[Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: William J. Clinton (1993, Book I)]
[July 20, 1993]
[Pages 1137-1148]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]



Interview With Larry King
July 20, 1993

The Presidency

    Mr. King. Good evening. Back in Louisville, about 3 days before the 
election, President Clinton said on this program, ``I'll come on every 6 
months.'' This is the 6-month anniversary. The timing is perfect. 
Tonight is 6 months in office for Clinton-Gore.
    Before we get into some--what we'll do is cover some current issues, 
talk about the budget, take calls. OK? But first, there's no way you 
could plan for this job, so what about it surprises you the most?
    The President. It's hard to say. I've learned a lot in the last 6 
months, and as much as I have followed this over 20 years, I think there 
are some things that you could not have anticipated. I think the thing 
that has surprised me most is how difficult it is, even for the 
President, if you're going to take on big changes and try to make big 
things happen, to really keep communicating exactly what you're about to 
the American people.
    Mr. King. And why is that hard?
    The President. I think because there's so much else in the 
atmosphere, first; and secondly, because when you do something like this 
big economic plan we're pushing, only the controversy is newsworthy at a 
time when there's so much else to cover. So I'm trying always to remind 
people, look, we've got as many spending cuts, or more, than tax 
increases; that the upper income people, people over $200,000, are 
paying 70 percent of the burden, and that the middle class is paying 
very little; the working poor are paying nothing. All the details I try 
to get into.
    But it's very difficult. And we found that the American people knew 
the most on February 17th, the night I announced the plan and went 
through it point by point, and that since then, the sort of yelling and 
rhetoric and screaming and back and forth, that I have lost the ability 
to make sure everybody knows the things I want them to know. And I feel 
very badly about that.
    Mr. King. Is that everybody's fault? I mean,

[[Page 1138]]

is it your fault? Media fault?
    The President. I think certainly so. I mean, I'm not trying to shift 
responsibility away from myself. But you asked me. That's been a real 
surprise to me because when I was a Governor in a smaller place where 
lots of people knew me, even if I were doing something that was quite 
unpopular with the media, say, and they were criticizing me, I could 
always get my side out there, my points. The essential facts would be 
out there. And that, to me, has been the most frustrating thing.
    And also when you're President, you have to make a lot of tough 
decisions. You just have to keep lining them up and making them, whether 
it's base closings or the very difficult problems in the Pacific 
Northwest with the forests or the whole litany of things that we've done 
here: the POW/MIA issue and how we're going to deal with Vietnam, the 
FBI, the gays in the military, you name it. And they keep coming in 
quick succession. You can't just say, ``Okay, stop the world. I'm going 
to just work on this. I'm not going to make these other decisions.'' You 
have to keep going.
    Mr. King. We were talking before we went on about Elvis Presley and 
isolation. And I was saying that I thought he had a more isolated life 
than you do. But this is an isolated life in here, isn't it?
    The President. It can be very isolating.
    Mr. King. Do you have to fight it?
    The President. I fight it all the time. And it can be isolating for 
two reasons. One is there is so much to do that you have to be very 
disciplined about your time. And I think the more I've been in this 
office, the more conscious I've become of it and, I think, the more 
disciplined I've become about my time. But discipline means deciding 
things you won't do, people you won't see, calls you won't make.
    The second problem is, frankly, the security problem. The----
    Mr. King. How so?
    The President. Well, I think the Secret Service do a very, very good 
job. But if your job is to keep the President from being harmed in a 
world full of people who may have some reason to do it, may have the 
means to do it, obviously the best thing would be if you put him in a 
bulletproof room and walked out, if you see what I mean.
    Mr. King. You couldn't stand that.
    The President. No, I couldn't stand that. So they do a terrific job. 
But we've worked out our accommodations so that I can at least run every 
day. I run different routes, and we do different things. And I try to 
get out and see the people when I can.
    Mr. King. Is it hard to understand their job for you?
    The President. It's much easier now. I really respect them; they've 
got a very tough job. And I make it harder because I'm a real people 
person, you know. I like to be out there. But I think it's an important 
job. But if you don't spend some time with just ordinary people who tell 
you what they think, hey, you almost forget how to hear and how to 
listen and how to speak and the way that most people live.
    Mr. King. By the way, have you seen ``In the Line of Fire''?
    The President. Yes, I watched it last night.
    Mr. King. What did you think?
    The President. I thought Eastwood was terrific. I thought he was 
good in ``Unforgiven.'' I think he's good in this. I think he's making 
the best movies he's ever made.
    Mr. King. Did you like the movie?
    The President. I liked the movie very much.
    Mr. King. Was it realistic?
    The President. I think it was as realistic as it could be and still 
be a real rip-roaring thriller, you know. [Laughter]

