    [Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: William J. Clinton (1995, Book I)]
    [April 23, 1995]
    [Pages 574-578]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]

    Interview on CBS' ``60 Minutes''
    April 23, 1995

    Oklahoma City Bombing

        Steve Kroft. Thank you, Mike. Mr. President, you said this afternoon
    that our one duty to the victims and to their families is ``to purge
    ourselves of the dark forces which gave rise to this evil.'' Can you
    bring the country up to date on the status of the investigation?
        The President. Well, as you know, another person was arrested today,
    and the investigation is proceeding aggressively. I have always tried to
    be very careful not to reveal any evidence and to let the Justice
    Department, the Attorney General, and the FBI Director decide what
    should be released when. But I can tell the American people we have
    hundreds of people working on this. They are working night and day. They
    are doing very well. We are making progress.

    Response to Terrorism

        Mr. Kroft. You said immediately after the attack that we will find
    the people who did this, and justice will be swift, certain, and severe.
    If it had turned out that this had been an act of foreign-sponsored
    terrorism, you would have had some limited but very clear options. You
    could have ordered bombing attacks. You could have ordered trade
    embargoes. You could have done a lot of things. But it seems almost
    certain now that this is home-grown terrorism, that the enemy is in fact
    within. How do we respond to that?
        The President. Well, we have to arrest the people who did it. We
    have to put them on trial. We have to convict them. Then we have to
    punish them. I certainly believe that they should be executed. And in
    the crime bill, which the Congress passed last year, we had an expansion
    of capital punishment for purposes such as this. If this is not a crime
    for which capital punishment is called, I don't know what is.

    Capital Punishment

        Ed Bradley. Mr. President, this is Ed Bradley in New York. There are
    many people who would question our system of criminal justice today in
    the United States--in fact, many people who have lost faith in our
    criminal justice system. With so many people languishing on death row
    today for so many years, how can you say with such assurance that
    justice will be certain, swift, and severe?
        The President. Well let me say first of all, it's been a long time
    since there has been a capital case carried through at the national
    level. But our new crime bill permits that. Now, when I was Governor, I
    carried out our capital punishment laws at the State level. We just
    pursued the appeals vigorously. I do believe the habeas corpus
    provisions of the Federal law, which permit these appeals sometimes to
    be delayed 7, 8, 9 years, should be changed. I have advocated that. I
    tried to pass it last year. I hope the Congress will pass a review and a
    reform of the habeas corpus provisions, because it should not take 8 or
    9 years and three trips to the Supreme Court to finalize whether a
    person, in fact, was properly convicted or not.
        Mr. Bradley. But without a change in the law, you think that is what
    will happen?
        The President. It may not happen. We can still have fairly rapid
    appeals processes. But the Congress has the opportunity this year to
    reform

    [[Page 575]]

    the habeas corpus proceedings, and I hope that they will do so.

    Response to Terrorism

        Mike Wallace. Mr. President, Mike Wallace. Are we Americans going to
    have to give up some of our liberties in order better to combat
    terrorism, both from overseas and here?
        The President. Mike, I don't think we have to give up our liberties,
    but I do think we have to have more discipline and we have to be willing
    to see serious threats to our liberties properly investigated. I have
    sent a counterterrorism--a piece of legislation to Capitol Hill which I
    hope Congress will pass. And after consultation with the Attorney
    General, the FBI Director, and others, I'm going to send some more
    legislation to Congress to ask them to give the FBI and others more
    power to crack these terrorist networks, both domestic and foreign.
        We still will have freedom of speech. We'll have freedom of
    association. We'll have freedom of movement. But we may have to have
    some discipline in doing it so we can go after people who want to
    destroy our very way of life.
        You know, we accepted a minor infringement on our freedom, I guess,
    when the airport metal detectors were put up, but they went a long way
    to stop airplane hijackings and the explosion of planes and the
    murdering of innocent people. We're going to have to be very, very tough
    and firm in dealing with this. We cannot allow our country to be subject
    to the kinds of things these poor people in Oklahoma City have been
    through in the last few days.

