[Congressional Record Volume 156, Number 34 (Wednesday, March 10, 2010)]
[House]
[Pages H1306-H1313]
From the Congressional Record Online through the Government Publishing Office [www.gpo.gov]




                      THE QUESTION OF HEALTH CARE

  The SPEAKER pro tempore. Under the Speaker's announced policy of 
January 6, 2009, the gentleman from Missouri (Mr. Akin) is recognized 
for 60 minutes as the designee of the minority leader.
  Mr. AKIN. Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to join you here once again 
as we get a chance to take a look at Special Orders, and also I am 
joined by some of my distinguished colleagues. We are going to be 
looking once again at a subject that has really absorbed the attention 
of Americans now for almost 9 months, the question of health care. It 
is still before us.
  Today was a little bit of a unique day for me because the President 
came to my district in the St. Louis area, and he wanted to deliver 
speeches and tell everybody that they should vote for the health care 
bill.
  He and I have a difference of opinion on the bill. I think his 
opinion is that if people just know more about this bill, they will 
like it. My opinion is the more we have looked at it, the more that 
people have taken a look at it publicly, the uglier they think it gets 
and the more they hate it. Fortunately, the poll data seems to be on my 
side, and the more you look at the bill, the more it seems it has 
problems with it.
  We have, today, joining us some distinguished colleagues from all 
over the country. We have two doctors and an attorney, and just, I 
think, a businessman and an engineer. It almost sounds like the start 
of some sort of a joke. But this isn't a joke, unfortunately. This is a 
very serious subject, indeed.
  So I am going to recognize Dr. Broun from Georgia, a gentleman who 
has spent a lifetime practicing medicine and then got elected to 
Congress, and now he is trying to straighten things out. I am going to 
have him, followed by Dr. Fleming as well.
  So, Dr. Broun, thank you for joining us tonight. Let's talks a little 
bit about this health care bill.
  Mr. BROUN of Georgia. Well, thank you, Mr. Akin. You have been a 
stalwart friend in this fight to try to stop the government overtaking 
of the health care system. I, as a medical doctor, have been fighting 
for my patients for their economic well-being for years. I just wanted 
to come tonight and bring up a few things.
  The Wall Street Journal yesterday, there was an editorial written, 
coauthored by Scott Rasmussen, the famous pollster. The title of it is 
``Why Obama Can't Move the Health Care Numbers.'' One of the lines in 
here right at the end is basically giving the bottom line. It says most 
voters believe the current plan will harm the economy--they are right 
about that--cost more than projected--absolutely--raise the cost of 
care--without any shadow of a doubt--and would lead to higher middle 
class taxes--and that is just undoubtedly a fact.
  The American people get it. And one thing that the American people do 
get is that it is going to cost millions of Americans their jobs if 
this is put into place.
  I thank you for bringing this forward tonight so we can talk about 
jobs and health care. I look forward to this discussion as we go along.
  Mr. AKIN. I really appreciate your bringing that up. I am just 
thinking, picture yourself instead of being a doctor as being a 
salesman, and you are given an assignment that you are supposed to go 
out and sell something.
  Say you are the President and your job is to go out and make this 
case. We have three huge entitlements that are destroying the solvency 
of our country. One of them is Medicare, one of them is Medicaid, both 
methodical things, and the government is running these things and they 
are destroying the economy because they are out of control, they are 
spending so much money. So your assignment is to go out and sell people 
that we ought to have the government take over the rest of the medical 
part. That is a little counterintuitive. You could be a good salesman, 
and it is hard to make that case. We have it messed up in this and this 
area, so give us the whole thing. It takes a little bit of courage to 
even try to do that.
  Dr. Fleming, please.
  Mr. FLEMING. I want to thank the gentleman again, faithful virtually 
every week to have this leadership hour and talk about such weighty 
issues as health care.
  But to follow up on your very point, and that is today, the big 
question is why all these increases in private insurance rates. Well, 
there are several reasons, but the main reason is that private 
insurance premiums help subsidize Medicare and Medicaid. Why? Medicare 
and Medicaid underpays the providers, the gap is getting larger, and so 
providers have to make it up in order to survive in business on the 
private insurance which has to escalate in relation to that.

[[Page H1307]]

  So that is something you will not hear from Speaker Pelosi or the 
President. He wants to demonize the insurance companies. As a 
physician, I am no big friend of the insurance companies. But fair is 
fair. If we are going to fix this problem, we have got to start, in my 
opinion, by looking at cost savings. We are going to have to be real 
about and realistic about where the real costs are coming from.

