[Congressional Record Volume 146, Number 57 (Wednesday, May 10, 2000)]
[House]
[Pages H2785-H2787]
From the Congressional Record Online through the Government Publishing Office [www.gpo.gov]




                    UNFUNDED MANDATE POINT OF ORDER

  Mr. CONYERS. Mr. Speaker, I have a point of order that I would like 
to make about the bill that is pending.
  The SPEAKER pro tempore (Mr. Sununu). Since the Chair is about to 
declare the House resolved into Committee of the Whole, the gentleman 
is recognized to state his point of order.
  Mr. CONYERS. Mr. Speaker, pursuant to section 425 of the 
Congressional Budget and Impoundment Control Act of 1974, I make a 
point of order against the consideration of the bill, H.R. 3709, the 
Internet Nondiscrimination Act of 2000. Section 425 states that a point 
of order lies against legislation which imposes an unfunded mandate in 
excess of $50 million annually against State or local governments. Page 
2, lines 24 and 25 of H.R. 3709 contains a violation of section 425. 
Therefore, I make a point of order that this measure may not be 
considered pursuant to section 425.
  The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman from Michigan makes a point of 
order that the bill violates section 425(a) of the Congressional Budget 
Act of 1974.
  In accordance with section 426(b)(2) of the Act, the gentleman has 
met his threshold burden to identify the specific language of the bill 
on which he predicates the point of order.
  Under section 426(b)(4) of the Act, the gentleman from Michigan (Mr. 
Conyers) and a Member opposed each will control 10 minutes of debate on 
the question of consideration.
  Pursuant to section 426(b)(3) of the Act, after that debate, the 
Chair will put the question of consideration, to wit: Will the House 
now consider the bill in Committee of the Whole?
  The gentleman from Michigan (Mr. Conyers) is recognized for 10 
minutes and the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. Gekas) will also be 
recognized for 10 minutes.
  The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Michigan (Mr. Conyers).
  Mr. CONYERS. Mr. Speaker, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
  Mr. Speaker, I have made this point of order because it is necessary 
that we obtain additional information regarding the impact that the 
bill's unfunded mandate will have on State and local governments before 
we approve the bill. This is absolutely necessary. I would submit that 
not a Member of this body has any clear idea regarding how much this 
legislation will cost the States. The reason is, is because we have not 
had a single day or even a single minute of hearings on the 
legislation. We are flying totally blind. The

[[Page H2786]]

Congressional Budget Office has taken a brief look at the issue and 
they have merely told us that it will cost the States upward of $50 
million a year. But they have not told us how much more it will really 
cost.
  I can tell my colleagues that the National Governors Association, led 
by Republican Governor Leavitt of Utah, has estimated that a single 
provision in the bill eliminating the current grandfather clause 
concerning Internet access taxes will cost the States $85 million in 
the first year alone. In Texas alone, the provision will cost $50 
million this year, and $200 million by the year 2004. This could 
translate into 4,000 lost teachers and police officers in Texas alone.
  Mr. Speaker, I reserve the balance of my time.
  Mr. GEKAS. Mr. Speaker, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
  The issue at hand, the point of order, is one that involves, as has 
been stated, the so-called unfunded mandates. The purpose of the rule 
that we have adopted for ourselves on unfunded mandates, the procedure, 
is one to inform the Members, to let them know that what they are about 
to consider and eventually cast votes concerning contains unfunded 
mandates. So that the procedure will follow its natural course, then 
when it comes time to consider the bill, the Members can vote up or 
down on the bill, keeping in mind and considering and placing weight as 
they deem fit, placing weight on the fact that there are unfunded 
mandates contained in the bill.
  For that reason, we have already adopted the rule, we ought to 
proceed with the debate on the bill, and the Members will decide by 
voting on the bill finally whether or not unfunded mandates has 
anything to do with their final decision on the vote.
  Mr. Speaker, I yield back the balance of my time.
  Mr. CONYERS. Mr. Speaker, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
  Could I ask the gentleman from Pennsylvania if he can tell us how 
much this bill will cost the States?
  I yield to the gentleman from Pennsylvania for this purpose.
  Mr. GEKAS. Yes, the gentleman can ask that.
  Mr. CONYERS. Yes. Can the gentleman answer it?
  Mr. GEKAS. The gentleman has no answer. The question is one that 
could be answered by saying, more than a few dollars.
  Mr. CONYERS. I thank the gentleman for as precise an answer as he can 
muster at the moment. Could I also further inquire of the gentleman, 
have we had any hearings to help us with this particular problem?
  Mr. GEKAS. If the gentleman will yield further, the gentleman has in 
his possession, I assume, because it is in the report, the CBO 
estimates concerning the subject. I cannot improve on the work of the 
CBO, much as I would like to.
  Mr. CONYERS. The problem is really, have we heard from the governors 
of any of these States that will be affected in the course of the 
committee process?
  I think that this point of order should lie ahead of time, Mr. 
Speaker, not after the vote. That is the whole point of a point of 
order under section 425, because it lies against legislation which 
imposes an unfunded mandate in excess of $50 million annually against 
State or local governments.
  The cost of deferring consideration of the larger issue of the State 
tax simplification, which this bill effectively does, has been 
estimated as creating a State revenue loss of $20 billion per year, to 
say nothing of the private sector cost of complying with the complex 
State tax system. All of this lost revenue is going to have to come 
from somewhere, either in the form of reduced services such as police, 
fire and education, or increased income and property taxes. Neither is 
a very desirable policy outcome.

