[Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: WILLIAM J. CLINTON (2000, Book I)]
[May 12, 2000]
[Pages 905-915]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]



Remarks in an Interview and Townhall Meeting on ABC's
``Good Morning America''
May 12, 2000

 [``Good Morning America'' cohosts Charlie Gibson and Diane Sawyer welcomed 
program participants and described the goals of the Million Mom March 
against gun violence, scheduled for May 14th in Washington, DC.]

    Charlie Gibson.  We are here in the Oval 
Office with the President, who is joining us this morning. It's nice to 
have--nice to be here. I shouldn't say nice to have you with us, since

[[Page 906]]

it's your office. Mr. President, good to see you again.
    The President.  Good to see you.

Gun Safety Legislation

    Mr. Gibson.  Diane is going to go over with the mothers, and we 
understand you will join us in there in a few moments. But we'd like to 
talk a little bit first.
    It was a year ago, Mr. President, that we were here with you with 
the students talking about gun violence. And you talked to me then about 
the hopes that you had for new gun control legislation. It hasn't 
happened. What went wrong?
    The President.  Well, nothing went wrong. We passed legislation in 
the Senate--Vice President Gore cast the 
tie-breaking vote--to require child safety locks, to ban the importation 
of large capacity ammunition clips, which would make our assault weapons 
ban much more effective, and to require background checks when handguns 
are bought at gun shows and urban flea markets, just as they are now at 
gun stores.
    It passed in the Senate; it didn't pass in the House. And frankly, I 
think it was because of the intense lobbying effort against it and the 
longstanding ability of the NRA to influence Congressmen. I think that 
that was a big part of it.
    I think, also, the label ``gun control'' is not nearly as effective 
as the specific safety measures. I mean, if I said to you, let's take 
these seatbelts out of cars and repeal the speed limits and repeal the 
requirement that drivers get licenses because it's ``car control,'' you 
might be against it, too. When you talk about the specifics, do they 
make sense or not, do they work or not, the answer is yes.
    Frankly, I still don't understand why anybody would be against these 
things. And the evidence is clear that it works.
    Mr. Gibson.  But the Congress is jammed 
up. I've got here a pile of all the gun legislation that's been proposed 
in the past year, since we were here before, and none of it has passed. 
By my count, we have more States rejecting new gun control legislation 
than have passed it. We have 15 States that have passed prohibitions on 
cities suing gun manufacturers. That hardly seems like progress.
    The President.  Well, first of all, I think you have to look at the 
fact that the States, which our Founding Fathers thought would be the 
laboratories of democracy, have seen some progress. If you look at what 
Maryland and California and Massachusetts have done--Maryland 
particularly is interesting because it is not what you would think of a 
socially or culturally liberal State, and people from very difficult 
districts passed some very tough child safety legislation. I think that 
there has been some movement at the State level.
    In Colorado, a conservative Republican Governor proposed closing the gun show loophole, couldn't pass it 
through the legislature, and they're going to put it on the ballot. It 
will be interesting to see what the people of Colorado do.
    I think that as a practical matter, until the public demonstrates 
its will on this, there may not be more substantive progress. The people 
are going to have to decide what they believe the right approach is.
    Mr. Gibson.  When we were here a year 
ago, you gave me a rather stern talking-to about the political realities 
on the issue of gun control. Isn't it fair to say that the political 
realities right now are that nothing is going to happen for this year, 
while people wait to see the results of the November election?
    The President.  I'm not sure. That is one possible outcome. It may 
be the more likely outcome. But keep in mind, you've still got bills 
that have passed the House and the Senate. Essentially what's happened 
is, though, that this is the part about Washington that drives people 
crazy. We've got a version of this bill that passed the House, a version 
of this bill that passed the Senate. And the conferees are supposed to 
get together, both parties, both Houses, come up with a bill and send it 
to me; I sign it or veto it; and then they override the veto or they 
don't, if I veto it. That's the way the system is supposed to work.
    As a practical matter, what happens is they're just not meeting, and 
because they don't want to report out a bill that, again, they can't 
label as ``gun control,'' but it will have specifics, and people either 
like it or not, and it will either pass or not. That's what's 
frustrating. It's just been stalled. And I think the fact that what's 
really important about it is closing a loophole in a background check 
law that has plainly worked to save lives in America, closing a loophole 
in an assault weapons ban that the American people overwhelmingly 
support, and putting in child trigger locks--those are the three main

[[Page 907]]

elements--it's unconscionable that it hasn't been voted out.