    White House Security

        Mr. Wallace. People are wondering, Mr. President, if you're going to
    close down Pennsylvania Avenue in front of the White House to regular
    traffic. There are barriers there, of course, all the time. But there
    are those who suggest, particularly because of the man who tried to
    shoot up the White House, that maybe Pennsylvania Avenue itself should
    be shut down.
        The President. Well, I hope that they won't have to do that. I hope
    that ways can be found to make the front of the White House secure
    without doing that, because millions of Americans go by Pennsylvania
    Avenue every year and see the White House and the overwhelming number of
    them are law-abiding, good American citizens, and I hope they won't have
    to do that.

    1993 Tragedy in Waco, Texas

        Mr. Wallace. Lesley Stahl has been out in Michigan with the Michigan
    militia for the past 24 hours. Lesley.
        Lesley Stahl. Mike. Mr. President, what I kept hearing from the
    militia men there--and I gather this is true among all these so-called
    patriots--is the Waco incident. It seems to be their battle cry. It's
    their cause. They say that the Feds went into a religious compound to
    take people's guns away. They say no Federal official was ever punished,
    no one was ever brought to trial. I'm just wondering if you have any
    second thoughts about the way that raid was carried out?
        The President. Let me remind you what happened at Waco and before
    that raid was carried out. Before that raid was carried out, those
    people murdered a bunch of innocent law enforcement officials who worked
    for the Federal Government. Before there was any raid, there were dead
    Federal law enforcement officials on the ground. And when that raid
    occurred, it was the people who ran their cult compound at Waco who
    murdered their own children, not the Federal officials. They made the
    decision to destroy all those children that were there.
        And I think that to make those people heroes after what they did,
    killing our innocent Federal officials and then killing their own
    children, is evidence of what is wrong. People should not be able to
    violate the law and then say if Federal law enforcement officials come
    on my land to arrest me for violating the law or because I'm suspected
    of a crime, I have the right to kill them and then turn around and kill
    the people who live there. I cannot believe that any serious patriotic
    American believes that the conduct of those people at Waco justifies the
    kind of outrageous behavior we've seen here at Oklahoma City or the kind
    of inflammatory rhetoric that we're hearing all across this country
    today. It's wrong.
        Ms. Stahl. But, Mr. President, there are tens, maybe more--tens of
    thousands of men and women dressing up on weekends in military garb
    going off for training because they're upset about Waco. Just what--
    despite what you say, we're talking about thousands and thousands of
    people in this country who are furious at the Federal Government for
    what you say is irrational, but they believe it.

    [[Page 576]]

        The President.  Well, they have a right to believe whatever they
    want. They have a right to say whatever they want. They have a right to
    keep and bear arms. They have a right to put on uniforms and go out on
    the weekends. They do not have the right to kill innocent Americans.
    They do not have the right to violate the law. And they do not have the
    right to take the position that if somebody comes to arrest them for
    violating the law, they're perfectly justified in killing them. They are
    wrong in that.
        This is a freedom-loving democracy because the rule of law has
    reigned for over 200 years now, not because vigilantes took the law into
    their own hands. And they're just not right about that.

