[Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: George H. W. Bush (1992-1993, Book II)]
[October 29, 1992]
[Pages 2079-2089]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]



Question-and-Answer Session in Grand Rapids
October 29, 1992

    Moderator. Okay, something about the questions that you're going to 
hear tonight: Contrary to some of the reports that some of you may have 
heard, TV-13 and Channel 4 in Detroit have selected the questions and 
selected the audience participants. There was no outside interference or 
approval from the Bush-Quayle campaign or the White House.
    There are a lot of questions, so without further ado, let's get to 
them. Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to introduce you to the President 
of the United States, George Bush.
    The President. Thank you very much. Fire away, Mort.
    Moderator. Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you for being with us 
tonight.
    The President. Delighted to be here, Mort.
    Moderator. We have gotten a lot of questions from people all over 
this State. And needless to say, a majority of them have concerned 
themselves with the economy, jobs, the business climate, taxes, things 
that go directly to the wallet.

Job Retraining

    Q. I have a question related to jobs. Despite the recent very 
minimal increases in growth, our economic crisis has resulted in a 
recent General Motors loss of more than $750 million. We are told that 
as many as 40,000 more auto workers will soon be out of work as a 
result. Aside from your position on modification of CAFE standards, I'd 
like to know specifically what you plan to do that will assist the 
working men and women of our great State of Michigan.
    The President. In the first place, I'm not sure I agree with your 
premise on the minimal growth; 2.7 is a fairly good growth. We have 
grown for six straight quarters. And yet the opposition keeps saying 
we're in a deep recession. If somebody's out of work, I'm sure he feels 
we're in a recession or a depression. So what we've got to do is get 
them back to work.
    I favor increasing our exports. Exports are going to lead us out of 
this global slowdown. I favor job retraining. You asked about people 
that might be out of a job. We have a vigorous $10 billion job retaining 
program. I think that's essential. But the main thing is to stimulate 
the economy, particularly the small business sector, through investment 
tax allowances, through capital gains reduction. Democrats all say 
that's a big break for the rich. It isn't. It will help people start 
businesses. Then, of course, I think that that first-time homebuyers 
credit--take a family that wants to buy a home for the first time, give 
them a $5,000 credit, and not only they'll get part of the American 
dream, but it will stimulate the entire housing industry.
    I think those three specifics are good. But the big difference I 
have with Governor Clinton on this is they want to come in and invest, 
have Government invest. Government never produced a constructive job in 
its life. It has to be the private sector. So the big difference I have 
is when they say they want to raise $220 billion in more spending and 
raise taxes. I think that would be the most counterproductive thing for 
an economy that is growing, albeit too slowly. Education, job retraining 
for the individuals you asked about.
    Q. Among minorities, unemployment is a major concern. I'd like to 
know what specifically you would do to improve the educational and job 
training opportunities for minority people.
    The President. Bernard, good question. We have a program called Job 
Training 2000. And it's a good one, and as I say, it takes people that 
are working and gives them a chance to get job training while

[[Page 2080]]

they're working. That's a new approach, apprenticeship approach.
    The best answer has got to be--you asked about education. I can't 
see where he is--I guess out there--education. We have a bold, new 
program called America 2000; 1,700 communities are already participating 
in it. You know, school choice--parents should be able to choose the 
school of their choice, whether they're religious, public, or private. 
And say, oh, that will diminish the public schools. No, it won't. It 
didn't do it when you had the GI bill. It will be a good thing, and it's 
working in Milwaukee in areas very much like downtown Detroit.
    So education is a little longer run; job training is the shorter 
run, job retraining.

Government Gridlock

    Q. Mr. President, if you're reelected, how do you specifically 
propose to enact your post-cold-war economic agenda through a 
Democratically controlled Congress?
    The President. Oh, that's going to be much better. First place, the 
time you get something done is the first part of your second term, no 
politics on the horizon, no more rallies, no more debates, maybe more of 
these kinds of things, but no more of the politics.
    Secondly, because Congress, who has been controlled by one party for 
38 years, has been in such disarray, they've disgraced themselves so 
much by fouling up a little tiny bank and a little tiny post office, 
you're going to have at least 100 new Members. Might have more than 
that. So what I'll do is sit down with these new Members, and they'll be 
listening to the same voters I am, and say, now let's get the people's 
business done. It's going to be done. I'm getting more confident. When 
I'm reelected, it's going to be done on the plan that I've been talking 
about, not the invest-and-grow-Government plan.
    He calls our plans for the economy trickle-down. It's trickle-down 
Government to go back to what Governor Clinton's talking about. We're 
not going to do that. But the way of getting it through the Congress is 
to start right in, sit down with them before they even take their seats, 
and say, now look, you're all brandnew around here; you don't have to do 
it the way it was--always been done by your leaders.
    Let me give you one example. I favor a balanced budget amendment. 
That's not going to cure everything, but many States operated under it, 
including Arkansas. I want that for the Nation. It passed the Senate. We 
had it down so it's almost passing the House. We needed eight votes. The 
Speaker and Mr. Gephardt twisted the arms of cosponsors, people that had 
actually cosponsored the legislation, and we lost it by I think it was 
four votes, three or four votes. That won't happen in a new Congress.
    You know, I want the line-item veto. I want the balanced budget 
amendment. I want a check-off so taxpayers can say, hey, we're worried 
about the deficit; make the Congress put this much money into deficit 
reduction. But the fundamental political science answer is new people 
get new things done.

