    [Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: William J. Clinton (1997, Book II)]
    [November 9, 1997]
    [Pages 1519-1528]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]

    [[Page 1519]]

    Interview With Tim Russert of ``Meet the Press''
    November 9, 1997

        Mr. Russert. Mr. President, welcome to ``Meet the Press,'' and thank
    you for helping us celebrate the 50th anniversary.
        The President. Glad to be here, Tim.

    Situation in Iraq

        Mr. Russert. The situation in Iraq seems to grow more and more
    tense. As we sit here tonight and talk, the Deputy Prime Minister has
    said that if the United States resumes spy flights over Iraq, they will
    be shot down. If Saddam Hussein was sitting right here in this seat, you
    would look him in the eye and say what?
        The President. Those flights are United Nations flights, even though
    they're American pilots in those planes, and you cannot dictate to the
    United Nations what we do. They will resume, and if you shoot at them,
    you'll be making a big mistake.
        Mr. Russert. If a plane is shot down by the Iraqis, will that be
    considered an act of war by the United States?
        The President. I believe that's how the Pentagon characterized it. I
    think the important thing is that Saddam Hussein needs to know it would
    be a big mistake. We will not tolerate his efforts to murder our pilots
    acting on behalf of the United Nations under United Nations Security
    Council resolutions.
        Listen, all that man has to do is to let the monitors go back to
    doing their job. I think it's important that the American people
    understand what these monitors are doing. People read this word
    ``UNSCOM'' in the paper, and they don't know--you know, it sounds like a
    bad cold or something. These monitors have been there working since the
    end of the Gulf war to look for weapons of mass destruction or materials
    used to make weapons of mass destruction.
        They have found and destroyed more weapons capacity, the monitors
    have, than were destroyed in the entire Gulf war, which shows you that
    Saddam Hussein has not stopped trying to develop this capacity. After
    all, keep in mind, this is a man who used chemical weapons on the
    Iranians; he used chemical weapons on his own people. And what they're
    doing there is terribly important. We do not want him to have chemical
    or biological weapons capacity. We believe he has the latent capacity to
    produce more SCUD missiles. And we all remember how he aimed the SCUD's
    at Israel during the Gulf war.
        So what they're doing is terribly important. And he needs to let
    them go back and do their job. None of us are going to be bullied by
    him.
        Mr. Russert. Have you ever met him?
        The President. Never.
        Mr. Russert. Do you have any intentions of meeting him?
        The President. No.
        Mr. Russert. If, in fact, the Iraqis are able to keep the American
    inspectors away from their biological warfare, aren't they succeeding?
        The President. Well, that's a different question. The group that we
    sent over there, the U.N. sent over there, to talk to Saddam Hussein, is
    coming back. They're going to make their report. Then I expect the
    United Nations to take very strong and unambiguous action to make it
    perfectly clear that he has to comply.
        Now, in the past, we've been able to work these things out. We've
    been up to this point before and been able to work them out. If he
    doesn't, then the world community will have to take some action.
        Mr. Russert. Will the Russians and the French and the Arab nations
    support the United States?
        The President. Well, what I would hope they would do is support the
    United Nations. The Russians and the French and the Arab States have a
    huge stake in not allowing him to develop and deploy weapons of mass
    destruction. What if he has a missile with the capacity to reach to
    Europe?
        Mr. Russert. Many people are suggesting what he's really up to is to
    try to provoke an attack by the United States, a Tomahawk missile
    attack; then he would kick all the inspectors out and go right back to
    accelerating his campaign of building weapons of mass destruction.
        The President. That may be. He may be trying to divide the coalition
    as well, with the promise that he'll sell oil at good prices and make
    money for other countries. But so far, I have to tell you, I've been
    impressed with the unity of the world community. I think that he picked
    a peculiar way to try to divide the coalition. He seems

    [[Page 1520]]

    to be frustrated that the sanctions haven't been lifted. But all he has
    to do is to allow the inspectors to do their job and quit trying to
    stockpile the ability to make these weapons of mass destruction. That's
    all he's got to do.
        Mr. Russert. We will never have normal relations with Iraq as long
    as Saddam Hussein is there?
        The President. We will never have normal relations with Iraq as long
    as Iraq is out of compliance with these basic resolutions of the United
    Nations. Now, it appears that Saddam Hussein has had several years since
    the Gulf war to put his country in compliance, and he has declined to do
    so.
        Mr. Russert. Do you think there will be the need for military
    strike?
        The President. I don't want to rule anything in or out. I think
    it's--at a moment like this, it's very important that the President
    maintain all options and signal none. And that's where I want to be. But
    I think that Saddam Hussein needs to understand that this is a serious
    business. And this is not just the President of the United States; the
    American people feel this way. And it's not just the American people;
    it's the world community.
        There is a United Nations resolution that says that he has to permit
    inspectors to look into what he's doing to make sure he doesn't again
    develop the capacity to make and deploy weapons of mass destruction.
    He's one of the few people who's done it and used it. And we all have an
    interest in stopping him.
        Mr. Russert. And he will comply eventually?
        The President. He will comply eventually or we'll have to see what
    happens then. It will not be without consequence if he does not comply.