Homosexuals in the Military

    Mr. King. We helped their business a lot. Let's touch some other 
bases. Okay. First, today Secretary of Defense Aspin appears with what 
looked like the entire military in the world before Senator Nunn's 
committee. And Senator Nunn finishes by saying he still wants to go to 
Congress, but he's inclined to support it. Is this a plus for you today?
    The President. I think it is a plus. The Joint Chiefs came a long 
way on this policy from where they were back in January when we talked.
    Mr. King. When they were almost totally against it, period.
    The President. Completely against changing it at all; grudgingly 
said, ``Well, we'll stop asking,'' and none of the things that were in 
this policy except for that. And I commend them. They really tried hard 
to come to grips with this. And they know that there are and always have 
been homosexuals in the service who served with real distinction. They 
and the Secretary

[[Page 1139]]

of Defense deserve a lot of credit. But also, frankly, the people who 
argued for an even broader policy deserve a lot of credit: the Campaign 
for Military Service, Congressman Studds, Congressman Frank. They worked 
hard to try to come to grips with this. I don't think anyone was fully 
satisfied with the result, but I believe it's the best we can do right 
now.
    Mr. King. Were you in a no-win?
    The President. Well, I don't know. I don't view it that way. It 
depends on what the standard is. I was in a no-win if the only way I win 
is to do exactly what I think is right and----
    Mr. King. Which would have been, sign them and let them in, right?
    The President. Yes. But I think it's very important when you hear 
the criticism of it from the left, if you will. What I said was that I 
thought that status should be the judge--should not be the judge. It 
ought to be conduct, not your orientation. That's what the policy is 
now. I further said that I thought a person ought to be able to say, 
``I'm gay.'' And as long as they didn't do anything that violated the 
rules, they should be able to stay.
    Mr. King. That's now true.
    The President. That's only true in a restricted way. Now if you say 
it, it creates a presumption that you're going to do something wrong 
while you're in the military, but you are given the opportunity to 
present evidence that you won't, to convince, in effect, your commander 
that you will observe the rules. But I never promised to change the 
rules of conduct. That's in the Uniform Code of Military Justice. That's 
the way it is.
    Now, to be fair to the Joint Chiefs, they agreed to go further on 
matters of privacy and association than I ever discussed in the 
campaign. So this provides dramatically increased protection and a range 
of privacy for present and future soldiers who happen to be homosexuals 
but happen to be good military people.
    Mr. King. So in other words, you filled your promise.
    The President. I did, except for the fact that we were not able to 
do precisely what I wanted, which was to give people the freedom to 
acknowledge their sexual orientation as long as they were following the 
rules of conduct. Today if you do that, it can get you in trouble, but 
you have the option to convince your commander that you really are 
following the rules. So I don't think it goes quite as far as I wanted 
on statements. On the other hand, it goes quite a bit further to protect 
private conduct on the rules of investigation than I anticipated.
    Mr. King. What do you make of Senator Nunn in all of this?
    The President. I think first of all, he doesn't agree with my 
position, but I think he's worked hard, too, to try to come to grips 
with the reality of this, to open his mind and heart to the arguments on 
both sides. And I think he feels a special stewardship for the military. 
He's been chairman of the Armed Services Committee for a long time. He 
wants to make sure that if this is going to be the policy and he's going 
to support it, that it is legally defensible. And I think he's doing 
what he thinks is his job.
    Mr. King. Do you think it will pass in the Senate?
    The President. I do. I think if I had done what I wanted to do, the 
Senate and the House would have reversed it.

Reaction to Criticism

    Mr. King. How do you take--before we take a break, and then we're 
going to get to the economy--bashing? You know, the heat that a 
President takes, and you've been taking a lot of it. How do you deal 
with that?
    The President. Well, it's all part of it.
    Mr. King. It rolls off you?
    The President. Most of it rolls off of me; not all of it. If I think 
something is particularly unfair--the only thing that really bothers me, 
if you want to know the truth, is when I think that the bashing is in 
some area that prevents the American people from focusing on what we're 
doing about the things they care about that are most important, or if it 
undermines my ability to get things done.
    The criticism is a part of the job, and, frankly--you know Benjamin 
Franklin said a long time ago, ``Our critics can be our friends, for 
they show us our faults.'' Sometimes our critics show us our faults, and 
I try to listen and learn from my critics. But if I think they're 
diverting the attention of the American people from the real issues or 
the whole thing is undermining my ability to do what I was elected to 
do, that bothers me. But just to be criticized, shoot, that's part of 
it.

[At this point, the stations took a commercial break.]