Million Mom March

    Mr. Gibson.  As a practical matter, 
doesn't this administration have something of a stake in Sunday's march, 
hoping that some mothers can do politically what Columbine, what a 
preschool shooting out in California, what a 6-year-old shooting another 
6-year-old didn't do, which is to create a gun control lobby as strong 
as the pro-gun lobby?
    The President.  Well, I think, as a practical matter, what we really 
have is hoping that these mothers will create a sense of awareness in 
America that this is not a debate framed the way the NRA has debated, 
gun control or not, implying that this is the beginning of a slippery 
slope to take people's guns away no matter how law abiding they are, and 
that it's about very specific, very concrete measures of prevention to 
reduce the likelihood of guns falling into the hands of children and 
criminals. That's what this is about.

2000 Elections

    Mr. Gibson.  You have made this very much 
a priority in this administration. Does it surprise you when you see the 
latest polls, Gallup poll, just out recently, indicating that a 
plurality of this country actually thinks that Governor Bush would be 
stronger on gun control and better equipped to handle the issue than the 
Vice President?
    The President.  No, because I think the public doesn't have the 
information. I don't think there's any--I think if you gave--did the 
Gallup poll give the public a test about whether--which candidate was 
for the following specific measures? I think people form general 
impressions. And the Republicans, keep in mind, until our administration 
came in, because of their tough rhetoric and their theory that the 
answer to every crime was just to put more people in jail and keep them 
there longer, and they talked about it like that, they had the 
overwhelming advantage on all crime-related issues.
    But it's not like there's no evidence here. I mean, crime has come 
down 7 years in a row--8 years in a row, now. This is the eighth year 
that crime is coming down. Partly it's due to the improved economy, but 
partly it's due to the fact that we put 100,000 police on the street, 
that we passed the Brady bill, that we passed the assault weapons, that 
we increased enforcement as well. No one can dispute the evidence.
    And so what I think there is, when the campaign really starts in 
earnest, we need to make sure that voters have all the evidence, and 
then we'll see what they say.

Gun Safety Legislation

    Mr. Gibson.  Don't you to some extent 
make the NRA's case when you say that, though? They say, ``Enforce 
existing laws; you're not doing enough of enforcing existing laws.'' And 
yet, you've got murder down 25 percent since '93, gun crime down 35 
percent since '92, violent crime overall down 27 percent. That's done 
with a good economy, better policing, and not necessarily such stronger 
gun control laws.
    The President.  That includes the Brady bill, the assault weapons 
ban, a ban on cop-killer bullets. They were against all those things. 
When we passed the Brady bill--keep in mind, the Brady law, which 
requires the background checks, was vetoed in the previous 
administration of President Bush. We passed it again, and I signed it. 
And what did they say? The same crowd here who is against closing the 
gun show loophole, what did they say then? Then they said, because they 
were making a different argument, because they're against all prevention 
measures, they said then, ``Oh, this Brady law won't make any difference 
because criminals do not buy guns at gun stores; they buy guns at these 
gun shows or flea markets or out of the back of pickup trucks on 
streets. It won't make any difference.''
    Okay, now it's 2000, and since we passed the Brady bill, over 
500,000 felons, fugitives, and stalkers have been unable to get 
handguns. There is no question that they used gun stores, and no 
question that the Brady bill made a difference, and no question it would 
be even better if all handgun sales were subject to background checks, 
including the ones at gun shows.
    Now, so we're not arguing about that. If it's a prevention measure 
designed to keep more guns out of the hands of criminals, they're 
against it. If it's punishment for any kind of gun violation, they're 
for it. They say that this is the one area of American life where there 
must be no prevention and where people who own guns must be subject to 
no reasonable efforts to construct a system of prevention.

[[Page 908]]

    This is not gun control in the sense that we're taking people's guns 
away from them who make the decision that they'd be safer or better off 
to have guns or that they want to engage in a wide range of lawful 
activities.
    And that's really--they've been working this for a long time, and 
they're good at it. They just say the same things over and over again. 
But why were they against this banning cop-killer bullets? Why were they 
against the Brady bill in the first place? Why were they against the 
assault weapons ban? What's wrong with banning the importation of large 
capacity ammunition clips? Let's get out of the name calling and 
labeling and get right down to specifics. Is this going to reduce crime 
or not in America? Is it going to make Americans safer? I think it is.

Million Mom March

    Mr. Gibson.  Let's get to the specifics 
of why the mothers are here to march. If you'd join us across the hall, 
we've got a number of mothers there anxious to talk to you.
    Diane, let me go to you over in the Roosevelt Room.
    Diane Sawyer.  That's right, Charlie. 
Sitting in this room, I've noticed a lot of women nodding heads and 
shaking heads and bursting to ask questions. I'll give you a preview, 
just one question; what's it going to be?

