[Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: WILLIAM J. CLINTON (2000, Book I)]
[March 10, 2000]
[Pages 433-438]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]
Interview With Sam Donaldson of ABC's ``This Week''
March 10, 2000
Gun Safety Legislation
Mr. Donaldson. Mr. President, thanks very much for letting us come
over and talk to you today.
The President. You're welcome, Sam.
Mr. Donaldson. You know, among your top legislative priorities,
everyone understands, is gun control. You want trigger safety locks; you
want a 3-day waiting period for the sale at gun shows; you want photo
ID's, among other things. Going to be tough to get?
The President. It's tough to get. We were able to get the Brady bill
passed in '93 and the assault weapons ban in '94. And unfortunately,
several of the Members who voted for those were defeated because they
did. But it's a safer country because of that. We've had half a million
people who couldn't buy handguns because they were felons, fugitives, or
stalkers, and we've got the gun death rate down to a 30-year low.
So I think nearly everybody who has looked at it thinks we ought to
close the gun show loophole, require child safety locks on the guns, and
ban the importation of these large ammunition clips. I hope we can do
that.
Mr. Donaldson. The NRA says that the gun manufacturers have trigger
locks now. They say
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all of the guns being manufactured in this country, the handguns, have
the trigger locks. So what's the big deal?
The President. They don't all, actually; most of them do now. We've
had good--we've worked with a lot of the gun manufacturers, and they
deserve a lot of credit. For the first time, they really showed some
genuine independence from the NRA line that nothing ever needs to be
done, ever. And they came up with the gun--the child trigger locks.
What our legislation would do would be to require the remaining
manufacturers to do it. I would also like to see them make those
available to retrofit guns, because a lot of people who have guns now in
their homes would like to buy them, would like to protect them in that
way. But I think that it would be important.
But closing the gun show loophole is really important because a lot
of people who now know they will be checked in gun stores can go to the
urban flea markets or to the gun shows and buy a gun and have no
background check whatever. And I think it's a big mistake.
Mr. Donaldson. Well, of course the NRA says, ``We're for that. We're
for an instant check at gun shows.'' And they say, ``The Congress
appropriated money for you to put into the system so that the insta-
check, just like our credit cards, can go through.'' And they say, ``Why
hasn't he done it?''
The President. Well, not all the records are subject to insta-check.
For example, we offered, by the way--most of their allies in Congress
want a 24-hour, not a 72-hour waiting period at gun shows. And there's
something to be said for that if it's a weekend show and the people are
moving on to somewhere else, and all that. So what we offered them was,
okay, 24 hours for every one you can check within 24 hours, but over 90
percent of them you can check in 24 hours. But for those you can't check
because of some problem with it, we ought to be able to hold them up to
3 days, because the ones that don't check out within 24 hours are 20
times more likely to be rejected because of a problem in the background.
So I think we can work this out. You know, when I brought the
Congress in there the other day, the Republican leader in the House, Mr.
Hyde, and the Democratic leader, Mr.
Conyers, had competing proposals that were
much closer together than the rhetoric of the debate would suggest. So
I'm still hoping we can work this out.
I think it's fine to let the ones go in 24 hours if you can do the
check. But if there is some problem with the records, getting the
records, there ought to be some provision to deposit the gun in a
neutral place, like the local sheriff's office or something, and finish
the check.
Mr. Donaldson. When it comes to photo ID's, the NRA says what they
say of a lot of your proposals. That is, the criminals are not going to
line up; the criminals are not going to come in and say, ``Take my
picture; here's my picture.'' It's the law-abiding citizen that you're
going to penalize, who is not going to misuse that gun, with all of this
stuff.
The President. First of all, under my proposal, they would only do
it as they buy new handguns, where they would get a photo ID license for
showing that you passed a background check and they'd taken a safety
course.
Now, therefore that would make it even less likely that people with
criminal backgrounds would try to buy handguns. And I think over the
long run, licensing handgun owners is no more unreasonable than
licensing people that drive cars, licensing people that do any number of
other things, licensing people who want to go hunting or fishing. I
don't think there's a thing in the world wrong with it, and I think it
will help make us a safer society.
