    [Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: William J. Clinton (1997, Book I)]
    [January 22, 1997]
    [Pages 62-68]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]

    Interview With Al Hunt of WBIS in Chicago, Illinois
    January 22, 1997

    Part I

        Mr. Hunt. Mr. President, I want to thank you for being one of our
    first guests on S-Plus on our second day of broadcast.
        The President. Thank you.

    National Economy

        Mr. Hunt. All right. Let me start off with a question about the
    economy. You oversaw a very good economy during your first
    administration, average growth of about 2\1/2\ percent a year, and yet
    there's still not enough money to do some of the things you want to do,
    and there's still income and wage disparities. Do you think it's
    reasonable in a second Clinton administration to look for slightly
    faster growth, say 3 to 4 percent a year?

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        The President. Well, of course, the conventional wisdom is that it
    should slow down, but I don't believe that. Let me say what I want to do
    is to keep a sustained period of growth going. If we could ratchet it up
    a little bit, it would be even better, but if we could average 4\1/2\--
    let's say 2\1/2\ percent for 8 years in a row, that would have quite a
    compound effect, actually, in our economy.
        Keep in mind, when we started, we thought our plan would reduce the
    deficit by 50 percent; it did by 63 percent. And over the long run, we
    are opening up investment dollars to help educate people, to help move
    people from welfare to work, to help invest in science and technology,
    to help do the things we need to be doing here, and to make some of the
    tax changes that will reduce inequality, as well.
        Mr. Hunt. But you can do that at 2\1/2\ percent the next 4 years?
        The President. Well, you can do some of it. For example, in the last
    4 years when we had to really do a lot of the hardest work on the
    deficit reduction, we were able to--because growth took care of part of
    our deficit problem, we were able to cut spending overall but still
    increase spending in education and in science and technology, primarily,
    and then deal with the problems of health care costs.
        I think if we can keep growth between 2\1/2\ and 3 percent, and if
    we can avert a huge increase in health care inflation--you know, there
    have been a lot of disturbing articles in the press in the last couple
    of days, well, health care inflation is coming back now. If we can avoid
    that--and we're going to try hard to do that--then I believe we'll have
    some money for the kinds of investments we need.
        I also would point out that in--we won't know until later this year,
    but in 1996 we saw that in 1995 inequality among working people began to
    go down for the first time in 20 years, for a number of reasons. Most of
    the new jobs are coming in high-wage areas, and the impact of the tax
    changes of '93 on workers with incomes of $30,000 a year or less was
    very positive. So I think we may be able to see declining inequality now
    for several years if we can continue with good new jobs and education.
        Mr. Hunt. In that context, the other day Chairman Greenspan of the
    Federal Reserve worried that wages may be rising so fast that it could
    threaten a renewed inflation, which would cause higher interest rates.
    Do you share that concern?
        The President. Well, so far--I don't yet, but there are two reasons
    why I don't. Number one, so far, workers have gotten, finally, some real
    raises, and they should. But you haven't seen a lot of demands for wage
    increases all out of line with profitability growth in given
    enterprises. You haven't seen any kind of demands that people would say
    are outrageous, even in tight labor markets.
        And I think that workers are very sophisticated now, and they're
    very sensitive to--they want a fair deal, so if their business is doing
    very well they'd like to participate in that, but they also understand
    that they can't kill the goose that laid the golden egg. And I think
    there's a lot more sophistication among working people, both members of
    labor unions and people who are not members of labor unions but are
    working in enterprises where they have to make those judgments.
        Now, in addition to that, I think productivity increases are
    continuing to be brisk, and there's now, finally, a lot of scholarship
    coming out indicating that we may have underestimated productivity in
    the last several years, especially in the service industries. And I
    think if that happens, if we can keep the productivity going, and we can
    keep our markets open--we can keep competing, keep expanding our
    horizons in competition overseas in trade--that we can have some
    appropriate wage growth without having inflation. That's the goal,
    anyway.