 [At this point, participant Linda Halpin asked 
why gun safety legislation had been held up in Congress for so long. 
Following a commercial break, Ms. Sawyer stated 
that the women assembled in the Roosevelt Room represented many sides of 
the issue, and some had personal stories of gun violence. Ms. Halpin 
then explained that her son was shot and killed last Mother's Day, and 
she asked the President what he could do to prevent such tragedies.]

    The President.  Well, first of all, the short answer is I'm going to 
do everything I can. In our country's history, as far as I know, no 
administration before ours has taken any kind of systematic, aggressive 
approach to this--except after Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy 
were killed in 1968, President Johnson tried to do something. He tried 
to pass--he did pass a very weak background check law, not as strong as 
he wanted, and he tried to pass licensing. And since then, until we came 
in and began with the Brady bill and the assault weapons ban, no one had 
done anything.
    I have done as many townhall meetings as I could. I have lobbied the 
Congress as hard as I could. I've also taken a lot of executive action 
to strengthen the enforcement of the laws and to give us some options we 
didn't have before. But the truth is, in the United States, we have by 
far the highest gun death rate of any advanced country in the world and 
by far the highest accidental gun death rate in the world, because we 
have taken the position that any sort of sensible prevention measures 
here should not be passed, we--I say, we, as a people--and I think 
that's the wrong position.
    So I've tried to change what would happen. I thought surely after 
Columbine we would get some action. The Senate passed, 51-50--the Vice 
President cast the tie-breaking vote--I 
think, a good bill that would aggressively move us forward. But there 
are things we can do at the executive level without congressional action 
to continue to increase the effectiveness of the enforcement of the laws 
we have. And we're doing that.
    But we don't have authority to require, for example, background 
checks on people that buy guns at gun shows or at flea markets. We have 
an assault weapons ban, but people can import large capacity ammunition 
clips and then adjust guns here and turn them into assault weapons. We 
have a few States that require safety locks on guns for kids. That's one 
thing that not many people talk about, but let me just say, the 
accidental rate of death from guns of children under 15 in the United 
States is 9 times higher than the accidental rate in the other countries 
combined.
    So I am doing everything I can do. I am not a dictator. The Congress 
believes--I'll just tell you the truth--the Congress believes--ask 
Congresswoman McCarthy; she's paid a pretty 
high price for this--they believe that if they vote with the NRA, they 
will not be defeated. They believe if they vote with you, they may be 
defeated.
    This is not complicated. You have to understand, they believe that 
as long--you know when Charlie Rose asked me 
about the poll--I mean, Charlie Gibson asked 
me about the poll--Charlie Rose normally asks me about other things--
asked me about the poll in there. You have to understand what they 
believe. They believe that as long as they can turn it into a gun

[[Page 909]]

control, gun control, gun control debate and stay away from the 
specifics, they can scare a bunch of guys into thinking that they're 
going to lose their guns and that more people will vote against them for 
voting for gun control measures, if it's called that instead of the 
specifics, than vote for it.
    Now look, I know you're heartbroken. I'm doing everything I can. Let 
me remind you that Mr. LaPierre, the 
representative of the NRA, said that I wanted people to die so I could 
make an issue out of this. That's what he said. Now, I can only tell you 
that I wake up every day thinking about this. I am heartbroken about 
this. And I am frustrated, because they do well if they can turn this 
into a gun control battle. We do well when we turn this into a specifics 
battle.
    The thing that the mothers coming here will do, I hope, is to make 
this a voting issue. But if it's not, they're going to keep winning. And 
you just have to realize that.
    Mr. Gibson.  Mr. President, I want to 
interrupt you for just a second. We're supposed to take a commercial 
break here at this point, but we're going to keep going. And we just 
want to tell our local stations we want to keep going--because you want 
to follow up, I know.

 [Ms. Halpin said she needed accountability for 
her son's death and asked again what would the President do on the issue 
in his remaining days in office.]

