    [Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: William J. Clinton (1994, Book II)]
    [November 6, 1994]
    [Pages 2018-2028]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]

    Interview With Larry King in Seattle, Washington
    November 6, 1994

        Mr. King. Welcome to a special Sunday night edition of ``Larry King
    Live.'' Our special guest is the President of the United States. A
    beautiful day here in Seattle; it rained earlier this morning, but
    there's no city like this. You seemed revved up here today.
        The President. It's a wonderful city. They've been very good to me.
    But it's just an exciting place. It's a real future-oriented place with
    a lot of different kinds of folks. They get together. They work
    together. It's a real upbeat, positive city.

    Midterm Elections

        Mr. King. Do you like campaigning again?
        The President. I do.
        Mr. King. It seemed like you were just campaigning.
        The President. I know.
        Mr. King. Do you like this?
        The President. I do like it. In large measure I like it because it's
    one of the few times I get to really go out and put out our record, my
    message. And I also just like to see the American people. You know, I
    like to see them excited and energized again.
        Mr. King. I remember when you were running. We were in Ocala, and
    you said to me, ``God, I love this.''
        The President. It was wonderful. Remember that we were in that rodeo
    arena? Remember that?
        Mr. King. Where Elvis Presley once sang.
        The President. Yes, that's right.
        Mr. King. You were revved up, and you seem the same way now. It
    would seem that after this time you've been President for 2 years that
    it's old hat by now.
        The President. But these are the people I work for. And perhaps the
    most frustrating part of being President is how hard it is to stay in
    touch with them, to stay connected to them, for them to really know what
    you do on a daily basis. And so to be able to come back out here with
    someone like Ron Sims, whom I admire so much, that represents what's
    best in this country, that's cutting against all this cynicism and
    negativism that is blanketing the airwaves, it's really just a great
    thing to do.

    Negativism in Politics

        Mr. King. What do you make of that? We'll start there. And there's
    lots of bases we're going to cover, of these--lots of radio talk shows,
    other areas of negativism, that's more than just criticism. It's anger.
    What do you make of it?
        The President. Well, it's almost like an institutionalized approach
    to life, you know, that every-

    [[Page 2019]]

    thing is given the most negative possible spin, information is presented
    in attack mode. The American people hate it, but they react to it.
        Mr. King. But portions of them listen to it.
        The President. Portions of them listen to it, of course. And even if
    they listen for entertainment, the surveys show in these elections that
    they react to it, which is, of course, why the politicians do it.
        Mr. King. So what does it mean to you when you see it, hear it,
    about you, about people you like, about anyone?
        The President. Well, it--what I think is it's not very good for
    America. It's not good for our people. It makes it harder for people to
    take a deep breath and face their problems and seize their opportunities
    and move forward.
        I mean, this is a very, very great country. And as I have a chance,
    for example, to go to the Middle East to participate in that peace
    signing, other leaders are bewildered at the negative attitudes in
    America. They say, ``Gosh, you know, your economy is coming back; your
    deficit's going down; things are happening in your country. You're
    leading the way to peace around the world. Why would the American people
    be in a negative frame of mind?'' And I always say, well, first of all,
    a lot of Americans have personal insecurity in their lives. I mean,
    let's face it, there's some reality out there. There are a lot of people
    who are afraid they're going to lose their jobs. They haven't gotten a
    raise in a long time. They may lose their health care or their
    retirement. They're living in a neighborhood where they feel personally
    insecure. They see things like these children killing children. It
    violates their sense of----
        Mr. King. So they have a right to that feeling?
        The President. Well, no, there's some insecurity there. In other
    words, the picture is not all positive. But I think the direction is
    positive, and the future is more positive than negative. But I think the
    other thing is, the overwhelming way that most Americans get their
    information tends to be both negative and combative and assaultive,
    almost. And what I tried to do in the Presidential campaign in '92 with
    all those town meetings, starting way back in '91, where I listened to
    people and they talked to me, with insisting on three debates and having
    one debate with the public there asking questions of the candidates for
    President, with the bus tours we did was all designed to get people
    involved, let them vent their frustrations, and then focus on what we
    were going to do.
        And that's very important. And that's the thing that has been
    missing too much in this election. And of course, the Republicans like
    that because if people are mad, then they think the Democrats don't vote
    and the extremists on the right in their party do vote, they get a big
    advantage and it helps them get into power. But it doesn't do anything
    to help America solve their problems.
        Mr. King. How do you deal with it personally, I mean, the carping,
    the anger, the up and down in the polls, personally?
        The President. Well, on the up and down in the polls, I basically
    try to ignore it.
        Mr. King. Ignore it?
        The President. Not because--I care what people think about the
    issues, but I knew when I started this job that while everybody said
    they wanted us to change, if it were easy to do it, someone else would
    have done it. So to get the deficit down, we had to make some tough
    decisions.
        If you're going to make college loans more affordable to Americans
    within the budgetary constraints we had, we had to make some tough
    decisions, take on some interest groups. If you want to pass the Brady
    bill and the crime bill, you've got to make some tough decisions. The
    NRA got real mad at us, and now they're trying to take it out on every
    candidate in the country that stood up for safer streets.
        So anybody who ever fights for change is going to have to be willing
    to risk going down in the polls some. What bothers me more is the
    general atmosphere where people tend to believe the worst about people
    in public life, rather than the best, and tend to have a negative view,
    generally. Because the truth is that this country is in better shape
    than it was 21 months ago. Unemployment is down. Jobs are up. The
    deficit's down. The Government is smaller, but it's doing more for
    ordinary working people. The streets are going to be safer because of
    the crime bill. And we're a lot closer toward having a safer, more
    democratic, more free world. The Russian missiles aren't pointing at us.
    The North Korean nuclear agreement means they won't present a threat to
    us in terms of nuclear weapons, if we go through with that. We have the
    progress in Haiti and in the Persian Gulf and the Middle East and
    Northern Ireland. We are moving in the right direction at home and

