    [Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: William J. Clinton (1997, Book II)]
    [December 1, 1997]
    [Pages 1679-1684]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]

    Interview With Jodi Enda of Knight-Ridder Newspapers
    December 1, 1997

    President's Thanksgiving Holiday

        The President. How are you doing?
        Ms. Enda. Great. How are you?
        The President. I'm great. I had a great weekend; I'm in good humor.
        Ms. Enda. Got a lot of golf in, I see.
        The President. I played twice, and I saw tons of movies. I had my
    whole, huge--my little extended family was there; both my nephews were
    there. We had lots of folks there. I liked it. We must have had 20
    people at Thanksgiving dinner, and I liked it.

    President's Initiative on Race

        Ms. Enda. Oh, that's great. Well, I know we don't have a lot of
    time, so let's get to this race issue.
        When we talked about race last, way back in February, you said you
    wanted to embark on a major initiative that would change the culture of
    America. Now we're halfway through your one-year program, and there's
    been a lot of criticism that things have been a little bit slow. And I
    was wondering what you intend to do in the next 6 months and how you
    feel about this criticism.
        The President. I think some of it's justified. I think it took time
    to get the board--to get it organized, to get it staffed up, to get
    started. And that's why I always left open the possibility of having
    this thing take more than a year. I mean, I may want to do some things--
    I'm certain that I want to do some things after the year elapses, but we
    may be able to have the major report to the American people I want
    within a year's time. But I think some of that's justified.
        On the other hand, I think the board now is working very hard. Judy
    Winston and our staff are working very hard. We're beginning to get some
    of our specific policy initiatives out. The announcement I made for the
    scholarship program for people to teach in inner-city areas, the work
    that Secretary Cuomo is doing on discrimination in housing and trying to
    find community-based solutions so you won't just be dealing with
    individual acts of discrimination but you'll be changing the
    environment--we'll have a lot more of those coming up in civil rights
    enforcement, in education, in the economy, a lot of other things like
    that. So I think you'll see a lot more policy initiatives coming out.
        We will have--we'll be doing--the second thing we said we would do
    is to basically talk about what's working, put out--set the facts of
    racial life, if you will, in America today, put out promising practices,
    recruit leaders; I think you'll see a lot of that.
        And the dialog will become increasingly more public and pitched to a
    wider national audience, beginning with this townhall meeting. We've
    been spending a lot of time, and we'll continue to do that, meeting with
    small groups of people--I have here in the White House and, of course,
    the board has. But I want to notch up the public dialog, and I think
    this is a good time to be doing that.
        So, on balance, I'm quite pleased with the people that have been
    involved, with the efforts they're making, and with the number of people
    who want to be involved and who complain when they're not. I think
    that's a healthy thing, too. That shows that people are interested in
    talking about this and working on it and trying to get it right. So, on
    balance, I'm quite upbeat.
        We got off to a little bit of a slow start, but that partly was my
    fault because I announced it, and then we had to put it together. I
    mean, we knew what we wanted to do, but we had--it just takes time to
    put something together. And now I think we're running well now, and I
    think it will get better.
        Ms. Enda. What other kinds of policy initiatives are forthcoming?
        The President. Well, I know we'll have one on civil rights
    enforcement, for example. We're

    [[Page 1680]]

    looking at what we can do not only to adequately fund and beef up the
    EEOC but what we can do to use the EEOC and perhaps much better
    coordination with all the other civil rights agencies in Government to
    find alternative ways of resolving these disputes, so that you not only
    remedy a specific act of discrimination but you change the climate, the
    environment. You get people to working together and talking together,
    and you change the dynamics of workplaces all across America.
        We will have some more initiatives in the area of the education and
    economic opportunity. We've got this ongoing effort now, which I'm very
    proud of because I think it's going to make a difference, in the
    economic area to get more of these community development banks out there
    that will make more loans to minorities to start businesses or to expand
    small businesses. Because I have always believed that the central thing
    that our society needed--let me back up and say, I've always believed
    that ultimately the answer to building one America was to give people
    the chance to do constructive, positive work or, if you're younger or
    between jobs, learning as you work--learning and work in a positive
    environment that was free of racial discrimination. So I think there has
    got to be an economic and an educational component to all this that we
    keep uppermost in our minds. So we'll do that.

