    [Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: WILLIAM J. CLINTON (2000, Book I)]
    [March 10, 2000]
    [Pages 433-438]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]

    Interview With Sam Donaldson of ABC's ``This Week''
    March 10, 2000

    Gun Safety Legislation

        Mr. Donaldson. Mr. President, thanks very much for letting us come
    over and talk to you today.
        The President. You're welcome, Sam.
        Mr. Donaldson. You know, among your top legislative priorities,
    everyone understands, is gun control. You want trigger safety locks; you
    want a 3-day waiting period for the sale at gun shows; you want photo
    ID's, among other things. Going to be tough to get?
        The President. It's tough to get. We were able to get the Brady bill
    passed in '93 and the assault weapons ban in '94. And unfortunately,
    several of the Members who voted for those were defeated because they
    did. But it's a safer country because of that. We've had half a million
    people who couldn't buy handguns because they were felons, fugitives, or
    stalkers, and we've got the gun death rate down to a 30-year low.
        So I think nearly everybody who has looked at it thinks we ought to
    close the gun show loophole, require child safety locks on the guns, and
    ban the importation of these large ammunition clips. I hope we can do
    that.
        Mr. Donaldson. The NRA says that the gun manufacturers have trigger
    locks now. They say

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    all of the guns being manufactured in this country, the handguns, have
    the trigger locks. So what's the big deal?
        The President. They don't all, actually; most of them do now. We've
    had good--we've worked with a lot of the gun manufacturers, and they
    deserve a lot of credit. For the first time, they really showed some
    genuine independence from the NRA line that nothing ever needs to be
    done, ever. And they came up with the gun--the child trigger locks.
        What our legislation would do would be to require the remaining
    manufacturers to do it. I would also like to see them make those
    available to retrofit guns, because a lot of people who have guns now in
    their homes would like to buy them, would like to protect them in that
    way. But I think that it would be important.
        But closing the gun show loophole is really important because a lot
    of people who now know they will be checked in gun stores can go to the
    urban flea markets or to the gun shows and buy a gun and have no
    background check whatever. And I think it's a big mistake.
        Mr. Donaldson. Well, of course the NRA says, ``We're for that. We're
    for an instant check at gun shows.'' And they say, ``The Congress
    appropriated money for you to put into the system so that the insta-
    check, just like our credit cards, can go through.'' And they say, ``Why
    hasn't he done it?''
        The President. Well, not all the records are subject to insta-check.
    For example, we offered, by the way--most of their allies in Congress
    want a 24-hour, not a 72-hour waiting period at gun shows. And there's
    something to be said for that if it's a weekend show and the people are
    moving on to somewhere else, and all that. So what we offered them was,
    okay, 24 hours for every one you can check within 24 hours, but over 90
    percent of them you can check in 24 hours. But for those you can't check
    because of some problem with it, we ought to be able to hold them up to
    3 days, because the ones that don't check out within 24 hours are 20
    times more likely to be rejected because of a problem in the background.
        So I think we can work this out. You know, when I brought the
    Congress in there the other day, the Republican leader in the House, Mr.
    Hyde, and the Democratic leader, Mr.
    Conyers, had competing proposals that were
    much closer together than the rhetoric of the debate would suggest. So
    I'm still hoping we can work this out.
        I think it's fine to let the ones go in 24 hours if you can do the
    check. But if there is some problem with the records, getting the
    records, there ought to be some provision to deposit the gun in a
    neutral place, like the local sheriff's office or something, and finish
    the check.
        Mr. Donaldson. When it comes to photo ID's, the NRA says what they
    say of a lot of your proposals. That is, the criminals are not going to
    line up; the criminals are not going to come in and say, ``Take my
    picture; here's my picture.'' It's the law-abiding citizen that you're
    going to penalize, who is not going to misuse that gun, with all of this
    stuff.
        The President. First of all, under my proposal, they would only do
    it as they buy new handguns, where they would get a photo ID license for
    showing that you passed a background check and they'd taken a safety
    course.
        Now, therefore that would make it even less likely that people with
    criminal backgrounds would try to buy handguns. And I think over the
    long run, licensing handgun owners is no more unreasonable than
    licensing people that drive cars, licensing people that do any number of
    other things, licensing people who want to go hunting or fishing. I
    don't think there's a thing in the world wrong with it, and I think it
    will help make us a safer society.
        Mr. Donaldson. I can't help but remember the little dust-up you had
    with my colleague Charlie Gibson, who said, ``Well, how about
    registration? I mean, why aren't you for that?'' Have you changed your
    mind about that since Kayla Rolland and these other terrible tragedies?
        The President. Well, one of the things that I think--the argument
    for registration, of course, is that it would make it easier to trace
    these guns through their various incarnations, and I think you can make
    a strong argument for it. What I have said is that--look, I can't even
    pass a bill closing the gun show loophole through this Congress. If the
    people want more done, I think that should be heavily debated in this
    Presidential election.
        The Vice President and Governor
    Bush are from dramatically different
    positions on the whole issue of guns, and I think it ought to be a big
    issue in the Presidential elections, so--because it's one of the things
    that will determine the shape of 21st century America--how we

