    [Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: George W. Bush (2002, Book I)]
    [April 4, 2002]
    [Pages 553-559]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]

    Interview With the United Kingdom's ITV Television Network
    April 4, 2002

    Situation in the Middle East

        Trevor McDonald. Mr. President, the
    situation in the Middle East is desperate beyond words. How far are you
    prepared to go to resolve the crisis?
        The President. Well, today I gave a speech which shows my resolve to
    work with all parties concerned to try to achieve a lasting peace. On
    the one hand, I called upon the Arab world to fight to cut off the
    money, to stop this business about glorifying suicide bombers by calling
    them martyrs, to make sure that the press does encourage violence and
    killing and murder. And on the other hand, I said Israel has a right to
    defend herself--I fully understand that--but that it's time for her to
    withdraw from the occupied territory.
        And the reason I feel that way is that I began to worry that the
    foundations necessary to achieve lasting peace were becoming eroded. In
    order for Israel to be able to exist, it requires the Arab world's
    willingness to encourage the conditions so that she can exist. And in
    order for there to be a Palestinian state, which I support, there needs
    to be the conditions so that a Palestinian state can exist. And those
    conditions were becoming eroded, so we acted strong.
        I'm sending our very capable Secretary of State, Colin
    Powell, to the region. He goes there with
    the mandate of working with the leadership in that part of the world, as
    well as with the European Union and others, to implement what the U.N.
    resolution--a recent U.N. Resolution 1042, which lays out the steps
    necessary to eventually get to a political solution.
        Mr. McDonald. But has this come a little
    late, Mr. President? The Secretary of State has been there before; the
    Vice President has been in the region; you've had General Zinni there.
        The President. I thought my speech came right about the right time.
        Mr. McDonald. But for so long now, for
    many, many days, if not weeks, people could see this situation spiraling
    rapidly out of control.
        The President. Well, the problem is, you can't see the killers. You
    can't see the suicide bombers. And what we're trying to do is to rally
    the world to expose them

    [[Page 554]]

    and to expose those who are funding them and to say to Iran, ``Stop
    it,'' and to Syria, ``You must choose.''
        That's the problem. The invisible part of everything that you
    thought you could see, you can't see, which is killers who are going
    into Passover-type celebrations and killing people, killing innocent
    people. And we've got to stop that, Trevor; we just have to. In order
    for there to be peace, there must be--there must be a world effort to
    stop the suicide and the killers. Those people kill for one reason: to
    stop the peace, to stop a plan from coming into effect.
        And this silly notion about somehow our Government hasn't been
    involved is just silly. I mean, we've had Zinni there, as you said. The Vice President's there. The Secretary of State has been there in the past; he's going back.
        Mr. McDonald. So what is different this
    time?
        The President. Well, this time hopefully there is a resolve.
    Hopefully, there's a resolve to the needless killing and the loss of
    innocent life that responsible citizens stand up and say, ``Enough is
    enough.'' That's what I said today, ``Enough is enough.'' And I believe
    that.
        I'll tell you something else that is different. Crown Prince
    Abdullah of Saudi Arabia laid out his
    initiative that essentially says the Arab world must recognize Israel's
    right to exist, which was a significant change, and we've got to seize
    on that bold initiative.

    Chairman Yasser Arafat of the Palestinian
    Authority

        Mr. McDonald. Will Secretary of State
    Colin Powell meet Yasser Arafat?
        The President. I have no idea yet. I'll tell you what he is going to do. He's going to go work with the
    leadership to bring people together. My worry is, is that Yasser Arafat
    can't perform. He's been given plenty of opportunities.
        Mr. McDonald. Has he forfeited your
    trust?
        The President. He certainly hasn't earned it. Here's a man who said
    that he has signed onto Oslo, that he was going to fight off terror. We
    thought we had a cease-fire arranged. We were that close to a cease-
    fire, and the next thing we know, there's a suicide bomber that hits. We
    thought a couple of months ago that--we thought we had an agreement. The
    next thing we know, he's ordered a shipment of arms from Iran.
        Now, he's got a long way to go, and it starts with him proving that
    he can lead. He has let his people down, and there are others in the
    region who can lead and those who have called upon those others in the
    region to lead. And Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia has taken a leadership role.
    President Mubarak of Egypt is a leader. King
    Abdullah of Jordan is a leader.
        And so Colin Powell is going to go to
    the region to gather those leaders up and to start a process hopefully
    that will lead to lasting peace.
        Mr. McDonald. You come pretty close to
    suggesting that Palestinians should look for another leader.
        The President. It's up to them. Far be it from the American
    President to get to decide who leads what country. I'm just telling you
    since I've been the President, the man hasn't performed.