[[Page 1140]]

Midwest Disaster Assistance

    Mr. King. We're back with President Clinton. A couple of other 
bases, then the economy. Where do you get your money for the floods? 
Where does that come from?
    The President. It comes from emergency appropriations. That is, we 
just add it to our spending this year. That's the way we've 
traditionally handled emergencies in America. And this year, thankfully, 
our deficit is well down because the interest rates have come down so 
much that we expect a big drop in the deficit over and above what we 
thought it would be.
    Mr. King. So it's going to be $2.5 billion almost in some States----
    The President. Well, we have upped our request to almost $3 billion 
now, and it may have to be revised upward again. Keep in mind, we can't 
hold harmless everybody from every loss, but there are programs to help 
businesses, farms, communities, and individuals who are out of work and 
who have no means of support.
    Mr. King. Can you waive the State matching funds?
    The President. I can do it. I can waive it, or we can write it down 
some.
    Mr. King. What are you going to do?
    The President. It depends on what the facts of each State are, how 
much problem they've got, how much of a burden it would be.
    Mr. King. It'll be State by State?
    The President. Yes, we'll have to look at it on a State-by-State 
basis, I think. I think that's the only fair way to do it.

FBI Director

    Mr. King. Was it hard to fire Mr. Sessions?
    The President. It was not hard, but it was sad for me. I admire the 
FBI greatly. I had a lot of contact with former FBI officers, had 
several of them in my administration. My criminal justice adviser was 
once the number two man in the FBI. My chief of staff for some time was 
a retired FBI agent. I love the FBI, and I hated to be the first 
President ever to have to fire a Director. But he said that that's the 
way he wanted it. He refused to resign, and I felt I had no choice.
    I do think that Louis Freeh, the Federal judge whom I appointed 
today, will be a sterling FBI Director.
    Mr. King. The word is, this guy, where's he been? This guy is, like, 
flawless.
    The President. Well, he's an amazing man. I mean, he grew up in a 
working-class family in Jersey City. He married a wonderful girl from 
Pittsburgh, whose dad was a steel worker. He worked his way through law 
school. He's my kind of guy, you know, just from the heartland.
    Mr. King. That ``flawless'' is the quote from the guy who did the 
investigation.
    The President. Absolutely. Well, then he was a great FBI agent, and 
then he was a prosecutor. He did the Pizza Connection case which was 
then the biggest heroin ring ever broken in the United States. He 
investigated a seafront corruption and brought indictments against 125 
people. And then that awful mail bombing--two murders in the South, the 
Federal judge, the civil rights leader--he broke that case when people 
thought it could never be broken, and then he prosecuted it himself. He 
has really been an amazing success, and as you know, President Bush made 
him a Federal judge. And I think it's really a testimony to his 
character that he was willing to leave a lifetime job to be Director of 
the FBI, because he knew the Agency needed him.
    Mr. King. He's also very big in the area of civil rights, is he not?
    The President. That's right. That was a big thing with me. I wanted 
somebody who was tough on crime, but who knew the FBI had to bring in 
more women and minorities. They've been behind on that. And they're 
moving, and I want to give Judge Sessions credit for that. He did a good 
job on that, trying to open the Bureau, and Judge Freeh said he'd 
continue it.

Supreme Court Nominee

    Mr. King. Do you expect Judge Ginsburg to be approved easily?
    The President. Yes. I'm very proud of her, and she did real well 
today, I think. She's an extraordinary woman, as a real pioneer in 
women's rights, but also, I think, has been a judge in the best sense. 
She's very hard to categorize as liberal or conservative, but she'll 
take a tough decision when she thinks it's right.
    Mr. King. On your key issue, though, which you said in the campaign, 
of freedom of choice, you think she'll come through?
    The President. Yes. Well, she's got a real record of statement 
there. I didn't give her any kind of litmus test in the interview; I 
didn't think it was right.
    Mr. King. You didn't?

[[Page 1141]]

    The President. No. But I was familiar enough with her rulings and 
her speeches and her statements to know how she felt about that issue.

Surgeon General Nominee

    Mr. King. And Dr. Elders--standing with her?
    The President. Absolutely.
    Mr. King. Were you at all dismayed by some of the things she said, 
``enemy of the fetus'' and----
    The President. Well, she's a very passionate woman. But I think you 
have to understand where she came from. I mean, Joycelyn Elders grew up 
as one of seven children in a cotton field in South Arkansas. She came 
from nowhere, economically anyway. Her brothers and sisters worked hard 
to help her get through medical school. She married a man who later 
became the most successful high school basketball coach in our State, 
very much a beloved man. And she was a doctor, a professor in the 
medical school when I finally, after three times, talked her into 
becoming the health department director.
    And she said, ``What do you want me to do?'' I said, ``I want you to 
fight teen pregnancy, I want you to fight AIDS, I want you to do 
something about environmental health, and I want us to get infant 
mortality down.'' And she found that her passion, in effect, drove her. 
I mean, she's a very passionate woman. And sometimes she says things in 
stark and blunt terms that make people draw up. But I think it's fair to 
say that in our State, which is a pretty old-fashioned, conservative 
place, she was very popular because people believed she was fighting for 
children, she was fighting to reduce infant mortality, she was fighting 
to reduce teen pregnancy. She was not pro-abortion. And, as a matter of 
fact, in many years I was Governor, the number of abortions performed 
dropped over the previous years.
    Mr. King. So you're not--are you surprised that the far right has 
kind of taken off on her?
    The President. No, because she is a lightning rod. They sort of took 
off on her in Arkansas for a while. But in the end she prevailed because 
people believed she cared about people. She was trying to save these 
kids from having babies. She was trying to reduce the infant mortality 
rate. She was trying to force people to do things--to change their 
behavior so AIDS wouldn't be communicated.
    Mr. King. Will she prevail here, too? Will she be confirmed?
    The President. I think she's an extraordinary woman. I'll be very 
surprised if she's not confirmed.