    The President.  Where are you from?
    Ms. Halpin.  I'm from New York, sir. Howard 
Beach.
    The President.  Well, I'm going to do my best to pass this 
legislation, and I'm going to do my best to make sure that we're 
enforcing the existing laws, and I'm going to do my best to find more 
people like you to tell your stories in the hope that more people in the 
Congress will be emboldened to do what, I believe, a majority of them 
think is the right thing to do.
    This has been a big issue with me, and I have been very frustrated 
in my inability to get more done. We did--we got the Brady bill and the 
assault weapons ban through. I just want to tell you this. This is a 
very--you just need to know this. We have some people on the other side 
of this issue today, so I want to compliment them.
    I got the first Congress I had to pass the Brady bill and the 
assault weapons ban, and at least a dozen of them, maybe as many as 20 
of them in the House lost their seats because they did that, trying to 
help people like you--because the NRA beat their brains out, because 
they went home to their districts and told people they were going to 
take their guns away. Now, 7 years later, none of them have lost their 
guns, and we've got a safer America. And so now they're fighting the new 
list of prevention measures. But you need to know what happened.
    I know this hurts you. And I'm telling you, we're--ask 
Congresswoman McCarthy--we've been up here fighting 
this for all these years, and it is very, very frustrating.
    Ms. Halpin.  It still won't bring our 
children back.
    The President.  It won't bring your children back. But I'll tell you 
what will save more children, is if they believe people like you will 
mobilize other people to change the voting behavior of the American 
public. That is what will bring--[applause]. That's the truth.
    I know this sounds so cruel in the face of your human loss. You have 
to understand how things work here. Look, I'm not running for anything. 
I'm doing what I think is right. I have taken on these facts; I have 
done everything I know to do. And you heard what Charlie said, gun 
violence is down 30 percent, gun crime, since I took office--35 percent. 
The crime rate is down, actually, now to about a 27-year low. The murder 
rate is down to a 30-year low.
    We are making it better. But this is still way too dangerous a 
country because we take the position that when it comes to these issues, 
this is the only area of our national life where we will not have 
prevention. Now, that's really what--that is the truth. And it breaks my 
heart, too.

Gun Safety and 2000 Elections

 [Ms. Sawyer cited a newspaper report that Gov. 
George W. Bush of Texas proposed to 
distribute free trigger locks if he is elected President. Ms. Sawyer 
asked if the President would support such a program. ]

    The President.  It's a good idea, but why is he doing that?
    Ms. Halpin.  And why now?
    The President.  No, no, wait--yes, that's good--that's also good. 
Why now? Because he's running for President. 
That's okay. That's what

[[Page 910]]

elections are for. People get better ideas all the time. We can't hold 
people--anybody who wants to join and start doing things should be 
complimented. So that's fine.
    But I think you have to understand what's going on here. There was a 
report in the newspaper last week that a lobbyist for the NRA said they 
would have an office in the White House if Governor Bush is elected. And they were, I think, the first or second 
biggest contributor to the annual Republican Party gala last week. So he 
wants to move away from that image; he wants people not to think that he 
won't do anything, that basically the NRA will control policy on this--
which they will if he wins. And if he comes out and gives away gun 
trigger locks, then he doesn't have to explain why we're still importing 
large capacity ammunition clips and why he doesn't want to close the gun 
show loophole.
    I know you have people here from Texas who believe that their 
concealed weapons law is very effective. I know that, and we could talk 
about that if you like. But the truth is that everybody is going to want 
to look like they're doing something, but the most effective measures 
are opposed by most of the people in the Republican Party. I wish that 
weren't true. We do have some support from them, and I thank those who 
are supporting us.

State Concealed Weapons Laws

 [Ms. Sawyer said that representatives of the 
Second Amendment Sisters, who planned a countermarch to the Million Mom 
March, were also present. She introduced Texas State Representative 
Suzanna Gratia Hupp, an advocate of 
concealed weapons laws. However, there were technical difficulties with 
the videotape about her which was to be shown.]

    Mr. Gibson.  Well, Suzanna, where are 
you? Why don't you give me a basic of what happened in that restaurant.

 [Ms. Hupp described the subject of the 
videotape, an incident in Texas where a man drove his truck through a 
restaurant window and then shot 23 people.]

    The President.  I remember that.

 [Ms. Hupp said she had stopped her 
former practice of carrying a concealed weapon illegally out of fear of 
losing her chiropractic practicing license. She stated that her parents 
were killed by the man in the truck and that laws against carrying a 
concealed weapon had left her defenseless in that situation.]

    Mr. Gibson.  And you are now in the 
statehouse of Texas?
    Ms. Hupp.  Yes, sir, I am.
    Mr. Gibson.  And there is now a concealed 
weapons law in the State of Texas.
    Ms. Hupp.  Yes.
    The President.  Okay. First of all, let's concede something. 
She might be right about this. That is, 
on this particular incidence, if there had been someone in that 
restaurant who knew how to use a gun and was lawfully carrying it, for 
example, an off-duty police officer or somebody--or in a State with a 
concealed weapon law, someone who was properly trained and had it, maybe 
they could have stopped this horrible incident.
    There is no law that covers every set of facts. However, what the 
truth is, in most instances is, is that a lot of people have guns who 
don't know how to use them. And the accidental death rate in America 
is--again I will say this--9 times higher than that in the next 25 
biggest countries combined. So it's a question of what makes you safest 
overall.
    But my view of the concealed weapons law is, if a State wants to 
have one, what do people have to prove to carry a concealed weapon? How 
well have they been trained? How likely are they to avoid doing 
something crazy, so that they're only used in cases like this?
    But the second thing is, whether you've got a concealed weapons law 
or not should have nothing to do with whether you close the loophole in 
the background check, whether you ban the large capacity ammunition 
clips, and whether you require child trigger locks, including those that 
are built into the guns, assuming they're feasible.
    She may be right about this, about 
this example. But I don't think that example is an argument against our 
legislation.