    Affirmative Action

        Ms. Enda. In terms of both economics and education, one of the most
    divisive issues right now in this country is affirmative action. You
    said earlier this year that you were going to look for an alternative to
    affirmative action that would accomplish the same goal of diversity
    without running into problems in the courts and among voters. Have you
    come up with an idea on that?
        The President. Well, I think there are some things that can be done,
    although--you know, my position on affirmative action is that we should,
    as I said when I spoke at the National Archives, we should mend it, not
    end it. That's what the Court in Adarand required us to do. The Court
    imposed some limits on affirmative action in the economic sphere.
        Ms. Enda. Right, but a lot of voters seem to want to end it.
        The President. Well, some voters do and some voters don't. We just
    won a big fight in Houston, and the mayor did a superb job, and they
    asked me to do a radio ad for it--and I did--for their position, to keep
    the program. And the Supreme Court--what I read from the Supreme Court's
    declining to take the California case is they basically said, look,
    we've put the limits, the constitutional limits on affirmative action in
    Adarand. By declining to take this case, they seem to be saying that
    there is no constitutional duty to have an affirmative action program,
    so we're going to leave it in the political sphere. It's now going to be
    up to the people and their elected representatives. That's the way I
    read the two cases. I think that's a fair reading of it.
        And so what I think ought to be done is, number one, we ought to
    continue to make sure that if we have the programs, they're carefully
    targeted and they don't amount to quotas and nobody is getting anything
    they're not qualified for. When they're under attack, I think they ought
    to be vigorously defended. And then I think we have to look for other
    ways to increase the access of minorities to educational, housing, and
    economic opportunities.
        But after all, that's what the empowerment zones, that's what the
    community development financial banks were all about; that's what our
    Community Reinvestment Act enforcement is all about. Over 70 percent of
    all the loans made to minorities in the history of the Community
    Reinvestment Act have been made since I've been President. So we have
    always looked for alternatives to affirmative action to work.
        Now, I noticed Glenn Loury--I don't know if you saw Glenn Loury's
    column recently about how he had now been excoriated by some of the
    right because he wasn't simon-pure on all these issues. He made a point
    about affirmative action that I don't have an answer for. I think that
    if you look at what we've done in education, we'll soon be at a point
    where we can tell everybody, if you stay in school and behave yourself
    and get your grades, you can go to college. But we don't want to have
    all the public institutions of higher education segregated, I don't
    think. I know I don't. And Glenn Loury made a point that I have not
    found a substitute for. I do think we can do more to bring economic
    opportunity to people; I do think we can do more to bring educational
    opportunity to people. And I think that will help to create more of an
    integrated environment.

    [[Page 1681]]

        Loury's point in his article of why he's supported some continuing
    affirmative action was that networking is important; if you want to
    build an African-American middle class, if you want Hispanic-Americans
    to develop a culture where it's unacceptable to drop out of school and
    they stay in school, and they not only have a good work ethic, they have
    a good education achievement ethic, and then you want them to be
    rewarded, you have to develop these networks.
        And one of the things that affirmative action does, both in terms of
    giving people a chance to participate in business, that governments do
    with private businesses, and in terms of getting into certain
    institutions of higher education, is to build a networking, the patterns
    of contact that then help their children, their relatives, their
    associates on both sides to begin to meld into a more integrated
    environment. And I don't think--so far I have not seen anything that I
    thought would fully compensate for that.
        Now, in education, there are--Texas has passed and California is
    looking at this so-called 10 percent rule, or 8 percent rule--that is, 8
    percent of the--the top 8 percent of this graduating class can go to any
    State institution they want to. But that is clearly a way of--another
    way of achieving the same goal.
        Ms. Enda. Do you support those plans?
        The President. Well, I think in the case of Texas, since they have
    gotten rid of direct affirmative action, it's sort of an indirect
    affirmative action, I think it's all right and it will at least keep
    them from--it will keep the State from having more segregated
    institutions of higher education and more segregated professional
    schools, which I think is a good goal.
        And I think most Americans can accept it because there's, by
    definition, evidence there that people have achieved academically in an
    environment and therefore are likely to be able to achieve in another
    and therefore likely to be considered worthy.

