    [Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: William J. Clinton (1997, Book II)]
    [September 26, 1997]
    [Pages 1239-1242]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]

    Interview With Tom Joyner, Tavis Smiley, and Sybil Wilkes on the
    Tom Joyner Morning Show in Little Rock
    September 26, 1997

        Mr. Joyner. Mr. President, good morning.
        The President. Good morning. You're having a lot of fun there for
    this early in the morning. [Laughter]
        Mr. Joyner. And you're having a lot of fun, too, aren't you? Now
    that Chelsea is gone, you all are having some fun, aren't you, Mr.
    President? [Laughter]
        The President. That's what Hillary says.
        Mr. Joyner. See, Sybil? See, Tavis? I told you. [Laughter]
        Ms. Wilkes. But he's the President. He can say that. You can't say
    that about him.

    Desegregation of Central High School

        Mr. Joyner. Mr. President, when this happened 40 years ago, how old
    were you?
        The President. Eleven.
        Mr. Joyner. And what was going through your mind when you saw all
    this that was happening here in Little Rock?
        The President. I thought it was a bad thing. I didn't understand why
    people were so upset. But as I said yesterday, most of the white kids
    didn't think about it one way or the other until it actually happened.
    Until the Little Rock Nine were turned away, I think most people didn't
    think about it one way or the other. Children are basically self-
    absorbed in their own lives. It's part of the privilege of childhood.
        But then, all of a sudden, kids that had never thought about it
    before, it's all they talked about for weeks. And everybody then had to
    decide really how they felt about it. It seemed obvious to me that
    sooner or later this was going to have to be done; it might as well be
    done sooner.

    [[Page 1240]]

        But I also--I was always amazed at how there was an element in the
    South and probably in the rest of the country, too, of people that
    were--they always just needed somebody to hate, needed somebody to look
    down on. But it's no way to run a country and no way to run a life.
    Sooner or later, to me, it was obvious it had to change.
        Ms. Wilkes. Mr. President, there seems to be so much symbolism to
    the fact that you were opening the door yesterday for the members of the
    Little Rock Nine coming through, as well as this year that you have
    stepped before the Nation, before the world, and telling them that you
    are taking this step into the 21st century and making a difference in
    terms of race relations. This is a year in which you are just really
    making us aware and bringing these things out to us. And I commend you
    for that.
        The President. Well, thank you. I think part of the symbolism
    yesterday was that--[applause]--thank you very much. I think yesterday
    part of the importance of the symbolism was that political leaders
    closed the doors and stood in the doors in the fifties and the sixties
    and kept people out of the doors. And apparently, that idea to open the
    door came from the students at Central High themselves. It was a great,
    wonderful idea, and I was glad to be a part of it.
        Mr. Joyner. First of all, to the affiliates of 93 stations around
    the country on the Tom Joyner Morning Show, as you can tell, we are
    running long. We're going to go right through the break. We want you to
    hang with us.
        Mr. President, you said that what happened 40 years ago really
    developed your idea of what race relations in this country should be
    about. At 11 years old, you were thinking race relations?
        The President. Well, it was discussed in my home because my
    grandparents were interested in it. That's what I said yesterday. So I
    had a chance to think about it earlier just because my grandfather
    expressed himself very strongly about it. He had once been a grocer and
    had a lot of black customers, and he knew a lot about black people as
    human beings and about the troubles they were facing and the problems in
    their lives and the potential they had. He thought it was wrong.
        My grandmother was a nurse and she had a lot more contact with black
    people in the fifties than most white people did, and she thought it was
    wrong. And they just had a big impact on me, and they talked about it a
    lot. And even though my grandfather died in 1957, and everybody was
    talking about this happening in the 2 years coming up to that, I still
    remember as a little boy, 9, 10 years old, sitting around the table,
    having him walk through this with me and telling me that this was
    something that had to be done.

    School Choice and Integration

        Mr. Smiley. Mr. President, Sybil asked you a moment ago about the
    symbolism of yesterday--this is Tavis--and I want to ask you about the
    substance, if I can. As you know, the two issues that are facing this
    country, certainly facing black America, with regard to education as we
    talk about this incident 40 years ago are the issue of school vouchers
    and this whole issue of resegregation of schools. You know, the NAACP
    was even considering earlier this summer reassessing their position on
    school integration. What are your thoughts specifically on how the issue
    of school vouchers and the issue of school integration are impacting the
    African-American community? Where do you come down on that debate on
    those issues?
        The President. Well, let me say, first of all, school vouchers--that
    is, giving people money that used to go to the school district that they
    can then use and spend in the school district or they can use it to
    defray the cost of tuition to private schools--school vouchers are the
    most extreme version of more school choice for parents and students. I
    have supported for years and years giving students and parents more
    choice for the public schools their kids attend, and also the national
    charter school movement which allows groups of teachers and parents to
    organize schools on their own and be more loosely affiliated with public
    school districts and to meet the special needs of the community, and
    then they can have a lot of freedom from the rules and regulations of
    the school districts and the State as long as they meet high standards.
    I support the school uniform movement which a lot of private schools
    have and which have made a big difference in a lot of school districts.
        The reason I have opposed school vouchers is that I think if you
    look at the facts, it's a relatively small financial contribution to
    give somebody, for example, what the Federal Government gives to a
    school district, but if you