    China and Cuba

        Mr. Russert. You met last week with the President of China, a
    country of 1.5 billion people, 7,000 miles away. Why is it that we meet
    with the President of China and trade with China but don't meet with the
    President of Cuba, 90 miles away, a country of 10 million people? Other
    than the size of the economic market, are there any differences between
    the two systems?
        The President. Oh, yes, I think there are plainly some. For one
    thing, the Chinese have shown a willingness to not only engage us but to
    open up and to work with us. Of course, we have differences with both
    China and Cuba on human rights and on their political system.
        But if you just look at the--what happened in the last meeting with
    President Jiang and myself. We said, first of all, we're going to try to
    work together and establish cooperation, not conflict, as the model for
    U.S.-China relations in the 21st century. China agreed to cooperate with
    us in nuclear matters and to stop transfer of nuclear technologies to
    dangerous states. China agreed to work with us aggressively to try to
    solve the problem on the Korean Peninsula. China has agreed to an energy
    and environmental endeavor with us, which is very important in our
    effort to limit greenhouse gases globally. And for people who are
    concerned about human rights, China agreed to continue to work with us
    in developing rule of law systems, which eventually will clearly lead to
    the protection of individual rights, not just economic rights but other
    rights as well. So we've got this ongoing relationship.
        That's what I wanted to do with Cuba. And when I became President,
    we had the Cuba Democracy Act, which passed before I took office, but I
    supported it. And it enabled the President not only to have a tougher
    economic embargo but also to open up with Cuba, to have a gradually
    evolving relationship. And I was working on that until they illegally
    shot those two planes down and basically murdered those people that were
    in those two planes, which led the Congress to pass the present law.
        So we're at an impasse now. I still want that kind of relationship
    with Cuba. But we have to have some kind of indication that there will
    be an opening up, a movement toward democracy and openness and freedom
    if we're going to do that. And I don't have that indication today.
        Mr. Russert. Do you expect to get anything like that from Fidel
    Castro as long as he's there?
        The President. I'm not sure. We get mixed signals from time to time.
    And he's a highly intelligent man. And I know he spends a lot of time
    thinking about the future. So I wish it could be different than it is.
    But we have to have some basis for opening. It can't be a one-way
    street; there has to be some sense that there's an evolution going on in
    Cuba, and it can turn into a modern state.
        Keep in mind, it is now the only country in our entire hemisphere
    that is not a democracy. And that is a very significant thing.

    [[Page 1521]]

