    [Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: WILLIAM J. CLINTON (2000, Book I)]
    [May 22, 2000]
    [Pages 1003-1005]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]

    Interview With Tom Brokaw of NBC's ``Nightly
    News''
    May 22, 2000

    Permanent Normal Trade Relations With China

        Mr. Brokaw.  Now to the President of the United States, live from
    the Roosevelt Room at the White House. Mr. President, good evening.
    Thank you for being with us.
        You need 218 votes in the House. How many do you have firm tonight?
        The President.  I don't know, Tom; we're getting close. I'm not sure
    I agree with Lisa. I don't know that we're
    confident, but we're working hard. And I think that the message is
    getting there because everyone knows, first of all, economically, China
    gets no new access to our markets, and we get vast new access to their
    markets. This is not like a normal trade agreement. This is more like a
    membership deal. They get in the World Trade Organization, and we get
    great new access to their markets.
        And secondly, I think all these people who care about human rights
    in China coming out for the agreement because it will move China closer
    to the rule of law and closer to freedom--the dissidents in China, the
    new leader of Taiwan, the Hong Kong democracy
    leader, Martin Lee, the Dalai Lama even--all these people saying that this will advance the
    cause of human rights and personal freedom and the rule of law, and the
    fact that it's clearly in our national security interests, I think these
    things are helping us. And so I'm optimistic. But boy, we've got a lot
    of work to do. It's not done yet.
        Mr. Brokaw.  Mr. President, Wei Jingsheng, who is a leading
    dissident, is violently opposed to this trade deal. Let me read to you
    from the 1999 State Department report on human rights in China: ``The
    Government's poor human rights record deteriorated markedly throughout
    the year as the Government intensified its efforts to suppress dissent.
    By year's end, almost all the key leaders of the China Democracy Party
    were serving long prison terms or were in custody without formal
    charges.''
        We're not going to be hearing those voices in this debate.
        The President.  Well, we have also taken the lead in trying to call
    attention to China's human rights abuses in the proper international
    forum. But I think it's quite interesting that you have people who have
    been persecuted in China or someone like Martin Lee, who can't even go to China from Hong Kong because he's
    for democracy, saying that the only way to get China into a system that
    observes the rule of law more and protects human rights more and has
    more liberty is to have this kind of strategic engagement and put China
    in a system where they will observe the rule of law.
        And there are dissidents, of course, who don't think it should be
    done, but I think it's really important to know that in China the main
    people who don't want this to pass are the ultra-conservative Communists
    in the military and

    [[Page 1004]]

    those who run the state-owned industries, who know that if we give them
    the back of our hand, then they can use that as a way of saying, ``Okay,
    America's going to be our enemy now, so we're going to maintain our
    control over the military, our control over the businesses, our control
    over the people more.''
        I think it's quite interesting that in China, the people who want us
    to vote against this are the--basically the more reactionary Communist
    elements who would like to have America as an enemy for a long time to
    come. I think if you--all the press reports coming out of China show
    that it is the reformers, the people who genuinely want to change China,
    who want to get into the WTO, and who want to have a constructive long-
    term working relationship with the United States.
        So I'm doing this because, yes, it's clearly good for America
    economically but also because we fought three wars in Asia in the last
    50 years, and I want to give our children a chance to have a
    constructive relationship with China, give China a chance to evolve
    toward more democracy. Is it guaranteed? Of course not----
        Mr. Brokaw.  Mr. President----
        The President. ----but it's far more likely if we do this.
        Mr. Brokaw.  Mr. President, the Interfaith Alliance that has been
    advising Congress and the White House on matters of religion has also
    come out against it. But one of the people who says that he's going to
    vote for the China trade bill is a New York Congressman by the name of
    Rick Lazio. Does he strike you as a pretty enlightened public servant?
        The President.  Well, I agree with him on this, and I'm glad he's
    going to vote for it.

    New York Senatorial Election

        Mr. Brokaw.  Do you think that Mrs. Clinton is going to have a much
    tougher race against Rick Lazio than she might have against Mayor
    Giuliani?
        The President.  Oh, I don't know. I think Mayor Giuliani was a very formidable candidate because of his
    service as mayor, because of the big drop in crime in New York, and
    because he agreed with us on so many other issues. He supported my
    initiative to put 100,000 police on the street and on many other things.
        So I think that--you know, I think it's a hard race regardless. But
    I like her chances because I think
    the people of New York will like her more and more as the days go by and
    because they agree with her on the issues. And I look forward to voting
    for her.

    Arkansas Disbarment Proceeding

        Mr. Brokaw.  Mr. President, in your home State of Arkansas tonight a
    panel for the Arkansas Supreme Court has recommended that you be
    disbarred. Your lawyer has already said that you will appeal, that it's
    unprecedented. Will you personally take part in that appeal and appear
    in Arkansas to argue your case?
        The President.  No. No, I promised myself, and I promised the
    American people when all the proceedings were over in Congress, that I
    would take no further personal part. And I knew when the timetable for
    this was moved up that I'd always be at a severe disadvantage because I
    will not personally involve myself in any of this until I'm no longer
    President. It's not right.
        The only reason I agreed even to appeal it is that my lawyers looked
    at all the precedents, and they said, ``There's no way in the world, if
    they just treat you like everybody else has been treated, that this is
    even close to that kind of case.'' So the precedents contradict this
    decision, and ultimately the decision has to be made by a judge. And so
    we're going to give the judge a chance to do what we believe is right,
    and I think that's the right thing to do.
        Mr. Brokaw. But Mr. President, this comes in a State where you were
    the attorney general, where you taught law. You've now been held in
    contempt of court by a Federal judge in that State, and you've been
    recommended for disbarment. With all due respect, this is a stain on
    your record well outside the political arena, isn't it?
        The President.  Well, when I'm not President anymore, I'll be happy
    to defend myself. And there is certainly another side to both those
    things you mentioned, and I'll be happy to talk about it. But the main
    thing I want to say tonight is the only reason I agreed even to have
    papers filed, since I'm not going to defend myself while I'm President,
    is that there are clear precedents where more significant kinds of
    conduct--even if you assume what the judge says is right, which I
    strongly disagree with--that led to nowhere near this kind of decision.
    This decision contradicts all the cases on point that the committee has
    ever decided in the past. And so we'll let a judge decide whether it's
    right or wrong.

    [[Page 1005]]

     Note: The interview began at 6:30 p.m. in Roosevelt Room at the White
    House and was broadcast live. In his remarks, the President referred to
    Lisa Myers, national correspondent, NBC News; President Chen Shui-bian
    of Taiwan; Hong Kong Democratic Party Chair Martin Lee; and Mayor
    Rudolph W. Giuliani of New York City.