[Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: George W. Bush (2002, Book I)]
[April 4, 2002]
[Pages 553-559]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]



Interview With the United Kingdom's ITV Television Network
April 4, 2002

Situation in the Middle East

    Trevor McDonald. Mr. President, the 
situation in the Middle East is desperate beyond words. How far are you 
prepared to go to resolve the crisis?
    The President. Well, today I gave a speech which shows my resolve to 
work with all parties concerned to try to achieve a lasting peace. On 
the one hand, I called upon the Arab world to fight to cut off the 
money, to stop this business about glorifying suicide bombers by calling 
them martyrs, to make sure that the press does encourage violence and 
killing and murder. And on the other hand, I said Israel has a right to 
defend herself--I fully understand that--but that it's time for her to 
withdraw from the occupied territory.
    And the reason I feel that way is that I began to worry that the 
foundations necessary to achieve lasting peace were becoming eroded. In 
order for Israel to be able to exist, it requires the Arab world's 
willingness to encourage the conditions so that she can exist. And in 
order for there to be a Palestinian state, which I support, there needs 
to be the conditions so that a Palestinian state can exist. And those 
conditions were becoming eroded, so we acted strong.
    I'm sending our very capable Secretary of State, Colin 
Powell, to the region. He goes there with 
the mandate of working with the leadership in that part of the world, as 
well as with the European Union and others, to implement what the U.N. 
resolution--a recent U.N. Resolution 1042, which lays out the steps 
necessary to eventually get to a political solution.
    Mr. McDonald. But has this come a little 
late, Mr. President? The Secretary of State has been there before; the 
Vice President has been in the region; you've had General Zinni there.
    The President. I thought my speech came right about the right time.
    Mr. McDonald. But for so long now, for 
many, many days, if not weeks, people could see this situation spiraling 
rapidly out of control.
    The President. Well, the problem is, you can't see the killers. You 
can't see the suicide bombers. And what we're trying to do is to rally 
the world to expose them

[[Page 554]]

and to expose those who are funding them and to say to Iran, ``Stop 
it,'' and to Syria, ``You must choose.''
    That's the problem. The invisible part of everything that you 
thought you could see, you can't see, which is killers who are going 
into Passover-type celebrations and killing people, killing innocent 
people. And we've got to stop that, Trevor; we just have to. In order 
for there to be peace, there must be--there must be a world effort to 
stop the suicide and the killers. Those people kill for one reason: to 
stop the peace, to stop a plan from coming into effect.
    And this silly notion about somehow our Government hasn't been 
involved is just silly. I mean, we've had Zinni there, as you said. The Vice President's there. The Secretary of State has been there in the past; he's going back.
    Mr. McDonald. So what is different this 
time?
    The President. Well, this time hopefully there is a resolve. 
Hopefully, there's a resolve to the needless killing and the loss of 
innocent life that responsible citizens stand up and say, ``Enough is 
enough.'' That's what I said today, ``Enough is enough.'' And I believe 
that.
    I'll tell you something else that is different. Crown Prince 
Abdullah of Saudi Arabia laid out his 
initiative that essentially says the Arab world must recognize Israel's 
right to exist, which was a significant change, and we've got to seize 
on that bold initiative.

Chairman Yasser Arafat of the Palestinian 
Authority

    Mr. McDonald. Will Secretary of State 
Colin Powell meet Yasser Arafat?
    The President. I have no idea yet. I'll tell you what he is going to do. He's going to go work with the 
leadership to bring people together. My worry is, is that Yasser Arafat 
can't perform. He's been given plenty of opportunities.
    Mr. McDonald. Has he forfeited your 
trust?
    The President. He certainly hasn't earned it. Here's a man who said 
that he has signed onto Oslo, that he was going to fight off terror. We 
thought we had a cease-fire arranged. We were that close to a cease-
fire, and the next thing we know, there's a suicide bomber that hits. We 
thought a couple of months ago that--we thought we had an agreement. The 
next thing we know, he's ordered a shipment of arms from Iran.
    Now, he's got a long way to go, and it starts with him proving that 
he can lead. He has let his people down, and there are others in the 
region who can lead and those who have called upon those others in the 
region to lead. And Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia has taken a leadership role. 
President Mubarak of Egypt is a leader. King 
Abdullah of Jordan is a leader.
    And so Colin Powell is going to go to 
the region to gather those leaders up and to start a process hopefully 
that will lead to lasting peace.
    Mr. McDonald. You come pretty close to 
suggesting that Palestinians should look for another leader.
    The President. It's up to them. Far be it from the American 
President to get to decide who leads what country. I'm just telling you 
since I've been the President, the man hasn't performed.