    Fast-Track Trade Legislation

        Mr. Russert. Let me turn to another issue confronting our
    hemisphere, fast-track trade authority. A critical vote tomorrow,
    Sunday, in the House of Representatives, whether or not the President of
    the United States should have the unilateral ability to negotiate trade
    deals throughout our hemisphere. Right now you have less than one out of
    three Democratic votes in the House. Are you going to win that vote?
        The President. I'm not sure yet. It's close, and we're working very
    hard. I worked very late the last several nights. I've been working on
    this for weeks. I worked on it today, and I'll be working on it when we
    finish our interview and I imagine right up to voting time. On the other
    side, the Speaker is working hard to try to get the requisite votes from
    the Republicans.
        It's a difficult issue in the House. In the Senate, we had a
    bipartisan majority in both caucuses; both the Democrats and the
    Republicans voted for it. Among the Governors, virtually every
    Democratic Governor, virtually every Democratic mayor is for it. But the
    House Members, to be fair to them, they feel the pressure of a lot of
    the changes that are happening in this economy. And I think when plants
    close down, there's an automatic assumption sometimes that it's because
    of trade, whether it is or not. And I think that they feel the pressure,
    particularly, on both sides, more than most. And it's tough for them.
        But I think the right thing for America is to continue to tear down
    the trade barriers and sell more American products, to try to lift up
    labor and environmental standards abroad. And then, when people are
    dislocated here, if they lose their job from technology or people don't
    buy the products anymore or trade, whatever the reason is, we need to do
    more, more quickly for them. And I tried to put in place those kinds of
    systems.
        So I think we've had a balanced approach, and I hope we can persuade
    a majority of the House tomorrow that that's the right approach.
        Mr. Russert. Many Democrats took umbrage when you said the vote was
    a no-brainer and that if it was a secret ballot, it would pass easily;
    that perhaps special interests like big labor were forcing them to vote
    publicly other than the way they felt privately.
        The President. No, I didn't say the last. What I said was that I
    thought, in terms of pure economics, if you look at the last 5 years,
    where we've had 13\1/2\ million jobs, we've got the lowest unemployment
    rate in 24 years, we've negotiated over 200 trade agreements, and a
    third of our growth has come from tearing down barriers, I do think
    economically, for the country as a whole, it's a no-brainer. On the
    secret ballot issue, I'm simply repeating what several House Members
    said to me.
        But to be fair, they feel--on every critical vote, Members of
    Congress feel political pressures that may or may not reflect the larger
    economic realities of the country. And I'm sure that that's no different
    than it was on a lot of the other tough votes we've had in the past.
    This is not a question of character; it's a question of judgment. And I
    think that the right judgment is to give the President the authority to
    continue to tear down those trade barriers.
        Mr. Russert. Now, the leader of the Democrats in the House, Dick
    Gephardt, opposes you on this. He said yesterday, ``Please, Mr.
    President, don't trade Democratic values for Republican votes,''
    specifically saying, ``Will you reduce or cut funding for family
    planning across the world in order to win votes.'' Will you?
        The President. No.
        Mr. Russert. Not at all?
        The President. No. We're not going to trade a matter of principle on
    the Mexico City issue to carry fast track. If we can't get the votes
    without that, then we'll have to regroup and try to figure out some
    other way to go forward with fast track, either next week or when
    Congress resumes.
        I have tried my best in working at this to build a bipartisan
    coalition on every major issue that did not ask either the Republicans
    or the Democrats to give up their principles. So we have kept separate
    our negotiations on the census, for example, and our negotiation on the
    so-called Mexico City language from the trade negotiations.
        We have offered a number of compromises that we thought were
    principled, where the Democrats who disagree with the Republicans could
    save our principles, and they could save theirs, where we could both be
    moving forward. So far we haven't succeeded. We're still working at it.

    [[Page 1522]]

    Taxes

        Mr. Russert. Let me turn to the issue of taxes. The Republicans say
    the solution is either a flat tax or a national sales tax. Are you
    prepared to embrace either of those ideas?
        The President. Not tonight. And let me say why. On the flat tax, it
    has enormous appeal to average people, because they wouldn't have to--
    the idea is, even if they lost all--especially if they lost all their
    deductions but paid a lower rate, that they'd never have to have anybody
    help them fill out their taxes again, nor would they ever have to worry
    about whether they were in compliance with the Internal Revenue Service
    laws and regulations again.
        The difficulty there is I have never seen a flat tax proposal that
    was revenue neutral, that is, that kept the balanced budget we've worked
    so hard for now, that didn't impose higher taxes on people with incomes
    below $100,000, and that's most Americans, and that's not fair.
        With the national sales tax, my concern is that, if you shifted to a
    national sales tax, it would raise the price of all products
    dramatically. And we don't know what that would do to inflation in
    America. We don't know whether it could be done without any kind of
    destructive economic consequences. Also, we don't know whether that
    wouldn't be much more regressive for people in the middle and lower
    income working groups.

    Combating Discrimination Based on Sexual Orientation

        Mr. Russert.  Let me turn to a cultural issue. Tonight you will be
    attending a gay rights dinner, the first sitting President in the
    history of the country to do so. What statement are you trying to make?
        The President. Well, Tim, you know, I grew up in the segregated
    South in the forties and fifties. And all my life, from the time I was a
    child, I was taught and I have believed that every person in this
    country, no matter what their differences are, in their lifestyle or
    their race or their religion, if they obey the law, show up for work
    every day or show up for school, if they're good citizens, they ought to
    be treated with respect and dignity and equality. And they should be
    subject to no discrimination in the things that we all have to have
    access to, like education and a job and health care. What I'm trying to
    do is to continue to move that forward.
        I know this is a difficult issue for a lot of Americans. I know that
    particularly for Americans who've never known anyone who was gay or
    lesbian personally, it's an issue that often arouses discomfort. But I
    think it's the right thing to do. I think we have to keep working until
    we say for everybody, the only test should be: Are you a law-abiding,
    hard-working citizen; do you do the things we require of all citizens?
    If you do, you should be subject to no discrimination, and you ought to
    be part of the family of America. That's what I believe. And if my
    presence there tonight advances that goal, then that's a good thing.
        Mr. Russert. Do you believe that homosexuality should be taught in
    schools as an acceptable alternative lifestyle?
        The President. No, I don't think it should be advocated. I don't
    think it should be part of the public school curriculum.
        But on the other hand, I don't believe that anyone should teach
    schoolchildren that they should hate or discriminate against or be
    afraid of people who are homosexuals. That is the real issue. The real
    issue is the one that we're going to take up next week at the White
    House with the hate crimes conference. We're going to have the first
    hate crimes conference ever at the White House next week. And we're
    going to deal with that, not only against homosexuals but against other
    groups of Americans.
        I don't believe that we should be in the business of ratifying or
    validating or politicizing the issue. I think the real problem in
    America is still continuing discrimination and fear and downright
    misunderstanding.
        Mr. Russert.  Now, Vice President Gore caused a stir when he said
    that Ellen, the TV star who will be honored tonight at the dinner--he
    said, quote, ``millions of Americans were forced to look at sexual
    orientation in an open light.'' Was Vice President Gore correct?
        The President. Well, I think when she did that on television, and
    you got to see the interplay with her family and her friends who were
    not homosexual, you got to see all that--I think for many Americans who
    themselves had never had a personal experience, never had a friend or a
    family member who's a homosexual, it did give them a chance to see it in
    a new light. So I think he was accurate about that.
        My experience in life--all I can tell you is what my experience is--
    and I'm not talking about as President, I'm talking about as a citizen