The Economy

    Q. Mr. President, last evening the ABC News went back to New 
Hampshire and talked with a lady about, well, about how well she had 
done over the past 4 years. During that time her employer had had 
layoffs but has recently hired back, I believe, 17. She has received 
this year an increase of 4 percent in her wages. She stated that she now 
has approximately $4 per month deducted from her pay for health 
insurance, et cetera, that she didn't have 4 years ago. How do you 
answer people who appear to be living at about the same level as 4 years 
ago, and what do you feel that you can do for them for the next 4 years?
    The President. Well, I'm delighted that somebody found somebody in 
New Hampshire that had some good news, because every time I see one of 
these network programs you find somebody that has bad news. The 
unemployment's gone down for 3 straight months. And yet the minute they 
say, well, unemployment is down, ``Bad news for President Bush: job 
market shrinks.'' Here's Joe Schmaltz over here from New Hampshire, and 
he's having a tough time of it. So first, I'm delighted that somebody is 
doing a little bit better.
    I think the answer--first place, our productivity is way up in this 
country. We are

[[Page 2081]]

more productive than any other nation. We are not a nation in decline.
    Secondly, we've got interest rates down and inflation down, which 
poises this country for a real strong growth.
    Thirdly, the biggest growth for jobs that will pay better for this 
woman will be in exports, increasing our sales abroad, creating jobs in 
America. We've got the best product, the best workers. And you do that 
through continuing on my approach for a fair trade agreement, free trade 
agreement with Mexico. I want to do the same thing with Chile. I want to 
do the same thing in Eastern Europe. And I know some of the labor union 
leaders don't like that. They try to tell the workers, rank and file, 
that's going to mean shipping jobs abroad. It is not. And it's exports 
that's going to lead this world out of this slowdown.
    By the way, we are doing better than Japan and Germany and France 
and Canada. And I think I'd like to get that in perspective tonight 
because everybody listens to--those who listen to the other side think 
that the whole thing is in decline, and it's not.
    That's what I'd say to her. And more productivity. If you want to 
challenge up into a higher level kind of job, look at our six national 
education goals. The first President to ever have the goals adopted for 
this country. All 50 Governors--and I give Governor Clinton credit for 
this; he was activist in this. He helped the President, me, get these 
six education goals set. One of them is you're never too old to learn, 
which means more job retraining. And the other one, the second one, is 
more math and science. It's very difficult for a woman who already has a 
job. But for the future, to get the levels of pay up, we've got to do a 
better job on education.
    So it's a combination of these things, in my view, that will make 
her life better. But do not believe the American dream is dead. We're 
going to grow more. We've been told for months we're in a recession, and 
we're not. We've got growth out there. If we listen, have sound 
policies, and don't go back to the failed ``misery index'' days of Jimmy 
Carter with interest rates at 21 or 19, between 19 and 21 percent, and 
inflation at 15. Spend and tax, spend and tax got us there. If we don't 
do that, I think that this woman has an enormously challenging and 
bright future.

Capital Gains Tax

    Q. Mr. President, you propose a capital gains cut to stimulate the 
economy. Isn't it likely that this will only increase the bipolarization 
in the classes, since it traditionally favors the rich?
    The President. I don't think so at all. There was a thing called the 
Steiger amendment in 1978, where capital gains rates were reduced. And 
it resulted in a splurge of new businesses being started. I realize that 
if you are just trying to get some facts out there, all you hear from 
the Democrats is that that helps the rich. It is small business that 
benefits from that. It is small businesses that get started from a 
capital gains reduction, particularly in the science and electronic 
fields.
    So I would say it isn't just rich people that benefit at all. And 
it's going to stimulate the economy. So for those who think it's a break 
for the rich, I just disagree with them. And I've got evidence on my 
side through when Bill Steiger of Wisconsin got it passed in '78, it 
gave a real surge to the economy.
    Moderator. President Bush, we thank you. And in a moment we're going 
to be back to talk about other issues that are obviously of great 
concern to people around the State of Michigan. One of those, perhaps 
ranking right up there with the jobs situation, at least for people in 
the city of Detroit, is the issue of crime. And we'll have a question on 
that subject when we return.

[At this point, the television station took a commercial break.]

