[Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: George H. W. Bush (1992-1993, Book II)]
[October 19, 1992]
[Pages 1852-1876]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]



Presidential Debate in East Lansing, Michigan
October 19, 1992

    Jim Lehrer. Good evening. Welcome to this third and final debate 
among the three major candidates for President of the United States: 
Governor Bill Clinton, the Democratic nominee; President George Bush, 
the Republican nominee; and independent candidate Ross Perot.
    I am Jim Lehrer, of ``The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour'' on PBS. I will 
be the moderator for this debate, which is being sponsored by the 
Commission on Presidential Debates. It will be 90 minutes long. It is

[[Page 1853]]

happening before an audience on the campus of Michigan State University 
in East Lansing.
    The format was conceived by and agreed to by representatives of the 
Bush and Clinton campaigns. And it is somewhat different than those used 
in the earlier debates. I will ask questions for the first half under 
rules that permit followups. A panel of three other journalists will ask 
questions in the second half under rules that do not. As always, each 
candidate will have 2 minutes, up to 2 minutes, to make a closing 
statement. The order of those as well as that for the formal questioning 
were all determined by a drawing.
    Gentlemen, again, welcome. And again, good evening.

Credibility

    It seems, from what some of those voters said at your Richmond 
debate and from polling and other data, that each of you, fairly or not, 
faces serious voter concerns about the underlying credibility and 
believability of what each of you says you would do as President in the 
next 4 years.
    Governor Clinton, in accordance with the draw, those concerns about 
you are first. You are promising to create jobs, reduce the deficit, 
reform the health care system, rebuild the infrastructure, guarantee 
college education for everyone who is qualified, among many other 
things, all with financial pain only for the very rich. Some people are 
having trouble, apparently, believing that is possible. Should they have 
that concern?
    Governor Clinton. No. There are many people who believe that the 
only way we can get this country turned around is to tax the middle 
class more and punish them more. But the truth is that middle class 
Americans are basically the only group of Americans who have been taxed 
more in the 1980's and during the last 12 years even though their 
incomes have gone down. The wealthiest Americans have been taxed much 
less even though their incomes have gone up.
    Middle class people will have their fair share of changing to do and 
many challenges to face, including the challenge of becoming constantly 
reeducated. But my plan is a departure from trickle-down economics, just 
cutting taxes on the wealthiest Americans and getting out of the way. 
It's also a departure from tax-and-spend economics because you can't tax 
and divide an economy that isn't growing.
    I propose an American version of what works in other countries. I 
think we can do it better: invest and grow. I believe we can increase 
investment and reduce the deficit at the same time if we not only ask 
the wealthiest Americans and foreign corporations to pay their fair 
share, we also provide over $100 billion in tax relief in terms of 
incentives for new plants, new small businesses, new technologies, new 
housing, and for middle class families, and we have $140 billion of 
spending cuts.
    Invest and grow: raise some more money; spend the money on tax 
incentives to have growth in the private sector; take the money from the 
defense cuts and reinvest it in new transportation and communications 
and environmental cleanup systems. This will work.
    On this, as on so many other issues, I have a fundamental difference 
from the present administration. I don't believe trickle-down economics 
will work. Unemployment is up. Most people are working harder for less 
money than they were making 10 years ago. I think we can do better if we 
have the courage to change.
    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. President, a response.
    President Bush. Do I have one minute? Just the ground rules here.
    Mr. Lehrer. Well, you have roughly one minute. We can loosen that up 
a little bit. But go ahead.
    President Bush. He doesn't like trickle-down Government, but hey, I 
think he's talking about the Reagan-Bush years where we created 15 
million jobs. The rich are paying a bigger percent of the total tax 
burden. What I don't like is trickle-down Government. I think Governor 
Clinton keeps talking about trickle-down, trickle-down, and he's still 
talking about spending more and taxing more.
    Government, he says, invest Government, grow Government. Government 
doesn't create jobs. If they do, they're make-work jobs. It's the 
private sector that creates jobs.

[[Page 1854]]

And yes, we've got too many taxes on the American people, and we're 
spending too much. That's why I want to get the deficit down by 
controlling the growth of mandatory spending.
    It won't be painless. I think Mr. Perot put his finger on something 
there. It won't be painless, but we've got to get the job done. But not 
by raising taxes.
    Mr. and Mrs. America, when you hear him say we're going to tax only 
the rich, watch your wallet, because his figures don't add up, and he's 
going to sock it right to the middle class taxpayer and lower if he's 
going to pay for all the spending programs he's proposed. So we have a 
big difference on this trickle-down theory. I do not want any more 
trickle-down Government. It's gotten too big. I want to do something 
about that.
    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. Perot, what do you think of the Governor's approach, 
what he just laid out?
    Mr. Perot. Well, the basic problem with it is it doesn't balance the 
budget. If you forecast it out, you still will have a significant 
deficit under each of their plans, as I understand them. Our challenge 
is to stop the financial bleeding. If you take a patient into a hospital 
that's bleeding arterially, step one is to stop the bleeding. And we are 
bleeding arterially.
    There's only one way out of this, and that is to stop the 
deterioration of our job base, to have a growing, expanding job base to 
give us the tax base. See, balancing the budget is not nearly as 
difficult as paying off the $4 trillion debt and leaving our children 
the American dream intact. We have spent their money. We have got to pay 
it back. This is going to take fair-shared sacrifice.
    My plan balances the budget within 6 years. We didn't do it faster 
than that because we didn't want to disrupt the economy. We gave it off 
to a slow start and a fast finish to give the economy time to recover. 
But we faced it, and we did it. And we believe it's fair-shared 
sacrifice.
    The one thing I have done is lay it squarely on the table in front 
of the American people. You've had a number of occasions to see in 
detail what the plan is and at least you'll understand it. I think 
that's fundamental in our country that you know what you're getting 
into.
    Mr. Lehrer. Governor, the word ``pain,'' one of the other leadership 
things that's put on you is that you don't speak of pain, that you speak 
of all things--nobody's going to really have to suffer under your plan. 
You've heard what Mr. Perot has said. He said to do the things you want 
to do, you can't do it by just taking the money from the rich. That's 
what the President says as well. How do you respond to that? The numbers 
don't add up.
    Governor Clinton. I disagree with both of them. Let me just follow 
up here. I disagree with Mr. Perot that the answer is to put a 50-cent 
gas tax on the middle class and raise more taxes on the middle class and 
the working poor than on the wealthy. His own analysis says that 
unemployment will be slightly higher in 1995 under his plan than it is 
today. As far as what Mr. Bush says, he is the person who raised taxes 
on the middle class after saying he wouldn't. Just this year Mr. Bush 
vetoed a tax increase on the wealthy that gave middle class tax relief. 
He vetoed middle class tax relief this year.
    Furthermore, under this administration, spending has increased more 
than it has in the last 20 years, and he asked Congress to spend more 
money than it actually spent. Now, it's hard to outspend Congress, but 
he tried to for the last 3 years.
    So my view is the middle class is the--they've been suffering, Jim. 
Now, should people pay more for Medicare if they can? Yes. Should they 
pay more for Social Security if they get more out of it than they've 
paid in and they're upper income people? Yes. But look what's happened 
to the middle class. Middle class Americans are working harder for less 
money than they were making 10 years ago, and they're paying higher 
taxes. The tax burden on them has not gone down; it has gone up.
    I don't think the answer is to slow the economy down more, drive 
unemployment up more, and undermine the health of the private sector. 
The answer is to invest and grow this economy. That's what works in 
other countries, and that's what will work here.

[[Page 1855]]

    Mr. Lehrer. As a practical matter, Mr. President, do you agree with 
the Governor when he says that the middle class--the taxes on the middle 
class--do your numbers agree that the taxes on the middle class have 
gone up during the last----
    President Bush. I think everybody is paying too much taxes. He 
refers to one tax increase. Let me remind you it was a Democratic tax 
increase. I didn't want to do it, and I went along with it. I said I 
made a mistake. If I make a mistake, I admit it. That's quite different 
than some. But I think that's the American way.
    I think everyone is paying too much. But I think this idea that you 
can go out and--then he hits me for vetoing a tax bill. Yes, I did, and 
the American taxpayer ought to be glad they have a President to stand up 
to a spending Congress. We remember what it was like when we had a 
spending President and a spending Congress and interest rates--who 
remembers that--they were 21.5 percent under Jimmy Carter, and inflation 
was 15. We don't want to go back to that. So yes, everybody's taxed too 
much, and I want to get the taxes down, but not by signing a tax bill 
that's going to raise taxes on people.
    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. President, when you said just then that you admit 
your mistakes, and you looked at Governor Clinton and said--what mistake 
is it that you want him to admit to?
    President Bush. Well, the record in Arkansas. I mean, look at it. 
And that's what we're asking America to have? Now, look, he says 
Arkansas's a poor State. They are. But in almost every category, they're 
lagging. I'll give you an example.
    He talks about all the jobs he's created in 1 or 2 years. Over the 
last 10 years since he's been Governor, they're 30 percent behind. 
They're 30 percent of the national average. On pay for teachers, on all 
these categories, Arkansas is right near the very bottom.
    You haven't heard me mention this before, but we're getting close 
now, and I think it's about time I start putting things in perspective. 
I'm going to do that. It's not dirty campaigning, because he's been 
talking about my record for half a year here, 11 months here, and so 
we've got to do that. I've got to get it in perspective.
    What's his mistake? Admit it, that Arkansas is doing very, very 
badly against any standard: environment, support for police officers, 
whatever it is.
    Mr. Lehrer. Governor, is that true?
    Governor Clinton. Mr. Bush's Bureau of Labor Statistics says that 
Arkansas ranks first in the country in the growth of new jobs this year, 
first----
    President Bush. This year.
    Governor Clinton. ----fourth in manufacturing jobs; fourth in the 
reduction of poverty; fourth in income increase. Over the last 10 years 
we've created manufacturing jobs much more rapidly than the national 
average. Over the last 5 years our income has grown more rapidly than 
the national average. We are second in tax burden, the second lowest tax 
burden in the country. We have the lowest per capita State and local 
spending in the country.
    We are low-spending, low tax burden. We've dramatically increased 
investment and our jobs are growing. I wish America had that kind of 
record, and I think most people looking at us tonight would like it if 
we had more jobs and a lower spending burden on the Government.
    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. Perot, if you were sitting at home now and just 
heard this exchange about Arkansas, who would you believe?
    Mr. Perot. I grew up five blocks from Arkansas. [Laughter] Let's put 
it in perspective. It's a beautiful State. It's a fairly rural State. It 
has a population less than Chicago or Los Angeles, about the size of 
Dallas and Fort Worth combined. So I think probably we're making a 
mistake night after night after night to cast the Nation's future on a 
unit that small.
    Mr. Lehrer. Why is that a mistake?
    Mr. Perot. It's irrelevant. [Laughter]
    Mr. Lehrer. What he did as Governor of Arkansas----
    Mr. Perot. No, no, no. But you can't--I could say that I ran a small 
grocery store on the corner, therefore, I extrapolate that into the fact 
that I could run Wal-Mart. That's not true. I carefully picked an 
Arkansas company, you notice there, Governor.
    Mr. Lehrer. Governor?
    Governor Clinton. Mr. Perot, with all re-