Gun Safety Legislation

 [Ms. Sawyer noted that the Second Amendment 
Sisters said there was no evidence of a correlation between increased 
gun control laws and a decrease in violence, using England as an 
example.]

    The President.  Wait, wait a minute--an increase of violence from a 
very low base.

[[Page 911]]

    Ms. Sawyer.  From a low base.
    The President.  From a low base. In America, I will say again--
forget about the crimes; just look at the accidental gun rate. In 
America, the death rate of children under 15 from accidental gun 
violence is--I will say again--9 times higher than that in the next 24 
biggest industrial countries put together.
    So we say, in order to avoid inconveniencing people who have 
firearms or might want to get firearms, we will not have sensible 
prevention measures, because it scares everybody because we'll call it 
gun control. Now, that's a decision we've made as a society.
    Look, there is no perfect system. The level of violence will depend 
upon the kind of people you have in your society, the condition of the 
economy, the way the children are raised, the values of the society, the 
values of the community, the effectiveness of law enforcement--there are 
many factors involved here. And there is no perfect system. But there is 
no question that if we want to become the safest big country on Earth, 
without impinging on our freedom, we will have to do more in the area of 
prevention.
    National Rifle Association Board Member Susan Howard.  Excuse me, could I ask a question, if it's all right?
    The President.  Sure.
    Ms. Sawyer.  And we should point out, you 
are Susan Howard.
    Ms. Howard.  Yes, I am. I would like to ask 
this lady----
    Ms. Sawyer.  Let's tell people, Susan, who 
you are, those who don't know you. You've seen her in the ads for the 
NRA.
    Ms. Howard.  Yes, for the child safety. Was 
your son killed accidentally with a gun, or was it a crime?
    Ms. Halpin.  It was a crime.
    Ms. Howard.  Mr. President, I really have 
to ask you something. You just made the statement that just sent shivers 
up and down my spine. You said, let's forget the crimes and----
    The President.  No----
    Ms. Howard.  No, no, no, sir, excuse me----
    The President.  This is the way the NRA operates.
    Ms. Howard.  No, sir, it's not. No, sir----
    The President.  All I did is--I don't want to forget the crimes----
    Ms. Howard.  No, sir, you said, let's 
forget the crime and talk about the accidents--because there is nobody 
that----
    The President.  You know that's not what I meant, to forget the 
crime, Ms. Howard.
    Ms. Howard.  But that's what you said, Mr. 
President. And I guess this is----
    The President.  Well, what I--I was making the prevention----
    Ms. Howard.  No, sir, let me finish.
    The President.  All right.
    Ms. Howard.  Please, may I finish, because 
you have a bully pulpit. And I know every single person here in this 
room, the majority of them, are really for you, and they love you, and 
they trust you, and they believe you. But we are right now living in a 
country, sir, where our children--it's not how many gun laws you can 
continue to pass. It's about my grandchildren; it's about their 
children; it's about your daughter and whether she ever has any children 
or not. Bottom line, the issue is about are we ever, ever, ever, ever 
going to look at the children and say, that's the focus? Because right 
now what this is all about is the children have been pushed out of the 
side, they do not exist right now----
    Mr. Gibson.  Get to the question.

Gun Safety Education

    Ms. Howard.  No, what I'm saying is, if 
we--you are the education President, am I correct? Are you the education 
President? That is what you have built your----
    The President.  Well, that's what the teachers said yesterday when 
they all came here.
    Ms. Howard.  I agree, but I think that's 
what you built your platform on. What is it about educating children and 
gun safety that you have a problem with?
    The President.  Nothing. Now, wait a minute. Charlie, I have to answer this. On many occasions--not one, 
many occasions--I have complimented, as President, in the face of all 
the criticism I've gotten from the NRA, on many occasions I have 
complimented the NRA on the gun safety legislation, efforts they've 
made, the gun safety education programs. I have talked about what they 
did when I was Governor. I've also complimented them on some other 
things they did when I was Governor to reduce violence--but wait a 
minute, let me finish.
    I think the laws should be more vigorously enforced. I have asked 
for more resources to

