[Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: William J. Clinton (1996, Book II)]
[July 15, 1996]
[Pages 1118-1127]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]



[[Page 1118]]


Interview With Tom Brokaw of MSNBC's ``InterNight''
July 15, 1996

    Mr. Brokaw. Good evening, and welcome to ``InterNight.'' It's going 
to be a nightly primetime program here on MSNBC in which we talk to the 
major newsmakers of the day. What better way to launch this program 
tonight than with our guest, our special guest, the President of the 
United States. He faces an election campaign that will determine his and 
this country's future.
    Mr. President, I was struck by the fact that we're here in the 
Roosevelt Room; no one personified the beginning of the 20th century 
better than Teddy Roosevelt. And as we come to the conclusion of the 
20th century we're not only on cable television but we're on the cyber 
universe as well, on the Microsoft network. It's a remarkable time.
    The President. I think Teddy Roosevelt would like this very much. 
This is a room that is named for Teddy and for Franklin Roosevelt. 
Theodore Roosevelt's Nobel Prize which he won in 1905 is here in this 
room. We keep it here. And he really brought us into the modern age, and 
we're now going into a very different kind of world. And I think it 
would excite him very much to see it.

Russia

    Mr. Brokaw. We saw another demonstration of that different kind of 
world today when Boris Yeltsin stiffed the Vice President of the United 
States, to put it in inelegant terms. He stood him up. They had an 
appointment. The Vice President told me earlier this evening he doesn't 
know whether Yeltsin is in good health or not, or whether he, in fact, 
is just fatigued. Does that make you a little nervous, that we don't 
know the condition of his physical being?
    The President. Well, we have--we don't know, but we have no reason 
to believe that he has a serious illness. We do not know. I talked to 
him just a few days ago; we had a very good talk. He was very glad that 
the Vice President was coming over. Mr. Mamedov, his Deputy Foreign 
Minister, was just here a couple of days ago, and I saw him. So in terms 
of the relations between the two of us, our two countries, we're doing 
fine.
    And I would urge us not to read too much into it. After all, he's 
just finished an exhausting campaign. You know how exhausting it is to 
run for President of the United States, and keep in mind, if you want to 
be President of Russia, you have to be willing to travel through 11 time 
zones. So he's been through a lot, and he may just be tired.
    Mr. Brokaw. But, frankly, he has had some health problems in the 
past.
    The President. He has.
    Mr. Brokaw. What happens to our intelligence in Russia that we can't 
find out what's going on with the President?
    The President. Well, we normally have a pretty good idea. And as I 
said, we certainly have no reason to believe, as I am talking to you 
tonight, that there's something serious wrong. But we just don't know. 
We can't know everything, and we can't know everything instantaneously. 
But I have no reason to believe that he did anything but ask Al Gore if 
he could delay the meeting.
    And I don't consider it being stiffed since he knows what Al's--what 
his itinerary is in Russia. He's not being asked to stay later or 
anything to see him.
    Mr. Brokaw. Would you be surprised if Boris Yeltsin does not finish 
his 4-year term and that the reigns of power are assumed by somebody 
like General Lebed?
    The President. I would. I think he'll be able to finish his term. 
And I was very encouraged that he found a way to put this new team 
together that kept Prime Minister Chernomyrdin there, who is a real 
symbol I think of stability and progress, discipline. They're a good 
team, and Mr. Lebed seems to be finding his way into the team. So I 
think it's working out reasonably well so far.
    Mr. Brokaw. What makes you more nervous, Russia's fragile democracy 
or China's uncertain future?
    The President. I don't know that I'm nervous about either one. But I 
think that Russia is clearly now committed to a democratic future and 
one in which it is a responsible partner in world affairs. I think China 
is committed to a future of continued economic progress. I think they're 
still ambivalent about democratic free-


[[Page 1119]]

doms, but we seem to be developing a more constructive relationship with 
them.
    I have told a lot of people--I'd like to say it again on your show 
because you have got a lot of future-oriented people listening to this 
show--I think how Russia and China define their own greatness in the 
next 20 years will have a lot to do with how the 21st century comes out. 
And I want them both to define their greatness in terms of the positive 
achievements of their people, their winning in peaceful cooperation on 
economic and cultural and athletic fields, and their willingness to 
cooperate with us to fight our common enemies: terrorism, the 
proliferation of dangerous weapons, and environmental destruction and 
diseases sweeping the globe. We need great countries working together if 
we're going to make the 21st century what it ought to be.