Mr. Donaldson. I can't help but remember the little dust-up you had
with my colleague Charlie Gibson, who said, ``Well, how about
registration? I mean, why aren't you for that?'' Have you changed your
mind about that since Kayla Rolland and these other terrible tragedies?
The President. Well, one of the things that I think--the argument
for registration, of course, is that it would make it easier to trace
these guns through their various incarnations, and I think you can make
a strong argument for it. What I have said is that--look, I can't even
pass a bill closing the gun show loophole through this Congress. If the
people want more done, I think that should be heavily debated in this
Presidential election.
The Vice President and Governor
Bush are from dramatically different
positions on the whole issue of guns, and I think it ought to be a big
issue in the Presidential elections, so--because it's one of the things
that will determine the shape of 21st century America--how we
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handle safety, whether we keep bringing crime down.
But right now, I think it will be a great thing if we can close the
gun show loophole, ban the big ammunition clips, require the child
safety locks, and require licensing for new handgun owners, including
photo ID's and Brady background checks and a training course, safety
training course.
Mr. Donaldson. But, of course the gun that killed Kayla Rolland, I
think it was a .32. Apparently, it had been in the home, for some time,
of the little boy who used it. None of this would have stopped that.
The President. Well, one thing that might do something that--was
another provision that I asked the Congress to pass--that I asked them
again to pass--which is to impose upon adults some responsibility for
gun crimes committed by young children if the adults knowingly or
recklessly permitted the child to get ahold of the gun. I think that
should be a part of the law.
Now, some people say, ``Oh, we shouldn't federalize the criminal
laws; the States ought to do this.'' About 17 States have. So what I
would--maybe if they don't want to do that, we ought to give some States
some incentives to adopt these laws on their own. But it is wrong for
adults to leave guns lying around that 6-year-olds can use to kill other
6-year-olds or to kill themselves, which is what most normally happens.
If people are going to have handguns in their homes, they should be
rigorously secured and protected. And if they don't have these child
trigger locks because they bought them before the child trigger locks
were provided, they ought to have to lock them up someplace where the
kids can't reach.
In addition--we're talking mostly now about killing. But the
accidental gun death rate of children under 15 is 9 times higher in the
United States--9 times higher--than that of the next 24 biggest
industrial countries combined. So I think there ought to be some
responsibility on adults to keep these guns away from children. And that
would make a difference.
Juvenile Gun Offenders
Mr. Donaldson. By the way, the last time you and I talked about this
was after Jonesboro, and one of those shooters there was, I think, 11
years of age. Now we have a child 6 years of age. What should we do
about that child, that little kid?
The President. Well, first, I think that what happens to this child
in terms of custody--who has custody over this child; where is this
child going to go--ought to be very carefully debated. Apparently, he
was in miserable circumstances. I think that in addition to that, he's
clearly below the age of criminal responsibility.
Mr. Donaldson. We can't punish that 6-year-old, can we?
The President. No, but he--human nature being what it is, he will
probably wind up punishing himself as time goes on and he comes to
realize what he's done.
Mr. Donaldson. And do you think people, as he grows up, will point
at him and say, ``That was the boy who shot that little 6-year-old many
years ago''?
The President. If they know. But even if they don't, he'll know.
He'll know. And one of two things will happen, unless he's very
fortunate. Either he will grow up with no conscience because he won't be
able to live with it, and then he'll repeat bad acts, or he'll grow up
consumed with guilt for something that was beyond his ability to
understand when he was 6. So that child is going to need a lot of help
and needs to be in a more constructive upbringing.
But look, all of our sympathies are with the child that was killed
and with her family and to try and prevent that. But the idea that 6-
year-olds can get ahold of guns is outrageous, and I think the adults
should be held responsible in some way.
President's Experience With Guns
Mr. Donaldson. By the way, do you own a gun today? You used to, I
know.
The President. Yes, but I don't have them here in the White House. I
have owned--when I was a boy, I had a .22, when I was 12. And then I had
a shotgun. And I've owned a handgun or two that have been given to me.
But I've never kept them in the residence where my daughter slept.
Mr. Donaldson. Do you still shoot them today?
The President. No. When--I've gone hunting a few times since I've
been President, but I've always just gone with friends and borrowed a
shotgun when I got there.