    [[Page 2020]]

    abroad. We have a lot of problems, but we're moving in the right
    direction.
        And for people to be kept in a constant turmoil all the time, where
    they don't listen to one another, they don't talk to one another, they
    just are bombarded by these negative ads on television, I think is not
    good for our democracy. And it is, frankly, not realistic. If you could
    see the way other people look at us, they know this is a very great
    country. And we should feel that way, too.
        Mr. King. When there's extreme negativism, do you condemn it on both
    sides?
        The President. Sure.
        Mr. King. When Democrats do it and Republicans do it?
        The President. Absolutely. Particularly if it is unrelated to the
    work of the job, you know. But let's be realistic, now. This whole thing
    started from the get-go with the determination of the congressional
    leadership in the Republican Party not to work with us on the economic
    program.
        Mr. King. Deliberate?
        The President. Oh, absolutely. They were very forthright about it:
    ``You're not going to get any votes out of us no matter how you change
    this program.'' That's how it started.

    [At this point, the stations took a commercial break.]

    Death of Smith Children in Union, SC

        The President. [Inaudible]--were abducted. And there was this little
    town in South Carolina where there apparently had been maybe some
    division or something in the past, but they were all coming together.
    You saw those gripping pictures of the schoolchildren praying. You saw
    blacks and whites going out together to look for the kids. People really
    were trying to do their best to do a good and noble thing.
        And then they found out that the mother had done it. And unlike
    previous cases--we've had some other cases, horrible cases, where
    parents kill their children. But this was--it stood in such stark
    contrast to those people praying, working, desperately trying to find
    those children. I think they had a sense of betrayal, of outrage, of
    bewilderment, of pain. And I think the experience that the people in the
    community felt riveted all across our country, indeed, across the world.
    I think every parent was just sickened by it.

    Racial Issues

        Mr. King. The fact that--and remember the case in Boston with the
    call to 911--that she drew the picture of a black man tells us what
    about racism in America?
        The President. I think it tells us that we have at least some
    assumptions about race that still color our thinking, our talking,
    sometimes our voting. The people in that community, without regard to
    race, were out there looking for those boys. And most African-Americans
    in this country get up every day and go to work, work their hearts out,
    pay their taxes, raise their kids, obey the law. And while the crime
    rate is higher among African-Americans, they're also more likely to be
    victims of crime. And it's all really--it's a complicated thing, but
    it's plainly related to the combined impact of the breakdown of family
    and community and the loss of economic opportunity working together.
        I saw a poll in the Wall Street Journal the other day, a fascinating
    poll, which said that both African-Americans and white Americans agreed
    that this breakdown of social order in the family, the community, the
    rise of crime, violence, drugs and gangs and guns was the biggest
    problem in our country. They agreed with that. They all supported
    welfare reform--I mean, not all, 85 percent of both races. But there was
    a huge difference in attitude between blacks and the whites about what
    caused it, where the whites were more likely to say it's just all
    personal misconduct, and the blacks were more likely to say it was the
    breakdown of economic order and opportunity that holds families together
    and gives people----
        Mr. King. The classic American clash.
        The President. Yes. And the truth is, in my judgment, they're both
    right, and they're both wrong. That is, you need a combined approach to
    it. We have to rebuild these communities. It's hard to have an orderly
    society without work. It's hard to have a coherent family without work.
    It's hard for parents to have all the self-respect they want if they
    know they'll never have a chance to go to work.
        But on the other hand, we simply cannot tolerate the behavior that
    has become all too commonplace. I mean, what is it that turns the heart
    of a 10-year-old to stone in Chicago and makes it possible for them to
    let go of a 5-year-old boy? These are big, deep questions. And again I
    say, the thing that is so wrong