Personal Character

    Mr. Brokaw. Let's switch from international politics and the future 
to domestic politics. We have some polls tonight--good news and bad news 
for you. The latest NBC News poll shows that you have expanded your lead 
as of the moment over Bob Dole. You're leading now by a factor of 54 to 
30 percent. That's about a 7 percent--7 point gain for you in just the 
past 3 weeks.
    Here's the bad news. We did a poll 3 weeks ago. We asked the 
question whether the people believed that you were telling the truth on 
Whitewater. By a factor of 55 to 24 percent, they said, no. Mrs. 
Clinton--it's even greater: 62 to 18 percent of the American people 
believe that she is not telling the truth. These are fundamental 
questions about personal character. Doesn't that bother you some, that 
the American people believe that they're not getting the truth from 
either one of you?
    The President. It bothers me some, but I don't see how they could 
draw any conclusion other than that since if you looked at the 
information that they have been given, I'm sure it's four, five, six to 
one negative. And I think character is a legitimate issue, and I look 
forward to having that discussion. But I think that you can demonstrate 
character most effectively by what you fight for and for whom you fight. 
And I believe that the fact that I've stood up for the American people 
for the things like fighting for the family leave law or the assault 
weapons ban or the Brady bill or the V-chip for parents or trying to 
keep tobacco out of the hands of kids and a lot of other issues--those 
things will count for something, and they demonstrate character, too.
    But on the other matter, I would like to remind everybody that this 
has gotten a lot of exhaustive attention, perhaps more than it deserves, 
and every reading of the evidence, as opposed to another round of 
questions, fails to demonstrate any wrongdoing by either one of us. And 
I believe that in the end that will come out and come clear to the 
American people. I just think that in the meanwhile all we can do is go 
about our business. We've got to keep working for the American people, 
and let them sort that out. I feel good about it.
    Mr. Brokaw. What do you say to each other in the privacy of the 
living quarters about these questions, however, at the end of the day? 
Because none of us, after all, is immune to that kind of judgment on the 
part of the people that we care a lot about.
    The President. Well, I try to remind Hillary not to worry too much 
about it because every time she goes out and people see her and she 
relates to people, they admire her, they like her, they respond to her 
just as they did around the world in this last trip where world leaders 
always contact me after she's been to a country and say, ``Thank you for 
sending her. She really represents your country well. She inspires our 
young people, and thank you for doing it.''
    And I also remind her about the evidence being on her side. I mean, 
it didn't get a lot of publicity, but there's only been one definitive 
report on this whole business, and that was the Resolution Trust 
Corporation's report, supervised by a staunchly Republican appointee 
from the previous administration, which said that there was no evidence 
of any wrongdoing, not even any basis for a civil action against me or 
Hillary or her law firm and that her billing records, which received so 
much publicity, actually confirm her account.
    Now, that's a dispassionate view of the evidence. So I think the 
American people are fairminded. They've heard a lot more negative than 
positive, so they have questions. But I think in the end they say, 
``Well, what do we know, and what has this man done and what have they 
done, what have they fought for, who have they stood with?'' So I remind 
her whenever this comes up--it doesn't come up so often anymore--that we 
only have so many hours of the

[[Page 1120]]

day, and every day we spend thinking about that, every minute we spend 
thinking about it is a minute we're not working on the job we were sent 
here to do. And so we just try to cooperate when questions are asked and 
keep working ahead when they're not.

Whitewater Trials

    Mr. Brokaw. She's had to appear before a grand jury, and your very 
close friend Bruce Lindsey has been named an unindicted co-conspirator. 
He's down in Arkansas now on another trial. Does that ever lurk in the 
back of your mind that there may be more indictments that will arrive at 
the White House, maybe even for the First Family after the election? Has 
that possibility occurred to you?
    The President. No, and it's a highly politicized operation. And I 
think it's obvious, there's no precedent for it that I know of, ever. 
But even so, it's very hard to just make things up. And I don't think 
anyone doubts that, for example, Mr. Lindsey, if there was any serious 
evidence that he'd done anything wrong that they would have moved 
against him.
    So we'll just wait and see. But I still believe it's hard to make a 
lie stick and call it the truth. I think in the end the American people 
will figure it out. And I wake up and go to bed every night with that 
assurance, and I'm just going to keep working.
    Mr. Brokaw. Mr. President, we've got a lot of ground to cover here 
tonight, a lot of substantive issues. We've got phone calls. We've got 
questions from the Internet, as well, to get to.
    We'll be back with ``InterNight'' in a moment.