Situation in the Middle East

    Mr. McDonald. Is there an emerging 
difference between the United States and Britain about how this should 
be solved?
    The President. No, I don't think so.
    Mr. McDonald. Let me tell you, the 
British Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw, says sending in tanks to Ramallah 
and to Bethlehem is no response to suicide bombers. You seem to imply 
that anything should be done to counter terrorism. That's the 
difference.
    The President. No, actually----
    Mr. McDonald. And a significant one.
    The President. I think I just told you that I asked for Israel to 
withdraw the cities

[[Page 555]]

which she now occupies, so the extent that that's what the Foreign 
Secretary says, that's fine. The man I talked to 
is Tony Blair, and I talked to him this morning 
and informed him about what I was going to say. And I gave him--he was 
the first foreign leader, by the way, I called to detail the speech that 
I delivered at 11 a.m. here in the U.S. And he was, one, appreciative of 
the phone call, it seemed like, and two, applauded what was going to be 
in the speech. He thought, at least--I hate to put words in somebody 
else's mouth, but from my perspective----
    Mr. McDonald. [Inaudible]--that it was 
about time, did he----
    The President. Those are your words, not his.

War on Terrorism

    Mr. McDonald. Mr. President, turning to 
the war on terror, which you declared in the aftermath of the events of 
September 11th, hasn't it reached something of a stalemate?
    The President. Is that a serious question?
    Mr. McDonald. I meant it as a serious 
question.
    The President. Well, it's not. Well, no. Of course, we haven't had a 
stalemate. We're winning. I mean, we just arrested a guy named Abu 
Zubaydah. We crushed the Taliban; they're no 
longer in office. We've got schools open for the first time in 
Afghanistan, where girls are going. For the first time, young girls are 
going to school. It's been a glorious series of victories, thanks to 
friends such as the British.
    We've got a lot more work to do--don't get me wrong--but I don't 
think there's any stalemate to it.

Afghanistan

    Mr. McDonald. At your request, the 
British are sending 1,700 more troops to Afghanistan. Is there a danger 
that they might become sucked into a never-ending commitment?
    The President. No. No, it's not, because we've got a plan on how to 
get out. But first things first. We've got to find those Al Qaida 
killers and bring them to justice. What the world needs to know is, 
there are still a lot of these murderers on the loose, and that's what 
they are. And anybody who thinks that we can rehabilitate them just 
simply doesn't know the nature of the enemy.

Usama bin Laden

    Mr. McDonald. And their leaders--on the 
loose, too.
    The President. Well, there's one less on the loose. And we don't 
know if Mr. bin Laden is on the loose. I don't know if you know, but I 
hadn't heard from him in the----
    Mr. McDonald. I was hoping you would 
tell us what you think. Is bin Laden alive?
    The President. I have no idea. But I'll tell you this: He's not 
making a lot of noise these days. And maybe he's dug in one of those 
holes, but there's not a hole deep enough. They're going to get him if 
he's still alive. And these people are killers, and that's the way we're 
going to treat them. They're international crooks, and we're going to 
hunt them down one by one.
    I know there's a certain kind of anxiety amongst people in the 
press, for example, who want this thing over with tomorrow. But that's 
not the nature of this war. This is a different kind of war. This is a 
war that requires incredible patience and resolve. And make no mistake 
about it: I've got the patience and the resolve necessary to win, and so 
does my country. We're united in this effort, and we're going to do 
whatever it takes to rout out these terrorist organizations.