    [[Page 2021]]

    about so much of the political dialog in this election or political ads,
    is there's no dialog. There's no honest talk. People aren't reaching out
    across racial lines and trying to figure out how to affirm what is best
    in this country, how to support the lives and the futures of these kids.
        Mr. King. Are you saying they're playing to the worst in us, the
    racist in us?
        The President. I think they're playing to the--they're playing to
    the lowest common denominator, to the fear, to the division, to the
    anxiety. I believe that it's better to play to the best in us, to
    address fear, to address anxiety, to admit it, to say it's legitimate,
    say, okay, what are you going to do about it?

    Midterm Elections

        Mr. King. Is this the ugliest off-year elections, politically,
    advertising-wise, you've seen?
        The President. Well, certainly the most expensive and probably the
    most negative certainly in a very long time. And it's very troubling.
    You know, I tried to get this campaign finance bill passed. And it was
    delayed to death at the end of the session by our opponents, like a lot
    of other bills were. But we don't need that. We need to reform the
    campaign finance system.
        In every one of these races of major importance, there ought to be
    two or three debates. There ought to be town hall meetings. There ought
    to be things that involve people, that let them express their anger and
    frustration and then say, ``Okay, now, what are you going to do about
    it?'' Because what we run the risk of doing in this election--which is
    why I've been out here working like crazy since I got home from the
    Middle East--is we run the risk of seeing people vote for candidates
    whose platforms and positions they absolutely disagree with just because
    they say, ``I'm out; put me in. I'm mad, too.''
        Mr. King. ``Throw the rascals out.''
        The President. ``Government's bad; put me in.'' Yes.

    O.J. Simpson Trial

        Mr. King. I haven't seen you quoted on it, and every American has
    talked about it and they all want to know what their President thinks.
    You were an attorney general in your State, a prosecutor, so it's a
    twofold question: Can there be a fair trial in the O.J. Simpson case?
    And two, should television cameras be allowed?
        The President. Well, the answer to the first question is, I think
    there can be a fair trial, but it is much more difficult to empanel a
    jury that has no opinion.
        Mr. King. There's never been anything like this.
        The President. No, there has never been anything like it. Secondly,
    I'm not so troubled about the trial itself being televised. What bothers
    me is that all the previous proceedings have been televised, all the
    preliminary things, all the back-and-forth arguments. And I know there
    are arguments pro and con. But on balance, I think it would have been
    better if they hadn't been, because I think it would have been easier to
    empanel a jury that had no fixed views, no--at least predisposition to
    believe it. Now, what these folks have to say and what they had to
    convince the judge of was that whatever they had heard in the past, they
    could put aside and be fair.
        But I just think all of us, we can't help being affected by the
    things we know. And the wrenching pretrial publicity I think is more
    damaging than whatever publicity might have come in the trial itself.
        Mr. King. Are you impressed with Judge Ito?
        The President. Very much.
        Mr. King. And the prosecution and defense?
        The President. They all strike me as competent and committed. And
    the judge strikes me as someone who has been firm and fair. He's trying
    very hard, and he has an enormously difficult task.
        Mr. King. Is this the kind of case, when you were prosecuting, you
    would have liked to prosecute or not like to prosecute?
        The President. Well, of course, any--I think most prosecutors would,
    at a kind of a personal, professional level, welcome the chance to be in
    a big case like this. But it's a very sad case. It's the sort of thing
    that brings great pain to a country.
        Mr. King. No winners.
        The President. No. I mean, there are--people are dead. The feelings
    that we all had about O.J. Simpson and everything--it's a very sad case.
    So it's not something I can say I would relish doing because the whole
    thing is enormously tragic.

    [The stations took a commercial break.]