[At this point, the network took a commercial break.]

Tobacco

    Mr. Brokaw. Mr. President, do you think that smoking is an American 
health hazard?
    The President. Absolutely I do.
    Mr. Brokaw. And addictive?
    The President. Yes.
    Mr. Brokaw. In the last 10 years the tobacco companies have given 
the Republicans something like $7 million in campaign contributions, but 
they've given your party $2 million. Why don't you make a pledge tonight 
to the American people you will take no more tobacco money, not just the 
Clinton campaign but the Democratic National Committee?
    The President. Well, I think the Democratic Committee is reviewing 
its policy, although let me say, I have never fought even with the 
Republicans over their money. It's just a question of does the money 
have an adverse impact on your policy. It's their policy I disagree 
with. I have never tried to even put the tobacco companies out of 
business. I think they have a right to sell a legal product, and they 
have a right to market it to adults. The real problem is that it's 
illegal in every State in America for children to start smoking, but 
3,000 start every day; 1,000 of them will die sooner because of it. And 
we have to do something to stop it.
    And they'll have to answer whether the fact that they do better than 
we do on contributions has anything to do with their policy. But our 
policy is the correct one. And I don't want to treat the people who work 
for these tobacco companies like they're not citizens. They're not doing 
anything illegal, but they're wrong in fighting us on this policy. They 
should help us.
    Mr. Brokaw. But given all that, why not just turn off the money 
spigot?
    The President. The money spigot has been pretty well turned off. I 
think that in the last couple of years they're going five or six to one 
for the Republicans. But again, I don't want to get into that. The money 
is relevant only insofar it has an influence on the wrongheaded policy. 
These people, they're not criminals because they work for tobacco 
companies; they're citizens. They have a right to participate in the 
political process. They have a right to have their voices heard. They 
have a right to sell legal products.
    What is wrong is they are marketing in ways that they know--I 
believe they know--has to be appealing to young people. You look at--
young people, for example, who smoke illegally are far more likely to 
buy the most heavily advertised brands than adults are. And smoking 
would continue to deteriorate in this country and go down as a health 
hazard if people didn't start before they were adults.
    Now, I just want to keep the attention of the American people 
focused on that. And that's why--my fight with the Republicans has been 
clearly focused on their policy. They got--may get more money because of 
their policy, but their policy is wrong, and they ought to change it.

[[Page 1121]]

Illegal Drugs

    Mr. Brokaw. Recently, Bob Dole said, in response to your criticisms 
of his stand on tobacco, you know, the Clinton administration, the use 
of marijuana and other illegal drugs went up before he started to do 
something about it. Why were you so late off the mark in beginning to 
attack what was a plain increase in the use of illegal drugs during the 
last 4 years?
    The President. Well, first of all, I don't think that's a fair 
criticism. I think the--if you go back and look at our '93 budget, we 
asked for more funds in '93 both for enforcement and for treatment. I 
named a drug czar promptly, a man with a lot of experience running big-
city police operations dealing with drugs. And then when he left, I 
named General McCaffrey, who had managed our Southern Command and dealt 
a lot with drug exports. So I've been interested in this right along.
    The drug use did start going up in the early nineties among young 
people, especially marijuana use. Cocaine use has continued to drop, but 
they're diversifying drug use. It's a terrible problem. We're working on 
it. We have a strategy; we're trying to implement it. And we've 
basically been able to do this in a bipartisan fashion in this country 
in the last 10 years or so. And I'd like to see us continue to do that.
    But it is a serious problem. When I came here we instituted, even in 
the Federal Government, in the executive branch, stiffer drug testing 
policies than the legislative branch had. I think it's a really serious 
problem. I have always fought it and will continue to do so.