    [[Page 1523]]

    now, as a person--is that most people's attitudes about how homosexuals
    should be treated really are determined more than anything else based on
    whether they have ever known someone who is homosexual. Now, whether
    most people's attitudes about whether the lifestyle should be condoned
    or condemned is a function, perhaps, of their religious training. But
    we're not talking about people's religious convictions here. We're
    talking about how people in the public arena, as citizens, should be
    treated in terms of their right to education, to jobs, to housing, and
    to be treated free of discrimination. And that is the agenda that I want
    to further for all Americans. And that is what I think we ought to be
    focusing on.

    Administration Accomplishments

        Mr. Russert. In preparing for this interview, we went out and talked
    to thousands of American viewers, voters, with a poll, and we asked some
    interesting questions. The first was, what do you think the best
    accomplishments were of the Clinton administration?
        And let me show it to you on the screen and I'm going to read from
    there: protecting Medicare and education, 30 percent; improving economy
    and creating jobs, 23; keeping the U.S. at peace, 13; balancing the
    budget, 13. Would you agree with that list?
        The President. That's a pretty good list. I think the--what I've
    tried to do is to give the American people the confidence that if we
    follow the right policies and we all do the right things, we can make
    America work again, and we can actually prepare our country for the 21st
    century.
        So I think the economy is an important accomplishment. I think the
    role we played in contributing to the declining crime rate, the role we
    played in moving people off welfare into work, and the role we played
    passionately in not only protecting Medicare and education but trying to
    reform Medicare and trying to improve the quality of education and the
    access of all Americans to college, I think those will be some enduring
    legacies of the administration.

    Stock Market

        Mr. Russert. Are you worried about the roller-coaster stock market?
        The President. No. The market, by definition, goes up and down. And
    we've been very blessed in America to have strong financial markets and
    to have good, strong underlying institutions. And the market was, I
    think, 3,200 the day I took office. So I think most Americans are well
    pleased with where it is now compared to where it was 5 years ago.

    Ethics/Social Security and Medicare

        Mr. Russert. Let's look at the bad news, the failures of the Clinton
    administration, and put them up on the screen here for you: diminishing
    the Presidency because of ethical problems, 29 percent; not addressing
    Social Security and Medicare long term, 27 percent.
        On the first one, Mr. President, as you know, many people are
    concerned about campaign finance and how your campaign was funded and so
    forth; we have a situation now where 31 people have pleaded the fifth
    amendment, 11 people have fled the country. Are you at this point
    willing to acknowledge that there was at least too much excessiveness in
    the fundraising on behalf of your election?
        The President. Well, what appears to have happened is that there
    were people who gave money to the Democratic Party who were not legally
    entitled to give money to the party. Now, as far as I know, when the
    leaders of the party found out about it, when I found out about, we
    spent several million dollars doing a review and gave back all the money
    that we knew of that was not properly accepted.
        Mr. Russert. About $3 million.
        The President. It was a mistake to accept it. And what we've been
    trying to determine is whether we could have known, whether the party
    people could have known, if they'd done the right reviews in the first
    place. And I think some of them, they could have been known. And I think
    that was a mistake. But I said that back in 1996, before the election,
    we have to take responsibility, all of us, including me, for not having
    in place the kind of reviews that would have protected against that kind
    of problem.
        Now, however, I generally disagree with that. I think that this
    administration, when the history books are written and people look back
    at it, the public will have a very different opinion when they read the
    history about the ethical performance of this administration. In the
    moment, once you're accused and hearings are held, a certain percentage
    will think that you must have done something wrong personally or

    [[Page 1524]]

    tolerated people doing something wrong, and I don't believe that's the
    case.
        On the other issue, I agree with that. I think that one of our
    agenda is that we still have to address the long-term problems of Social
    Security and Medicare for when the baby boomers retire, so that the
    Social Security and Medicare will be there for them without
    overburdening their children who are attempting to raise their
    grandchildren. I think that's very important.