[[Page 1856]]

spect, I think it is highly relevant, and I think that a $4 billion 
budget in State and Federal funds is not all that small. I think the 
fact that I took a State that was one of the poorest States in the 
country and had been for 153 years and tried my best to modernize its 
economy and to make the kind of changes that have generated support from 
people like the presidents of Apple Computer and Hewlett-Packard and 
some of the biggest companies in this country, 24 retired generals and 
admirals, and hundreds of business executives are highly relevant.
    And you know, I'm frankly amazed that since you grew up five blocks 
from there you would think that what goes on in that State is 
irrelevant. I think it's been pretty impressive.
    Mr. Perot. It's not----
    Governor Clinton. And the people who have jobs and educations and 
opportunities that didn't have them 10 years ago don't think it's 
irrelevant at all. They think it's highly relevant and wish the rest of 
the country----
    President Bush. I don't have a dog in this fight, but I'd like to 
get in on it.
    Governor Clinton. You think it's relevant.
    President Bush. Governor Clinton has to operate under a balanced 
budget amendment. He has to do it. That is the law. I'd like to see a 
balanced budget amendment for America, to protect the American 
taxpayers. Then that would discipline not only the executive branch but 
the spending Congress, the Congress that's been in control of one party, 
his party, for 38 years. We almost had it done. And that institution, 
the House of Representatives--everyone's yelling ``Clean House!'' One of 
the reasons is we almost had it done, and the Speaker, very able, decent 
fellow, I might add, but he twisted the arms of some of the sponsors of 
that legislation and had them change their vote.
    What's relevant here is that tool, that discipline that he has to 
live by in Arkansas. And I'd like it for the American people. I want the 
line-item veto. I want a check-off so if the Congress can't do it, let 
people check off their income tax, 10 percent of it, to compel the 
Government to cut spending. If they can't do it, if the Congress can't 
do it, let them then have to do it across the board. That's what we call 
a sequester. That's the discipline we need. And I'm working for that to 
protect the American taxpayer against the big spenders.

Leadership

    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. President, let's move to some of the leadership 
concerns that have been voiced about you. They relate to something you 
said in your closing statement in Richmond the other night about the 
President being the manager of crises, and that relates to an earlier 
criticism that you began to focus on the economy, on health care, on 
racial divisions in this country only after they became crises. Is that 
a fair criticism?
    President Bush. Jim, I don't think that's a fair shot. I hear it. I 
hear it echoed by political opponents, but I don't think it's fair. I 
think we've been fighting from day one to do something about the inner 
cities. I'm for enterprise zones. I have had it in every single proposal 
I've sent to the Congress. Now we hear a lot of talk, ``Oh, well, we all 
want enterprise zones.'' Yet the House and the Senate can't send it down 
without loading it up with a lot of these Christmas tree ornaments they 
put on the legislation.
    I don't think in racial harmony that I'm a laggard on that. I've 
been speaking out since day one. We've gotten the Americans for 
Disabilities Act, which I think is one of the foremost pieces of civil 
rights legislation. And yes, it took me to veto two civil rights quota 
bills, because I don't believe in quotas, and I don't think the American 
people believe in quotas. I beat back the Congress on that, and then we 
passed a decent civil rights bill that offers guarantees against 
discrimination in employment, and that is good. I've spoken out over and 
over again against anti-Semitism and racism, and I think my record as a 
Member of Congress speaks for itself on that.
    What was the other part of it?
    Mr. Lehrer. Well, it's just that--you've spoken to it, I mean, but 
the idea--not so much in specifics----
    President Bush. Yes.
    Mr. Lehrer. ----but that it has to be a crisis before it gets your 
attention.

[[Page 1857]]

    President Bush. I don't think that's true at all. I don't think 
that's true. But, you know, let others fire away on it.
    Mr. Lehrer. Do you think that's true, Mr. Perot?
    Mr. Perot. I'd like to just talk about issues, and so----
    Mr. Lehrer. You don't think this is an issue?
    Mr. Perot. Well, no. But the point is that's a subjective thing. The 
subjective thing is when does President Bush react. It would be very 
difficult for me to answer that in any short period of time.
    Mr. Lehrer. Well, then, I'll phrase it differently then. He said the 
other night in his closing words in Richmond that one of the key things 
that he believes the American people should decide among the three of 
you, is who they want in charge if this country gets to a crisis. Now, 
that's what he said. And the rap on the President is that it's only 
crisis time that he focuses on some of these things. So my question to 
you--we're going to talk about you in a minute.
    Mr. Perot. I thought you'd forgotten I was here. [Laughter]
    Mr. Lehrer. No, no, no. No, no. But my question to you is--so, if 
you have nothing to say about it, fine. I'll go to Governor Clinton. 
But----
    Mr. Perot. I will let the American people decide that. I would 
rather not critique the two candidates.
    Mr. Lehrer. All right.
    Governor, what do you think?
    Governor Clinton. The only thing I would say about that is I think 
that on the economy, Mr. Bush said for a long time there was no 
recession and then said it would be better to do nothing than to have a 
compromise effort with the Congress. He really didn't have a new 
economic program until over 1,300 days into his Presidency and not all 
of his health care initiative has been presented to the Congress even 
now.
    I think it's important to elect a President who is committed to 
getting this economy going again and who realizes we have to abandon 
trickle-down economics and put the American people first again and who 
will send programs to the Congress in the first 100 days to deal with 
the critical issues that America's crying out for leadership on: jobs, 
incomes, the health care crisis, the need to control the economy. Those 
things deserve to be dealt with from day one. I will deal with them from 
day one. They will be my first priority, not my election year concerns.
    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. President.
    President Bush. Well, I think you're overlooking that we have had 
major accomplishments in the first term. But if you're talking about 
protecting the taxpayer against his friends in the United States 
Congress, go back to what it was like when you had a Democratic 
President and a Democratic Congress. You don't have to go back to 
Herbert Hoover. Go back to Jimmy Carter. Interest rates were 21 percent. 
Inflation was 15 percent. The ``misery index,'' unemployment, inflation 
added together, it was invented by the Democrats, went right through the 
roof. We've cut it in half, and all you hear about is how bad things 
are.
    You know, you remember the question, ``Are you better off?'' Well, 
is a homebuyer better off who can refinance the home because interest 
rates are down? Is a senior citizen better off because inflation is not 
wiping out their family savings? I think they are. Is the guy out of 
work better off? Of course he's not. But he's not going to be better off 
if we grow the Government, if we invest, as Governor Clinton says, 
invest in more Government.
    You've got to free up the private sector. You've got to let small 
business have more incentives. For 3 months--three quarters I've been 
fighting, three quarters, been fighting to get the Congress to pass some 
incentives for small business, capital gains, investment tax allowance, 
credit for first-time homebuyers, and it's blocked by the Congress. Then 
if a little of it comes my way, they load it up with Christmas trees and 
tax increases. And I have to stand up in favor of the taxpayer.

Staying the Course

    Mr. Lehrer. We have to talk about Ross Perot now, or he'll get me, 
I'm sure.
    Mr. Perot, on this issue that I have raised at the very beginning 
and we've been talking about, which is leadership as President of the 
United States, the concerns--my

[[Page 1858]]

reading of it, at least--my concerns about you, as expressed by folks in 
the polls and other places, it goes like this: You've got a problem with 
General Motors. You took over $750 million, and you left. You had a 
problem in the spring and summer about some personal hits that you took 
as a potential candidate for President of the United States, and you 
walked out. Does that say anything relevant to how you would function as 
President of the United States?
    Mr. Perot. I think the General Motors thing is very relevant. I did 
everything I could to get General Motors to face its problems in the 
mid-eighties while it was still financially strong. They just wouldn't 
do it. Everybody now knows the terrible price they're paying by waiting 
until it's obvious to the brain dead that they have problems. [Laughter]
    Now, hundreds, thousands of good, decent people, whole cities up 
here in this State are adversely impacted because they would not move in 
a timely way. Our Government is at that point now. The thing that I am 
in this race for is to tap the American people on the shoulder and to 
say to every single one of you: Fix it while we're still relatively 
strong. If you have a heart problem, you don't wait until the heart 
attack to address it.
    So the General Motors experience is relevant. At the point when I 
could not get them to address those problems, I had created so much 
stress in the board, who wanted just to keep the Lawrence Welk music 
going, that they asked to buy my remaining shares. I sold them my 
remaining shares. They went their way; I went my way, because it was 
obvious we had a complete disagreement about what should be done with 
the company.
    But let's take my life in perspective. Again and again on complex, 
difficult tasks, I have stayed the course. When I was asked by our 
Government to do the POW project, within a year the Vietnamese had sent 
people into Canada to make arrangements to have me and my family killed. 
And I had five small children. And my family and I decided we would stay 
the course, and we lived with that problem for 3 years.
    Then I got into the Texans' war on drugs program, and the big-time 
drug dealers got all upset. Then when I had two people imprisoned in 
Iran, I could have left them there. I could have rationalized it. We 
went over, we got them out, and we brought them back home. And since 
then, for years, I have lived with the burden of the Middle East, where 
it's eye-for-an-eye and tooth-for-a-tooth country, in terms of their 
unhappiness with the fact that I was successful in that effort.
    Again and again and again, in the middle of the night, 2 or 3 
o'clock in the morning, my Government has called me to take 
extraordinary steps for Americans in distress. And again and again and 
again, I have responded. And I didn't wilt, and I didn't quit.
    Now, what happened in July we've covered again and again and again. 
But I think in terms of the American people's concern about my 
commitment--and I'm here tonight, folks. I've never quit supporting you 
as you put me on the ballot in the other 26 States. When you asked me to 
come back in, I came back in. And talk about not quitting, I'm spending 
my money on this campaign. The two parties are spending your money, 
taxpayer money. I've put my wallet on the table for you and your 
children. Over $60 million at least will go into this campaign to leave 
the American dream to you and your children, to get this country 
straightened out, because if anybody owes it to you, I do. I've lived 
the American dream. I'd like for your children to be able to live it, 
too.
    Mr. Lehrer. Governor, do you have a response to the staying the 
course question about Mr. Perot?
    Governor Clinton. I don't have any criticism of Mr. Perot. I think 
what I'd like to talk about a minute is, since you asked him the 
question, was the General Motors issue. I don't think there's any 
question that the automobile executives made some errors in the 1980's, 
but I also think we should look at how much productivity has increased 
lately, how much labor has done to increase productivity, and how much 
management has done. We're still losing a lot of auto jobs, in my 
judgment, because we don't have a national economic strategy that would 
build the industrial base of this coun-

[[Page 1859]]

try.
    Just today, I met with the presidents and the vice presidents of the 
Willow Run union near here. They both said they were Vietnam veterans 
supporting me because I had an economic program that put them back to 
work. We need an investment incentive to modernize plant and equipment. 
We've got to control the health care costs for those people. Otherwise 
we can't keep the manufacturing jobs here. We need a tough trade policy 
that is fair, that insists on open markets in return for open markets. 
We ought to have a strategy that will build the economic and industrial 
base.
    So I think Mr. Perot was right in questioning the management 
practices. But they didn't have much of a partner in Government here as 
compared with the policies the Germans and the Japanese followed. I 
believe we can do better. That's one of the things I want to change. I 
know that we can grow manufacturing jobs. We did it in my State, and we 
can do it nationally.