Mr. Donaldson. Recently?
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The President. When was the last time I went duck hunting? A couple
of years ago, I guess.
Mr. Donaldson. Well, we started by----
The President. Let me say that, you know, I grew up in this culture.
I've never called for banning guns, banning hunting. I've never been
against sport shooting. I believe that people ought to have the right to
do these things. I even had a good relationship with the NRA at one time
when I was Governor. They did a lot of good things in my State. They
helped train people in gun safety courses, young hunters, for example.
They helped to resolve property disputes in rural areas of my State,
where we were worried about people hunting in various areas.
I just think that their knee-jerk reaction to any gun safety measure
is wrong. That's what I think is wrong. We can't pretend that America
can have no prevention, that the only answer here is just to find
whoever does something wrong and throw the book at them, but the last
thing in the world we'll do is have any prevention. We were all raised
to believe that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. And
this is the only area where we're told there must be no prevention. I
just think that's wrong.
National Rifle Association
Mr. Donaldson. Well, sir, you may have once had a good relationship
with the NRA, but you don't have it today. I'm sure you're aware of the
new television ads that they are running--Charlton Heston, himself, very
effective, looks in the camera--and let me just read a portion of one of
them. He says, ``Bill Clinton says the NRA stands in the way of sensible
gun safety. But it was the NRA who pioneered the criminal background
check on gun buyers, not Bill Clinton.'' He goes on, but he concludes
this way, sir: ``Mr. Clinton, when what you say is wrong, that's a
mistake. When you know it's wrong, that's a lie.'' Now, that's tough.
That's tough, sir.
The President. Here's the--let me--true or false: The NRA was
opposed to the Brady law. True.
True or false: The NRA was opposed to the assault weapons ban. True.
True or false: The NRA happily ended the congressional careers of
brave Members of Congress of my party who stood up to them and voted for
the Brady bill and the assault weapons ban. True.
Now, they can say they pioneered background checks. You know, that's
a little sleight of hand, artful wording designed to cover up the fact
that they were opposed to the Brady bill. They were opposed to measures
that are necessary to, in fact, close the gun show loophole. They're
saying, ``If you can do an insta-check, it's okay with us. So we don't
mind you checking, as long as we're not put to any inconvenience
whatever. But the public safety is not nearly as important as our
convenience.''
Well, you know, we all go through these airport metal detectors all
the time. And a lot of us have to go through two, three, four times if
we have a money clip or something. And it's a minor inconvenience, but
we like it because we all get to stay alive that way. My view is, I have
not asked the hunters and sports people of this country or the sellers
at these gun shows to undertake inordinate inconvenience but some little
inconvenience to preserve the public safety and to do more to keep guns
out of the wrong hands.
And you know, all this sort of wounded rhetoric by the NRA, given
how ruthlessly brutal they were to Members who were brave enough to vote
for the Brady bill and the assault weapons ban is--these crocodile
tears, I don't think it will wash with the voters--even with Moses
reading the script.
Mr. Donaldson. I've been around a long time. I'm old enough to
remember people calling Harry Truman, when he sat there in this office,
a Communist and a lot of things. But I don't recall a series of well-
produced television ads which called the President of the United States
a liar. How do you feel about that?
The President. It's the way they've treated me for more than a
decade. I remember in 1991, the NRA lobbyist in Arkansas came up to me
and wanted me to sign a bill that would have prohibited any city in
Arkansas from having gun control legislation stronger than the State
had. Little Rock, at the time, was being deluged by these gang members
coming back with serious weapons and cop-killer bullets. They didn't
want cop-killer bullets banned--remember this is the same NRA. True or
false: They didn't want cop-killer bullets banned. I heard that--true.
They didn't want to ban them.
So I vetoed the bill. And this young NRA lobbyist, in the lobby of
the State Capitol in
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Arkansas said, ``Governor, you're going to run for President in 1992.
And if you veto this bill we want, we will wipe you out in Texas.'' And
there were 50 people watching; they were just aghast that this lobbyist
would talk to a Governor this way. And I knew I was growing up when I
didn't hit him. I smiled, and I said, ``Young fellow, if that's the way
you feel, you saddle up, you get your gun, I'll get mine, and I'll see
you in Texas.'' The rest is history.