Welfare Reform

    Mr. Brokaw. Let's talk for a moment about welfare. The Republicans 
have a bill that they think you will sign on the Hill. It eliminates the 
Federal guarantee of cash assistance for poor children in this country, 
a guarantee that we've had in place since the early 1930's. Are you 
prepared to have that happen?
    The President. It depends on what else is in the bill. That is, if--
--
    Mr. Brokaw. You can foresee the possibility it will take away the 
ultimate safety net of no Federal cash assistance for very poor 
children?
    The President. Of the guarantee--if the bill has provisions in it 
which provide more child care to these same families, which has more 
flexibility to enhance the ability of the parents in these families to 
go to work, which help the young parents who have children at home to be 
better parents. The money will still be spent on the children. The 
reason they want to get rid of the guarantee is so the States will have 
more flexibility to require people to move from welfare to work more 
quickly. And if that's what's going on, then I can support it, if the 
rest of the supports are enough.
    Let me just make one other point. There's a dramatic difference 
already in the welfare benefits from the poorest to the richest States. 
There's not really a national guarantee that amounts to much now.
    Mr. Brokaw. We're not going to leave this alone; we're going to come 
back to it in a moment----
    The President. Let's do it.
    Mr. Brokaw. ----because we want to talk some more about that, and we 
want to hear from our viewers out there by telephone and the Internet. 
Back in a moment on ``InterNight.''

[At this point, the network took a commercial break.]

Social Security

    Mr. Brokaw. We're back on ``InterNight,'' and we're looking with the 
President of the United States at various chatrooms on the on-line 
service that MSNBC is providing to all of you. Here is a question that 
came from one of the many thousands of people who submitted them: How 
will you keep the Social Security system solvent without raising taxes? 
That's on the minds of a lot of people, especially because your 
generation is a big bulge out there.
    The President. That's right.
    Mr. Brokaw. And the question is, can Chelsea afford you as parents 
in about 10 years? I think that's the relevance of that.
    The President. The answer is there will probably have to be some 
changes in the Social Security system, and what we need to do is to 
preserve its integrity in the same way we did in 1983. In 1983 we had a 
bipartisan commission representing all the various interests in the 
country. They came up with a proposal, and they implemented it. Now, 
then they did raise the payroll tax, but if you look at it now it's a 
long way--this system is solvent till 2019. And so we can make some 
changes now that won't require payroll tax changes that I believe

[[Page 1122]]

will be widely accepted by the American people if we get into it and we 
do it in a totally nonpartisan way, the way we did in '83.
    Mr. Brokaw. There's a growing wave of people out there who believe 
that we ought to either privatize it or give people that option. Do you 
think that's a good idea?
    The President. Well, there's apparently going to be a report issued 
from the advisory commission that will recommend that this be looked 
into. I think if you privatize the whole thing you would really put 
people who are not sophisticated investors and didn't have a lot of 
money on their own at serious risk. If you gave them the option 
individually or as a system to do it, that's something I think you could 
study. You could even--that's something that could be tested.
    But before we do something that totally changes something that's 
worked rather well, there ought to be a way to test it in kind of a 
laboratory sense. And I would favor looking at it very closely with some 
evidence before we made a big, sweeping decision.

Presidential Experience

    Mr. Brokaw. Here's another question. We had 60,000 hits on the 
system and 8,000 questions submitted. What is the most important thing 
that you've learned in the last 4 years?
    The President. That the President can really make a positive 
difference, but that it requires every bit of concentration every day to 
do it. You simply cannot be distracted. You have to keep thinking about 
your job and the American people. That's the most important thing. I 
feel more optimistic today than the day I became President about the 
potential of all of us to change our lives together for the better, 
especially the Presidency. But it requires enormous discipline not to be 
distracted and not to be diverted.
    And I think that--there are a lot of other things I've learned. I've 
learned more humility. There are a lot of things I don't know the 
answers to that I once thought would be easy to find out.
    Mr. Brokaw. Were you ready for primetime when you arrived here, do 
you think?
    The President. I think I knew enough to be President. And I think my 
ideas were right and my vision was right. I think I would have been 
probably a little more successful early on if I had had more Washington 
experience. But I think maybe the fact that I didn't have any made me 
more optimistic about what I could get done and more ambitious. And that 
was good.
    But I think that I'm definitely better at my job than I was 4 years 
ago, in terms of just getting through the day-to-day work of it. I just 
learned a lot. I don't think anyone, even someone who's been around here 
a long time, can be fully prepared for the pressures and the work of the 
Presidency until you actually do the job.