  Again, you are right. Half of medicine today is under government 
control, and that is the part that is bankrupting the system.
  Mr. AKIN. That is interesting. What I think I am hearing you say is, 
as much as you want to knock the insurance companies, the fact that 
people have insurance and the insurance pays claims, in a way they are 
the ones that are helping to balance out the cost of health care, 
because Medicare and Medicaid are underpaying the actual cost of what 
it takes.
  That gets to a point, and I would like to ask you, I am going to go 
to my good friend from Texas too, Congressman Gohmert, but sometimes we 
get into the weeds a little bit too much. So let's say you get way up 
on an airplane and take a look at the health care question.
  What someone told me is, he said, Look, look at health care in 
America as two parts. The front end is the medical service we provide 
to the people who are sick in America. They said that is the best 
health care anywhere in the world. If you are a millionaire sheikh from 
Bahrain, you want to come over here to get some of that health care. So 
we have the best health care service, in terms of providers.
  What the problem is is how we pay for it that has gotten messed up, 
and I think that is a little bit to your question.
  My good friend from Texas, Congressman Gohmert.
  Mr. GOHMERT. Well, looking at the chart you have there that has the 
quote on it about reconciliation, it brings us back to what is being 
discussed. The reporters all out here in the hall have been there for 
much of the night, and they are starting to go away because apparently 
they think there is not going to be any agreement. But what people need 
to understand is what is being pushed here called reconciliation. What 
a misnomer. Reconcile? That is not what happens.
  The Senate has passed a bill, and they are not going to get 60 votes 
to do a new bill, so they are trying to push the House into passing 
exactly what the Senate did. But we have got fine, upstanding pro-
lifers like Bart Stupak and a dozen others, and they say if you are 
going to have a bill that pries tax money out of the hands of people 
who believe with all their heart, as I do, that it is immoral to kill 
unborn children, and you are going to take their money and use it to do 
that, then we can't vote for this bill.
  So what we hear being discussed is, Well, if you will just vote for 
the Senate bill that allows the government to take away taxpayer money 
and use it for abortions, then we may be able to get you an amendment 
to come back. It has to be signed into law, has to become law before 
you can amend it, but then we may be able to amend that to then put in 
the Stupak language that prevents tax dollars from being used for 
abortion.
  But the thing that our colleagues have to understand is please don't 
get roped into that. The Speaker knows how the process works. But if it 
becomes law and the bill provides for the funding of abortion, you may 
or may not get the amendment passed. It may pass through the House, but 
then the Senate has to pass it, and there is no way anyone in the House 
can guarantee what the Senate will do. Then the people who everybody, 
well-intentioned, no intention to deceive, but anyway, the bottom line 
is they end up not getting what they are promised, not because of 
deception. It just doesn't happen.
  Mr. AKIN. I would like to just run over to our good friend from 
Pennsylvania, Congressman Thompson, and I just wanted to get your 
perspective on what you are seeing. It has been almost 9 months, and 
people have been looking more and more into the details of the bill. 
The more they see it, the more they don't like it. Yet the majority 
seems to be determined, they have the pedal to the metal, they have the 
battleship at ramming speed, and they are going to just try and drive 
this thing through.
  What is your impression of where we are?
  Mr. THOMPSON of Pennsylvania. Well, first of all, I want to thank my 
good friend from Missouri for providing the leadership for this 
evening. It is just so important.
  The American people, I have to tell you, I am very proud of the 
American people on this issue. During this past 15 months, I think they 
fulfilled the responsibility that our Founders intended. Our Founders 
have to be smiling right now, because the American people have woken up 
and are paying attention and engaging on this issue.
  When it comes to health care, I think the large majority of Americans 
share the same perspective I do, and it is a perspective I developed as 
a health care professional. I started out as a therapist over 30 years 
ago, and for 28 years I was a health care manager, licensed as a 
nursing home administrator, worked in all areas of health care, in 
nonprofit community health care.
  The four principles I have always led my professional life by have 
been the same four principles that have guided me in my role working 
for the people as a Member of Congress, and it is the same principles 
that I see the people agreeing with when it comes to health care. They 
want to improve our health care system, not throw it out, not create 
some government-run system.
  My principles that I have always led my life by, and I think they are 
principles that are important in this debate, let's do what we can to 
make sure that we lower the cost of health care for all Americans. The 
bill that is coming at us at light speed from the Senate raises costs 
for most Americans. It doesn't address real cost reduction.
  The second principle for me is increasing access, improving quality, 
and making sure that we strengthen that decisionmaking relationship 
between the physician and patient. We don't need the government or a 
bureaucrat making those decisions.
  The bill that is coming at us, in particular I will just talk about 
one aspect. I started at that last principle of strengthening the 
decisionmaking relationship between the physician and the patient. This 
bill creates a health care czar, and this czar is going to have the 
ability to impose not just health care prices and controls, but that 
czar is going to dictate what kind of benefits we should get and not 
get. And just as my good friend from Texas was talking about, we will 
wind up paying for procedures, such as abortions, something that we 
would never use, that we certainly, based on my faith, would be very 
much in objection to.
  So that type of imposition of a czar making decisions, inserting 
themselves between the patient and physician, is just absolutely wrong.

                              {time}  2130

  Mr. AKIN. I appreciate your perspective on that. I bet you that has 
got to, even after all these months, has got to really bother those of 
you who are doctors. I mean you invested I don't know how many years in 
med school. I flunked fetal pig. I would never have made it. Part of 
the reason was because you wanted to treat patients. And to have some 
insurance person sticking their nose in that relationship has got to 
really rub you the wrong way. But what happens if--at least if it's the 
insurance company, you can get rid of the insurance company. But what 
happens if it's the Federal Government? That would drive me crazy.
  Congressman Broun, please.
  Mr. BROUN of Georgia. The Federal Government already sticks its nose 
in the doctor-patient relationship in Medicare-Medicaid. The insurance 
company executives do in managed care. But in my medical practice for 
the last 5 years prior to being elected to Congress, I saw Medicare 
patients, Medicaid patients, managed care patients, but they just paid 
me at the time of service. If they couldn't pay me, that was all right 
too. I've given away hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of my 
services over my medical career.
  We hear from Democrats, the President particularly, that the doctors 
are all in favor of this Obama care bill. I've got a letter here from 
the Medical Association of Georgia that was just sent to me and other 
members of the Georgia delegation that says, We oppose the Senate-
passed health care bill. They

[[Page H1308]]