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    handle safety, whether we keep bringing crime down.
        But right now, I think it will be a great thing if we can close the
    gun show loophole, ban the big ammunition clips, require the child
    safety locks, and require licensing for new handgun owners, including
    photo ID's and Brady background checks and a training course, safety
    training course.
        Mr. Donaldson. But, of course the gun that killed Kayla Rolland, I
    think it was a .32. Apparently, it had been in the home, for some time,
    of the little boy who used it. None of this would have stopped that.
        The President. Well, one thing that might do something that--was
    another provision that I asked the Congress to pass--that I asked them
    again to pass--which is to impose upon adults some responsibility for
    gun crimes committed by young children if the adults knowingly or
    recklessly permitted the child to get ahold of the gun. I think that
    should be a part of the law.
        Now, some people say, ``Oh, we shouldn't federalize the criminal
    laws; the States ought to do this.'' About 17 States have. So what I
    would--maybe if they don't want to do that, we ought to give some States
    some incentives to adopt these laws on their own. But it is wrong for
    adults to leave guns lying around that 6-year-olds can use to kill other
    6-year-olds or to kill themselves, which is what most normally happens.
        If people are going to have handguns in their homes, they should be
    rigorously secured and protected. And if they don't have these child
    trigger locks because they bought them before the child trigger locks
    were provided, they ought to have to lock them up someplace where the
    kids can't reach.
        In addition--we're talking mostly now about killing. But the
    accidental gun death rate of children under 15 is 9 times higher in the
    United States--9 times higher--than that of the next 24 biggest
    industrial countries combined. So I think there ought to be some
    responsibility on adults to keep these guns away from children. And that
    would make a difference.

    Juvenile Gun Offenders

        Mr. Donaldson. By the way, the last time you and I talked about this
    was after Jonesboro, and one of those shooters there was, I think, 11
    years of age. Now we have a child 6 years of age. What should we do
    about that child, that little kid?
        The President. Well, first, I think that what happens to this child
    in terms of custody--who has custody over this child; where is this
    child going to go--ought to be very carefully debated. Apparently, he
    was in miserable circumstances. I think that in addition to that, he's
    clearly below the age of criminal responsibility.
        Mr. Donaldson. We can't punish that 6-year-old, can we?
        The President. No, but he--human nature being what it is, he will
    probably wind up punishing himself as time goes on and he comes to
    realize what he's done.
        Mr. Donaldson. And do you think people, as he grows up, will point
    at him and say, ``That was the boy who shot that little 6-year-old many
    years ago''?
        The President. If they know. But even if they don't, he'll know.
    He'll know. And one of two things will happen, unless he's very
    fortunate. Either he will grow up with no conscience because he won't be
    able to live with it, and then he'll repeat bad acts, or he'll grow up
    consumed with guilt for something that was beyond his ability to
    understand when he was 6. So that child is going to need a lot of help
    and needs to be in a more constructive upbringing.
        But look, all of our sympathies are with the child that was killed
    and with her family and to try and prevent that. But the idea that 6-
    year-olds can get ahold of guns is outrageous, and I think the adults
    should be held responsible in some way.

    President's Experience With Guns

        Mr. Donaldson. By the way, do you own a gun today? You used to, I
    know.
        The President. Yes, but I don't have them here in the White House. I
    have owned--when I was a boy, I had a .22, when I was 12. And then I had
    a shotgun. And I've owned a handgun or two that have been given to me.
    But I've never kept them in the residence where my daughter slept.
        Mr. Donaldson. Do you still shoot them today?
        The President. No. When--I've gone hunting a few times since I've
    been President, but I've always just gone with friends and borrowed a
    shotgun when I got there.
        Mr. Donaldson. Recently?