    Budget Negotiations

        Mr. Hunt. You mentioned earlier the deficit reduction. What do you
    think of the odds right now that you can reach an agreement with
    Congress on a balanced budget by the year 2002?
        The President. I think they're quite high.
        Mr. Hunt. You do?
        The President. I do.
        Mr. Hunt. Better than 50 percent?
        The President. I do.
        Mr. Hunt. In that context, I know that you favor a very specific
    targeted reduction in the capital gains tax rate, just for specific
    endeavors. But could you envision accepting what the Republicans are
    advocating, namely a broad-based unconditional reduction in capital
    gains taxes?
        The President. Well, let me say I can envision being more flexible
    on capital gains. I think it's a mistake to do a very expensive
    retroactivity

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    provision. It's unnecessary. It doesn't contribute to economic growth.
    And it will cause a lot of, you know, problems in other decisions we
    have to make.
        But I've always made it clear that I'm flexible on capital gains.
    I've never been philosophically opposed, as some of my fellow Democrats
    are. But I think a lot of us are open to that. What I want to do is to
    make sure that whatever we do we pay for and that we take care of first
    things first. And I hope that my education proposals will receive a
    favorable ear, and I hope that the Congress will be flexible about that.
    And I've decided to keep all options open.
        Yesterday, when I offered Medicare savings that literally were
    halfway between where I was and where the Republicans were when we broke
    off negotiations in 1996, I met them halfway. I want to do that as much
    as I can in every way. So I think we've got very good odds.
        Mr. Hunt. Meet them halfway on taxes also?
        The President. Well, I want to meet them halfway insofar as I can.
    On the other hand, we have to ask, you know, how much of a tax cut do
    they want and how is it going to be paid for and what are we going to do
    without. So we just have to get to that.
        But I'm not in stone on any of these things. I have proposed what I
    think is best for the country. I want them to propose, and then we'll
    have to work it out.

    Medicare and Social Security Reform

        Mr. Hunt. Your Medicare proposal the other day was quite well
    received by just about everyone on Capitol Hill. But let me ask you, why
    not go a little bit further, as even Bob Rubin at one point endorsed,
    and have wealthier senior citizens pay a little bit more for Medicare
    than middle income and poorer----
        The President. Well, as you know, I proposed that back in 1993 as
    part of our health care reform plan. And I'm not necessarily opposed to
    that. But I think that we ought to look at that in terms of a long-term
    fix for Medicare. But if we do it, people are entitled to know that it's
    not the Tweedledee, Tweedledum; that is, it's not a tax cut here and a
    premium rise there.
        And what I'd like to do--what I was trying to demonstrate, what I'm
    trying to demonstrate in my budget here is that through the right kind
    of disciplined management of Medicare we can achieve a 10-year life on
    the trust fund and a balanced budget. If we want to do more in that area
    to lengthen the life of the Medicare Trust Fund, then that's something
    Congress and I need to discuss in the context of Medicare and Social
    Security reform. But I also believe we have an excellent chance to make
    some decisions which will be helpful to the country over the long run
    with regard to what happens to the entitlements, not in the next 10
    years but in the next 15 to 30 years, when the baby boomers like me all
    come into the system.
        Mr. Hunt. Do you think, then, there is a good chance for a major
    reform of Social Security in your second administration? Let me ask you
    just one specific on that. As you know, the Social Security advisory
    commission the other day--they were divided on a number of things, but
    one thing that they were unanimous on, on Social Security, was that the
    retirement eligibility age ought to be gradually increased. Do you
    support that?
        The President. Well, let me say--here's what I think they believe.
    Right now we're increasing the retirement eligibility age to 67. So when
    you say ``increase,'' there are two ways you can do it. You can bump it
    up to 68 or 69, but it's happening over a period of very many years. Or
    you can accelerate, you can move it up instead of 1 month a year, you
    can move it up 2 months a year or 3 months a year, something like that,
    and accelerate that coming on.
        I think what we need to do is get together in some sort of
    bipartisan fashion--either a bipartisan representation of Congress with
    the affected groups or a commission, but a commission that would have a
    very short timespan. Because last year, you know, Senator Kerrey and
    Senator Danforth looked at a number of these things, explored a number
    of these options, so we have their work.
        Mr. Hunt. You're talking about an entitlement commission, not just a
    Medicare commission?
        The President. Yes, correct. And now we've got the work that the
    Social Security commission has done, although they couldn't agree, which
    shows you how difficult it is. And a lot of people even on Wall Street
    have reservations about whether this idea of putting more of the present
    Social Security savings into the stock market is a good one or not.
        Mr. Hunt. Let me just close this. You said there were two ways to
    go. Does either way seem effective to you now on increasing retirement
    age?