Urban Policy

    Q. Mr. President, I see my neighbors locked behind their doors with 
bars on their windows. I've had two cars stolen. I see crackheads on the 
street. And I want to know what's your plan to combat the urban crime, 
the urban problem of crimes, drugs, and guns.
    The President. You know, that's a very good question. And some of 
the areas that are impacted like his, really there's a sense

[[Page 2082]]

of hopelessness. Mothers don't dare go down to the corner store at 
night. I'll tell you what I think we need to do. I think we need to get 
some stronger anticrime legislation. Then I'll tell you what else I 
think we need to do. By stronger anticrime legislation, I think we need 
to back our police officers more, people that are risking their lives 
for his neighbors and anybody's neighbors. By that I mean we've go to 
pass changes to the exclusionary rule, a little technical, but it says 
if a police officer arrests a guy and then he has a slight technicality, 
not malicious, not willful, that that case is not going to be thrown out 
of court.
    I want to see habeas corpus reform. I am not a lawyer. I wear that 
badge proudly. But I do think that these endless appeals make swift and 
sure and fair sentencing much less likely. And so we need to change the 
habeas corpus reform, reform habeas corpus. I happen to believe we need 
a stricter Federal death penalty for those who kill law enforcement 
officers.
    So I am for much stronger legislation. Again, I've battled with the 
gridlock guys for a long time on that. But the new Members coming, I 
think we can get that done.
    Now on the hope side. We have a program called ``Weed and Seed.'' 
And it is an outstanding program. It's already working in Detroit under 
a program called Reach where a private guy, a minister, I believe it is, 
works with some Federal money to make it work. ``Weed and Seed:'' weed 
out the criminal elements through tough law enforcement and then seed 
the neighborhood with hope. That means enterprise zones, which we have 
been battling to get through in the Congress; more homeownership; tenant 
management, where the tenants manage the property to bring back pride.
    But on his point, we must go with tougher law and Federal law 
enforcement. You know, I can't speak for the locals, but I back the 
police, and I was very pleased when eight guys from Little Rock, 
Arkansas, the FOP, the Order of Policemen, came up and endorsed me for 
President, because I think they know I back them with strong 
legislation. But I don't think there's any other answer to it.
    One other thing. We've got to win the battle on our antidrug fight. 
We're doing better on interdiction. Sixty percent lower use of cocaine 
by teenagers, that's good. But where we're not making progress is with 
these addicts, the addictive age. Crack cocaine is just brutal for them. 
So we've got to do better in terms of interdiction, and we've got to do 
better in terms of rehabilitation and treatment. And drug spending, 
antidrug spending from us is way, way up.

School Choice

    Q. President Bush, this question goes back to the issue of education 
in our society. You have proposed allowing students to attend the 
schools of their choice, and this would mean that students who have more 
resources would be able to attend the more affluent schools, leaving 
those who are socio-economically disadvantaged in the poorer quality 
schools. How would your proposal help those who are socio-economically 
disadvantaged, and what do you propose for improving the quality of 
disadvantaged schools?
    The President. The first place, my program for school choice was 
tried first in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. A Democratic Mayor and a Democratic 
legislator, a woman named Polly Williams, decided something different 
had to happen there. Polly was told that her kid was dysfunctional, 
going to a lousy school. They worked out a choice program at the 
Milwaukee level. And her kid is now performing well. And the school that 
wasn't chosen is making itself better.
    The GI bill after World War II went to an individual soldier getting 
out of the armed service. He could choose public, private, or religious. 
That did not hurt the State universities. The same thing would be true 
with this plan. The answer to the socio-disadvantaged is to do what my 
program calls for: give them a stipend to choose whether they want a 
public school, fine; private school, fine; or religious school, fine. As 
you do that, you're going to find that the schools not chosen are going 
to better themselves.
    There's plenty of examples. Rochester, New York, has some of that. 
Milwaukee, I've already mentioned. So we ought to try it. And my 
program's called the ``GI bill'' for kids. It 
helps the kind of person that she

[[Page 2083]]