    Campaign Financing

        Mr. Russert. Let me get to Social Security in one second, but ask a
    followup on the campaign finance. People like Johnny Chung, Charlie
    Trie, John Huang have become household names in many ways. Do you think
    that they should come back to the United States and not take the fifth
    amendment and voluntarily tell you and the country everything they know
    so we can be certain, and particularly you as Commander in Chief, that
    our national security was not compromised?
        The President. When I asked President Jiang about that, you know,
    the question about was the Chinese Government involved, which was a
    question that was raised, he emphatically denied to me personally that
    their government had tried to do anything to influence the outcome of
    this election. And he said that he would cooperate with that. Of course,
    I have encouraged everybody to cooperate with the investigators. I think
    everyone should. So that's my position for those gentlemen and for
    everybody else. I think we ought to get to the bottom of it.
        But let met say, one thing that Senator Fred Thompson said that I
    really agree with, is that he said he hoped that his hearings, before he
    shut them down, would lead to reforming the system. And you know, before
    you had this job, you used to work for people who were elected
    officials, and I think that you will at least acknowledge there's
    something to the point that people don't go out and raise money because
    they want to, and then they find things to throw the money at. People
    raise money because they think they have to raise the money to buy
    access to communications with the public, and the cost of campaigns has
    been going up.
        Now, what I favor is the McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform
    bill, trying to control the amount of contributions and limit
    expenditures. And then I think we have to have access in the media to
    either free or reduced air time to people who observe these limits. I
    think we've got to have both if we're going to have real campaign
    finance reform.
        Mr. Russert. The other complaint, raised by Common Cause,
    particularly, and others, is that you received $75 million in public
    funding for the Presidential race but then went out and raised $50
    million in so-called soft money, largely corporate money, and bought TV
    ads all across the country, which brought your popularity ratings up
    considerably. And people said, that's inappropriate, you really did push
    through a huge loophole and use big corporate money to pay for TV ads
    designed and controlled by you, in effect, and that's what helped get
    you elected.
        The President. But keep in mind what the money did at first. Those
    ads were designed to put forward the Democratic Party's position against
    the Republican majority, the new Republican majority in Congress and
    their attempt to implement the contract on America. They benefited me,
    and they benefited all Democrats because people agreed with what we
    wanted to do as compared with what was being done there. And they lifted
    the party as a whole.
        The law basically says that you can't do anything that solely
    benefits you or any other particular candidate. I refused to let any ad
    run until it had advance clearance from the lawyer for the Democratic
    Party. And presumably Senator Dole did the same thing when the
    Republican Party did that. And presumably they got clearance even before
    they ran ads that affected only one congressional seat up in Staten
    Island, $800,000 of them.
        Should we limit the soft money expenditures? Yes, we should. How can
    we do it? Only if we're prepared to change the law. Otherwise, there's
    too much experience where one candidate, who's a good candidate with no
    money, is blown away because the other candidate that has a lot of money
    has the only access to the voters. That's what this is about. If we get
    another kind of access to the voters--let me just ask you to do this
    some day. One of the things I'd like to see you do here one Sunday is
    analyze the last British election, for example, and look at the
    television time that was given to Tony Blair in Labour and John Major in
    the Conservatives. See how they used it. See whether or not it wasn't
    more enlightening for the voters. See, if we had the right kind of
    campaign finance reform, how we could cut the cost and

    [[Page 1525]]

    elevate the level of the debate in a way that I think would increase
    voter turnout and confidence in the system.
        I acknowledge that we all have played a role in bringing down voter
    confidence. But it's the only system that's out there, and if you don't
    try to get your communication out and the other side does, they will
    prevail nearly every time.

    1996 Campaign

        Mr. Russert. Would you acknowledge the ads were pro-Clinton and
    anti-Dole?
        The President. Yes, because--but it was only because--first of all,
    they should have been pro-Clinton because the Democratic leaders in
    Congress and I were trying to put our position out against the
    Republican contract on America. And Senator Dole and Speaker Gingrich
    were the leaders of the contract side. But at least they furthered the
    debate on the great national issues before Congress at the time. The
    Republican ads were even more specific. I never ran an ad, for example,
    on my upbringing or anything like that.
        But as I said, to the best of my knowledge, every ad the Republicans
    ran was approved by their lawyers. I know every ad we did was approved
    in advance. The answer is to change the system. We wouldn't have this
    sort of thing if there was ample access for honest, open debate and
    communication. Once you've talked to the voters, and they've heard your
    side, and they've heard the other side in a free and open way, then you
    don't have the incentive for all this.