Oil Imports

    Mr. Brokaw. Here's another question, Mr. President, that's very 
relevant and very timely. With U.S. soldiers dying in defense of Saudi 
oil fields, shouldn't we have a renewed vigor about the pursuit of 
freeing the United States from the dependency on foreign oil?
    There's not been much talk recently, fairly, from either party about 
conservation or finding alternative forms of energy.
    The President. Well, we have had--that's one of our budget fights 
that we had with the Republicans. Let me answer that question in two 
parts.
    We are not in Saudi Arabia simply for Saudi oil fields. We're there 
because it's a base from which we can prevent further aggression by 
Saddam Hussein in the area, first. And second, it's a base which enables 
us to cooperate with those who agree with us in the Middle East, 
including many Arab countries, in fighting terrorism. So that's not the 
only reason we're there.
    But we should be trying to become less energy dependent. We have 
worked with Detroit to find a clean car that gets 3 or 4 times the 
average mileage now. We have worked hard on alternative technologies. We 
have worked hard to do things that would make us much more energy 
efficient. And frankly, this Congress disagrees with us on that. They 
don't believe we should be investing money in new technologies to 
achieve energy efficiency. But if you look at the explosion of 
technology that we're celebrating tonight, that same technology is 
available to make us more energy efficient, and we ought to be investing 
a lot more money in it because it's a way of cleaning the environment, 
reducing our dependence on foreign oil, and making us wealthier without 
really eroding the country and the globe that we share.

[[Page 1123]]

Terrorist Attack in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia

    Mr. Brokaw. Why are the Saudis giving us such a bad time on the 
investigation? And we have had to send the FBI Director, Louis Freeh, 
back over there for a second time to try to get things moving again. Why 
can't you get on the phone to King Fahd and say, hey, listen----
    The President. We've had several talks about it, and we expect that 
they will cooperate. And I think there will be cooperation; I do expect 
it. I believe that any time a crime is committed in a country that's 
high profile, that nation wants to believe that it can handle it and do 
what's right. And I understand that. But this is a case with 
international implications, and we have to cooperate.

Income Tax

    Mr. Brokaw. Here's another question from the Internet: Why don't we 
have a flat tax for everyone instead of taxing our income and then 
taxing everything we buy? It was a very popular issue, as you know, 
during the primaries.
    The President. It was. First of all, you should know that as far as 
the Federal income tax, we're getting pretty close to a flat tax. Fifty-
seven percent of the taxpayers over the last couple of years have filled 
out that simple little form and paid the 15 percent with the standard 
deduction. That's pretty close to a flat tax. But I have never seen a 
single tax rate that did not either raise taxes on everybody that was 
making less than $100,000 a year or leave us with a much bigger deficit.
    So I would do anything I can to further simplify the tax system. I'm 
trying to let more people file electronically. I'm all for making the 
forms simpler, the rate structure simpler. But I have never seen a 
plan--I've studied them carefully because I know how much people want to 
be free of it--that doesn't either raise taxes on most people or balloon 
the deficit. And we can't afford to do either one.
    Mr. Brokaw. Mr. President, we have got a lot more ground to cover 
tonight. We do have some telephone calls coming as well as questions 
from the Internet. We'll be back on ``InterNight'' in a moment.
    The President. That's a good question.

[At this point, the network took a commercial break.]

Internet Usage

    Mr. Brokaw. We're back on ``InterNight.'' Mr. President, you and I 
have been looking at another question from the Internet: Does Chelsea 
net surf and, if so, how do you protect her from inappropriate material? 
Does she use the computer pretty handily?
    The President. She does. I don't think she net surfs a lot, simply 
because, at least during the school year, she has too much homework at 
night, for several hours every night. But she does some. And honestly, I 
can't protect her in that sense because she knows so much more about it 
than I do.
    But one of the things that we're trying to do, I think with the 
support of everyone, is, first of all, get a case up to the Supreme 
Court so that they can define what the first amendment requires us to do 
and not to do in terms of legislation here. And then we need to find 
some sort of technological fix. During the break you said that Mr. 
Gates, Bill Gates, said that there's at least a possibility of 
developing a log----
    Mr. Brokaw. Yes, they've got a log built in now that you can go in 
and check on.
    The President. Yes, so the parents can see what's been called up. 
And of course we're working on this V-chip with television and with the 
entertainment industry supporting us with the rating system. So there 
probably will be some sort of technological responses here. But then 
parents like me are going to have to assume the responsibility of 
becoming literate enough with the technology to work with our children 
and make sure that we and they make responsible choices.
    Mr. Brokaw. Mr. President, we promised a lot of viewers out there 
that they could ask questions via telephone. I think we can do that 
right now. We have a call from Leesburg, Virginia. A question for the 
President, please.