    [[Page 2022]]

    Midterm Elections

        Mr. King. Beautiful downtown Seattle on a beautiful Sunday afternoon
    in the American-Pacific Northwest with President Bill Clinton, 2 days
    away from the election. Friday night on this program, Bob Dole said that
    on Tuesday night, when the Republicans take the Senate--if they take the
    Senate and the House, the first person he calls will be you. He will ask
    to meet with you Wednesday morning. Win or lose, whatever happens,
    they're ready to cooperate. Comment.
        The President. I don't think they're going to win the House and the
    Senate. But whatever happens, I hope he'll call me Tuesday night, and I
    hope he'll be willing to cooperate.
        Mr. King. Hope, but don't think?
        The President. Well, I don't know yet. All I can tell you is that we
    had bipartisan support for that crime bill, and it turned into naked
    politics. And the Republicans that did stick with us were lacerated by
    their leadership.
        I hope they don't really, seriously believe that we can go back and
    do what they did in the eighties and have all these massive tax cuts for
    upper income people and pay for big defense increases and bring back
    Star Wars and balance the budget in 5 years and not tell anybody how to
    do it. There is no way to do it without massive, massive cuts in Social
    Security, Medicare, college loans. If you take Social Security off, you
    have to cut everything else in the budget 30 percent.
        So all I'm saying is, I want to cooperate. I always wanted to
    cooperate. My door has always been open. I tried to cooperate in the
    health care debate. When we started the health care debate----
        Mr. King. They said you didn't. They said it was secretive.
        The President. No, that's not true. We met with them in advance. We
    even offered to work with them on drafting a bill. We were told, ``No,
    you go ahead and put your bill in; then we'll put our bill in and then
    we'll work.'' They announced an approach where more than half the
    Republican Senators supported universal coverage. The bill never came.
    By the time it came to talk about the bill, there were zero Senators
    from the Republican Party on that.
        So--and by the way, then they released the memo of their strategist,
    Bill Kristol, who wasn't even ashamed to release the memo and say, ``You
    must not cooperate on health care because if the middle class ever gets
    security about health care, they'll probably support the Democrats
    again. Whereas, if we keep them all torn up and upset and angry, we can
    either keep them home or get them to vote for us.''
        So I want--let me just say this--I want more than anything to have a
    bipartisan effort. I want more than anything to move this country
    forward, not see it go back. But I have not obstructed that bipartisan
    effort. My door has been open. I have wanted to work together. And I
    have seen a level of intense obstructionism that I never thought I'd
    ever see.
        So what the American people have to say is--first of all, I think
    we're going to do better than everybody thinks because jobs are up,
    unemployment is down, the deficit is down, the Government is smaller,
    all these things are different from the way it was before. We are doing
    things for ordinary Americans like middle class college loans, national
    service, tax cuts for low-income working people, the Family and Medical
    Leave Act. When people know this, I think we're going to do much better
    than the experts think, because I think people want to keep going
    forward, they don't want to go back.
        But whatever happens, I hope we talk. I have always wanted to talk;
    I have always been willing to meet. And I hope we work together.
        Mr. King. Worse-case scenario--they take the House. Could you work
    with Newt Gingrich?
        The President. I can work with anybody who will work with me. But I
    do not believe the American people really want us to go back----
        Mr. King. I meant worst-case scenario for you. I'm not taking a
    stand. For you, worst-case scenario.
        The President. I can work--the American people are the bosses of
    this country. They run this country. They decide who's in the Congress,
    and they decide who's President.
        Mr. King. You work for them.
        The President. I work for them. And so does the Congress. So we will
    do what we are told to do by the American people. They are the bosses.
    But I will say again, I have worked very hard to get this economy going,
    to bring the deficit down, to get investment back in education and
    training, to pass that crime bill--and now we have to implement it so we
    make our streets safer--to make our country stronger. What I think is
    going to happen is the American people are going to think about, in the
    next

    [[Page 2023]]

    couple of days, do we want to keep going forward, or do we really want
    to go back to trickle-down economics? Do we want to go back to exploding
    the deficit, shipping the jobs overseas, causing the country trouble, or
    do we want to keep working forward?
        A lot of Republicans did work with me. But without exception, when
    they work with me on anything tough--except for the trade bill, except
    for NAFTA, and except for some education legislation, in a lot of these
    other areas they were subject to withering, withering pressure and
    attack from the leaders of their own party. So I want to work with them,
    however these elections come out. I think we'll probably see the
    Democrats keep control of the Senate and the House because we are
    changing things for the better, and the American people now are seeing
    what the record is.
        Mr. King. But you'll take that call, and you'll meet with whoever it
    is you have to meet with?
        The President. Absolutely. That's right. You bet I would. I would
    have always taken it. I want it to be that way. When I ran for
    President, I ran as a former Governor--I was a Governor. I never shut
    the Republicans out of my office. I always thought my job was to work
    with anybody the people elected. That's the right thing to do.

    [The stations took a commercial break.]

