    [Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: William J. Clinton (1998, Book I)]
    [April 2, 1998]
    [Pages 490-494]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]

    [[Page 490]]

    Remarks in a Roundtable Discussion With Human Rights Activists in Dakar
    April 2, 1998

        The President. First let me say how delighted that I am to have such
    a distinguished group to discuss human rights and democracy in Africa. I
    thank our panelists for being here, and also let me thank all of those
    who are here in the audience who have worked on this cause across the
    continent in your various countries and, in at least one instance, in
    your particular village.
        I think it is clear that there has been some significant progress in
    Africa in the decade of the nineties. The number of governments that
    were elected by their people have gone from 5 to 24. But we have to be
    clear: There is still a huge human rights challenge, a huge democracy
    challenge in Africa.
        We believe that human rights are universal. That's what the
    international Declaration of Human Rights says. That's why the United
    States has worked hard to support democracy and human rights in Africa.
    Since 1989, we have worked in 46 different African nations. We have
    invested more than $400 million of our taxpayers' money to support
    elections, to reform judiciaries, to strengthen the participation of
    citizens in decisionmaking that affects our own lives. That support will
    continue.
        I have seen many heartening signs on this trip in South Africa, in
    the determination of the people I spoke with in Rwanda and in many other
    places, to continue to press the cause of human rights. Mostly though, I
    am here to listen and learn from you.
        And I want to say a special word of appreciation to the First
    Lady for the work she's done on these
    issues, especially beginning at the Beijing women's conference and the
    work that began here in Senegal last year on the issue of female genital
    mutilation, which I know she had a meeting about this morning.
        Would you like to say anything before we begin?

    [Hillary Clinton welcomed the guests
    and recognized a group of villagers from Malicounda Bambara, praising
    their efforts to eliminate the ancient custom of female circumcision in
    Senegal.]

        The President. Now, let's begin. There are many issues here that I
    hope we can have discussed today, and if they may be covered in the
    initial comments by our speakers, we want to talk about democracy and
    human rights. We want to talk about the threat of ethnic conflict to
    forming a unified democratic environment. We want to talk about how--the
    challenge of investigating past abuses and working for justice while
    promoting national unity and reconciliation, issues of freedom of the
    press, women's rights. There are a number of things that I hope we can
    deal with today.
        But again, I want all of you to feel free to say mostly what it is
    you want to say about where you are, what you're doing, and what you
    believe the United States can do to support your endeavors.
        Who would like to go first? Someone volunteer? Archbishop?

    [Archbishop Raphael S. Ndingi Mwana'a Nzeki, of Nairobi, Kenya, chairman, Kenya National
    Justice and Peace Commission, explained that although Kenya made
    advancements in democracy and human rights, corruption among law
    enforcement and political leaders led to increased violent crime. He
    stated that the people of Kenya needed U.S. support to continue their
    struggle for reform.]

        The President. Thank you very much.

    [Samuel Kofi Woods, executive director,
    Justice and Peace Commission, National Catholic Secretariat, described
    the human rights situation in Liberia and urged the United States to
    support the establishment of institutions in Liberia to safeguard the
    rights of its citizens and advance the cause of democracy. Reginald
    Matchaba Hove, chairman, Zimbabwe
    Human Rights Association, discussed the process of reconciliation
    following human rights abuses, and stated that confession,
    acknowledgement of guilt, and forgiveness were necessary cathartic steps
    for both the abused and the abusers. He encouraged the U.S. Government
    to support local initiatives to ensure reconciliation and commended the
    President's visit, particularly to Goree Island, as an important
    gesture.]

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        The President. Thank you, Doctor, very much. I don't want to
    interrupt the flow of the statements, but I would like to pose a
    question that we can return to perhaps after you all make your
    statements, if it's not convenient to address it as you go along. The
    Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa to which you
    referred obviously has made a great impression on people all across the
    world, and it has a great appeal. Yet, thinking about practically how
    you would do it in another country raises the question of whether it is
    possible if the leader of the country is not someone like Mr.
    Mandela. That is, he suffered so grievously
    himself, he is in a position to come forward and say, ``This is the
    procedure I advocate, and if it's okay with me, who are you to say it's
    not enough?''
        So, on the one hand, since he was the
    oppressed, he can make sure--to go back to something that Sam and the
    Archbishop said--he can make sure that the power of government is put at
    the service of the people who have been abused, something that others
    may not be able to do. And on the other hand, he can say to those who
    lost their loved ones or who were horribly scarred or maimed, ``I can
    forgive. You should, too.'' So there is a unique position there.
        If you sought to do something like that in other countries and we
    wanted to support it, as a practical matter, could it be done in a way
    that would either make the people who had been abused feel that they
    were at peace or, on the other hand, reach the consciousness of those
    who may be duly elected now but still may have done things for which
    they should atone? That, I think, is the problem we have all tried to
    come to terms with.
        Anyway, who would like to go next? Anyone?

