[Congressional Record Volume 147, Number 105 (Wednesday, July 25, 2001)]
[House]
[Pages H4597-H4610]
From the Congressional Record Online through the Government Publishing Office [www.gpo.gov]
PERSONAL EXPLANATION
Ms. EDDIE BERNICE JOHNSON of Texas. Mr. Chairman, on rollcall Nos.
268 and 269--Inslee amendment and Hinchy amendment--I was detained in a
Senate meeting on Election Reform. Had I been present, I would have
voted ``yea'' on both.
The CHAIRMAN pro tempore (Mr. Gutknecht). Pursuant to the order of
the House of today, during consideration of the amendments numbered 5,
7 and 8, the following order shall apply:
(1) The amendment numbered 7 shall immediately follow disposition of,
or postponement of further proceedings on, the amendment numbered 5.
(2) The amendment numbered 5 shall be subject only to the amendment
by the gentleman from Arizona (Mr. Flake) that has been placed at the
desk.
(3) The amendment numbered 7 shall be subject only to one substantive
amendment.
(4) The amendments numbered 5 and 7, and each specified amendment
thereto, each shall be debatable for 20 minutes, equally divided and
controlled by the proponent and an opponent except that the chairman
and ranking minority member of the Committee on Appropriations, or a
designee, each may offer one pro forma amendment for the purpose of
further debate on any of those pending amendments.
(5) Debate on the amendment numbered 8, and all amendments thereto,
shall be limited to 1 hour, equally divided and controlled by the
proponent and an opponent.
Amendment Offered by Mr. Wynn
Mr. WYNN. Mr. Chairman, I offer an amendment.
The Clerk read as follows:
Amendment offered by Mr. Wynn:
At the end of the bill (preceding the short title) insert
the following new section:
Sec. ____. None of the funds made available in this Act may
be used to initiate the process of contracting out,
outsourcing, privatizing, or converting any Federal
Government services in contravention of Public Law 105-270.
Mr. ISTOOK. Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent that all debate on
this amendment be limited to 10 minutes, equally divided and controlled
by the proponent and an opponent.
The CHAIRMAN pro tempore. Is there objection to the request of the
gentleman from Oklahoma?
There was no objection.
{time} 1600
Mr. WYNN. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
Mr. Chairman, I rise in support of this amendment to focus on a
problem facing our government, and that is unregulated and uncontrolled
out
sourcing, or, as it is sometimes called, privatization. The amendment
specifically says that in contracting out, privatizing or otherwise
giving Federal work to the private sector, that we adhere to existing
law, Public Law 105-270.
This law, known as the FAIR Act, the Federal Activities Inventory
Reform Act of 1998, basically says that whenever there should be an
outsourcing, there shall also be a competition to determine that the
taxpayer gets best value, best value in terms of quality and in terms
of cost. Unfortunately, we find Federal agencies are not adhering to
the FAIR Act; they are outsourcing without this control mechanism, and
what we further find is that this outsourcing has not been beneficial
to the taxpayer.
Let me give you an example. In the fiscal year 2000 Defense
Appropriations bill, my Republican colleagues wrote, ``There is no
clear evidence that the current DOD outsourcing and privatization
effort is reducing the cost of support functions within DOD with high
cost contractors simply replacing government employees. In addition,
the current privatization effort appears to have created serious
oversight problems for DOD, especially in those cases where DOD has
contracted for financial management and other routine administrative
functions.''
My point is, there is no evidence that outsourcing is, per se, better
than Federal employees. The United States Government has a great
resource in its Federal employees. We also have a great resource in
private sector companies. We ought to have a competition in which
Federal employees can compete against private companies for those jobs
that are considered for being contracted out.
That is what this bill would do. It is quite simple. It would give
the taxpayer best value, both in terms of quality and in terms of cost.
It merely requires the agencies to abide by our current law, which
requires competition.
Mr. Chairman, I reserve the balance of my time.
Mr. TOM DAVIS of Virginia. Mr. Chairman, I rise to oppose the
amendment and claim the time in opposition.
The CHAIRMAN pro tempore (Mr. Thornberry). The gentleman from
Virginia is recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. TOM DAVIS of Virginia. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself such time as
I may consume.
Mr. Chairman, I certainly agree with some of the things my colleague
said in terms of outsourcing and trying to make it so it is not
uncontrolled and unpredictable. The difficulty with this
[[Page H4598]]
amendment is that it does not just implement the FAIR Act, the Federal
Activities Inventory Reform Act. That act applied only to commercial
activities.
This act, if you read the language, says none of the funds made
available may be used to initiate the process of contracting out,
outsourcing, priva-
tizing, converting any Federal Government services.
This applies to IT functions, it applies to SEAT management, it
applies to ship construction, it applies to Javits-Wagner-O'Day
functions, engineering functions. What it does in these functions under
the current regulations as they are written is we will have to use the
A-76 process in terms of going out sourcing any of these.
The A-76 process is used in only 2 percent of DOD contracts, and in
almost no civilian contracts, because it is a 2-year process. This
would basically freeze outsourcing in non-commercial areas, something
the FAIR Act was not intended to apply to originally.
This amendment, in my judgment, is going to hinder and possibly shut
down segments of the Federal Government's operations because we do not
have in many of these areas of high expertise information technology,
engineering, the in-house capability to perform them.
Last year Congress mandated that GAO create the Commercial Activities
Panel to study the policies and procedures governing the transfer of
the Federal Government's commercial activities from its employees to
contractors.
This panel is going to report back to Congress in May, next year,
with recommendations for improvements. I believe that Congress should
await the results of this review before we start to legislate on that
issue.
So it is for those reasons that I would urge my colleagues to oppose
this amendment.
Mr. Chairman, I reserve the balance of my time.
Mr. WYNN. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to comment on a couple points made by my
good friend and colleague from Northern Virginia. First of all, it
should be clearly understood, this amendment would not affect any
existing contracts. Any existing contracts, commercial or non-
commercial, are not affected by this bill.
Second, this bill is current law. Now, the gentleman may be correct
in some respects that current law does not work as well as we would
like, but that is not unique to this body, unfortunately; and efforts
are under way to streamline current law. But it is current law; and it
does say before you out source, you should have competition.
We regularly come to the floor and talk about the benefits to the
taxpayer of greater competition. There should be more competition. Does
the process take too long? Not necessarily, when you consider the
length of some of the contracts involved, 3-year, 5-year contracts. The
process is a reasonable process that gives Federal employees a fair
opportunity.
If Federal employees are not performing some of these IT functions
now, there would be no competition between Federal employees; it would
be competition purely between private sector versus private sector. On
the other hand, however, if Federal employees are performing these
functions now and if they are doing a good job by virtue of both the
cost that they charge to the Government as well as the quality that
they provide based on their experience, then they should have the
opportunity to compete to perform that contract as against a private
sector company that is applying for that contract for the first time
and may not be able to provide the same value.
I believe this is a reasonable approach.
Mr. Chairman, I reserve the balance of my time.
Mr. TOM DAVIS of Virginia. Mr. Chairman, I yield 1\1/2\ minutes to
the gentleman from Texas (Mr. Sessions).
Mr. SESSIONS. Mr. Chairman, I thank the gentleman for yielding me
time and also rise in opposition to this Wynn amendment.
Mr. Chairman, the fact of the matter is that the gentleman from
Maryland (Mr. Wynn) has been honest about his objections. The gentleman
from Maryland (Mr. Wynn) does not like outsourcing. The gentleman from
Maryland (Mr. Wynn) wants to try and stop outsourcing as it is
occurring across the Federal Government today, and several weeks ago we
were in a hearing where we attempted to talk about not only the impact,
but also how things are occurring in the marketplace today as a result
of the FAIR Act.
I oppose this amendment because I believe that we are waiting to find
out what the results really are. The hearing that we held offered an
opportunity for both sides to provide input.
I believe what this will do today is to shortcut a process that had
begun several years ago, where we are waiting to find out the real-life
examples about how well outsourcing can take place, to where not only
the effect of saving money, but also utilizing the most cost-effective
services, to where we can allow agencies to go and do those things that
are their core competency and to engage themselves in the effectiveness
for government, is what we are after.
I support the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Tom Davis). I think what
the gentleman from Virginia (Chairman Davis) is talking about is
defeating the Wynn amendment because it is shortcutting, short-
circuiting, our ability to hear back a report that is due to us, where
we can make a decision based on the facts of the case and what we are
presently doing.
The CHAIRMAN pro tempore (Mr. Shimkus). Each side has 1\1/2\ minutes
remaining. Because the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Tom Davis) is not a
member of the committee, the gentleman from Maryland (Mr. Wynn) has the
right to close the debate.
Mr. TOM DAVIS of Virginia. Mr. Chairman, I yield 30 seconds to the
gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Moran).
Mr. MORAN of Virginia. Mr. Chairman, I am very much troubled by an
article that was written by Steve Kelman, who was President Clinton's
Director of Federal Procurement Policy in the White House. Many may
know Steve. Mr. Kelman says,
This is not a pretty picture. If this was passed, it could
literally grind government to a halt. What TRAC does is
enormously expand the scope of the Office of Management and
Budget's Circular A-76, and it will include services that
have always been contracted out in the past. It particularly
affects telecommunications services and information
technology. It is a troubling procedure that almost
exclusively focuses on costs, rather than best value, and
demands huge investments of time and resources.
I think that is a troubling assessment from somebody who understands
the issue.
Mr. TOM DAVIS of Virginia. Mr. Chairman, I yield 30 seconds to the
gentleman from Georgia (Mr. Kingston).
Mr. KINGSTON. Mr. Chairman, I want my friend from Maryland to know I
stand in opposition, but reluctant opposition, because I too see a lot
of imperfections with the A-76 study approach. I see a lot of families
getting booted in midlife, mid-career, and often the subcontractors
come back and rebill their costs. So I see a lot of imperfections with
it.
But I do think one of the problems with TRAC and the reason I have
not cosponsored it is because, as the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Tom
Davis) says, you have engineering, a lot of subcontracting, and routine
maintenance and security issues which the Federal Government under this
legislation would not be able to farm out, and those are things the
Federal Government needs to do.
I want to wait for the study, but I wanted my friend from Maryland to
know I want to work with him in the future, but it is important to wait
for the study.
Mr. TOM DAVIS of Virginia. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself the balance
of my time.
Mr. Chairman, I also want to pay tribute to my friend from Maryland,
who I honor and look forward to working with; but on this issue we have
to agree, this amendment is opposed by the ITAA, the American
Electronics Association, the Professional Services Council, and, of
course, the administration.
What this does is expand what is currently reserved for commercial
activities, to Javits-Wagner-O'Day Act, to recompetes in many sources
cases. This could grind outsourcing to a halt. That
[[Page H4599]]
is our concern on this, that it is overly broad.
I intend to work with the gentleman over the next year to try to get
something workable on this. We have held hearings in our committee on
this, but I think this amendment goes too far and it is not in the
interests of the American taxpayer. So I have to urge my colleagues to
disapprove it.
Mr. WYNN. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself the balance of my time.
Mr. Chairman, I would first like to acknowledge the gentleman is
absolutely correct, he has been very generous in attempting to work
with us and allowing us to have hearings on this issue.
I want to make a few brief points that I have to emphasize. One, no
existing contracts will be affected by this amendment; two, if this
work is not currently being done by Federal employees and is in fact
being outsourced and competed among private sector companies, that will
continue. So those concerns probably do not apply.
Now, what we are saying in this amendment is simply this: follow
existing law. Existing law, the FAIR Act, says there shall be
competition, private-public competition or private-private competition.
In the case of Federal employees who are doing a good job, they ought
to have the right to compete to keep their jobs, to do the work and
give the taxpayer best value. If the private sector company can do it
better in terms of value and costs, then the private sector would get
the contract.
Finally, the suggestion has been made that since we are having a GAO
study, we do not need this amendment. I reiterate, this is the law. We
ought to follow it. If the GAO study comes back and says we need to
change the A-76 process, make it less burdensome, I would be the first
one to say that is a good idea and we ought to do that and accommodate
the need to streamline the process.
But competition is good for America, whether it is competition
between two private sector companies or whether it is competition
between hard-working Federal employees with high levels of competence
and private sector employees, companies who want to take their jobs.
Let the competition begin. I believe this amendment is consistent with
that philosophy.