Representative Dan Rostenkowski

    Mr. King. Dan Rostenkowski gets into trouble on the eve of maybe the 
most important time for him in your administration, because he's the 
spear carrier for the House side for the economic plan. How do you feel 
about that? What happens if he is indicted? That's a fair question 
because there's the possibility he could be indicted.
    The President. Well, first, about that, of course, I can't comment. 
I'm not involved, and I shouldn't be, and I can't comment. I can only 
tell you that I've worked very closely with him and with Senator 
Moynihan. And he was here today continuing to work. I think, like every 
other American, he should be given the presumption of innocence.
    Mr. King. But what happens if this----
    The President. But all I can tell you is his backbone has been a 
mile wide and awful stiff in this whole thing. He's been a major force 
in pushing for changes that will finally get this deficit under control 
and help us to turn our economy around. And I'm going to keep working 
with him as long as he's here.
    Mr. King. Have you asked him about this incident at the post office?
    The President. No.
    Mr. King. If something were to happen, do you have another point man 
in mind? I mean, will this hurt the chances of a compromise if 
Rostenkowski's stature is limited?
    The President. Well, I don't even know how to comment on that. All I 
can tell you is that if he keeps working at it like he has, he's going 
to make a positive difference.
    Mr. King. We'll be right back with President Clinton.

[The stations took a commercial break.]

    Mr. King. Our guest is President Clinton. We're in the Library. 
We're ready to go to your phone calls. We ask that you get right to the 
point so we can reach as many people as possible.
    Orlando, Florida, hello.

[[Page 1142]]

Defense Base Closings

[A participant asked why the Orlando Training Center was selected for 
closure.]

    The President. I understand. Let me say, first of all, I think it is 
a good training center. For all of our listeners, the Orlando Training 
Center in Florida was one of the bases recommended by the Joint Chiefs 
of Staff and by the Secretary of Defense for the base closing, and the 
Commission voted to do that, to close the Orlando Center.
    One of the biggest problems when you close a big military base is 
that many military bases have people retired around them who used to be 
in the military who use the medical facilities, and therefore, in the 
aftermath, that's often one of the toughest issues.
    Let me answer those two things separately, if I might. First of all, 
I can't answer why the Orlando Training Center was picked by the Joint 
Chiefs. That process began before I became President. They sent the 
recommendation to the Secretary of Defense, who sent it to the Base 
Closing Commission. They thought that it should be closed, and they 
approved it. They sent the whole list to me, and I either had to sign on 
or off. And I concluded that I had no basis to reject the whole package, 
so I approved it, and it went to the Congress.
    Now, let me make just one important point about that. It's very 
tough when you close these bases. I know it. But we have taken the 
military down from about 2.5 million people, going down toward 1.6, then 
1.5, then 1.4. You can't reduce the military by 40 percent and only 
reduce the base structure by nine. Most of the bases that are 
recommended for closure are in Europe, some in the United States. But we 
have to reduce the base structure because otherwise we won't have enough 
money to train the personnel and to keep developing the smart weapons 
and the important technology that keep our people the best fighting 
force in the world and keep them safe.
    Now secondly, let me just say on the health issue, when the First 
Lady agreed to take up the health issue and her task force began to 
work, one of the things I asked her to do is to look into health care 
for military retirees around military bases and look into those 
facilities. That is one of the things that that task force has done. 
They are looking at those facilities, asking: Can they be open, can they 
be reopened, should they be reopened, should they be military 
facilities, should they be available for military and civilian 
personnel, what's going to happen in terms of the availability of health 
care? So that's something that the commission is looking on, and I 
expect that I'll get some recommendations on that that we'll know about 
pretty soon when we announce the health care plan.
    Mr. King. To St. Louis, Missouri, with President Clinton. Hello.

National Lottery

[A participant asked if the President had considered a national lottery 
to reduce the deficit.]