[[Page 912]]

do that. Gun enforcement is up since I've been President. But I've asked 
for resources to do more.
    Look, here's my argument. Let me just be very careful here. I do not 
believe that America has done enough on the prevention side. And I do 
not believe this problem can be addressed solely by stiffer punishment, 
by education, and in the case of the Texas, if a State wants to have a 
concealed weapons law. I believe we must do more to try to keep guns out 
of the hands of criminals and away from children in the first place. 
That's all I said. That's my only position.
    But I think the NRA, the education programs, the gun safety 
education programs, are good and would do a lot of good.
    Mr. Gibson.  Susan, let me address this. 
Marjorie Hardy is here----
    Ms. Sawyer.  Marjorie Hardy of Muhlenberg 
College. She is a psychologist----
    Mr. Gibson. ----and assistant professor 
who worked--Marjorie, if I quote you correctly, you worked with your 
children on education over and over again, correct?
    Ms. Hardy.  That's correct----
    Mr. Gibson.  And you used those children 
as part of an experiment that we did on ``20/20.''
    Ms. Sawyer. ----which we did at ``20/20.'' 
And we also had the Eddie Eagle education program come in. And we were 
talking with kids about how--what you do when you see a gun in the room, 
specifically. And they all sat there and nodded, yes, they got it, you 
get an adult, you don't touch it, you don't touch it--including 
Marjorie's son, Matthew, who had grown up with nothing but education 
against guns.
    I'm going to roll the clip. And what happened with Marjorie's son 
was a traditional--or typical with what happened with the other kids as 
well. And we found that the education, by and large, didn't work with 
this age kid. Here is Marjorie's son, Matthew.
    The President.  How old is your son?
    Ms. Sawyer.  He was age 4 at the time.

 [A videotape was shown.]

    Ms. Sawyer.  And I want to point out, 
Marjorie, that the kids knew these were not toy guns. You could hear 
them saying, ``This is a real gun,'' and reacting to the fact that it 
was a real gun. Anything you want to add?

 [Ms. Hardy asked what evidence the NRA had 
to prove their Eddie Eagle gun safety education program was effective. 
Ms. Howard responded that the NRA did not claim 
to have the only answer to the gun violence problem, but that education 
was an imperative.]

Parental Responsibility

    Ms. Sawyer. ----I engage the President on 
this issue, if I can, this question of parental responsibility and 
parental role in general. If I can just move to that. When you talk 
about everybody being responsible, the question really becomes, are 
there just too many guns out there for parents to be able to maintain 
control?
    Participants.  Yes!
    Ms. Sawyer.  And what do you do about your 
neighbors? And I'm going to show you a tape, and then we're going to 
meet Lori Smith, because this is the story of what happened to her 
daughter, Shannon.
    Let's see if we have the tape.

 [There were technical difficulties with the videotape.]

    Ms. Sawyer.  I'm going to go to Lori and 
let you tell us what happened.

 [Ms. Smith explained that her 14-year-old 
daughter was talking on the telephone in her backyard last June when a 
bullet fell from the sky and killed her instantly. Ms. Smith noted 
people in the Phoenix, AZ, area where she lives often fire guns randomly 
into the air in celebration or for other reasons.]

    Ms. Sawyer.  And random accidental 
shootings, as we know, take place by the thousands all the time. Mr. 
President, what about the guns out there?
    The President.  Well, here's a case--of course, that probably is 
illegal. And if it isn't, it should be.
    Ms. Smith.  It was only a misdemeanor two----
    The President.  Did they ever find out who did it?

 [Ms. Smith said that the shooter was not found, 
but she fought to elevate the offense to a felony, with great opposition 
from the NRA. She noted that the law changing the crime to a felony 
offense was signed April 3.]

[[Page 913]]

    The President.  There's a case--let me just say this. First, I'm 
very sorry about what happened. It's a terrible thing. And I think what 
you did in the legislature was a good thing. But 
I think there's a case where people really do need to be sensitized to 
the fact that bullets that go up will come down. I think there are some 
of these things where a public campaign to educate people would make a 
difference. And that's one I think would make a difference.
    The larger question for me, going back to this question of whether 
there are too many guns in the society--I think that sometimes there's a 
lot of loose talk about this. We ought to talk specifically about what 
we mean. A lot of these--most of the guns in America are in the hands of 
hunters and sports people and law enforcement people, are those guns--
most of the guns that are in those people's hands, I think, they're 
safe, and they're going to be properly used.
    But there's a huge sort of sea of guns that's out there just kind of 
flowing around. And that's one of the reasons I think that all the sales 
have to be checked, there has to be a background check on all the sales; 
and one of the reasons I support these gun buyback programs that a lot 
of cities are doing. And we're trying to put more money into it now, as 
well, because--[inaudible]--are law-abiding citizens, and you've got as 
many of these loose weapons as you can off the street.
    Is your film on now? Are they trying to get it on now?
    Ms. Sawyer.  No, no, I think we've got you 
in an echo chamber there for a moment.
    We're going to take a break, in fact, Mr. President. And when we 
come back, we can explore more issues of, do we hold the parents 
accountable? To what extent? In what ways?
    The President.  Yes, I think you should. I think you should.