The CHAIRMAN pro tempore. The question is on the amendment offered by
the gentleman from Maryland (Mr. Wynn).
The amendment was rejected.
Mrs. MORELLA. Mr. Chairman, I move to strike the last word.
Mr. Chairman, I move to strike the last word and to lend my support
to the Treasury-Postal appropriations bill before us that we are now
debating and discussing. Although I unfortunately was not able to be on
the floor during general debate, I really want to state my support for
this bill and focus on an important provision that was included by the
committee.
First, I am very pleased that the pay parity language for Federal
employees and the contraceptive coverage for Federal employees were
included during committee markup of this bill. These are necessary
changes. I applaud the committee.
Secondly, I want to thank the chairman for including a 1-year
extension allowing agencies to help low-income employees pay for child
care. Many Federal employees are caught in a serious child care crunch.
A recent study showed that one-quarter of all Federal workers had
children under the age of 6 needing care at some time during the
workday.
{time} 1615
In some Federal child care facilities, employees are charged up to
$10,000 or more per child per year. Many Federal employees simply
cannot afford quality child care. So giving agencies the flexibility to
help their workers meet their child care needs encourages family-
friendly work places and higher productivity.
It is my hope that we can eventually pass a bill that will allow
agencies to be authorized to permanently use money from their salary
and expense accounts to help low-income employees pay for child care. I
have such a bill, H.R. 555, that would do just that. I hope that the
chairman would support me in such an initiative in the future.
Mr. Chairman, I encourage support for the bill.
Amendment No. 5 Offered by Mr. Smith of New Jersey
Mr. SMITH of New Jersey. Mr. Chairman, I offer an amendment.
The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will designate the amendment.
The text of the amendment is as follows:
Amendment No. 5 offered by Mr. Smith of New Jersey:
At the end of the bill, insert after the last section
(preceding the short title) the following new section:
Sec. ____. None of the funds made available in this Act may
be used to administer or enforce part 515 of title 31, Code
of Federal Regulations (the Cuban Assets Control Regulations)
with respect to any travel or travel-related transaction,
after the President has certified to Congress that the Cuban
Government has released all political prisoners and has
returned to the jurisdiction of the United States Government
all persons residing in Cuba who are sought by the United
States Government for the crimes of air piracy, narcotics
trafficking, or murder.
The CHAIRMAN pro tempore (Mr. Shimkus). Pursuant to the order of the
House of today, the gentleman from New Jersey (Mr. Smith) and a Member
opposed each will control 10 minutes.
The Chair recognizes the gentleman from New Jersey (Mr. Smith).
Mr. SMITH of New Jersey. Mr. Chairman, might I inquire whether or not
the gentleman from Arizona (Mr. Flake) will offer his amendment now,
and then the time will be equally divided?
The CHAIRMAN pro tempore. Does the gentleman from Arizona (Mr. Flake)
wish to offer his amendment at this time?
Mr. FLAKE. No, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN pro tempore. Does the gentleman from New Jersey (Mr.
Rothman) seek the time in opposition to the amendment of the gentleman
from New Jersey (Mr. Smith)?
Mr. ROTHMAN. No, Mr. Chairman. I am sharing time with the gentleman
from New Jersey (Mr. Smith).
The CHAIRMAN pro tempore. Is there a Member seeking time in
opposition?
Mr. FLAKE. Mr. Chairman, I seek the time in opposition.
The CHAIRMAN pro tempore. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from New
Jersey (Mr. Smith) for 10 minutes.
Mr. SMITH of New Jersey. Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent that
the gentleman from New Jersey (Mr. Rothman), my good friend and
colleague and coauthor of this amendment, be allowed to control half of
my time.
The CHAIRMAN. Is there objection to the request of the gentleman from
New Jersey?
There was no objection.
Mr. SMITH of New Jersey. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself 2 minutes and
15 seconds.
Among the largest new sources of revenue we could possibly provide
the Castro regime at this point would be large scale United States
tourism. So I and the gentleman from New Jersey (Mr. Rothman) are
offering this human rights amendment in the hope that any lifting of
remaining travel restrictions to Cuba will be done carefully and
thoughtfully with some regard to the consequences.
Mr. Chairman, it is important to be honest about what we are talking
about when we talk about tourism to Cuba. The dictatorship gets rich--
filthy rich--let us make no mistake about that, and will go on its
merry way in arresting, beating, and torturing political dissidents.
Let me just point out, Mr. Chairman, that Human Rights Watch, in its
report, and I urge Members to read it, makes the point that conditions
in Cuba's prisons are inhuman. In recent years, Cuba has added new
repressive laws.
Torture is commonplace in Cuba, and ugly beyond words. There is no
freedom of speech or assembly in Cuba. The people of Cuba have no right
to emigrate. And dissent continues to be suppressed with unspeakable
cruelty. In light of this we should lift the travel ban. And to make
matters worse, there is another outrageous lucrative form of travel to
Cuba called sex tourism. Cuba is on the short list of destinations for
middle-aged men looking for inexpensive commercial sex, including
sexual exploitation by children, which is actively condoned by the
government. We should have no part whatsoever in facilitating this kind
of exploitation.
I want to make very clear, Mr. Chairman, that under current U.S.
policy vis-a-vis Cuba much travel is permitted. As a result of
Clinton's soft
[[Page H4600]]
and feckless policy towards Cuba, Americans can and do travel to Cuba
for certain purposes: journalism, educational purposes, humanitarian
missions, government business, sick family members, and the list goes
on. The amendment I propose today focuses on the tourist industry and
whether or not reasonable, modest conditions should be imposed before
we lift that particular travel ban.
Our amendment has two conditions: the Cuban government should return
the violent criminals who have escaped American justice and who are
currently hiding out in Cuba. The case of Joanne Chesimard is
particularly egregious. Chesimard was sentenced to life for the murder
of a New Jersey State Trooper, Werner Foerster, but is now living it up
in Cuba. She--and scores of other murderers and air pirates and drug
smugglers--must be returned to the U.S. to serve their time behind
bars.
The second condition, Mr. Chairman, has to do with the release of
hundreds of political prisoners. The State Department's Country Reports
estimates that there are between 300-400 political prisoners, and they
are being mistreated, tortured and abused. Before we give the green
light to tourism en masse, before we head to Havana with bathing suits
in our bags and fun and diversion on our minds, let's not forget the
persecuted and the oppressed.
Let us not abandon, undermine or betray some of the most courageous
dissidents on the face of the earth.
We should lift the travel ban, if and only if all political prisoners
are released. We should lift the travel ban, only when all cop killers
and felons convicted in the U.S. are back in U.S. prisons.
Vote ``no'' on Flake and ``yes'' on Smith-Rothman.
Mr. Chairman, I reserve the balance of my time.
Amendment Offered by Mr. Flake as a Substitute for Amendment No. 5
Offered by Mr. Smith of New Jersey
Mr. FLAKE. Mr. Chairman, I offer an amendment as a substitute for the
amendment.
The Clerk read as follows:
Amendment offered by Mr. Flake as a substitute for
amendment No. 5 offered by Mr. Smith of New Jersey:
At the end of the bill, insert after the last section
(preceding the short title) the following new section:
Sec. 644. (a) None of the funds made available in this Act
may be used to administer or enforce part 515 of title 31,
Code of Federal Regulations (the Cuban Assets Control
Regulations) with respect to any travel or travel-related
transaction.
(b) The limitation established in subsection (a) shall not
apply to transactions in relation to any business travel
covered by section 515.560(g) of such part 515.
Mr. FLAKE (during the reading). Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent
that the amendment be considered as read and printed in the Record.
The CHAIRMAN pro tempore. Is there objection to the request of the
gentleman from Arizona?
There was no objection.
The CHAIRMAN pro tempore. Pursuant to the order of the House of
today, the gentleman from Arizona (Mr. Flake) and the gentleman from
New Jersey (Mr. Smith) each will control 10 additional minutes.
Mr. SMITH of New Jersey. Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent to
divide my time with the gentleman from New Jersey (Mr. Rothman).
The CHAIRMAN pro tempore. Is there objection to the request of the
gentleman from New Jersey?
There was no objection.
The CHAIRMAN pro tempore. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from
Arizona (Mr. Flake).
Mr. FLAKE. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
I rise in support of this substitute in the form of an amendment. As
we grew up in school, we were told that the difference between us and
other nations is that we would allow our citizens to travel anywhere
they want to. We could travel the world, see other cultures, visit
other countries, without fear that we would find something better.
Here, we are being told that that is not right.
I as a government official can travel to Cuba, but if someone in my
family or some of my friends at home or others want to travel to Cuba,
they have to seek a license. Now, that is wrong.
This amendment simply states that we ought to allow everybody the
same privilege that we have as government officials. They ought to be
able to travel to Cuba. We allow individuals to travel to North Korea.
There are terrible human rights abuses going on there. We allow
individuals to go to Sudan. There is human slavery going on in Sudan,
probably discovered by people going there on visits. We allow people to
go to Iran. Iran considers us the ``Great Satan'' and has been
implicated in State-sponsored terrorism. But somehow, we still do not
allow our citizens to go to Cuba. That is simply wrong.
Now, Fidel Castro, let us stipulate from the very beginning, is a
tyrant, and we ought to stipulate that from the beginning and decide
how best can we bring change to that island. The best way, I believe,
is through engagement, not isolation.
Mr. Chairman, I reserve the balance of my time.
Mr. ROTHMAN. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
First let me thank the gentleman from New Jersey (Mr. Smith), my
distinguished friend, who is really a national leader around the world
for human rights, and it is a privilege to be a coauthor of this
amendment with him.
In 1973, Mr. Chairman, New Jersey State Trooper Werner Foerster was
shot in the back of the head on a New Jersey highway. A New Jersey
jury, after its deliberations, convicted Joanne Chesimard of first
degree murder and sentenced her to life in prison for the death of New
Jersey State Trooper Foerster. She escaped prison and she went to Cuba
where she now resides and lives freely. She is one of over 77 convicted
felons living in freedom in Cuba. We cannot get her back. Why not?
Castro will not send back those Americans convicted of crimes in
America, including murder and air piracy; he will not permit them to
come back.
Now, some of my colleagues, good and decent people all, wish and
believe forthrightly that travel restrictions should be lifted on Cuba.
They say it hurts Americans.
Well, we have sanctions on all kinds of countries. We had it on
Libya, we just voted on that yesterday; Libya and Iran, and other
countries who do terrible things to our people. Cuba is doing the same.
Think of the widow and the orphaned son of Trooper Foerster and those
families of the other victims of the 77 felons still in Cuba. How would
we answer them when my colleagues say, well, let us release and do away
with all restrictions on travel to Cuba. They have no good answer.
Castro must release those individuals and then we can have free trade
with Cuba. We already have some trade and travel with Cuba; we need the
stick and carrot approach. Castro needs to return those convicts to
serve their time in America.
Mr. Chairman, I reserve the balance of my time.
Mr. FLAKE. Mr. Chairman, I yield 2 minutes to the gentleman from
Massachusetts (Mr. McGovern).
Mr. McGOVERN. Mr. Chairman, I rise in strong support of the
substitute amendment offered by the gentleman from Arizona (Mr. Flake)
to ensure that no funds in this bill may be used to enforce travel
sanctions on Cuba.
Mr. Chairman, in January of 1998, I was in Cuba to witness the
historic visit by Pope John Paul II. During his time in Cuba, the Pope
declared ``May Cuba, with all its magnificent potential, open itself to
the world and may the world open itself up to Cuba.''
Mr. Chairman, whenever I travel to Cuba, I try to meet with Ekizardo
Sanchez, one of the most respected dissidents inside Cuba and someone
who actually spent 8\1/2\ years in a Cuban prison. Mr. Sanchez has
repeatedly stated, ``The more Americans on the streets of Cuban cities,
the better for the cause of a more open society in Cuba.''
I firmly believe that unrestricted travel by Americans to Cuba would
be one of the best actions the United States could take to open
political space for all Cubans. Most importantly, however, I support
this amendment because I firmly believe it is the right of all
Americans to be able to travel wherever they wish.
The current sanctions on travel to Cuba are undemocratic and go
against the traditions and the values that make the United States of
America so
[[Page H4601]]
great and so respected in the eyes of the world community. The American
people are not fools. They should be able to see firsthand both the
good and the bad about today's Cuba. They do not need the United States
Government to censor what they can see.