properly was identifying with and talking about. I think we ought to try 
something new. Education and the control of the Congress are two things 
that haven't changed in years, and we ought to change both.
    Moderator. President Bush, as a followup to that, there are those, 
and you're well aware of it, who claim that this program of yours is 
flirting dangerously with the separation of church and state.
    The President. Uh-uh. No, because it doesn't go to the schools, it 
goes to the parents. Did anyone make that claim, Mort, after the GI 
bill? Is anyone saying that violates separation of church and state? It 
doesn't. It goes to the family. And the families can choose what they 
want. Does a Pell grant blur the lines between separation of church and 
state? I don't think so. So I would argue that since it goes to the 
people, goes to the family, it is not a separation of church and state 
problem.
    Q. Mr. President, I represent many parents in this community that 
sacrifice greatly to send our children to the Christian schools so they 
can enjoy the religious freedom that this great country was built on. We 
also pay property taxes, which go to support the public schools. My 
question for you is, will your ``GI bill'' for children go far enough to 
give us relief from this double payment? And alternatively, what are 
your views on tax deductions or tax credits for this?
    The President.  Well, tax credits is a good idea, but I don't want--
level with you, there isn't enough money around when we're operating at 
these enormous deficits to do that. But the school choice will 
supplement your family income to permit them to go to this school that 
you've already chosen. But I don't want to mislead you. I don't believe 
that you can, even though there's--you're choosing, you're choosing the 
school. I don't think I can offer more than this ``GI bill'' for people 
that choose.
    I like the concept of tax credits. But I just don't want to mislead 
you. I don't think that that's going to be enacted in the next few years 
because of the deficit we're operating at and because of the need to try 
to live within our means a little more at the Federal level, thus 
stimulating more jobs in the private sector.

Bosnia

    Q. Mr. President, what in your opinion is the main obstacle that 
hinders the United States from intervening in the killing of innocent 
people in Croatia and Bosnia?
    The President. The main obstacle is that as long as I'm President, 
I'm not going to put American forces into a troubled situation unless I 
can see what the mission is, I can see how that mission is going to be 
achieved, and then I can see how those troops come out. I'm old enough 
to have learned something from my own experience in uniform. One of it 
was World War II. We fought and won. Everybody had everything they 
needed to get the job done. Vietnam, we didn't. And the horrible 
problems that your loved ones face cannot be solved by putting the 82d 
Airborne division into Bosnia. It simply can't be done.
    He's torn because there's these tremendous historic ethnic rivalries 
that are now coming to the surface because of the collapse of Soviet 
communism and thus the iron hand that they once had over all these 
different, now independent countries. We are helping. The United States 
is helping with relief. We always do. We always should, as we are here, 
as we are in Somalia and elsewhere. But I don't want to act like we're 
going to solve this problem militarily.
    We took the lead at the United Nations in passing a no-fly zone, so 
those Serbian aircraft would not bomb the hapless citizens. And it is 
working. The question is what do we do in terms of enforcement if it 
doesn't work, and that's a question that any President will have to face 
at the appropriate time. But it does not lend itself--I say this to him 
with great angst--to put American kids on the ground, in these 
mountains, down into an area that looks like Dien Bien Phu. And I simply 
won't do that as President, unless my respected military leaders, Colin 
Powell and Dick Cheney, come and say, ``Now, look, here's the way you 
get them in. Here's their mission. And here's when you get them out.'' 
We did it in Desert Storm. We'll do it--but I don't believe that's going 
to happen.

Somalia

    Moderator. Mr. President, a followup to

[[Page 2084]]

that. There are those who, having seen the pictures of the enormous 
tragedy in Somalia, the starving children, the death, the devastation 
there, feel that the United States with all of its wealth and 
traditional compassion has reacted too little and too late to assist the 
people of Somalia. Your response to that?
    The President. My response is they're wrong. They're right in the 
angst and the agony one feels in one's heart when you see those ghastly 
pictures of those starving kids. But it is the United States that has 
taken the lead in relief.
    And you've got a problem, Mort. Again, you've got almost anarchy 
over there. You have warlords controlling the ports. They're armed. They 
go--and they're shooting up the United Nations forces. We were very 
active in the United Nations to get U.N. forces on the ground. But 
they're having difficulty separating these warlords one from the other. 
We're sending our supplies in there. We are helping.
    I had quite a positive report the other day, because some of those 
kids--the pictures, my gosh, they just kill you, the little skinny arms. 
And it just wrenches the heart of any American. But the good news is a 
lot of those kids getting any nourishment are coming back. And I think 
we can take pride that once again we have stepped up to the lick-log and 
done our share.
    So I would argue with those who say that we're not doing our part. 
We are. And maybe you can say, well you never do enough. But then you've 
got to look at the situation on the ground. There's anarchy there. It's 
a terrible thing. Once the Siad government went out, you've got all 
these factions shooting, fighting, killing. Seventeen-year-olds with 
weapons from the former Soviet empire just shooting it up on the port, 
stealing the relief supplies, and taking them for their families and 
leaving these kids starving. It is tough.