                              {time}  1045

  Now, I do not know if any of these estimates are correct or not, but 
I do know that we owe it to ourselves as legislators to learn the facts 
and determine the costs of the measure before we vote on it. Clearly, 
there is no rush concerning this matter. The current moratorium does 
not expire until October 21, 2001, 17 months from today.
  I need not remind the Members that it was the majority party which 
passed the unfunded mandates legislation in the first place as the very 
first measure in the Contract With America during the 104th Congress. 
We were told with much fanfare that the Republican Party was going to 
stop passing mandates on the State, or, at the very least, we would be 
aware of the cost of a mandate before they enacted them.
  Today, we will have an opportunity to see whether the majority will 
remain true to its promise to the States and the American people and 
uphold my point of order. We ought to look before we leap, and we 
certainly ought to know how much a bill will cost the States before we 
pass it.
  Mr. Speaker, I urge Members to vote ``no'' on any effort to disregard 
this point of order and proceed with the consideration of the bill 
before us. I urge that the point of order be supported.
  Mr. Speaker, I yield back the balance of my time.
  Mr. GEKAS. Mr. Speaker, I yield back the balance of my time
  The SPEAKER pro tempore (Mr. Sununu). The question is, Will the House 
now consider the bill in the Committee of the Whole?
  The question was taken; and the Speaker pro tempore announced that 
the ayes appeared to have it.
  Mr. CONYERS. Mr. Speaker, I object to the vote on the ground that a 
quorum is not present and make the point of order that a quorum is not 
present.
  The SPEAKER pro tempore. Evidently a quorum is not present.
  The Sergeant at Arms will notify absent Members.
  The vote was taken by electronic device, and there were--yeas 271, 
nays 129, not voting 34, as follows:

                             [Roll No. 154]

