[Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: William J. Clinton (1994, Book I)]
[February 17, 1994]
[Pages 273-279]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]



Interview With Don Imus of WFAN Radio, New York City
February 17, 1994

    Mr. Imus. Here now, on the ``Imus in the Morning'' program, the 
President of the United States, Bill Clinton. Good morning, Mr. 
President.

Health Care Reform

    The President. Good morning, Don, how are you?
    Mr. Imus. Well, I'm not that great, because your wife was here in 
New York 2 or 3 months ago to do that ``Sesame Street,'' and it is 
broadcast from the same studio complex we are. So she sent down the 
Secret Service to get me. And of course, when they showed I didn't know 
what they were here for. It made me kind of nervous.
    But anyway, I was talking to her, and I told her that since I had 
last talked to you I had had major lung surgery, and I have health 
insurance. And out of my pocket, though, even with health insurance, it 
cost me $20,000. So I'm for any health care plan--[laughter]--including 
yours.
    The President. Well, that's good. I hope the surgery worked well. 
Your lungs seem to be in good order as nearly as I can tell. [Laughter]
    Mr. Imus. Well, I feel pretty good. She was astonished that it cost 
that much. I explained that I was in a private room and stuff like that. 
But still, there was a lot of expense. And I--just curious to me how 
ordinary people, the median wage in this country being around $19,000 a 
year, how they could pay for that stuff.
    The President. Well, it's really tough. She was in Maine last week 
and talking to a woman that broke her wrist and was charged $40 for 
sitting on a cot in a hospital in an emergency room for 30 minutes, 
charged for an Ace bandage she didn't use and things like that. There 
are a lot of problems in the health care system, mostly related to the 
way we finance it. The

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health care of this country--the delivery system, the doctors, the 
nurses, the medical research, all of that--it's very, very good. But the 
delivery system is messed up by the way it's financed. This is the only 
country in the world that has 1,500 separate health insurance companies 
writing thousands and thousands of different policies. You've got to 
read the fine print to figure out what's the copay, what's the 
deductible, how much cash do you have to put up if you have something 
like the operation you had. It's a really tough deal.
    Mr. Imus. Well, you know, one of the ways, Mr. President, you could 
settle all this is for you and the First Lady to take on Harry and 
Louise from those insurance company commercials in like a segment of 
``American Gladiators.'' [Laughter]
    The President. Yes, you know, I wouldn't mind that actually. The 
first I heard about them, I thought they were Thelma and Louise, you 
know. [Laughter] I tried to take them on a little bit yesterday in New 
Jersey. The problem is that they don't reflect real people, but they can 
scare real people because when we hear something about health care, we 
always want to calculate it, as we should, in terms of, well, how is 
this going to affect me and my family and our policy.
    But real people out there are in trouble. I mean, I was at a little 
delicatessen in Columbus, Ohio, the day before yesterday talking to the 
woman who ran it, and she insured her 20 full-time employees even though 
a lot of her competitors didn't. She told me the stories about what had 
happened to their premiums when she got sick, how much she resented the 
fact that she did it and others didn't. I mean, if you really go out 
there and talk to real people about how the system really works, it's 
very different than what these ads say. And the ads are designed to 
mislead people about our plan so that we can keep the same financing 
system we've got. That's why the health insurance industry's running 
them.
    But as a result of the way they do things, some people pay much more 
for insurance than others because they're older. Some people pay more 
just because they're in small businesses. Some people cannot get any 
insurance or can never change jobs because they've got a preexisting 
condition. No other country in the world does this.
    But one thing we do have more than anybody else in the world is 
clerical workers, in hospitals, in doctors' offices, insurance offices, 
keeping up with all these forms that are required so we can see who 
doesn't get what coverage and make sure you pay all that $20,000. I 
mean, that's the way the financing system works. That's what needs to be 
reworked.
    Mr. Imus. When you and the First Lady lobbied the Business Council, 
and they voted two-to-one against the plan, were you surprised about 
that or----
    The President. No, they've never--you know, mostly they've not been 
for any of this. I was surprised that we have as much big business 
support as we do. What I wanted them to do, although it's largely 
ideological, most of them are paying premiums which are too high now. I 
thought we might get them for the first time to go along with the 
requirement for universal coverage or guaranteed private health 
insurance, because every other country has it. That's what their 
competitors provide. And all their competitors have lower health costs 
than these guys do.
    But I was very disappointed that they didn't do it. Now, the Chamber 
of Commerce came out for universal coverage yesterday, which was 
encouraging. But the big business group I still think supports universal 
coverage. There were some other--they've got some members who don't 
support some parts of our plan. And the group that came to see me said 
that, ``Well, we really are not for this other plan. We think it's 
better strategy to say, `Well, we ought to start with that.' ''
    But the truth is, you know, I didn't expect them to be in the 
vanguard of health care reform. But a lot of these big companies 
actually are paying more than they should because of all the cost-
shifting. That's another big problem in our system. A lot of people who 
don't have health insurance ultimately get health care, but they get it 
when it's too late and too expensive. They show up at the emergency 
room, and then the hospitals have to pass those costs on to the people 
who do have insurance, which really runs the cost up of companies that 
have good health policies.