    Racial Stereotypes and the Media

        Ms. Enda. One of the big problems that I've talked to Judy Winston
    about, and others involved in your initiative, is stereotypes, that
    stereotypes are so widespread now and this is not something that you can
    wipe away by passing a law. Do you have some ideas on how to change
    stereotypes and also how to--do you intend to take the media on in terms
    of how the media promulgates stereotypes?
        The President. Let me answer the question separately. First of all,
    yes, we do. I think what we want to do to take on stereotypes is get the
    facts out there. Most stereotypes are wrong, I mean, by definition. And
    so we need to get the facts out. The American people need to know what
    the facts of life are about people of different backgrounds and races
    than themselves. Then we need to get these promising practices out so
    people can see that there are ways to overcome problems that do exist.
        And then what I hope to do by having these televised dialogs is to
    get people to have them on their own, by families, by communities, by
    schools, by workplaces, everyplace where they don't now exist, because I
    think that ultimately that having any positive personal experience with
    someone of a different race, and having more than one, breaks down the
    stereotypes that exist, because then you start treating everybody based
    on how you find him or her. And I think that's a very, very important
    part of this.
        Now, the second thing, on the media, I don't think that it's--there
    are some portrayals of African-Americans and Hispanic-Americans and
    Asian-Americans and white southern Americans and others in the media
    that reinforce preexisting stereotypes. But to be fair, there have also
    been any number of remarkable portrayals of minorities in ways that
    shattered stereotypes and allowed people to see each other in terms of
    their shared values and experiences and perceptions. So I don't think
    that the media can be fairly singled out for unilateral condemnation. I
    think that what I'd like to see done in the media is more--first of all,
    more portrayals of people who go against stereotypes; and secondly, more
    effort to show people in environments that are working across racial
    lines to solve real problems and give people what they need, which is a
    safe environment, a good education, a good job, and then how people can
    work together in those positive situations to have good lives.
        So rather than take--what I'd like to do is to point out maybe some
    stereotyping that can be destructive, some things that go against
    stereotypes and be completely enlightening, and then talk about what we
    can do to actually get people in their personal lives to shatter
    stereotypes so they're not using the media as a substitute for real-life
    experience one way or the other.

    [[Page 1682]]

    Interracial Marriage

        Ms. Enda. One thing that has happened in people's personal life that
    a lot of polls show is that there is a lot more interracial dating going
    on than there used to be, interracial marriages. Do you think that's one
    way to help resolve this racial problem? How do you feel about that
    issue?
        The President. Oh, absolutely. I think there's no question about it.
    When people are together as people, they relate to each other as people.
    Sometimes people who are passionately liberal on racial issues find that
    they meet people of different races and they don't like them very much.
    [Laughter] They treat them as people--that's good. That's the absence of
    discrimination, in a funny way. And then sometimes they like each other
    very much, and sometimes they fall in love. And when they do, they ought
    to get married. I mean, that's--I think it's a good thing. And I don't
    think there's any question that it helps to break down stereotypes and
    build bridges.
        I know in the military--and I've spent--obviously, because of my
    position, I've spent a lot of time with our people in uniform. I've
    visited a lot of bases; I'm on a lot of ships. But on the bases in
    particular, or when I go to Camp David on the weekend, I'm with military
    families a lot. And there are a not unsubstantial number of interracial
    families. And I was with a couple yesterday in church at Camp David and
    I saw those beautiful children that were the products of their union,
    and I thought to myself that everybody people come in contact with,
    whoever had a problem about race will have less of a problem. I don't
    think people should get married to make a statement; they ought to get
    married for the right reasons. But I think that it is a positive thing.