list a number of things that they see as problems with the bill. Among 
these include undermining the patient-physician relationship and 
empowering the Federal Government with even greater authority. It's 
unsustainable from a financial standpoint. The Federal Government will 
have unprecedented authority to change the Medicare program through 
these new boards without Congress or the courts or anybody having any 
oversight to that. It's devoid of proven medical liability reform.
  They're concerned about many things that aren't in this bill, two of 
which are: it takes away the right to make a private contract between 
two individuals, particularly doctor and a patient or any provider and 
patient. Another one is, there's nothing to stop the sustainable growth 
rate formula that is killing physicians.
  It goes back to what you were just saying a few minutes ago, Mr. 
Akin, where doctors are being underpaid. We have this SGR, sustainable 
growth rate formula, that needs to be thrown out. But we don't do 
anything about that. What that's going to do to the American public, 
and particularly Medicare patients need to understand, if this bill is 
passed, it's going to be exceedingly difficult for a senior to find a 
doctor who's going to accept their government insurance. It's already a 
problem, but it's going to be even much more of a problem and 
exceedingly difficult because the Federal Government is going to pay a 
lower rate, and doctors just can't afford to do that.
  Mr. AKIN. So this is going to be a good deal. Everybody is going to 
have medical insurance, but you just won't have any doctor to go to 
see.
  Dr. Fleming.
  Mr. FLEMING. Well, first of all, let me say something that I think is 
not as obvious, but if you think about it, it should be very clear. 
Coverage under health care does not mean access to health care. Look at 
Cuba. In Cuba, you have universal health care, you have universal 
access, and it's all free. The problem is there is no health care in 
Cuba. They have one colonoscope for the whole country. Antibiotics, 
medications. Nonexistent. So what good is 100 percent universal 
coverage?
  Now how does that apply to us? Well, what we're really doing in 
effect with this bill is taking two big entitlements, which is 
Medicare-Medicaid. The States can't afford Medicaid. The Federal 
Government cannot afford Medicare. Medicare will run out of money in 8 
years. On top of that, we're taking out half a trillion dollars for 
Medicare, not knowing how we're going to make up for it, and then we're 
going to take the money and tax people and create a whole new 
entitlement, stacking one entitlement after another.
  Bottom line here is, there's two ways to save costs, to bend the cost 
curve down in health care. One is to have a giant system like that, and 
create bureaucrats who are going to control things and micromanage, and 
ultimately save money through long lines, a waiting list, and 
rationing. The other, the one I prefer, is a free market where we 
attack the doctor patient-relationship and we empower the patient, make 
him into a consumer, where he has clarity and transparency, where he 
has health savings accounts, for instance, and he can go and decide and 
have patient choice as to what the cost, what the providers are going 
to be, and where he can get his best value for the money.
  Mr. AKIN. You know, I just today was talking to my constituents back 
in the State of Missouri and we were having this forum. I spoke in 
pretty strong terms. I told my constituents that this bill, first of 
all, would destroy the quality of health care in America. The second 
thing it was going to do was it was going to destroy the Federal 
budget. And that if I were to put this bill on a scale of all the 
legislation I've seen since I've been in Congress--and I'm getting a 
little older; this is my tenth year--that this bill is more than twice 
as bad as the next worst bill that I've ever seen. So this bill is 
altogether in another category.
  I spoke before a group this last weekend, and I looked out and there 
were a lot of other legislators I'd served with in the State of 
Missouri. I said, We've all served in the majority, we've served in the 
minority. But I said, The last year and a half, we've served in the 
wilderness. I said, The difference of the wilderness is that I walk up 
as though I were walking up to the edge of the Grand Canyon and 
contemplated what happens if you go over that abyss.
  It appears to me tonight, gentlemen, and tell me if I'm not 
overstating this, that we are standing on an abyss. And that if we step 
off the edge by passing this bill, America will not be the same country 
she's ever been in the past, and we will not be able to recover from 
that.
  Mr. BROUN of Georgia. Will the gentleman yield?
  Mr. AKIN. I do yield.
  Mr. BROUN of Georgia. Absolutely. You're correct about that. In fact, 
we're at a tipping point where this country is either going to be 
totally socialistic--government controls everything in everybody's life 
from Washington, D.C. And that's what this health care bill is designed 
and geared to do. Or, we are going to walk away from that and start 
fighting for freedom and cutting down the size of the Federal 
Government and let people live their own lives without all the 
government intrusion. That's exactly where we are.
  I wanted to bring up another issue to throw this out then: That 
people should understand that this bill that we are supposedly going to 
vote upon--I guess we will, the Senate bill, H.R. 3590--the CBO, the 
Congressional Budget Office, says that it will increase premiums for 
everybody who's buying private insurance today by $2,100 per family. So 
not only is it going to destroy the Federal budget, it's going to 
destroy the State's budget, but it's going to destroy everybody's 
family budget. It's going to be horrendously expensive, and it's also 
going to destroy jobs. There are going to be over 5 million people that 
are going to lose their jobs if this bill ever becomes law.

  Mr. AKIN. You know, when we're running at whatever it is--and these 
numbers, I don't really believe them, because these numbers are worse--
but 10 percent unemployment, and you dump 5 million more jobs lost on a 
bill that is already going to cost trillions of dollars that we don't 
have, this thing, it just seems like somebody has to have some sort of 
blind faith to have their foot down on the pedal of the battleship and 
just try to drive the battleship through the dock.
  In my district, this is a working day today. We rented a facility at 
the St. Charles Convention Center. It had seating for 800 people. Now 
where are you going to find 800 people that care about politics in the 
middle of a Wednesday? Wednesday morning at 10 o'clock in St. Louis. 
When the beginning of the town hall started, we had over a thousand. By 
the time it had gotten going a little bit, we had 2,200 people. You 
couldn't even get any more people in the room. And their sentiment was 
along the lines of what we sense here. They said, We don't like this 
bill. We really don't like this bill. They were begging, What can we do 
to stop this thing? So my sense is that we're not the only people that 
are thinking like this in this country.
  My good friend from Texas, Congressman Gohmert.
  Mr. GOHMERT. Well, I think there's actually great wisdom in what 
President Obama said that's on the chart right behind you, and that is, 
Reconciliation is therefore the wrong place for policy changes. In 
short, the reconciliation process appears to have lost its proper 
meaning. A vehicle designed for deficit reduction and fiscal 
responsibility has been hijacked to facilitate reckless deficits and 
unsustainable debt. The President called that exactly right.
  I need to ask my friend, I can't see the date there. Was that last 
week that he said that? When was that?
  Mr. AKIN. You know, that's the ironic thing about this quote and the 
reason why we put it on this chart. The President has been saying a lot 
of things. I think the most truthful thing he said was that, I'm going 
to bring you change. I think he's been fair in doing that. Not much 
else that I've heard that doesn't seem to have some contradiction.
  But this quote here, Reconciliation is therefore the wrong place for 
policy changes, such as the government taking over one-sixth of the 
economy. In short, this process seems to have lost its proper meaning. 
A vehicle designed for deficit reduction. That's what it was supposed 
to be for--deficit reduction, fiscal responsibility. It's been 
hijacked.