President Saddam Hussein of Iraq

    Mr. McDonald. You've been very clear, 
Mr. President, turning to the question of Iraq, that it's part of an 
axis of evil, as I think you called it. When you meet Tony

[[Page 556]]

Blair in the coming days, will you be discussing the possibility of an 
attack on Iraq?
    The President. I'll be talking a lot of things about Iraq with 
him, starting with the fact that we both 
recognize that Saddam Hussein is a dangerous man and he harbors and 
develops weapons of mass destruction--make no mistake about it--that he 
has got a variety of weapons that can harm mankind and he's not afraid 
to use them, including on his own people.
    And so we'll be discussing that, and we'll be discussing all 
options. I have no immediate plans to conduct military operations. But 
as one of my closest friends, personal friends amongst the world 
leaders, and one of my Nation's closest allies, of course we're going to 
discuss all options.
    Mr. McDonald. I take your point about no 
immediate plans, but in a sense, have you made up your mind that Iraq 
must be attacked?
    The President. I made up my mind that Saddam needs to go. That's 
about all I'm willing to share with you.
    Mr. McDonald. And you would take action 
to make sure that happens? And of course, if the logic of the war on 
terror means anything--which you have explained--then Saddam must go?
    The President. That's what I just said. The policy of my Government 
is that he goes.
    Mr. McDonald. People think that Saddam 
Hussein has had no links with the Al Qaida network, and I'm wondering 
why you have----
    The President. The worst thing that could happen would be to allow a 
nation like Iraq, run by Saddam Hussein, to develop weapons of mass 
destruction and then team up with terrorist organizations so they can 
blackmail the world. I'm not going to let that happen.
    Mr. McDonald. So you're going to go 
after him?
    The President. As I told you, the policy of my Government is that 
Saddam Hussein not be in power.
    Mr. McDonald. And how are you going to 
achieve this, Mr. President?
    The President. Wait and see.
    Mr. McDonald. Do you think that the 
international coalition, which you--which an administration once 
assembled for the Gulf war, when Kuwait was invaded and the aggressors 
were undoubtedly the Iraqis--do you think that that international 
coalition can be assembled again for another attack on Iraq?
    The President. I think the coalition can be assembled to demand that 
Iraq let inspectors back in, like she agreed to do right after the Gulf 
war. I don't know why the man won't let inspectors in. He's probably got 
something to hide, don't you think?
    And the idea of having this man, who is willing to murder his own 
people, have weapons of mass destruction--I'm not going to let that 
happen, and neither will the free world. So I'm confident that we can 
lead a coalition to pressure Saddam Hussein and to deal with Saddam 
Hussein.
    Mr. McDonald. You say you are confident 
about this coalition. Certainly, Britain, there are grave misgivings 
about it. And Tony Blair is under pressure within his own party: 51 
percent of the British people think, in an opinion poll, that Saddam 
Hussein should not be attacked at this time. How are you going to do 
that? How are you going to accomplish that?
    The President. How am I going to change the minds of Britain?
    Mr. McDonald. And a number of European 
countries, too.
    The President. Well, we'll just watch and see what happens. I'm 
going to work closely with our friends and consult with our friends, 
like I am doing.
    One thing Tony Blair does understand is that 
Saddam Hussein is a dangerous person. And I admire his courage for 
speaking the truth, and he speaks clearly about the truth. And that's 
one of the reasons why I like his advice and treasure his counsel.

