[Congressional Record Volume 145, Number 86 (Thursday, June 17, 1999)]
[House]
[Pages H4608-H4611]
From the Congressional Record Online through the Government Publishing Office [www.gpo.gov]




                                {time}  

  Finally, in December 1988, before the assault weapons ban, a man used 
an AK-47 assault weapon to fire 144 rounds in 2 minutes. Each round 
traveled at more than twice the speed of sound. That rifle uses a 
magazine that allows it to fire 100 rounds without reloading.
  Mr. Chairman, I would ask, to ensure that we close a loophole that we 
failed to close just a few minutes ago, that we support this amendment, 
because I think each day we prolong this, we will be shocked by the 
number of children that, one, can get access to multiple round 
ammunition; but also, those who will die by multiple round ammunitions.
  This amendment incorporates Senator Feinstein's amendment to the 
Senate juvenile justice bill. It prohibits the importation of all 
feeding devices with a capacity of more than 10 rounds of ammunition.
  Existing law prohibits the transfer and possession of ``large 
capacity ammunition feeding devices.'' 18 U.S.C. Sec. 922(w). Current 
law excepts any such device lawfully possessed on or before the date of 
enactment of the 1994 crime bill, which was September 13, 1994--devices 
manufactured after that date must be approved for import.
  This provision amends the definition of ``large capacity ammunition 
feeding device'' to delete the limitation to devices manufactured after 
September 13, 1994--all devices with a capacity of more than 10 rounds 
would be subject to the restrictions of the law. The proposal would 
retain, however, the existing ``grandfather'' exception in the law for 
devices lawfully possessed on or before the date of enactment.
  In Springfield, Oregon, on May 21, 1998, Kip Kinkel (15) walked into 
Thurston High School with a 30-round clip. He killed two students and 
wounded 22 others before he had to stop and reload. It was only then 
that another student overtook him and stopped the shooting spree.
  On April 20, 1999, Eric Harris (18) and Dylan Klebold (17) entered 
Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado, armed with two shotguns, 
a rifle, a TEC-DC9 assault pistol. They killed 15 people and wounded 
22. After the massacre, Mark Manns (22) turned himself in for illegally 
selling the TEC-DC9.
  In September 1994, police pulled over a car in central Michigan and 
found three men inside wearing face paint and dressed in military 
fatigues. In the car's trunk, the police found an M-1 Garand, a MAC-90 
assault rifle, and an M-14 semiautomatic assault rifle. The men, who 
were members of the Michigan Militia were arrested for possession of a 
loaded weapon in a car.
  In January 1999, a 19-year-old man used an AK-47 assault rifle to 
kill an Oakland, California police officer. AK-47's are made in Eastern 
Europe, Russia, and China.
  In 1996, two bank robbers armed with assault weapons and ammunition 
magazines holding 100 rounds each wounded ten officers and two 
civilians.
  In December 1988, before the assault weapon ban, a man used an AK-47, 
assault rifle to fire 144 rounds in two minutes. Each round traveled at 
more than twice the speed of sound. That rifle uses a magazine that 
allows it to fire 100 rounds without requiring reloading.
  Ms. DeGETTE. Mr. Chairman, may I inquire as to the time remaining.
  The CHAIRMAN. The gentlewoman from Colorado has 4 minutes remaining.
  Ms. DeGETTE. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself the balance of the time 
remaining.
  Mr. Chairman, by passing this amendment, we are taking a very 
important step toward keeping lethal weapons out of the hands of 
criminals and of children. There is no need for these magazine 
cartridges that carry dozens of bullets, the only purpose of which is 
to kill human beings and cause massive destruction. Congress was smart 
to ban their production 5 years ago, and it is now time to take the 
final step and close our borders to these killing machines. This is a 
vital, but only a part of the component to our comprehensive approach 
towards preventing youth violence by enacting moderate targeted child 
gun safety legislation.
  As part of a more comprehensive package, banning multiple-round 
ammunition cartridges will work, but unless we close the gun show 
loophole and unless we pass child safety locks on guns, this passage 
will not be complete, and we cannot send the message to our American 
families that Congress is doing everything it can to keep their 
children safe in the streets and in their schools.
  So I thank again the chairman of the Committee on the Judiciary, the 
gentleman from Illinois (Mr. Hyde), and I also thank my colleagues for 
working with me to pass this amendment, but only as part of a more 
comprehensive piece of legislation.
  Mr. Chairman, with that, I yield back the balance of my time.
  Mr. HYDE. Mr. Chairman, I associate myself with the remarks of the 
distinguished gentlewoman from Colorado. I yield 1 minute to the 
gentlewoman from California (Ms. Lofgren).
  Ms. LOFGREN. Mr. Chairman, I did want to briefly note that my 
colleague, the gentleman from California (Mr. Campbell) has an idea 
that we are not yet ready to pursue and that we hope we will have an 
opportunity tomorrow, if we are able, to perfect this idea by unanimous 
consent to pursue it if it works out. I did not want to neglect that. 
We do not need to go into it now, but we will work diligently tomorrow 
morning. I thank the chairman for the opportunity.
  Mr. HYDE. Mr. Chairman, I yield back the balance of my time.
  The CHAIRMAN. All time for debate on this amendment has expired.
  The question is on the amendment offered by the gentleman from 
Illinois (Mr. Hyde).
  The amendment was agreed to.
  The CHAIRMAN. It is now in order to consider Amendment No. 4 printed 
in part B of House Report 106-186.
  Ms. JACKSON-LEE of Texas. Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent to 
offer the amendment on behalf of the gentleman from Illinois (Mr. 
Hyde).
  The CHAIRMAN. The Chair would inform the gentlewoman that such a 
request is not in order. The rule provides that the amendment may be 
offered only by the gentleman from Illinois (Mr. Hyde) or his designee.
  Ms. JACKSON-LEE of Texas. Mr. Chairman, I have asked, and I thought I 
had the response, to be the designee, and I am getting a ``yes'' from 
the other side that I have been asked to be the designee.
  The CHAIRMAN. The Chair is advised that the gentleman from Illinois 
has decided that Amendment No. 4 is not to be offered, and that he 
appoints no designee to offer the amendment.
  It is now in order to consider Amendment No. 5.