    Democratic Party

        Mr. Russert. The state of the Democratic Party--as you mentioned,
    the open House seat in Staten Island, the Republicans won. The
    Republicans won the mayoralties in New York and Los Angeles, the two
    largest cities; the Governorships in New Jersey and Virginia. In the
    last 4 years, since you've been head of the Democratic Party, titular
    head of the Democratic Party, 20 percent of the Democratic Congressmen
    are gone, 20 percent of the Senators, 38 percent of the Democratic
    Governors have lost. What is wrong with the Democratic Party?
        The President. Well, I think it's going through a period of
    transition, and I think it will come out stronger.
        Now, you should say, to make full disclosure, that every one of
    those Republican election victories you just mentioned was in a seat
    already held by a Republican and, in every case but one, by the
    incumbent who won.
        Mr. Russert. Fair enough.
        The President. And that we nearly won a race in New Jersey which no
    one in the world thought we had a chance to win.
        Mr. Russert. But the House and Senate and Governorships were all
    incumbent Democrats.
        The President. No, some of them were--some of them quit and the open
    seats went to Republicans. I think the biggest problem we've had in the
    Senate is people leaving. If in the last 4 years four Senators had
    stayed, we'd have 49 Senators, and we'd be virtually even. Same thing in
    the House. A number of our House seats were people leaving.
        But the House seats we lost in '94, I think, were because we were
    successfully attacked for the economic plan. The Republicans were able
    to convince people it was a big tax plan on them when it wasn't, and
    they haven't felt the benefits, and because we failed to reform health
    care, something I really regret. And that's partly my responsibility.

    Medicare and Social Security

        Mr. Russert. Before we take a break--you mentioned Social Security
    and Medicare; Medicare goes broke in the year 2001, Social Security has
    a deficit 2012. Will President Bill Clinton, in the final 3 years of his
    Presidency, move to restructure Medicare and Social Security in a way
    that may in fact raise retirement age, increase premiums, perhaps even
    reduce benefits in order to make it safe for people in my generation?
        The President. First, let's say--Medicare does not now go broke in
    2001; it's got 12 years on the life of it now. We have more prevention,
    more choices, and more cost controls in the Medicare reform program
    that's part of the balanced budget. So it doesn't go broke now in 2001.
    Social Security is in better shape because of the declining inflation.
        But do we have to have a longer term reform for Social Security and
    Medicare, and should it occur before I leave office? The answer to both
    those questions is yes.
        Mr. Russert. Many believe that Richard Nixon went to China--he was
    the fervent anti-Communist who could make that deal. It's going to take
    Democrat Bill Clinton to really make

    [[Page 1526]]

    tough decisions and say, ``We have to raise retirement age. We have to
    raise premiums. We have to reduce benefits for the next generation.''
    Are you willing to do that?
        The President. I'm willing to do what it takes to preserve and
    protect Social Security for the next generation and for the people who
    have to have it in this generation and also for Medicare. We've got a
    Medicare commission that's about to be appointed by the Congress and by
    the President, and I think together we're going to come up with a good
    bipartisan solution on that. And then we'll have to take on Social
    Security.
        I think it is a mistake for me right now to advocate various
    specific reforms because if it prejudges the work of the commission, it
    will make it more difficult for them to do it and then for us to pass it
    in a bipartisan way. But I'm willing to take the hard decisions
    necessary to preserve both of these programs, so they'll be available to
    people, and they'll work for people, and they'll keep America coming
    together. I think it's terribly important, a big part of the agenda for
    the next century.
        Mr. Russert. We have to take a quick break. We'll be right back with
    more of our conversation from President Bill Clinton on the 50th
    anniversary of ``Meet the Press'' right after this.

    [At this point, the network took a commercial break.]

    Investigations

        Mr. Russert. We're back, talking to President Clinton. All the
    allegations against you, the Whitewater, the lawsuit, Travelgate,
    coffees, sleepovers, on and on--your favorable rating is still near 60
    percent. Are you, not Ronald Reagan, the true Teflon President?
        The President. I think down deep inside people are fair-minded,
    first of all, and they know there is a difference in somebody making a
    charge against you and having it be true. Secondly, and more
    importantly, what I've tried to do as President is to cooperate with any
    investigation, answer any question, but save most of my time and energy
    not for defending myself but for working for the American people.
        My whole theory is, if the American people are doing better, then
    everything else is going to come out all right. And that's what we work
    on. That's sort of our credo at the White House: Don't think about
    ourselves; think about the American people. Try to move the ball forward
    every day. Try to make sure when we're done the American people are
    better off than they were when we started.