    Situation in the Middle East

        Mr. McDonald. Is there an emerging
    difference between the United States and Britain about how this should
    be solved?
        The President. No, I don't think so.
        Mr. McDonald. Let me tell you, the
    British Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw, says sending in tanks to Ramallah
    and to Bethlehem is no response to suicide bombers. You seem to imply
    that anything should be done to counter terrorism. That's the
    difference.
        The President. No, actually----
        Mr. McDonald. And a significant one.
        The President. I think I just told you that I asked for Israel to
    withdraw the cities

    [[Page 555]]

    which she now occupies, so the extent that that's what the Foreign
    Secretary says, that's fine. The man I talked to
    is Tony Blair, and I talked to him this morning
    and informed him about what I was going to say. And I gave him--he was
    the first foreign leader, by the way, I called to detail the speech that
    I delivered at 11 a.m. here in the U.S. And he was, one, appreciative of
    the phone call, it seemed like, and two, applauded what was going to be
    in the speech. He thought, at least--I hate to put words in somebody
    else's mouth, but from my perspective----
        Mr. McDonald. [Inaudible]--that it was
    about time, did he----
        The President. Those are your words, not his.

    War on Terrorism

        Mr. McDonald. Mr. President, turning to
    the war on terror, which you declared in the aftermath of the events of
    September 11th, hasn't it reached something of a stalemate?
        The President. Is that a serious question?
        Mr. McDonald. I meant it as a serious
    question.
        The President. Well, it's not. Well, no. Of course, we haven't had a
    stalemate. We're winning. I mean, we just arrested a guy named Abu
    Zubaydah. We crushed the Taliban; they're no
    longer in office. We've got schools open for the first time in
    Afghanistan, where girls are going. For the first time, young girls are
    going to school. It's been a glorious series of victories, thanks to
    friends such as the British.
        We've got a lot more work to do--don't get me wrong--but I don't
    think there's any stalemate to it.

    Afghanistan

        Mr. McDonald. At your request, the
    British are sending 1,700 more troops to Afghanistan. Is there a danger
    that they might become sucked into a never-ending commitment?
        The President. No. No, it's not, because we've got a plan on how to
    get out. But first things first. We've got to find those Al Qaida
    killers and bring them to justice. What the world needs to know is,
    there are still a lot of these murderers on the loose, and that's what
    they are. And anybody who thinks that we can rehabilitate them just
    simply doesn't know the nature of the enemy.

    Usama bin Laden

        Mr. McDonald. And their leaders--on the
    loose, too.
        The President. Well, there's one less on the loose. And we don't
    know if Mr. bin Laden is on the loose. I don't know if you know, but I
    hadn't heard from him in the----
        Mr. McDonald. I was hoping you would
    tell us what you think. Is bin Laden alive?
        The President. I have no idea. But I'll tell you this: He's not
    making a lot of noise these days. And maybe he's dug in one of those
    holes, but there's not a hole deep enough. They're going to get him if
    he's still alive. And these people are killers, and that's the way we're
    going to treat them. They're international crooks, and we're going to
    hunt them down one by one.
        I know there's a certain kind of anxiety amongst people in the
    press, for example, who want this thing over with tomorrow. But that's
    not the nature of this war. This is a different kind of war. This is a
    war that requires incredible patience and resolve. And make no mistake
    about it: I've got the patience and the resolve necessary to win, and so
    does my country. We're united in this effort, and we're going to do
    whatever it takes to rout out these terrorist organizations.