[[Page H1309]]

  I'm glad you asked that question because the date here says December, 
2005. So I don't think he really wants us to remember what he said in 
2005, because if you were to take this today, this would mean that they 
aren't going to pass this bill.
  Mr. GOHMERT. That's right.
  Mr. AKIN. So it kind of depends whether its your bill or my bill, I 
guess.
  Mr. GOHMERT. And as we understand now, in 2005, Senator Obama was 
moving forward, campaigning, moving toward a Presidential run. But I 
tell you, it just blessed my heart to hear President Obama say in the 
summit at the Blair House, when he said to Senator McCain, We're not 
campaigning any more. I said, Hallelujah. The President's going to stop 
campaigning. I tell you, that was such good news to me because that 
means the President's going to quit campaigning and just try to govern. 
If he were to going to campaign, he would probably have gone off to who 
knows where--Missouri or somewhere today--and given another speech. The 
fact that we're not campaigning anymore means he's back here trying to 
figure out how we can reform health care without cramming it down the 
throats of 60 to 70 percent of Americans that don't want this bad 
medicine that's about to be rammed down their throat.
  Mr. AKIN. I appreciate your perspective and particularly calling 
attention to the fact that this reconciliation is hijacking the entire 
legislative process. He is willing to do this, to pass this particular 
piece of legislation.
  My good friend from Pennsylvania, somebody said that if you've got a 
busted faucet or sink in your kitchen, a smart thing to do is to fix 
the faucet or the sink, not to remodel the whole kitchen. Does it 
appear to you that the difference between the two political parties on 
this issue is that the Democrats have really decided they're going to 
remodel the kitchen, whether you want it or not, and the Republicans, 
we have a lot of different health care bills as Republicans, but ours 
are all fix the sink or fix the drain. We're taking a look at what we 
have, seeing what needs to be fixed to make it better, and we're 
selectively doing that, whereas it seems the Democrats have the concept 
they're just going to re-create everything. Take one-sixth of the 
economy, have the government run it.
  Does that seem like it fits for you?
  Mr. THOMPSON. I think that comes close. Actually, I believe that the 
health care issue is more like a leaky faucet. And what my good friends 
on the Democratic side of the aisle are choosing to do is to burn the 
house down versus just--
  Mr. AKIN. So remodeling the kitchen--
  Mr. THOMPSON. They're burning the entire house down and taking it 
from a system that has been a model for the world, actually. I give you 
one example. One of the issues we talk about--and we agree we need to 
improve access to quality health care. I would have been much happier 
if this whole debate, when we started it--in fact, I came to Congress 
thinking that we would have that debate--how do we improve access to 
quality health care. No. What are we debating? Health insurance. Not 
even the right topic.
  I want to put it in the perspective of probably an example that I 
think touches all the colleagues here on the floor. I'm from a very 
rural district. I have probably almost 24 different rural hospitals in 
my congressional district. Those hospitals, in addition to the economic 
engines, they're incredibly important to those communities. They're the 
source of positions. They're really good jobs. They purchase resources. 
They're good neighbors. They purchase resources in the community. So 
they're good for the community. But beyond that, having those in those 
rural communities provides access to quality health care.
  You never want to see a hospital close. I don't believe that. But if 
you close one in the city, probably within about a six-block radius 
you're going to find another hospital that's going to be able to 
provide you access to lifesaving care.

                              {time}  2145

  You close a hospital in my congressional district, and what you wind 
up with is a commute that makes the difference between life and death. 
We're talking hours to get the same type of, or any type of, access to 
health care. So here's the rub when it comes to this bill that's being 
proposed, $500 billion cuts to Medicare. And my good friend already 
talked about the fact that Medicare only pays maybe 80 to 90 cents for 
a dollar's worth of care that a hospital or a physician provides. So 
Medicare is already underfunded.
  We've talked about how that is one of the contributing factors to why 
commercial health insurance is so expensive. Commercial health 
insurance nationally pays 135 percent of costs. The Federal Government 
only pays 80 to 90 percent of costs. So what are we going to do? What's 
the solution to that obvious problem? Let's cut more Medicare. Let's 
throw in $500 billion in cuts.
  Mr. AKIN. There you go. That's another counterintuitive thing. This 
whole bill seems to be counterintuitive, doesn't it?
  Let me ask a question. We have two of you who are medical doctors 
here, one who's a judge, one's a former medical professional. I'm an 
engineer by training, and now we're Congressmen. And one of the things 
that we have to do and we should pay attention to is our constituents. 
We get calls from people saying, Hey, I've got a problem with this, 
Congressman. You need to help me. And they ask us to do some weird 
stuff sometimes. Like, I remember the first time they asked me to get 
them a job. And I'm thinking, Hey, I'm not a job agency. I'm a 
Congressman. But we're asked to do a lot of different things, and we 
try to help out.
  Now, my question to you is, let's say we jump off the abyss, and now 
we've got this mess, and we have people back home calling us saying, My 
mom, my mom is sick. She got cancer. She got it bad, and she's going to 
need help right away. So I went to get some health care for my mom. 
They said I have got to wait 6 months. What I'm asking you is this 
question: How, as Congressmen, are we going to get through this mess to 
try to help our constituents? And even worse, how are our constituents 
ever going to get from here over to get their medical care? Does that 
concern you? Congressman Gohmert, do you want to take a shot at that? 
This doesn't look friendly to me.
  Mr. GOHMERT. Well, it's because it's not friendly. I was privileged 
back in 1973 for the summer to be an exchange student in the Soviet 
Union. I saw socialized medicine firsthand, and that's where this is 
going. It's socialized medicine where the government controls it. I 
don't want the insurance companies between me and my doctor, and that 
means I also don't want any of that just massive amount of government 
between me and my doctor, but that's where this takes us.
  And you wonder, Why would a group risk losing the majority in 
Congress to pass a bill like this when they know what's at stake 
politically? And the answer is, it puts in place so much government 
that once it's in place, it won't matter which party is in the 
majority. It's kind of like the Department of Education or other things 
that are not enumerated powers in the Constitution. Once it's there, 
you can't do anything about it. The school districts lose billions of 
dollars over the years that have been usurped by just a bureaucracy in 
Washington. It's going to happen with health care.
  And just quickly, let me tell you, what inspired me to get with 
professionals, health care professionals, economists to come up with a 
solution was, when I saw that if you added together the amount of money 
we spend on Medicare and Medicaid and divide that by the total number 
of households in all of the United States, it's an average of over 
$10,000 from every household in America to fund Medicare and Medicaid.
  When I saw that, I was thinking, My goodness, all that government, 
all that we're paying for, we're better off if we said to every 
household that has people on Medicare or Medicaid or even SCHIP, here's 
$3,500 cash from the Federal Government in a health savings account you 
control with a debit card, and we will buy you private insurance that's 
catastrophic care to cover everything above that. You don't have to buy 
any more supplemental coverage or wraparound coverage.
  And I know that scares AARP because they made a lot of money off of 
that supplemental insurance. But this will help seniors. You give them 
a