The Presidency

    Mr. Imus. A lot of these mainstream news friends of mine who appear 
frequently on this program, like Tim Russert and folks like that,

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they think that I hang out with you, you know, and like set policy. 
[Laughter]
    The President. Don't disabuse them, you know. Is Russert--is that 
mainstream? I don't know. [Laughter]
    Mr. Imus. I try to explain to them, I've talked to you five or six 
times on the phone, and I'm not one of those people who claims to have 
access that doesn't exist. However----
    The President. I've still got my Imus doll in here, though, in the 
White House.
    Mr. Imus. Oh, you do?
    The President. You bet I do. I watch that head bob up and down all 
the time. [Laughter]
    Mr. Imus. You know, by the way, thanks for the pictures you sent me. 
I was doing an interview with the Washington Post the day those arrived. 
And this woman begged me to give her one of them so she could put it in 
the paper. And I said I didn't think the President would be interested 
in doing that.
    But one of the things I tell people is that having talked to you 
four or five times during the campaign and now twice since you've been 
President, I said I thought that probably I had changed more in my 
approach in that, you know, you are the President, and I'm not going to 
ask you goofy questions. And my question to you is, do you think you've 
changed?
    The President. Oh, I think it changes you some. What you have to 
guard against is getting the bad changes with the good. I mean, I think 
anyone who assumes this office who really wants to make a difference 
here instead of just to occupy the White House changes. I think, you 
know, I am much more focused every day than I have ever been in my 
public life on the work at hand and what I can do. I think that the 
responsibilities are so great it requires much more concentration. And 
you just have to kind of filter out a whole lot of things that once 
might have occupied your time and attention.
    On the other hand, you have to guard against becoming more isolated, 
because it is so easy to get isolated here. I mean, you've got to--
because of the security concerns, the Secret Service is always here and 
you're always--you travel in an armored limousine and you travel on Air 
Force One and you're always--it's just easy to get isolated from the 
people. So what I have to do is to try to make sure that I'm growing in 
the job all the time and continuing to deepen my ability just to focus 
on the big issues that really affect the lives of the American people 
without getting isolated from them.
    Mr. Imus. Somebody said the White House is the crown jewel in our 
penal system. [Laughter]
    The President. Yes, that was one of my better lines, did you think?
    Mr. Imus. Oh, that was yours. Oh, okay.
    The President. Yes. I said I couldn't figure out whether it was 
America's most beautiful public housing or the crown jewel of the penal 
system. [Laughter]

President's Youth

    Mr. Imus. Of course, I guess I could ask you, the bed in that old El 
Camino wasn't large enough to play football on, so, Mr. President, what 
was that Astroturf for? [Laughter]
    The President. You're old enough to remember what it was like with a 
pickup truck, nothing but metal in the back, right?
    Mr. Imus. Absolutely.
    The President. If you wanted to put--that's the only car I had then. 
I carried my luggage back there. It wasn't for what everybody thought it 
was for when I made the comment, I'll tell you that. I'm guilty of a lot 
of things, but I didn't ever do that. [Laughter] But I don't think I 
should disclaim it, really, just leave it out there.
    Mr. Imus. I mean, it's like saying you didn't inhale, Mr. President. 
I mean, come on here. [Laughter] Anyway, by the way, congratulations on 
that Saudi----
    The President. No, it's just that I didn't inhale in the back of the 
pickup. [Laughter]

Aircraft Contract With Saudi Arabia

    Mr. Imus. Congratulations on the Saudi aircraft deal. Mickey 
Kantor's doing a terrific job, isn't he?
    The President. He is doing a great job. I mean, he's really been 
very, very good. You know, he's hammered out these major trade 
agreements, the NAFTA agreement and the GATT world trade round. And he's 
worked so hard to expand our trade operations. On this Saudi deal, we 
had three Cabinet members actually go to Saudi Arabia working on it: the 
Commerce Secretary, Ron Brown, whose major job it is to sell American 
products abroad, once Mickey Kantor gets us a fair framework; the 
Transportation Secretary, because it was airlines, Federico Pena; and 
the Secretary of State be-


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cause it affected our foreign policy. They all went through Saudi Arabia 
and made an effort to help sell it. And you know, this is going to have 
a positive impact on about 60,000 jobs, which is an amazing thing.