                         Parliamentary Inquiry

  Ms. JACKSON-LEE of Texas. Mr. Chairman, I have a parliamentary 
inquiry.
  The CHAIRMAN. The gentlewoman will state it.
  Ms. JACKSON-LEE of Texas. Mr. Chairman, I see the gentleman has

[[Page H4609]]

walked off the floor of the House. It was my understanding, and I was 
told, that there was such designation made, and so my parliamentary 
inquiry is, who has withdrawn the designation? The Chair's response was 
there was no designee. I am here as a designee.
  The CHAIRMAN. The Chair was relayed a message from the gentleman from 
Illinois that he chose not to offer the amendment and has no designee 
to offer the amendment.
  It is now in order to consider Amendment No. 5 printed in part B of 
House Report 106-186.


                         Parliamentary Inquiry

  Ms. JACKSON-LEE of Texas. Mr. Chairman, I have a parliamentary 
inquiry.
  The CHAIRMAN. The gentlewoman will state it.
  Ms. JACKSON-LEE of Texas. Mr. Chairman, at this time I would appeal 
the ruling of the Chair on the basis of whether or not I was so 
designated. The gentleman from Illinois is not here. This is an 
amendment dealing with guns in the hands of children, and I cannot 
imagine why the designation has been withdrawn.
  The CHAIRMAN. The Chair would inform the gentlewoman that questions 
of recognition are not appealable.
  Ms. JACKSON-LEE of Texas. I thank the Chairman for his ruling. I am 
disappointed in not being able to discuss an amendment that would 
impact the lives of our children.
  The CHAIRMAN. It is now in order to consider Amendment No. 5 printed 
in part B of House Report 106-186.