CAFE Standards

    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. President, do you have a response?
    President Bush. To this?
    Mr. Lehrer. Yes.
    President Bush. Well, I wondered when Governor Clinton was talking 
to the autoworkers whether he talked about his and Senator Gore's 
favoring CAFE standards, those are fuel efficiency standards, of 40 
miles per gallon. That would break the auto industry and throw a lot of 
people out of work.
    As regarding Mr. Perot, I take back something I said about him. I 
once said in a frivolous moment when he got out of the race, if you 
can't stand the heat, buy an air conditioning company. I take it back 
because I think he said he made a mistake. The thing I find is if I make 
a mistake, I admit it. I've never heard Governor Clinton make a mistake.
    But one mistake he's made is fuel efficiency standards at 40 to 45 
miles per gallon will throw many autoworkers out of work, and you can't 
have it both ways. There's a pattern here of appealing to the 
autoworkers and then trying to appeal to the spotted owl crowd or the 
extremes in the environmental movement. You can't do it as President. 
You can't have a pattern of one side of the issue one day and another 
the next.
    So my argument is not with Ross Perot; it is more with Governor 
Clinton.
    Mr. Lehrer. Governor, what about that charge that you want it both 
ways on this issue?
    Governor Clinton. Let's just talk about the CAFE standards.
    Mr. Lehrer. All right.
    Governor Clinton. That's the fuel efficiency standards. They're now 
27.5 miles per gallon per automobile fleet. I never said, and I defy you 
to find where I said--I gave an extensive environment speech in April. I 
said that we ought to have a goal of raising the fuel efficiency 
standards to 40 miles a gallon. I think that should be a goal. I never 
said we should write it into law if there is evidence that that goal 
cannot be achieved. The National Science Foundation did a study which 
said it would be difficult for us to reach fuel efficiency standards in 
excess of 37 miles per gallon by the year 2000.
    I think we should try to raise the fuel efficiency. And let me say 
this: I think we ought to have incentives to do it. I think we ought to 
push to do it. That doesn't mean we have to write it into the law.
    Look, I am a job creator, not a job destroyer. It is the Bush 
administration that has had no new jobs in the private sector in the 
last 4 years. In my State we're leading the country in private sector 
job growth. But it is good for America to improve fuel efficiency.
    We also ought to convert more vehicles to compressed natural gas. 
That's another way to improve the environment.

NAFTA

    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. Perot, based on your experience at General Motors, 
where do you come down on this? This has been thrown about, back and 
forth during this campaign from the very beginning about jobs and CAFE 
standards.
    Mr. Perot. Well, everybody's nibbling around the edges. 
Let's go to the center of the bull's eye to the core problem. Believe 
me, everybody on the factory floor all over

[[Page 1860]]

this country knows it. You implement that NAFTA, the Mexican trade 
agreement, where they pay people $1 an hour, have no health care, no 
retirement, no pollution controls, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and 
you're going to hear a giant sucking sound of jobs being pulled out of 
this country right at a time when we need the tax base to pay the debt 
and pay down the interest on the debt and get our house back in order. 
We have got to proceed very carefully on that.
    See, there's a lot I don't understand. I do understand business. I 
do understand creating jobs. I do understand how to make things work. 
And I've got a long history of doing that. Now, if you want to go to the 
core problem that faces everybody in manufacturing in this country, it's 
that agreement that's about to be put into practice.
    But here, very simply, everybody says it will create jobs. Yes, it 
will create bubble jobs. Now, watch this. Listen very carefully to this: 
One-time surge while we build factories and ship machine tools and 
equipment down there. Then year after year for decades they will have 
jobs. And I finally thought I didn't understand it. I called all the 
experts, and they said, ``Oh, it will be disruptive for 12 to 15 
years.'' We haven't got 12 days, folks. We cannot lose those jobs. They 
were saying Mexican jobs will eventually come to $7.50 an hour and ours 
will eventually go down to $7.50 an hour. It makes you feel real good to 
hear that, right?
    Let's think it through, here. Let's be careful. I'm for free trade 
philosophically, but I have studied these trade agreements until the 
world has gone flat, and we don't have good trade agreements across the 
world. I hope we'll have a chance to get into that tonight, because I 
can get right to the center of the bull's eye and tell you why we're 
losing whole industries in this country. Excuse me.
    Mr. Lehrer. Just for the record, though, Mr. Perot, I take it then 
for your answer you do not have a position on whether or not enforcing 
the CAFE standards will cost jobs in the auto industry.
    Mr. Perot. Oh, no. It will cost jobs. But that's not--let me say 
this: I'd rather, if you gave me two bad choices----
    Mr. Lehrer. Okay.
    Mr. Perot. I'd rather have some jobs left here than just see 
everything head south, see?
    Mr. Lehrer. So that means no--[laughter]--in other words, you agree 
with President Bush, is that right?
    Mr. Perot. No, I'm saying our principal need now is to stabilize the 
tax base, which is the job base, and create a growing, dynamic base. 
Now, please, folks, if you don't hear anything else I say, remember 
millions of people at work are our tax base. One quick point: If you 
confiscate the Forbes 400 wealth, take it all, you cannot balance the 
budget this year. Kind of gets your head straight about where the taxes 
year-in and year-out have got to come from. Millions and millions of 
people at work.
    Mr. Lehrer. I wanted--yes, sir.
    President Bush. Well, I'm caught in the middle of NAFTA. Ross says, 
with great conviction, he opposes the North American free trade 
agreement. I am for the North American free trade agreement. My problem 
with Governor Clinton, once again, is that one time he's going to make 
up his mind, he will see some merit in it. But then he sees a lot of 
things wrong with it. And then the other day, he says he's for it; 
however, then we've got to pass other legislation. When you're President 
of the United States, you cannot have this pattern of saying, ``Well, 
I'm for it, but I'm on the other side of it.'' And it's true on this, 
and it's true on CAFE.
    Look, if Ross were right and we get a free trade agreement with 
Mexico, why wouldn't they have gone down there now? You have a 
differential in wages right now. I just have an honest philosophical 
difference. I think free trade is going to expand our job opportunity. I 
think it is exports that have saved us when we're in a global slowdown, 
a connected, global slowdown, a recession in some countries. It's free 
trade, fair trade that needs to be our hallmark, and we need more free 
trade agreements, not fewer.
    Mr. Lehrer. Governor, a quick answer on trade, and I want to go on 
to something else.
    Governor Clinton. I'd like to respond to that. You know, Mr. Bush 
was very grateful

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when I was among the Democrats who said he ought to have the authority 
to negotiate an agreement with Mexico. Neither I nor anybody else, as 
far as I know, agreed to give him our proxy to say that whatever he did 
was fine for the workers of this country and for the interests of this 
country.
    I am the one who is in the middle on this. Mr. Perot says it's a bad 
deal. Mr. Bush says it's a hunky-dory deal. I say, on balance, it does 
more good than harm if we could get some protection for the environment 
so that the Mexicans have to follow their own environmental standards, 
their own labor law standards, and if we have a genuine commitment to 
reeducate and retrain the American workers who lose their jobs and 
reinvest in this economy.
    I have a realistic approach to trade. I want more trade. I know 
there are some good things in that agreement, but it can sure be made 
better.
    Let me just point out, just today in the Los Angeles Times, Clyde 
Prestowitz, who was one of President Reagan's leading trade advisers, 
and a lifelong conservative Republican, endorsed my candidacy because he 
knows that I'll have a free and fair trade policy, a hard-headed 
realistic policy, and not get caught up in rubber-stamping everything 
the Bush administration did. If I wanted to do that, why would I run for 
President, Jim? Anybody else can run the middle class down and run the 
economy in a ditch. I want to change it.
    President Bush. I think he made my case. On the one hand, it's a 
good deal, but on the other hand, I'd make it better. You can't do that 
as President. You can't do it on the war, where he says, ``Well, I was 
with the minority, but I guess I would have voted with the majority.''
    This is my point tonight: We're talking about 2 weeks from now 
you've got to decide who is going to be President. And there is this 
pattern that has plagued him in the primaries and now about trying to 
have it both ways on all these issues. You can't do that. If you make a 
mistake, say you made a mistake and go on about your business, trying to 
serve the American people.
    Right now we heard it. Ross is against it. I am for it. He says, 
``On the one hand, I'm for it, and on the other hand, I may be against 
it.''
    Mr. Lehrer. Governor----
    Governor Clinton. That's what's wrong with Mr. Bush. His whole deal 
is, you've got to be for it or against it, and you can't make it better. 
I believe we can be better. I think the American people are sick and 
tired of either-or solutions, people being pushed in the corner, 
polarized to extremes. I think they want somebody with common sense, who 
can do what's best for the American people. I'd be happy to discuss 
these other issues, but I can't believe he is accusing me of getting on 
both sides.
    He said trickle-down economics was voodoo economics. Now, he's its 
biggest practitioner. Let me just say----
    President Bush. I've always said trickle-down Government is bad.
    Governor Clinton. I could run this string out a long time, but 
remember this, Jim: Those 209 Americans last Thursday night in Richmond 
told us they wanted us to stop talking about each other and start 
talking about Americans and their problems and their promises. I think 
we ought to get back to that. I'll be glad to answer any question you 
have, but this election ought to be about the American people.
    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. Perot?
    Mr. Perot. Is there an equal time rule here tonight?
    President Bush. Yes.
    Mr. Perot. Or do you just keep lunging in at will? I thought we were 
going to have equal time, but maybe I just have to interrupt the other 
two. Is that the way it works this----
    Mr. Lehrer.  No. Mr. Perot, you're doing fine. Go ahead. Whatever 
you want to say, say it.