I trust the American people. I believe in their right to travel
freely. I should also add that I have met with countless Cuban
Americans who believe they should have the right to visit their
relatives in Cuba any time they want and not just when some bureaucrat
at the Treasury Department says they can.
Last year, this amendment passed with strong bipartisan support. I
urge my colleagues to support the Flake substitute. This is the right
thing to do. I hope it will be passed with a very strong vote.
Mr. SMITH of New Jersey. Mr. Chairman, I yield 2 minutes to the
distinguished gentlewoman from Florida (Ms. Ros-Lehtinen), the
chairwoman of the Subcommittee on International Human Rights.
Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Mr. Chairman, I rise in strong opposition to the
Flake amendment because it would prolong the suffering and the
oppression of the Cuban people under the totalitarian Castro regime,
and I support the Smith amendment, because it would deny the Cuban
dictatorship additional funds to host killers of U.S. police officers,
cop killers such as Joanne Chesimard, who gunned down, in cold blood,
New Jersey State Trooper Werner Foerster, or those who murdered New
Mexico State trooper, James Harper.
The Flake amendment, however, would help keep those and other
fugitives of U.S. justice in the lap of luxury, fugitives wanted for
murder, for kidnapping, for armed robbery, among other terrible crimes.
The Fraternal Order of Police has said this about attempts such as
the Flake amendment: ``The American people and the Fraternal Order of
Police do not feel that we must compromise our system of justice and
the fabric of our society to foreign dictators like Fidel Castro.''
I oppose the Flake amendment because it would provide that Communist
regime with much-needed hard currency to extend its reign of terror.
{time} 1630
This amendment would help propagate a system of slave labor, where 95
percent of workers' wages are retained by the dictatorship, where the
workers have no individual or collective rights as they must remain
subservient to the Communist party and the upper cadres of the
tyrannical regime.
The Flake amendment would help promote a tourist industry built on
prostitution, particularly teenaged prostitution, and the exploitation
of women. In fact, Cuba's tyrant Fidel Castro has boasted to his
national assembly that highly educated jineteras, who are prostitutes,
have low rates of AIDS, and, therefore, there is no tourism healthier
than Cuba's. This appeared in the July, 2000, edition of the New
Republic.
I rise in support of the Smith amendment because he does not ignore
political prisoners, such as Dr. Oscar Elias Biscet, Vladimiro Roca,
and Jorge Luis Garcia Perez, who languish in squalid jail cells in
isolation, devoid of any light.
I ask my colleagues to search their conscience, to listen to the
echoes of America's Founding Fathers who understood that when one
people suffer, all of humanity suffers.
Mr. FLAKE. Mr. Chairman, I yield 1 minute to the gentleman from Idaho
(Mr. Otter).
Mr. OTTER. Mr. Chairman, I rise in strong support of the Flake
amendment. Many years ago, Hans J. Morganthau once said that when food
does not cross borders, troops will. What he meant by that is the basic
of all relationships is really trade and commerce.
I sincerely believe that not only what Hans J. Morganthau said, but
also what one of my predecessors, Congressman Steve Symms, said when
the Carter administration first shut down free and available travel
between the United States and Cuba.
He said, if we truly want to change Cuba, if we truly want there to
be a revolution, what we should do is load up a B-52 bomber and fly
over the Cuban island and open those bomb doors and allow millions of
Sears Roebuck catalogs to fall on Cuba. And when those Cubans opened
those catalogues and see what they do not have, Mr. Chairman, they will
cause their own revolution.
Mr. Chairman, let us open the doors and let the light shine in.
Instead of taking our word for it, the American people can go find out
for themselves.
Mr. ROTHMAN. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself 30 seconds.
Mr. Chairman, I ask my colleagues who wish to support the Flake
amendment, how did my colleagues just vote on the Iran-Libya Sanctions
Act? Did they say, we do not need sanctions? Did they say, we do not
need sanctions? No, they said, in some circumstances, sanctions are
appropriate.
In this case, we need sanctions to make sure that Castro returns the
killer convicted by an American jury, sentenced to life for the bullet
in the back of the head to a New Jersey State trooper, and the 76 other
convicted felons he is harboring in Cuba living free.
Mr. FLAKE. Mr. Chairman, I yield 2 minutes to the gentleman from
California (Mr. Berman).
(Mr. BERMAN asked and was given permission to revise and extend his
remarks.)
Mr. BERMAN. Mr. Chairman, I thank the gentleman for yielding time to
me.
Mr. Chairman, I would say to my friend, the gentleman from New
Jersey, he keeps confusing sanctions with travel bans.
The gentleman has supported, this body has supported, a law which has
been in effect now for 7 years which says, when we impose sanctions, we
can no longer restrict the right of Americans to travel. Iran
sanctions, yes. Banning Americans from going to Iran, no. That is
existing Federal law.
I hear and I understand the evils of the Castro regime and the
stories. Are they worse than any of the stories of the gulag in the
Soviet Union, or Communist China during the cultural revolution, or
North Korea, or any other place where Americans have an unimpeded
right, and always did, to travel? Why? Because it is in America's
foreign policy interest to establish contact with the people of those
countries. People-to-people diplomacy is the most effective diplomacy.
Why is Castro still in and the Soviet Union collapsed? What a great
policy we have. He is the longest-standing leader in the world. Boy,
has American policy worked.
By the way, to my friends on the other side of the aisle, people who
make compelling arguments frequently about the absurdity of some
government regulation, the notion that a Federal agency, the Office of
Foreign Assets Control, decides who can go and who cannot go, whether
we like the purpose of the trip or whether we do not.
Micromanaging the details of the individual American's right to go to
a place and establish those contacts I suggest to Members is totally
inconsistent and an anathema to the entire philosophy of the GOP party.
This is the most absurd kind of regulation, that seeks to determine
which relatives have positive purposes, which people have negative
purposes.
It does not work. Government cannot handle that. This is a relic of
another time. Make this Cuba situation the same as Iran, Russia, all
the other authoritarian regimes where Americans are permitted to
exercise their constitutional right to travel. Vote for the substitute
and against the underlying amendment.
Mr. SMITH of New Jersey. Mr. Chairman, I yield 2 minutes to the
distinguished gentleman from Staten Island, New York (Mr. Fossella).
(Mr. FOSSELLA asked and was given permission to revise and extend his
remarks.)
Mr. FOSSELLA. Mr. Chairman, I thank the gentleman from New Jersey for
yielding time to me.
I just want to talk about three people. Their names are Rocco Laurie,
Werner Foerster, and Joanne Chesimard.
Rocco Laurie was born in Staten Island. He joined the police
department in the late 1960s and then enlisted in the Marine Corps and
went to Vietnam. He came back to rejoin the police department.
He was married in May of 1970; and, in 1972, he and his partner were
on a foot patrol in the lower East Side of Manhattan. His partner was
shot eight times in the back and was killed instantly. Rocco Laurie was
shot seven times. He died 5 hours later.
[[Page H4602]]
Werner Foerster was a State trooper who was shot twice in the chest
and then, execution style, twice in the head by Joanne Chesimard.
Joanne Chesimard was convicted and then fled the United States and
lives, I guess, as a hero in Cuba.
Recently, a couple of months ago, her companion so many years ago was
arrested. He has now brought forward charges and reports that Joanne
Chesimard was involved in planning the assassination and killing of
police officers Rocco Laurie and Foerster, who were gunned down more
than 30 years ago.
Is it too much to ask that we declare and demand of Fidel Castro that
he send someone like Joanne Chesimard back to the United States before
we pay him these courtesies? Do we not owe it to the honor of their
families, their legacies, their wives, their police department, the
communities from which they came? Is that too much to ask?
I think that is the purpose here. Send those cop killers back, people
who robbed innocent people of their lives, so that then we can go about
our travel. That is fair and reasonable.
Mr. FLAKE. Mr. Chairman, I yield 2 minutes to the gentleman from
Kansas (Mr. Moran).
Mr. MORAN of Kansas. Mr. Chairman, I thank the gentleman for yielding
time to me.
I am somewhat surprised by my presence today on the House floor. It
was a year ago this month in which we addressed the issue of Cuba and
the opportunity to sell agricultural commodities, food, and medicine to
that country. By an overwhelming vote of both parties in this House,
this amendment was passed. Ultimately, through a long process, that
amendment is being implemented, and rules and regulations have been
announced by the Department of Treasury for us to comment on, and the
opportunity for that trade, at least in theory, is now taking place.
In that same time frame, an amendment was offered to do what the
gentleman from Arizona attempts to accomplish today, and by a vote of
232 to 186 we all agreed that travel to Cuba should be allowed. Yet
that part of the day's activities a year ago remains to be implemented.
So I rise today to support the gentleman from Arizona in his effort
to open the opportunity.
My interest in this topic began really in a selfish way, in trying to
find a way to create additional markets for the farmers of my State, a
place to export their agriculture commodities. But as I addressed and
concerned myself with this issue, it became clear to me that this is
something more than just about the self-interest of trade and exports
of agriculture commodities to Cuba. It is about Cuban people. It is
about freedom. It is about democracy. This is about the opportunity of
changing a way of life.
In Kansas, we will try something once. If it fails, we very well may
try it again, but if it fails a second time, we are going to be a
little more skeptical. Maybe by the third time after failure we will
decide to try something new.
For 42 years we have tried to change the government of Cuba, and we
have failed. It is time for us to try something different that actually
may work. It is time for a change. So Kansans with their common sense
would say, okay, we tried, it does not work. Is there not something
else we can do?
All of us want to change. Everyone that I have heard speak today
wants to change the behavior of the government in Cuba. The question
is, how we do it? What we have done does not work. I rise in support of
the substitute offered by the gentleman from Arizona.
Secretary of State Colin Powell said that we will participate in
activities with Cuba that benefit the people. I have now met with the
dissidents of Cuba who say that this is the right policy and that we
can change the behavior of the country for the benefit of the Cuban
people. I ask that we try something new today.
Mr. ROTHMAN. Mr. Chairman, I yield 1 minute to the gentleman from
Florida (Mr. Wexler).
Mr. WEXLER. Mr. Chairman, I thank the gentleman for yielding time to
me.
Mr. Chairman, I rise in support of the Smith-Rothman amendment and in
opposition to the Flake amendment. People of good will can have
different opinions regarding the efficacy of easing restrictions,
travel restrictions on Cuba. But certain facts are undeniable and are
undebatable:
First, Cuban citizens enjoy no rights of free speech;
Second, there have been and there is no prospect of there being any
democratic free elections in Cuba;
Third, as has been already pointed out, Cuba holds hundreds of
political prisoners who are only guilty of being people of conscience;
And, fourth, Castro continues to disrespect in its entirety any basic
level of human rights for his own people.
Then, on the other hand, the gentleman from Arizona (Mr. Flake)
argues that, although that may be true, the way to change that is for
more Americans to go to Cuba and allow more cash into Cuba.
I only wish that were true. If it were true, it already would have
occurred, because Europeans and South Americans and people all over the
world have been travelling to Cuba for years.
Mr. FLAKE. Mr. Chairman, I yield 2 minutes to the gentleman from New
York (Mr. Rangel).
Mr. RANGEL. Mr. Chairman, I thank the gentleman for yielding time to
me. I rise in support of his amendment.
Mr. Chairman, it is not difficult to support the positions that are
taken by both sides here, those who have convicted murderers in Cuba
and would want to see that they meet justice here in the United States.
For those, it would seem to me that the best way to do it is the way
we do it with other countries, and that is to have extradition
treaties. We cannot have that unless we are trying to have some
relationship, unless we are trying to talk to people.
What you are doing here really is not beating up on Fidel Castro. He
could care less what we are talking about here today.* * * You are
saying that we do not trust Americans.
Mr. SMITH of New Jersey. My amendment is not disgracing anybody. I
deeply resent it. * * *
Mr. RANGEL. I think the gentleman is out of order.
Mr. SMITH of New Jersey. The gentleman's disrespect is out of order.
Mr. RANGEL. I am telling you this, that Americans----
Mr. SMITH of New Jersey. I ask that words be taken down, Mr.
Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. The gentlemen will suspend.
Would the gentleman from New Jersey again state his request of the
Chair?
Mr. SMITH of New Jersey. I would ask that the words that we were
disgracing the American people with this amendment be taken down.
First, I would ask that those words be read back.
The CHAIRMAN. Members will be seated.