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        The President. When was the last time I went duck hunting? A couple
    of years ago, I guess.
        Mr. Donaldson. Well, we started by----
        The President. Let me say that, you know, I grew up in this culture.
    I've never called for banning guns, banning hunting. I've never been
    against sport shooting. I believe that people ought to have the right to
    do these things. I even had a good relationship with the NRA at one time
    when I was Governor. They did a lot of good things in my State. They
    helped train people in gun safety courses, young hunters, for example.
    They helped to resolve property disputes in rural areas of my State,
    where we were worried about people hunting in various areas.
        I just think that their knee-jerk reaction to any gun safety measure
    is wrong. That's what I think is wrong. We can't pretend that America
    can have no prevention, that the only answer here is just to find
    whoever does something wrong and throw the book at them, but the last
    thing in the world we'll do is have any prevention. We were all raised
    to believe that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. And
    this is the only area where we're told there must be no prevention. I
    just think that's wrong.

    National Rifle Association

        Mr. Donaldson. Well, sir, you may have once had a good relationship
    with the NRA, but you don't have it today. I'm sure you're aware of the
    new television ads that they are running--Charlton Heston, himself, very
    effective, looks in the camera--and let me just read a portion of one of
    them. He says, ``Bill Clinton says the NRA stands in the way of sensible
    gun safety. But it was the NRA who pioneered the criminal background
    check on gun buyers, not Bill Clinton.'' He goes on, but he concludes
    this way, sir: ``Mr. Clinton, when what you say is wrong, that's a
    mistake. When you know it's wrong, that's a lie.'' Now, that's tough.
    That's tough, sir.
        The President. Here's the--let me--true or false: The NRA was
    opposed to the Brady law. True.
        True or false: The NRA was opposed to the assault weapons ban. True.
        True or false: The NRA happily ended the congressional careers of
    brave Members of Congress of my party who stood up to them and voted for
    the Brady bill and the assault weapons ban. True.
        Now, they can say they pioneered background checks. You know, that's
    a little sleight of hand, artful wording designed to cover up the fact
    that they were opposed to the Brady bill. They were opposed to measures
    that are necessary to, in fact, close the gun show loophole. They're
    saying, ``If you can do an insta-check, it's okay with us. So we don't
    mind you checking, as long as we're not put to any inconvenience
    whatever. But the public safety is not nearly as important as our
    convenience.''
        Well, you know, we all go through these airport metal detectors all
    the time. And a lot of us have to go through two, three, four times if
    we have a money clip or something. And it's a minor inconvenience, but
    we like it because we all get to stay alive that way. My view is, I have
    not asked the hunters and sports people of this country or the sellers
    at these gun shows to undertake inordinate inconvenience but some little
    inconvenience to preserve the public safety and to do more to keep guns
    out of the wrong hands.
        And you know, all this sort of wounded rhetoric by the NRA, given
    how ruthlessly brutal they were to Members who were brave enough to vote
    for the Brady bill and the assault weapons ban is--these crocodile
    tears, I don't think it will wash with the voters--even with Moses
    reading the script.
        Mr. Donaldson. I've been around a long time. I'm old enough to
    remember people calling Harry Truman, when he sat there in this office,
    a Communist and a lot of things. But I don't recall a series of well-
    produced television ads which called the President of the United States
    a liar. How do you feel about that?
        The President. It's the way they've treated me for more than a
    decade. I remember in 1991, the NRA lobbyist in Arkansas came up to me
    and wanted me to sign a bill that would have prohibited any city in
    Arkansas from having gun control legislation stronger than the State
    had. Little Rock, at the time, was being deluged by these gang members
    coming back with serious weapons and cop-killer bullets. They didn't
    want cop-killer bullets banned--remember this is the same NRA. True or
    false: They didn't want cop-killer bullets banned. I heard that--true.
    They didn't want to ban them.
        So I vetoed the bill. And this young NRA lobbyist, in the lobby of
    the State Capitol in

