Marines to work side by 
side in a coordinated basis, which makes it easier to fight a war with 
flexibility and speed and precision. So the doctrine really has changed.
    As well, it's an amazing concept when you think about real-time TV 
focusing on war. And by the way, I express--Laura 
and I express our deepest sympathies to David  wife and his family. I 
knew him well during the campaign. He was a great journalist and really 
a good fellow, loved his family a lot. But you know, to think that David 
was there----
    Mr. Brokaw. Rocketing across the desert.
    The President. ----rocketing across the desert. It's an amazing 
feeling.
    Mr. Brokaw. I don't want you to give up sources and methods, but the 
guy who called in the first time--still with us?
    The President. Yes, he is. He is with us. Thank God. A brave soul.
    Mr. Brokaw. That's great.

[At this point, the first part of the interview concluded. The interview 
resumed at 2:45 p.m. in Lima, OH, after the President and Mr. Brokaw 
left Air Force One.]

Economic Stimulus Plan

    Mr. Brokaw. Listen, now that the war in Iraq is over, the whole 
country is turning its attention back to the economy, and there's--on 
the Hill, in your own party, there's a lot of skepticism about whether 
or not the tax cuts can get the job done. You started at $750 billion. 
You've now been talking about $550 billion. The Senate is talking about 
$350 billion. Would you take $350 billion?
    The President. Well, I think it ought to be--actually, I think it 
ought to be more robust, and the reason why is because a lot of 
economists have told me that the tax cut needs to be sizable enough to 
affect demand--job creation. And that's why I'm pushing what I'm 
pushing, and I'm not going to quit pushing until they end up voting. I 
believe it's the right thing.
    The American people need to know that last January I put out a job 
plan, and the Congress has been debating it, talking about it. And it 
was important in January. It's important now, and I expect them to get a 
good jobs bill out.
    Mr. Brokaw. The Congressional Budget Office, however, says, you 
know, they've looked at it with three or four different models, and it's 
just going to be too small in terms of the impact on the overall 
economy.
    The President. Well, I disagree with that. I would like--I would 
hope that they would argue the case on the floor of the Senate and the 
floor of the House, but the skeptics said it needs to be bigger. One of 
the things they also said was it's very important

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to hold the line on spending--that's another thing, that we accomplished 
something in the budget, discretionary spending is being held to about 4 
percent. On the spending side, we've got restraint. We just need to make 
sure the package is robust enough to create new jobs so people can find 
work.
    Mr. Brokaw. It's tough to come out here to Ohio, though. You've got 
a Republican Governor who went in at a very high number, and now he's 
down to around 42 percent in terms of approval rating. He's having to 
raise taxes, cut services. Wouldn't it be better to defer a little bit, 
get him off the hook? And these are important services that he's talking 
about. It's about Medicaid and----
    The President. No, not at all. Actually, what's important is--and 
this is the reason to come to Ohio. It's a place where people are 
looking for work. And I feel so strongly that my job package will work, 
I'm willing to come to a place where people need work and say, let's get 
this done in the Congress. And this is the perfect place to bring a 
message of job creation, because there are people here that--in the 
manufacturing sector, in particular--that are looking for work.

Energy Policy

    Mr. Brokaw. Mr. President, I've been struck by the fact that you now 
have the country's attention, and there's been almost no discussion 
about the need for conservation on energy and finding renewable sources 
and making that the highest of the high priorities. I think the country 
is ready to make a sacrifice, to do something.
    The President. Well, actually, there's been a significant discussion 
about new sources of energy. I was the guy that stood in front of 
Congress and asked Congress to appropriate $1.2 billion to advance the 
hydrogen automobile. In other words--as well as ask Congress to 
appropriate monies to explore the opportunities for nuclear fusion.
    And I believe that instead of getting mired in this talk about 
command and control and lawsuits and regulations, that we ought to use 
our technological capabilities to leapfrog the status quo and lead the 
world to a more energy efficient society.
    Mr. Brokaw. But should we also assume that we can burn at the same 
rate that we have been? And you know, there's just no question about it, 
we've been on an energy consumption binge.
    The President. Yes, that's right. And I think that that's why we 
need new technologies to help us go from one era, a hydrocarbon era, to 
a technologically driven era. And I believe we can get there. We've got 
energy for, you know, a decade or two, without the consumer suffering 
badly. But now is the time to move on new technologies. This is 
precisely the initiative I laid out for Congress.