The gentleman from New York (Mr. Rangel) will be seated.
The Clerk will report the words.
{time} 1645
Mr. RANGEL. Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent that my words be
withdrawn.
The CHAIRMAN. Is there objection to the request of the gentleman from
New York?
There was no objection.
The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman's words are withdrawn.
We will now proceed in order, and the gentleman from New York (Mr.
Rangel) has 45 second remaining of the time that was yielded to him by
the gentleman from Arizona (Mr. Flake).
Mr. RANGEL. Mr. Chairman, I would like to make it abundantly clear to
the gentleman from New Jersey (Mr. Smith) that the concept that I think
is disgraceful has nothing to do with individuals but has something to
do with the American people having the right, in my opinion, to visit
any country that they would want to visit.
I really believe that it is very bad policy for Americans, who are
able to go to China, able to go to North Korea, able to go into Moscow,
to be able to say that we are this fearful that we will be overwhelmed
by the people, the good people in Cuba, or by Fidel Castro or by the
military. So it seems to me that it is really offensive to the American
people for someone to say that they have such little confidence in
their willpower to succumb to communism in Cuba when we are strong
enough, we are the strongest Nation in the entire world, to be able to
say that flag that flies so hard is our flag.
[[Page H4602]]
Mr. ROTHMAN. Mr. Chairman, I yield 1 minute to the gentleman from
Missouri (Mr. Blunt).
Mr. BLUNT. Mr. Chairman, I thank the gentleman for yielding me this
time, and I rise in opposition to the amendment that my friend, the
gentleman from Arizona (Mr. Flake), has presented, and certainly in
support of the amendment offered by the gentleman from New Jersey (Mr.
Rothman) and the gentleman from New Jersey (Mr. Smith) before the body
today.
Cuba is different. Cuba is 90 miles away. It is in this hemisphere.
The Secretary of State of the United States says Cuba is different in
treatment on these issues. The President of the United States says Cuba
is different in treatment on these issues. Within the last 2 weeks, the
President has said that the United States stands opposed to such
tyranny, talking about Cuba, and will oppose any attempt to weaken
sanctions against the Castro regime until it respects the basic human
rights of its citizens, frees political prisoners, holds democratic
free elections, and allows free speech.
That is a higher standard than even the gentleman from New Jersey
(Mr. Rothman) and the gentleman from New Jersey (Mr. Smith) have put
forth in this amendment. This is a sanction. Clearly, it is a travel
sanction; but it is a sanction on a country that is the only
dictatorship in our hemisphere.
Mr. Chairman, 77 convicted U.S. felons are in Cuba, people who have
killed police officers are in Cuba, people on the FBI's 10 most wanted
list are in Cuba. We need to have respect for our rule of law before we
move forward with this kind of change in policy.
Mr. FLAKE. Mr. Chairman, I yield 2 minutes to the gentleman from
Indiana (Mr. Roemer).
Mr. ROEMER. Mr. Chairman, I thank the gentleman for yielding me this
time, and I rise in strong support of his amendment.
Mr. Chairman, Cuba is a country roughly the size of Pennsylvania with
a population approximately double the size of Indiana, about 12 million
people. Yet with our failed policy of the last 40 years, we have
elevated Castro and Cuba to China or Russia proportion. With our
foreign policy, we trade with Russia. We let our people travel to
Russia. We trade with China. We let our people travel to China. And we
should be doing the same with respect to our foreign policy and Cuba.
There are three good reasons to vote for the Flake amendment: first
of all, for our constitution. Our citizens' constitutional rights
should not be trampled upon, forbidding them from travel to Cuba; but
we should allow them to travel with the Constitution and take it to
Cuba and show our freedoms and our liberties and other respect for
human rights.
Secondly, having just been down to Cuba 2 months ago, having met with
representatives of the Catholic Church, dissidents, human rights'
leaders, people that have been in prison, what do they think about
lifting the travel embargo? They are for it. Now, we can talk all
around this issue in this great Chamber, but what about the people that
are most affected by this policy? They want us to lift the travel
embargo, the people that are dissidents and human rights' leaders and
leaders of the church in Cuba.
Thirdly, Castro. Castro uses this trade and travel embargo to blame
us for his problems. Let us open up the system to American ideas of
human rights, free markets, capitalism, respect for one another and for
the right to vote. Let us try and change after 40 years of failure. Let
us vote for the Flake amendment.
{time} 1700
Mr. ROTHMAN. Mr. Chairman, I yield 1 minute to the gentleman from
Florida (Mr. Deutsch).
Mr. DEUTSCH. Mr. Chairman, this is an issue that, from my district at
least, is a local issue. I represent a district that is 90 miles from
the shores of Cuba and people visit under the existing process right
now.
But one of the things that has been talked about, as recently as my
last colleague who spoke, many of my colleagues have visited Cuba and
they have met with dissidents and they have stayed in hotels. One of
the things they are probably not aware of is that no Cuban is legally
allowed to eat and enter a hotel in Cuba. They might have eaten with
one of the so-called dissidents, but it was illegal under Cuba law, and
the only reason why they could is because they are a Member of
Congress.
Cuba is treated differently. But there is no other name on the list
that people have offered that is 90 miles from our shore, but also has
a unique system that Cuba has.
People have talked about Castro being in power for a long time. In
many ways this dictatorship has been the most controlling in the world.
If we look at the process of tourism and what keeps the Castro
dictatorship around is, in fact, hard dollars. Passing the Flake
amendment would, in fact, enable Castro to continue.
Mr. FLAKE. Mr. Chairman, I yield 2 minutes to the gentleman from
Massachusetts (Mr. Delahunt).
Mr. DELAHUNT. Mr. Chairman, 10 years in prison, a criminal fine of
$250,000, a $50,000 civil penalty. Are these punishments for bank
robbers, ax murderers, Al Capone, John Dillinger? No. No. This is what
can happen to a United States citizen exercising his or her
constitutional right to travel to Cuba without a license.
What is this license? In this case it is permission. Permission from
our own government to exercise a fundamental constitutional right. We
are treating our own citizens like school children who need permission
to leave their classroom. We would expect this from the Cuban
government, not from the government of the United States.
In fact, what we have done is erect our own Berlin Wall preventing
free travel of American citizens. To paraphrase a former president,
President Reagan, it is time to tear the wall down.
The travel ban has allowed our preoccupation with Fidel Castro to
undermine a fundamental constitutional right. So let us invade Cuba,
again, but let us do it this time with academics, missionaries,
investors, human rights activists, and tourists. Let the college kids
on spring break be the vanguard of this invasion. I know and I am
confident that the result will be victory for the Americans and for the
Cubans.
Mr. SMITH of New Jersey. Mr. Chairman, I yield 2 minutes to the
gentleman from Florida (Mr. Diaz-Balart).
Mr. DIAZ-BALART. Mr. Chairman, I was having a conversation with a
colleague last night about this issue. He said a dissident came from
Cuba and lobbied against the embargo. I tried to point out that if the
totalitarian regime in Cuba allows one to come to the United States to
lobby against sanctions against the dictatorship, it is with precise
permission. If, however, one is truly seeking democracy, they are
thrown in a dungeon or thrown out of the country or executed.
So what the Smith-Rothman amendment is saying is before the $5
billion a year, at least, in American tourism is sent to the
dictatorship, let the representatives of the Cuban people, the leaders
of the political parties, let them out of prison, and the cop killers
and other fugitives from American justice including Joanne Chesimard
and the other ones that the gentleman from New York (Mr. Fossella) so
eloquently was talking about, send them back and do not have them
living in protected luxury by the totalitarian regime 90 miles away.
That is all the Smith-Rothman amendment is saying.
It is not a question of insulting anyone's intelligence. It is a
question of saying the people who represent the Cuban people, who are
in prison today have a right to be free, and those who kill American
cops and sell drugs and are terrorists have a need to be in prison in
the United States.
Vote for Smith-Rothman. Vote against the gentleman from Arizona (Mr.
Flake).
Mr. FLAKE. Mr. Chairman, I yield 2 minutes to the gentleman from
California (Mr. Thompson).
Mr. THOMPSON of California. Mr. Chairman, I rise in strong support of
the Flake substitute amendment and I do so because our current policy
towards Cuba is a relic and it needs to be updated.
It should be a priority of this Congress to change any program or any
policy if it is deemed to be unsuccessful. Yet, we have allowed 40
years of unsuccessful public policy, and we have done next to nothing
to improve it.
One way to foster change is through this amendment of our colleague
from
[[Page H4603]]
Arizona. The amendment would prohibit Treasury funds from being used to
regulate the travel of American citizens to Cuba. It would effectively
open up Cuba's borders for the free world and for free world ideas.
Mr. Chairman, when I came to Congress, it is fair to say that I was
inclined to believe that we needed to reassess our relationship with
Cuba. After visiting Cuba myself this year and meeting with the
fantastic people of that country, I returned convinced that our policy
is wrong. Americans want to travel to Cuba by an overwhelming 66
percent. Doing so will be good not only for the Cuban people and for
Cuba, but it will be good for our country. Maintaining the status quo
will do nothing to foster democracy in Cuba. We need to speak strongly
today on the floor to reverse 40 years, 40 years of unsuccessful public
policy. We need to tear down this travel ban, and we need to allow
Americans to travel freely to other countries.
Mr. ROTHMAN. Mr. Chairman, I yield 3\1/4\ minutes to the gentleman
from New Jersey (Mr. Menendez), the distinguished ranking member of the
Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere.
(Mr. MENENDEZ asked and was given permission to revise and extend his
remarks.)
Mr. MENENDEZ. Mr. Chairman, I have heard the voices of those who
think Fidel Castro is a great guy; and I have heard the voices of those
who want to do business in Cuba at any price, regardless what that
price is. Americans love to travel, but they love democracy and human
rights, and they love that more than anything else because they enjoy
it more than any other country in the world.
The belief that Americans can change Castro through tourism flies in
the face of millions of visitors from Canada, Mexico, Spain, Europe,
Latin America and other parts of the world who over the last decade
have visited Cuba and have not had one iota of change towards democracy
and human rights.
We are a great people, but to believe that we uniquely possess the
one key that can unlock, the changing of the mind of Fidel Castro, is
to be incredulous.
What this amendment would do if adopted, it would take a law and let
it lawlessly be violated because we would have no enforcement funds to
prosecute that law. If you do not believe that the law is legit, change
the law. But do not act lawlessly by saying we will not enforce a law
that exists on the books.
Mr. Chairman, it will open the floodgate of dollars to Fidel Castro's
Cuba. If the American people knew that 60 percent of Cuba's GDP goes to
a tourism industry that is a state-run operation, a tourism industry by
which Fidel Castro owns 50 percent of all of the foreign hotels and all
of the Dollar Stores, which are inflated, to gouge tourists who go,
they would say no, I will not visit there.
If, in fact, they knew that tourism does not go on behalf of the
Cuban people but goes on behalf of the state, they would not go there.
If they knew when they visit those hotels and tourist spots that the
workers there cannot be hired directly by that foreign company, but is
hired by the state employment agency sent there for which the state
employment agency is paid in dollars, and Cubans are paid in worthless
pesos, which is the equivalent of slave labor, to those of my
colleagues who believe in the trade labor movement and labor rights,
they must vote for the Smith amendment and against the Flake amendment.
For those who believe that, in fact, opening up the flood gates, as
is suggested, and I do have great faith in Americans, but what happens
when they go to Cuba, suggestions that tourism will facilitate
visitation and engagement with human rights activists, political
dissidents and independent journalists should be dispelled by the fact
that Cuban law makes it a crime against the state to engage human
rights activists and political dissidents. And believe me, that law is
enforced.
Ask the two Czech citizens, one a parliamentarian and the other a
journalist, who traveled to Cuba as tourists and were engaged with
human rights activists, and were imprisoned.
Mr. Chairman, sunning one's self on the sand and surf on Varadero
Beach, taking in a show at the Tropicana, smoking a Cohiba and sipping
a Cuba Libre may indulge the fantasies of some, but it will not bring
democracy to the Cuban people, it will not bring freedom to the Cuban
people, and it will not bring respect for the human rights for those
people in Cuba.
Mr. FLAKE. Mr. Chairman, I yield 2 minutes to the gentleman from
Virginia (Mr. Moran).
Mr. MORAN of Virginia. Mr. Chairman, I thank the gentleman from
Arizona for his amendment. It is the right thing to do.
