    [Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: William J. Clinton (1998, Book I)]
    [April 14, 1998]
    [Pages 560-565]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]

    Remarks at the ESPN Townhall Meeting on Race in Houston
    April 14, 1998

    [ESPN commentator Bob Ley, who served as moderator,
    welcomed the President and asked what such a dialog on race and sports
    could bring to the Nation at large.]

        The President. Well, first of all, let me thank you and ESPN for doing this for the second time, and thank
    our panelists for being willing to put themselves on the line and be
    honest and open and accountable to the audience.
        I'd like to say a couple of things I think we can achieve. First of
    all, America, rightly or wrongly, is a sports-crazy country and we often
    see games as a metaphor or a symbol of what we are as a people. So I
    think by dealing with both the positive things which have happened, in
    terms of opportunity for people of all races and people getting together
    and working together, and the continuing challenges in athletics, I
    think just by doing that we learn more about the rest of the country and
    what needs to be done.
        Beyond that, I think that it's important that people see that in
    athletics in America, that the rules are fair, that people get their
    fair chance, and I would hope, too, that the concern for the lives of
    the players off the field, off the court, and what they're doing when
    their athletic careers are over, and whether they still will be full and
    equal members of society, closing the opportunity gaps that have existed
    historically between the races in our country--whether there's something
    we can do about that, because that clearly will have larger implications
    for the society as a whole.
        But all of us, as Americans, I think, should be both proud of how
    far we've come when we see what racial and ethnic and religious tensions
    are doing in other parts of the world, and at the same time should be
    very determined to continue to meet the challenges that still exist,
    because our country is becoming more and more racially and ethnically
    diverse. And if we can be one America, celebrating our diversity but
    knowing what we have in common, then it's the greatest asset I can
    imagine for us to take into the 21st century. But it's something we
    really have to work at, as I'm sure all these folks will tell us.

    [[Page 561]]

    [At this point, Mr. Ley asked former football player and actor Jim
    Brown for his impression of the condition of race
    relations in sports since an ESPN program on race 14 months earlier. Mr.
    Brown said tremendous progress had been made and that white America had
    provided African-Americans with opportunities that should be taken
    advantage of economically. Georgetown University basketball coach John
    Thompson described the need for frank and open
    discussions about many college athletes' lack of competency outside of
    sports. Keyshawn Johnson, wide receiver for
    the New York Jets, stated that during his rookie year in the National
    Football League, contrary to what he had been told, he found that all
    players were not treated equally. Carmen Policy, president of the San Francisco 49ers, responded that
    the youth of the athletes entering professional sports had to be taken
    into consideration. Mr. Ley then asked about hiring practices in sports,
    particularly for head coaching positions in the NFL. Mr. Policy said
    that team owners would hire the best candidate for the job regardless of
    that person's race, but that the selection process itself was flawed.
    Mr. Ley then asked Minnesota Vikings head coach Dennis Green how he broke the racial barrier. Mr. Green referred to
    his accomplishment as jumping a hurdle and said that discussions like
    this would focus attention on the issue. He pointed out, however, that
    out of 15 coaching vacancies in the last 3 years, not a single position
    went to an African-American. Mr. Ley asked the President if a conclusion
    should be drawn from that statistic.]