Japan-U.S. Trade

    Mr. Imus. And this may be a simple-minded trade question, Mr. 
President, but people like me wonder about this. How come we can't say 
to the Japanese, ``Look, you guys can't send your junk over here until 
you let us send our stuff over there, and that policy starts tomorrow''?
    The President. Well, you can do some of that. That's what we're 
trying to do with this telephone issue. I guess you saw the facts--when 
you mentioned Mickey, you must have seen him doing his interview on the 
cellular telephone----
    Mr. Imus. Yes, I did.
    The President. ----business, where he pointed out in the part of 
Japan where we have equal access, Motorola has 50 percent of the market. 
And in the Tokyo and Nagoya area, same products, where there's not equal 
access to take advantage of the whole system, the Japanese have 780,000 
or something units, and Motorola has 12,000, less than 2 percent of the 
market.
    So we've now concluded that case. We've established the facts, and 
we have to develop a response. But what you want to do is to do 
something that will succeed in opening their market without denying 
American consumers access to products they want to buy or without 
hurting American investments in Japan. We have increased exports to 
Japan dramatically, but exports from Japan to America have increased 
dramatically. And their markets are still the most closed of any 
advanced country in the world.
    So in the past, America for 10 years tried 30 different trade 
agreements, the main focus of which was to change the processes by which 
they dealt with, instead of to, you know, achieve specific concrete 
results. And nothing ever happened. I mean, the trade deficit just got 
bigger and bigger. So we're going to try to pursue a much more 
aggressive policy now which will actually open markets.
    And I might say there's a lot of people in Japan who agree with us. 
This is a problem for them, too, because as rich as that country is, the 
average Japanese pays almost 40 percent more for consumer products than 
the average American because their market's so closed.
    So it isn't good for them either. They simply cannot continue to 
pursue the policy that they pursued when they were a poor country 
growing rich. They're now a rich country, and they can't export to the 
rest of the world and keep their own markets closed. And I think they 
know that. And we're going to work hard and try some different things to 
push that market open. But there are a lot of people in Japan who agree 
with us.
    Mr. Imus. Of course, he was really aggressive, obviously, as you 
know, I mean, suggesting that they'd lied and broken that '88 agreement. 
I mean, he was pretty brutal there----
    The President. Well, they didn't do what they said they'd do in '88. 
And last summer they said that we would have a trade agreement which 
would deal with autos and electronics and a lot of other issues--
telecommunications--that would measure the results of our progress in 
qualitative and quantitative terms, which is a jargon phrase which means 
we'll see whether we're reducing the trade deficit or not. And they 
didn't want to do that here.
    So there's a big fight going on in Japan now. The permanent 
government agencies there that have dominated policy for years and 
years, for decades, the trade and finance agencies, think the system 
they've had has worked. It's given them low unemployment and high 
savings rates, big exports and no imports, and they want to keep it. 
There are a lot of other people that want Japan to become a fully modern 
state with fair and open trade. And I think in a way we're helping the 
cause of the reformers by being tougher than America has been in the 
past on this issue in trying to get these markets open for our people.

Delbert McClinton

    Mr. Imus. When the word got out around, particularly here in New 
York, yesterday that you were going to be on, all my friends at the 
networks called me and they said, ``Ask him this, and ask him that.'' 
And I'd tell them, I'd say, ``You ask him,'' because I'm not 
presumptuous enough to think I'm Ted Koppel or Tim Russert. I mean, our 
agenda here is to make you laugh, which we've done.
    The President. But are they presumptuous enough to think they're 
you, that's----

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    Mr. Imus. No, they're not. [Laughter] Let me try to get some 
information, and the next time you have a gig at the White House we want 
to get you to book Delbert McClinton, because he's great. [Laughter] Do 
you know who Delbert is?
    The President. Who is Delbert?
    Mr. Imus. Oh, he's great. Man, you'd love him. If you love Elvis, 
you'll love Delbert McClinton. Sings that Texas blues.
    The President. I like that Texas blues.
    Mr. Imus. Oh, you'd love him. I'm going to send you a CD. I'll send 
it to my new best friend, Mark Gearan. I'll send it to him. He can give 
it to you.
    The President.  Are you hard up for a best friend? [Laughter] If you 
looked at Mark Gearan, if you can just look at him, he never--I don't 
believe he ever saw a country and western singer, much less heard one.
    Mr. Imus. Well, maybe I'll send it to Paul Begala then.
    The President. He's got a 1950's haircut. [Laughter]

Whitewater Development Corp.