        Mr. King. Sunday evening in Seattle with the President of the United
    States, Bill Clinton. A lot of bases to touch, and later we'll get some
    predictions on some individual races that the President is very aware
    of.
        A couple of other things in the news. Johnny Apple today in the New
    York Times says that the administration is starting to take on a Truman-
    esque approach already: They're the bad guys. And that's the way Harry
    Truman won in '48, by knocking the no-good, do-nothing Congress. Are we
    adopting that mode?
        The President. No. For one thing, I don't believe we're going to
    lose the Congress if the American people know what has been done.
        Mr. King. So you'll have no Congress to knock in '96.
        The President. There is--well, whether the Democrats or the
    Republicans are in the majority, a minority can frustrate the will of
    the majority just with the filibuster in the Senate, if for nothing
    else, which killed the campaign finance reform, lobby reform,
    environmental reform, and a number of other things last year.
        My instinct is to get something done. But this Congress that we just
    finished was only the third one since World War II that cooperated with
    the President in over 80 percent of the President's initiatives in both
    years. That only happened three times since World War II, once for
    President Eisenhower, once for President Johnson, and then this one.
        Mr. King. So there's no Truman plan.
        The President. No. I'll say again, it depends on who the American
    people send to Congress and what their attitude is. I will work with
    anybody who will work with me to move the country forward. When I ran
    for President in '92, I said I thought the Democratic Party had to
    change. We had to do something about getting the economy going again,
    bringing the deficit down, shrinking the Government, being tougher on
    crime, all things the Republicans had previously said they were for,
    although the deficit went up, the economy was in trouble, and they just
    talked about crime for 6 years.
        All right, now we have reduced the deficit, reduced the size of the
    Government, passed a good crime bill, which now will have to be
    implemented at the grassroots level. Even as we speak, we've got police
    officers being hired all over the country because of this crime bill.
        What are we going to do? My door is open. My hand is outstretched. I
    am a builder, not a blamer. I'm not like that.
        Mr. King. This ain't going to be a Truman ``give 'em hell, Bill''
    campaign?
        The President. It depends on what they do. It depends on what they
    do. If they want to work with me, then we will work together. I do
    believe that we're going to--that the people who gum up the works need
    to be held more accountable.
        Mr. King. You're optimistic.
        The President. I am optimistic.

    Administration Accomplishments

        Mr. King. Reports in recent books of disorganization in the
    Presidency, 2 years of unwieldiness, I'm sure you've heard about this,
    if you haven't read the books. Comment?
        The President. Well, my comment is, if we were all that
    disorganized, how do we have the third most successful record in success
    with Congress, one of only three with over 80 percent of our initiatives
    passing, including major

    [[Page 2024]]

    advances in bringing the deficit down, education reform, trade
    expansion, crime, and a number of other things, first of all? Secondly,
    we've done pretty well in foreign policy: no Russian missiles pointed at
    the United States, North Korea, Haiti, Northern Ireland, the Persian
    Gulf, the Middle East.
        Mr. King. Are you saying we're looking at the process, not the
    result?
        The President. But I'm saying the process is more open than perhaps
    in previous administrations because we are going through a period of
    historic change. And when--for example, when I tried to get my economic
    program together, after I was elected, but before I took office, we all
    agreed we had to bring the deficit down; we still had to invest more in
    education and defense conversion and new technologies. And we had to do
    things that would expand the economy. We wanted to help low-income
    working families. And we wanted some other incentives to spur economic
    growth that cost money, some tax incentives. But there were all kinds of
    differences on the details.
        So we got a lot of people in from different points of view, and we
    talked it through. And it was a lively process. Now some people wanted
    to have the image that somebody brings a President a little one-page
    memo with two options, and you just check off and say that's the way it
    is, and it's all neat. This is a complicated world with a lot of
    variables.
        Mr. King. Is yours too open?
        The President. I don't think so. It may be unsettling to people that
    we have honest debates in the White House. But you know, when I think
    about some of the major mistakes that my predecessors have made, I think
    the absence of honest debate may have caused some of that.
        So, can we get the process better? Can we get better organized? I
    think so. I think that the White House today is much better organized
    than it was 30 days after I took office. I think it's more orderly; it's
    running more smoothly, decisions are made in a more disciplined fashion.
    I think a lot of people have learned to do their jobs better and better
    and better.
        But again, I say the--a lot of the best companies I know of in
    America have very lively, open discussions on important issues. They
    take real time on important issues because then that shapes what the
    future is. And so far, I say, if you judge us on our results, we're
    making pretty good decisions.