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        The President. Well, I think--we discussed a couple of years ago
    whether it would be an appropriate thing to kind of, to accelerate the
    timetable from a month a year, 2 months a year, whatever, what would
    that look like.
        I would have to see more evidence on raising the years, simply
    because I don't know--you know, I could work until I'm 68. And one of
    the reasons I went to law school is so no one could ever force me to
    retire, so I'd be able to work until I drop, because I'm a workaholic
    and I enjoy it and I think it is a good thing. But I don't know how many
    people out there work in jobs that are physically or emotionally so
    stressful that we would really be putting them under a lot of difficulty
    should we do that.
        And so I just need--that's why I've said over and over again, I'm
    prepared to make these decisions with the Congress, I'm prepared to take
    responsibility for them, but we need to agree upon a process that is
    bipartisan and fairly quick. I think that from beginning to end,
    whatever we do, we need to be finished by the middle of next year.

    Bipartisanship

        Mr. Hunt. Mr. President, the chief Republican in any bipartisan
    negotiations this year, almost everyone on Capitol Hill says, will be
    Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott. What are your relations like with
    Senator Lott? How do you two southerners deal with one another?
        The President. Well, I think we understand each other. And I like
    him. I like dealing with him. As of this date, he has always been very
    straightforward with me. If he couldn't do something, he would tell me,
    ``I can't do that.'' If he disagreed with me, he would say, ``I
    disagree.'' If he thought we could work something out, he would say,
    ``Let me see,'' and he'd always get back to me and say yes or no. And I
    have tried to treat him in the same way.
        I think we have some similarities in our upbringing and, obviously,
    in the culture in which we grew up. I feel very comfortable relating to
    him, and I do like him personally. And I think that he's a man who--he
    has his strong political convictions, but I believe he loves our
    country, and I believe that it really--he measures himself in no small
    measure by what he achieves and whether he actually gets something done
    for the country.
        So, if we can keep the kind of atmospherics that existed in the last
    month or two of the last Congress in this Congress, I think we're going
    to do just fine.
        Mr. Hunt. It sounds like different chemistry than you had in the
    beginning of the last Congress with Republican leaders. Is that fair?
        The President. Yes, although I developed--all I had to do to have a
    good chemistry with Senator Dole was just spend some more time with him.
    In the first 2 years of my Presidency before he became majority leader,
    when he was minority leader, I think he had an understandable reluctance
    to be at the White House very much and to spend a lot of time with me or
    with our people, because he knew he was going to run for President and
    because he thought it didn't matter so much because he was a minority
    leader. Once he became majority leader he understood that we had to meet
    and work together, and we fairly quickly established a pretty good
    rapport.

    Part II

    Professional and College Basketball

        Mr. Hunt. Let me turn to a couple of sports questions. We are in
    Chicago right now.
        The President. Home of the Bulls.
        Mr. Hunt. Not only the home of the Bulls, but there's one Chicago
    Bull from a little town called Hamburg, Arkansas.
        The President. Hamburg, Arkansas. Scottie Pippen.
        Mr. Hunt. Tell us what you know about that Chicago Bull.
        The President. He's a remarkable man. I really admire him very much.
    And you know, we don't know each other well, but in Arkansas everybody
    knows everybody else. [Laughter] You know, it's a small State. But he
    came out of a small town. He went to a fairly small school in Arkansas.
        Mr. Hunt. The Razorbacks didn't even recruit him?
        The President. No, he went to a division II school, and he didn't
    make that team as a freshman. And then I watched him go from a
    sophomore, sort of making the team. And then by the time he was a senior
    he was the best player in his division in the United States. I mean,
    just--and then of course he was drafted in the pros. And then every year
    he just got better and better and better, you know, for 5 or 6 years he
    was just exploding in his capacity every year.
        So I think of all the people playing for basketball today you would
    have to say that he was