                               YEAS--271

     Aderholt
     Archer
     Armey
     Bachus
     Baker
     Ballenger
     Barr
     Barrett (NE)
     Barrett (WI)
     Bartlett
     Barton
     Bass
     Bateman
     Becerra
     Bereuter
     Berman
     Biggert
     Bilbray
     Bilirakis
     Bishop
     Blagojevich
     Bliley
     Blunt
     Boehlert
     Boehner
     Bonilla
     Bono
     Brady (TX)
     Bryant
     Burr
     Burton
     Buyer
     Callahan
     Calvert
     Camp
     Canady
     Cannon
     Castle
     Chabot
     Chambliss
     Chenoweth-Hage
     Coble
     Coburn
     Combest
     Cook
     Cooksey
     Cox
     Crane
     Cunningham
     Davis (VA)
     Deal
     DeFazio
     DeGette
     DeLay
     DeMint
     Diaz-Balart
     Dickey
     Dixon
     Doolittle
     Doyle
     Dreier
     Duncan
     Dunn
     Edwards
     Ehlers
     Ehrlich
     Emerson
     English
     Eshoo
     Etheridge
     Everett
     Ewing
     Fletcher
     Foley
     Forbes
     Fowler
     Franks (NJ)
     Frelinghuysen
     Gallegly
     Ganske
     Gejdenson
     Gekas
     Gibbons
     Gilchrest
     Gillmor
     Gilman
     Goode
     Goodlatte
     Goodling
     Goss
     Graham
     Granger
     Green (WI)
     Greenwood
     Gutknecht
     Hall (TX)
     Hansen
     Hastings (WA)
     Hayes
     Hayworth
     Hefley
     Herger
     Hill (MT)
     Hilleary
     Hinojosa
     Hobson
     Hoeffel
     Hoekstra
     Holt
     Hooley
     Horn
     Hostettler
     Hoyer
     Hulshof
     Hunter
     Hutchinson
     Hyde
     Inslee
     Isakson
     Jefferson
     Jenkins
     John
     Johnson (CT)
     Johnson, Sam
     Jones (NC)
     Kaptur
     Kasich
     Kelly
     Kildee
     Kind (WI)
     King (NY)
     Kingston
     Knollenberg
     Kolbe
     Kuykendall
     LaHood
     Largent
     Latham
     LaTourette
     Lazio
     Leach
     Lewis (CA)
     Lewis (KY)
     Linder
     LoBiondo
     Lofgren
     Lucas (KY)
     Manzullo
     Martinez
     McCarthy (NY)
     McCollum
     McCrery
     McHugh
     McInnis
     McIntosh
     McIntyre
     McKeon
     McKinney
     Meehan
     Menendez
     Metcalf
     Mica
     Miller (FL)
     Miller, Gary
     Mink
     Mollohan
     Morella
     Nadler
     Nethercutt
     Ney
     Northup
     Norwood
     Nussle
     Ose
     Oxley
     Packard
     Paul
     Pease
     Pelosi
     Peterson (PA)
     Petri
     Pickering
     Pickett
     Pitts
     Pombo
     Porter
     Portman
     Price (NC)
     Pryce (OH)
     Quinn
     Radanovich
     Ramstad
     Regula
     Reynolds
     Riley
     Rivers
     Roemer
     Rogan
     Rogers
     Rohrabacher
     Ros-Lehtinen
     Roukema
     Royce
     Ryan (WI)
     Ryun (KS)
     Salmon
     Sandlin
     Sanford
     Saxton
     Scarborough
     Schaffer
     Sensenbrenner
     Sessions
     Shadegg
     Shaw
     Shays
     Sherman
     Sherwood
     Shimkus
     Shows
     Shuster
     Simpson
     Sisisky
     Skeen
     Skelton
     Smith (MI)
     Smith (NJ)
     Smith (TX)
     Smith (WA)
     Snyder
     Souder
     Spence
     Spratt
     Stabenow
     Stearns
     Strickland
     Stump
     Sununu
     Sweeney
     Talent
     Tancredo
     Tanner
     Tauscher
     Tauzin
     Taylor (MS)
     Taylor (NC)
     Terry
     Thomas
     Thornberry
     Tiahrt
     Toomey
     Traficant
     Udall (CO)
     Upton
     Vitter
     Walden
     Walsh
     Wamp
     Watkins
     Watts (OK)
     Weiner

[[Page H2787]]


     Weldon (FL)
     Weldon (PA)
     Weller
     Whitfield
     Wicker
     Wilson
     Wolf
     Wu
     Young (AK)
     Young (FL)