    Affirmative Action

        Ms. Enda. How do you feel about the Piscataway case being settled
    out of court?
        The President. Well, I think it was--we had, we in the Justice
    Department and the White House, did not think it was the right case for
    the Supreme Court to come to grips with the larger issues of affirmative
    action. The facts were not good. And so I think, on balance, it was a
    good thing that the Court will not be called upon to make sweeping
    generalizations about affirmative action on constitutional grounds on a
    set of facts which are, to put it mildly, atypical.
        Because, I mean, that was--I would not have favored some attempt
    just to keep the Supreme Court from deciding on the case. They've
    already decided on affirmative action in the context of Government
    contracts in Adarand. But the facts were not--it was an atypical set of
    facts. And the Supreme Court--it's hard enough for the Supreme Court to
    make momentous decisions that elicit from, in a general area, the larger
    principles of the Constitution and how they'll be applied if the facts
    are unquestionably representative of the class of cases involved--it's
    hard enough--or if there's just a few variations. Here's a case where
    the facts were quite different from the normal class of cases involved
    and therefore the risk of almost unintentional error, I think, was quite
    great. So I think on balance it was a good thing.

     Discrimination in Police Conduct

        Ms. Enda. One of the areas where a lot of people agree that there's
    huge amounts of discrimination remaining is in police--the way police
    treat people in terms of arrests and the way the courts treat them. Do
    you intend as part of your race initiative----
        The President. Absolutely, yes. One of the things that I think we
    have to do, first of all, is try to get this out on the table in a way
    that is both forthright but not threatening.
        I had a group of African-American journalists in here a few months
    ago, and virtually everybody in the room said they had been stopped by a
    police officer for no apparent reason. I mean, it was chilling to me.
    And now I just sort of--every time I'm in a room now with a number of
    African-Americans and Hispanics I'll cite this just to see how many
    people will speak up and say, ``Well, that's exactly what happened to
    me; it's happened to me a lot.'' Just today I was meeting with a guy who
    said, ``Oh, yeah,'' he said, ``I got stopped once just waiting for a
    taxicab, like there was something I was doing wrong, standing there
    waiting for a taxicab, in my suit.''
        Ms. Enda. So what do you intend to do about it?
        The President. Well, I think one of the things we need to do is to
    find a--we need to find, I think, a highly visible public forum to try
    to air this, as I said, in a nonthreatening way, where we just really
    get people to get the facts

    [[Page 1683]]