        The President. It says something. We just have to make sure we know
    what it says. For example, very often we assume that those numbers are
    there, there's some--maybe even an illegal practice, which may not be
    true. But if you go back to what Carmen said, one of the things that
    I've seen--or go back to what John Thompson said--and you know,
    Georgetown is my alma mater so I always try to cheer for John and try
    never to disagree with him. [Laughter] But there's some--let's assume
    that there is absolutely no conscious racism in any of these decisions.
    I have been now in an executive position--I've been President for 5\1/2\
    years nearly; I was Governor of my State for 12 years. I've hired
    hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people. In every position I've
    ever held, I've always hired more minorities than my predecessors. When
    I was Governor, I hired more minorities, appointed more than all my
    predecessors combined. No one ever accused me of giving anybody anything
    for which they weren't qualified.
        But what I found out was, if that was a goal and you knew it was
    important, there was a certain network by which--the easy network by
    which those decisions are made, and you've got to break through the
    network and change the rules if you want to do it.
        Mr. Ley. So the numbers are important then?
        The President. Numbers are important. But my reaction was, when
    Keyshawn's book came out--and you know, I'm
    a big football fan, I follow this, and I saw him play in college--is,
    you know, if I were running his team, I'd just want to make as many
    touchdowns as I could, you know. And what I think you have to do is to
    kind of--Carmen went around here and he really
    prepared for this tonight. So I think that's what we need people to do
    for these coaching positions. We need to think if this is a problem, we
    want more minority coaches in the NFL, we want more minority coaches in
    the college ranks, you have to say--and we're making an honest effort to
    pick the most qualified people, why aren't we producing them?
        I'd say there's something wrong with the recruitment system, with
    the pool, and you've got to rethink that and make a real effort. But my
    experience, my personal experience is, if you make a real effort there
    are lots of people out there. Since I believe intelligence and ability
    are evenly distributed across racial and ethnic groups, if you look at
    it, you can find it.

    [At this point, Mr. Ley asked John Moores, owner
    of the Major League Baseball San Diego Padres, if he was satisfied with
    minority representation in administrative positions in baseball. Mr.
    Moores said he was not and noted that while baseball was the most
    ethnically diverse sport, well-qualified minority manager candidates had
    been passed over. Former baseball player and current ESPN baseball
    analyst Joe Morgan said he believed progress was
    being made and that equal interview opportunity should be given to all
    candidates for all types of vacancies. Mr. Ley asked Vince
    Dooley, athletic director at the University of
    Georgia, about the continuing predominance of white head coaches in
    Division I college football, where over half the players were African-
    American. Mr.

    [[Page 562]]

    Dooley responded first by commending the President for the race
    initiative.]

        The President. Thank you.

    [Mr. Dooley said college football needed more examples like Mr.
    Thompson, Mr. Green, and Tubby Smith, head coach of the NCAA champion
    Kentucky Wildcats men's basketball team. St. John's University
    basketball player Felipe Lopez discussed the
    benefits of ethnic diversity in sports. Former track star Jackie Joyner-
    Kersee, administrator of a foundation
    in East St. Louis, IL, helping youth, discussed the need for action to
    follow up on the dialog, in order to provide more examples for minority
    youth and to combat the subtle racism in business networking that kept
    the upper strata exclusive. After a commercial break, Mr. Ley asked Mr.
    Johnson about racial stereotyping by professional athletes. Mr. Johnson
    replied that the media created stereotypes in their coverage but
    management and coaching often reinforced them. At this point, Mr. Ley
    called on audience member Michael Waters, a
    high school student body president, who asked Mr. Brown if the
    stereotype of blacks being more athletically adept than whites was a
    form of discrimination against whites. Mr. Brown dismissed the questions
    of stereotyping as missing the point of the discussion and then
    reiterated his emphasis on economics, saying that African-American
    coaches and athletes making millions of dollars in salaries should hire
    black lawyers, agents, and managers exclusively. Mr. Johnson said that
    his attorney and investment advisers were African-American, but were
    hired for their skills rather than their race. Ms. Joyner-Kersee added
    that in her foundation she tried to give opportunities to those who
    might not get them otherwise. Mr. Thompson responded that he would not
    terminate his relationships with whites who had helped him achieve his
    success, and that society caused individuals to think in such racially
    limited terms. He then stated that blacks didn't want to feel they had
    to be perfect to get the job, but only wanted the same opportunity to
    try. Mr. Dooley commented that he paid more attention to a candidate's
    history of success than to an interview. Mr. Ley then asked the
    President for his views.]