Mr. Chairman, I have not heard anybody on this floor suggest, as my
friend from New Jersey stated, that we think Fidel Castro is a great
guy. I do not know where that came from. Nobody has suggested that. I
do not think anybody comes close to believing that. We know he is a
dictator. There is no question about that.
But we want the idea of American freedom to find its fruition in Cuba
as well as America. This travel restriction is un-American. Americans
should be able to travel any place they want. And as they travel, they
communicate with the citizens of other countries. When the Cuban people
see the way we live because of what we believe in, that is going to
topple the dictatorship.
Forty years. How long does it take to realize that a policy is not
working? Our current Cuba policy has not worked. Let us build upon the
freedoms that every American citizen represents when they travel
someplace else.
Let me suggest to my colleagues that the historical context should be
considered here as well. If it had not been for the way that the former
regime had treated the Cuban people, the Communist Revolution could not
have succeeded. The Batista government treated many of the Cuban people
miserably, particularly its darkest-skinned citizens. That history has
a lot to do with why Fidel Castro is still in power today.
Now it is time to try a different approach. Now it is time to let,
yes, our students; imagine what would happen if they went to Cuba on a
spring break. Fidel Castro would have nightmares over that threat.
But when Cubans see the way we live here, that is what is going to
bring freedom to Cuba, and that is what is going to enable us to trade
with Cuba, and that is what is going to enable us to have a real
neighbor that we can work with.
Mr. Chairman, 40 years is too long. It is time to realize that the
policy we are using today is not working. Let us try a new one. Let us
pass this amendment.
Mr. ROTHMAN. Mr. Chairman, I yield 1\1/4\ minutes to myself.
Mr. Chairman, there are several points I would like to make. Number
one, there has been some statement that restriction on travel to Cuba
would be unconstitutional. That is incorrect.
The United States Supreme Court has twice ruled that travel
restrictions on Cuba, on Americans traveling to Cuba, is
constitutional: Zemel v. Rusk in 1965, Regan v. Wald in 1984.
Forget the Constitution, we just exaggerated saying it is
unconstitutional, is it the right policy choice? That is a fair
question.
Mr. Chairman, I believe it is the right policy choice, and we choose
to impose different treatment to different countries based on our own
belief of what is fair and what will work.
{time} 1715
Make no mistake about it. There is some travel now to Cuba. If we
eliminate all those restrictions, Castro will benefit by $5 billion in
American hard currency.
Do we want to let him say 40 years of totalitarian rule will be
rewarded with this? Treatment of your political prisoners will be
rewarded with billions of dollars of American cash? Your failure to
return cop killers, people who were convicted by juries in America,
juries of their peers, of first degree murder, sentenced to life and
Castro holds them in luxury and freedom down there and will not release
them? What is the message we send to American law enforcement, State
and local, about what we will do if they get killed by someone who then
seeks refuge in Cuba?
Mr. FLAKE. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself the balance of my time.
[[Page H4604]]
Mr. Chairman, this has been a great debate. I said at the beginning
that we ought to stipulate that Fidel Castro is a tyrant, that he is a
liar, but I am surprised that those who agree with me on that are so
eager to accept the notion that he wants tourism, that he wants more
trade. I would submit that he does not.
When I was a child and my room was messy, the last thing I wanted was
for my mother to come in. You do not want people to come in. So why
should we take Fidel Castro's word for it? We ought to send our people
there.
Let me just close by saying, it has been said that people can have
differing opinions on this subject. They certainly can. Those who
believe in isolation have had the last 40 years. It is time for those
who feel differently to enact a new policy and move forward. If freedom
is what we want for the Cuban people, let us exercise a little more of
it ourselves.
Mr. SMITH of New Jersey. Mr. Chairman, I yield the balance of my time
to the gentleman from Texas (Mr. DeLay), the distinguished majority
whip.
Mr. DeLAY. Mr. Chairman, I thank the gentleman for yielding me this
time.
I was sitting here watching the debate. It was almost identical to
debates of old, when we were fighting for freedom in the Soviet Union,
when we were fighting for freedom in El Salvador, when we were fighting
for freedom in Nicaragua. History proved us right and proved you wrong.
Allowing travel to Cuba is a terrible mistake. The benefits of free
trade cannot flow to people who are ruthlessly oppressed by a rigidly
controlling totalitarian regime. Supporters claim that American
tourists will help average Cubans. But letting Americans travel to Cuba
will strengthen Castro and do nothing to improve the lot of average
Cubans. Freedom cannot penetrate Castro's Communist cadre because it
operates more like an organized crime syndicate than a legitimate
government.
But surely, we are told, joint ventures with foreign investors will
change all that. All joint ventures in Cuba remain under Castro's
thumb. Those businesses cannot even hire a Cuban worker without
Castro's blessing. All the property in Cuba belongs to Castro. All the
income that comes from these Americans will go to Castro.
We are also told that if we support trade in China, we ought to
support it in Cuba as well. But China and Cuba, I think, is a poor
comparison. In China, the government is allowing the rudiments of a
market economy to form. Trade with China does benefit average people.
Cuba is a monolithic island under the heel of Castro's regime. Under
this dictatorship, the only entrepreneur is Castro. Castro's thugs
cannot meet the basic needs of their people. This tyrant is teetering
on the brink of an abyss. Why in the world would we reach out now to
draw his evil, abusive regime back to safety?
Let it fall. Let it fall and liberate the Cuban people.
The CHAIRMAN. The question is on the amendment offered by the
gentleman from Arizona (Mr. Flake) as a substitute for the amendment
offered by the gentleman from New Jersey (Mr. Smith).
The question was taken; and the Chairman announced that the noes
appeared to have it.
Mr. FLAKE. Mr. Chairman, I demand a recorded vote.
The CHAIRMAN. Pursuant to clause 6 of rule XVIII, further proceedings
on the amendment offered by the gentleman from Arizona (Mr. Flake) as a
substitute for the amendment offered by the gentleman from New Jersey
(Mr. Smith) will be postponed.
Therefore, further proceedings on the first-degree amendment offered
by the gentleman from New Jersey (Mr. Smith) will also be postponed.
Amendment No. 7 Offered by Mr. Rangel
Mr. RANGEL. Mr. Chairman, I offer an amendment.
The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will designate the amendment.
The text of the amendment is as follows:
Amendment No. 7 offered by Mr. Rangel:
At the end of the bill, insert after the last section
(preceding the short title) the following new section:
Sec. ____. None of the funds made available in this Act may
be used to implement, administer, or enforce the economic
embargo of Cuba, as defined in section 4(7) of the Cuban
Liberty and Democratic Solidarity (LIBERTAD) Act of 1996
(Public Law 104-114), except those provisions that relate to
the denial of foreign tax credits or to the implementation of
the Harmonized Tariff Schedule of the United States.
The CHAIRMAN. Pursuant to the order of the House of today, the
gentleman from New York (Mr. Rangel) and the gentleman from Florida
(Mr. Diaz-Balart) each will control 10 minutes.
The Chair recognizes the gentleman from New York (Mr. Rangel).
Mr. RANGEL. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
(Mr. RANGEL asked and was given permission to revise and extend his
remarks.)
Mr. RANGEL. Mr. Chairman, in the shadows of this great Republic of
the United States is a small island 90 miles off our shore called Cuba.
The most powerful Nation in the world somehow just fritters when we
consider talking to the Cuban people, trading with the Cuban people or
visiting in Cuba. The sanctions that we have had against this small
nation that have been locked into place for over 40 years just have not
worked. They never do. Unilateral sanctions never do work. It is so
arrogant that not only do we have these sanctions against the Cuban
people and their government but we are arrogant enough to put sanctions
against our friends and our allies that want to do business with the
people in Cuba.
It falls beneath the dignity of a great country to try to bring down
a government in any country by using food and medicine and economic
exchange as a weapon in order to do that. There is no way that we are
going to convince the American people that Fidel Castro is more of a
tyrant, more of a dictator, more oppressive than people in other parts
of the world which we are doing business with.
In this very body, I could hear the opposition saying, ``The only way
to bring down communism in China is to engage these people in economic
activity. The only way that we can bring about democracy is by using
the tools of trade and cultural exchange.''
We are saying the same thing about Vietnam, and a bill will be up
before we go on recess, a country that is responsible for the taking of
so many American lives. Again in North Korea, they are responsible for
the loss of so many American lives. Again in China, responsible for the
loss of so many American lives. We have never even had anyone mugged in
Cuba. Yet we are saying that we have a higher standard in terms of
ignoring the country and providing sanctions against us.
But there is something else, too. Trade is a two-way street. We now
have farmers in the United States that have had markets closed to us.
It just seems to me that if China has to go all over the world to get
its dairy products, its meat, its rice and its chickens, then why
should the United States of America markets be closed? Why should Cuban
Americans not be able to do business with Cubans? Why do we put these
handcuffs on ourselves when we truly believe that trade and opening up
new economic opportunities is really the key to democracy?
So it just seems to me that, once again, we have an opportunity by
taking away the funds that really operate this bureaucracy and to say
that we respect the American people, we respect their economic
judgment, and we respect the right of Americans to travel anywhere that
Americans want to travel, that we are a strong people, we have a rich
history and we do not allow Communists to frighten us here in the
United States, in Havana, in Moscow or Hanoi.
Mr. Chairman, I reserve the balance of my time.
Mr. DIAZ-BALART. Mr. Chairman, I yield 2\1/2\ minutes to the
gentlewoman from Florida (Ms. Ros-Lehtinen), the distinguished chairman
of the Subcommittee on Human Rights.
Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN. Mr. Chairman, I rise today in strong opposition to
the Rangel amendment because Cuba's terrible record of human rights
violations was not exported there. The degrading treatment that the
Castro regime inflicts on its own citizens is not the end result of the
U.S. embargo on Cuba. The embargo is not responsible for the gulags for
prisoners of conscience. The
[[Page H4605]]
embargo does not forbid independent labor unions from existing. The
U.S. embargo is not responsible for the systematic persecution and
mistreatment of religious organizations, nonviolent opposition
movements and human rights dissidents.
The U.S. embargo is not what drives a police officer to beat
unconscious a political prisoner while she is on a hunger strike. The
U.S. embargo does not mandate the summary execution of independent
journalists and conscientious objectors. It is the totalitarian regime
and its tyrannical leader who are the sole creators of a state that has
perpetrated the most deplorable violations of fundamental human rights
and freedoms against its own people throughout the last 42 years.
How does this Congress tell Vladimiro Roca, who is going on his
1,471st day in prison, the last 1,343 of those days have been spent in
solitary confinement, that the very embargo he praised in a pamphlet
entitled, The Homeland Belongs to Us All, an action which led to his
imprisonment, will be weakened by those who choose to justify the
inhumane behavior that Castro renders on his people?
They demand the innate human rights that every individual should
never be denied. Castro has repeatedly stated that he will not change.
He has underscored his position over and over again of socialism or
death.
The regime continues to exert absolute control over all investments
and business endeavors, requiring that all payments be channeled
through the dictatorship's agencies. Its disregard for property rights
of any kind has resulted in the regime falling into disgrace with even
its most loyal trading partners, such as Canadian, Mexican and European
investors whose machinery and payments have been stolen by the regime.
I urge my colleagues to strongly vote ``no'' on this amendment that
goes against our American principles of freedom and human rights.
Mr. RANGEL. Mr. Chairman, I yield 1 minute to the gentleman from
Maryland (Mr. Wynn).
Mr. WYNN. Mr. Chairman, I thank the gentleman for yielding me this
time.
Mr. Chairman, I rise in support of the gentleman's amendment that we
normalize our relationship with that tiny island 90 miles off our
coast. I do not think any of us are here today to condone Castro's
actions. That is not the point. The point is that we need a rational
foreign policy toward Cuba that is not based on emotion.
Yes, we want cop killers back in the United States. No, we do not
condone gulags. But there are gulags in Cuba. There are gulags in
China. There are gulags in Korea. That is not the point. We need a
rational policy.
Second, the policy we have is not rational, and it has failed. It has
failed for 40 years. It failed even when the Soviets abandoned Cuba. If
this embargo did not work when the Soviets abandoned Cuba, it is never
going to work. All it does is impose hardships on the Cuban people, and
that plays right into Castro's hands.