Middle East Peace Talks

    Q. How do you plan, Mr. Bush, to keep the Middle East peace talks 
going in a fair and representative manner? What do you hope that each 
side will ultimately aspire to, and how will it affect the global 
community?
    The President. Dana, I never thought anybody would ask such an 
intelligent question, because I've been running this campaign--you might 
think foreign affairs don't matter. Look--and this gives me a chance to 
hit it partially out of the park. Because of what we did in Desert 
Storm, we were able--with the able leadership of a great team, Jim 
Baker, who's with me here tonight, and Brent Scowcroft in the White 
House and Larry Eagleburger and many others--to get these parties, 
historic enemies, talking to each other in the Middle East. If you'd 
have said when I became President that Arabs would be talking to Israel, 
nobody would have believed it. And we did it. We did it by defending our 
own foreign policy interests. We did it by helping kill aggression.
    So the talks are going on, and in my view they will continue to go 
on. There were some cross-border problems in Lebanon and Israel the 
other day, but I think the talks are going to go on because I think all 
sides want it. You're seeing progress. You're seeing Syrian Jews 
permitted to leave, and you're seeing much more in the way of talking.
    You asked what do I aspire for, to do: Simply to have peace in the 
Middle East. It's got to be based on the U.N. Security Resolutions 242, 
338, which talks about getting the borders adjusted, safe and secure 
borders for Israel. And you're going to--have to be compromise. But 
they're talking. And it is a dramatic accomplishment.
    There's so many factions there, the Syrians and the Palestinians and 
the Lebanese, that I can't give you a formula in 10 seconds about it. 
But I am convinced that the talks will continue. They want peace. And 
all the Arab countries are pitching in. We are the first administration 
to ever bring about that kind of widespread negotiation.
    Moderator. Do you think if you were reelected for the next 4 years, 
it is possible to get some kind of a settlement once and for all?
    The President. I would think it's possible. I wouldn't want to hold 
out a false goal. But I think it's possible, yes. That's a good word for 
it, possible. But it's very important that it do happen. We have a 
special relationship

[[Page 2085]]

with Israel because of the way we've conducted our foreign policy. Again 
back to the Gulf, we have very strong relations with Saudi Arabia.
    I took a little flak for talking to Assad of Syria in some quarters. 
But it was the right thing to do, and now Syria is having some 
discussion at these peace talks with Israel. Who would have thought that 
possible?
    So I think it is possible. I certainly hope it's possible.

[At this point, the television station took a commercial break.]

Polls

    Moderator. And we are back in Grand Rapids for a live statewide town 
hall meeting with the President of the United States. We're going to 
talk politics just a minute, oh my goodness. We're going to talk about 
the polls that have been out in the last couple of days. They've shown a 
narrowing, no matter how you read them. How do you respond? What do you 
think is happening?
    The President. Well, you're talking to a guy that berated the 
pollsters when they were looking horrible--[laughter]--about a week ago 
or 2 weeks ago. You're talking to a guy that was written off by the 
talking heads in the national media. So I think it might be 
inappropriate to try to analyze the polls when they're looking very, 
very encouraging, because then the talking heads will come on and say on 
Sunday morning with the Republicans, Democrats, all of whom have written 
me off, ``Hey, here he is. Said he doesn't count on polls, and he's 
talking about how great the polls are.''
    Leave the poll aside; something's happening in the country. There's 
some change. There's something that's beginning. I'll tell you what I 
think it is. I think people get serious at the end. And I think they are 
really saying, who do you trust with your family, in a crisis, to be in 
that Oval Office? Who has the character? Who do you trust? I honestly 
believe that's what's beginning to happen out there.
    So I'd rather not comment on the polls because I'll get hit in the 
face with them if they goose up about three points tomorrow, you know. 
[Laughter]
    Moderator. You don't still consider them all nutty pollsters, 
though, now.
    The President. Well, I'm less inclined to say that, but--
[laughter]--but to be very candid with you, but look, how do they jump 
around? How does one poll have 10 points and the very same day the other 
one have 2 or 20 points and 3? Something's strange. And I don't know 
what it is. It's the weirdest political year I've ever seen in my life. 
And the pollsters can fit right into there. Now they do seem to be 
coming together in a--you know, but we'll see. I just don't know.

Ross Perot

    Moderator. As a good reporter, I have to tell you what I observed. 
And during our break a while ago, President Bush got a big laugh from 
this audience when he picked up a magazine and flipped through it and 
said, ``I want to be like Ross Perot and have my flip charts.''
    Well, we do have a question about Ross Perot.
    Q. Good evening, Mr. President. My question is rather brief. If you 
are reelected, do you have any intentions of putting Ross Perot on any 
economic committees?
    The President. Well, not the one in charge of gas taxes--
[laughter]--because he wants to raise gasoline taxes 50 cents a gallon 
over 5 years. I don't want to do that. I think all people that have to 
drive to work, particularly with long distances, it's a bad thing to do. 
I don't think we need to raise the taxes. I've got a difference with him 
on Social Security, where he thinks all mandatory programs must be cut 
to some degree, and he included at one juncture Social Security. I don't 
believe we should touch Social Security. It's a sacrosanct trust, and I 
don't think we ought to do it.
    I've already consulted Ross Perot when I was Vice President on the 
POW thing. I give him credit for having a dedication in that area. But I 
don't really know on the overall economic--anybody that makes himself $3 
billion has got to be pretty bright on some of the economic matters. So 
I would reach out to a wide array of people. But I've got to be a little 
vague because we do have some fundamental differences as

[[Page 2086]]

what we need to do to get the economy going.