[[Page H1310]]

choice. You want to keep having Medicare, you want to keep having 
Medicaid, or do you want us to give you cash you control and get the 
insurance company and the government out between you and your doctor? 
And I think people, when you give them that voluntary choice, they will 
make the choices that will save us from bankruptcy that Medicare is 
driving us to. I yield back.
  Mr. AKIN. Now wait a minute. You have got me all confused, 
Congressman Gohmert because my understanding is, Republicans--from what 
the President has said--don't have any ideas. We don't have any bills. 
Of course he also said that he read our bills, so that was a little 
confusing too. But what you just outlined was basically getting up at 
50,000 feet, looking at the problem and saying, We really don't need 
the government to get into all this detail. We simply take the amount 
of money that the government's spending right now. You break it into 
pieces, just designate the number of families in our country, and 
you've already got something that's going to work.
  Mr. GOHMERT. That's actually a lot cheaper than what we're doing now. 
It would save money. But let me just say this: I know a lot of people 
kowtow to CBO. Let me tell you that in this Congress--and the director 
has called me and said, Oh, we are very objective. And I know they do 
the best they can to being objective. But I'm telling you, since he got 
woodshedded at the White House, let me tell you, there have been I 
believe it's been 56 health care bills that have been scored by CBO.
  We have about 70 bills from Republican Study Committee members to 
reform health care. Seventy bills, they are bills. And you know how 
many we have gotten scored on the Republican side? Six, six bills. I 
have been begging and writing all kinds of ways. I have had ranking 
member of the committee of jurisdiction, Joe Barton, request my bill be 
scored. I've had Dave Camp when they said, Well, you don't have the 
Joint Commission ranking member. Well, then, Dave Camp requested. I 
can't get it scored. And I realize by making a big deal about CBO not 
scoring Republican plans, that they may say, Oh, Gohmert, we'll take 
your bill, and we'll score it, and you're not going to like the way it 
comes out. I realize that's a risk. But I'm telling you, it has been so 
abusive that CBO has done virtually nothing.
  About a tenth of the Republican bills that they have scored are 
Democratic bills. And if they want to bring some equity to this and 
some objectiveness, it is time CBO started scoring Republican bills and 
not just Democratic bills. I had to get that out.
  Mr. AKIN. Well, I appreciate that, Congressman Gohmert. You know, 
those of us who know Congressman Gohmert--and I know my colleagues do--
know that he has a gift of persistence. And I recall one of his more 
persistent moments. It was right here on this floor when there was a 
bill that I would say is probably the second worst bill I have seen. 
It's only half as bad as this bill, and it was a bill that was amended 
with 300 pages of amendments at 3 o'clock in the morning. I think 
it was the late part of spring of this last year.