        The President. Well, first of all, I appreciate the honesty of the
    interchange and that shows basically the--actually the progress that's
    been made on this issue in athletics. Why? Because I basically--I agree
    with the point Jim Brown made, but I respect what
    John Thompson said. That is, if you have
    personal experiences with people who have helped you to achieve their
    goals, even if they're of different races, and you're not going to turn
    around and abandon your friends and abandon people who are doing a good
    job for you. And that's good.
        The point Jim is making, however, is a
    different one, and I'd just like to sort of--because when we get to the
    last section, there's another issue I want us to get to, which is
    related to this--but what he's pointing out, there's still a huge
    opportunity gap in our society by race in terms of economic standing.
    That's the only point he was making--and that if we want a stable
    society, we want large middle classes among African-Americans, large
    middle classes among Hispanic-Americans, large middle classes among
    Asian-American immigrants--first generation immigrants. That's the point
    Jim's making. And that if a group, a certain group within the African-
    American community, let's say, has amassed this wealth and then has to
    reinvest it, to the extent that they can also help to create this larger
    middle class while helping themselves and doing something, that's a good
    thing.
        I think you can say that and still respect John's decision, which I think we all do, and respect any other
    individual decisions that would cross racial lines. But the effort to
    create a middle class, people whose names will never be in the newspaper
    but who helped to build a big, stable society, I think that's a very
    important goal for us here.
        Mr. Ley. Do you think athletes have a special
    responsibility to have a social conscience to act, to be involved in the
    communities, or is that unfair?
        The President. No, I don't think it's unfair. I think--first of all,
    I think anybody with a special gift has a special responsibility. And if
    you've got a special gift, whatever the gift is--if you're a great
    singer, if you're great at making money, if you're a brilliant
    scientist--I think if you have a special gift, if God gave you something
    that other people don't normally have, and no matter how hard they work
    they can't get there, then you owe more back. That's what I believe. So,
    yes, I believe that.

    [After a commercial break, Mr. Ley asked Mr. Green about access to the
    power structure elite

    [[Page 563]]

    in the NFL. Mr. Green responded that there needed to be equal access and
    opportunity for ownership of teams. Mr. Brown suggested that acquiring
    ownership was simply a matter of amassing enough money, and that
    African-Americans needed to pool their economic clout to attain the
    power ownership provides. Mr. Thompson agreed, saying that the lack of
    strong relationships between financial institutions and the African-
    American community undermined participation at the ownership level. Ms.
    Joyner-Kersee noted that companies like Nike and sports celebrities
    Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods, who endorsed Nike products, used their
    wealth and fame to give back to the community. Mr. Brown reiterated his
    position, suggesting that African-Americans pool their resources to form
    a capital base. Mr. Ley then took a question from audience member
    Fernando Tamayo, a senior at Washington High
    School, who pointed out that Hispanic-Americans had not yet been
    mentioned, although they were the fastest growing minority in America.
    Mr. Lopez agreed and asserted that the more the Hispanic community
    worked together, the more opportunity they would get.]

        The President. Let me make one observation about this. Hispanic-
    Americans are the fastest growing ethnic group in our country.
    Historically, they have done very well in America through an enormous
    work ethic and an enormous commitment to family.
        There was a wonderful movie a couple of years ago with Edward James
    Olmos and a number of other Hispanic actors and actresses called ``Mi
    Familia.'' It was a wonderful movie; some of you may have seen it. But
    we have a problem today that athletics could play a role in solving with
    the Hispanic community, and I hope we'll get into this a little more in
    the last section--that is, what about all the athletes whose names you
    never know, who play in junior high or high school or college or even in
    the pros? And what about the rest of their lives? I hope we can talk
    about that a little bit before we leave.
        But last year, for the first time in modern history, the graduation
    rates from high school of African-Americans and white Americans were
    virtually identical--the first time ever. The graduation rates of
    Hispanics is much lower; the dropout rate is higher. Part of that is
    because there has been a heritage in Hispanic immigrant families of kids
    dropping out of school and going to work to support the family.
        The problem is, today if you don't have a high school diploma and a
    couple years of college, it's hard to get a job where your income grows
    over time. So one of the things that I'm hoping is that we'll have more
    Hispanic young people in athletic programs and at least in high school;
    that will get more coaches to convince them and their brothers and
    sisters to stay in high school and hopefully go on to college. Because
    America is not going to function very well if we have a Hispanic dropout
    rate that's 20 percent higher than the rest of society.