    Health Care Reform

        Mr. King. Critics have said now that you fired your wife from health
    care. I haven't seen you comment. What caused this change, and who's
    running the health care battle?
        The President. Oh, I didn't do that.
        Mr. King. She has not been fired?
        The President. No. But she was never hired. She was a volunteer.
        Mr. King. I know, but critics are saying--what happened in that
    change?
        The President. For one thing, there's no process to manage now. She
    never did--she never signed on to, agreed to, or was willing to manage
    the congressional process. What she did----
        Mr. King. She took the ball, though.
        The President. She took the ball, but what she did was to put
    hundreds and hundreds of people together to go out and consult all the
    Members of Congress, to run a 2-day seminar on health care for
    Republicans and Democrats in Congress, and to try to get the work
    product up and then be the spokesperson. Now whatever we wind up doing
    on health care, she will be still speaking out on that and doing a
    number of other things.
        Mr. King. Then what was the announcement?
        The President. But the--what we were saying is that she wouldn't
    have primary responsibility for actually deciding what move next to make
    in Congress and lobbying that. That's not a good thing for the First
    Lady to have to do and not anything she signed on to do the first time
    around.
        Mr. King. Did she dislike doing it?
        The President. No, I think she liked it, but she didn't want to be
    in a position where that's all she would do. And that's the only issue
    she could be involved in, and she didn't want to be in a position
    where--she got caught up----
        Mr. King. She became the focus.
        The President. It's where she got caught up in the process of--the
    lobbying of the Congress process. She wants to be a spokesperson for
    health care, for solving a problem, not the person who has to manage the
    process in Congress. And I don't think she should be.
        Mr. King. So we will be hearing a lot from Hillary in the next 2
    years.
        The President. Yes, she--you know, she's invested a lot in this.
    She's done a wonderful job. And she's--what we think about the health
    care deal is that, first of all, keep in mind how

    [[Page 2025]]

    long it takes to get things done in Washington. Family leave took 7
    years. The Brady bill took 7 years. The crime bill took 6 years. Banking
    reform took 7 years. I mean, we've gotten things done that took years
    that other people couldn't do. But it was probably unrealistic to think
    you could get health care reform in a year and a half, given the fact
    that it's bigger than all those other things.

    [The stations took a commercial break.]

    California Senatorial Campaign

        Mr. King. [Inaudible]--on this beautiful Sunday in Seattle--
    [laughter]--a little off-the-cuff joke there, folks, best left unsaid--
    with the President of the United States, Bill Clinton. By the way, this
    is the President's seventh appearance, all together, running and as
    President, on this program. It's always great to have him with us. We're
    touching a lot of bases. Now some election bases. Going to win the
    Senate in California?
        The President. I think Senator Feinstein will win. If there was a
    ever a case for campaign finance reform, it's this. The Republican
    candidate moves to California in '91 from Texas, essentially buys a
    Congress race, announces 8 months later for the Senate, loses his own
    congressional district in the Republican Senate campaign but spends, it
    looks like, $35 million or something, some enormous amount of money,
    just to run negative ads against Feinstein.
        She, by contrast, in only 2 years, passes the assault weapons ban, a
    law that requires zero tolerance for handgun possessions in schools by
    students, and the biggest protection act, natural protection act in
    history, the California desert bill.
        Mr. King. It's his money, though.
        The President. It's his money, but it shows you why we need some
    sort of campaign finance reform. No Senator in my lifetime has gotten as
    much done in as short a period of time as Dianne Feinstein. And those
    three things may not be popular everywhere, but they are supported by a
    majority of the people of California.

    Washington Congressional Campaign

        Mr. King. Three hundred miles from here, over the hills in Spokane--
    Mr. Foley, Speaker of the House--what's going to happen there?
        The President. Well, you know, he was way behind. He's fought
    himself back to where he's even, some say a little ahead. I think the
    people of every--every time there's a Speaker who comes from a rural
    district, there's always the problem of the people in the district
    thinking that the Speaker is more interested in the national job than
    the grassroots job.
        All I can say is that of all the leaders of Congress I've ever known
    in both Houses and in both parties, Tom Foley is the one who speaks most
    often about his constituency and is most in contact with what he thinks
    they're thinking about. He's the one who talks to me all the time. It's
    amazing. And I think that if--my feeling is that the people have seen
    him back there working, defending his positions, defending his record,
    defending his service for the district. If it's just a question of who
    can do more for the people in that district to build their economic
    future and to meet their needs, I don't think there's much question. I
    think he wins in a walk, but it's a tough race.