College Tuition Deduction

    Q. Mr. President, I'd like to know if the deductible that you have 
proposed for families, the $1,500 for the college students, do you 
expect that that will come to fruition before the end of the year? And 
also I would like to tell you and the First Lady I think you're doing a 
wonderful job.
    The President. Thank you. The truth is, I don't know whether it will 
come to fruition be-


[[Page 1124]]

fore the first of the year. I think there's a chance we could pass it if 
I could reach agreement with the Congress on the balanced budget. Now, 
most of the experts here in town will tell you that's not going to 
happen because we're only 3\1/2\ months away from an election. But I 
still think there is a possibility that we can reach a balanced budget 
agreement. If it does, I will push very hard for my two major education 
proposals. One is a $10,000 deduction for the cost of tuition after high 
school for people without regard to their age, and in addition to that, 
a $1,500 credit for 2 years of college after high school which would, in 
effect, guarantee community college access to people throughout the 
country.
    My goal here is to make college affordable for everyone, but to make 
the second 2 years--at least a community college education--as universal 
within a couple of years as high school is now, because we know we need 
that. I mean, look at what we're celebrating here tonight. We need more 
education. So I expect to push it, and if we don't get it this year and 
I'm successful in the election, then it would be a top priority just as 
soon as the Congress comes in next year.
    Mr. Brokaw. Mr. President, some people believe that, for the moment, 
it's just mostly campaign rhetoric, however, because you have not sent 
anything up to the Hill yet on the college deduction.
    The President. But that's because the only way we can pass it now, 
this year, is if it was put into an omnibus budget agreement. And so 
that's how I will advance it. And I'm still hoping we can do that. You 
know, we've got agreement here--look, we passed an antiterrorism bill 
this year. We passed telecommunications legislation this year. We may 
get welfare reform. We may get the minimum wage; it's looking very good 
on the minimum wage. We might get the Kassebaum-Kennedy health care 
reform bill. If we do all that, I don't see why we couldn't have a 
budget agreement too.

Welfare Reform

    Mr. Brokaw. Mr. President, before we get back to the Internet 
questions, I wanted to follow up just for a moment on welfare if I can. 
If, in fact, you sign the Republican bill that is likely to come down 
from the Hill, all the projections show that that will push, at least 
short-term, more than a million youngsters in this country below the 
poverty line. That's a high risk for youngsters in this country who are 
already in peril.
    The President. That's right. There are two problems there. The main 
reasons for that are the proposal on food stamps, which I think may be 
moderated some, and what I consider to be excessive cuts in assistance 
to legal immigrants. We're not talking about illegal immigrants. So 
before our budget negotiations broke up, I asked the Speaker and then-
Senator Dole--now it would be Senator Lott, of course--to consider 
whether or not we ought to give assistance to the children of legal 
immigrants, at least who were in trouble through no fault of their own; 
the parents had an accident or got cancer or were mugged in a 7-Eleven 
or something. Those kind of folks, it seems to me, we ought to take care 
of the children. Now, if we did that, then I believe you'd see a 
continued reduction in poverty.
    Keep in mind, we let the States experiment with moving people from 
welfare to work. I have granted 67 experiments to 40 States. So 75 
percent of the people on welfare today are already under welfare-to-work 
programs, which have helped to reduce the welfare rolls by 1.3 million. 
Those kids are better off, not worse off, when their folks get off 
welfare. So that's what I want to do for the whole country.
    Mr. Brokaw. In 1992 you said we're going to end welfare as we now 
know it, as we have been practicing it in this country. But most of your 
welfare proposals have been reacting to what the Republicans have 
proposed in the last year or so. There have not been----
    The President. That's not accurate. I started granting these 
waivers--I had to write the last welfare reform law, so I knew the 
President could give States permission to try their own experiments. I 
started doing this in 1993. And then I sent legislation to Congress 
which was not adopted in '94, so I just kept on doing the waivers. Then 
I vetoed the Republican welfare bill, and I kept on doing the waivers.
    So now three out of four people in America are already on welfare 
under welfare-to-work experiments. I think you can make a compelling 
case, as the New York Times said, that we have made a quiet revolution 
in welfare. I'd like to finish it. I'd like to go on and pass welfare 
reform legislation. But we're clearly moving in the right direction.