Foreign Lobbyists

    Mr. Perot. Now that we've talked all around the problem about free 
trade, let's go again to the center of the bull's eye.
    Mr. Lehrer. Wait a minute. I was going to ask--I thought you wanted 
to respond to what we were talking about.
    Mr. Perot. I do. I do. I just want to make--these foreign lobbyists, 
this whole thing. Our country has sold out to foreign lobbyists. We 
don't have free trade. Both

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parties have foreign lobbyists on leave in key roles in their campaigns. 
If there's anything more unwise than that, I don't know what it is. 
Every debate, I bring this up, and nobody ever addresses it.
    I would like for them to look you in the eye and tell you why they 
have people representing foreign countries working on their campaigns. 
And you know, you've seen the list; I've seen the list. We won't go into 
the names. But no wonder they--if I had those people around me all day 
every day telling me it was fair and free, I might believe it. But if I 
look at the facts as a businessman, it's so tilted. The first thing you 
ought to do is just say, ``Guys, if you like these deals so well, we'll 
give you the deal you gave us.'' Now, Japanese couldn't unload the cars 
in this country if they had the same restrictions we had, and on and on 
and on and on and on.
    I suggest to you that the core problem--one country spent $400 
million lobbying in 1988--our country. And it goes on and on. And you 
look at a Who's Who in these campaigns around the two candidates. 
They're foreign lobbyists taking leaves. What do you think they're going 
to do when the campaign's over? Go back to work at 30,000 bucks a month 
representing some other country. I don't believe that's in the American 
people's interest.
    I don't have a one of them, and I haven't taken a penny of foreign 
money, and I never will.
    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. President, how do you respond to that? Mr. Perot has 
made that charge several times, the fact that you have people working in 
your campaign who are paid foreign lobbyists.
    President Bush. Most people that are lobbying are lobbying the 
Congress. I don't think there's anything wrong with an honest person who 
happens to represent an interest of another country for making his case. 
That's the American way. What you're assuming is that that makes the 
recipient of the lobbying corrupt or the lobbyists themselves corrupt. I 
don't agree with that.
    But if I found somebody that had a conflict of interest that would 
try to illegally do something as a foreign registered lobby, the laws 
cover this. I don't know why--I've never understood quite why Mr. Perot 
was so upset about it, because one of the guys he used to have working 
for him, I believe, had foreign accounts. Could be wrong, but I think 
so.
    Mr. Perot. Soon as I found it out, he went out the door, too.
    President Bush. Well, I think you've got to look at the integrity 
and the honor of the people that are being lobbied and those that are 
lobbyists. The laws protect the American taxpayer in this regard. If the 
laws are violated so much--but to suggest if somebody represents a 
foreign country on anything, that makes him corrupt or against the 
taxpayer, I don't agree with it.
    Mr. Perot. One quick relevant specific. We're getting ready to 
dismantle the airlines industry in our country, and none of you know it. 
I doubt, in all candor, if the President knows it. But this deal that 
we're doing with BAC and USAir and KLM and Northwest--now, guess who is 
on the President's campaign big time? A guy from Northwest. This deal is 
terribly destructive to the U.S. airline industry. One of the largest 
industries in the world is the travel and tourist business. We won't be 
making airplanes in this country 10 years from now if we let deals like 
this go through.
    If the press has any interest tonight, I'll detail it to you. I 
won't take 10 minutes tonight; all these things take a few minutes. But 
that's happening as we sit here today. We hammerlock the American 
companies, American Airlines, Delta, the last few great we have, because 
we're trying to do this deal with these two European companies. Never 
forget, they've got Airbus over there, and it's a government-owned, 
privately owned consortium across Europe. They're dying to get the 
commercial airline business. Japan is trying to get the commercial 
airline business. I don't think there are any villains inside Government 
on this issue, but there sure are a lot of people who don't understand 
business. And maybe you need somebody up there who understands when 
you're getting your pocket picked.
    Mr. Lehrer. Governor, I'm sorry, but that concludes my time with----
    Governor Clinton. Boy, I had a great response to that.
    Mr. Lehrer. All right. Go ahead, quickly.

[[Page 1863]]

Just very briefly.
    Governor Clinton. I think Ross is right and that we do need some 
more restrictions on lobbyists. We ought to make them disclose the 
people they've given money to when they're testifying before 
congressional committees. We ought to close the lawyers' loophole; they 
ought to have to disclose when they're really lobbying. We ought to have 
a much longer period of time, about 5 years, between the time when 
people can leave executive branch offices and then go out and start 
lobbying for foreign interest. I agree with that.
    We've wrecked the airline industry already because there's all these 
leveraged buyouts and all these terrible things that have happened to 
the airline industry. We're going to have a hard time rebuilding it. But 
the real thing we've got to have is a competitive economic strategy. 
Look what's happening to McDonnell Douglas. Even Boeing is losing market 
share because we let the Europeans spend 25 to 40 billion dollars on 
Airbus without an appropriate competitive response.
    What I want America to do is to trade more, but to compete and win 
by investing in competitive ways. And we're in real trouble on that.
    Mr. Lehrer. I'm going to be in real trouble if I don't bring out--
it's about time----
    President Bush. I promise it's less than 10 seconds.
    Mr. Lehrer. Okay.
    President Bush. I heard Governor Clinton congratulate us on one 
thing. First time he said something pleasant about this administration. 
Productivity in this country is up. It is way up. Productivity is up, 
and that's a good thing. There are many other good ones, but I was glad 
he acknowledged that.
    Mr. Perot. I've volunteered--now, look, I'm just kind of a, you 
know, cur dog here. I was put on the ballot by the people, not special 
interest, so I have to stand up for myself. Now, Jim, let me net it out. 
On the second debate, I offered, since both sides want the enterprise 
zones but can't get together, I said I'll take a few days off and go to 
Washington and hold hands with you, and we'll get it done. I'll take a 
few days off, hold hands with you, and get this airline thing 
straightened out, because that's important to this country.
    That's kind of pathetic I have to do it, and nobody's called me yet 
to come up, I might mention--[laughter]--but if they do, if they do, 
it's easy to fix. If you all want the enterprise zones, why don't we 
pass the dang thing and do it? Right?
    Mr. Lehrer. All right. Now we're going to bring in three other 
journalists to ask questions. They are Susan Rook of CNN, Gene Gibbons 
of Reuters, and Helen Thomas of United Press International.
    You thought you'd never get in here, didn't you?
    President Bush. Uh-oh.
    Mr. Lehrer. Okay, we are going to continue on the subject of 
leadership, and the first question goes to Governor Clinton for a 2-
minute answer. It will be asked by Helen Thomas. Helen?

The Draft Issue

    Helen Thomas. Governor Clinton, your credibility has come into 
question because of your different responses on the Vietnam draft. If 
you had to do it over again, would you put on the Nation's uniform? And, 
if elected, could you, in good conscience, send someone to war?
    Governor Clinton. If I had to do it over again, I might answer the 
questions a little better. You know, I had been in public life a long 
time and no one had ever questioned my role, and so I was asked a lot of 
questions about the things that happened a long time ago. I don't think 
I answered them as well as I could have.
    Going back 23 years, I don't know, Helen. I was opposed to the war. 
I couldn't help that. I felt very strongly about it, and I didn't want 
to go at the time. It's easy to say in retrospect I would have done 
something differently.
    President Lincoln opposed the war, and there were people who said 
maybe he shouldn't be President. But I think he made us a pretty good 
President in wartime. We've got a lot of other Presidents who didn't 
wear their country's uniform and had to order our young soldiers into 
battle, including President Wilson and President Roosevelt. So the 
answer is, I could do that. I wouldn't relish doing it, but I wouldn't

[[Page 1864]]

shrink from it.
    I think that the President has to be prepared to use the power of 
the Nation when our vital interests are threatened, when our treaty 
commitments are at stake, when we know that something has to be done 
that is in the national interest. And that is a part of being President. 
Could I do it? Yes, I could.
    Mr. Lehrer. A reminder now, we're back on the St. Louis rules, which 
means that the Governor had his answer, and then each of you will have 
one minute to respond.
    Mr. President.
    President Bush. Well, I've expressed my heartfelt difference with 
Governor Clinton on organizing demonstrations while in a foreign land 
against your country when young ghetto kids have been drafted and are 
dying.
    My argument with him on--the question was about the draft is that 
there is this same pattern. In New Hampshire, Senator Kerry said you 
ought to level, you ought to tell the truth about it. And April 17th, he 
said he'd bring out all the records on the draft. They have not been 
forthcoming. He got a deferment, or he didn't. He got a notice, or he 
didn't. I think it's this pattern that troubles me more than the draft. 
A lot of decent, honorable people felt as he did on the draft. But it is 
this pattern.
    And again, you might be able to make amendments all the time, 
Governor, but as President, you can't be on all these different sides, 
and you can't have this pattern of saying, well, I did this, or I 
didn't. Then the facts come out, and you change it. That's my big 
difference with him on the draft. It wasn't failing to serve.
    Mr. Lehrer. Your minute is up, sir.
    Mr. Perot, one minute.
    Mr. Perot. I've spent my whole adult life very close to the 
military; feel very strongly about the people who go into battle for our 
country; appreciate their idealism, their sacrifices; appreciate the 
sacrifices their families make. That's been displayed again and again in 
a very tangible way.
    I look on this as history. I don't look on it, personally, as 
relevant. I consider it really a waste of time tonight when you consider 
the issues that face our country right now.
    Mr. Lehrer. All right. The next question goes to President Bush, and 
Gene Gibbons will ask it.