    Mr. King. It's been proposed for years.
    The President. Yes. Let me say, it has been proposed, a national 
lottery to reduce the deficit. And every time I have seen anybody talk 
about it, the conclusion has been that we probably shouldn't do it for 
two reasons. Number one, it would probably not raise an enormous amount 
of money. And number two, it might dramatically eat into the proceeds 
that are now going to the States who have lotteries. Most States have 
lotteries now, and that money generally goes to the education of our 
children or, in the case of Pennsylvania, the care of elderly citizens. 
And the Federal Government, I think, would get a lot of opposition from 
the States if it appeared that we were going to take away their efforts 
to educate people to pay down the debt.
    I have to say, finally, I personally have always had some 
reservation about the lotteries because, disproportionately, the people 
who play them tend to be on the lower income scale. But even if you put 
that to the side, for the other two reasons I think it is probably not a 
very good idea.
    Mr. King. It is voluntary taxation.
    The President. It is absolutely voluntary. And that's the best 
argument for it. The best argument for it is it's absolutely voluntary. 
And if it raised $1 billion, it's $1 billion we wouldn't have otherwise. 
So there are some arguments for it. But the two I mention are the 
reasons I think that it's never been adopted.

Economic Program

    Mr. King. We have to take a break, but quickly, why did you have to 
change your mind on the tax rates for middle income?
    The President. Because after the election was

[[Page 1143]]

over, the government of the previous administration revised upward the 
deficit by, oh, about $50 billion a year in each of the next 3 years.
    Mr. King. So you had no idea of that when you were running?
    The President. No, I didn't know it would be revised upward. So the 
decision I had to make was, well, are you going to live with a bigger 
deficit and less deficit reduction, or should you ask the middle class 
to pay a little?
    I also, frankly, did something else I didn't like. I revised upward 
the tax burden on the wealthiest Americans, and I think there's a limit 
beyond which you don't want to go on them either.
    Mr. King. We're going to break. We'll pick up on that.

[The stations took a commercial break.]

    Mr. King. We're back in the Library with President Clinton, and 
before we take our next call we want to pick up where we left off on, 
because he's taken a lot of shots on this, and it would be interesting 
to hear it in this setting, the other side.
    The President. I just want to say that when I became President and 
the deficit had been estimated upward since the election quite a bit, 
over $125, $130 billion, I decided that we were going to have to cut 
more spending and raise more revenues than I had thought to get the 
deficit down to a point that it was manageable and to keep long-term 
interest rates coming down.
    I think that it's very important to hammer home that there's a real 
connection between an effort to reduce the deficit and getting these 
long-term interest rates down. Before the election, basically you had 
short-term interest rates brought way down by the Federal Reserve Board 
but a big gap between them and the long-term rates. And that's what 
determines mortgage rates, business loans, and a lot of other things. So 
we decided that it would be worth it to really take a tough stand to 
raise some more money, most of it from upper-income people but a modest 
amount from middle-class people, and cut more spending.
    And let me show you what the difference is. If you look at this 
chart here, if I had just stayed with the budget that I found when I 
took office, that is, the one adopted in the last year of President 
Bush's term, here's what happens to the deficit.
    Mr. King. That's the inherited deficit?
    The President. This is the inherited deficit. With our plan, here's 
what happens to it over 5 years. Now, what you see down here is the real 
hitch--we can come back to this later--and that is that with all of our 
cuts and with the revenue increases, health care is still going up at 9 
percent a year. Until we bring health care costs in line with inflation, 
we can't go down to zero. When we do, we can get down to zero and 
balance this budget. That's why health care reform is so important.
    But look at the difference here. Now, let me just show you one other 
thing. Even though I did decide to ask for a modest tax increase on the 
middle class, let me just say exactly what this is.
    Here is a deficit reduction plan. For every $10, $5 comes in 
spending cuts, $4 comes from people with incomes above $100,000; that's 
the top 6 percent. Of this $4, seven-eighths of that comes from people 
with incomes above $200,000. And then $1, 1 in 10, comes from people 
with incomes between $30,000 and $100,000. Families with incomes below 
$30,000 are held harmless.
    So I think it is a fair and balanced package. Now, this portion, the 
portion the middle class pays, if anything near what the Senate bill 
does passes, will be about $50 a year for a family of four with an 
income of, let's say, between $40,000 and $50,000 a year, or about a 
buck a week. And all this money--all this money goes into a trust fund 
for 5 years to pay down the deficit. It has to be used for that. And if 
we miss our targets of paying down the deficit, that is, if we miss my 
line back here any year, I have to come back in and give new cuts, new 
ways to meet the deficit reduction.
    Now, what does this mean for the average American? It means that, as 
we have made progress on this, we've got the lowest interest rates in 20 
years. So millions of people are refinancing their homes, refinancing 
their business loans. They're going to take out lower college loans, car 
loans, consumer loans. Millions of Americans will save far more in 
interest rates than they will pay in this modest tax package, even upper 
income people.
    Let me just make a couple more points. Ninety-four percent of the 
small businesses in this country will pay no income tax increase and 
will have the opportunity to get a tax cut if they simply invest more 
money back in their

[[Page 1144]]

business and create jobs, because we more than double the expensing 
provision for small business.
    One final thing that's important. I just got back from this G-7 
meeting, the meeting of the world's great industrial powers. For 10 
years, at every meeting the United States didn't have much influence 
because we were attacked over having such a big deficit and being 
greedy, taking money from all around the world to pay for it. This year, 
for the first time in a decade, we were complimented, not criticized, 
and that's why--the progress of this economic plan is why at this 
meeting we were able to get an agreement to lower tariffs on our 
manufactured products. It means hundreds of thousands of jobs for 
Americans if we can get all the countries in the world to agree to 
change the trade agreement, like the big countries have. And we've got a 
new trade deal with Japan where the Japanese for the first time agreed 
to dramatically reduce the trade deficit.