[[Page 557]]

    Mr. McDonald. So what you are calling on 
Saddam Hussein to do is to let the inspectors back in----
    The President. Yes, of course. That's what he said he would do.
    Mr. McDonald. And that's the way he can 
avoid----
    The President. But this is not an issue of inspectors. This is an 
issue of him upholding his word that he would not develop weapons of 
mass destruction.
    Mr. McDonald. So whether he allows the 
inspectors in or not, he is on the list to be attacked; he's the next 
target?
    The President. You keep trying to put--you're one these clever 
reporters that keeps trying to put words in my mouth.
    Mr. McDonald. Far from that, Mr. 
President.
    The President. Well, I'm afraid you do, sir. But nevertheless, 
you've had my answer on this subject. And I have no plans to attack on 
my desk. A policy of my Government is for Saddam not to be in office. 
It's in the interests of the free world that he not be in office, and 
it's in the interests of the free world that he not be allowed to 
develop weapons of mass destruction. And the first thing is he must show 
us whether or not he has weapons of mass destruction, just like he 
promised he would do.
    Mr. McDonald. And you will have to build 
the job of the coalition to make sure that this----
    The President. We've got a vast coalition for freedom right now. And 
I talk to leaders all the time, and of course, the subject of Iraq, 
amongst other subjects, comes up. And I explained to them precisely what 
I'm explaining to you. And most people understand that history has 
called us into action. History has given us an opportunity to fight for 
freedom, and we all will fight for freedom.

Situation in the Middle East

    Mr. McDonald. Mr. President, to really 
put your stamp on a solution in the Middle East--which will help in 
other ways in fighting this war against terror, as you, yourself, have 
said--might you be willing to convene a summit to get both sides 
together and to discuss these problems and to try to resolve these?
    The President. Well, we've tried summits in the past, as you may 
remember. There wasn't one all that long ago where a summit was called 
and nothing happened, and as a result we had a significant intifada in 
the area.
    The only time that's appropriate for a U.S. President to call a 
summit, when it looks like something can get done. And in the meantime, 
the Secretary of State is very much involved 
in the Middle East. And I don't know if you want to call it a summit, 
but he's going to have meetings with leaders, attempting to get in place 
Resolution 1042, which the Security Council has agreed to, which will 
lead to a political settlement--if all the parties participate.
    Mr. McDonald. Mr. President, thank you, 
sir.
    The President. You're welcome. Glad you're here.
    Mr. McDonald. Thank you, sir.

[At this point, the network took a commercial break.]

Pressures of the Presidency

    Mr. McDonald. How do you cope with the 
pressures----
    The President. Well, I'm a man--I believe in prayer; I believe in 
exercise; I've got a great wife--balance, as they 
say. Obviously, I'm reminded of what's important in life. We've got a 
fabulous team. We've got one of the great administrations in American 
history, and it gives me great comfort to know that the advice I get is 
honest, straightforward advice from very experienced people.

[[Page 558]]

Aftermath of September 11 Attacks

    Mr. McDonald. Has anything surprised you 
about the pressures, having these crises--have there been any surprises 
since you came into the Oval Office?
    The President. I think the surprise was how clearly I saw what we 
needed to do after 9/11. I shouldn't say surprised, I guess. Pleased 
with how clearly I saw things. I was obviously emotional, but I knew 
what the country needed to do. And I was really pleased with the way the 
country responded.
    Mr. McDonald. How do you think America 
has changed after those terrible events of September the 11th?
    The President. Well, I think a lot of people are now taking an 
assessment about what's important in life. I hope moms and dads are 
saying, ``What can I do to be better mother or father?'' I know a lot of 
my fellow Americans have asked, ``What can we do to help fight on the 
war against terror?'' And I answer by saying, ``Love somebody. Be a good 
neighbor. Help some kid who just wonders whether the American experience 
is meant for them, or teach somebody how to read.'' In other words, 
there's a lot of small acts that help define the face of America, which 
really do contribute to standing up against evil.
    You've probably heard me speak. I truly believe that this is a fight 
against evil. These killers are evil people. They've hijacked a 
religion, and they want to commit murder in order to justify the goals 
and the ambitions of a few people.