[[Page 1125]]

China

    Mr. Brokaw. We have another question from the Internet about, in 
fact, foreign policy, and we're going to click on to it right now, even 
as you watch. We'll see how facile our people are, and they're pretty 
good. ``Between the United States and China, what is more important, the 
economy or democracy?'' That's especially a concern to people in Hong 
Kong, obviously----
    The President. Yes.
    Mr. Brokaw. ----because next year the Chinese take over that----
    The President. Well, I believe over the long run between the United 
States and China, the thing that's most important is democracy, because 
I think the freer the people are the more likely they will be to be 
responsible partners. But the implication of that is, therefore, we 
should subordinate our economic goals, or we should withhold most-
favored-nation status from them and not treat them like ordinary 
partners if they're not as democratic as we think they should be. That's 
what I disagree with. That is, imposing some sort of economic sanctions 
will not make China more democratic. I believe they're more likely to 
become democratic if they progress economically, if we have regular 
relationships with them, and if we don't pull any punches when we 
disagree with them if they violate human rights or do other things we 
don't agree with.
    So I believe that economic development and democracy will go hand in 
hand. And there is some evidence of that. If you look at South Korea, 
it's more democratic today than it used to be. It was led by economic 
advances. If you look at Taiwan, they just had a very raucous election 
there with a huge turnout, growing out of incredible economic progress 
in the years before.
    So my hope is that we can find a way to deal with the Chinese and be 
partners with them and agree to disagree but be honest about that so 
that we can follow economic and democratic objectives hand in hand. I 
think that's the way to pursue it.
    Mr. Brokaw. We have a question. I want to remind everybody that we 
do have a telephone number. It's 1-888-676-2287. That translates, you'll 
not be surprised to hear, into MSNBC USA, after the 888 number. We have 
a call now from Miami, Florida, Mr. President.

Immigration and Cuba

    Q. Hello, Mr. President. It's an honor to be speaking with you. As 
Mr. Brokaw said, I'm calling you from Miami and we are a community of 
immigrants and there's two questions regarding this community of 
immigrants that I'd like to ask. It's a two-pronged question, so please 
indulge me.
    Mr. Brokaw. If you could just make it briefly, please.
    Q. The first one has to do with our Cuban community, and we'd like 
to know whether you are going to enforce the title in the Helms-Burton 
bill which allows Cuban-Americans to sue companies and the investors in 
Cuba with confiscated properties.
    And the other question that I'd like to ask you is about the 
Nicaraguan community. As you know, there's a lot of Nicaraguans here in 
Miami, Florida, which have been here for a great deal of time, many have 
been here for over 15 years. And there's a limbo as far as to their 
immigration status goes. Many of them are in great danger because of the 
Simpson-Smith bill which is pending in Congress. I'd like to know 
whether you are leaning towards signing the Simpson-Smith bill and 
whether any decision at all will come regarding the status of the 
Nicaraguans. And I'd really encourage you to do so, to make a positive 
decision. These are communities which have contributed enormously.
    Mr. Brokaw. Let's let the President answer the first one----
    The President. Let me answer the Nicaraguan question first. The bill 
to strengthen our hand in dealing with illegal immigration I am strongly 
inclined to sign if we can get the provision out of there which would 
require schools all over America to kick the children of undocumented 
immigrants out of this country, out of the schools. I think that would 
be a mistake. Every law enforcement group in America has come out 
against kicking the immigrant children out of the schools.
    So we need a bill that would give us some more tools to deal with 
the problem of illegal immigration. It's out of hand, and it's wrong, 
and it's costing the taxpayers too much money, and it's unfair to the 
legal immigrants who wait in line and do what they're supposed to do.
    Now, the Nicaraguans present some special issues, as you pointed 
out, and we will attempt

[[Page 1126]]

to resolve those in a fair and honorable way. But on balance, the 
country needs this illegal immigration bill.
    With regard to the Helms-Burton bill, let me say, first of all, I 
signed it, as you know, after the Cuban Government shot down two 
airplanes and killed American citizens who were in international waters. 
We have already begun to enforce vigorously title IV of the act, which 
revokes the travel privileges to this country from companies that are 
involved in dealing with confiscated property. I have to make a decision 
on title III tomorrow. After this program is over I'm going to have a 
meeting about it, and then I'm going to have another meeting tomorrow. 
And I will make a decision. I have, as I understand it, three or four 
different options under the law. The criteria is that I must do what I 
think is in the national interests of the United States and what is most 
likely to bring democracy to Cuba. And in general, we believe that 
putting more pressure on does that.
    As you know, we've been severely criticized by our European allies 
and others for doing this, and I was for signing the bill. But I believe 
that we have to keep pushing until we get a democratic response and some 
changes in Cuba. But I've not made a decision on specifically what I'm 
going to do on title III, and I can't until I have these meetings 
tonight or tomorrow. I'll make a decision tomorrow.