    President Saddam Hussein of Iraq

        Mr. McDonald. You've been very clear,
    Mr. President, turning to the question of Iraq, that it's part of an
    axis of evil, as I think you called it. When you meet Tony

    [[Page 556]]

    Blair in the coming days, will you be discussing the possibility of an
    attack on Iraq?
        The President. I'll be talking a lot of things about Iraq with
    him, starting with the fact that we both
    recognize that Saddam Hussein is a dangerous man and he harbors and
    develops weapons of mass destruction--make no mistake about it--that he
    has got a variety of weapons that can harm mankind and he's not afraid
    to use them, including on his own people.
        And so we'll be discussing that, and we'll be discussing all
    options. I have no immediate plans to conduct military operations. But
    as one of my closest friends, personal friends amongst the world
    leaders, and one of my Nation's closest allies, of course we're going to
    discuss all options.
        Mr. McDonald. I take your point about no
    immediate plans, but in a sense, have you made up your mind that Iraq
    must be attacked?
        The President. I made up my mind that Saddam needs to go. That's
    about all I'm willing to share with you.
        Mr. McDonald. And you would take action
    to make sure that happens? And of course, if the logic of the war on
    terror means anything--which you have explained--then Saddam must go?
        The President. That's what I just said. The policy of my Government
    is that he goes.
        Mr. McDonald. People think that Saddam
    Hussein has had no links with the Al Qaida network, and I'm wondering
    why you have----
        The President. The worst thing that could happen would be to allow a
    nation like Iraq, run by Saddam Hussein, to develop weapons of mass
    destruction and then team up with terrorist organizations so they can
    blackmail the world. I'm not going to let that happen.
        Mr. McDonald. So you're going to go
    after him?
        The President. As I told you, the policy of my Government is that
    Saddam Hussein not be in power.
        Mr. McDonald. And how are you going to
    achieve this, Mr. President?
        The President. Wait and see.
        Mr. McDonald. Do you think that the
    international coalition, which you--which an administration once
    assembled for the Gulf war, when Kuwait was invaded and the aggressors
    were undoubtedly the Iraqis--do you think that that international
    coalition can be assembled again for another attack on Iraq?
        The President. I think the coalition can be assembled to demand that
    Iraq let inspectors back in, like she agreed to do right after the Gulf
    war. I don't know why the man won't let inspectors in. He's probably got
    something to hide, don't you think?
        And the idea of having this man, who is willing to murder his own
    people, have weapons of mass destruction--I'm not going to let that
    happen, and neither will the free world. So I'm confident that we can
    lead a coalition to pressure Saddam Hussein and to deal with Saddam
    Hussein.
        Mr. McDonald. You say you are confident
    about this coalition. Certainly, Britain, there are grave misgivings
    about it. And Tony Blair is under pressure within his own party: 51
    percent of the British people think, in an opinion poll, that Saddam
    Hussein should not be attacked at this time. How are you going to do
    that? How are you going to accomplish that?
        The President. How am I going to change the minds of Britain?
        Mr. McDonald. And a number of European
    countries, too.
        The President. Well, we'll just watch and see what happens. I'm
    going to work closely with our friends and consult with our friends,
    like I am doing.
        One thing Tony Blair does understand is that
    Saddam Hussein is a dangerous person. And I admire his courage for
    speaking the truth, and he speaks clearly about the truth. And that's
    one of the reasons why I like his advice and treasure his counsel.