    Mr. Imus. I do have a math question, though. It's sort of like one 
of those, if Bill leaves L.A. traveling 55 miles an hour, and Bob leaves 
New York traveling 60 miles an hour, when will they each reach Sioux 
City, Iowa? So here's the question, Mr. President: You're the Governor 
of Arkansas making $35,000 a year, and Mrs. Clinton's over at the law 
firm making around $55,000. And out of what looks like a gross to me of 
around $90,000, how did you guys manage to lose $69,000 in that goofy 
Whitewater land deal? [Laughter]
    The President. Oh, because we lost it over a long period of time.
    Mr. Imus. Oh, okay.
    The President. Most of it, the loss, was when we paid the bank loans 
back with interest, and we never got any money on the interest. So it 
happened over a long period of time.
    Mr. Imus. Is that something that you think is going to--everybody I 
have on I ask this, and I've wanted to ask you. In your mind, is that 
something--I mean, are you guys sitting around there thinking this is 
going to turn into Watergate?
    The President. No.
    Mr. Imus. No.
    The President. No, it's an investment I made 15 years ago that lost 
money instead of made money, because the property market turned around 
at home. It's a simple, straightforward thing, and it'll be shown to be. 
I mean, I'm absolutely comfortable with that. I mean, I'm amazed by all 
the twists and turns of interpretation that's been given. But that's 
about what happened.
    Mr. Imus. Because I've had a bad run of luck here, Mr. President: I 
endorsed David Dinkins; I endorsed Jim Florio; I was supporting Barry 
Diller in his takeover for Paramount, so I don't need anything to happen 
to you now. [Laughter]
    The President. Well, there are a lot of folks that come after us on 
a regular basis. I wish they'd fight with us on the issues instead of 
what they do, but that's part of it. Apparently that's part of being 
President in the latter half of the 20th century in a highly competitive 
environment. All I know is I get up every day, show up for work, work as 
hard as I can, try to help people improve their lives, and that's what 
I'm going to keep doing. And the ones that want to keep attacking me, 
I'm going to let them do it and just do the very best I can with it. And 
I'll try to make your gamble good. I don't want you to be disappointed, 
but--[laughter]--keep in mind, sometimes if you make choices, sometimes 
you're going to lose. All your politicians can't win. It's like going to 
the horse races.
    Mr. Imus. Of course, you notice how I've turned this into how it's 
going to affect me as opposed to your Presidency and the future of this 
country and the free world. [Laughter]
    The President. That's probably, you know----
    Mr. Imus. Let me say this: I don't mean to be disrespectful, but 
that vacation, that model home, that looked like someplace where Tonya 
Harding's bodyguards were holed up--[laughter]--no wonder you guys 
couldn't sell them. [Laughter]
    The President. Well, you know, it was a little place where a lot of 
working people without much money were looking for a place to retire and 
own some property in a beautiful place. And by the way, north Arkansas 
is full of folks like that. They're good people, even if they're not 
rich. I know that now that you've hit the big time, it's not worthy of 
you, but if you--[laughter]--maybe if you could guarantee me a profit I 
could go build a house on a piece

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of land down there, and I could let you retire in Arkansas.
    Mr. Imus. Actually, the guy I've worked with for 22 years, Charles 
McCord, has a house right on the shore there of Bull Shoals Lake, right 
there in Lead Hill, Arkansas.
    The President. In Lead Hill, which is near Zinc.
    Charles McCord. Exactly, 10 miles from Zinc, yes, sir.
    The President. You've been there?
    Mr. McCord. I built a vacation home there, Mr. President.
    The President. Oh, there you are. It's beautiful, isn't it?
    Mr. McCord. It is one of the most gorgeous parts of this country, 
period, and absolutely, northeastern Arkansas, the Buffalo River 
country, all of that, absolutely.