Arctic National Wildlife Refuge

    Mr. Brokaw. You're not going to get the Arctic Wildlife Refuge this 
time, though, do you think?
    The President. Well, it's foolish not to, in my judgment. There's a 
lot of natural gas up there. And the reason we need natural gas here in 
America is so--places like California built a lot of electrical plants 
that run on natural gas. We've got to get it from somewhere, and I 
believe we can explore in the Arctic Wildlife in an environmentally 
sensitive way--and so do a lot of other people.
    But it's become such a political issue. Washington, you know, is a 
town that--you know this better than me, I mean----
    Mr. Brokaw. No, I don't know it better than you. You're in the 
cockpit. [Laughter]
    The President. Well, you've been there longer than me. You're much 
older than I am. [Laughter] But they take an issue and turn it into such 
high politics. Really, the Arctic Wildlife Refuge is a classic example 
of an issue that's been over-politicized, where the science never is 
allowed to emerge. We can drill for natural gas, which

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we need to do, in an environmentally safe way.

President's Spirituality and Decisionmaking

    Mr. Brokaw. Let me ask you about the war and your attitudes about 
it. It's well known that you're a man of very strong faith. You have 
political and national security responsibilities as well. Was there a 
time when it was difficult to reconcile those two roles, your political 
and national security responsibility and your own spiritual obligation?
    The President. Well, listen, any time you think about committing 
someone into combat is an emotional moment. You can't be detached from 
the human life involved with war. And I genuinely feel that the decision 
I made will make America more secure. And I felt like the risks of doing 
nothing, the risk of taking no action far exceeded the risks of combat, 
particularly since I knew our plan was geared toward minimizing life--
minimizing loss of life--not only minimizing loss of life on our side 
but on the side of the innocent Iraqis.
    I don't bring God into my life to be a political person. I ask God 
for strength and guidance. I ask God to help me be a better person. But 
the decision about war and peace was a decision I made based upon what I 
thought were the best interests of the American people. I was able to 
step back from religion, because I have a job to do. And I, on bended 
knee to the good Lord, asked Him to help me to do my job in a way that 
that's wise.

Casualties of War

    Mr. Brokaw. I had a difficult moment on the air when the mother of a 
marine who got killed called in and wanted to talk about her son and 
said, ``You know, I like what the networks are doing, but all those 
graphics and all that fancy coverage, for those of us who are out here 
with children in harm's way, it's murderous, Mr. Brokaw.'' And it put it 
all in perspective. Did you have a moment like that?
    The President. Oh, I think, yes, maybe about the day the prisoners, 
the people took the wrong turn, the kids, the cooks, and the people like 
that from El Paso, Fort Bliss, went the wrong way. That was a tough day. 
And it's got to be--listen, I went down to Camp Lejeune and met with 
family of--who've lost their lives. I met a young lieutenant's wife with 
a young baby, and it's tough.
    The amazing thing is, of course--I shouldn't say ``of course''--but 
the amazing thing about meeting those people is they gave me great 
strength. They were proud of their loved ones' sacrifice. They 
understood why we were there, and they were strong, really strong.
    Mr. Brokaw. There was a young marine who was killed, whose father in 
Baltimore held up his picture and said, ``I want the President to see 
this. It's my only son, and I want the President to see this picture.'' 
He was opposed to the war. Did you see it?
    The President. No, I didn't see that, but I'm sure I can understand 
why a dad would feel that way. I would feel the same way if I were a dad 
about how miserable I felt if I lost my son.

Politics of War

    Mr. Brokaw. Can you imagine being FDR and running World War II all 
those years; Truman, Korea? All the years that Vietnam went on, and 
57,000 lives were lost.
    The President. I know.
    Mr. Brokaw. Now that you've had your own----
    The President. One month.
    Mr. Brokaw. ----one month, but your own time on the crucible, to 
know what the country would go through?
    The President. It's a very interesting question, because--yes, I 
know, I can't imagine what it would be like to have been through the 
Vietnam war as the President of the United States. I hope I would have 
done it differently. I hope I would have