Situation in the Middle East

    Mr. McDonald. You understand that there 
are, sort of, different perceptions about this? For example, I heard 
after you made your latest speech about the crisis in the Middle East, a 
Palestinian spokesman said, ``Yes, but we also live under the terrorism 
of occupation.'' Do you understand that?
    The President. Sure, people have--look, my job isn't to try to 
nuance. My job is to tell people what I think. And when I think there's 
an axis of evil, I say it. I think moral clarity is important, if you 
believe in freedom. And people can make all kinds of excuses, but there 
are some truths involved.
    And one of the truths is, they're sending suicide killers in--
because they hate Israel. That's a truth. And you can justify it any way 
you want, but nevertheless, the role of the President, as far as I'm 
concerned, is to stand up and tell the truth, and I did today. I made it 
as plain as I could. I try to speak as plainly as I can. I know people 
don't like it when I say there's evil; this is evil versus good. But 
that's not going to stop me from saying what I think is right.
    Mr. McDonald. Your Palestinian 
interlocutors will say that they--you have to balance that against the 
fact that they live, as they say, under this occupation. They also have 
increasing settlements. And there is a kind of tyranny, they say, they 
would claim----
    The President. Well, in my speech today, I recognized that they need 
to stop the building of settlements. And it is my Government that laid 
out the Tenet, and then the Mitchell plans, which both sides agreed to, 
which will lead to peace. The problem is, they haven't lived up to the 
agreement. And I'm calling on the Palestinians to live up to the 
agreement. And I'm calling on the Israelis to pull out of the occupied 
territory, the places, the cities they've occupied recently, trying to 
set up a situation where we can achieve peace. That's what I want. I 
want peace. And I believe it can happen, otherwise I wouldn't be working 
so hard on it. I'm an optimist. As you can see, the way we've got the 
Oval Office here designed, it's open, and it's optimistic, and it's 
sunny. That's what I feel about life.
    It was right in this room where Vladimir Putin came in, and I had a fantastic meeting with him 
here. Finally, we're getting rid of the cold war, where we hated each 
other. You know, if you'd been sitting in

[[Page 559]]

the fifties, saying, ``Can you ever imagine a U.S. President and a 
Russian President sitting here and talking like friends,'' you'd have 
said, ``Of course not. How farfetched is that?''
    That's what I used as an example today as what is possible in the 
Middle East. And I think it is possible. All of us are going to have to 
work to achieve that goal.
    Mr. McDonald. But you're not very much 
into, sort of big, set peace summits to do that?
    The President. Well, he'd better--the problem is, the American 
President, when he calls a summit, better get it right.
    Mr. McDonald. He puts his personal 
reputation on the line.
    The President. This doesn't have nothing to do with reputation. It 
has everything to do with the consequences if it fails. It's not the 
President--see, that's the problem. It's not all about the person. It's 
about the people who live in the region. If a summit fails, if the 
President puts--lays it out there and nothing happens, generally the 
status--the followup is worse than the status quo. And that's what 
Presidents must understand.
     We're dealing with people's lives and expectations. And I think 
there's a better way to achieve--what we want is peace. Someday that may 
happen, don't get me wrong. Someday you may say, ``I remember when I 
talked to old Bush, and there he is, sitting there with a big summit.'' 
But now is not the time for one. I've got a different strategy.

Note: The interview was taped at 3:07 p.m. in the library at the White 
House. In his remarks, the President referred to U.S. Special Envoy to 
the Middle East Gen. Anthony Zinni, USMC (Ret.); President Hosni Mubarak 
of Egypt; King Abdullah II of Jordan; Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi 
Arabia; Prime Minister Tony Blair and Secretary of State for Foreign and 
Commonwealth Affairs Jack Straw of the United Kingdom; Abu Zubaydah and 
Usama bin Laden, leaders of the Al Qaida terrorist organization; and 
President Vladimir Putin of Russia. The President also referred to the 
Tenet plan, the Israeli-Palestinian cease-fire and security plan of June 
13, 2001, negotiated by Director of Central Intelligence George J. 
Tenet; and the Mitchell report, the Report of the Sharm el-Sheikh Fact-
Finding Committee, issued April 30, 2001. A tape was not available for 
verification of the content of this interview.