    Response to Terrorism

        Mr. Kroft. Mr. President, you have some personal history yourself--
    --
        The President. I do.
        Mr. Kroft. ----with right-wing paramilitary groups when you were
    Governor of Arkansas. You considered proposing a law that would have
    outlawed paramilitary operations. Do you still feel that way? And what's
    your--what, if anything should be done? Do we have the tools? What
    should be done to counteract this threat?
        The President. Well, let me say, first of all, what I have done
    today. I've renewed my call in the Congress to pass the antiterrorism
    legislation that's up there, that I've sent. I have determined to send
    some more legislation to the Hill that will strengthen the hand of the
    FBI and other law enforcement officers in cracking terrorist networks,
    both domestic and foreign. I have instructed the Federal Government to
    do a preventive effort on all Federal buildings that we have today. And
    we're going to rebuild Oklahoma City.
        Now, over and above that, I have asked the Attorney General, the FBI
    Director, and the National Security Adviser to give me a set of things,
    which would go into a directive, about what else we should do. I don't
    want to prejudge this issue.
        When I was Governor of Arkansas, this is over 10 years ago now, we
    became sort of a campground for some people who had pretty extreme
    views. One of them was a tax resister who had killed people in another
    State, who subsequently killed a sheriff who was a friend of mine and
    was himself killed. One was the man, Mr. Snell, who was just executed a
    couple of days ago, who killed a State trooper in cold blood who was a
    friend of mine and servant of our State and got the death penalty when I
    was Governor. One was a group of people who had among them women and
    children but also two men wanted on murder warrants. And thank God we
    were able to quarantine their compound. And that was all resolved
    peacefully.
        But I have dealt with this extensively. And I know the potential
    problems that are there. I don't want to interfere with anybody's
    constitutional rights. But people do not have a right to violate the law
    and do not have a right to encourage people to kill law enforcement
    officials and do not have a right to take the position that if a law
    enforcement officer simply tries to see them about whether they've
    violated the law or not, they can blow him to kingdom come. That is
    wrong.
        Mr. Kroft. One of the things, or one of the most frightening things
    about this whole business, has been the fact that most of the materials
    that this bomb was made from are readily available. Great Britain, for
    example, has placed some controls over the concentrations of certain
    chemicals and explosives in fertilizer, for example. Are there things
    that can be done to eliminate availability and the accessibility of
    ingredients that can turn deadly?
        The President. There may be some things that we can do both to
    eliminate them or to make it more difficult to aggregate them or to make
    sure that the elements will be identified in some way if they're ever
    used in a bomb so people know they're far more likely to get caught. All
    these things are being discussed now, and that's what I've asked the
    Attorney General, the FBI Director, and the National Security Adviser to
    make recommendations to me on.
        Members of Congress have various ideas and have made suggestions.
    Law enforcement people and other concerned folks around the country
    have. They're going to gather up the best ideas and make these
    recommendations to me in fairly short order.

    Oklahoma City Bombing

        Mr. Bradley. Mr. President, do you think that what happened in
    Oklahoma City is an isolated incident carried out by a handful of people
    or is part of a larger, more coordinated effort involving a larger
    network of these groups?

    [[Page 577]]

        The President. I don't think the evidence that we have at the
    present time supports the latter conclusion. And I think we should stick
    to the evidence. Just as I cautioned the American people earlier not to
    stereotype any people from other countries or of different ethnic groups
    as being potentially responsible for this, I don't want to castigate or
    categorize any groups here in America and accuse them of doing something
    that we don't have any evidence that they have done.
        I do want to say to the American people, though, we should all be
    careful about the kind of language we use and the kind of incendiary
    talk we have. We never know who's listening or what impact it might
    have. So we need to show some restraint and discipline here because of
    all the people in this country that might be on edge and might be
    capable of doing something like this horrible thing in Oklahoma City.

    Response to Terrorism

        Mr. Wallace.  To follow on Steve's question, Mr. President, no
    longer does terrorism have to be state-supported. There's terror on the
    cheap now. It cost the World Trade Center bomber, we understand,
    conceivably $3,000, $4,000 for all of what was involved, including the
    rental of the van. And today, I learned, that it's about $1,000 worth
    for the explosives and the van and so forth in the Oklahoma City
    bombing. What do you do about terror on the cheap?
        The President. Well, you're right about that. And of course, the
    same thing could be true of the terrible things they've been going
    through in Japan. But the nations of this world are going to have to get
    together, bring our best minds together, and figure out what to do about
    this.
        We have been working hard to try to get the legal support we need to
    move against terrorism, to try to make sure that we can find out who's
    doing these kind of things before they strike. But I do think there are
    some other things that we can do.
        At one point people thought we couldn't do anything about airplanes,
    but we made some progress, significant progress, because of things like
    airport metal detectors and other sophisticated devices. And we'll
    tackle this. We'll make progress on this. We'll unravel it. But it is
    true that in a free society that is very open, where technological
    changes bring great opportunity, they also make it possible to do
    destructive things on the cheap--to use your phrase.
        So we're going to have to double up, redouble up our efforts and
    then figure out what to do about this. But we'll move on it, and I am
    confident that I'll have some further recommendations in the near
    future.

    Oklahoma City Bombing

        Mr. Wallace. CBS News has a report--or had a report, late this
    afternoon; I don't know whether you're familiar with it--about a man by
    the name of Mark Koernke, from the Michigan Militia, who apparently sent
    a fax, a memo, to Congressman Steve Stockman of Texas, who held onto it
    for awhile, and finally sent it to the NRA. And then the NRA held it--
    and it was important information, apparently--held it for 24 hours
    before they sent it on to the FBI. Can you shed any light on that?
        The President. No. I can't shed any light on that. I don't want to
    do or say anything that would impair our investigation in this case. And
    I have urged other Americans to show that kind of restraint, and I must
    do so as well.