  I remember Mr. Gohmert had the same sense of persistence, and he got 
this idea that maybe if we're going to vote on a bill that it ought to 
be here in the Chamber because there is a rule that the bill we're 
debating and voting on is supposed to be in the Chamber. I remember 
just asking, is it north, south, east or west? It was like a kid 
looking for a button that's hidden in a room somewhere. And he's back 
and forth and back and forth. Finally they said, The bill is right up 
there in that desk. He went up and looked for it. And guess what? It 
wasn't there.
  So I don't know, people like to hide things on you, Congressman. I 
don't know what to tell you, but it would be interesting if we knew 
what the financial score on some ideas, such as what you had, that are 
innovative. And it's the fact that Republicans, of course, don't have 
any ideas except that the President did read them and all. So that 
makes it kind of interesting.
  I notice we're joined by some other good friends of mine. Congressman 
Scalise from Louisiana is here, and I just wanted to let you have a 
chance. We're going to talk a little bit about this really amazing 
medical bill that's being pushed forward.
  Mr. SCALISE. Well, I want to thank my colleague from Missouri for 
hosting this and my other colleagues who are expressing leadership and 
really trying to make this last stand because we are at the last stand 
for health care, as the President continues to try to ram down the 
throats of the American people this government takeover. And here we 
are on the House floor as Speaker Pelosi is trying in the next week, 
possibly, to have a vote here on the House floor on a bill that the 
American people have said in every way possible that they don't want.
  You had the elections, of course, in Virginia and New Jersey; and 
then you had the election in Massachusetts, of all places, where Scott 
Brown said, I'll be the 41st vote against health care, and he won. And 
even after that, this tone-deaf liberal leadership here in Congress is 
saying that they're going to continue to try to ram down this 
government takeover. What you're pointing out and my colleagues are 
pointing out are some incredibly important facts that I think the 
American people themselves have been seeing as they've been reading the 
bill, and this latest version is over 2,400 pages long.
  But there's a couple of points in there, and I want to touch on one 
of them, and I know you have touched on a few others. Clearly there is 
over $500 billion in new taxes in this bill. There is over $500 billion 
in cuts to Medicare in this bill, things that would devastate medical 
care in this country as people know and enjoy it. We want to reform 
health care. We want to fix real problems to lower costs, to address 
preconditions. They don't want to do that. They want a government 
takeover.
  But there are some other things in this bill that also show some of 
their real intentions. And the issue of abortion funding, taxpayer 
funding of abortion has been one of those at the core of, you know, who 
do you believe and what are the myths. And of course you've got Speaker 
Pelosi out there saying, Oh, don't worry. Abortion funding won't be in 
this bill.
  There are two pieces of information I want to point out, and I think 
a lot of people have started to see all of this, but it really 
clarifies what's going on. This first letter I want to read a few 
sentences from is from the United States Conference of Catholic 
Bishops. Catholic bishops, they don't have a vested interest in whether 
the Republican approach or the Democratic approach is moving forward. 
But they have two real concerns. One is, they don't want abortion 
funding, and they want a conscience clause protection. So I'm going to 
read a few quick sentences.
  First on human life: ``Disappointingly, the Senate-passed bill in 
particular does not meet our moral criteria on life and conscience. 
Specifically, it violates the longstanding Federal policy against the 
use of Federal funds for elective abortions and health plans that 
include such abortions.'' It goes on to say: ``We believe legislation 
that fails to comply with this policy and precedent is not true health 
care reform and should be opposed until this fundamental problem is 
remedied.'' This is the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.
  And then one other I'm going to read for you is National Right to 
Life, a very respected organization, a bipartisan organization. 
National Right to Life also addresses the Senate language as it relates 
to taxpayer funding of abortion: ``Any House Member who votes for the 
Senate health bill is casting a career-defining pro-abortion vote.'' 
This is National Right to Life. And the final sentence I will read: 
``The Senate health bill is a 2,407-page labyrinth strewn with the 
legislative equivalents of improvised explosive devices--disguised 
provisions that will result in Federal pro-abortion mandates and 
Federal subsidies for abortion.'' That's National Right to Life.
  So as the American people are contemplating all of this, they're 
going to have to ask themselves, who do they believe as this 
information and misinformation is out there? Do they believe Speaker 
Pelosi who says, Don't worry, taxpayer funding of abortion is not in 
this 2,400-page bill? Or do they believe the United States Conference 
of Catholic Bishops and National Right to Life who both clearly state 
that the Senate bill does contain taxpayer funding of

[[Page H1311]]

abortion? Yet one of just many big points of opposition we have to this 
government takeover of health care.
  Mr. AKIN. I certainly appreciate the gentleman making that point. And 
it is usually presented as a pro-life position that we don't want the 
government funding abortions. It almost struck me as kind of two 
different things almost. One, Do you think it's a good idea to abort 
little children? But the second question is a conscience question, Do 
you think it's a good idea to force people to pay taxes and then use 
those taxes for something that they believe is the destruction of a 
human life?
  You know, one of the things that has really encouraged me--you just 
talked about that election in Massachusetts. You know, in America 
there's always been a few people that say they're agnostic or an 
atheist. And what really encouraged me about that election is that 
nobody can claim they're an atheist or agnostic anymore in America 
because only God could have elected a Republican in the State of 
Massachusetts. I mean, it couldn't have been done by anybody else. So 
I'm glad at least we won't have too many of those kicking around.

