[Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: William J. Clinton (1997, Book II)]
[September 26, 1997]
[Pages 1239-1242]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]



Interview With Tom Joyner, Tavis Smiley, and Sybil Wilkes on the
Tom Joyner Morning Show in Little Rock
September 26, 1997

    Mr. Joyner. Mr. President, good morning.
    The President. Good morning. You're having a lot of fun there for 
this early in the morning. [Laughter]
    Mr. Joyner. And you're having a lot of fun, too, aren't you? Now 
that Chelsea is gone, you all are having some fun, aren't you, Mr. 
President? [Laughter]
    The President. That's what Hillary says.
    Mr. Joyner. See, Sybil? See, Tavis? I told you. [Laughter]
    Ms. Wilkes. But he's the President. He can say that. You can't say 
that about him.

Desegregation of Central High School

    Mr. Joyner. Mr. President, when this happened 40 years ago, how old 
were you?
    The President. Eleven.
    Mr. Joyner. And what was going through your mind when you saw all 
this that was happening here in Little Rock?
    The President. I thought it was a bad thing. I didn't understand why 
people were so upset. But as I said yesterday, most of the white kids 
didn't think about it one way or the other until it actually happened. 
Until the Little Rock Nine were turned away, I think most people didn't 
think about it one way or the other. Children are basically self-
absorbed in their own lives. It's part of the privilege of childhood.
    But then, all of a sudden, kids that had never thought about it 
before, it's all they talked about for weeks. And everybody then had to 
decide really how they felt about it. It seemed obvious to me that 
sooner or later this was going to have to be done; it might as well be 
done sooner.

[[Page 1240]]

    But I also--I was always amazed at how there was an element in the 
South and probably in the rest of the country, too, of people that 
were--they always just needed somebody to hate, needed somebody to look 
down on. But it's no way to run a country and no way to run a life. 
Sooner or later, to me, it was obvious it had to change.
    Ms. Wilkes. Mr. President, there seems to be so much symbolism to 
the fact that you were opening the door yesterday for the members of the 
Little Rock Nine coming through, as well as this year that you have 
stepped before the Nation, before the world, and telling them that you 
are taking this step into the 21st century and making a difference in 
terms of race relations. This is a year in which you are just really 
making us aware and bringing these things out to us. And I commend you 
for that.
    The President. Well, thank you. I think part of the symbolism 
yesterday was that--[applause]--thank you very much. I think yesterday 
part of the importance of the symbolism was that political leaders 
closed the doors and stood in the doors in the fifties and the sixties 
and kept people out of the doors. And apparently, that idea to open the 
door came from the students at Central High themselves. It was a great, 
wonderful idea, and I was glad to be a part of it.
    Mr. Joyner. First of all, to the affiliates of 93 stations around 
the country on the Tom Joyner Morning Show, as you can tell, we are 
running long. We're going to go right through the break. We want you to 
hang with us.
    Mr. President, you said that what happened 40 years ago really 
developed your idea of what race relations in this country should be 
about. At 11 years old, you were thinking race relations?
    The President. Well, it was discussed in my home because my 
grandparents were interested in it. That's what I said yesterday. So I 
had a chance to think about it earlier just because my grandfather 
expressed himself very strongly about it. He had once been a grocer and 
had a lot of black customers, and he knew a lot about black people as 
human beings and about the troubles they were facing and the problems in 
their lives and the potential they had. He thought it was wrong.
    My grandmother was a nurse and she had a lot more contact with black 
people in the fifties than most white people did, and she thought it was 
wrong. And they just had a big impact on me, and they talked about it a 
lot. And even though my grandfather died in 1957, and everybody was 
talking about this happening in the 2 years coming up to that, I still 
remember as a little boy, 9, 10 years old, sitting around the table, 
having him walk through this with me and telling me that this was 
something that had to be done.

School Choice and Integration

    Mr. Smiley. Mr. President, Sybil asked you a moment ago about the 
symbolism of yesterday--this is Tavis--and I want to ask you about the 
substance, if I can. As you know, the two issues that are facing this 
country, certainly facing black America, with regard to education as we 
talk about this incident 40 years ago are the issue of school vouchers 
and this whole issue of resegregation of schools. You know, the NAACP 
was even considering earlier this summer reassessing their position on 
school integration. What are your thoughts specifically on how the issue 
of school vouchers and the issue of school integration are impacting the 
African-American community? Where do you come down on that debate on 
those issues?
    The President. Well, let me say, first of all, school vouchers--that 
is, giving people money that used to go to the school district that they 
can then use and spend in the school district or they can use it to 
defray the cost of tuition to private schools--school vouchers are the 
most extreme version of more school choice for parents and students. I 
have supported for years and years giving students and parents more 
choice for the public schools their kids attend, and also the national 
charter school movement which allows groups of teachers and parents to 
organize schools on their own and be more loosely affiliated with public 
school districts and to meet the special needs of the community, and 
then they can have a lot of freedom from the rules and regulations of 
the school districts and the State as long as they meet high standards. 
I support the school uniform movement which a lot of private schools 
have and which have made a big difference in a lot of school districts.
    The reason I have opposed school vouchers is that I think if you 
look at the facts, it's a relatively small financial contribution to 
give somebody, for example, what the Federal Government gives to a 
school district, but if you