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    a little bit of a late bloomer, but he exploded when he got going. I
    mean, for a man who--he literally started sort of from his sophomore
    year in college, and he just kept--whatever the bar was he always
    reached it and went over it. And he's still doing that.
        Mr. Hunt. Did you see him play in college?
        The President. One time. And he was good. He was really good. And,
    you know, now it's not even the same. I mean, he's like on another
    planet now.
        Mr. Hunt. I know your favorite team is the Arkansas Razorbacks. But
    you and Patrick Ewing also share an alma mater together.
        The President. Yes, Georgetown.
        Mr. Hunt. Do you follow your former Georgetown Hoyas?
        The President. I do. I always root for the Razorbacks and the Hoyas.
    I keep up. Georgetown is having a little bit of a tough season this
    year, but over the long run it's hard to think of a program that's done
    more than John Thompson's has to produce both good basketball teams and
    college graduates. And I think that's--I wish more people would model
    the Georgetown program.
        Mr. Hunt. Let me ask you about that. You talked in your Inaugural
    speech about personal responsibility, you talked about the need for a
    more civil discourse, and you mentioned role models. What effect do you
    think it has on kids when famous athletes like Dennis Rodman engage in
    those well-publicized antics? Does it worry you?
        The President. It does. It worries me more now than it used to, than
    it would have 20 years ago, because, first of all, all of us know the
    pervasiveness of the media in our culture. It means that we all know
    everything like that when it happens, instantaneously.
        And secondly, there are an awful lot of young people out there,
    particularly young boys and young men, who don't have immediate,
    positive male role models who can contradict a lapse by an athlete. And
    I say this--I'm a big Dennis Rodman fan. I mean, I think he's an
    extraordinary athlete, and he's a very interesting man. And I don't mind
    at all some of the more unusual manifestations of his personality. But I
    think when he does a destructive thing like that, it's a bad thing. I'm
    sure in his heart of hearts he really regrets it.
        You know, we all would hate to be judged on what we did in the
    darkest hour of the darkest day of our lives. And, unfortunately, when
    athletes are under all this pressure, they're also being watched all the
    time, when they're under the most stress and most likely to do or say
    something they wish they hadn't. And I'm sure in his heart of hearts he
    regrets doing that. But I would hope that at some point, in addition to
    paying this enormous fine and also trying to pay the gentleman that he
    kicked--which I think is a good thing--that he'll find a way to say, ``I
    shouldn't have done it, and I really regret it.''
        Because I think it will only make him bigger, it will only make his
    fans think more of him. And it will send who knows what signal to some
    young person out there who, like Dennis Rodman, has enormous abilities
    and a terrific imagination and is a little bit different from the run of
    the mill person and therefore really identifies with Dennis Rodman.
    There's lots of kids out there like that, real smart, real able, a
    little bit different. And they've got to be fascinated by him. So I hope
    he'll find a way to say that--and I say that as I'm a real admirer of
    his basketball talent, and I find him a fascinating man. But he might be
    able to help some young people if he just says, ``That's something I
    shouldn't have done, and I'm not going to do that anymore.''
        Mr. Hunt. You are a genuine basketball aficionado. Who is the
    greatest basketball player you've ever seen?
        The President. Oh, Jordan.
        Mr. Hunt. Is he?
        The President. Oh, yes.
        Mr. Hunt. In a league by himself?
        The President. I wouldn't say that. I've seen some great players. I
    saw Michael Jordan play when he was a senior in college and North
    Carolina came to play Arkansas, and they were ranked first and we were,
    I don't know, fifth or sixth or something. And we beat them by one
    point. But it was a fascinating game. And he just is--you know, he's a
    wonderful player. But basketball, I suppose next to golf, is my favorite
    sport, although you can tell by the way I'm built and move around I have
    to be a spectator more than a player. [Laughter]
        I have never been much of a player, but I love it. And the thing
    that I find exciting about pro ball is that it's played at such a high
    level that it seems to me that year-in, year-out on the whole, the group
    of players is getting better. I believe that is accurate. And so I think