Former Senator Bob Dole

    Mr. Brokaw. Mr. President, we have another question from the 
Internet on ``InterNight.'' Here it is: What do you admire most about 
Bob Dole, the man you're likely going to be running against next fall?
    The President. Well, there's more than one thing I admire about him, 
but I think the thing I admire most about him is I believe he really 
loves our country. He was hurt very badly in World War II. He could have 
been embittered. He could have walked away. He could have lived a very 
different, secluded life. He threw himself into politics and public 
life.
    And on several occasions when I had to do unpopular things, even 
when he disagreed with me he didn't try to stop me. When I tried to help 
Mexico because I thought it was important--it was unpopular--he agreed 
with me. When I tried to support democracy in Haiti, he disagreed with 
me. When I went into Bosnia, he disagreed with me, but he didn't try to 
interrupt it because he believed that you could only have one President 
at a time.
    And I believe he really loves America. And I think that's the first 
and most important thing for anybody who wants to get into public life. 
And I admire him. I think it's genuine, and I admire it.

Former Governor Richard Lamm

    Mr. Brokaw. What do you think about the issues that your old friend 
Richard Lamm is raising, the former Governor of Colorado, and the manner 
in which he is raising them?
    The President. Well, I haven't--I don't know about the manner in 
which he is raising them. I haven't had much time to keep up with the 
manner in which he is raising them. But I have known him a long time and 
very well. And many of these issues we've discussed probably for 10 
years or more now. And he's a brilliant man, and he's a man with some 
very strong convictions, and he looks at the world in a unique way. And 
I'm looking forward to whatever contribution he makes to this debate.

Democratic Convention

    Mr. Brokaw. Will Mrs. Clinton have a role at the Democratic National 
Convention in Chicago? Do you expect that she'll address the delegates?
    The President. I don't know. She didn't--I don't believe she spoke 
in 1992. There was a campaign film in which she spoke, but I don't 
believe she did. And we really haven't made a lot of the final decisions 
yet.
    It's her hometown, and she's looking forward to kind of hosting a 
lot of things there in Chicago because she always has considered it her 
home, and she still has a lot of friends there from her childhood, and a 
lot of them are very active in the convention. So she'll be very active 
there. But we haven't decided what specifically she'll do.

``Independence Day''

    Mr. Brokaw. Here's a question from the Internet, one more: 
``Independence Day,'' the movie, could we really fight these guys off or 
what, Mr. President?
    The President. I loved it. I loved it and----
    Mr. Brokaw. A lot of people did, apparently.
    The President. Mr. Pullman came and showed it. I thought he made a 
good President. And we watched the movie together, and I told him

[[Page 1127]]

after it was over he was a good President, and I was glad we won. And it 
made me wonder if I should take flying lessons.
    But yes, I think we'd fight them off. We'd find a way to win. That's 
what America does. We'd find a way to win if it happened.
    The good thing about ``Independence Day'' is there's an ultimate 
lesson for that--for the problems right here on Earth. We whipped that 
problem by working together with all these countries. And all of a 
sudden the differences we had with them seemed so small once we realized 
there were threats that went beyond our borders. And I wish that we 
could think about that when we deal with terrorism and when we deal with 
weapons proliferation--the difference between all these other problems. 
That's the lesson I wish people would take away from ``Independence 
Day.''
    Mr. Brokaw. Mr. President, we thank you very much for being our 
first guest here on ``InterNight,'' the new enterprise of MSNBC, which 
combines cable television, of course, and the Internet and telephones 
and over-the-air broadcasting as well. We thank you very much. We wish 
you well, and Bob Dole as well in the coming months.
    The President. Thank you very much.

Note: The interview began at 8 p.m. in the Roosevelt Room at the White 
House. In his remarks, the President referred to President Boris 
Yeltsin, Deputy Foreign Minister Georgiy Mamedov, Prime Minister Viktor 
Chernomyrdin, and Security Council Secretary Aleksandr Lebed of Russia; 
President Saddam Hussein of Iraq; King Fahd bin Abd al-Aziz Al Saud of 
Saudi Arabia; Bill Gates, chairman, Microsoft Corp.; Richard Lamm, 
candidate for the Reform Party nomination for President; and actor Bill 
Pullman. A tape was not available for verification of the content of 
this interview.