    [Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: William J. Clinton (1998, Book I)]
    [April 1, 1998]
    [Pages 486-489]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]

    [[Page 486]]

    Interview With Sam Donaldson of ABC News for
    ``Prime Time Live'' in Dakar, Senegal
    April 1, 1998

    Jonesboro Incident

        Mr. Donaldson. Mr. President, thanks very much for coming. Why do
    you think it happened the other day in Jonesboro? I mean, the police
    have taken into custody two young boys, 13 and 11, and that's just
    stunning.
        The President. I don't know why it happened. And I think we're going
    to have to wait until we hear something from those young men or their
    spokespeople, their lawyers or their parents or somebody, to know more
    than we now know.
        But it is troubling that this has happened, this school-related
    violence, now three times in three States, resulting in the deaths of
    children, in the last few months. For me, this was especially hard
    because I spent a lot of time in my life in Jonesboro, Arkansas, and the
    people there have been very good to me, and we've done a lot of things
    together.
        I could barely look at that service in the convocation center,
    because that convocation center was built as a place of joy and
    celebration. When I was Governor, it was one of the biggest issues in my
    campaign in 1982 that I would build that convocation center. And to see
    it housing all those people in all their grief, it was very sad.
        But I think we have to work on two things. I think we have to first
    of all support the people there, moving from their heartbreak to healing
    and to getting their hope back. And then I think the Attorney
    General and the Secretary of Education have got to get all the available information on
    these three incidents and any others like it, and then see if there is a
    pattern and whether, from that pattern, we can draw some conclusions
    about what we should do.
        Mr. Donaldson. When I was a little kid I can remember I'd get angry,
    and maybe you did too, in the schoolyard or something, but it never
    occurred to me to plan something like that.
        The President. No. That's why I think we can't know. I mean, there
    is all kinds of speculation. I think it's just too early to assign
    blame, but I think everyone should examine the issues. I think every
    parent should redouble his or her efforts to teach their children right
    from wrong and to warn them about the dangers of guns, I think not only
    in the South but throughout the country where there are a lot of guns
    because people like to hunt and enjoy it and regularly teach their
    children at a fairly early age. I think I was 12 the first time I fired
    a .22.
        Mr. Donaldson. And you're a hunter?
        The President. Yes. I don't do it much anymore, but I think I was
    about 12 years old. But you know, there has to be some extra care taken,
    where children are hunting, to make sure they understand gun safety and
    also the profound dangers of it.
        And finally I think all this effort that's been made in the last few
    years to get the television ratings on violence and have movies
    evaluated for violence, I think we maybe even need to go underneath that
    and examine whether, in scenes of violence in movies and television, we
    have to be very careful not to either glorify it or minimize it, make it
    look almost cartoon-like.
        I'll never forget what the principal at
    Jonesboro told me when we talked after I called her. She said, ``You
    know, when I went out there and I saw those children lying on the ground
    and I saw one of them horribly disfigured and all those people gushing
    blood, it was very different from what I see in the movies,'' she said.
        Mr. Donaldson. Well, we have movies that are violent and--``L.A.
    Confidential'' has won a lot of awards; remember a few years ago,
    ``Fargo''--and television programs on the networks are violent. Do you
    think there would be something to just saying to Hollywood and to
    everybody involved, ``Guys, cut it out, or at least cut it down?''
        The President. Well, what I think about the violence is--and again,
    I'm not an expert, which is one reason I'd like to see them review all
    the literature--I think the sheer volume of things to which children at
    an early age are exposed tends to numb their feelings about it. We do
    have studies on that. So maybe cutting it down is one good thing.