    The President and the Press

        Mr. Russert. Your attitudes towards the press. Your Press Secretary,
    Mike McCurry, said something interesting----
        The President. I couldn't believe he said that.
        Mr. Russert. I want to show it to you on the screen and get your
    reaction.
        The President. I couldn't believe he said that.
        Mr. Russert. The President, quote, ``refuses to believe the press
    does the things that they do only because of happenstance. He's just
    convinced there is some general global conspiracy out to ruin his life
    and make him miserable.''
        The President. He must have been tongue in cheek when he said that.
    He couldn't have been serious when he said that.
        Mr. Russert. Do you think we do a good job? Have we been fair to
    you?
        The President. On balance, yes. I think--first of all, I don't think
    there has ever been a President of either party and any philosophy that
    didn't think that he should have gotten a better press. So that just
    goes with the territory. I think there have been rather dramatic changes
    in press coverage over the last 20 years, particularly in the Washington
    press, which bear some examination and evaluation by those of you who
    are in the press. But I don't think that the President gets anywhere by
    making any comments on the press.
        I believe in the first amendment. When President Jiang of China was
    here, I was pushing freedom of the press with him. And I said that it
    would be hard to find anybody that had been beat up much more than I
    have in the press, but I still thought the country was stronger when we
    were free to speak. I raised the freedom of press issues when I was in
    Latin America recently.
        I think it's one of the best things about this country. And how it
    should be done and whether it's being done in the most responsible and
    effective way can only be determined by members of the press themselves
    in our system, because that's the only way you can keep it free.
        I don't hate all the press and all that business. I think Mike was a
    little tongue in cheek there.

    [[Page 1527]]

    President's Place in History

        Mr. Russert. George Washington, the American Revolution; Abraham
    Lincoln, the Civil War; Franklin Roosevelt, World War II; Ronald Reagan,
    the cold war: What will be Bill Clinton's legacy, absent a war? And,
    two, are Presidents as consequential now as they were before the end of
    the cold war?
        The President.  Oh, yes. I think they are but in different ways.
    First, I think a President's legacy is ultimately determined by--after
    he's gone from office, and maybe after he's gone from this Earth, when
    people can read all the records and see the real significance of what
    happened with the benefit of hindsight and without any prejudice for or
    against.
        I can tell you, when I came to this office, I ran because I thought
    this was a profoundly important time in our history, moving into a new
    era and a new century, changes in the way we work and live and relate to
    each other, relate to the rest of the world. And I had a vision for what
    I wanted America to look like when I left office. I wanted this to be a
    country where there was opportunity for every person responsible enough
    to work for it, where our country was still the leading nation for peace
    and freedom and prosperity, and where, with all these differences we've
    got, we're still coming together as one America. That's my vision. I
    hope someday some scholar will say it was my legacy.
        Mr. Russert.  Kennedy had the Cuban Missile Crisis. LBJ had civil
    rights. Bill Clinton has what?
        The President.  He had to make America work in a new world. We had
    to relate to a global economy, a global society. I think that's what
    I'll be judged on: Did I help America transform itself so that we would
    still be the greatest nation in the world in a global economy, a global
    society with the most diffuse and different population, diverse
    population in our history?

    President's Future Plans

        Mr. Russert. We asked our people across the country what you would
    do when you left office at the ripe old age of 54, and this is what they
    said--they volunteered: 50 percent, you give speeches and work for
    causes, pretty much like former Presidents; 15 percent said go into
    private business; 14 percent said teach at a university; 13 percent said
    run for another office. Will Bill Clinton ever run for another office?
        The President. I don't know. I might run for the school board
    someday.
        Mr. Russert. But not the U.S. Senate?
        The President. I don't think so.
        Mr. Russert. How about the Supreme Court?
        The President. I don't think so. I'm a little bit too much of an
    activist. I love studying the law, and I used to be a law professor, you
    know, and I taught constitutional law----
        Mr. Russert. And William Howard Taft went from the Presidency----
        The President. He did.
        Mr. Russert. ----to chief judge of the Supreme Court.
        The President. He did. But I think I'm a little too active for it.
    And I think the--I might like to do everything that was on that list in
    some form or fashion. What I want to do is to be useful to my country,
    to advance the causes of peace that I've worked for around the world,
    whether it's in Ireland or the Middle East or Bosnia. I want to help
    build these structures to deal with terrorism and environmental crises
    and all of that. I want to help children realize their potential, if
    they're forgotten, here at home or abroad.
        But I don't want to be underfoot. I don't want to be under some
    President's foot. If I can help my country and if a President wants to
    ask me to help, I'll show up and do it.
        Mr. Russert. But you might run for office?
        The President. I might like to be on the school board someday----