AIDS

    Q. The 1991 report of the National Commission on AIDS states that 
the people of the United States must either engage seriously the issues 
and needs posed by this deadly disease or face relentless, expanding 
tragedy in the decades ahead. Mr. President, you've been accused of 
failing to respond to the recommendations of your committee. How do you 
respond?
    The President. One, it's not my committee. And two, I respond by 
saying we've increased AIDS spending dramatically. I requested in the 
last year $4.9 billion. That is 10 times as much per AIDS victim as is 
spent on cancer. We've got a strong program. The NIH researchers, 
National Institute of Health researchers, are the best in the world.
    We get plenty of criticism, but here's my view on it. We must 
continue with AIDS research at substantial levels. We have sped up the 
coming to market of AIDS-related drugs, having to stimulate, get that 
FDA to move those drugs to market. And then I've got to do a better job 
on education, because AIDS is a disease where behavior matters.
    I said that one time, and a bunch of these crazy ACT-UP, the extreme 
group that hurt their cause, came up to a little town where Barbara and 
I were and started saying, Bush ought to change his behavior. When 
you're doing something that is known to cause the disease you ought to 
stop doing it, whether it's a dirty needle or some kind of a sexual 
behavior that is known to cause the disease. In addition to being 
compassionate, in addition to spending money for research, we ought to 
be sure that everybody knows what causes the disease. People that do 
things that cause it ought to stop doing them, whether it's dirty 
needles or what I've just referred to.
    I feel uncomfortable talking about it. But the people at NIH asked 
me to make clear to the American people that AIDS is a disease where 
some of it is behavioral. So we ought to change behavior if it's going 
to cause more of the disease.
    Moderator. Mr. President, speaking of your Commission on AIDS, in a 
much-publicized move, Magic Johnson, of course, resigned. Why do you 
think he did that?
    The President. I'll be darned if I know. I had a good meeting with 
him in the White House, and said, ``If you've got any specific 
suggestions, let me know.'' I never heard from him after that.
    I do have some differences with the Commission. The reason I 
answered her tersely is that it is not a Presidential commission. It 
might be Presidential level, but some of the people on there are not 
appointed by me; some are. And I have respect for them. But they are far 
out. They want more, more, more. And I have to sort out priorities for 
all diseases that the Federal Government can help spend money on. How 
about cancer? How about heart? How about all of these diseases? We're 
dealing with somewhat limited resources. In spite of that, AIDS--I want 
to say doubled since I've been President, but it's a major increase. But 
I have some differences with the Commission.
    I've met with the Commission. I've gone to NIH and held a seminar 
with AIDS victims, young kids whose lives were going away, teenagers and 
young men, and held AIDS babies in my arms. But somehow the extreme 
elements in that community refused to say that we care about it.
    You know, they had this big quilt ceremony out on the lawn, south of 
the White House there. It was a very moving thing, because I saw a lot 
of pictures of it. And one of the AIDS activists said, ``Well, why 
didn't you go?'' And I said, ``I didn't want to go to take something 
solemn and sensitive and be a lightning rod for the extremes.'' That's 
why I didn't go, and that's why Barbara didn't go. She's a very caring 
person.

Abortion

    Q. Many college students support the freedom of reproductive choice. 
If you would support your granddaughter's choice to have an abortion, 
then why would you not want us to have that same choice?
    The President. I don't support her choice of having abortion. The 
question was, if she had an abortion, what would I do? I'd love her. I'd 
hold her in my arms and comfort her. If she came to me for advice, I'd 
say,

[[Page 2087]]

``Hey, listen, I come down on the side of life.'' I'm appalled that 
there's 28 million abortions. So it's a very tough issue. It divides 
everybody. People get mad at each other. People get hurt on the issue. I 
happen to opt for life because I--and we have two adopted grandchildren. 
Thank God they weren't aborted. So I feel that way.
    But I'll tell you where I think choice--let me ask you something. I 
can't--through this television set here. But let me ask you: A 13-year-
old can't get her ears pierced or take medicine without getting the 
parent's approval. Yet a 13-year-old, according to some of these people, 
ought to be able to have an abortion. I don't think that's right. I 
think parents should have to have a say in this. There's a big 
difference I have with some of the women's movement out there.
    But I will say this: I do recognize there are strong differences. I 
have just concluded, after a lot of agony and evolution of position, 
that we ought to err on the side of life and not on the side of more and 
more abortions.