 [Following a commercial break, Mr. Gibson 
asked if representatives on either side of the issue opposed laws 
enforcing parental responsibility.]

    Participant.  I have a caveat to it, though.
    Mr. Gibson.  All right, but basically not 
opposed. Because I want to get the question to the President. People 
seem to believe in this bill, and yet it's a law in only 17 States, and 
in only 3 States is it a felony.
    The President.  And we couldn't get it in the legislation here. 
Representative McCarthy just pointed out 
that that was the one provision in my bill I couldn't get in either the 
Senate or the House version. So I think maybe--this is something that is 
encouraging to me, because what you saw on that film with those young 
children, below a certain age you can't expect an education program to 
work; you have to keep the guns away from the kids.
    I think that's something we could all agree on, we could get done 
here. That's very important. And I think the adults should be held 
responsible.
    Mr. Gibson.  And yet when you proposed it 
on a national level, neither House or Senate----
    The President.  In the Kayla Rollins case, there is no question in 
my mind that if there had been responsible adults in that home, that 
child would be alive today.
    Ms. Sawyer.  That is the Michigan case, we 
should point out, where a 6-year-old boy killed a 6-year-old classmate.

Gun Registration

    Mr. Gibson.  A question here. Your name?

 [Donna Dee-Thomases, organizer of the 
Million Mom March, said that education was important but that licensing 
firearms, as one would an automobile, was equally important so that guns 
used in crimes could be more easily traced.]

    Mr. Gibson.  Comment on the 
registration----
    The President.  I think--let me back up and say, we cannot pass, in 
this Congress, licensing of handgun owners, which I have proposed. I 
think when people buy a handgun, they ought to pass a Brady background 
check, have a gun safety education program, and have a photo ID license, 
just like when you have a car. That's what I believe.
    And the registration of guns, the main virtue of that would be that 
you could trace them when they were used in a crime. If I steal your 
car, Charlie, and I drive it down to Maryland and rob a bank, and I 
leave it in a shopping center parking lot, and it's found, because the 
registration is on the National Crime Information Center computer 
system, you can find out within literally 30 seconds after it's found 
what happened to your car.
    But we can't even pass a bill to close the loophole in the Brady law 
when we know the Brady law has kept 500,000 felons, fugitives, and

[[Page 914]]

stalkers from getting handguns in the first place. So we can't pass that 
now. But should it be done? Well, of course it should be done.

Gun Safety Locks

 [Following a commercial break, Ms. Sawyer 
asked how many participants opposed gun safety locks.]

    Participant.  Safety locks, or a law that requires safety locks?
    Ms. Sawyer.  Okay. How many of you are for 
mandatory safety locks? And how many of you are for only voluntary? All 
right, we almost have a consensus issue there. At least safety locks 
should be on guns, one way or the other.
    Mr. Gibson.  You have a comment over here.

Lawsuits Against the Gun Industry

 [Johnny Mae Robinson from New York 
stated that her son was killed last year and asked if cities would 
continue to have the right to sue the gun industry.]

    The President.  Well, I think we should. And we supported the 
development of that lawsuit. But there is a move on by the gun 
manufacturers and their allies to try to get State legislatures to 
prohibit cities from being able to bring such suits, and their theory 
is--I'll make their case for them real quick--they say, if a gun is a 
legal product, it's wrong to be able to sue the person who makes it.
    The other side of the argument is, there is--if you look at the way 
the guns are marketed and sold, a relatively large percentage of guns 
used in crimes and used illegally are sold by a relatively small number 
of the gun dealers in America, and there is some evidence that the 
people who distribute the guns know that and do it anyway. And that's 
basically the argument behind the lawsuit.
    And lawsuits are supposed to find facts, and this is the fact-
finding process we're going to find, to see if a change in these 
policies, again, would make us safer. That's what it's about. Do I think 
they ought to have the right to bring the suit? I do, and I have 
supported it, and I've done what I could to protect it.