Economic Summit

    Mr. King. By the way, did you expect that going there?
    The President. No, but I hoped for it. I had an instinct that both 
those things could happen. Everybody said nothing is going to happen at 
this meeting because all of these countries are in terrible economic 
shape, all their leaders are unpopular. Well, they are. We've got a 
global economic crisis, and when people can't make a living, when 
they're insecure, they're worried about losing their health care, their 
benefits, the ability to raise and educate their children, leaders 
aren't going to be popular.
    But what happened was, there was a sense that we owed it to the 
people we represent to do something, to try to move this economy and 
create jobs and get some things going. And that spirit sort of overtook 
the meeting. I called several of them before we met, and I said, 
``Everybody says we're not going to do anything, but why is that? Why 
don't we go and do something? We're actors; we want to get something 
done.'' And I was very pleased with it.
    Mr. King. Los Angeles, as we go back to calls for President Clinton. 
Hello.

Economic Program

[A participant asked about tax increases.]

    The President. Well, the deficit has dropped this year about $25 
billion or so below where it was estimated to be when I took office 
because interest rates have dropped. Therefore, what we have to pay on 
the accumulated debt of the country has gone down. The only reason 
interest rates have dropped is because we've got a serious attempt to 
reduce the deficit.
    And, again, let me just reiterate what the facts are: Seventy 
percent of the new taxes will be paid by people who make incomes above 
$200,000. No income tax increases will be paid by people who have 
adjusted gross incomes--individuals below $140,000, couples below 
$180,000. There will be no tax increase at all for people with incomes 
below $30,000. And this modest fuel tax will amount to about $50 a year 
for families with incomes of about $50,000. Now, I think that is a very 
modest price to pay, especially when we have spending cuts that are 
equal to--in fact, they'll be slightly greater than, I believe, the tax 
increase.
    Q. What kind of fuel are you going to tax? Which are we going to go 
with, the House or Senate, do you think?
    The President. I think something closer to the Senate version. They 
haven't been finally settled on but----
    Mr. King. Gas tax?
    The President. Closer to that. There's less opposition to it.
    Mr. King. Copenhagen, Denmark. Hello.

Bosnia

[A participant asked about U.S. troop participation in peacekeeping 
efforts.]

    The President. Well, let me remind you, sir, that we have had 
several thousand troops in Somalia. We have contributed hundreds of 
millions of dollars in humanitarian aid to the former Yugoslavia. We 
have done airdrops of supplies. We have always been committed to use our 
air power to protect your troops and any other troops. We have not 
wanted to get the Untied States involved in the conflict there unless 
there was a settlement. I have always said that we would send 
appropriate military personnel to be part of a United Nations 
enforcement of the settlement.
    Let me also say that the closest we ever were to settling that was 
when the Serbs and the Croats thought that the Europeans were going to 
go along with my proposal to lift the arms embargo and to make available 
standby air power to enforce no use of the Serbian artillery

[[Page 1145]]

against the Muslim, the Bosnian government there while the arms embargo 
was being lifted. When it became obvious that I could not prevail in the 
United Nations because of the opposition of some of the European 
nations, that's when things began to deteriorate again instead of move 
toward peace.
    So I had a policy. I'm disappointed that it was rejected by some of 
the European countries. I'm grateful that the Germans and some others 
supported it. But we are prepared to do our part to try to resolve this. 
We are working weekly on it. I feel terrible about it. But I do not 
believe the United States needs to send a lot of troops there which 
might get involved in a civil war on the ground when we had a plan--
which would have led, I'm convinced, to a settlement--which was not 
accepted. If we get a settlement, as we might now under other 
conditions, we are prepared to do our part through the U.N. to help to 
enforce it.
    Mr. King. We'll be back with President Clinton.

[The stations took a commercial break.]