                              {time}  2200

  I am joined here also by the gentlewoman from Minnesota (Mrs. 
Bachmann), and you have been a voice for conservative values and so 
strong on this bill, and I am so thankful we have the A-Team out here 
this evening as we are coming down to the finish line, and that is the 
bill will be finished. I appreciate your giving us a northern 
perspective as well as some other perspectives as well.
  Mrs. BACHMANN. Thank you so much. Congressman Akin, you were also 
involved with the Declaration of Health Care Independence. I believe 
every Member here was involved with putting that document together. 
This weekend I was with Congressman Gohmert, and one of his 
constituents walked up to me and handed me another thousand signatures 
that she gathered to sign the Declaration of Health Care Independence. 
Just in her sphere in east Texas, she got a thousand people to sign. I 
thought one voice that hasn't been heard real loud in the health care 
debate is that of the American people. She gave me not only a thousand 
signatures, she also took comments from the people. I wanted, if I 
could, just to read one page as my contribution tonight, because I 
think it is important here in the most important democratic body in the 
history of the world, the United States House of Representatives, the 
American people should have their voice heard tonight because they 
haven't had it.
  So with your permission, let me read a few of those comments.
  Mr. AKIN. That sounds like it would be very interesting, because we 
just had 2,200 people come to our town hall meeting today. We should 
have had our Declaration of Health Care Independence there because you 
would have had another 2,200 people.
  Please share their comments.
  Mrs. BACHMANN. This is from Cheri Hamilton, who said, Stop trying to 
destroy this country. The health care system can be fixed without a 
takeover. Listen to the American people. Stop this socialist agenda.
  Ted Mesjak: ObamaCare is a can of socialized medicine worms.
  Duane Anderson: My wish for signing this petition is that it adds 
more fuel to fight the government takeover of my health care. The 
despair is that the government so far has not listened to my views or 
the views of others who share the same viewpoint.
  Kathleen Somers: I do not want the current health care reform bill. 
It will put this country into further debt, and Obama and his 
administration need to work with Republicans.
  Herbert Rudolph: As a senior citizen, I am absolutely sick and tired 
of the Federal Government interfering in my personal life.
  Kerry Ferguson: It is our President and his congressional bullies 
began respecting the will of the American people. Please keep up the 
good fight for intelligent health care reform. We must get this right.
  Mike Tarbert: Stop these idiots and have them change their meds.
  Beverly Harper: This bill is a travesty.
  Mary Baptista: I do not want the inefficiency of the DMV and the 
compassion of the IRS to be part of my health care. Less government and 
more freedom to choose.
  They have a good sense of humor in east Texas.
  Lorrie Breed: Let the States handle this. Governors can do this if 
the Feds will get out of the way.
  Shirley Wahl: I expect that the Congress will vote what the American 
citizens want, and set aside their preferences in favor of their 
constituents.
  Nancy York: Hear, hear.
  And this goes on for a thousand different comments from people across 
the country.
  And today I heard that a lot of the Blue Dogs, the so-called 
conservatives here in Congress, are starting to weaken. Their spines 
are starting to go. We all know this is going to break the bank, this 
bill, and yet it is these dear, sweet people from all across America 
who have been begging and fighting their own government to get their 
government to listen to what they want. And no less than CNN has 
reported that three out of four Americans don't want this current 
health care bill.
  Time magazine last week reported, not exactly a right-wing news 
source, that the Obama administration is laying the foundation that 
within 10 years, we will have to pay double taxes before this health 
care bill passes.
  So the American people have been desperately trying to get into this 
debate and get the American Congress to hear them, and the President. I 
think it is important, Mr. Akin, that the American people know that we 
have tried to let their voices be heard here in the House. We are 
hearing them and we are trying to speak back to the American people. We 
hear you. We are fighting. Don't give up. We are not giving up.
  I still believe it is not inevitable. If the people call, if the 
people go to their Member's office, we can still defeat this. I really 
appreciate you leading this Special Order tonight.
  Mr. AKIN. I appreciate you, Congresswoman.
  When we were at this last summer, the President said, I want a vote 
before we go on summer break. And you were pleading the charge last 
summer, saying, No, we are going to hold the line. Even though we are 
80 votes short in the House, we are going to talk. We are going to take 
this battle to the American public. We are going to win the war of 
ideas.
  What we have seen is we got past the summer. We got into the fall. 
After we got through the fall, it looked like if we could just get into 
2010, it will be election year, maybe people will listen then. We saw 
at Christmastime, we saw the situation where the 60 Democrats got 
together and they passed it and it looked like we were really in 
trouble.
  And what struck me, you and those on the floor tonight, and my 
friends and comrades, a band of brothers and sisters, have been 
discovering in our hearts what our minds knew for a long time, and that 
is when a group of people stand and do everything in their power to do 
what is right, they can call on the power of God to help them, just as 
our forefathers did, and expect to see unusual results.
  When I saw Massachusetts with a Republican Senator, I had to start 
laughing. I thought, Boy, does God have a sense of humor. And we saw, 
while we didn't have any power at all, all we could do, as you are 
doing, just tell the hearts of the American people. Let people 
understand, you are not the only one out there who is feeling like you 
are crazy. You are not the only one who is starting to see that 
government is not the answer; government is the problem. The American 
public is making their voices heard, and they will make them heard in 
the elections coming up.
  Thank you for joining us.
  Congressman Thompson.
  Mr. THOMPSON of Pennsylvania. Mr. Akin, I want to come back to the 
chart you have there. It is a perfect capture of bureaucracy. 
Bureaucracy, one of the things that we talked about. We are all 
committed to lowering the health care costs for every single American. 
That is a principle that we all should be doing the right things 
towards. And there are solutions out there that we have worked on and 
introduced. The Putting Patients First Act is just one of them that 
would bring the cost of health care down for everyone.

[[Page H1312]]

  But I want to talk about the consequences of that chart, of this 
Senate bill which is being shoved like a freight train through Congress 
and on the American people. Over a hundred different mandates, well 
over a hundred different new bureaucracies are being created in health 
care. I will just come back to one that was created, and the practical 
impact of that, under President Clinton: the Health Insurance 
Portability and Accountability Act, HIPAA.
  Everyone wants privacy when it comes to health care. It is a very 
intimate subject. That is why we don't want a bureaucrat involved in 
our health care. The portability part, I have to say, if that worked 
back in the 1990s, we would all be better if we could take our 
insurance with us where we went. But it didn't; it failed. But what it 
did do is put a layer of bureaucracy in our health care system that has 
just piled tons and tons of layers and money, money that is required to 
be spent to implement and execute that bureaucracy.
  And you know where that money comes from? It comes from direct care. 
That is money that goes into--and when they talk about waste in health 
care, government mandates are a tremendous waste. That is how I got 
involved in public policy, actually, out of frustration, because I saw 
what the Medicare regulations, many of them, were doing to add cost and 
decrease access to cost-effective health care.
  Mr. AKIN. So what you are talking about isn't exactly a surprise to 
us. You've been there, and what you are saying is health care is just 
what you expect. When the government does it, it is inefficient and it 
is a tremendous waste. And so to try and say, Now we have got Medicare 
and Medicaid that have gone bankrupt, and so give us the rest of health 
care to take over, there is a problem with that line of reasoning 
somehow.
  Mr. THOMPSON of Pennsylvania. Absolutely. And what we are talking 
about today goes well beyond Medicare. I thought Medicare and Medicaid 
were complex. This new proposal, this Senate bill that is being pushed 
at us, HIPAA, the impact of costs on health care just from HIPAA were 
significant. If you multiply that times a hundred new Federal mandates 
on health care, and you multiply that by 150 new bureaucracies within 
the health care system, the ultimate cost of what this will cost our 
country, our citizens, and our health is just devastating.