    [Baudoin Hamuli of the Democratic Republic of
    Congo (formerly Zaire), executive secretary, National Council of
    Development, Non-Governmental Organizations, described the positive
    changes that had occurred since President Laurent Kabila replaced former
    President Mobutu Sese Seko, but expressed concern that, without a
    constitutionally based government, the opportunity still existed for
    abuse of power. He urged the United States to pressure President Kabila
    for more democratization and to support peace efforts in the Great Lakes
    area, poverty alleviation programs, and economic reconstruction.]

        The President. Let me just say very briefly about this, this is very
    helpful. Any hope we have, I think, of having a regional system for
    developing the Great Lakes region, and indeed to some extent a larger in
    Africa, rests on the successful emergence of the Congo as a functioning
    democratic society. And we have here leaders--Mr. Royce, the Chairman of the Africa Subcommittee in the Congress,
    and our Assistant Secretary of State for
    Africa, and Reverend Jackson, my Special Envoy
    for Africa--we're all trying to figure out how we can best work with and
    influence Mr. Kabila, because, as you
    point out, I think one of their biggest handicaps is so many of them in
    the government were out of the Congo for so long. And then when they
    came in and started the struggle to replace Mobutu, I think it happened
    even more easily and more quickly than they thought it would.
        But now they're confronted with what has typically been a dilemma,
    sometimes more imagined than real, for people in positions of
    governance. They say, ``Well, you know, these countries, they fluctuate
    between anarchy and abusive dictatorship, so I don't want anarchy, so
    maybe I'll be a less abusive dictator.'' You've heard this story
    throughout your whole lives.
        So what we have to do is somehow find a way for other countries from
    the outside and people like you from the inside to show these people who
    have come into the government, oftentimes from many years away from the
    Congo, if you will, a middle way, a way to--and the only way they can
    succeed--of empowering people at the grassroots level and working out a
    less centralized approach.
        And we will work very hard on it, because I believe that if the
    transition of the Congo away from Mobutu to a genuine democratic,
    functioning government could succeed, as vast and as wealthy as the
    country is--and with the horrible history of the last few years--it
    would be a stunning example to the rest of the continent, indeed, to
    places in other continents of the world. So it's a very important issue.
    And I thank you very much for it.

    [Director of Studies Amsatou Sow Sidibe
    of the Peace and Human Rights Institute at the Cheikh Anta Diop
    University of Dakar described Senegal's strong democratic tradition as
    well as its ongoing problems in protecting the human rights of women and
    children, and requested U.S. support for education and implementation of
    the

    [[Page 492]]

    U.N. convention on women's rights. Ivorian Association for the Defense
    of the Rights of Women President Constance Yai
    reiterated that African governments and populations are hostile to women
    and stressed that the absence of women in decisionmaking bodies was a
    major concern which contributed to the continent's problems. Nigerian
    Civil Liberties Organization President Ayo Obe, said
    that Nigerians in the past took their freedom for granted, but that due
    to the corruption and inefficiency of its military dictatorship, current
    human rights abuses added to the country's economic collapse. Ms. Obe
    expressed cautious optimism concerning the upcoming general election but
    noted that Nigeria's five political parties were all created by and
    beholden to the government, leading to a lack of independent ideology.
    She concluded by voicing the belief that the strides in human rights by
    neighboring African nations would lead Nigeria to follow.]