1990 Budget Agreement

    Gene Gibbons. Mr. President, you keep saying that you made a mistake 
in agreeing to a tax increase to get the 1990 budget deal with Congress. 
But if you hadn't gotten that deal you would have either had to get 
repeal of the Gramm-Rudman deficit control act or cut defense spending 
drastically at a time when the country was building up for the Gulf war 
and decimate domestic discretionary spending, including such things as 
air traffic control. If you had it to do all over again, sir, which of 
those alternatives would you choose?
    President Bush. I wouldn't have taken any of the alternatives. I 
believe I made a mistake. I did it for the very reasons you say. There 
was one good thing that came out of that budget agreement, and that is 
we put a cap on discretionary spending. One-third of the President's 
budget is at the President's discretion, or really, the Congress', since 
they appropriate every dime and tell the President how to spend every 
dime. We've put a cap on the growth of all that spending, and that's 
good. And that's helped. But I was wrong because I thought the tax 
compromise, going along with one Democratic tax increase, would help the 
economy. I see no evidence that it has done it.
    So what would I have done, what should I have done? I should have 
held out for a better deal that would have protected the taxpayer and 
not ended up doing what we had to do or what I thought at the time would 
help.
    So I made a mistake. You know, the difference, I think, is that I 
knew at the time I was going to take a lot of political flak. I knew 
we'd have somebody out there yelling, ``Read my lips.'' And I did it 
because I thought it was right. And I made a mistake. That's quite 
different than taking a position where you know it's best for you. That 
wasn't best for me, and I knew it in the very beginning. I thought it 
would be better for the country than it was. So there we are.
    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. Perot, one minute.
    Mr. Perot. The 101 in leadership is be

[[Page 1865]]

accountable for what you do. Let's go back to the tax and budget summit 
briefly. Nobody ever told the American people that we increased spending 
$1.83 for every dollar of taxes raised. That's absolutely 
unconscionable. Both parties carry a huge blame for that on their 
shoulders. This was not a way to pay on the deficit. This was a trick on 
the American people. That's not leadership.
    Let's go back in terms of accepting responsibilities for your 
actions. To create Saddam Hussein over a 10-year period, using billions 
of dollars of U.S. taxpayer money, step up to the plate and say it was a 
mistake. To create Noriega using taxpayer money, step up to the plate 
and say it was a mistake. If you can't get your act together to pick him 
up one day when a Panamanian major has kidnaped him, a special forces 
team is 400 yards away and it's a stroll across the park to get him, and 
if you can't get your act together, at least pick up the Panamanian 
major who they then killed, step up to the plate and admit it was a 
mistake. That's leadership, folks.
    Now, leaders will always make mistakes. And I'm not aiming at any 
one person here. I'm aiming at our Government. Nobody takes 
responsibility for anything. We've got to change that.
    Mr. Lehrer. I'll take responsibility for saying your time is up.
    Mr. Perot. I'm watching the light.
    Mr. Lehrer. All right.
    Governor Clinton, one minute, sir.
    Governor Clinton. The mistake that was made was making the ``read my 
lips'' promise in the first place just to get elected, knowing what the 
size of the deficit was, knowing there was no plan to control health 
care costs, and knowing that we did not have a strategy to get real 
economic growth back into this economy. The choices were not good then.
    I think at the time the mistake that was made was signing off on the 
deal late on Saturday night in the middle of the night. That's just what 
the President did when he vetoed the family leave act. I think what he 
should have done is gone before the American people on the front end and 
said, ``Listen, I made a commitment, and it was wrong. I made a mistake 
because I couldn't have foreseen these circumstances. And this is the 
best deal we can work out at the time.''
    He said it was in the public interest at the time, and most 
everybody who was involved in it, I guess, thought it was. The real 
mistake was the ``read my lips'' promise in the first place. You just 
can't promise something like that just to get elected if you know 
there's a good chance that circumstances may overtake you.
    Mr. Lehrer. All right, Mr. Perot, the question is for you. You have 
a 2-minute answer, and it will be asked by Susan Rook.

Leadership

    Susan Rook. Mr. Perot, you've talked about going to Washington to do 
what the people who run this country want you to do. But it is the 
President's duty to lead and often lead alone. How can you lead if you 
are forever seeking consensus before you act?
    Mr. Perot. Let's talk about two different subjects. In order to 
lead, you first have to use the White House as a bully pulpit and lead. 
Then you have to develop consensus, or you can't get anything done. 
That's where we are now. We can't get anything done. How do you get 
anything done when you've got all of these political action committees, 
all of these thousands of registered lobbyists, 40,000 registered 
lobbyists, 23,000 special interest groups, and the list goes on and on 
and on, and the average citizen out here just working hard every day. 
You've got to go to the people. I just love the fact that everybody, 
particularly in the media, goes bonkers over the town hall. I guess it's 
because you will lose your right to tell them what to think. [Laughter] 
The point is, they'll get to decide what to think.
    President Bush. Hey, you've got something there.
    Mr. Perot. I love the fact that people will listen to a guy with a 
bad accent and a poor presentation manner talking about flip charts for 
30 minutes, because they want the details. See, all the folks up there 
at the top said, people, ``The attention span of the American people is 
no more than 5 minutes. They won't watch it.'' They're thirsty for it.

[[Page 1866]]

    You want to have a new program in this country? If you get 
grassroots America excited about it and if they tap Congress on the 
shoulder and say, ``Do it, Charlie,'' it will happen. That's a whole lot 
different from these fellows running up and down the halls whispering in 
their ears now and promising campaign funds for the next election if 
they do it.
    Now, I think that's going back to where we started. That's having a 
Government from the people. I think that's the essence of leadership, 
rather than cutting deals in dark rooms in Washington.
    Mr. Lehrer. Governor Clinton, one minute.
    Governor Clinton. Well, I believe in the town hall meetings. They 
started with my campaign in New Hampshire. I think Ross Perot has done a 
good job in having them. And I, as you know, pushed for the debate to 
include 209 American citizens who were part of it in Richmond a few days 
ago. I've done a lot of them, and I'll continue to do them as President.
    But I'd also like to point out that I haven't been part of what 
we're criticizing in Washington tonight. Of the three of us, I have 
balanced a government budget 12 times. I have offered and passed 
campaign finance reform; offered, pushed for, and passed in public 
referendum lobbyist restrictions; done the kinds of things you have to 
do to get legislators together, not only to establish consensus but to 
challenge them to change. In 12 years as Governor, I guess I've taken on 
every interest group there was in my State at one time or another to 
fight for change. It can be done. That's why I've tried to be so 
specific in this campaign: to have a mandate, if elected, so that 
Congress will know what the American people have voted for.
    Mr. Lehrer. President Bush, one minute.
    President Bush. I would like the record to show the panelists that 
Ross Perot took the first shot at the press. My favorite bumper sticker, 
though, is ``Annoy the Media. Reelect President Bush.'' [Laughter] I 
just had to work that in. Sorry, Helen. I'm going to pay for this later 
on.
    Look, you have to build a consensus, but in some things--Ross 
mentioned Saddam Hussein. Yes, we tried, and yes, we failed to bring him 
into the family of nations. He had the fourth largest army. But then 
when he moved against Kuwait I said, this will not stand. And it's hard 
to build a consensus. We went to the U.N. We made historic resolutions 
up there. The whole world was united. Our Congress was dragging its 
feet. Governor Clinton said, ``Well, I might have been with the 
minority, let sanctions work. But I guess I would have voted with the 
majority.''
    A President can't do that. Sometimes he has to act. In this case, 
I'm glad we did, because if we'd have let sanctions work and had tried 
to build a consensus on that, Saddam Hussein today would be in Saudi 
Arabia controlling the world's oil supply, and he would be there maybe 
with a nuclear weapon. We busted the fourth largest army, and we did it 
through leadership.
    Mr. Lehrer. All right, we're going to go on to another subject now, 
and the subject is priorities. And the first question goes to you, 
President Bush, and Susan will ask it.

Women Advisers

    Ms. Rook. President Bush, gentlemen, I acknowledge that all of you 
have women and ethnic minorities working for you and working with you. 
But when we look at the circle of the key people closest to you, your 
inner circle of advisers, we see white men only. Why, and when will that 
change?
    President Bush. You don't see Margaret Tutwiler sitting in there 
with me today?
    Ms. Rook. The key people, President Bush.
    President Bush. What?
    Ms. Rook. The key people, the people beyond the glass ceiling.
    President Bush. I happen to think she's a key person. I think our 
Cabinet members are key people. I think the woman that works with me, 
Rose Zamaria, is about as tough as a boot out there and makes some 
discipline and protects the taxpayer. Look at our Cabinet. You talk 
about somebody strong, look at Carla Hills. Look at Lynn Martin, who's 
fighting against this glass ceiling and doing a first-class job on it. 
Look at our Surgeon General, Dr. Novello. You can look all around and 
you'll see first-class, strong women.

[[Page 1867]]

    Jim Baker's a man. Yes, I plead guilty to that. [Laughter] But look 
who's around with him there. I mean, this is a little defensive on your 
part, Susan, to be honest with you. We've got a very good record 
appointing women to high positions and positions of trust. And I'm not 
defensive at all about it.
    What we've got to do is keep working, as the Labor Department is 
doing a first-class job on, to break down discrimination, to break down 
the glass ceiling. I am not apologetic at all about our record with 
women. You think about women in Government. I think about women in 
business. Why not try to help them with my small business program to 
build some incentives into the system?
    I think we're making progress here. You've got a lot of women 
running for office. As I said the other night, I hope a lot of them 
lose, because they're liberal Democrats, and we don't need more of them 
in the Senate or more of them in the House. But nevertheless, they're 
out there. And we've got some very good Republican women running. So 
we're making dramatic progress.
    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. Perot, one minute.
    Mr. Perot. Well, I've come from the computer business, and everybody 
knows women are more talented than the men. So we have a long history of 
having a lot of talented women. One of our first officers was a woman, a 
chief financial officer. She was a director. And it was so far back, it 
was considered so odd. And even though we were a tiny little company at 
the time, it made all the national magazines.
    But in terms of being influenced by women and being a minority, 
there they are right out there, my wife and my four beautiful daughters. 
And I just have one son. So he and I are surrounded by women telling us 
what to do all the time. [Laughter]