    [[Page 557]]

        Mr. McDonald. So what you are calling on
    Saddam Hussein to do is to let the inspectors back in----
        The President. Yes, of course. That's what he said he would do.
        Mr. McDonald. And that's the way he can
    avoid----
        The President. But this is not an issue of inspectors. This is an
    issue of him upholding his word that he would not develop weapons of
    mass destruction.
        Mr. McDonald. So whether he allows the
    inspectors in or not, he is on the list to be attacked; he's the next
    target?
        The President. You keep trying to put--you're one these clever
    reporters that keeps trying to put words in my mouth.
        Mr. McDonald. Far from that, Mr.
    President.
        The President. Well, I'm afraid you do, sir. But nevertheless,
    you've had my answer on this subject. And I have no plans to attack on
    my desk. A policy of my Government is for Saddam not to be in office.
    It's in the interests of the free world that he not be in office, and
    it's in the interests of the free world that he not be allowed to
    develop weapons of mass destruction. And the first thing is he must show
    us whether or not he has weapons of mass destruction, just like he
    promised he would do.
        Mr. McDonald. And you will have to build
    the job of the coalition to make sure that this----
        The President. We've got a vast coalition for freedom right now. And
    I talk to leaders all the time, and of course, the subject of Iraq,
    amongst other subjects, comes up. And I explained to them precisely what
    I'm explaining to you. And most people understand that history has
    called us into action. History has given us an opportunity to fight for
    freedom, and we all will fight for freedom.

    Situation in the Middle East

        Mr. McDonald. Mr. President, to really
    put your stamp on a solution in the Middle East--which will help in
    other ways in fighting this war against terror, as you, yourself, have
    said--might you be willing to convene a summit to get both sides
    together and to discuss these problems and to try to resolve these?
        The President. Well, we've tried summits in the past, as you may
    remember. There wasn't one all that long ago where a summit was called
    and nothing happened, and as a result we had a significant intifada in
    the area.
        The only time that's appropriate for a U.S. President to call a
    summit, when it looks like something can get done. And in the meantime,
    the Secretary of State is very much involved
    in the Middle East. And I don't know if you want to call it a summit,
    but he's going to have meetings with leaders, attempting to get in place
    Resolution 1042, which the Security Council has agreed to, which will
    lead to a political settlement--if all the parties participate.
        Mr. McDonald. Mr. President, thank you,
    sir.
        The President. You're welcome. Glad you're here.
        Mr. McDonald. Thank you, sir.

    [At this point, the network took a commercial break.]

    Pressures of the Presidency

        Mr. McDonald. How do you cope with the
    pressures----
        The President. Well, I'm a man--I believe in prayer; I believe in
    exercise; I've got a great wife--balance, as they
    say. Obviously, I'm reminded of what's important in life. We've got a
    fabulous team. We've got one of the great administrations in American
    history, and it gives me great comfort to know that the advice I get is
    honest, straightforward advice from very experienced people.

    [[Page 558]]

    Aftermath of September 11 Attacks

        Mr. McDonald. Has anything surprised you
    about the pressures, having these crises--have there been any surprises
    since you came into the Oval Office?
        The President. I think the surprise was how clearly I saw what we
    needed to do after 9/11. I shouldn't say surprised, I guess. Pleased
    with how clearly I saw things. I was obviously emotional, but I knew
    what the country needed to do. And I was really pleased with the way the
    country responded.
        Mr. McDonald. How do you think America
    has changed after those terrible events of September the 11th?
        The President. Well, I think a lot of people are now taking an
    assessment about what's important in life. I hope moms and dads are
    saying, ``What can I do to be better mother or father?'' I know a lot of
    my fellow Americans have asked, ``What can we do to help fight on the
    war against terror?'' And I answer by saying, ``Love somebody. Be a good
    neighbor. Help some kid who just wonders whether the American experience
    is meant for them, or teach somebody how to read.'' In other words,
    there's a lot of small acts that help define the face of America, which
    really do contribute to standing up against evil.
        You've probably heard me speak. I truly believe that this is a fight
    against evil. These killers are evil people. They've hijacked a
    religion, and they want to commit murder in order to justify the goals
    and the ambitions of a few people.