Trigger Locks

    Ms. Sawyer.  On that front, Mr. President, 
I'm going to give the microphone to Lynn Dix, who has a story to tell.

 [Ms. Dix said that she was suing a gun 
manufacturer because her son would still be alive if the gun that killed 
him had been equipped with an integral trigger lock or load indicator. 
She concluded that she could not understand opposition to prevention 
measures.]

    The President.  I think one of the most troubling things that I've 
seen in this whole episode is, a lot of the people who are opposed to 
what I want to do say these things should be voluntary, trigger locks 
should be voluntary--let me just finish, because I'm where you are on 
this. So Smith & Wesson comes along and they say, ``Okay, we'll put the 
trigger locks in, and we'll stop dealing with bad dealers, and we'll do 
other things which we think will help.'' And they didn't lose a lawsuit 
to do it; they came in on the front end and said they were going to do 
it.
    And there was the awfullest reaction to them. They were treated like 
they had betrayed the country, like they had committed treason. And 
other gun manufacturers and everybody, they gave them a gut shot. It was 
unbelievable what happened, the reaction to them. And this is something 
where a free corporation decided they would change their policy in ways 
that plainly would make America a safer place. And the reward they got 
was having the other gun manufacturers and some of their allies just try 
to literally take their heads off. And I think it was wrong. I think 
what they did was the right thing.

Conclusion

 [Noting the President's earlier statement that he thinks about this 
issue more than any other, Mr. Gibson invited 
him to summarize the meeting.]

    The President.  Domestic--yes, because it's the one we have made the 
least--we have both made the most progress on, but we've got a long way 
to go. And I think about it also because I grew up in a culture where 
more people thought like the minority here in this room who are in 
dissent.
    Last weekend I was up in the Ozark Mountains, and I stopped at this 
little country store in the middle of the Ozarks. The last time I was 
there, 10 years ago, it was because I was out on a turkey hunt. Most of 
the people I spent time with were either, if they weren't members of the 
NRA--when I was hunting, you

[[Page 915]]

know, duck hunting, or whatever--they had favorable opinions. As I said, 
when I was Governor, I had both good and one horrible experience with 
the NRA.
    But my view of this is, I think we all have to realize we don't--
none of us claim that any of our positions are absolute and that we can 
make a perfect world and nobody will ever get hurt, no bad person will 
ever get ahold of a gun, nothing wrong will ever happen. The people who 
are coming here to Washington, including many people in this room who 
have lost members of their families, understand that not every law 
they're advocating might have saved the particular life of the 
particular loved one they lost. Their loss got them interested in this, 
and they began to ask themselves: How can we make a safer country? How 
can we save more children like my children? How can we save more loved 
ones like my loved one?
    I think, in fairness, the people who oppose them are good people. 
They really believe, I think--I don't know if they'll say it, but maybe 
after I'm gone they will--I think they think we have some--we either are 
weak on enforcement or we have some dark hidden agenda to take guns away 
from everybody, including lawful gun owners. And they think that would 
change America forever for the worse.
    I don't have that agenda. I have never proposed any such rule. What 
I've tried to do, I'll say again, is I think that this area of our 
national life is an area where--to go back to the very first question I 
was asked--where I think we should not rest until we think we have done 
everything we can to prevent bad things from happening in the first 
place.
    Every other area of our national life, we first choose prevention. 
Then if things go haywire, we punish. This should not be the area where 
we say, ``Because we're worried about people doing something someday 
that's bad, we're not going to have prevention; we'll just start with 
punishment. But we'll be for education, but we'll start with 
punishment.'' That's my whole take on this.
    I think we could do a lot more on prevention, make it a lot safer 
country, and achieve the objectives of the Million Mom March, which is 
that all these women that are here, they want fewer stories like theirs. 
That's my own take on this.
    So I just wanted to put this into context. I want you all to talk to 
each other when I leave. I've talked too much here. I learn more when I 
listen.
    Thank you very much.
    Mr. Gibson.  Mr. President, thank you 
very much.
    The President.  Thank you all very much.
    Ms. Sawyer.  Thanks for letting us stay in 
the house while you're away. [Laughter]
    The President.  It's your house, not mine. I'm just passing through. 
[Laughter]

 Note:  The interview segment of the program, entitled ``GMA Live at the 
White House: Moms & Guns,'' began at 7 a.m. in the Oval Office. The 
townhall meeting segment originated from the Roosevelt Room at the White 
House. In his remarks, the President referred to Gov. Bill F. Owens of 
Colorado; Representative Carolyn McCarthy; news talk show host Charlie 
Rose; and Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president, National Rifle 
Association.