    [Mr. Lopez agreed, saying that although basketball got him into college,
    he wanted his education to make him more than just an athlete and he
    hoped to use his education and success in ways that would give back to
    his community. Audience member Martin Garcia,
    a senior at Jesse H. Jones Senior High School, asked Mr. Moores why
    Little League baseball was not promoted in the inner cities. Mr. Moores
    responded that it was a good question and that the country would benefit
    from more support at that level. Mr. Morgan agreed and said that
    resources in the United States were not adequately tapped, as in foreign
    countries, for recruitment of baseball players. He noted the success of
    basketball and its outreach programs for inner-city youth and urged
    baseball to do the same.]

        The President. I just wanted to follow up on something Joe said and
    something that the questioner said because he made a slightly different
    point. You know, we had one of the best World Series last year we've had
    in a month of Sundays. I mean, everybody loved the World Series--it goes
    down to the last game, at the end of the game. And everybody was
    thrilled with the story of the young Cuban pitcher and how his mother
    finally got out of Cuba to come watch him pitch. And he's saying, ``But
    I've got a brother at home who's an even better pitcher than I am.'' And
    as strained as our relationships with Cuba are, it's virtually more
    likely that you can be a Cuban player in Major League baseball than a
    Cuban-American from Miami or New Jersey.
        And so it's not just African-Americans. You've got all these
    Hispanic-Americans here who are in inner cities. And we now have got
    some very exciting Asian--Japanese players in Major League baseball. But
    America is full of Asian

    [[Page 564]]

    immigrants. And, the baseball folks who are here, I really think that we
    haven't answered it fully. The truth is that there are tens of thousands
    of kids in every State in this country who are not in any kind of
    athletic program unless they're in a football or basketball program.
        Now, the mayor here and the former
    mayor, Mr. Lanier, who is also here, he started a
    program with thousands of inner-city kids in soccer and golf programs.
    And it may be that--I'm just saying that maybe one specific thing that
    could come out of this meeting is if we could actually bring baseball
    back to kids that aren't in the football or basketball programs, it
    might be a great gift to the future.

    [After a commercial break, Mr. Johnson asked those on the panel in
    administrative or ownership positions why athletes had difficulty
    getting positions with the organizations after their playing days were
    over. He also asked if NFL owners would give an African-American-owned
    franchise equal opportunity. Mr. Policy responded that the Nation was
    awakening to problems in race relations, including inequities in the
    sports business, and was taking steps to correct them. Audience member
    Dennis S. Brown said that he recalled
    hearing a pro quarterback state that black and white players did not
    shower together, and he asked Mr. Johnson to respond. Mr. Johnson
    replied that his experience was that, for the most part, everybody
    mingled in the locker room and any racial comments there were made
    jokingly and understood that way as well.]

        Mr. Ley. All right, we were at this point
    supposed to be wrapping things up, but the President has graciously
    agreed to spend a little bit more time with us this evening, so we'll
    have a chance to ask some more and answer some more questions.
        The President. That little boy, you'd better ask him, that young
    man----
        Mr. Ley. We're going there, sir.