    out and talk about it. Because it is something--in some ways I think it
    eats at some communities in America as much as anything in terms of
    continuing evidence that discrimination exists, even though we've made a
    lot of progress. And I just think it's very important to deal with.
        Ms. Enda. Is there something that you, as President, can do about
    it? Is this something that you're going to take on publicly?
        The President. Yes, I want to be involved in this. I want this
    talked about. Of course, there are laws about this. If somebody is
    actually--this kind of conduct can reach a point where it amounts to a
    violation of Federal civil rights laws. But what we really want to do is
    to find a way for police, in good faith, to enforce the law and to
    prevent crimes, but to do it in a way that doesn't stereotype--to go
    back to your word--stereotype minorities just because they are
    minorities in certain places at certain times of the day.
        Ms. Enda. So what would you tell police officers, then? Do you have
    a message for them?
        The President. Well, first of all, I would say that the community
    policing law--if every major area, and even smaller areas, has
    community-based policing, this is far less likely to occur, because then
    people are more likely to be stopped or at least questioned in passing
    because they're strangers in the neighborhoods, rather than because of
    the color of their skin.
        And if the policeman happens to be white and the person stopped and
    questioned happens to be black or Hispanic or Asian--or the other way
    around, some variation of that--if there is a real community-based,
    connected law enforcement program, then people will not all
    automatically assume it was a race-based deal. They'll say, no, no, this
    person was stopped because the policeman didn't know him, because he was
    a stranger to the neighborhood, because there's been a crime down the
    street in the last 5 minutes, and this is the only person they saw that
    they didn't know.
        This is the flip side of the marriage issue and the dating issue.
    There will always be--as long as you've got some policemen who are of
    one race and they work in a neighborhood where some people are of
    another race, there will always be times when people of different races
    are in law enforcement and in contact with each other. What you want to
    do is create an attitude on the part of the law enforcement officer that
    they don't stop people just because they're black or brown or whatever;
    and in the community, that people aren't stopped just because of their
    race, that there is another reason there.
        So I think the way policing is done, as well as the attitudes of the
    people in law enforcement, are both important to getting rid of this
    problem. I've talked to enough police officers to know that a lot of
    people have done this and not intentionally done it, not thought they
    were doing it. Some people have done it and known exactly what they were
    doing. But this is a complex problem, but it deserves, in my view, a
    public and honest airing. And I think this race commission can do a lot
    of good by providing a supportive way for people to come forward and say
    whatever is on their mind about this.
        Ms. Enda. So is that something that you expect them to take on?
        The President. Yes. But I expect that I'll be involved in it, too. I
    really care a lot about it, and I've been quite affected by what people
    have told me about it.

    Capital Punishment

        Ms. Enda. It sounds like it. You support the death penalty, but a
    lot of people claim that in its implementation it's racist. That seems
    to be sort of a contradiction because you care so much about racial
    differences.
        The President. Yes, but you know, the only--actually, the evidence
    that troubles me most--first of all, I think the death penalty should be
    opposed or supported based on whether you believe, A, it's ever
    appropriate to do it and, B, whether you think it can be done with
    almost no chance of error if it's done seldom enough and with enough
    proof.
        But the real racial disparity in the death penalty which bothers me
    a lot that's never talked about--there's only one Supreme Court case on
    it, came out of Georgia--is that if you look at jury decisions and
    prosecutorial decisions, the evidence is that there's not so much racial
    disparity tied to the defendant but, instead, tied to the race of the
    victim. That's what all the research shows. And that's a subject for
    another day. But I still support the death penalty, but it really
    disturbed me.
        I never will forget, once in my home State a black teacher was
    horribly, horribly brutalized and then killed by two students. And the
    prosecutor--the death penalty was not sought. And

    [[Page 1684]]

    I thought to myself, if the positions were reversed, it would have been.
    And it wasn't because the boys were white, although they happened to be;
    if they were black, it would have been the same decision. That's what I
    believe. I think that all over the country, if you look at the real
    research, the research shows it's not so much the race of the criminal
    defendant as it is the race of the victim that determines a lot of
    decisions.
        Ms. Enda. And is there something you can do about that?
        The President. I don't know about that. I don't know about that. But
    since the Supreme Court ruled on it, there hasn't been much done. But
    that was a close case, even in this Court. It was about 8 or 9 years
    ago. Do you remember the case?
        Ms. Enda. Which case was that?
        The President. It was a Georgia case. And I think it was only a 5-4
    decision. I think it was. But it's been a long time. It could have
    been--the years run together too easy, but it was several years ago.

    Note: The interview began at 6:42 p.m. in the Oval Office. In his
    remarks, the President referred to Judith A. Winston, Executive
    Director, President's Advisory Board on Race; Mayor Bob Lanier of
    Houston, TX; and Glenn C. Loury, professor, Boston University. A tape
    was not available for verification of the content of this interview.