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    some day, you know, Michael may have the kinds of things that we--you
    know, he scored 51 points last night. His team has a bad night, and it
    happens to be on the night he's having a good night--you know, he can do
    something like that. Someday we may take it for granted, that level of
    achievement. Some day there may be 20, 30 players in this league who can
    do that, just because of the level of competition they're bringing out
    of one another--you know, the way they're growing and going. But----
        Mr. Hunt. I'll never have time for anything else if that happens,
    Mr. President. I'm just going to go to those games.
        The President. No, it's just fascinating to watch. But I think, for
    me, he's the--because he has both offensive and defensive skills and a
    level of physical mobility and control, the combination of those things
    that I've never seen it before.

    Super Bowl XXXI

        Mr. Hunt. Let me ask you one final question. You will never run
    again for national office. You're going to retire undefeated from that.
    So you don't have to worry about Wisconsin's 11 electoral votes or
    Massachusetts' 12. Who's going to win the Super Bowl on Sunday, Packers
    or Patriots?
        The President. I still have feelings for those places. [Laughter]
    I'll give you an analysis. I won't call it.
        Mr. Hunt. All right.
        The President. I think, first of all, there's an enormous
    psychological energy coming out of Green Bay. They've waited a long time
    to get back to the Super Bowl. They had this proud heritage. And it
    really is a home team. They don't have the kind of--they never worry
    about the team moving. They don't have to worry about the franchise
    leaving if you don't build a new stadium. They don't have to worry about
    building a skybox for wealthy people--you know, keep the money coming
    in. And it's always going to be sold out, because it belongs to the
    community and the leaders of the community.
        And I think that, plus the fact that they played a very tough NFC
    schedule and ranked first in offense and third in defense and they've
    got great wideouts and great tight ends and a good running program. You
    know, that's a very rare thing to see that. I think that gives them a
    lot going.
        Now, the flip side is the New England team has come alive
    defensively in the last five games in a way that's highly unusual. You
    rarely--if something funny--something fundamentally different has
    happened to them. And it's the one thing that makes me believe that--you
    know, the last several Super Bowls, the NFC team has won fairly handily.
    But if you look at the fact that the Patriots have a very skilled
    quarterback, a fabulous coach who is very savvy in circumstances like
    this----
        Mr. Hunt. And has been there before.
        The President. ----and been there before. And something happened, it
    was almost like a transformation of their defense in the last half dozen
    games of this year. I think you have to say that this could be the most
    interesting Super Bowl we've had in a long time.
        Mr. Hunt. You're not going to predict the winner. Will you predict a
    close game?
        The President. Yes, I will. I think that this is likely to be a--I
    think it is likely to be a closer game than the last four or five we've
    seen. The problem has been, you know, that the NFC basically has been
    beefier. So when a team--when the Cowboys or the 49ers come out of it as
    they have tended to come out the last several years, not only do they
    have this great reservoir of talent, but this great reservoir of talent
    was tested in a steady way during the year. So that when the best team
    came out of the AFC, they even--not only have they had--very often they
    weren't as strong pound for pound, particularly in physical strength.
    That was the thing that the Cowboys had, you know, on both sides of the
    line. In the end they would win at the end on their just brute strength
    as much as anything else. But the AFC teams hadn't been subject to that
    level of competition on a sustained basis.
        I think this may be a little different. And as I said, you've got to
    ask yourself what happened to this team that turned it into a,
    literally, a brilliant defensive team in the last third of this year.
    There's something there. And I think it's--we've got a chance to see an
    exciting game.
        Mr. Hunt. We'll watch on Sunday. And on that note, Mr. President, I
    want to thank you very much again for being one of our first guests on
    S-Plus.
        The President. Thank you.

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    Note: The interview began at 5:06 p.m. at the Chicago Cultural Center.
    This interview was released by the Office of the Press Secretary in two
    parts: Part I was released on January 22, and part II was released on
    January 24. In his remarks, the President referred to former Senator
    John C. Danforth; John Thompson, Georgetown University men's basketball
    coach; and Dennis Rodman, Chicago Bulls basketball player.