    Popular Perception of the President

        Mr. Russert.  Let me show one last graphic up here, and this is a
    fun one. We asked, what is the image you have of Bill Clinton? Forty-two
    percent said playing the saxophone; 40 percent, running in jogging
    shorts; 7 percent, playing golf; 6 percent, eating at McDonald's.
        The President. It's funny, I haven't eaten at McDonald's a single
    time since I've been President. [Laughter]
        Mr. Russert.  But playing golf. How many mulligans do you take in
    the average 18 holes?
        The President. One now.
        Mr. Russert.  One mulligan?
        The President. Yes.
        Mr. Russert.  And what's your handicap?
        The President. Twelve, thirteen, something like that. I'm playing--
    it's better than it was

    [[Page 1528]]

    when I became President, mostly because I've gotten to play with a lot
    of good golfers, and they've taught me a lot.
        Mr. Russert.  Mr. President, we have to take another quick break.
    We'll be right back with more of ``Meet the Press'' right after this.

    [Following a commercial break, a videotape of highlights from the first
    50 years of ``Meet the Press'' was shown.]

    Running for the Presidency

        Mr. Russert. Mr. President, was it a dream for someone from Hope,
    Arkansas, to join that galaxy of international leaders?
        The President. It was an amazing review of the last 50 years and it
    seems impossible sometimes that I was part of it, but I'm very grateful
    for the chance I've had to serve, and I'm grateful, frankly, for the
    program that you and your network have put on for 50 years. I relived a
    lot of my own life and the life of our Nation and the world looking at
    that. You should be very proud of that.
        Mr. Russert. In May of 1991 Bill Clinton was on ``Meet the Press''--
    [laughter]--and asked about the '92 election. Let's take a look.
        The President. What did I say?

    [The following videotape excerpt of the May 1991 broadcast was shown:

        ``Q. Deep inside, do you think there is a good chance that a
    Democratic candidate could win the White House?
        ``Governor Clinton. No.
        ``Q. Not a chance but a good chance.
        ``Governor Clinton. Today? No. A year and a half from now? Maybe.'']

        The President. That's a good brief answer.
        Mr. Russert. You won.
        The President. I did.
        Mr. Russert. But back in May of '91 you weren't so sure.
        The President. No, and I hadn't even decided to run then. And when I
    did decide to run, I think my mother was the only person who thought I
    had a chance to win. But that's the miracle of the American system. The
    thing that we have in Presidential campaigns, if you become the nominee,
    is that everybody hears your message.
        Mr. Russert. When you first started running in '92, was it kind of a
    trial run for '96, and----
        The President. Oh, no.
        Mr. Russert. You really thought you could win?
        The President Absolutely. I had--what I think is most important, if
    you run for President, is you have to know what you want to do if you
    win. You have to have a passionate desire to change the direction of the
    country, and I did. I had some very definite ideas, and so I thought,
    I'm going to do this because I think it's important. If I win, fine. If
    I don't, I'll be proud I tried.
        Mr. Russert. Before you go, Mr. President, we have compiled a book,
    ``Fifty Years of History in the Making: Meet the Press,'' in which you
    are prominently mentioned as the third sitting President to join us on
    ``Meet the Press.''
        The President. Great.
        Mr. Russert. We thank you for celebrating our 50 years----
        The President. Thank you.
        Mr. Russert. ----and welcome you back anytime.
        The President. I've got one for you, too.
        Mr. Russert. Oh, no.
        The President. The new book on the Buffalo Bills.
        Mr. Russert. Oh, God, here it is.
        The President. Signed by the author.
        Mr. Russert. And I have promised I will remain moderator of ``Meet
    the Press'' until the Buffalo Bills win the Super Bowl, which means I'm
    going to be here a very long time.
        The President. You'll still look very young.
        Mr. Russert. President Bill Clinton, thank you very much for joining
    us.
        The President. Thank you.

    Note: The interview was recorded at 7:30 p.m. on November 8 at the NBC
    Studios for broadcast at 10:30 a.m. on November 9. In his remarks, the
    President referred to President Saddam Hussein of Iraq; President Jiang
    Zemin of China; President Fidel Castro of Cuba; and actress Ellen
    DeGeneres. The President also referred to the United Nations Special
    Commission (UNSCOM).