    Ross Perot and 1996 Presidential Campaign

        Mr. King. Our old friend Ross Perot's entrance into the race,
    endorsing some Republicans, some Democrats, independents and calling for
    basically a Republican victory.
        The President. Well, it's curious to me because if you look at what
    I've done as compared with what Ross Perot advocated, I disagree with
    him on GATT and on NAFTA, but so does the Republican congressional
    leadership. So both sides disagree with him on trade. So what else was
    his campaign about? It was about reducing the deficit, reducing
    regulation and the size of Government, and getting political reform,
    campaign finance reform, lobby reform, line-item veto. Okay.
        We reduced the deficit without any Republican votes. We reduced the
    size of Government without any Republican support. We've deregulated in
    banking and trucking. We've deregulated a lot of the Federal rules on
    welfare reform, giving 20 States the right to move people from welfare
    to work. We've done things that he said he was for.
        I supported and most Democrats supported, most Democrats supported,
    campaign finance reform, lobby reform, a bill to make Congress live
    under the same laws it imposes on private business. These are things we
    did. Their leadership opposed it. So what we are doing and where we
    stand and what we want to do in the future is much more consistent with
    what

    [[Page 2026]]

    Ross Perot said he wanted to do if he were President.
        Mr. King. Then what do you make of this?
        The President. I don't know. I'll leave that to you to make of it.
    All I can tell you is, we have really faithfully pursued the reform
    agenda that he and I shared in common when we both ran for President. So
    the truth is, he'd come a lot nearer getting what he said he wanted done
    in '92 in fact done in '95 if we kept the Democrats in the Congress who
    are committed to change.
        Mr. King. Do you expect him to run again?
        The President. I don't have any idea.
        Mr. King. Do you expect Democrats to oppose you?
        The President. I don't have any idea.
        Mr. King. Do you have a Republican favorite you'd like to run
    against?
        The President. No, I'm going to leave that up to them. I'll say
    this, sooner or later, we'll have a debate and a discussion in this
    country about what, in fact, has been done and what has not been done.
        Mr. King. And it will have to be one person.
        The President. We'll have to get over being mad and being negative
    and talk about what we're going to do to build this country. We cannot
    for long afford to give in to the blamers instead of the builders. I
    mean, this is a country--you look--we've got a lot of challenges we have
    to work through to get this country into the 21st century as the
    strongest country in the world, with the American dream alive and well.
        Right now, we are strongest militarily. We're strongest again
    economically, according to the annual vote of international economists,
    for the first time in 9 years. We're outselling all other auto
    companies, Americans are, for the first time in 15 years. We are moving
    in the right direction.
        At some point, people who tempt our anger and our frustration but
    promise to reverse the progress we have made and put us back in the
    economic trouble we were in just a couple of years ago, are going to
    have to be held accountable. That's what this election ought to be
    about. And if it is, the Democrats who represent hope, the future, and
    the progress that's been made in the last 21 months ought to have a
    chance. Why should we give up the progress of the last 21 months and not
    give me a chance to finish and go back to what failed us for 12 years?
        Mr. King. But can we also say, therefore, can I trace in what you
    said in the beginning that if you do run for reelection, you will debate
    your opponent or opponents?
        The President. Yes.
        Mr. King. There will be no backing off debates.
        The President. No, not once, but several times.

    [The stations took a commercial break.]

    President's Legal Defense Fund

        Mr. King. We're back with President Bill Clinton, touching a lot of
    bases. The legal defense fund, are there any second thoughts about that,
    or was it necessary or--do you have second thoughts?
        The President. No. I think with a strict limit on contributions,
    there's no possibility of any conflict of interest there. And, you know,
    I have the lowest net worth, I guess, of any person to be President in a
    very long time. And all these things are--like the Whitewater thing,
    it's--these things come up. If we're going to----
        Mr. King. They have been embarrassing, though.
        The President. If we're going to make Presidents a subject for the
    first time in history--this has never been done to anybody before--to
    things like special counsels looking into things that happened long
    before the President became President, that were fully aired in the
    Presidential campaign--I don't think Presidents should make money being
    President, but I don't think they should be bankrupt when they leave
    because of legal fees. Nor do I think that Presidents should expect
    lawyers to work for nothing.
        So, once again, we're in a situation here where--do you really want
    to say that unless you're fabulously wealthy you shouldn't be able to be
    President? You shouldn't be able to run for an office because you can't
    buy enough negative television ads to trash your opponent? I think what
    we did was appropriate, legal, proper, and restrained.

