    [Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: William J. Clinton (1998, Book I)]
    [May 16, 1998]
    [Pages 776-779]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]

    Interview With Prime Minister Tony Blair of the United Kingdom by John
    King of the Cable News Network in Weston-under-Lizard
    May 16, 1998

    Northern Ireland Peace Process

        Mr. King. Let me start by thanking both of you for sharing some time
    on what is obviously a very busy day. We're in the closing days of the
    campaign for the peace initiative in Northern Ireland, and suddenly
    there seems to be apprehension, a lot of opposition. You see some
    slippage in the public opinion polls, the critics saying that you see
    these people, terrorists, criminals, at rallies being hailed as heroes.
        Each of you, if you could share your thoughts on what you think of
    the tone of the campaign, and do you share that apprehension? And how do
    you counter the message of those who say, vote no?
        Prime Minister Blair. I think before we get a vote as important as
    this, there is bound to be a lot of apprehension, consideration by
    people, and it's right that they treat this seriously, because it
    affects their future. And one of the fascinating things is there has
    been very little debate in this referendum campaign about the
    institutional structure, the Northern Ireland Assembly, the relationship
    with the Republic of Ireland, because the thing has wrecked every
    attempt to have a peace agreement in Northern Ireland for the past 50,
    60 years. Instead, people are worried, as you say, about things like
    prisoners.
        But as I say to people, when you look at the facts, these guys who
    were out on the platform the other day under day-release schemes, they
    were done years ago. The vast majority of prisoners will be out within a
    few years anyway. And in the end, people have got to look at the package
    as a whole and say, ``What is the best for the future: to have stability
    and prosperity and the chance to bring up your children with some
    prospect of staying in Northern Ireland and doing well, or to slip back
    into the ways that Northern Ireland knew for decade upon decade of
    division and bitterness and hatred?''
        President Clinton. I think some of the reservation has come from
    people who wonder: Well, is there some sort of trick here; can somebody
    have it both ways; can they be part of the political life of the
    country; and can they sort of condone violence? And I can tell you, at
    least from America's point of view, the answer to that is no. Anybody
    who resorts to violence will have no friends in the United States. I
    don't care what side they're on or what their heritage is or what their
    previous ties are.
        And I think I can speak for the overwhelming majority of Irish-
    Americans in both the Catholic and Protestant communities, that all we
    have

    [[Page 777]]

    ever wanted was a just peace. This peace embodies the principle of
    consent. It gives the Irish people of both traditions the right to chart
    their future in Northern Ireland and to make of it what they will. I
    think, if it is embraced, you'll see a big increase in involvement of
    Irish-Americans and other Americans eager to invest in Northern Ireland,
    eager to lift prosperity and to show people the benefits of peace.
        And so I very much hope that they will take that leap of faith and
    ask themselves a simple question: What is the downside risk of going
    forward? It is so much lower than the downside risk of blowing this
    opportunity.
        Mr. King. You, at one point, considered visiting at the end of this
    trip, going to Northern Ireland, to the Republic of Ireland, decided
    not, perhaps that it would be viewed as meddling. Now in the last 24 to
    48 hours, you've decided to speak out again forcefully, publicly. Why
    did you feel that necessary? And in your view, what role can you play in
    that process?
        And sir, what role do you think the people of Ireland will consider
    as they listen to the American President?
        President Clinton. Well, I decided to speak out because I think that
    the people of Northern Ireland know that I care a lot about the peace
    process, that the United States has been involved in it, that we've
    tried to not only--I think it's important to point out not only has Mr.
    Adams, the Sinn Fein leader, been to the United
    States a lot, but I have spent far more time with Mr. Trimble and other leaders, Unionist leaders, than any American
    President ever has.
        I've tried to listen to both sides, to learn, to just encourage them
    to make their own peace and chart their own future. And so I think it's
    appropriate for me to speak out. I just was afraid if I went there--I
    can remember when people from outside used to come to my home State and
    try to influence elections. It never worked, because in the end voters
    instinctively know they have to live with the consequences of their
    decision. So that's different.
        But if a journalist like you asks me a question about what I think
    the arguments are, I think that it's important for me to answer. And I
    hope that people on all sides of the issue will listen to what I have to
    say, because at least I have some experience here; I know something
    about this. I know something about what happened in Bosnia; I know
    something about what happened in the Middle East; I know something about
    people who are divided and the difference in peace and war, or peace and
    sort of purgatory with violence. And peace has unfailingly been better,
    in the toughest of circumstances.
        Mr. King. As to people who actually get a vote listen to him, your
    friend, why should they listen to him?
        Prime Minister Blair. I think people do listen because people know
    the President is sincere, deeply committed, and actually knowledgeable
    about what has happened in Northern Ireland. And I can say, right from
    the time I became Prime Minister, but actually before that when the
    President visited Northern Ireland in 1995 I think it was, that his
    visit made a huge impact. People felt that he was someone that
    understood. Perhaps more than any other American President, people
    really feel that President Clinton both understands, knows, and people,
    they can also feel his willing them to do well. And I think people
    certainly will listen to that very much.
        Mr. King. As you look forward to this vote, take us back if you
    will. You have described this process as agonizingly difficult. In the
    last few hours, you had a series of transatlantic conversations
    yourselves. Mr. President, you were on the phone with Mr. Adams I
    believe twice, Mr. Trimble at least once, John Hume. Can you take us
    inside those conversations, pacing, raising your voice? You had people
    on each side that, ``Nevermind, I can't do this. I'm going to back
    out.'' How did you keep it together, and how did you interrelate
    personally as you went through this process?
        Prime Minister Blair. Well, I don't think it was so much a question
    of raising our voice or--obviously, these are conversations that you
    have with people at a particularly difficult moment, and you don't go
    right back over them the whole time. But I think in many ways what I
    found was tremendously useful in respect to the President's intervention
    was that people did and do respect his views on it, because, obviously
    in part, he's the President of the United States, but actually it's more
    to do with him personally, having shown commitment all the way through,
    having listened to all sides in the conflict, and therefore having some
    standing because of this own personal commitment, some credibility, if
    you like, to say to people, ``Look, the eyes of the world are upon us.
    Let's see if we can go for this thing and make it happen.''