    Mr. King. This is funny, folks, what happens behind the scenes, so 
we'll make it public for you. We had arranged with President Clinton's 
staff that we would finish at 10 p.m. Eastern time, one hour, and the 
staff had arranged it with our producers. And then President Clinton 
just said to me, ``Could we go a little longer?'' And I said, ``Sure, if 
you want to go a little longer, we can go another half hour.'' And he 
said he'd be happy to.
    So we didn't do it, and I just want the staff to know that we didn't 
do it. If you would like to do it, we would be happy to accommodate you.
    The President. You offered us the opportunity this afternoon and I 
think at that time we didn't know whether we could or not. But I'd like 
to do it.
    Mr. King. You're feeling refreshed?
    The President. Yes, and I like answering the questions. I think 
that's important.
    Mr. King. By the way, before we take our next call, he did give 
credit to Mr. Eastwood. We did add on the break that he also wanted to 
give credit to John Malkovich in ``In the Line of Fire.''
    The President. He's a great villain, isn't he? I mean, he was 
fabulous.
    Mr. King. I haven't seen it yet, but they tell me it's unbelievable.
    The President. Unbelievable. Rene Russo was good, too, and I'd only 
seen her in that Mel Gibson movie.
    Mr. King. You are a movie buff, right?
    The President. I love the movies. I love the movies.
    Mr. King. What's it like when you order them here in the White 
House?
    The President. Well, you know, they send in movies on a regular 
basis, so I get to see a lot of movies here. Normally, what we do is on 
Friday night--I normally work pretty late on Friday night, till 7, 7:30 
p.m. Last Friday I worked till 8:30 p.m. And then we gather up whoever 
is still working late in the White House, and Hillary and I and, when 
Chelsea's here, Chelsea would come down and watch the movie. We like 
that.

Economic Program

    Mr. King. We're ready to go back to more phone calls for President 
Clinton. Again, when you come on the line, please make the question or 
comment right to the point. And before we take our next call, I also 
want to give him a chance to expound on the lady who did call. I think 
he looked a little--when the lady who said----
    The President. She said, well, if the deficit is down, why do you 
need to raise any taxes. Keep in mind, we went from a $1 to a $4 
trillion national debt--that's the annual deficits added up--in only 12 
years, from 1980 to 1992. And we need to get that deficit down to zero 
as quickly as we can without collapsing the economy. You can't do it 
overnight, but we have to do it over a period of years.
    And as we do it, that's less money we have to spend on interest on 
the debt and more money we can invest in creating jobs, business 
incentives, and education and training and new technologies, and 
building roads and bridges and airports and things that make a country 
rich and competitive in this world. So even though we're getting a break 
on the deficit, we're getting a break on the deficit because the 
financial markets are responding to our efforts to bring the deficit 
down. And so we can't back up. We don't want to overdo it because that 
will slow the economy down, if you take too much money out at one time. 
But if we do it too little, then the interest rates will go up and we'll 
be in trouble on that score again.

[[Page 1146]]

    Mr. King. Montreal, Quebec, Canada. Hello.

Homosexuals in the Military

[A participant asked why the President did not act on the issue of 
homosexuals in the military the same way President Truman had concerning 
desegregation of the military.]

    The President. Well, first of all, let's talk about what I did do, 
and then I'll tell you why the argument you made is not analogous.
    What I did do was to give instructions to the Secretary of Defense 
to promulgate a policy which permits gays to serve for the first time 
and judges them like other service men and women on their conduct, not 
their sexual orientation. That is a big change. They're not going to be 
asked about their sexual orientation. Their privacy, including their 
rights of association, are going to be protected. That is, if they are 
seen going into a gay bar, that will not lead to an investigation of 
their sexual orientation. The laws against sexual misconduct will be 
enforced clearly and unambiguously in an even-handed way against 
heterosexuals and homosexuals. And if a gay person says that he or she 
is homosexual, while that can create a presumption that they are doing 
something that is prohibited and lead to their separation from service, 
they will be given an explicit opportunity to argue that they are 
honoring the code of conduct. Now that is a big change.
    Now, how is that different from the situation with President Truman? 
The real thing you ought to ask is how long did it take before African-
Americans, in this case, were treated fully equally in the service? It 
didn't just happen snap with Truman's order. It didn't happen after 
Truman's order, and it developed a long time before Truman's order. 
There was an explicit open involvement of the military culture with 
blacks in a segregated way for a very long time before this order was 
issued.
    The same thing happened with women. One of the things that's 
achieved almost no notice is that during my administration the Pentagon 
has voted to dramatically expand the role of women in the military 
services, make available far more roles for them than were available 
before. But it didn't happen overnight. It happened over a period of 
years as the military culture adapted to it.
    Now, if I had done what you suggest, if I had just said that gays 
could serve and whatever they do in private is their own business--which 
I never committed to do in the campaign--I'll tell you exactly what 
would have happened. Congress would have overturned it immediately and 
done it on the defense bill and in ways that would have been difficult, 
if not impossible, for me to veto.
    So the situations simply aren't analogous. Congress has no intention 
of overturning President Truman's position, and it's something that had 
built up over a long period of time, not something that just entered the 
public debate, in effect, about a year ago.
    Mr. King. St. Thomas, the Virgin Islands. Hello.

Puerto Rico and the District of Columbia

[A participant asked about voting rights for residents of Puerto Rico.]