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had a clearer mission and given the militaries the tools and their 
strategy necessary to achieve a mission, as opposed to politicizing the 
war the way they did. But you're right, it's a strain on the country.
    On the other hand, the coverage was a little different.
    Mr. Brokaw. It was.
    The President. The perpetual moves 24 hours a day.
    Mr. Brokaw. And part of that was, by the way, that it became very 
emotional very quickly. One of the things that you said was that you 
wanted to liberate the Iraqi people so they could speak their minds. But 
in this country, when some people spoke their minds and it happened to 
be in opposition of the war, they got jumped on by a lot of folks.
    The President. Oh, I don't think so.
    Mr. Brokaw. Well, the Dixie Chicks, for example. Would you have them 
come to the White House?
    The President. I mean, the   
Emily Chicks are free to speak 
their mind. They can say what they want to say. And just because--they 
shouldn't have their feelings hurt just because some people don't want 
to buy their records when they speak out. You know, freedom is a two-way 
street. But I have--don't really care what the Dixie Chicks said. I want 
to do what I think is right for the American people, and if some singers 
or Hollywood stars feel like speaking out, that's fine. That's the great 
thing about America. It stands in stark contrast to Iraq, by the way.

First Lady's Role

    Mr. Brokaw. What did you and Laura talk about at the end of the day? 
During Usama bin Laden, she was counseling you on your language--
[laughter]--saying----
    The President. It wasn't so every day. [Laughter]
    Mr. Brokaw. ----``Georgie, you don't have to say ``wanted dead or 
alive.'''
    The President. Well, she counsels me on a lot 
of things. Most of the time it's--but who's going to listen. She 
understood all along why I was making decisions I was making. She 
understood the threat that Iraq posed. She understood that Iraq was a 
part of the war on terror. And she doesn't--she's like a lot of people; 
she was nervous about war.

Former President Bush .

    Mr. Brokaw. So was your dad, by the way.
    The President. I'm sure he was. Nobody likes wars.
    Mr. Brokaw. Did your dad talk to you every day?
    The President. No. I check in with him on occasion, but now we don't 
talk every day.
    Mr. Brokaw. How about Barbara? What does 
she have to say, your mother?
    The President. She's as feisty as ever. She's doing well. She 
doesn't follow everything in the news and the opinion like Dad does. 
He's an every-word man.
    Mr. Brokaw. Do you seek his counsel? It's a little tricky. Here's 
your father, somebody that you revered and love, and he's been there 
before. But at the same time, you're now the President. How do you work 
that out?
    The President. Well, I really don't spend a lot of time hashing over 
policy with him. He knows that I am much better informed than he could 
possibly be. He gives me--our relationship is more of--and our 
conversations are more along the line of a dad and a son, a dad 
conveying to his son how much he loves him, which is important. Even at 
the age of 56 years old, it's important.

Toppling the Baghdad Statue

    Mr. Brokaw. Did you call him the day the statue came down of Saddam 
Hussein?
    The President. I can't remember.
    Mr. Brokaw. Because that was a memorable day.
    The President. It was. It was.
    Mr. Brokaw. Did you watch all that?

[[Page 384]]

    The President. I watched some of it. As you know, I've got a 
schedule to keep. I don't have time to sit around watching TV all day 
long. But somebody--I think the--Ashley or 
Blake said, ``The statue, they're about to 
get it down.'' They had a guy hammering on it for a while, and I watched 
the hammering----
    Mr. Brokaw. It took a while to pull it down.
    The President. I watched them hammer. And then they said, ``They're 
hooking it up, and they've got the crane out there.'' And I said, 
``Well, let me know.'' They said, ``Well, it's about to come down.'' So 
I hustled and then watched it.

Iraqi Information Minister Said Kazim

    Mr. Brokaw. What about the Iraqi information minister, who to the 
very end--[laughter]----
    The President. He's my man. He was great. [Laughter] Somebody 
accused us of hiring him and putting him there. He was a classic.
    Mr. Brokaw. Al-Sahhaf.
    The President. Al-Sahhaf.
    Mr. Brokaw. He said, ``We are repulsing them at the airport. This 
war is just about over.'' [Laughter]
    The President. He was great. [Laughter]
    Mr. Brokaw. Did you watch him actually? [Laughter]
    The President. I did watch some of his clips. You know, a lot of the 
stuff I get, people come in and report to me--did you hear what so-and-
so said, or, did you see that? So I get a lot of things secondhand.
    But in the case of the statue or Sahhaf, somebody would say, ``He's 
getting ready to speak,'' and I'd pop out of a meeting or turn and watch 
the TV.