    [[Page 778]]

        Mr. King. And as Thursday night turned to Good Friday, at any point
    did you think: This isn't going to happen; it's going to collapse?
        Prime Minister Blair. I'm afraid I thought that pretty regularly, at
    about hourly intervals. But in the end--I mean, what always comes back
    home to me is we're 2 years off the year 2000; there is so much
    happening in the world, so many changes that I've seen in the last 10 or
    15 years of my lifetime. I can't believe 2 years off the millennium that
    a place like Northern Ireland, which has got this extraordinary
    potential, where the people are tremendous people, as you know if you've
    been there, I cannot believe we can't find a way to live with each other
    2 years off the new millennium with all the changes in the world, with
    all the possibilities there are. So even though a lot of the time I was
    sitting there thinking, ``Can we really make this happen,'' I have a
    sort of inner optimism about it.
        Mr. King. And what was your message in those phone calls? You were
    probably half asleep as you started some of them.
        President Clinton. Well, first of all, I just--when I talked to
    Prime Minister Blair or Prime Minister Ahern or
    George Mitchell, I was mostly listening.
    But when I talked to the parties, what I heard from them actually was
    very like what you're hearing from the general public now. It was sort
    of the darkness before the dawn. It was like, ``Okay, we made this deal,
    and oh, there's a few things down the road that we'd like to improve,''
    but what they really needed was not me to talk about the specifics; what
    they really needed was for me to remind them of the big picture, that it
    was time to join hands and jump off the diving board together and get in
    the pool and swim to shore.
        And I say that not in a disrespectful way but in a respectful way.
    It's very hard, once you've been estranged from people for a long time,
    to overcome your fears and distrust. And as I have said repeatedly, I'll
    never forget Prime Minister Rabin telling me before Israel signed the
    agreement with the PLO, that everybody was reluctant to do it, but you
    don't make peace with your friends. You have to make peace with those
    and then make them your friends, because of the estrangement of the
    past. That's what I want people to think about.
        If every voter in Northern Ireland says, ``What are we going to look
    like in 2000, and what's it going to look like in 2010,'' Britain here--
    Mr. Blair is the President of the EU in this cycle. Britain leading the
    united Europe; Ireland a part of the united Europe with one of the best
    reforming economies, the Republic of Ireland; Northern Ireland, where
    Britain and Ireland join in some sort of fashion no matter what decision
    they make.
        Now, they're going to be at the vortex of something very, very big,
    if they can just liberate themselves it could change the past. They
    don't have to give up their traditions; they can value them. They've
    agreed to the principle of consent. They have set up a mechanism by
    which they can chart their own future. What remains is really just to
    take the leap of faith and realize that the risk of going forward is
    infinitesimal, tiny, compared to the risk of letting this opportunity
    slip away.

    Nuclear Proliferation in South Asia

        Mr. King. We're short on time, so if I could ask each of you in
    closing, tensions in another part of the world have been a major theme
    of discussion here at your meeting, the Pakistani Prime Minister today
    saying he was disappointed in the communique relating to condemning
    India for the nuclear test. If I could ask each of you your reaction to
    that and how you see that process going forward in the days ahead.
        Prime Minister Blair. It's a very strong statement in the
    communique, condemning the Indian nuclear tests and, what's more,
    putting strong pressure on India to sign up unconditionally for the
    Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty and the Non-Proliferation Treaty. And I
    urge Pakistan now, as we all do in our communique, not to follow them
    down that route because the world is a dangerous enough place as it is,
    and we fear for the future if these nuclear tests carry on.
        President Clinton. Well, first, it's the strongest possible
    statement we could have gotten. Some of our members are philosophically
    opposed to the imposition of sanctions under virtually any
    circumstances. And as you know, the United States, Japan, Canada,
    perhaps others will follow, did impose economic sanctions. But it's a
    strong statement. What we have now to do is to build on it. We have to
    tell the Pakistanis, ``If you're willing to not go down this road, which
    we believe is a loser, let's work together to try to define a way to
    protect your security without becoming a nuclear power.''

    [[Page 779]]

        And we have to go back to the Indians and say, ``Let's find a way to
    protect your security and honor the greatness of your democracy without
    becoming a nuclear power. This is a bad thing, but let's minimize this.
    This is not a good thing for the world. The Russians and the Americans,
    we're trying to lower our nuclear arsenals. We're trying to make this
    problem go away for the world. And we do not need to just have a whole
    lot of other people with smaller nuclear arsenals on the assumption that
    they'll never be used. You can't do that.''
        Mr. King. Thank you both.
        President Clinton. Thank you.

    Note: The interview began at 5:10 p.m. in the Weston Park estate. In his
    remarks, the President referred to Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams; Ulster
    Unionist Party leader David Trimble; Prime Minister Bertie Ahern of
    Ireland; and former Senator George J. Mitchell, independent chairman of
    the multiparty talks in Northern Ireland. Mr. King referred to Social
    Democratic and Labour Party leader John Hume; and Prime Minister Nawaz
    Sharif of Pakistan. A tape was not available for verification of the
    content of this interview.