Members of the State Department have said privately that this embargo
is just what Castro wants, because it bans Cuban nationalism and allows
him to continue his regime. Let us normalize our relationship as we
have done with China and other countries.
Mr. DIAZ-BALART. Mr. Chairman, I yield 2\1/2\ minutes to the
gentleman from Georgia (Mr. Kingston).
{time} 1730
Mr. KINGSTON. Mr. Chairman, I thank the gentleman for yielding me
time.
Mr. Chairman, I wanted to, number one, stress to all of those who may
be listening that the United States embargo allows the donation of
food, clothing and medicine to the Cuban people. The embargo also
allows the controlled sale of medicine, medical supplies and
agriculture products to Cuba. It is extremely important for us to
remember that, because people keep saying and acting like that is not
the case. We have taken allowance to put in humanitarian considerations
in there, which is far more than we get out of Castro.
Now, a lot of people keep talking about China, and I just returned
from China 2 weeks ago, and want to talk a little bit about the
difference between Communist China and Communist Cuba. Number one, they
have a precedent. They do have two systems under one nation. Hong Kong,
they have left the capitalism in Hong Kong. China has not infiltrated
that and messed it up.
Secondly, they can also look across the waters and see Taiwan, which
they consider still part of China and a province, but they understand
how capitalism works because of Taiwan and because of Hong Kong.
Number two, China is eager to get into the WTO, not just as a
business proposition, but they are interested in joining the world
community today, one of human rights and business transparency and
labor unions and audits and all the things that we have in the West.
Number three, there are already American companies doing business in
China: International Paper, Rayon Air, Motorola, Coca-Cola. Motorola,
12 percent of their receipts are from China right now. The Chinese
people are interested in capitalism, and the reason is, their brand of
socialism is China, Inc., what works. They do not have this mantra to
the throne of Karl Marx the way Mr. Castro does.
It is very important to remember that Jiang Zemin is far more
democratic than Fidel Castro. That is why he is not afraid to have the
Olympics come to Beijing and open up the nation to the scrutiny of the
world by having the Olympics right in his capital.
I also want to say Russia has been alluded to here. Here again, you
do not have one person. I went with the Speaker when the Speaker of the
Dumas invited the gentleman from Illinois (Mr. Hastert) on a trip, and
they wanted to talk to us about reform.
One of the big reforms that the Russian people were interested in was
judicial reform. They are interested in democrat processes. They do not
believe in the old tenets of communism of 50 years. China, reform;
Russia, reform; Cuba, no, sir. They are still stuck in time, and as
long as Fidel Castro is there, they will not change.
Mr. RANGEL. Mr. Chairman, I yield 2 minutes to the gentlewoman from
California (Ms. Lee).
Ms. LEE. Mr. Chairman, I thank the gentleman for yielding me time.
Mr. Chairman, I rise in strong support of the Rangel amendment.
Although relations with most communist governments, such as China and
Vietnam, are normalized, the United States continues to prohibit
virtually any and all political, economic, or even cultural exchanges
between the people of the United States and the people of Cuba. Since
the early days of the Cold War, our government has been entrenched in
an absolute embargo that has created much suffering on this Afro-
Hispanic island only 90 miles away. This embargo is archaic, it is
inhumane, and it must be changed.
Like many Members, I, too, have visited Cuba many times and met with
the anti-Castro organizations. But, barring none, they communicated
that the best way to address all issues, including human rights
concerns, is to at least end the embargo, so dialogue can take place.
We all must be concerned about human rights violations, wherever they
may occur in the world, including in our own United States of America,
as minorities in our own country clearly understand. But the United
States embargo against Cuba is a failed policy that has only served as
an impediment to a rational foreign policy.
Now, for those who support fair trade, which I do, it is wrong to
prevent the United States companies, our U.S.-based companies, our
farmers, especially, from accessing the Cuban market. This could also
mean thousands of jobs for United States workers. So we are really
doing a disservice to our own people in our own country.
Not only must we strike down the restrictions on United States
citizens' travel to Cuba, but we should end the embargo, and we should
end it right away. It is the right thing to do.
Mr. DIAZ-BALART. Mr. Chairman, I yield 1\1/2\ minutes to the
gentleman from New Jersey (Mr. Menendez).
(Mr. MENENDEZ asked and was given permission to revise and extend his
remarks.)
Mr. MENENDEZ. Mr. Chairman, I listened to my colleagues, and it is
interesting, when we talk about Cuba, the word ``emotions'' always
slips in; but I
[[Page H4606]]
hear my colleagues come to this floor on other parts of the world, on
questions of famine and human rights and AIDS, and they speak very
passionately. We do not say it is an emotional issue.
We also question China, and yet many people vote against China MFN
because they believe China should be sanctioned in that regard, but
they believe we should lift everything as it relates to Cuba. But
forced abortion, arrest of dissidents, Tiananmen Square, a whole long
list, it seems to me if that after 25 years of engagement is our human
rights success in China, we should review that policy.
Lastly, why, if lifting the embargo means the end of Castro, why is
it his number one foreign policy objective? If it means his end, as
everybody would suggest, why is it his number one foreign policy
objective?
The fact of the matter is that I would ask my colleagues who
vigorously support human rights and democracy, who seek sanctions in
other parts of the world, like the Sudan and other places, that they
need to understand that if we vigorously enforce a sanctions regime
wherever we seek to impose sanctions, then we have an opportunity to
have a public policy success using peaceful diplomacy versus anything
else.
Lastly, we are the largest remitters of humanitarian assistance to
the people of Cuba, more than all the other countries of the world
combined over the last several years. It is Castro who keeps his people
hungry by his failed policies.
Mr. RANGEL. Mr. Chairman, I yield 1 minute to the gentlewoman from
California (Ms. Waters).
Ms. WATERS. Mr. Chairman, there was a demonstration out front the
other day and up and down Connecticut Avenue. It was the Falun Gong
trying to tell us about religious persecution in China. Yet we chase
after China, we give them Most Favorite Nation status for trading
purposes, and we forget about their human rights violations.
Yet 90 miles off the shore of Miami, we have a small country that is
trying to survive, and we keep our foot on the back of their necks
simply because there are few people who cannot get over the fact that
he overthrew Batista. Batista had literally given Cuba to the
multinationals, who practically owned it, to the gangsters, and
everybody else who wanted to go down to Cuba and do whatever they
wanted to do.
Well, we may not like the revolution, but we need to get over it. He
has been trying to survive all of these years. It is time to do away
with this policy. It does not make good sense.
Let me just tell you, Canada is reaping $260 million in trade; China,
$156 million; France, $216 million. It goes on and on and on. The Farm
Bureau wants to open up trade opportunities.
Mr. DIAZ-BALART. Mr. Chairman, I yield 1\1/2\ minutes to the
distinguished gentleman from Indiana (Mr. Burton).
Mr. BURTON of Indiana. Mr. Chairman, the suffering of the Cuban
people is caused by Fidel Castro, and not by the embargo. The money
that is paid to the employees down there by businesses that go into
Cuba does not go to the employees; it goes to Castro. If they are paid
$400 a month, that $400 goes to Castro, and he pays them in the local
currency, which is worth about $5 to $10 a month.
He is the one who keeps his heel on the neck of the people of Cuba.
He is the one that causes the suffering down there. He is the one that
causes the human rights abuses, and he is the one that has killed that
economy.
Why does he want the embargo lifted? Because he knows if we have
tourism going down there, he knows if there is trade with him, the
money will go into his pocket; the money will be able to prop up his
regime, and he will be able to continue his communist philosophy and
dictatorship down there.
Finally, just let me say one more thing. People say he is no longer
exporting revolution. I will tell you right now, Fidel Castro is
supporting the FARC guerrillas in Colombia that are flooding our
streets with drugs, that are killing our kids and ruining people's
lives. The FARC guerrillas wear the berets that Che Guevara wore when
he was down there exporting revolution for Fidel Castro.
This man is a tyrant, he is a man we should not deal with, he is a
man who has killed his own people, and he is the one that suffers; not
the people of Cuba, because he is the one that is keeping them under
his heel and under his boot. Five to $10 a month is what they earn
because of Fidel Castro.
Mr. RANGEL. Mr. Chairman, I yield 1 minute to the gentleman from New
York (Mr. Hinchey).
Mr. HINCHEY. Mr. Chairman, listening to the debate, I could not help
but remember the words of Harry Truman. When he was interviewed for the
biography ``Plain Speaking'' just before his death in Independence,
Missouri, he was asked the question, ``What would you do about Cuba if
you were still President?''
He said, ``I would pick up the phone and call Fidel and say, I see
you have some problems down there, Fidel. Why don't you come on up
here, and we will talk about them and see if we can't settle this
thing.''
Boy, if he had only been President, and if other Presidents had only
followed that kind of advice since then, we would not have the
necessity of this debate today.
Why a strong, powerful country like the United States has to make an
enemy of a weak, defenseless little country like Cuba is a question
that we could speculate upon for some length of time. But one thing is
absolutely clear, the policy of the last 40 years has failed. It is
time to open the doors and let the fresh air come in.
The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Florida (Mr. Diaz-Balart) has 2
minutes remaining, and the gentleman from New York (Mr. Rangel) has 1
minute remaining. The gentleman from New York (Mr. Rangel) as the
author will close debate on the amendment.
Mr. DIAZ-BALART. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself the balance of my time.
Mr. Chairman, let us cut to the chase here. Let us cut to the chase.
Let us cut to the chase, Mr. Chairman. Castro is 75 years old. He
collapsed a few weeks ago and those surrounding him in the power clique
were terrorized. His days are numbered.
What we are talking about today is the future of Cuba. It is the
leadership that is in prison today, Antiunez, this young man, for
example, who is facing an 18-year sentence because in high school he
decided to say that the regime was evil and he opposed it and he sought
democracy. Or Maritza Lugo, the chairman, the president of the 30th of
November Democratic Party. She and her husband are political prisoners,
though they have little daughters, like the gentlewoman from Florida
(Ms. Ros-Lehtinen) who is on the floor. Well, Maritza Lugo has two
daughters, and they are both in prison, she and her husband, are both
in jail, because they are leading a political party in Cuba.
And Vladimiro Roca, whose father, by the way, was the founder of the
communist party in the 1920s, and now he is in a dungeon, because he is
the president of the Social Democratic Party, and asked for free
elections. Are they going to be released, and are their political
parties going to be legalized and is the regime going to sit down with
them and have free elections like happened in South Africa and like
happened in Chile and like happened in Spain and Portugal and
everywhere else, everywhere else the world stood for freedom?
Oh, no. But in Cuba we should discriminate, despite the fact that
they are 90 miles from our shores. That is the issue that we are
debating here today.
So our current law says three conditions, and the embargo is
automatically lifted. The gentleman from New Jersey (Mr. Menendez)
authorized billions of dollars in the legislation that we passed a few
years ago. It is already law for assistance to Cuba. Three conditions
is what we seek for our neighbors 90 miles away: Liberate the political
prisoners, legalize their political parties, and sit down with them and
have an election. Is that too much to ask for our closest neighbors? It
is not.
But the debate today is whether the regime continues after the demise
of the tyrant, the death or the incapacity of the tyrant; or whether
these people, the leaders of free Cuba, continue to receive our
support, as this Congress has, despite the attitude of the executive
office, not now, because President Bush supports the sanctions now, but
other times in history they have not. Congress has always been with the
Cuban people.
[[Page H4607]]
Stand with the Cuban people and their future leaders, not the
tyrants. Oppose Rangel.
Mr. RANGEL. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself the balance of my time.
Mr. Chairman, that proves what a great country we have, that friends
can disagree and, at the same time, attempt to move forward.
I think in addition to a great country, we have to really emphasize
the importance of free trade and opening up new markets. Certainly for
whatever tragedies people are suffering in Cuba, you cannot possibly
believe that it is not worse in China. And if those on the other side
of the aisle truly believe that trade is going to be the key of
establishing better relationship and normalizing our relationship, then
certainly I think we should have enough confidence in the American
business people and enough confidence in the American people not to
succumb to the dangers that communism offers.
{time} 1745
This is a strong Nation. We can survive the threats of communism. We
can enter into extradition treaties in order to bring back the convicts
that are there. Let us face it. If the present dictator dies, who is
going to replace him?
The CHAIRMAN. The question is on the amendment offered by the
gentleman from New York (Mr. Rangel).
The question was taken; and the Chairman announced that the noes
appeared to have it.