    [[Page 487]]

        The other thing, I think, is if--a lot of these stories require the
    presentation of some violence, and it is a part of life. It's a part of
    a lot of the stories. If a story line requires the presentation of
    violence, then I think it ought not to either be glorified or
    cartoonized, if you will. People need to understand it's a serious thing
    with horrible consequences, because one of the problems with children,
    of course, and one of the reasons we assign different levels of
    responsibility to people as they get older, for their actions, is they
    can't often fully understand the consequences of their actions. So you
    have to bend over backwards to make sure--we adults do--that we've done
    everything we can to make sure they do understand the consequences of
    certain actions as we present those consequences to them.
        Mr. Donaldson. On that point, it's said that one of these little
    boys is just now devastated, frightened, said to be frightened, calling
    for his mother. It's as if suddenly his eyes came open, and he was
    horrified with what he saw.
        The President. Well, as I said, we don't know enough about that.
    That may well be true. But these
    children that have been arrested, there
    will have to be psychological profiles done on them. We'll have to have
    a lot more facts before we can draw any conclusions. I've tried to be
    real careful about that. I think all Americans should.
        But we know generally we need to make sure there are no guns in
    schools. We need to enforce the youth handgun act we passed in 1994. And
    we need to do everything we can to teach the kids right from wrong. And
    in the places where hunting is a part of the culture and where there are
    guns around the house, those of us who have been a part of that culture,
    and those who are, have a special responsibility to make sure that the
    guns are kept out of reach of people who shouldn't have them. And we
    need to get these child safety locks on all these handguns and other
    guns that we can. And we need to support constant drilling about safe
    use and what the consequences are, because this is a tragedy that will
    take a long time to get over.
        Mr. Donaldson. You know, in Arkansas as well as several other
    States, these two young boys, if in fact they happened to have been, as
    the police believe, involved in this and are charged, cannot be tried as
    adults, which would mean that they will get out, if they're
    incarcerated, at age 18 or 21 at the latest. And already some of the
    relatives are saying that wouldn't be justice. What do you say?
        The President. Well, that's something of course we'll have to
    review. But most States have lowered the age at which people at least
    can be tried as adults. In our State, in Arkansas, the way it works is a
    determination can be made--the prosecutor can ask and then a court can
    decide that a young person under the age of 18, but 14 or over, could be
    tried as adults if the circumstances warranted.
        It looks to me like one of the things this case will do is probably
    launch a debate in America about whether there should be some
    intermediate step. That is: Okay, maybe people below a certain age
    shouldn't be tried as adults, but should there be some means of keeping
    them incarcerated after their 18th or their 20th birthday if the
    circumstances warrant that, either the severity of the crime or concern
    about their mental condition and stability, should they be released.
        Again, I'll make no judgment on the facts of this case, but I think
    that there will be a serious debate about that.
        But the real thing is, I'll say again, is to try to prevent things
    like this from happening in the first place. You just have to--we have
    to work very, very hard at hammering home to our children what the
    consequences of using guns are. We have to keep the guns out of the
    hands of the kids that shouldn't--when they shouldn't have them. We need
    to make sure that the gun safety practices are very strong. They need to
    be kept out of the hands of kids. The child safety locks ought to be on
    them wherever possible.
        And then, again, I'm hopeful that the Attorney General and the Secretary of Education, when they get all the facts of the these three cases and,
    as I said, any others if there are others out there, that they will show
    a pattern--practice maybe that will tell us something else we can do, if
    not legislation, then practice, that will reduce the chances that this
    will happen.
        Mr. Donaldson. What is your hunch? Do you think we're in for an
    epidemic? I mean, there are copycat crimes, as you know. Until these
    three incidents that you referred to, I don't recall another one.
        The President. Well, I don't know. I hope they're--I hope not. I
    think, actually, that the kind of publicity that this incident is
    getting, and the fact that it's now kind of--America is

    [[Page 488]]