    The President. Well, it would take a legal change. I'm embarrassed 
to tell you I don't know if it would take a change in the Constitution. 
I'd like to invite you to write me about it, and I'll commit to you I'll 
look into it. I know that in the case of Puerto Rico, they did have a 
Presidential primary, which I was very active in. And the people there 
were very good to me, and I'm grateful for that.
    I have strongly supported, in the case of Puerto Rico, self-
determination. That is, if they have a referendum there and they vote to 
continue their commonwealth status or to become independent or to become 
a State, whatever they decide I will support.
    Mr. King. You also support statehood for Washington, DC?
    The President. I do. And I didn't, frankly, until about a year and a 
half ago when a number of people, including Jesse Jackson, who is one of 
the shadow Senators for DC, pointed out to me that this community, which 
was once a Federal preserve entirely, now has more people than 5 States, 
pays more taxes than 10, and sent more soldiers into harm's way in the 
Persian Gulf than 20. So I think there are ways you can carve out a 
Federal enclave here that's still separate and apart and let the rest of 
those folks become a State. There are some complicated issues there. I 
think there's a lot of--if you had the first city-state, they try to tax 
people from other states, and we'd have to work though all that. And 
if----
    Mr. King. And if Puerto Rico wants statehood,

[[Page 1147]]

you'd be happy to welcome them as number 51?
    The President. If that's what they vote for. I think they, the 
people of Puerto Rico, should decide.
    Mr. King. We'll be back with President Clinton.

[The stations took a commercial break.]

    Mr. King. We're back on ``Larry King Live.'' Now, you would think 
these are two pretty powerful--the President of the United States. We're 
doing all right. The President had another commitment he didn't know 
about, right? So he'll be with us until the top of the hour. However, 
every 6 months we have a kind of rotating date, right, as promised 
during the campaign?
    The President. And I owe you a half an hour now.
    Mr. King. And he'll owe us a half an hour, so the next appearance 
will be 90 minutes in 6 months. Or 2 hours, as pointed out by Atlanta--
they never stop--2 hours, OK. But we do thank--there was another 
appointment which he was unaware of and we were unaware of. So we'll get 
to some calls quickly, and he will be returning every 6 months. He 
promised it during the campaign; this is the 6-month anniversary.
    Arlington, Virginia, with President Clinton. Hello.

President's Domestic Priorities

[A participant asked what the President would like his legacy to be.]

    Mr. King. Is it too early to have a legacy?
    The President. No, I'd be happy to tell you that. Number one, I'd 
like to get this economy moving again, get the deficit down and start 
creating jobs and seeing working Americans have their incomes go up.
    Number two, I'd like to provide health security for all Americans. 
I'd like for us to join all the other advanced countries in the world 
and provide a system of affordable health care to all of our people.
    Number three, I want my national service plan to pass. It will open 
the doors of college education to millions of Americans for lower 
interest loans and give many, many of them the chance to work those 
loans off through service at their communities.
    Number four, I strongly want to pass a welfare reform bill that will 
move people from welfare to work and end welfare as we know it.
    And five, I want to reform the political system. We have already 
passed the motor voter bill that makes it easier for people to register 
and vote. Three other bills that I care very deeply about have passed 
one House of Congress, but not both: one, a campaign finance reform bill 
to lower the cost of political campaigns, reduce the influence of PAC's, 
and open the airwaves to debate; two, a bill that drastically opens up 
lobbying behavior, restricting some lobbying behavior and requiring them 
to report what they spend on members of Congress; and three, the 
modified line-item veto, which I think will help discipline spending. So 
those are the things; I would like those things to be my legacy.

NAFTA

    Mr. King. Want NAFTA to pass, too?
    The President. Very much. I strongly support--I think it means more 
jobs, not less. Let me just make----
    Mr. King. You disagree with Mr. Perot?
    The President. I do, because keep in mind, anybody who wants to go 
to Mexico because they have low wages and send the products back here 
can do that today. Mexican tariffs on American products on average are 
higher than American tariffs on Mexican. Because of what President 
Salinas has done in lowering those tariffs in the last few years, we've 
gone from a $5 billion trade deficit to a $6 billion trade surplus with 
Mexico. They now have displaced Japan as the second biggest purchaser of 
American manufactured products. So I think a wealthier Mexico means more 
products going down there and more jobs for America.
    Mr. King. A quick call, last call. Paris, France, hello.

Terrorism

[A participant questioned U.S. policy toward Iran.]

    The President. The answer is we are doing everything we can to 
impose restrictions on trade with Iran. We are pressuring our allies and 
friends all the time not to support any government, including Iran, that 
supports terrorism and assassination.
    I'm glad you brought it up. I think it's a very significant problem. 
I hope you will press this hard in Paris as you are pressing Washington, 
because that is something that all the West

[[Page 1148]]

should be sensitive to. We must not allow Iraq, Iran, and other agents 
of terrorism and assassination to dominate the world politically and to 
terrorize innocent people. I think you're absolutely right.
    Mr. King. Thanks very much, Mr. President.
    The President. Thank you.

Note: The interview began at 9 p.m. The President spoke from the Library 
at the White House.