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    Arkansas said, ``Governor, you're going to run for President in 1992.
    And if you veto this bill we want, we will wipe you out in Texas.'' And
    there were 50 people watching; they were just aghast that this lobbyist
    would talk to a Governor this way. And I knew I was growing up when I
    didn't hit him. I smiled, and I said, ``Young fellow, if that's the way
    you feel, you saddle up, you get your gun, I'll get mine, and I'll see
    you in Texas.'' The rest is history.
        You know, they basically win through intimidation. People are scared
    of them.
        Mr. Donaldson. They have almost 3.5 million members.
        The President. Yes, but there's more people than that in America.
    And look, I think the reason that they intensely dislike me is because I
    have hunted in my life, because I'm not anti-gun, I'm not anti-
    sportsperson, I'm not against the legitimate use of guns. And I actually
    give them credit for the good things they've done in my experience.
        But they've got all these charts on the wall--they're domino theory
    people, you know. If you do one little thing that requires any
    accommodation to the public safety that requires any effort on the part
    of gun owners, they think it's the end of the world. And I just think
    that's wrong.
        Maybe technology will give us insta-checks for everything, but there
    are some of these mental health records you can't get instantly. There
    are some of the criminal records that are not accessible instantly. I
    offered them--let's go back to the facts here, get out of the name-
    calling and politics.
        More people will stay alive if we can close the gun show loophole,
    just like more people are alive because we passed the Brady background
    check. When a half million people can't get handguns because they're
    felons, fugitives, or stalkers, there are more people out there alive
    today. That's all that I care about. I don't want to get into name-
    calling with the NRA.
        Now, there's a big loophole. I would remind you the NRA--go back and
    look in '93, when we were trying to pass the Brady bill. They said,
    ``Oh, the Brady bill won't do any good because all the criminals buy
    their guns somewhere else, at these gun shows or urban flea markets or
    out of the back of a pickup or the trunks of cars.'' So now that we want
    to close that loophole, oh, they don't want to do that--or only if it's
    an insta-check so there's no inconvenience.
        Well, you can't get to all the records instantly. So I say, let's
    sit down and work this out so that there is a meaningful closing of the
    gun show loophole. That's all I care about. Then they--if we could do
    that, we save lives. They can call me anything they want and I'd be
    happy as a clam.
        Mr. Donaldson. Well, let's forget the name-calling. The NRA
    spokesman said to me, ``We'd like to debate President Clinton.'' Would
    you consider debating Charlton Heston on this issue? No name-calling,
    debate the issues.
        The President. Well, I'll tell you what I want to do. I want to see
    the issues debated in the Congress. We've had the debate. They came
    after me in '92; they came after me in '96; we had the debate. They came
    after the Congress in '94, and they won that one. They elected the
    Gingrich Congress with the Contract on America. They had a big role in
    it, because they scared all these hunters into believing I was going to
    take their guns away.
        By '96, the country knew that we were doing background checks and it
    was working pretty well, and nobody lost their guns. And I went to New
    Hampshire and said, ``You know, they told you I was going to take your
    gun away, and if you missed a day in deer season, I want you to vote
    against me. But if you didn't, they didn't tell you the truth, and you
    need to get even.'' And that's what happened.
        So they got rid of a Congressman in New Hampshire because he voted
    bravely for the Brady bill, and 2 years later they knew it was a bunch
    of hooey and they voted with me. So we've had these debates. What I want
    to see--I don't want to turn this into a circus. I want to turn this
    into saving lives. I don't want to take the extreme positions and the
    hot rhetoric.
        Henry Hyde, who basically represents a lot
    of their point of view, offered a way to try to close the gun show
    loophole. We thought there were serious problems with that, but it was a
    good-faith offer. So John Conyers made a
    counteroffer. Now, here is where the rhetoric is, way out here. Here's
    where the facts are, right here. And I was disappointed that Senator
    Hatch wouldn't agree to let them all get
    together and try to debate these two issues and try to resolve it.
        There's got to be a fix here that will save people's lives. That's
    the only thing that counts. Nothing else matters. The rest of this stuff
    is all politics; it's inside baseball.

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        Mr. Donaldson. Mr. President, thanks very much for letting us sit
    down with you.
        The President. Thank you.

    Note: The interview was recorded at 2:45 p.m. in the Oval Office at the
    White House on March 10 for broadcast on March 12. In his remarks, the
    President referred to 6-year-old Kayla Rolland, who died after she was
    shot by 6-year-old classmate Dedrick Owens in Mount Morris Township, MI;
    Charlton Heston, president, National Rifle Association; and Gov. George
    W. Bush of Texas. The transcript of this interview was released by the
    Office of the Press Secretary on March 12. Portions of this interview
    could not be verified because the tape was incomplete.