    now aware that this is the third of three such incidents, may break
    whatever spell there might be out there for copycats.
        I know we were concerned several years ago, when I was Governor of
    Arkansas, when we had some children commit suicide in a small community
    like Jonesboro, deeply religious, hard-working community. And there
    seemed to be a little rash around America at the time of children
    killing themselves. So everybody got together and worked on it, tried to
    highlight it.
        I would be surprised if there is a rash of this, but I would also be
    surprised if there is not a real effort now on the part of individuals
    and communities and schools to take actions that will reduce the chance
    that it will happen again. I also think that in the community at large
    and in our schoolrooms, in our churches, in our homes now, everybody is
    going to be a little more sensitive for children that seem to be
    withdrawing, seem to be troubled, that seem to be confused.
        Again I say, the only really satisfactory response to all this is to
    try to do those things which will prevent these things from happening in
    the first place. Once they happen, you do the best you can to do justice
    in the particular case, but that's not nearly as good as trying to do
    those things which will keep them from happening again.
        Mr. Donaldson. You're on a very important trip, as you see it, to
    Africa, and a lot of other people agree with you, but did you consider
    at all perhaps going back for the service?
        The President. I thought about it. But when I realized that they--
    when I understood that they were willing to--wanted me to present a
    videotape, I thought it was the responsible thing to do, because I
    thought I could do more good for the country by finishing this trip, and
    I think that was the right decision.
        I wanted to be there, not only because it was in my home State and
    it was a heartbreaking, mammoth, awful thing, but I have spent an
    inordinate amount of time in that part of Arkansas. The mayor in the town has been my friend a long time, the
    county judge, and all these people that
    I've known forever. I just--it was an awful thing for me personally, and
    I just grieve for those people.
        Mr. Donaldson. What can you say to them? What do you say to parents
    who have lost a child this way, or to the relatives of the teacher who
    was killed? Is there anything that can be said?
        The President. I don't have anything to say other than what I said
    in my message to them right now. I think that their friends need to hold
    them close, and they need to just--it takes a long time to heal. And one
    of the things that I have learned even more since I've been President is
    that a lot of things happen in this life that cannot be explained or
    justified, and lot of living is overcoming the unjustifiable, the
    madness, and somehow going on.
        I would say that I believe the children who perished and the teacher
    who perished, from all reports, had lived extremely good lives and were
    extremely good people, and they would want their parents, their
    siblings, the spouses--the young teacher's husband--they would want them
    to go on living, to look for positive things to live for, to be grateful
    for the time they had with the children and the teacher.
        And at some point you have to lay down the loss. You can never give
    it up. You can never stop hurting. You can never stop missing. But a
    choice has to be made to go on and to make the most of whatever is left
    in life. And I think that's what most people--most good people who die
    too young in an unfair way, if they could speak across space and time to
    their loved ones, would try to lift them up and ease their pain. They
    wouldn't want them to stay in the grip of hatred. They wouldn't want
    them to be paralyzed by grief. So I hope they'll be able to find peace
    and healing and go on.

    President's Trip to Africa

        Mr. Donaldson. Finally, Mr. President, are you happy to be going
    tomorrow?
        The President. You bet. I'm really glad--I'm getting tired now.
    We've worked very hard on this trip. But it's been a good thing for our
    country, I think. It certainly has been an enlightening experience, I
    believe, for everyone on this trip. I've been immensely impressed by the
    energy, the intelligence, the passion of the people I've met in
    positions of power and in the small villages in the countryside.
        And I think that we can make a strong partnership with people in
    Africa that we will need in the 21st century. Among other things, I
    think most Americans were surprised to learn that American investment in
    Africa earns a return of 30 percent a year, which is higher than
    investment on any other continent. We can do

    [[Page 489]]

    well for ourselves by making a good partnership with Africa, and I hope
    as we go home there will be broad bipartisan support for continuing to
    deepen this partnership. And I hope it will be followed by a lot of
    private citizens, business people, and others coming over here and
    getting involved.
        There is a lot to be done here and a great future here, and I want
    us to be a part of it.
        Mr. Donaldson. Thank you, Mr. President. Thanks for sitting down
    with us.
        The President. Thank you, Sam.

    Note: The interview began at 8:45 p.m. at Le Meridien President Hotel.
    In his remarks, he referred to Andrew Golden, 11, and Mitchell Johnson,
    13, accused killers in the Jonesboro, AR, middle school murders; Karen
    Curtner, principal, Westside Middle School; Mayor Hubert A. Brodell of
    Jonesboro; and Roy (Red) Bearden, Craighead County judge. A tape was not
    available for verification of the content of this interview.