    [[Page 1241]]

    take it away, you can have a big adverse impact on the school districts
    without helping any individual children very much.
        Now, I will say this: I believe that sooner or later there will be a
    lot of people who will try it, going beyond Milwaukee and, I think,
    Cleveland, unless we can prove that the public schools can work for
    children again. But I think from my point of view, particularly with the
    Federal dollars, I simply don't believe that we should be diverting
    resources when our schools have been relatively underfunded on the
    whole. Instead, we ought to be concentrating on making them excellent.
        On the other hand, there ought to be some competition there. The
    parents ought to have some say, which is why I think they ought to have
    more choice over the schools their kids attend, and they ought to have
    the right to participate in new schools that are outside a lot of the
    bureaucratic rules that burden school districts.
        On the resegregation, I think that my own view is that we ought to
    continue to try to have integrated schools. We ought to recognize that
    segregated neighborhoods and different patterns in who has children of
    school age in various places have led to a resegregation of a lot of our
    schools. We still ought to try to integrate these neighborhoods and mix
    them not only racially but economically. We still ought to have, where
    reasonable, transportation plans that work and aren't too burdensome for
    the kids. But we shouldn't use the fact that a school is not especially
    integrated at this moment as an excuse not to give those kids an
    excellent education and do the very best we can.

    Desegregation of Central High School

        Mr. Joyner. Ten years ago, Mr. President, there was a 30-year
    celebration for the Little Rock Nine that you helped organize when you
    were Governor here in the State of Arkansas. It was a lot smaller
    celebration than the one we've had this week, huh?
        The President. It was a lot smaller. I think they enjoyed it, but
    some of them--I'm not sure, you'd have to ask them--but I think there
    were a couple that hadn't been back to Arkansas very much before then.
    But everybody gathered. I wanted them to be able to come to the
    Governor's Mansion because it was the symbol of opposition to their
    efforts, and it was the place where a lot of the plotting was done to
    keep them out of school. I thought it would be a good thing if they came
    into the house that had once shut them out.
        Mr. Joyner. If you were one of them back then, do you think you
    could have had the courage to do what they did, in all that adversity?
        The President. I don't know. Boy, I'd like to think I would have. I
    think we all would like to think we would have. But I think, to be
    honest, none of us can know. You don't know until you're in a situation
    like that. I wish I could say yes, because I certainly would like to
    have been a part of it. And I can tell you this: I'm glad they did. I'm
    certainly glad they did.
        Mr. Smiley. That's why he's the President, Tom, he's smooth, ain't
    he?
        Mr. Joyner. That's right.
        Mr. Smiley. He's smooth.
        Ms. Wilkes. And you know, Mr. President, I think your grandfather
    would be very proud of you for what you have done in terms of stepping
    forward not only yesterday but, as I said before, with taking people and
    making us take stock of ourselves and our relationships with others,
    people that don't look like us. And you've done that certainly in your
    Cabinet and on your staff of people who look like a lot of us that
    listen to the Tom Joyner Morning Show as African-Americans.
        Mr. Smiley. Thank you, sir.
        Mr. Joyner. And we're all FOB's.
        Ms. Wilkes. Yes, we are.
        Mr. Joyner. We're FOB's.
        The President. Thanks, Tom. [Laughter]
        Ms. Wilkes. That would be a Fan of Bill.

    Chelsea Clinton

        Mr. Joyner. So how is Chelsea doing in school? Has she called for
    money?
        The President. Well, not for money yet. We've talked to her a couple
    of times, and she's having a good time.
        Miss Dupree. Well, tell her if she needs some campus fashion, Miss
    Dupree got some little cousins who can hook her up. [Laughter]
        Mr. Joyner. Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you for being a guest on
    the show, and thank you for being a part of all of the celebration here
    for the 40th anniversary of the Little Rock Nine. Thank you, sir.
        The President. Thank you. Goodbye, everybody. Thank you.

    [[Page 1242]]

    Note: The interview began at 8:45 a.m. The President spoke from a
    private residence to the interviewers in the Clinton Ballroom of the
    Excelsior Hotel in Little Rock. Comedienne Jedda Jones also participated
    in the interview, using her on-air name, Miss Dupree.