Iraq

    For the rest of my minute, I want to make a very brief comment here 
in terms of Saddam Hussein. We told him that we wouldn't get involved 
with this border dispute, and we've never revealed those papers that 
were given to Ambassador Glaspie on July 25. I suggest, in the sense of 
taking responsibility for your actions, we lay those papers on the 
table. They're not the secrets to the nuclear bomb.
    Secondly, we got upset when he took the whole thing, but to the 
ordinary American out there who doesn't know where the oilfields are in 
Kuwait, they're near the border. We told him he could take the northern 
part of Kuwait, and when he took the whole thing, we went nuts. And if 
we didn't tell him that, why won't we even let the Senate Foreign 
Relations Committee and the Senate Intelligence Committee see the 
written instructions for Ambassador Glaspie?
    President Bush. I'd like to reply on that. That gets to the national 
honor. We did not say to Saddam Hussein, Ross, ``You can take the 
northern part of Kuwait.'' That is absolutely absurd. Glaspie has 
testified----
    Mr. Perot. Where are the papers?
    President Bush. ----and Glaspie's papers have been presented to the 
United States Senate. So please----
    Mr. Perot. If you have time, go through NEXIS and LEXIS, pull all 
the old news articles. Look at what Ambassador Glaspie said all through 
the fall and what have you, and then look at what she and Kelly and all 
the others in State said at the end when they were trying to clean it 
up. And talk to any head of any of those key committees in the Senate. 
They will not let them see the written instructions given to Ambassador 
Glaspie. And I suggest that in a free society owned by the people, the 
American people ought to know what we told Ambassador Glaspie to tell 
Saddam Hussein. Because we spent a lot of money and risked lives and 
lost lives in that effort, and did not accomplish most of our 
objectives. We got Kuwait back to the Amir; but he still got his 
nuclear, his chemical, his bacteriological, and he's still over there, 
right? I'd like to see those written instructions. Sorry.
    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. President, when you--just make sure that everybody 
knows what's going on here. When you responded directly to Mr. Perot 
then----
    President Bush. Yes.
    Mr. Lehrer. ----you violated the rule, your rules. Now, I'm 
willing----
    President Bush. I apologize. When I make

[[Page 1868]]

a mistake, I say--[laughter].
    Mr. Lehrer. No, no, no. I just want to make sure that everybody 
understands. If you all want to change the rules, we can do it.
    President Bush. No, I don't. I apologize for it. But that one got 
right to the national honor.
    Mr. Lehrer. All right. Okay.
    President Bush. And I'm sorry.
    Mr. Lehrer. Okay. But Governor Clinton, you have a minute.

Women Advisers

    Governor Clinton. Susan, I don't agree that there are no women and 
minorities in important positions in my campaign. There are many. But I 
think even more relevant is my record at home. For most of my time as 
Governor, a woman was my chief of staff, an African American was my 
chief cabinet officer, an African American was my chief economic 
development officer.
    It was interesting, there was a story either today or yesterday in 
the Washington Post about my economic programs. My chief budget officer 
and my chief economic officer were both African Americans, even though 
the Post didn't mention that, which I think is a sign of progress. The 
National Women's Political Caucus gave me an award, one of their good 
guy awards, for my involvement of women in high levels of government. 
I've appointed more minorities to positions of high levels in government 
than all the Governors in the history of my State combined before me.
    So that's what I'll do as President. I don't think we've got a 
person to waste. I think I owe the American people a White House staff, 
a Cabinet, and appointments that look like America, but that meet high 
standards of excellence, and that's what I'll do.
    Mr. Lehrer. All right. The next question goes to you, Mr. Perot, for 
2 minutes. It's a 2-minute question, and Helen will ask it. Helen?

Investigations

    Ms. Thomas. Mr. Perot, what proof do you have that Saddam Hussein 
was told that he could have--do you have any actual proof, or are you 
asking for the papers? And also, I really came in with another question. 
What is this penchant you have to investigate everyone? Are those 
accusations correct, investigating your staff, investigating the leaders 
of the grassroots movement, investigating associates of your family?
    Mr. Perot. No, they're not correct. And if you look at my life for 
the first--until I got involved in this effort, I was one person. And 
then after the Republican dirty tricks group got through with me, I'm 
another person, which I consider an absolutely sick operation. And all 
of you in the press know exactly what I'm talking about. They 
investigated every single one of my children. They investigated my wife. 
They interviewed all my children's friends from childhood on. They went 
to extraordinary, sick lengths. And I just found it amusing that they 
would take two or three cases where I was involved in lawsuits and would 
engage an investigator, the lawyers would engage an investigator, which 
is common. And the only difference between me and any other businessman 
that has the range of businesses I have is I haven't had that many 
lawsuits.
    So that's just another one of those little fruit-loopy things they 
make up to try to, instead of facing issues, to try to redefine a person 
that's running against them. This goes on night and day. I will do 
everything I can, if I get up there, to make dirty tricks a thing of the 
past. One of the two groups has raised it to an art form. It's a sick 
art form.

Iraq

    Now, let's go back to Saddam Hussein. We gave Ambassador Glaspie 
written instructions. That's a fact. We've never let the Congress and 
these Foreign Relations--Senate Intelligence Committee see them. That's 
a fact.
    Ambassador Glaspie did a lot of talking, right after July the 25th, 
and that's a fact, and it saw the newspapers. You pull all of it at once 
and read it, and I did, and it's pretty clear what she and Kelly and the 
other key guys around that thing thought they were doing.
    Then, at the end of the war when they had to go testify about it, 
their stories are a total disconnect from what they said in

[[Page 1869]]

August, September, and October. So I say, this is very simple: Saddam 
Hussein released a tape, as you know, claiming it was a transcript of 
their meeting, where she said, ``We will not become involved in your 
border dispute,'' and in effect, ``You can take the northern part of the 
country.''
    We later said, ``No, that's not true.'' I said, well, this is 
simple. What were her written instructions? We guard those like the 
secrets to the atomic bomb, literally. Now, I say: Whose country is 
this? This is ours. Who will get hurt if we lay those papers on the 
table? The worst thing is, again, it's a mistake. Nobody did any of this 
with evil intent. I just object to the fact that we cover up and hide 
things, whether it's Iran-contra, Iraqgate, or you name it. It's a 
steady stream.
    Mr. Lehrer. Governor Clinton, you have one minute.
    Governor Clinton. Let's take Mr. Bush for the moment at his word. I 
mean, he's right, we don't have any evidence, at least, that our 
Government did tell Saddam Hussein he could have that part of Kuwait. 
And let's give him the credit he deserves for organizing Operation 
Desert Storm and Desert Shield. It was a remarkable event.
    But let's look at where, I think, the real mistake was made. In 
1988, when the war between Iraq and Iran ended, we knew Saddam Hussein 
was a tyrant. We had dealt with him because he was against Iran. The 
enemy of my enemy maybe is my friend.
    All right, the war is over. We know he's dropping mustard gas on his 
own people. We know he's threatened to incinerate half of Israel. 
Several Government Departments, several, had information that he was 
converting our aid to military purposes and trying to develop weapons of 
mass destruction. But in late '89, the President signed a secret policy 
saying we were going to continue to try to improve relations with him, 
and we sent him some sort of communication on the eve of his invasion of 
Kuwait that we still wanted better relations.
    So I think what was wrong--I give credit where credit is due, but 
the responsibility was in coddling Saddam Hussein when there was no 
reason to do it and when people at high levels in our Government knew he 
was trying to do things that were outrageous.
    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. President, you have a moment--a minute, I'm sorry.
    President Bush. It's awful easy when you're dealing with 90/90 
hindsight. We did try to bring Saddam Hussein into the family of 
nations. He did have the fourth largest army. All our Arab allies out 
there thought we ought to do just exactly that. When he crossed the 
line, I stood up and looked into the camera and I said, ``This 
aggression will not stand.'' We formed a historic coalition, and we 
brought him down. We destroyed the fourth largest army, and the 
battlefield was searched, and there wasn't one single iota of evidence 
that any U.S. weapons were on that battlefield. The nuclear capability 
has been searched by the United Nations, and there hasn't been one 
single scintilla of evidence that there's any U.S. technology involved 
in it.
    What you're seeing on all this Iraqgate is a bunch of people who 
were wrong on the war trying to cover their necks here and try to do a 
little revisionism. I cannot let that stand, because it isn't true. Yes, 
we had grain credits for Iraq, and there isn't any evidence that those 
grain credits were diverted into weaponry, none, none whatsoever. And so 
I just have to say it's fine. You can't say there, Governor Clinton, and 
say, ``Well, I think I have supported the minority''--let sanctions work 
or wish that it would go away--``but I would have voted with the 
majority.'' Come on, that's not leadership.
    Mr. Lehrer. The next question goes to Governor Clinton, and Gene 
Gibbons will ask it. Gene?

Banking Situation

    Mr. Gibbons. Governor, an important aspect of leadership is, of 
course, anticipating problems. During the 1988 campaign, there was 
little or no mention of the savings and loan crisis that has cost the 
American people billions and billions of dollars. Now there are 
rumblings that a commercial bank crisis is on the horizon. Is there such 
a problem, sir? If so, how bad is it, and what will it cost to clean it 
up?
    Governor Clinton. Gene, there is a problem in the sense that there 
are some prob-

[[Page 1870]]

lem banks. And on December 19th, new regulations will go into effect 
which will, in effect, give the Government the responsibility to close 
some banks that are not technically insolvent but that are plainly in 
trouble.
    On the other hand, I don't think that we have any reason to believe 
that the dimensions of this crisis are anywhere near as great as the 
savings and loan crisis. The mistake that both parties made in 
Washington with the S&L business was deregulating them without proper 
capital requirements, proper oversight and regulation, proper training 
of the executives. Many people predicted what happened, and it was a 
disaster.
    The banking system in this country is fundamentally sound, with some 
weak banks. I think that our goal ought to be, first of all, not to 
politicize it, not to frighten people; secondly, to say that we have to 
enforce the law in two ways. We don't want to overreact as the Federal 
regulators have, in my judgment, on good banks so that they've created 
credit crunches that have made our recession worse in the last couple of 
years, but we do want to act prudently with the banks that are in 
trouble.
    We also want to say that, insofar as is humanly possible, the 
banking industry itself should pay for the cost of any bank failures, 
the taxpayers should not, and that will be my policy. I believe we have 
a good, balanced approach. We can get the good banks loaning money again 
in the credit crunch, have proper regulation on the ones that are in 
trouble, and not overreact. It is a serious problem, but I don't see it 
as the kind of terrible, terrible problem that the S&L problem was.
    Mr. Lehrer. President Bush, one minute.
    President Bush. Well, I don't believe it would be appropriate for a 
President to suggest that the banking system is not sound; it is sound. 
There are some problem banks out there. But what we need is financial 
reform. We need some real financial reform, banking reform legislation. 
I have proposed that, and when I am reelected I believe one of the first 
things ought to be to press a new Congress, not beholden to the old 
ways, to pass financial reform legislation that modernizes the banking 
system, doesn't put a lot of inhibitions on it, and protects the 
depositors through keeping the FDIC sound. I just was watching some of 
the proceedings of the American Bankers Association, and I think the 
general feeling is most of the banks are sound. Certainly there's no 
comparison here between what happened to the S&L's and where the banks 
stand right now, in my view.
    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. Perot, one minute.
    Mr. Perot. Well, nobody's gotten into the real issue yet on the 
savings and loan. Again, nobody's got a business background, I guess. 
The whole problem came up in 1984. The President of the United States 
was told officially it was a $20 billion problem.
    These crooks--now, Willie Sutton would have gone to own a savings 
and loan rather than rob banks. He robbed banks because that's where the 
money is; owning a savings and loan is where the money was.
    Now, in 1984 they were told. I believe the Vice President was in 
charge of deregulation. Nobody touched that tar baby until the day after 
election in 1988, because they were flooding both parties with crooked 
PAC money. And it was, in many cases, stolen PAC money. Now, you and I 
never got a ride on a lot of these yachts and fancy things it bought, 
but you and I are paying for it. And they buried it until right after 
the election.
    Now, if you believe the Washington Post and you believe this 
extensive study that's been done, and I'm reading it, right after 
election day this year they're going to hit us with 100 banks. It'll be 
a $100 billion problem. Now, if that's true, just tell me now. I'm grown 
up. I can deal with it. I'll pay my share. But just tell me now. Don't 
bury it until after the election twice. I say that to both political 
parties. The people deserve that, since we have to pick up the tab. 
You've got the PAC money. We'll pay the tab. Just tell us.
    Mr. Lehrer. All right, Mr. Perot. The next question, we're going 
into a new round here on a category just called ``differences.'' And the 
question goes to you, Mr. Perot, and Gene will ask it. Gene?