    Situation in the Middle East

        Mr. McDonald. You understand that there
    are, sort of, different perceptions about this? For example, I heard
    after you made your latest speech about the crisis in the Middle East, a
    Palestinian spokesman said, ``Yes, but we also live under the terrorism
    of occupation.'' Do you understand that?
        The President. Sure, people have--look, my job isn't to try to
    nuance. My job is to tell people what I think. And when I think there's
    an axis of evil, I say it. I think moral clarity is important, if you
    believe in freedom. And people can make all kinds of excuses, but there
    are some truths involved.
        And one of the truths is, they're sending suicide killers in--
    because they hate Israel. That's a truth. And you can justify it any way
    you want, but nevertheless, the role of the President, as far as I'm
    concerned, is to stand up and tell the truth, and I did today. I made it
    as plain as I could. I try to speak as plainly as I can. I know people
    don't like it when I say there's evil; this is evil versus good. But
    that's not going to stop me from saying what I think is right.
        Mr. McDonald. Your Palestinian
    interlocutors will say that they--you have to balance that against the
    fact that they live, as they say, under this occupation. They also have
    increasing settlements. And there is a kind of tyranny, they say, they
    would claim----
        The President. Well, in my speech today, I recognized that they need
    to stop the building of settlements. And it is my Government that laid
    out the Tenet, and then the Mitchell plans, which both sides agreed to,
    which will lead to peace. The problem is, they haven't lived up to the
    agreement. And I'm calling on the Palestinians to live up to the
    agreement. And I'm calling on the Israelis to pull out of the occupied
    territory, the places, the cities they've occupied recently, trying to
    set up a situation where we can achieve peace. That's what I want. I
    want peace. And I believe it can happen, otherwise I wouldn't be working
    so hard on it. I'm an optimist. As you can see, the way we've got the
    Oval Office here designed, it's open, and it's optimistic, and it's
    sunny. That's what I feel about life.
        It was right in this room where Vladimir Putin came in, and I had a fantastic meeting with him
    here. Finally, we're getting rid of the cold war, where we hated each
    other. You know, if you'd been sitting in

    [[Page 559]]

    the fifties, saying, ``Can you ever imagine a U.S. President and a
    Russian President sitting here and talking like friends,'' you'd have
    said, ``Of course not. How farfetched is that?''
        That's what I used as an example today as what is possible in the
    Middle East. And I think it is possible. All of us are going to have to
    work to achieve that goal.
        Mr. McDonald. But you're not very much
    into, sort of big, set peace summits to do that?
        The President. Well, he'd better--the problem is, the American
    President, when he calls a summit, better get it right.
        Mr. McDonald. He puts his personal
    reputation on the line.
        The President. This doesn't have nothing to do with reputation. It
    has everything to do with the consequences if it fails. It's not the
    President--see, that's the problem. It's not all about the person. It's
    about the people who live in the region. If a summit fails, if the
    President puts--lays it out there and nothing happens, generally the
    status--the followup is worse than the status quo. And that's what
    Presidents must understand.
         We're dealing with people's lives and expectations. And I think
    there's a better way to achieve--what we want is peace. Someday that may
    happen, don't get me wrong. Someday you may say, ``I remember when I
    talked to old Bush, and there he is, sitting there with a big summit.''
    But now is not the time for one. I've got a different strategy.

    Note: The interview was taped at 3:07 p.m. in the library at the White
    House. In his remarks, the President referred to U.S. Special Envoy to
    the Middle East Gen. Anthony Zinni, USMC (Ret.); President Hosni Mubarak
    of Egypt; King Abdullah II of Jordan; Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi
    Arabia; Prime Minister Tony Blair and Secretary of State for Foreign and
    Commonwealth Affairs Jack Straw of the United Kingdom; Abu Zubaydah and
    Usama bin Laden, leaders of the Al Qaida terrorist organization; and
    President Vladimir Putin of Russia. The President also referred to the
    Tenet plan, the Israeli-Palestinian cease-fire and security plan of June
    13, 2001, negotiated by Director of Central Intelligence George J.
    Tenet; and the Mitchell report, the Report of the Sharm el-Sheikh Fact-
    Finding Committee, issued April 30, 2001. A tape was not available for
    verification of the content of this interview.