[[Page 1241]]

take it away, you can have a big adverse impact on the school districts 
without helping any individual children very much.
    Now, I will say this: I believe that sooner or later there will be a 
lot of people who will try it, going beyond Milwaukee and, I think, 
Cleveland, unless we can prove that the public schools can work for 
children again. But I think from my point of view, particularly with the 
Federal dollars, I simply don't believe that we should be diverting 
resources when our schools have been relatively underfunded on the 
whole. Instead, we ought to be concentrating on making them excellent.
    On the other hand, there ought to be some competition there. The 
parents ought to have some say, which is why I think they ought to have 
more choice over the schools their kids attend, and they ought to have 
the right to participate in new schools that are outside a lot of the 
bureaucratic rules that burden school districts.
    On the resegregation, I think that my own view is that we ought to 
continue to try to have integrated schools. We ought to recognize that 
segregated neighborhoods and different patterns in who has children of 
school age in various places have led to a resegregation of a lot of our 
schools. We still ought to try to integrate these neighborhoods and mix 
them not only racially but economically. We still ought to have, where 
reasonable, transportation plans that work and aren't too burdensome for 
the kids. But we shouldn't use the fact that a school is not especially 
integrated at this moment as an excuse not to give those kids an 
excellent education and do the very best we can.

Desegregation of Central High School

    Mr. Joyner. Ten years ago, Mr. President, there was a 30-year 
celebration for the Little Rock Nine that you helped organize when you 
were Governor here in the State of Arkansas. It was a lot smaller 
celebration than the one we've had this week, huh?
    The President. It was a lot smaller. I think they enjoyed it, but 
some of them--I'm not sure, you'd have to ask them--but I think there 
were a couple that hadn't been back to Arkansas very much before then. 
But everybody gathered. I wanted them to be able to come to the 
Governor's Mansion because it was the symbol of opposition to their 
efforts, and it was the place where a lot of the plotting was done to 
keep them out of school. I thought it would be a good thing if they came 
into the house that had once shut them out.
    Mr. Joyner. If you were one of them back then, do you think you 
could have had the courage to do what they did, in all that adversity?
    The President. I don't know. Boy, I'd like to think I would have. I 
think we all would like to think we would have. But I think, to be 
honest, none of us can know. You don't know until you're in a situation 
like that. I wish I could say yes, because I certainly would like to 
have been a part of it. And I can tell you this: I'm glad they did. I'm 
certainly glad they did.
    Mr. Smiley. That's why he's the President, Tom, he's smooth, ain't 
he?
    Mr. Joyner. That's right.
    Mr. Smiley. He's smooth.
    Ms. Wilkes. And you know, Mr. President, I think your grandfather 
would be very proud of you for what you have done in terms of stepping 
forward not only yesterday but, as I said before, with taking people and 
making us take stock of ourselves and our relationships with others, 
people that don't look like us. And you've done that certainly in your 
Cabinet and on your staff of people who look like a lot of us that 
listen to the Tom Joyner Morning Show as African-Americans.
    Mr. Smiley. Thank you, sir.
    Mr. Joyner. And we're all FOB's.
    Ms. Wilkes. Yes, we are.
    Mr. Joyner. We're FOB's.
    The President. Thanks, Tom. [Laughter]
    Ms. Wilkes. That would be a Fan of Bill.

Chelsea Clinton

    Mr. Joyner. So how is Chelsea doing in school? Has she called for 
money?
    The President. Well, not for money yet. We've talked to her a couple 
of times, and she's having a good time.
    Miss Dupree. Well, tell her if she needs some campus fashion, Miss 
Dupree got some little cousins who can hook her up. [Laughter]
    Mr. Joyner. Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you for being a guest on 
the show, and thank you for being a part of all of the celebration here 
for the 40th anniversary of the Little Rock Nine. Thank you, sir.
    The President. Thank you. Goodbye, everybody. Thank you.

[[Page 1242]]

Note: The interview began at 8:45 a.m. The President spoke from a 
private residence to the interviewers in the Clinton Ballroom of the 
Excelsior Hotel in Little Rock. Comedienne Jedda Jones also participated 
in the interview, using her on-air name, Miss Dupree.