[[Page 1871]]

Government Reform

    Mr. Gibbons. Mr. Perot, aside from the deficit, what Government 
policy or policies do you really want to do something about? What really 
sticks in your craw about conditions in this country, beside the 
deficit, that you would want to fix as President?
    Mr. Perot. The debt and the deficit. Well, if you watched my 
television show the other night, you saw it. If you watch it Thursday, 
Friday, Saturday this week, you'll get more. So, a shameless plug there, 
Mr. President. But in a nutshell, we've got to reform our Government or 
we won't get anything done. We have a Government that doesn't work. All 
these specific examples I'm giving tonight, if you had a business like 
that, they'd be leading you away and boarding up the doors. We have a 
Government that doesn't work. It's supposed to come from the people. It 
comes at the people. The people need to take their Government back.
    You've got to reform Congress. They've got to be servants to the 
people again. You've got to reform the White House. We've got to turn 
this thing around. It's a long list of specific items, and I've covered 
it again and again in print and on television. But very specifically, 
the key thing is to turn the Government back to the people and take it 
away from the special interests and have people go to Washington to 
serve.
    Who can give themselves a 23-percent pay raise anywhere in the world 
except Congress? Who would have 1,200 airplanes worth $2 billion a year 
just to fly around in? I don't have a free reserved parking place at 
National Airport. Why should my servants? I don't have an indoor 
gymnasium and an indoor tennis court, an indoor every other thing they 
can think of. I don't have a place where I can go make free TV to send 
to my constituents to try to brainwash them to elect me the next time. 
And I'm paying for all that for those guys.
    I'm going to be running an ad pretty soon that shows--they promised 
us they were going to hold the line on spending, a tax and budget 
summit--and I'm going to show how much they've increased this little 
stuff they do for themselves. It is Silly Putty, folks, and the American 
people have had enough of it.
    Step one, if I get up there, we're going to clean that up. You say, 
how can I get Congress to do that? I'll have millions of people 
shoulder-to-shoulder with me, and we will see it done warp speed, 
because it's wrong. We've turned the country upside down.
    Mr. Lehrer. Governor Clinton, you have one minute. Governor.
    Governor Clinton. I would just point out on the point Mr. Perot 
made, I agree that we need to cut spending in Congress. I've called for 
a 25-percent reduction in congressional staffs and expenditures. But the 
White House staff increased its expenditures by considerably more than 
Congress has in the last 4 years under the Bush administration, and 
Congress has actually spent $1 billion less than President Bush asked 
them to spend. Now, when you outspend Congress, you're really swinging.
    That, however, is not my only passion. The real problem in this 
country is that most people are working hard and falling further behind. 
My passion is to pass a jobs program to get incomes up with an 
investment incentive program to grow jobs in the private sector, to 
waste less public money and invest more, to control health care costs 
and provide for affordable health care for all Americans, and to make 
sure we've got the best trained work force in the world. That is my 
passion.
    We've got to get this country growing again and this economy strong 
again, or we can't bring down the deficit. Economic growth is the key to 
the future of this country.
    Mr. Lehrer. President Bush, one minute.
    President Bush. On Government reform?
    Mr. Lehrer. Sir?
    President Bush. Government reform?
    Mr. Lehrer. Yes. Well, to respond to the subject that Mr. Perot 
mentioned.
    President Bush. How about this for a Government reform policy? 
Reduce the White House staff by a third after or at the same time the 
Congress does the same thing for their staff; term limits for Members of 
the United States Congress. Give the Government back to the people. 
Let's do it that way. The President has term limits. Let's limit some of 
these guys sitting out here

[[Page 1872]]

tonight. Term limits, and then how about a balanced budget amendment to 
the Constitution? Forty-three States, more than that, States have it, I 
believe. Let's try that.
    You want to do something about all this extra spending that concerns 
Mr. Perot and me? Okay, how about a line-item veto? Forty-three 
Governors have that. Give it to the President. If the Congress isn't big 
enough to do it, let the President have a shot at this excess spending. 
A line-item veto, that means you can take a line and cut out some of the 
pork out of a meaningful bill. Governor Clinton keeps hitting me on 
vetoing legislation. Well, that's the only protection the taxpayer has 
against some of these reckless pork programs up there. I'd rather be 
able to just line it right out of there and get on about passing some 
good stuff, but leave out the garbage. Line-item veto, there's a good 
reform program for you.
    Mr. Lehrer. The next question goes to Governor Clinton. You have two 
minutes, Governor, and Susan will ask it.

Taxes

    Ms. Rook. Governor Clinton, you said that you will raise taxes on 
the rich, people with incomes of $200,000 a year or higher. A lot of 
people are saying that you will have to go lower than that, much lower. 
Will you make a pledge tonight below which--an income level that you 
will not go below? I am looking for numbers, sir, not just a concept.
    Governor Clinton. You can read my plan. My plan says that we want to 
raise marginal incomes on family incomes above $200,000 from 31 to 36 
percent; that we want to ask foreign corporations simply to pay the same 
percentage of taxes on their income that American corporations pay in 
America; that we want to use that money to provide over $100 billion in 
tax cuts for investment in new plant and equipment, for small business, 
for new technologies, and for middle class tax relief.
    Now, I can tell you this: I will not raise taxes on the middle class 
to pay for these programs. If the money does not come in there to pay 
for these programs, we will cut other Government spending, or we will 
slow down the phase-in to the programs. I am not going to raise taxes on 
the middle class to pay for these programs.
    Now, furthermore, I am not going to tell you ``Read my lips'' on 
anything because I cannot foresee what emergencies might develop in this 
country. And the President said never, never, never would he raise 
taxes, in New Jersey. Within a day, Marlin Fitzwater, his spokesman, 
said, now, that's not a promise. So I think even he has learned that you 
can't say ``Read my lips'' because you can't know what emergencies might 
come up.
    But I can tell you this: I'm not going to raise taxes on middle 
class Americans to pay for the programs I've recommended. Read my plan. 
And you know how you can trust me about that? Because you know, in the 
first debate, Mr. Bush made some news. He had just said Jim Baker was 
going to be Secretary of State, but in the first debate he said no, now 
he's going to be responsible for domestic economic policy. Well, I'll 
tell you, I'll make some news in the third debate: The person 
responsible for domestic economic policy in my administration will be 
Bill Clinton. I'm going to make those decisions, and I won't raise taxes 
in the middle class to pay for my program.
    Mr. Lehrer. President Bush, you have one minute.
    President Bush. That's what worries me, that he's going to be 
responsible. He would do for the United States what he has done for 
Arkansas. He would do for the United States what he's done to Arkansas. 
We do not want to be the lowest of the low. We are not a nation in 
decline. We are a rising nation. My problem is, I heard what he said. He 
said, ``I want to take it from the rich, raise $150 billion from the 
rich.'' To get it, to get $150 billion in new taxes, you've got to go 
down to the guy that's making $36,600. And if you want to pay for the 
rest of his plan, all the other spending programs, you're going to sock 
it to the working man.
    So when you hear ``tax the rich,'' Mr. and Mrs. America, watch your 
wallet. Lock your wallet, because he's coming right after you just like 
Jimmy Carter did, and just like you're going to get--
you're going to end up with interest rates at 21 percent, and you're 
going to have inflation going through the

[[Page 1873]]

roof. Yes, we're having tough times. But we do not need to go back to 
the failed policies of the past when you had a Democratic President and 
a spendthrift Democratic Congress.
    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. Perot.
    Governor Clinton. You permitted Mr. Bush to break the rules, he said 
to defend the honor of the country. What about the honor of my State? We 
rank first in the country in job growth. We've got the lowest spending, 
State and local, in the country and the second lowest tax burden. The 
difference between Arkansas and the United States is that we're going in 
the right direction, and this country's going in the wrong direction. 
And I have to defend the honor of my State.
    Mr. Lehrer. We've got a wash, according to my calculations. We have 
a wash. And we'll go to Mr. Perot for one minute. In other words, the 
violation of the rule; that's what I meant.
    Mr. Perot. I'm the only one that's untarnished at this point.
    Mr. Lehrer. That's right, you're clean. [Laughter]
    Mr. Perot. I'm sure I'll do it before it's over.
    The key thing here, see, we all come up with images. Images don't 
fix anything. You know, I'm starting to understand it. You stay around 
this long enough, you think about--if you talk about it in Washington, 
you think you did it. If you've been on television about it, you think 
you did it. [Laughter] What we need is people to stop talking and start 
doing.
    Now, our real problem here is they both have plans that will not 
work. The Wall Street Journal said your numbers don't add up. And you 
can take it out on charts; you look at all the studies that different 
groups have done; you go out 4, 5, 6 years: We're still drifting along 
with a huge deficit.
    So let's come back to harsh reality. Everybody said, ``Gee, Perot, 
you're tough.'' I say, well, this is not as tough as World War II; and 
it's not as tough as the Revolution. It's fair-shared sacrifice to do 
the right thing for our country and for our children. And it will be fun 
if we all work together to do it.
    Mr. Lehrer. This is the last question, and it goes to President Bush 
for a 2-minute answer. And it will be asked by Helen.