                               NAYS--129

     Abercrombie
     Ackerman
     Andrews
     Baird
     Baldwin
     Bentsen
     Berkley
     Berry
     Blumenauer
     Bonior
     Borski
     Boswell
     Boucher
     Boyd
     Brady (PA)
     Brown (FL)
     Brown (OH)
     Capuano
     Cardin
     Carson
     Clay
     Clayton
     Clement
     Clyburn
     Condit
     Conyers
     Costello
     Coyne
     Cramer
     Crowley
     Cummings
     Danner
     Davis (FL)
     Davis (IL)
     Delahunt
     DeLauro
     Dicks
     Doggett
     Dooley
     Evans
     Farr
     Filner
     Ford
     Frank (MA)
     Frost
     Gonzalez
     Gordon
     Gutierrez
     Hall (OH)
     Hastings (FL)
     Hill (IN)
     Hilliard
     Holden
     Istook
     Jackson (IL)
     Jackson-Lee (TX)
     Johnson, E. B.
     Jones (OH)
     Kennedy
     Kleczka
     Klink
     Kucinich
     LaFalce
     Lampson
     Lantos
     Larson
     Lee
     Levin
     Lipinski
     Lowey
     Luther
     Maloney (CT)
     Maloney (NY)
     Markey
     Matsui
     McCarthy (MO)
     McDermott
     McGovern
     McNulty
     Meeks (NY)
     Millender-McDonald
     Miller, George
     Minge
     Moore
     Moran (KS)
     Murtha
     Napolitano
     Neal
     Obey
     Olver
     Ortiz
     Owens
     Pascrell
     Pastor
     Payne
     Peterson (MN)
     Phelps
     Pomeroy
     Rahall
     Rangel
     Reyes
     Rodriguez
     Rothman
     Roybal-Allard
     Sabo
     Sanchez
     Sanders
     Sawyer
     Schakowsky
     Scott
     Serrano
     Slaughter
     Stark
     Stenholm
     Stupak
     Thompson (CA)
     Thompson (MS)
     Thune
     Thurman
     Tierney
     Towns
     Udall (NM)
     Velazquez
     Vento
     Visclosky
     Waters
     Watt (NC)
     Wexler
     Weygand

                             NOT VOTING--34

     Allen
     Baca
     Baldacci
     Barcia
     Campbell
     Capps
     Collins
     Cubin
     Deutsch
     Dingell
     Engel
     Fattah
     Fossella
     Gephardt
     Green (TX)
     Hinchey
     Houghton
     Kanjorski
     Kilpatrick
     Lewis (GA)
     Lucas (OK)
     Mascara
     Meek (FL)
     Moakley
     Moran (VA)
     Myrick
     Oberstar
     Pallone
     Rush
     Turner
     Waxman
     Wise
     Woolsey
     Wynn

                              {time}  1114

  Ms. McCARTHY of Missouri, Ms. SANCHEZ, Ms. BERKLEY, Ms. CARSON, Ms. 
MILLENDER-McDONALD, and Messrs. CRAMER, MORAN of Kansas, and CROWLEY 
changed their vote from ``yea'' to ``nay.''
  Mr. HINOJOSA and Mr. HOEKSTRA changed their vote from ``nay'' to 
``yea.''
  So the question of consideration was decided in the affirmative.
  The result of the vote was announced as above recorded.
  A motion to reconsider was laid on the table.
  The SPEAKER pro tempore (Mr. Sununu). The House will consider the 
bill in the Committee of the Whole.
  Stated for:
  Mr. PALLONE. Mr. Speaker, on rollcall No. 154, I was not present, due 
to a meeting called by the President at the White House. Had I been 
present, I would have voted ``yea.''
  Mrs. CAPPS. Mr. Speaker, I was unavoidable detained earlier today and 
missed rollcall vote No. 154. Had I been here I would have voted 
``yea.''
  Stated against.
  Mr. BACA. Mr. Speaker, I was unavoidably detained for rollcall vote 
No. 154. Had I been here, I would have voted no.

                          ____________________