    Former President Ronald Reagan

        Mr. King. A couple of other things. Ronald Reagan's announcement,
    and I know you commented that you'd----
        The President. I did.
        Mr. King. ----spoken to him awhile back and that he, in the middle
    of a sentence, got angry

    [[Page 2027]]

    that he had forgotten what he had been talking about.
        The President. Yes, he just said once, he said, ``I forgot.'' He
    said, ``I lost my memory on that, and it really makes me mad.''
        Mr. King. Did you then think that this might have been Alzheimer's,
    a common thing to think in people over 80? Did you think it?
        The President. I didn't know. I don't know that I know the
    difference between the manifestations of Alzheimer's for someone who's
    80 and just not remembering things as well. But he and I have always had
    a very cordial personal relationship. When I was a Governor, I supported
    and worked with the White House when we got the first big welfare reform
    legislation through back in '88. And even though we've had our
    differences, I always liked the fact that he was positive about America,
    that he was an upbeat person, that he--at moments he was capable of
    going beyond partisanship, as he has since he's left office. You know,
    he supported NAFTA and the Brady bill and the crime bill with the
    assault weapons ban in it, because, I think, of the experience he had
    with Jim Brady and the terrible scars it left on everyone.
        So I just--I wanted to say that. I was probably in the most
    Democratic congressional district in America yesterday. And when I asked
    them, they all just applauded and they gave him a big cheer.
        Mr. King. Do you think it will help focus emphasis on Alzheimer's?
    Do you think he was right to do it, to make the announcement?
        The President. First of all, I think he was very right to do it. I
    think it was a brave thing to do. And he sat down and wrote the letter
    himself----
        Mr. King. I know.
        The President. ----in his own words. And it was vintage Ronald
    Reagan. I think it will help to focus attention on Alzheimer's. I
    personally appreciated it, because I lost both an uncle and an aunt to
    Alzheimer's. And so I think it's one more thing that the American people
    have to be appreciative to him about.

    [The stations took a commercial break.]

    Secretary of State Warren Christopher

        Mr. King. We're back with Bill Clinton. Our remaining moments, some
    other quick bases to cover--Senator Dole the other night said he likes
    Warren Christopher, thinks he's done a great job. Is Warren Christopher
    staying at State?
        The President. He's done a good job, and as far as I'm concerned,
    he's the Secretary of State.

    Press Secretary Dee Dee Myers

        Mr. King. Dee Dee Myers is sitting here, looks very strong, very
    active.
        The President. She looks pretty good, doesn't she?
        Mr. King. There was rumors that she was going to be leaving that
    post, and she seemed to have strengthened it. Is she here?
        The President. She's doing a good job.
        Mr. King. Will she be here through the next 2 years?
        The President. She hasn't told me yet.
        Mr. King. Do you want her to stay?
        The President. She looks pretty good.
        Mr. King. Yes, she does. Do you want her to stay?
        The President. She's doing a good job, and she's going to stay as
    long as we decide she's going to stay, she and I together.
        Mr. King. First time the whole night you've been a little----
        The President. I've been a little evasive on all personnel
    questions.
        Mr. King. You don't want to discuss personnel?
        The President. I think Presidents should always be slightly evasive
    on personnel questions unless there's some great policy issue involved.

    Heavyweight Boxing Champion

        Mr. King. George Foreman. Comment.
        The President. George Foreman I like, because I identify with him.
    He's not as young as he used to be, not as fast as he used to be, not as
    thin as he used to be. He's still got a terrific punch. I'd like to
    think that there are a lot of us who could identify with that.
        And he doesn't quit. You know what he said yesterday? He said he was
    really grateful to America for giving him the chance to fight. That's
    the way I feel. I'm grateful to America for giving me the chance to
    fight.
        Mr. King. So you felt an association with him. You're only a little
    older than he is.
        The President. Yes, I know.
        Mr. King. You have the same kind of midriff, and he eats like you,
    fast foods.

    [[Page 2028]]

        The President. He does. I don't really eat fast foods anymore.
    That's a big myth.
        Mr. King. Well, you don't?
        The President. No. It's part of Dee Dee's counseling to me.
    [Laughter] She won't let me do it--no, we don't do that much anymore.

    Midterm Elections

        Mr. King. We're under a minute. Virginia, Senate.
        The President. Senator Robb's doing well there.
        Mr. King. Cuomo in New York.
        The President. He's come back; he's been heroic.
        Mr. King. Senate in--governorship, Texas.
        The President. Well, I haven't been there, but Ann Richards is
    supported in her job by over 60 percent of the people. So if they
    support the work she's done for Texas, you would think they would renew
    her contract.
        Mr. King. Were you asked to go there at all?
        The President. No.
        Mr. King. And----
        The President. Oh, I was at the beginning. I was asked to go,
    actually, to El Paso, but we couldn't do it.
        Mr. King. We're out of time. Thanks.
        The President. Thank you. You've been great.
        Mr. King. Are you predicting victory in the Senate and the House?
    You will retain control of both?
        The President. I think we're moving in the right direction, and I
    think we'll have them both on Wednesday morning when we wake up, because
    I think the American people want to keep going forward, not going back.

    Note: The interview was recorded at 3:30 p.m. at the Columbia DuBrin
    Realty Advisors Building for broadcast at 9 p.m.