        The President. Let me say just very briefly, before I ask
    John to speak, that in all candor the question
    of Nigeria has been the most difficult for us to deal with, because it
    is the most populous country in Africa, because it has this incredible
    irony of having the vast oil resources and all the poverty and
    dislocation at home, and because every avenue we have tried to try to
    deal with the government of General Abacha has
    been frustrating to us.
        And we even had--I think it's fair to say we've had some fairly
    heated debates among ourselves about, well, should we just continue
    having nothing to do with this man? Should we
    try to at least deal with him in the way we're working with President
    Kabila? What should we do? Because it
    is an incredible tragedy; you have this huge, diverse, rich country, in
    effect, being driven into the ground by political oppression and
    mismanagement.
        And we have said that if there were a release of the political
    prisoners, if there were a genuine political process that was real, not
    just a military government in a suit and tie, that we would try to work
    with it. But by your comments, you know how difficult it is to exercise
    any constructive influence. And yet it's a great tragedy.
        I mean, when I was in Ghana, and we were discussing energy
    problems--just to take the energy issue--I learned that the oil
    production in Nigeria is continuing to burn off the natural gas instead
    of to save it and to sell it to Nigerians or to others, when everyone
    who knows anything about energy knows that the natural gas is not only
    just as valuable as oil but less damaging to the environment and could
    help to provide huge amounts of money to Nigeria to alleviate the
    suffering of the people and lift the condition of the people. I just
    give that as one example.
        We will continue to do what we can. We will continue to look for
    other avenues, and we will continue to encourage the other African
    governments to do the same. And the point you made about expecting it
    from South Africa but needing it from the others I think is a very
    important one.
        John.

    [John Makela, executive director of a media
    training institution in Mozambique, discussed the importance of
    strengthening the emerging media industry in African nations as a
    crucial arm of the democratization process. He stated that his native
    Zambia had a decent media presence but many other nations did not,
    either because of repressive governments, poor business and management
    skills, or both. Mr. Makela stressed the need for more widespread public
    discussion of issues and increased radio and Internet access, and
    concluded that the United States could help Africa by supporting media
    training institutions.]

        The President. Thank you very much. Let me just, if I could, pick up
    on a couple of suggestions you made. First of all, the comment you made
    about radio struck me as particularly important. As we traveled around
    the country and got into some of the rural areas, I thought about that
    myself. But for all of you who are interested in this, I think that it
    is important that people like you get out ahead of this and come up with
    ideas about how you could use it in a beneficial way to advance
    democracy and human rights. Because one of the things I worry about is
    that in this ongoing struggle, that some of the people that are most
    hostile to what you believe in could one day hit upon the instrument of
    the radio to drive wedges between people.
        That's been one of our biggest problems in Bosnia, where we're
    seeking to make peace, is that instruments of the media, the radio and
    the television, came totally into the hands of basically the people who
    had a stake in keeping

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    the various ethnic groups at war with one another. And so they
    relentlessly use the radio to abuse the privilege of the airwaves, which
    in every country should belong to the public at large. It should be used
    for larger public purposes.
        So I think that this is a cause, John, which
    you might make a common cause with other human rights groups around the
    continent, because I think it's very important. In the places which have
    no communications, including some of the villages that I have visited,
    it will come, and it's very important when it comes, how it comes. I
    cannot overestimate that to you, the importance of making sure that when
    this happens to the general population, that it is an instrument of
    education and enlightenment and bringing people together and empowering
    them, not just one more blunt weapon to beat them down and keep them
    apart.
        Now, let me just say one other thing. When I listen to you all talk
    and putting this into the context of the larger trip, it is obvious that
    many, many great things are happening in Africa; that, if you look at
    them, you think there's an African renaissance. If you look at some of
    the problems you mentioned and you realize some things we haven't talked
    about in great detail, the education, environmental, and economic
    problems, there's still a lot of crisis.
        I had a meeting with young leaders in South Africa to discuss this,
    and I said that just observing all these places--and I went to two
    villages, I went to three different townships and neighborhoods in South
    Africa when I was there, apart from the cities and the official work.
    And it seems to me that there is a crying need for--you have a lot of
    leaders and potential leaders, not only people like you who have good
    educations and backgrounds but the people who stood up and were
    applauded here--they're leaders, too. And we would like to focus more on
    building the structures necessary for leadership to work.
        There are the national structures you talked about, the press, the
    education system, all of that. But there's also the need to figure out
    how you can best channel the resources that might come from outside at
    the grassroots level. We went to Dal Diam, the village here, yesterday,
    and we saw people essentially reclaiming the desert because someone gave
    them enough money to build a well. So one little village, they reclaimed
    5 hectares of the desert. That's the way you reverse the growth of the
    desert, people do it, because they have to find a way to sustain their
    life as they do that.
        So before we have to break up here, I would just like to say to all
    of you, I do not want this trip of ours to be an isolated event. I want
    it to be the beginning of a much more comprehensive and constructive
    role for the United States. So as you think about the structural
    issues--not just what can the President of the United States say to the
    leader of some other country--I want you to feel free, on your own
    behalf and for others with whom you come in contact, to contact us with
    very specific suggestions about what we can do to help people in your
    countries change their own lives, what kind of structural changes,
    supports, can be built in to build organized efforts such as the one we
    have celebrated today with the women and men who are here from the
    village that Hillary visited. I think it's very important.
        We're about out of time, but I wonder if any of you have any other--
    any of you would like a second round of comments based on what you've
    heard before we adjourn. Is there anything else you would like to say to
    me or to each other?
        Yes.