You know, they basically win through intimidation. People are scared
of them.
Mr. Donaldson. They have almost 3.5 million members.
The President. Yes, but there's more people than that in America.
And look, I think the reason that they intensely dislike me is because I
have hunted in my life, because I'm not anti-gun, I'm not anti-
sportsperson, I'm not against the legitimate use of guns. And I actually
give them credit for the good things they've done in my experience.
But they've got all these charts on the wall--they're domino theory
people, you know. If you do one little thing that requires any
accommodation to the public safety that requires any effort on the part
of gun owners, they think it's the end of the world. And I just think
that's wrong.
Maybe technology will give us insta-checks for everything, but there
are some of these mental health records you can't get instantly. There
are some of the criminal records that are not accessible instantly. I
offered them--let's go back to the facts here, get out of the name-
calling and politics.
More people will stay alive if we can close the gun show loophole,
just like more people are alive because we passed the Brady background
check. When a half million people can't get handguns because they're
felons, fugitives, or stalkers, there are more people out there alive
today. That's all that I care about. I don't want to get into name-
calling with the NRA.
Now, there's a big loophole. I would remind you the NRA--go back and
look in '93, when we were trying to pass the Brady bill. They said,
``Oh, the Brady bill won't do any good because all the criminals buy
their guns somewhere else, at these gun shows or urban flea markets or
out of the back of a pickup or the trunks of cars.'' So now that we want
to close that loophole, oh, they don't want to do that--or only if it's
an insta-check so there's no inconvenience.
Well, you can't get to all the records instantly. So I say, let's
sit down and work this out so that there is a meaningful closing of the
gun show loophole. That's all I care about. Then they--if we could do
that, we save lives. They can call me anything they want and I'd be
happy as a clam.
Mr. Donaldson. Well, let's forget the name-calling. The NRA
spokesman said to me, ``We'd like to debate President Clinton.'' Would
you consider debating Charlton Heston on this issue? No name-calling,
debate the issues.
The President. Well, I'll tell you what I want to do. I want to see
the issues debated in the Congress. We've had the debate. They came
after me in '92; they came after me in '96; we had the debate. They came
after the Congress in '94, and they won that one. They elected the
Gingrich Congress with the Contract on America. They had a big role in
it, because they scared all these hunters into believing I was going to
take their guns away.
By '96, the country knew that we were doing background checks and it
was working pretty well, and nobody lost their guns. And I went to New
Hampshire and said, ``You know, they told you I was going to take your
gun away, and if you missed a day in deer season, I want you to vote
against me. But if you didn't, they didn't tell you the truth, and you
need to get even.'' And that's what happened.
So they got rid of a Congressman in New Hampshire because he voted
bravely for the Brady bill, and 2 years later they knew it was a bunch
of hooey and they voted with me. So we've had these debates. What I want
to see--I don't want to turn this into a circus. I want to turn this
into saving lives. I don't want to take the extreme positions and the
hot rhetoric.
Henry Hyde, who basically represents a lot
of their point of view, offered a way to try to close the gun show
loophole. We thought there were serious problems with that, but it was a
good-faith offer. So John Conyers made a
counteroffer. Now, here is where the rhetoric is, way out here. Here's
where the facts are, right here. And I was disappointed that Senator
Hatch wouldn't agree to let them all get
together and try to debate these two issues and try to resolve it.
There's got to be a fix here that will save people's lives. That's
the only thing that counts. Nothing else matters. The rest of this stuff
is all politics; it's inside baseball.
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Mr. Donaldson. Mr. President, thanks very much for letting us sit
down with you.
The President. Thank you.
Note: The interview was recorded at 2:45 p.m. in the Oval Office at the
White House on March 10 for broadcast on March 12. In his remarks, the
President referred to 6-year-old Kayla Rolland, who died after she was
shot by 6-year-old classmate Dedrick Owens in Mount Morris Township, MI;
Charlton Heston, president, National Rifle Association; and Gov. George
W. Bush of Texas. The transcript of this interview was released by the
Office of the Press Secretary on March 12. Portions of this interview
could not be verified because the tape was incomplete.