Environmental Policy

    Moderator. Mr. President, a lot of people believe that the ultimate 
ability to sustain life on this planet will be directly linked to how 
well we preserve it and take care of it and clean it up. Environmental 
issues are big this year with a lot of people, and we have somebody 
standing by in Holland right now who has such a question on their mind.
    Q. Mr. President, 4 years ago you claimed to be an environmentalist. 
But last summer in Brazil our country failed--and was one of the only 
countries, if not the only one, that failed to sign on to an agreement 
to protect biological diversity. And furthermore, our country sought to 
weaken one on protecting the global environment from increases in global 
temperature. Repeatedly your administration has also sought to weaken 
the Clean Air Act and the Endangered Species Act, as well as to permit 
increased oil exploration in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.
    The President. We're strongly for that.
    Q. And also to decrease the amount of protection to wetlands. My 
question then is if you're elected for another 4 year term, are we going 
to continue along the same path vis-a-vis environmental issues, or are 
we going to see some change in environmental policy that a lot of folks 
in the country think is important?
    The President. Well, professor, you sound like Ozone Man, Mr. Gore. 
I am not an extremist. We have a good, good record on the environment. 
We've done more for the oceans. We passed the Clean Air Act. We've done 
great things for the forests. But I do not consider it leadership to go 
down to Rio de Janeiro in front of a bunch of NGO's, non-government 
organizations, and try to buy their favor by getting in line, buy a lot 
of other people who want to go after our biodiversity proprieties, our 
research. We have a strong record in biodiversity. But I simply don't 
think that just getting in line and signing up for a treaty is a good 
thing to do. We're the leaders on it, and because of what I did, we will 
be in a much better position to share our research with other countries.
    On climate change, we did change it a little bit, because I don't 
want to see us burden the automotive industry with the kind of costs 
that the Europeans wanted us to put on the industry.
    What I'm saying--you mentioned the Endangered Species--yes, I came 
down in favor of a more moderate consideration for this owl out there, 
the spotted owl, because 30,000 American families--somebody ought to 
think about them, too.
    So I think we've got a good record. But my difference is, when you 
come up here to the auto industry and suggest we put 40- to 45-miles-
per-gallon CAFE standards, these fuel efficiency standards--who's going 
to think of the auto worker's family? Yes, it would be nice to be able 
to say that. Who's going to be able to produce cars with that kind of 
thing right away? Nobody. And so we've got to find some balance.
    Moderator. President Bush, on the subject of CAFE standards, you 
have repeatedly charged that Governor Clinton has set 40 or 45 as 
something he would like to legislate. We've gone back and listened to 
the tapes and examined his speeches. He insists that he has set that as 
a goal, that it's something

[[Page 2088]]

we ought to aspire to. Would you accept that as a goal?
    The President. No. I don't want to set it as a goal until I'm told 
by good scientists it can be achieved without putting a lot of people 
out of work. I wish I had my notes here with me, because I read a 
specific quote from Clinton's energy strategy that had it calling for 
legislation.
    Yes, he's changed his position. But that gets back to a whole other 
argument I've got with him. You're changing wherever you go, whether 
it's the free trade agreement, whether it's on your own record on the 
draft, or whether it's clean air standards. You can't do that.
    So if you want to set a goal for way out there, fine. But let's not 
go to the extreme on these environmental matters. We've got a very good 
record on the environment. We've got a great environmentalist in Bill 
Reilly heading EPA. We've got a good record on wetlands. But I'll tell 
you, with all respect to the professor, maybe he's pretty reasonable, 
but I couldn't tell it from the way the question came out, because we 
can't go off to the extremes and still talk about how we're going to 
help all these people that are looking for jobs.

Leadership

    Q. Mr. President, you were elected to provide leadership in the 
governance of this country. Good leaders get results through working 
with people and through people. Good leaders are also held accountable 
for results. My question is why are you constantly blaming Congress for 
your failures?
    The President. Well, I'm not always blaming them. I'm just trying to 
shift some of the blame where it belongs, to the Congress. They 
appropriate every dime. They tell me as President how to spend every 
dime. I have gone up--I'll give you a good example, Larry. It was Larry, 
wasn't it? I'll give you a good example anyway, whether it was Larry or 
not. [Laughter]
    Look, after South Central riots over there in Los Angeles, I sat 
down with Mayor Bradley, a big Democrat out there; the Governor, a 
Republican; Peter Ueberroth. They said what we need is enterprise zones. 
Every one of them agreed on that. I went to the boys club there in the 
neighborhood that had been wiped out by these rioters. Everyone said we 
need enterprise zones. I invited them back. We met with the Democratic 
leadership, Speaker, Mitchell, Gephardt. I still haven't got the kind of 
enterprise zones legislation that would have helped South Central and 
would help Detroit today. It's not my fault that the Congress refuses to 
go along. Here was a bipartisan appeal. I give you but one example of 
that.
    You talk about leadership. I didn't need Congress in the war, and we 
forged the coalition. We made a tough decision. We dragged some of the 
reluctant ones along, and we did what had to be done. And so there is a 
difference between national security policy, foreign affairs, and some 
domestic policy. We got some things done early on with Congress. The 
best piece of civil rights legislation in this decade is the Americans 
for Disabilities Act. We passed it. We got a good child care bill. We 
now have a highway bill.
    But I'll tell you, they made a decision: The only way we are going 
to win the White House is by denying the President success on some of 
this terribly important domestic legislation. That is the fact. And if 
you want to help change it, clean House. Clean House, and give some new 
ideas a chance that are just stymied by these old thinkers.