Mr. RANGEL. Mr. Chairman, I demand a recorded vote.
The CHAIRMAN. Pursuant to clause 6 of rule XVIII, further proceedings
on the amendment offered by the gentleman from New York (Mr. Rangel)
will be postponed.
Sequential Votes Postponed in Committee of the Whole
The CHAIRMAN. Pursuant to clause 6 of rule XVI, proceedings will now
resume on those amendments on which further proceedings were postponed
in the following order: the substitute offered by the gentleman from
Arizona (Mr. Flake); amendment No. 5 offered by the gentleman from New
Jersey (Mr. Smith); and amendment No. 7 offered by the gentleman from
New York (Mr. Rangel).
Amendment Offered by Mr. Flake as a Substitute for the Amendment
Offered by Mr. Smith of New Jersey
The CHAIRMAN. The pending business is the demand for a recorded vote
on the amendment offered by the gentleman from Arizona (Mr. Flake) as a
substitute for the amendment offered by the gentleman from New Jersey
(Mr. Smith) on which further proceedings were postponed and on which
the noes prevailed by voice vote.
The Clerk will designate the substitute amendment.
The Clerk designated the substitute amendment.
Recorded Vote
The CHAIRMAN. A recorded vote has been demanded.
A recorded vote was ordered.
The vote was taken by electronic device, and there were--ayes 240,
noes 186, not voting 7, as follows:
[Roll No. 270]
AYES--240
Abercrombie
Aderholt
Allen
Baird
Baldacci
Baldwin
Barcia
Barrett
Bass
Becerra
Bentsen
Bereuter
Berman
Berry
Biggert
Bishop
Boehlert
Bonior
Bono
Borski
Boswell
Boucher
Brady (PA)
Brady (TX)
Brown (FL)
Brown (OH)
Brown (SC)
Camp
Capps
Capuano
Cardin
Carson (IN)
Carson (OK)
Castle
Clay
Clayton
Clement
Clyburn
Collins
Combest
Condit
Conyers
Costello
Coyne
Cramer
Cummings
Davis (CA)
Davis (IL)
DeFazio
DeGette
Delahunt
DeLauro
Dicks
Dingell
Doggett
Dooley
Doyle
Edwards
Ehlers
Emerson
English
Eshoo
Etheridge
Evans
Farr
Fattah
Filner
Flake
Fletcher
Ford
Frank
Gallegly
Ganske
Gilchrest
Gonzalez
Gordon
Graves
Greenwood
Gutierrez
Harman
Herger
Hill
Hilleary
Hilliard
Hinchey
Hinojosa
Hoeffel
Hoekstra
Holden
Holt
Honda
Hooley
Horn
Hostettler
Houghton
Hoyer
Inslee
Isakson
Issa
Jackson (IL)
Jackson-Lee (TX)
Jefferson
John
Johnson (CT)
Johnson (IL)
Johnson, E. B.
Jones (OH)
Kanjorski
Kaptur
Kildee
Kilpatrick
Kind (WI)
Kleczka
Kolbe
Kucinich
LaFalce
LaHood
Lampson
Langevin
Lantos
Largent
Larsen (WA)
Larson (CT)
Latham
Leach
Lee
Levin
Lewis (GA)
Lofgren
Lowey
Luther
Maloney (CT)
Maloney (NY)
Manzullo
Markey
Mascara
Matheson
Matsui
McCarthy (MO)
McCollum
McDermott
McGovern
McIntyre
McKinney
McNulty
Meehan
Millender-McDonald
Miller, George
Mink
Moore
Moran (KS)
Moran (VA)
Morella
Murtha
Nadler
Napolitano
Neal
Nethercutt
Ney
Nussle
Oberstar
Obey
Olver
Osborne
Otter
Owens
Pastor
Paul
Payne
Pelosi
Peterson (MN)
Peterson (PA)
Phelps
Pickering
Platts
Pomeroy
Price (NC)
Rahall
Ramstad
Rangel
Rehberg
Rivers
Rodriguez
Roemer
Ross
Roybal-Allard
Rush
Ryan (WI)
Sabo
Sanchez
Sanders
Sandlin
Sawyer
Schakowsky
Schiff
Scott
Serrano
Shays
Sherwood
Shimkus
Shows
Simmons
Simpson
Slaughter
Smith (MI)
Smith (WA)
Solis
Spratt
Stark
Stenholm
Strickland
Stupak
Sununu
Tanner
Tauscher
Taylor (MS)
Thompson (CA)
Thompson (MS)
Thune
Thurman
Tiahrt
Tiberi
Tierney
Toomey
Towns
Turner
Udall (CO)
Udall (NM)
Upton
Velazquez
Wamp
Waters
Watson (CA)
Watt (NC)
Waxman
Weiner
Weldon (PA)
Whitfield
Woolsey
Wynn
NOES--186
Ackerman
Akin
Andrews
Armey
Baca
Bachus
Baker
Ballenger
Barr
Bartlett
Barton
Berkley
Bilirakis
Blagojevich
Blunt
Boehner
Bonilla
Boyd
Bryant
Burr
Burton
Buyer
Callahan
Calvert
Cannon
Cantor
Capito
Chabot
Chambliss
Coble
Cox
Crane
Crenshaw
Crowley
Cubin
Culberson
Cunningham
Davis (FL)
Davis, Jo Ann
Davis, Tom
Deal
DeLay
DeMint
Deutsch
Diaz-Balart
Doolittle
Dreier
Duncan
Dunn
Ehrlich
Engel
Everett
Ferguson
Foley
Forbes
Fossella
Frelinghuysen
Frost
Gekas
Gephardt
Gibbons
Gillmor
Gilman
Goode
Goodlatte
Goss
Graham
Granger
Green (TX)
Green (WI)
Grucci
Gutknecht
Hall (OH)
Hall (TX)
Hansen
Hart
Hastings (FL)
Hastings (WA)
Hayes
Hayworth
Hefley
Hobson
Hulshof
Hunter
Hutchinson
Hyde
Israel
Istook
Jenkins
Johnson, Sam
Jones (NC)
Keller
Kelly
Kennedy (MN)
Kennedy (RI)
Kerns
King (NY)
Kingston
Kirk
Knollenberg
LaTourette
Lewis (CA)
Lewis (KY)
Linder
LoBiondo
Lucas (KY)
Lucas (OK)
McCarthy (NY)
McCrery
McHugh
McInnis
McKeon
Meek (FL)
Menendez
Mica
Miller (FL)
Miller, Gary
Mollohan
Myrick
Northup
Norwood
Ortiz
Ose
Oxley
Pallone
Pascrell
Pence
Petri
Pitts
Pombo
Portman
Pryce (OH)
Putnam
Quinn
Radanovich
Regula
Reyes
Reynolds
Riley
Rogers (KY)
Rogers (MI)
Rohrabacher
Ros-Lehtinen
Rothman
Roukema
Royce
Ryun (KS)
Saxton
Schaffer
Schrock
Sensenbrenner
Sessions
Shadegg
Shaw
Sherman
Shuster
Skeen
Skelton
Smith (NJ)
Smith (TX)
Souder
Stearns
Stump
Sweeney
Tancredo
Tauzin
Taylor (NC)
Terry
Thomas
Thornberry
Traficant
Visclosky
Vitter
Walden
Walsh
Watkins (OK)
Watts (OK)
Weldon (FL)
Weller
Wexler
Wicker
Wilson
Wolf
Wu
Young (AK)
Young (FL)
NOT VOTING--7
Blumenauer
Cooksey
Lipinski
Meeks (NY)
Scarborough
Snyder
Spence
{time} 1808
Mr. HALL of Ohio and Mr. KERNS changed their vote from ``aye'' to
``no''.
Mrs. MALONEY of New York and Messrs. HOUGHTON, BASS, WHITFIELD, and
SHOWS changed their vote from ``no'' to ``aye''.
So the amendment offered as a substitute for the amendment was agreed
to.
The result of the vote was announced as above recorded.
Amendment No. 5 Offered by Mr. Smith of New Jersey, as Amended
The CHAIRMAN. The question is on Amendment No. 5 offered by the
gentleman from New Jersey (Mr. Smith), as amended.
The amendment, as amended, was agreed to.
Amendment No. 7 Offered by Mr. Rangel
The CHAIRMAN. The pending business is the demand for a recorded vote
on Amendment No. 7 offered by the gentleman from New York (Mr. Rangel)
on which further proceedings were postponed and on which the noes
prevailed by voice vote.
The Clerk will redesignate the amendment.
The Clerk redesignated the amendment.
[[Page H4608]]
Recorded Vote
The CHAIRMAN. A recorded vote has been demanded.
A recorded vote was ordered.
The CHAIRMAN. This will be a 5-minute vote.
The vote was taken by electronic device, and there were--ayes 201,
noes 227, not voting 5, as follows:
[Roll No. 271]
AYES--201
Abercrombie
Allen
Baca
Baird
Baldacci
Baldwin
Barcia
Barrett
Becerra
Bentsen
Bereuter
Berry
Biggert
Bishop
Bonior
Bono
Boswell
Boucher
Brady (TX)
Brown (FL)
Brown (OH)
Brown (SC)
Capps
Capuano
Carson (IN)
Carson (OK)
Clay
Clayton
Clement
Clyburn
Combest
Condit
Conyers
Costello
Coyne
Cramer
Cummings
Davis (CA)
Davis (IL)
DeFazio
DeGette
Delahunt
DeLauro
Dicks
Dingell
Doggett
Dooley
Doyle
Edwards
Emerson
English
Eshoo
Evans
Farr
Fattah
Filner
Flake
Ford
Frank
Ganske
Gilchrest
Gonzalez
Graves
Greenwood
Hall (OH)
Harman
Herger
Hill
Hilliard
Hinchey
Hinojosa
Hoeffel
Holt
Honda
Hooley
Houghton
Inslee
Issa
Jackson (IL)
Jackson-Lee (TX)
Jefferson
John
Johnson (CT)
Johnson (IL)
Johnson, E. B.