Saddam Hussein 

    Mr. Brokaw. And did they tell you when Saddam made those bizarre 
video appearances very late in the war, when he was said to be walking 
around the neighborhood----
    The President. Yes, I saw some of that. Like, Condi will come in and say--I'll pick up the phone; 
I've got direct link now--I'll say, ``Well, Condi, what is this business 
about, what does the Agency say about this latest videotape?'' She'll 
pop in and say, ``You know, I talked to Tenet, and Tenet says our analysts can't imagine that the guy 
could possibly be alive, walking around Baghdad the same day the statue 
came down.''
    You know, as I told you, we had some evidence early on that strikes 
from the first day may have gotten him. I say ``may'' because we don't 
have the DNA in hand to prove, and people really don't want to be in a 
position, Tom, where you make--broadcasting success and then all of a 
sudden Saddam Hussein shows up somewhere. According to this one 
eyewitness, he's not going to show up anywhere.

Al Qaida and North Korea

    Mr. Brokaw. Final question. You still have two big issues out there 
on the horizon, Al Qaida and North Korea. North Korea today saying that 
it's reprocessed 8,000 plutonium rods, and if you don't start talking to 
them, they're willing to sell them.
    The President. Yes. See, they're back to the old blackmail game. One 
of our goals and objectives must be to strengthen the nonproliferation 
regimes and get the whole world focused on the proliferation of weapons 
of mass destruction or the materials for weapons of mass destruction. 
And North Korea is making my case that we've got to come together.
    And we started that process in the North Korean Peninsula that is 
coming together. The Chinese now, for the first time, are partners at 
the table. I look forward to hearing what the Chinese say about being 
rebuffed by the North Koreans because they, too, believe that the 
Peninsula ought to be nuclear-weapons-free. This will give us an 
opportunity to say to the North Koreans and the world, we're not going 
to be threatened. On the other hand we, the

[[Page 385]]

world, must come together to make sure institutions like the IAEA are 
effective at stopping proliferation.
    It's another reason, by the way, for us to also advance the missile 
defense systems, because the missile defense system will make it less 
likely that a nuclear country could blackmail us or Japan or any one of 
our friends.
    Mr. Brokaw. And Al Qaida?
    The President. Yes, we're on the hunt on Al Qaida.
    Mr. Brokaw. Has it diminished 50 percent, 70 percent?
    The President. I can't give you a number, but it's certainly 
diminished. And Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's 
Sheik arrest, right before the Iraqi war, was a blow to the 
Al Qaida network. They're still moving around. And we're watching. And 
we're moving. We're cutting off money. There are some parts of 
Afghanistan where we think some are hiding, and we've got--we're on 
their trail.
    The other day, for example, in the Situation Room, we had 
Tommy up, and he gave us a briefing on Iraq. 
He's the CENTCOM commander, as you know, also responsible for 
Afghanistan, and then the general in place in Afghanistan came up. So we 
split the briefing between Iraq and Afghanistan. And it was an important 
briefing because he was telling us troop strength and troop strategies 
as well as how well the country is beginning to get on its feet.
    But the point I'm trying to make is, is that we are constantly 
moving against Al Qaida in Afghanistan as we speak or as we conduct the 
Iraq theater.
    Mr. Brokaw. Mr. President, thank you very much for your time today. 
We really appreciate it.
    The President. I enjoyed it.

Note: The interview was taped at 11:14 a.m. aboard Air Force One for 
later broadcast. In his remarks, the President referred to former 
President Saddam Hussein and former Information Minister Muhammad Said 
Kazim al-Sahhaf of Iraq; Prime Minister Tony Blair of the United 
Kingdom; President Jose Maria Aznar of Spain; former National Security 
Adviser Brent Scowcroft; journalists George Will and Bill Kristol; Prime 
Minister Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) and Chairman Yasser Arafat of the 
Palestinian Authority; Melanie Bloom, widow of NBC journalist David 
Bloom, who died of natural causes in Operation Iraqi Freedom; country 
music group the Dixie Chicks; Ashley Estes, Personal Secretary to the 
President; Blake Gottesman, Personal Aide to the President; Usama bin 
Laden, leader of the Al Qaida terrorist organization; and Khalid Sheikh 
Muhammed, senior Al Qaida leader responsible for planning the September 
11, 2001, terrorist attack, who was captured in Pakistan on March 1, 
2003. A portion of this interview could not be verified because the tape 
was incomplete.