Presidential Campaign

    Ms. Thomas. Mr. President, why have you dropped so dramatically in 
the leadership polls, from the high eighties to the forties? And you 
have said you will do anything you have to do to get reelected. What can 
you do in 2 weeks to win reelection?
    President Bush. Well, I think the answer to why the drop, I think, 
has been the economy in the doldrums. Why I'll win is I think I have the 
best plan of the three of us up here to do something about it. Mine does 
not grow the Government. It does not have Government invest. It says we 
need to do better in terms of stimulating private business. We've got a 
big philosophical difference here tonight between one who thinks the 
Government can do all these things through tax and spend, and one who 
thinks it ought to go the other way.
    So I believe the answer is, I'm going to win it because I'm getting 
into focus my agenda for America's renewal, and also I think that 
Governor Clinton's had pretty much of a free ride on looking 
specifically at the Arkansas record. He keeps criticizing us, 
criticizing me; I'm the incumbent. Fine. But he's an incumbent. And 
we've got to look at all the facts. They're almost at the bottom on 
every single category. We can't do that to the American people.
    Then, Helen, I really believe where people are going to ask this 
question about trust--because I do think there's a pattern by Governor 
Clinton of saying one thing to please one group and then trying to 
please another group. I think that pattern is a dangerous thing to 
suggest would work for the Oval Office. It doesn't work that way when 
you're President. Truman is right: The buck stops there. You have to 
make decisions, even when it's against your own interest. I've done 
that. It's against my political interests to say go ahead and go along 
with the tax increase. But I did what I thought was right at the time. 
So I think people are going to be looking for trust and experience.
    Then, I mentioned it the other night, I think if there's a crisis, 
people are going to say, ``Well, George Bush has taken us

[[Page 1874]]

through some tough crises, and we trust him to do that.'' So I'll make 
the appeal on a wide array of issues.
    Also I've got a philosophical difference--I've got to watch the 
clock here--I don't think we're a declining nation. The whole world has 
had economic problems. We're doing better than a lot of the countries in 
the world. And we're going to lead the way out of this economic 
recession across this world and economic slowdown here at home.
    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. Perot, you have one minute.
    President Bush. That's why I think I'll win.
    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. Perot, you have--sorry. Excuse me, sir. Mr. Perot, 
you have one minute.
    Mr. Perot. I'm the last one, right?
    Mr. Lehrer. No. Governor Clinton has a minute after you. Then we 
have the closing statements.
    Mr. Perot. One minute after you?
    Mr. Lehrer. Right.
    Mr. Perot. I'm totally focused on the fact that we may have bank 
failures, and nobody answered it. I'm totally focused on that fact that 
we are still evading the issue of the Glaspie papers. I'm totally 
focused on the fact that we still could have enterprise zones, according 
to both parties, but we don't. So I'm still focused on gridlock, I 
guess.
    I'm also focused on the fact that isn't it a paradox that we have 
the highest productivity in our work force in the industrialized world 
and at the same time have the largest trade deficit, and at the same 
time rank behind nine other nations in what we pay our most productive 
people in the world. We're losing whole industries overseas. Now, can't 
somebody agree with me that the Government is breaking business' legs 
with these trade agreements? They're breaking business' legs in a number 
of different ways. We have an adversarial relationship that's destroying 
jobs and sending them overseas, while we have the finest workers in the 
world. Keep in mind the factory worker has nothing to do with anything 
except putting it together on the factory floor. It's our obligation to 
make sure that we give him the finest products in the world to put 
together, and we don't break his legs in the process.
    Mr. Lehrer. Governor Clinton, one minute.
    Governor Clinton. I really can't believe Mr. Bush is still trying to 
make trust an issue after ``read my lips'' and ``15 billion new jobs'' 
and embracing what he called ``voodoo economics'' and embracing an 
export enhancing program for farmers he threatened to veto and going all 
around the country giving out money and programs that he once opposed. 
But the main thing is he still didn't get it, from what he said the 
other night to that fine woman on our program, the 209 people in 
Richmond. They don't want us talking about each other. They want us to 
talk about the problems of this country.
    I don't think he'll be reelected because trickle-down economics is a 
failure, and he's offering more of it. And what he's saying about my 
program is just not true. Look at the Republicans that have endorsed me, 
high-tech executives in northern California. Look at the 24 generals and 
admirals, retired, who have endorsed me, including the deputy commander 
of Desert Storm. Look at Sarah Brady, Jim Brady's wife, President 
Reagan's Press Secretary, who endorsed me because he knuckled under to 
the NRA and wouldn't fight for the Brady bill. We've got a broad-based 
coalition that goes beyond party, because I am going to change this 
country and make it better with the help of the American people.
    Mr. Lehrer. All right. That was the final question and answer, and 
we now go to the closing statements. Each candidate will have up to 2 
minutes. The order was determined by a drawing. Governor Clinton, you 
are first. Governor.

Closing Statements

    Governor Clinton. First I'd like to thank the Commission and my 
opponents for participating in these debates and making them possible. I 
think the real winners of the debates were the American people. I was 
especially moved in Richmond a few days ago when 209 of our fellow 
citizens got to ask us questions. They went a long way toward reclaiming 
this election for the

[[Page 1875]]

American people and taking their country back.
    I want to say, since this is the last time I'll be on a platform 
with my opponents, that even though I disagree with Mr. Perot on how 
fast we can reduce the deficit and how much we can increase taxes on the 
middle class, I really respect what he's done in this campaign to bring 
the issue of deficit reduction to our attention. I'd like to say to Mr. 
Bush, even though I've got profound differences with him, I do honor his 
service to our country. I appreciate his efforts, and I wish him well. I 
just believe it's time to change.
    I offer a new approach. It's not trickle-down economics; it's been 
tried for 12 years, and it's failed. More people are working harder for 
less, 100,000 people a month losing their health insurance, unemployment 
going up, our economy slowing down. We can do better. And it's not tax-
and-spend economics. It's invest and grow, put our people first, control 
health care costs and provide basic health care to all Americans, have 
an education system second to none, and revitalize the private economy. 
That is my commitment to you. It is a kind of change that can open up a 
whole new world of opportunities to America as we enter the last decade 
of this century and move toward the 21st century. I want a country where 
people who work hard and play by the rules are rewarded, not punished. I 
want a country where people are coming together across the lines of race 
and region and income. I know we can do better.
    It won't take miracles, and it won't happen overnight. But we can do 
much, much better if we have the courage to change. Thank you very much.
    Mr. Lehrer. President Bush, your closing statement, sir.
    President Bush. Three weeks from now--two weeks from tomorrow, 
America goes to the polls. You're going to have to decide who you want 
to lead this country to economic recovery. On jobs, that's the number 
one priority, and I believe my program for stimulating investment, 
encouraging small business, brandnew approach to education, 
strengthening the American family, and yes, creating more exports is the 
way to go. I don't believe in trickle-down Government. I don't believe 
in larger taxes and larger Government spending.
    On foreign affairs, some think it's irrelevant. I believe it's not. 
We're living in an interconnected world. The whole world is having 
economic difficulties. The U.S. is doing better than a lot. But we've 
got to do even better. If a crisis comes up, I ask: Who has the judgment 
and the experience and, yes, the character to make the right decision?
    Lastly, the other night on character, Governor Clinton said it's not 
the character of the President but ``the character of the Presidency.'' 
I couldn't disagree more. Horace Greeley said, ``The only thing that 
endures is character.'' And I think it was Justice Black who talked 
about ``Great nations, like great men, must keep their word.'' And so 
the question is: Who will safeguard this Nation? Who will safeguard our 
people and our children?
    I need your support. I ask for your vote. And may God bless the 
United States of America.
    Mr. Lehrer. Mr. Perot, your closing statement, sir.
    Mr. Perot. To the millions of fine, decent people who did the 
unthinkable and took their country back in their own hands and put me on 
the ballot, let me pledge to you that tonight is just the beginning. 
These next 2 weeks we will be going full steam ahead to make sure that 
you get a voice and that you get your country back.
    This Thursday night on ABC from 8:30 to 9, Friday night on NBC from 
8 to 8:30, and Saturday night on CBS from 8 to 8:30, we'll be down in 
the trenches, under the hood, working on fixing the old car to get it 
back on the road. [Laughter]
    Now, the question is: Can we win? Absolutely we can win, because 
it's your country. The question really is: Who do you want in to the 
White House? It's that simple. Now, you've got to stop letting these 
people tell you who to vote for. You've got to stop letting these folks 
in the press tell you you're throwing your vote away. You've got to 
start using your own head.
    Then the question is: Can we govern? I

[[Page 1876]]

love that one. The ``we'' is you and me. You bet your hat we can govern, 
because we will be in there together, and we will figure out what to do. 
You won't tolerate gridlock. You won't tolerate endless meandering and 
wandering around. You won't tolerate nonperformance. And believe me, 
anybody who knows me understands I have a very low tolerance for 
nonperformance also. Together we can get anything done.
    The President mentioned that you need the right person in a crisis. 
Well, folks, we've got one. And that crisis is a financial crisis. 
Pretty simply, who's the best qualified person up here on the stage to 
create jobs? Make your decision and vote on November the 3d. I suggest 
you might consider somebody who's created jobs.
    Second, who's the best person to manage money? I suggest you pick a 
person who's successfully managed money. Who's the best person to get 
results and not talk? Look at the record; make your decision.
    Finally, who would you give your pension fund and your savings 
account to to manage? And the last one, who would you ask to be the 
trustee of your estate and take care of your children if something 
happened to you?
    Finally, to you students up there, God bless you. I'm doing this for 
you. I want you to have the American dream. And to the American people, 
to the American people, I'm doing this because I love you. That's it. 
Thank you very much.
    Mr. Lehrer. Thank you, Mr. Perot. Thank you, Mr. President. Thank 
you, Governor Clinton, for being with us tonight and the previous 
debates. Thank you to the panel.
    The only thing that is left to be said is, from Michigan State 
University in East Lansing, I'm Jim Lehrer. Thank you, and good night.

                    Note: The debate began at 7 p.m. in Wharton Center 
                        for the Performing Arts at Michigan State 
                        University. During the debate, the following 
                        persons were referred to: Rose M. Zamaria, 
                        Deputy Assistant to the President and Director 
                        of White House Operations; April C. Glaspie, 
                        former U.S. Ambassador to Iraq; and John H. 
                        Kelly, former Assistant Secretary of State for 
                        Near Eastern and South Asian Affairs.