    Violence in American Culture

        Mr. Kroft. Mr. President, do you think that we are a violent nation,
    that violence is part of the American way of life?
        The President. Well, we've always had a fair amount of violence. But
    organized, systematic, political violence that leads to large numbers of
    deaths has not been very much in evidence in American history except
    from time to time. That is, we're a nation--we're still a kind of a
    frontier nation. We're a nation that believes, indeed, enshrines in our
    Constitution the right to keep and bear arms. A lot of us, including the
    President, like to hunt and fish and do things like that. And then, of
    course, the number of guns in our country is far greater than any other,
    and a lot of them are misused in crimes and a lot of them lead to
    deaths. And there are a lot of knives and other weapons that don't have
    anything to do with guns that lead to death.
        So we've had a lot of crime and violence in our country, but not
    this sort of organized, political mass killing. And we have got to take
    steps aggressively to shut it down. And I'm going to do everything in my
    power to do just that.
        Mr. Wallace. You asked--I'm sure you asked yourself--we ask, why
    did--why did these peo-

    [[Page 578]]

    ple do it? The director of the Terrorism Studies Center over at the
    University of St. Andrew in Scotland says that these attacks, he
    expects, are going to be increasingly brutal, more ruthless, less
    idealistic. For some, he says, violence becomes an end in itself, a
    cathartic release, a self-satisfying blow against the hated system.
    Little that can be done about that, if indeed the man's right.
        The President. Well, I think two things that could be done--these
    are things that you could help on. For all those people who think that
    they are going to have a self-satisfying blow against the system, I wish
    they could have seen that young woman that I stood by today who showed
    me the picture of her two young boys that are dead now, or those three
    children that I saw today whose mother died last year of an illness who
    lost their father--he still has not been found. I wish they could see
    the faces of these people. There is no such thing as a self-satisfying
    blow against the system. These are human beings, and there are
    consequences to this kind of behavior.
        The other thing I think we could do, in addition to showing those
    people, is to ask the American people who are out there just trying to
    keep everybody torn up and upset all the time, purveying hate and
    implying at least with words that violence is all right, to consider the
    implications of their words and to call them on it.
        We do have free speech in this country, and we have very broad free
    speech, and I support that. But I think that free speech runs two ways.
    And when people are irresponsible with their liberties, they ought to be
    called up short, and they ought to be talked down by other Americans.
    And we need to expose these people for what they're doing. This is
    wrong. This is wrong. You never know whether there's some fragile person
    who's out there about to tip over the edge thinking they can make some
    statement against the system and all of a sudden there's a bunch of
    innocent babies in a day care center dead.
        And so I say to you, in America, we can be better than that. The
    predictions of the expert in Scotland don't have to be right for
    America. But we're going to have to examine ourselves, our souls, and
    our conduct if we want it to be different.
        Mr. Wallace. Final question: Do we see too much violence in movies
    and television in the United States?
        The President. Well, I have said before, I said in my State of the
    Union Address, that I think we see it sometimes when it's disembodied
    and romanticized, when you don't deal with the consequences of it. I
    think--when a movie shows violence, if it's honest and it's horrible and
    it's ugly and there are human consequences, then maybe that's a
    realistic and a decent thing to do. That movie ``Boyz N the Hood,'' I
    thought, did a good job of that.
        But when a movie--when movie after movie after movie after movie
    sort of romanticizes violence and killing and you don't see the human
    consequences, you don't see the faces of the mothers and the children
    that I saw today, the husbands and the wives, then I think too much of
    it can deaden the senses of a lot of Americans. And we need to be aware
    of that.
        But it's not just the movies showing violence. It's the words
    spouting violence, giving sanction to violence, telling people how to
    practice violence that are sweeping all across the country. People
    should examine the consequences of what they say and the kind of
    emotions they are trying to inflame.

    Note: The interview began at 6:03 p.m. The President spoke from the
    Oklahoma State Fair Arena in Oklahoma City. The interviewers were CBS
    correspondents Steve Kroft, Ed Bradley, Mike Wallace, and Lesley Stahl.