President's Motivation for Reelection

    Q. Mr. President, why do you want 4 more years as President? What's 
your motivation?
    The President. Well, I'll tell you something, that is a profound 
question, because--look, Barbara and I have got a pretty good life. This 
has been the ugliest year I can ever remember in terms of politics. It 
has been terrible. Ironically, it's true around the world if you look--
have a broad perspective. But I like to finish what I've started. I 
believe that this country is not in decline. I believe we're a rising 
nation. I believe we can ameliorate the problems that we're hearing 
about here tonight with the answers that I've given you here tonight. 
And I just feel driven to try to help achieve our education goals, to 
win the

[[Page 2089]]

battle against narcotics, to do better with the new ideas I've got on 
housing.
    So get in there and finish what you start. And that's what does it. 
Because, beckoning out there, let's face it--everyone knows everything 
about my worth or lack thereof, or debt or lack thereof. Life's been 
pretty good to me. I'm big in the grandchild business now, and someday 
I'll get a lot bigger in it.
    But you set these things aside. I want to finish and try to help 
people. That's what motivates us. Because otherwise, in this kind of 
year, why in God's name would anybody in his right mind want to be in 
this arena, when anybody can take a cheap shot at you. It's the worst. 
I've never seen the national media, ever, anything like this. I've never 
seen them having seminars--``Have we been fair to President Bush''--
before, a President. They're doing it. Ted Koppel comes on, ``Oh, yes, 
they're wondering whether they've been fair.'' They know darn well they 
haven't.
    Go around them. Go to the people. Get the job done. But it isn't 
much fun. But it's going to change after the election. Help me.
    Moderator. Speaking of change, Mr.--I'm sorry?
    The President. No, no. I'm finished.

Asian Americans

    Q. My question is, you've made a concerted effort to hire African 
Americans and Hispanic Americans to your Cabinet. You often speak of 
Asian Americans as like a model minority, but very few can be found in 
your administration. What plans do you have to redress this issue?
    The President. Good question. And I think we can do better on that. 
There's none that I know of in the Cabinet. We have, I think--you know, 
all these people, ``We have appointed more Asian Americans''--I believe 
I have, at high levels; not in the Cabinet. But I take your point. I 
think we ought to strive to do better. But I think if I could--I don't 
know how to get a hold of you--but send you the analysis of Asian 
Americans in high-level jobs, I think you'll find that it has exceeded 
the record by any other administration.
    But I take your point on Cabinet. I think there's some status and 
standing to Cabinet that gives groups of all persuasions a certain hope. 
Maybe we can do better there.

Urban Policy

    Moderator. Mr. President, there is a perception, certainly in the 
city of Detroit--I can't speak for all American cities--that beginning 
with the election of Ronald Reagan in 1980, nominated in the city of 
Detroit, as you well know, that the administration simply has ignored 
the cities; the theory being that inner-city people aren't voting for 
Republicans, so therefore let's go out and work with the areas where 
we're getting the most votes. Is that a true perception? If it's not, 
how do you break it down?
    The President. It's not a true perception because I have just cited 
some things that would in a very likely way lift up and give hope to 
urban America. And I'm talking about empowerment of people as opposed to 
Government jobs. I'm talking about enterprise zones. I'm talking about 
homeownership. Again, I'll cite ``Weed and Seed.'' I believe that those 
programs and those ideas ought to be tried.
    Some say there's no new ideas. They're new until they've been tried. 
Instead of that, you have a lot of these bosses in these cities that 
haven't had a new thought in years. They promise the people one thing, 
tell them to vote the straight lever, and then the people say, ``Hey, I 
didn't get anything out of anything.'' Why don't they try some new 
ideas? Why aren't they willing to try what I've said, for example, start 
out on enterprise zones?
    Moderator. Mr. President, time flies when we're having fun. And we 
do thank you. The hour is up. It's been a pleasure having you in Grand 
Rapids to address the people of Michigan through this statewide network.
    The President. Thank you, Mort.

                    Note: The question-and-answer session began at 8 
                        p.m. at the West Michigan Public Broadcasting 
                        Center. News anchors Lee Van Amede, WZZM-TV, 
                        Grand Rapids, and Mort Krim, WDIV-TV, Detroit, 
                        served as moderators for the session.