                              {time}  2210

  Mr. BROUN of Georgia. Will the gentleman yield?
  Mr. AKIN. I'm going to yield to my good friend, Congressman Broun, 
but I can't help but think that we need somebody who's a songwriter. Do 
you remember there was a guy in Boston that won a political race by 
writing that song, ``Charlie the MTA?'' It was a sad song about poor 
old Charlie because he's bound to ride forever because he doesn't have 
the last nickel for the fare that some politician was pushing, an 
increase in the rate of the train. But we could have poor Charlie 
trying to get through this mess, lost forever in this system trying to 
get his cold medicine, or whatever it is; he's going to get lost 
forever in that mess.
  Congressman Broun from down in Georgia.
  Mr. BROUN of Georgia. Mr. Akin, you made a very astute observation 
just a moment ago, and our good friend, G.T. Thompson, was just talking 
about something that I want to come back to, back to your comment that 
government is the problem.
  Practicing medicine, I've seen the cost of health care go up for 
everybody in this country because of government regulations. And let me 
just tell you about a couple of things; one is HIPAA that G.T. was just 
talking about. HIPAA was totally unneeded, totally unwarranted. It's a 
law passed by Congress. It's a regulatory burden that's been placed on 
the health care system. It has cost billions of dollars and has not 
paid for the first aspirin to treat the headaches it has created.
  Another bill that was passed, Henry Waxman, Ted Kennedy, Pete Stark, 
and others, passed a bill a couple of years ago called CLIA, the 
Clinical Laboratory Improvement Act. I was practicing medicine in a 
small, rural community down in southwest Georgia. Prior to HIPAA, I had 
a fully automated lab in my office, quality controlled so that I knew 
that the results I got out of my lab were absolutely correct so I could 
give good, quality care to my patients. Congress passed CLIA, which 
shut my lab and every doctor's lab down in this country.
  Prior to CLIA, if a patient came in to see me with a red sore throat, 
running a fever, coughing, runny nose, headache, I would do a CBC, a 
complete blood count, to see if they had a bacterial infection which 
needs antibiotics to treat it or a viral infection, which does not need 
antibiotics. They don't need to spend the money, they don't to be 
exposed to the antibiotics. I could do that test in 5 minutes. It cost 
12 bucks. That's what I charged, $12. HIPAA shut me down so I couldn't 
do that anymore, and I had to send patients over to the hospital to get 
the same test or else I just had to arbitrarily give them antibiotics 
so that they had the huge cost of going to buy those antibiotics. But 
if they went to the hospital, it took two to three hours and cost $75. 
For one test, it went from one $12, 5 minutes to $75, two to three 
hours for one test, for one regulatory burden. Now, you can multiply 
that over the whole course of the health care system in the United 
States and you will see that it drove up, markedly, the cost of 
everybody's insurance in this country.
  Government is the problem. And getting the regulatory burden off of 
the health care system, getting the tax burden off of small businesses, 
we can literally lower the cost of health care and make it affordable 
for those that don't have the ability to buy it today. So government is 
the problem, and adding more government to it is going to drive the 
cost up.
  Mr. AKIN. I think a lot of Americans have come to the same 
conclusion, government is the problem, and they want a whole lot less 
of it down here threatening them from D.C.
  My good friend from Texas, Congressman Gohmert.
  Mr. GOHMERT. What you're talking about is exactly what Thomas 
Jefferson talked about when he said the natural course of things is for 
liberty to yield and government to gain. And I thought Steve Moore from 
the Wall Street Journal made a great point this morning, in talking 
with him, when he said, people inherently know in America that if you 
add 30 million people to the same health care coverage you're not going 
to save money. If you were to save money by adding 30 million people to 
our health insurance or Medicare, then, as he said, we might as well 
say, you know what? We'll insure everybody in China, and that will get 
us out of the deficit. It's not true; it doesn't work. We've got to be 
practical and stop government from taking over where liberty is 
yielding.
  Mr. AKIN. Now I've got a question: Do you think that the guy that 
came up with the idea that if we add people that are uninsured to the 
health care situation it's going to save money maybe was the same guy 
that said the economy will get better if you spend a whole lot more 
money? I thought maybe they were twins or something like that.
  Dr. Fleming, just got a minute.
  Mr. FLEMING. We're in the closing moments. I just want to touch on 
the process. We've heard about the Corn Husker kickback, the Louisiana 
Purchase, the Gatorade Carve-out for the Medicare Advantage in Florida.
  Mr. AKIN. All special deals, yeah.
  Mr. FLEMING. All special deals. And today we find out that yesterday 
or the day before our Speaker, Speaker Pelosi, made this comment, she 
said, We're going to have to pass this bill in order to find out what's 
in it. Now, we're talking about one-sixth of the entire economy here, 
and our Speaker has the audacity to say that we need to pass this crazy 
3,000-page bill just to find out what's in it? And with that she's 
referring to reconciliation.
  Mr. AKIN. That's an amazing quote, isn't it? We have to pass the 
3,000-page bill just to find out what's in it.
  Mr. FLEMING. Well, we learned with the stimulus bill that you didn't 
have to read it to pass it, so I guess maybe it just correlated with 
that.
  Mr. AKIN. Well, there does seem to be some parallelism here, but it 
seems like it's close to insane almost.
  We've got just a minute or so left, and Michele, I wanted to give you 
the last minute or two here.

[[Page H1313]]

  Thanks, everybody.
  Mrs. BACHMANN. Thanks, I appreciate it.
  I want to go back to a little sign that Louie Gohmert held up at the 
State of the Union speech, or something, the joint session, that said, 
``What plan?'' Remember the President, at the 7-hour infomercial that 
was supposedly a summit on health care, he had a 12-page proposal. 
There was no legislative plan, there were no words on paper, and we 
didn't know how much it cost.
  We Republicans are still in the dark, and I don't know if the 
American people know that. There is still no bill out there that we've 
been able to see. All these backroom deals that my good friend, John 
Fleming, is talking about, they're being cut on a bill not one of us 
has ever had a chance to read. Nobody has read the bill that these 
deals are being cut on. Every bit of this, every word in this bill is 
all behind closed doors, and these backroom deals. And no one is going 
to know about what all these deals are until it goes through.
  But just to give the American people a chance, let me read a couple 
more. Judith Kaminsky: ``To force unwanted, expensive, unconstitutional 
health care laws on the United States is not only a blow to capitalism, 
but a dismembering of our way of life and our rule of law. It's 
criminal to push so hard for something as unhelpful, unsafe, unpopular, 
and uneconomical as the current administration's want list. There are 
better ways to achieve a desirable outcome for the changes that might 
be necessary.''

  Mr. AKIN. Let's elect her to Congress. That's a good idea.
  I think we're about out of time here. I just want to thank the A team 
for coming out tonight, just a great discussion.

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