    [Ms. Sidibe asked why the United States
    had not ratified the convention on children's rights and a 1977 treaty
    on antipersonnel landmines.]

        The President. Well, let me, first of all, answer an earlier
    question you made. You made a lot of points about education in your
    earlier remarks, and we have announced a new initiative there. And I
    hope that--let me follow up on that just to say I hope you will think of
    other specific things we can do in that regard.
        On the children's convention, the Senate of the United States has
    not ratified that because of a concern about one particular provision in
    it and how it relates to the sovereignty of our States in the United
    States. But we fully support its objectives and always have.
        On the landmine issue, I don't know about the '77 convention. I can
    tell you that we, the United States, spend more than half of the money
    the whole world spends to take landmines out of the ground. We have
    already destroyed 1\1/2\ million of our own landmines, and we are in the
    process of destroying our whole supply--with the single exception of
    those that are in a very carefully marked plot of land in

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    Korea, at the border of North and South Korea. We leave them there--
    first of all, they're not near any residential area; they're not near
    any children; and the area where they are is heavily marked with
    warning; and no civilian has ever been hurt there--because the North
    Korean Army has vastly larger forces on the border of South Korea than
    the South Koreans and the Americans have facing them. And it's only
    about 18 miles from the border of North Korea to Seoul, the largest city
    in South Korea. And the landmines are thought to be the only presently
    available deterrent should an invasion occur, and no invasion has
    occurred.
        We are there pursuant to the United Nations resolution of the
    conflict between North and South Korea. I think there is some
    encouragement that that may be resolved, that the final peace may be
    made. And when that happens, then the last remaining landmine issue will
    be resolved.
        In the meanwhile, we will continue to do everything we can to end
    the problem of landmines for people everywhere. We will continue to
    spend the money that we're spending, to use the people that we're
    using--we, actually not very long ago, lost a crew of our Air Force--you
    may remember--in a tragic accident off the coast of Africa when they
    just deposited some American forces to take landmines up in southwest
    Africa. It was an airline accident, but they were there to deal with the
    landmine issue.
        It is a very, very important thing to me, personally, and to our
    country. And we are trying to increase the number of people trained to
    take the mines up, and also increase the amount of equipment available.
    And interestingly enough, for the first time ever, our Defense
    Department has just recently purchased a machine made in South Africa
    that aids in the extraction of landmines from the ground. So we are
    working very, very hard on that.

    [A participant commended the President for listening to Africans instead
    of telling them what to do, and encouraged him to support reconciliation
    through local and regional African mechanisms.]

        The President. Well, one of the things that we have learned the hard
    way, just from trying to solve social problems in our own country, is
    that there is a sense in which the people are always ahead of the
    leaders. And therefore, partnership is all that works. And certainly
    it's true for us coming here from a totally different experience.
        I believe the United States, as I said when I got here, tended to
    view Africa too much through the very limited lens of the cold war for
    too long. And I believe that the world over has seen too much of Africa
    only in terms of the problems, when something bad happens. So I think--
    what I'm trying to do is to get the scales right, to see the problems
    and the promise and to develop a partnership that makes sense, that will
    outlive my Presidency, that will fundamentally change forever the way
    the United States and Africa relate to one another.
        It's heartbreaking to me that there are some situations for which I
    don't have a ready answer, the most painful and the biggest one being
    the one that we discussed with Nigeria. But I'm positive that if we have
    a consistent, ongoing effort and if we continue to listen and work
    together, that increasingly the promise will prevail over the problems.
        Thank you.

    Note: The President spoke at 11:00 a.m. at the Hotel Le Meridien
    President. In his remarks, he referred to President Nelson Mandela of
    South Africa; and Gen. Sani Abacha, Chairman, Nigerian Federal Executive
    Council.