Jones (OH)
Kanjorski
Kaptur
Kildee
Kilpatrick
Kind (WI)
Kleczka
Kucinich
LaFalce
LaHood
Lampson
Langevin
Lantos
Largent
Larsen (WA)
Larson (CT)
Latham
Leach
Lee
Levin
Lewis (GA)
Lofgren
Lowey
Luther
Maloney (NY)
Manzullo
Markey
Matheson
Matsui
McCarthy (MO)
McCarthy (NY)
McCollum
McDermott
McGovern
McKinney
McNulty
Meehan
Meeks (NY)
Millender-McDonald
Miller, George
Mink
Moore
Moran (KS)
Moran (VA)
Morella
Nadler
Napolitano
Neal
Nethercutt
Nussle
Oberstar
Obey
Olver
Osborne
Otter
Owens
Pastor
Paul
Payne
Pelosi
Peterson (MN)
Peterson (PA)
Phelps
Pomeroy
Price (NC)
Radanovich
Rahall
Ramstad
Rangel
Rehberg
Rivers
Rodriguez
Roemer
Ross
Roybal-Allard
Rush
Ryan (WI)
Sabo
Sanchez
Sanders
Sandlin
Sawyer
Schakowsky
Scott
Serrano
Shays
Shimkus
Simpson
Slaughter
Smith (WA)
Solis
Stark
Stenholm
Strickland
Stupak
Tanner
Tauscher
Taylor (MS)
Thompson (CA)
Thompson (MS)
Thune
Thurman
Tierney
Towns
Turner
Udall (CO)
Udall (NM)
Upton
Velazquez
Waters
Watson (CA)
Watt (NC)
Waxman
Weiner
Woolsey
Wynn
NOES--227
Ackerman
Aderholt
Akin
Andrews
Armey
Bachus
Baker
Ballenger
Barr
Bartlett
Barton
Bass
Berkley
Berman
Bilirakis
Blagojevich
Blunt
Boehlert
Boehner
Bonilla
Borski
Boyd
Brady (PA)
Bryant
Burr
Burton
Buyer
Callahan
Calvert
Camp
Cannon
Cantor
Capito
Cardin
Castle
Chabot
Chambliss
Coble
Collins
Cooksey
Cox
Crane
Crenshaw
Crowley
Cubin
Culberson
Cunningham
Davis (FL)
Davis, Jo Ann
Davis, Tom
Deal
DeLay
DeMint
Deutsch
Diaz-Balart
Doolittle
Dreier
Duncan
Dunn
Ehlers
Ehrlich
Engel
Etheridge
Everett
Ferguson
Fletcher
Foley
Forbes
Fossella
Frelinghuysen
Frost
Gallegly
Gekas
Gephardt
Gibbons
Gillmor
Gilman
Goode
Goodlatte
Gordon
Goss
Graham
Granger
Green (TX)
Green (WI)
Grucci
Gutierrez
Gutknecht
Hall (TX)
Hansen
Hart
Hastings (FL)
Hastings (WA)
Hayes
Hayworth
Hefley
Hilleary
Hobson
Hoekstra
Holden
Horn
Hostettler
Hoyer
Hulshof
Hunter
Hutchinson
Hyde
Isakson
Israel
Istook
Jenkins
Johnson, Sam
Jones (NC)
Keller
Kelly
Kennedy (MN)
Kennedy (RI)
Kerns
King (NY)
Kingston
Kirk
Knollenberg
Kolbe
LaTourette
Lewis (CA)
Lewis (KY)
Linder
LoBiondo
Lucas (KY)
Lucas (OK)
Maloney (CT)
Mascara
McCrery
McHugh
McInnis
McIntyre
McKeon
Meek (FL)
Menendez
Mica
Miller (FL)
Miller, Gary
Mollohan
Murtha
Myrick
Ney
Northup
Norwood
Ortiz
Ose
Oxley
Pallone
Pascrell
Pence
Petri
Pickering
Pitts
Platts
Pombo
Portman
Pryce (OH)
Putnam
Quinn
Regula
Reyes
Reynolds
Riley
Rogers (KY)
Rogers (MI)
Rohrabacher
Ros-Lehtinen
Rothman
Roukema
Royce
Ryun (KS)
Saxton
Schaffer
Schiff
Schrock
Sensenbrenner
Sessions
Shadegg
Shaw
Sherman
Sherwood
Shows
Shuster
Simmons
Skeen
Skelton
Smith (MI)
Smith (NJ)
Smith (TX)
Souder
Spratt
Stearns
Stump
Sununu
Sweeney
Tancredo
Tauzin
Taylor (NC)
Terry
Thomas
Thornberry
Tiahrt
Tiberi
Toomey
Traficant
Visclosky
Vitter
Walden
Walsh
Wamp
Watkins (OK)
Watts (OK)
Weldon (FL)
Weldon (PA)
Weller
Wexler
Whitfield
Wicker
Wilson
Wolf
Wu
Young (AK)
Young (FL)
NOT VOTING--5
Blumenauer
Lipinski
Scarborough
Snyder
Spence
{time} 1818
Mr. DINGELL and Mr. HOUGHTON changed their vote from ``no'' to
``aye.''
Mr. TERRY changed his vote from ``aye'' to ``no.''
So the amendment was rejected.
The result of the vote was announced as above recorded.
Amendment Offered by Mr. Traficant
Mr. TRAFICANT. Mr. Chairman, I offer an amendment.
The Clerk read as follows:
Amendment offered by Mr. Traficant:
At the end of the bill (before the short title), insert the
following:
Sec. ____. None of the funds made available in this Act may
be used by the Internal Revenue Service to pay any bonus or
incentive payment to the Commissioner, the Deputy
Commissioner, the Chief Counsel, the Chief Inspector, the
Chief of Management and Administration, the Chief Financial
Officer, the Chief of Operations, the Chief of Appeals, the
Chief Information Officer, or the Chief of Communications of
the Service.
Mr. TRAFICANT. Mr. Chairman, I have never heard so many Members
coming over and saying they agree with me, but they have to oppose my
amendment. They say they like what I am doing, it needs to be done; but
they are going to have to vote ``no.'' They say, I want to commend you,
Mr. Traficant, because what you are doing is an absolute necessity, but
I am going to have to vote ``no.''
Now, let me explain what the amendment is. Two years ago, 81 percent
of all information given by the IRS to our constituents was false and
wrong. This year, they corrected it and they improved, only having 73
percent of the information given to our constituents to be deemed
faulty. Now, I want my colleagues to listen to this. I want my
colleagues to listen to what a GAO report said. The report said that 50
percent of all of our constituents' calls made to the Internal Revenue
Service are not even returned; they go unanswered.
Now, here is what the Traficant amendment says. It lets all these IRS
people go, but there are 10 people at the top that are prohibited from
getting bonuses under this bill.
Every newspaper in America says Congress must be nuts allowing these
IRS fat cats to reward themselves with bonuses while their constituents
are getting screwed.
Now, I do not know if there is anybody willing to speak on this
issue, Mr. Chairman, but I will say this. I understand the position of
Ways and Means members, I understand leadership, but I want to say
this. This has gone on long enough, year after year; and every year
there is a reason. Now, one of the reasons I have heard was three of
these positions mentioned are new people. Well, tell me, what new
employees get bonuses the first year in the first place?
In the legislative history let it show that if my colleagues do not
want to remove some of these people because they personally know them
and they are St. Ignatius, I do not mind it. But the buck stops
somewhere, and it is not stopping in the penthouse of the IRS. That
means Congress has an inherent responsibility to make sure that our
constituents' calls are returned; that our constituents get correct
answers; and that our constituents are treated with respect.
If one out of every two Americans do not even have their call
returned or answered, what is wrong with us? And when 73 percent of the
advice they do give to the 50 percent that are lucky to get a return
call, 73 percent of it is wrong. But they say it is an improvement over
the 81 percent.
That is right, beam me up. I have great respect for my good friend,
the gentleman from Ohio (Mr. Portman). He has done a great job on
taxes. Look, I do not want any complimentary regards here tonight, I do
not want any pats on the back, I want an ``aye'' vote on my amendment.
And if it is thrown out in conference, then throw it out in conference,
but I want to say something to Congress. If we want to get the
[[Page H4609]]
attention of the IRS, we could give them all the rhetoric we want, but
this is stone cold business. This is exactly what Congress should be
doing.
The Congress of the United States Government is a participatory
democracy in this Republic, and it is time we do so. I am asking for an
``aye'' vote.
Mr. PORTMAN. Mr. Chairman, I move to strike the last word.
Mr. Chairman, my colleague, the gentleman from Ohio (Mr. Traficant),
has done a lot to help with IRS reform. I walked over a moment ago and
told him I did want to compliment him as well as oppose his amendment.
I was not talking about complimenting the amendment, however. I want to
compliment him because in 1998 this Congress spoke almost with one
voice at the end of the day for restructuring the IRS entirely, for
putting in place dozens of new taxpayer rights.
The IRS, while it still has lots of problems, including phone calls
that are not getting answered, including information that is not being
accurately conveyed, is doing a little better. And even the gentleman
said that in his statement. But in 1998 the gentleman from Ohio (Mr.
Traficant) pushed this House to put something in place that shifted the
burden of proof from the taxpayers to the IRS in tax court. That was an
important reform. It was not in the original reform and restructuring
act. It was added, in part, again because the gentleman from Ohio (Mr.
Traficant) helped do that.
That is what I was going to talk about in terms of complimenting the
gentleman in terms of helping us to get to a better system. Because
what happens now all through the system is that the IRS has to really
look at these cases to be sure they really have merit, rather than
taking them all the way to court and having the burden, which is
appropriately now on them as it is in every criminal court in America,
rather than the burden being on the taxpayers, as it was before.
But this amendment, to my way of thinking, is counterproductive. Let
me give a couple of examples. When we restructured the IRS, we provided
for more incentive pay, which is part of the amendment; not just
bonuses, but incentive pay. We actually provided they could pay these
top people more than they were paying them at that time. Why? Because
they could not attract good people, particularly in the information
services area.
Management and information services is one of the great problems at
the IRS. The left hand does not know what the right hand is doing. But
it is partly because the left hand is using 1970s software and 1980s
computers, and the right hand is using another stovepipe system that
does not communicate with the first one. We have had to totally revamp
that system, and they are doing it. They finally now have a general
contractor and have put out a modernization effort that we are
supporting in our committees and subcommittees in Congress,
appropriations and authorization.
They are finally getting their act together. But to do that they
needed better people and good people. And they are competing with the
private sector. And I have to tell my colleague, the salaries they are
paying these people is still significantly less than people doing
comparable work in the private sector.
{time} 1830
It is very tough to get people.
Second, I would just like to make the point that some of these people
who would not get an incentive payment or a bonus do not exist any more
because we restructured the IRS and got rid of some of these positions.
For example, there is no chief inspector. There is no chief of
management administration. There is no chief of operations. There is a
chief information officer but he is brand new, and I do not think we
should penalize him yet until we see what kind of work he does.
There is no chief of communications. Some of these lists of titles no
longer exist because of the restructuring. So in a sense we have turned
the IRS upside down. They have restructured the entire operation.
We have forced them to do new performance measurements. We have
forced them to live under some great new taxpayer rights. They are
struggling with that a little bit. They still are not living up to what
we hoped they would be by this point, but they are making improvements.
This is not the time for us, in my view, to send the wrong signal to
the people who I hope are the good guys, the people who have come in,
new people at the top who are from the private sector who we have
attracted to the IRS by saying, we are not going to pay you as much as
the private sector, but we will give you a decent salary so we can be
somewhat competitive, and we will give you a chance.
Again, some of these people are brand new. Others have been there a
year or two. We have to give them that chance. They are the ones that
ought to be straightening out this bureaucracy and all of its problems.
I would hope that while we send a strong message that Congress is
watching, that the oversight board and the subcommittees and committees
of this Congress ought to do their work. That we not accept this
amendment.
I will mention one other thing, Mr. Chairman, if I might. The new
oversight board which is a public/private board which is unique in
government which was very controversial in this body, but we got it
through, is supposed to be there to provide accountability to the IRS.
One of their jobs specifically established by this Congress is to
review the commissioner's selection, evaluation, and compensation of
IRS senior executives.
Let them do their job. Let the oversight board work. Let the IRS
continue to reform itself. Let us not penalize the very people we are
relying on to try to straighten things out at the IRS.
Mr. HOYER. Mr. Chairman, I move to strike the last word.
I yield to the gentleman from Ohio (Mr. Traficant).
Mr. TRAFICANT. Mr. Chairman, the two amendments that were placed in
the IRS reform bill by former Chairman of the Committee on Ways and
Means, Bill Archer, the Traficant amendments could not get a hearing
for 12 years.
Yes, the first one shifted the burden of proof from the taxpayer of
the IRS who was guilty in a civil court. The second one said they could
not seize their homes without judicial consent. We let that go for 50
years.
Here are the statistics. Seizures of homes dropped from 10,037 a year
to 150. Wage attachments dropped from 3.1 million to half a million.
Liens dropped from 680,000 to 160,000.
You are right. Some of these positions do not exist and some of the
reforms we did have worked. But the bottom line is someone is
responsible here and new employees do not get bonuses. Those people at
the top that are coming in, the Congress is saying no bonuses until you
return our constituents' calls and until your information makes sense.
That is not an unreasonable demand.
Let me say this, I commend Chairman Archer for having the courage to
make those changes because they were not in the bill. The IRS
vehemently opposed them as did the Clinton administration.
It is time to make this change and it is time to send this message.
We are not from Western Union, but this strikes at the core.
The CHAIRMAN. The question is on the amendment offered by the
gentleman from Ohio (Mr. Traficant).
The question was taken; and the Chairman announced that the noes
appeared to have it.
Mr. TRAFICANT. Mr. Chairman, I demand a recorded vote, and pending
that, I make the point of order that a quorum is not present.
The CHAIRMAN. Pursuant to clause 6 rule XVIII, further proceedings on
the amendment offered by the gentleman from Ohio (Mr. Traficant) will
be postponed.
The point of no quorum is considered withdrawn.
Are there further amendments?
Mr. ISTOOK. Mr. Chairman, I move that the Committee do now rise.
The motion was agreed to.
Accordingly, the Committee rose; and the Speaker pro tempore (Mr.
Shaw) having assumed the chair, Mr. Dreier, Chairman of the Committee
of the Whole House on the State of the Union, reported that that
Committee, having had under consideration the bill (H.R. 2590) making
appropriations the Treasury Department, the United States Postal
Service, the Executive Office of the President, and certain
[[Page H4610]]
Independent Agencies, for the fiscal year ending September 30, 2002,
and for other purposes, had come to no resolution thereon.
____________________