Bosnia

    Mr. Imus. Mr. President, the United States--I just wanted to ask you 
briefly about Bosnia--the United States has always, in my mind, at 
least, set the agenda for NATO. But in the case of Bosnia, it seems that 
we are acquiescing to them. As the lone superpower in the world, aren't 
they really, bottom line, looking to us to do what we've always done?
    The President. Well, that's what we were able to do in getting the 
resolution through last summer, authorizing the use of air power if 
Sarajevo was strangled. And then we and the French and then eventually 
the Germans and the British and all the others, agreed after this last 
terrible incident in the market in Sarajevo to strengthen that 
resolution and say that there ought to be basically an artillery-free 
zone around Sarajevo, which is what we're in the business of 
implementing now.
    The difference is this--I know it's confusing--but basically the 
United Nations is on the ground in Bosnia. And the United Nations 
includes troops on the ground, includes troops from NATO countries. 
There are British troops on the ground; there are French troops on the 
ground; there are Canadian troops on the ground; there are Spanish 
troops on the ground; there are about to be some Dutch troops on the 
ground. A lot of these countries did not want NATO to use air power to 
protect Sarajevo or do anything else because they were afraid that their 
troops on the ground would be attacked and killed, and we didn't have 
any troops on the ground. And when I said I thought that the arms 
embargo ought to be lifted, a lot of those countries said, ``Well, you 
may be right, but we're afraid for our troops on the ground who are 
there fulfilling the U.N. mission trying to keep people alive and 
deliver food and medicine, and keep the roads open.'' So to be fair to 
them, they were in a different position.
    Now I think that the United States has finally succeeded in--and I 
told the allies at the NATO meeting in January we could not have an 
empty threat. So the Serbs now, I think, must know that if they don't 
comply, NATO will take action. And the United States has been pushing 
this for a long time. And I think we finally succeeded in bringing our 
allies around. I think a lot of them finally figured out that their 
troops on the ground were at greater risk by doing nothing than they 
were by taking action. But to be fair to the NATO allies, the United 
States has not put ground troops in Bosnia. I did not think we should. 
But because they had them there fulfilling the U.N. mandate, they were 
reluctant to have NATO bomb, because they were afraid of retaliation 
against their soldiers.
    Now I think, we've sent a clear message to the Serbs. And I think 
everybody will hold tight. And we've got a chance. We've got a chance to 
really not only protect Sarajevo but to get a peace agreement that is 
decent and fair. And that's what we're going to be working for.

President's Health

    Mr. Imus. A final question, Mr. President, your cholesterol is 
around 204, right?
    The President. No, no, it's down now, I think.
    Mr. Imus. Oh, it is?
    The President. Well, I don't know, I think it's--what was it? Is 
that what it was?
    Mr. Imus. Yes.
    The President. Yes, I lost 15 pounds, but my cholesterol is still 
too high.
    Mr. Imus. Yes, but the other day I read about the Clinton burger and 
that pastrami sandwich and that apple fritter the size of a baby's head. 
[Laughter]
    The President. Hey, hey, the apple fritter--I had one bite of apple 
fritter.
    Mr. Imus. Oh, okay. [Laughter]
    The President. That's right, I did get off my diet that day. But I 
was transported. I mean, I was out there in a place I felt at home in. I 
was in a little town in Ohio, you know, and I spoke to all those police 
officers, and I stopped

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at this little deli with this guy who had been a butcher's assistant 
when he was 13 years old and had finally saved enough money to open his 
own deli 3 years ago. And he built it with his hands, and he made this 
Clinton burger, And I thought, well, I'm going to eat it. He did it. And 
then I went to this restaurant in downtown Columbus and talked to those 
folks about health care. And I asked them what they thought I ought to 
have, and they said I ought to try the corned beef on pumpernickel. So 
that's what I did. They said that's what was good, so I tried it. Every 
now and then I lose my discipline. But I lost 15 pounds last year, and 
I'm going to try to lose 10 or 15 more this year. I like it better. I 
don't like to diet, but I like the way I feel when I'm a little bit 
lighter.
    Mr. Imus. Mr. President, you were terrific. It's always great to 
have you on. Thank you very much.
    The President. Well, thank you. Don't lose your sense of humor now 
just because I'm President.
    Mr. Imus. No, I won't.
    The President. Just give my adversaries equal time, that's all I 
ask. [Laughter]
    Mr. Imus. Thanks.
    The President. Have a good day.
    Mr. Imus. All right, the President, Bill Clinton, here on the ``Imus 
in the Morning'' program.
    The President. See you in Lead Hill.

Note: The telephone interview began at 8:03 a.m. The President spoke 
from the Oval Office at the White House.