    [Jesse, a 13-year-old boy who introduced himself as half Mexican-
    American and half Irish, asked Mr. Morgan if he ever discouraged
    minority youths from focusing on professional sports as a goal and
    encouraged them to concentrate instead on school. Mr. Morgan answered
    that he felt it was good to encourage a mix of the two, that succeeding
    in both areas was not impossible. Mr. Thompson asserted that if
    opportunity was provided, people would be educated, but that too many
    young people did not see opportunity ahead and therefore did not work
    hard in school. Audience member Tiffany Singleton, a senior at a high school in Houston, asked Ms.
    Joyner-Kersee if she felt doubly obligated to carry expectations as both
    a woman and an African-American. Ms. Joyner-Kersee said she put no added
    pressure on herself but hoped her achievements inspired others. Audience
    member Matt Sharp, a junior at Elks Lake High
    School, then asked the President if it was fair for minority athletes
    who were only average students and whose SAT's were low to get
    scholarships over white students who were not athletes but excelled
    academically.]

        The President. Let me answer the question. I had a problem in
    California when they voted--and California has been very good to me, but
    the people and I disagree with these things--[laughter]. California
    voted to repeal their affirmative action admissions policy. And I made
    the argument that they would give a minority athlete a scholarship under
    the new system because of his or her athletic ability and have another
    member of a minority group who had higher grades and higher SAT scores,
    but no athletic ability, couldn't get a scholarship. So it wasn't just a
    race issue.
        Let me say what I think about that. First of all, I think colleges
    and universities have a right to have athletic programs and they have to
    recruit if they want to have them. The real issue is we should have a
    system in America, since we now know that it is necessary to have at
    least 2 years of education after high school if you want to have even a
    good job with a growing income for younger people, and it's better--we
    have a vested interest of the Nation in seeing that every young person
    like you gets to go to college. What I've tried to do is make sure that
    money would never be an obstacle to anyone, and that's really ultimately
    the way to resolve that. Every college and university has to make up its
    mind; do they want to have an athletic program; then they'll want to
    compete for the best athletes--they're going to do that. But it should
    never, ever be at the expense of providing academic opportunities to
    people who are qualified.
        Let me just say, since I've been in office, we passed a HOPE
    scholarship, which gives everybody a $1,500 tax credit for the first 2
    years of college, tuition and tax credits for junior and

    [[Page 565]]

    senior year and graduate school. We've got more Pell grants, more work-
    study positions, more national service positions--we've got more
    opportunity. And, I think--I'll say this--for me, that's the answer. I
    don't think--otherwise, a college simply can't have an athletic program
    or recruit its athletes.
        My view is they ought to be able to recruit athletes, but they ought
    to give enough scholarships so that every young, gifted person who can
    get admitted to the school should be able to go without regard to the
    money that they or their families have. That's what I believe.

    [After a commercial break, Mr. Thompson responded to Matt's question,
    saying that students from wealthy families and children of alumni also
    received special preference from universities. Mr. Ley then asked the
    President to summarize his thoughts on the meeting.]

        The President. Well, I feel better about my country than I did
    before we started. And I think all of you do, don't you? [Applause]
        I want to applaud the panelists for their candor and their honesty.
    I want to thank the members of the audience for the questions that were
    asked.
        I want to say just two things. Number one, I think it's obvious that
    athletics in a way is leading America toward a more harmonious, united
    society, but we still have work to do--in the coaching ranks and the
    management and the scouting and all of that. We ought to keep working on
    it.
        The second thing I'd like to say is, I hope that everybody who's in
    an athletic program also learns good life skills to make good choices,
    good decisions; can take something out of the teamwork, the rules of
    things that you get from being in athletics so that if they play in high
    school but not in college that they're still better off and they're
    better citizens.
        The same thing if they play in college, not in pros. The same thing
    when they finish their pro career. We didn't talk much about that
    tonight, but I think that's important--that the lessons learned from
    athletics carry over into good citizenship, including attitudes about
    people of different races. If that happens, we're going to be a lot
    better off.

    Note: The President spoke at 7 p.m. in the Cullen Theater at Wortham
    Theater Center. In his remarks, he referred to Mayor Lee Patrick Brown
    and former Mayor Bob Lanier of Houston. The townhall meeting was
    broadcast live on the ESPN cable network as ``Sports and Race: Running
    in Place?'' The meeting was part of ``One America: The President's
    Initiative on Race.''