                Amendment No. 5 Offered by Mr. Mc Collum

  Mr. McCOLLUM. Mr. Chairman, I offer an amendment.
  The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will designate the amendment.
  The text of the amendment is as follows:

       Part B Amendment No. 5 offered by Mr. McCollum:
       At the end of the bill, insert the following:

     SEC. ____. PROHIBITING JUVENILES FROM POSSESSING 
                   SEMIAUTOMATIC ASSAULT WEAPONS.

       Section 922(x) of title 18, United States Code, is 
     amended--
       (1) in paragraph (1)--
       (A) by striking ``or'' at the end of subparagraph (A);
       (B) by striking the period at the end of subparagraph (B) 
     and inserting a semicolon; and
       (C) by adding at the end the following:
       ``(C) a semiautomatic assault weapon; or
       ``(D) a large capacity ammunition feeding device.'';
       (2) in paragraph (2)--
       (A) by striking ``or'' at the end of subparagraph (A);
       (B) by striking the period at the end of subparagraph (B) 
     and inserting a semicolon; and
       (C) by inserting at the end the following:
       ``(C) a semiautomatic assault weapon; or
       ``(D) a large capacity ammunition feeding device.''; and
       (3) by striking paragraph (3) and inserting the following:
       ``(3) This subsection shall not apply to--
       ``(A) a temporary transfer of a handgun, ammunition, a 
     large capacity ammunition feeding device, or a semiautomatic 
     assault weapon to a juvenile or to the temporary possession 
     or use of a handgun, ammunition, a large capacity ammunition 
     feeding device, or a semiautomatic assault weapon by a 
     juvenile--
       ``(i) if the handgun, ammunition, large capacity ammunition 
     feeding device, or semiautomatic assault weapon are possessed 
     and used by the juvenile--
       ``(I) in the course of employment,
       ``(II) in the course of ranching or farming related to 
     activities at the residence of the juvenile (or on property 
     used for ranching or farming at which the juvenile, with the 
     permission of the property owner or lessee, is performing 
     activities related to the operation of the farm or ranch),
       ``(III) for target practice,
       ``(IV) for hunting, or
       ``(V) for a course of instruction in the safe and lawful 
     use of a firearm;
       ``(ii) clause (i) shall apply only if the juvenile's 
     possession and use of a handgun, ammunition, a large capacity 
     ammunition feeding device, or a semiautomatic assault weapon 
     under this subparagraph are in accordance with State and 
     local law, and the following conditions are met--
       ``(I) except when a parent or guardian of the juvenile is 
     in the immediate and supervisory presence of the juvenile, 
     the juvenile shall have in the juvenile's possession at all 
     times when a handgun, ammunition, a large capacity ammunition 
     feeding device, or a semiautomatic assault weapon is in the 
     possession of the juvenile, the prior written consent of the 
     juvenile's parent or guardian who is not prohibited by 
     Federal, State, or local law from possessing a firearm or 
     ammunition; and
       ``(II)(aa) during transportation by the juvenile directly 
     from the place of transfer to a place at which an activity 
     described in clause (i) is to take place the firearm shall be 
     unloaded and in a locked container or case, and during the 
     transportation by the juvenile of that firearm, directly from 
     the place at which such an activity took place to the 
     transferor, the firearm shall also be unloaded and in a 
     locked container or case; or
       ``(bb) with respect to employment, ranching or farming 
     activities as described in clause (i), a juvenile may possess 
     and use a handgun, ammunition, a large capacity ammunition 
     feeding device, or a semiautomatic assault weapon with the 
     prior written approval of the juvenile's parent or legal 
     guardian, if such approval is on file with the adult who is 
     not prohibited by Federal, State, or local law from 
     possessing a firearm or ammunition and that person is 
     directing the ranching or farming activities of the juvenile;
       ``(B) a juvenile who is a member of the Armed Forces of the 
     United States or the National Guard who possesses or is armed 
     with a handgun, ammunition, a large capacity ammunition 
     feeding device, or a semiautomatic assault weapon in the line 
     of duty;
       ``(C) a transfer by inheritance of title (but not 
     possession) of a handgun, ammunition, a large capacity 
     ammunition feeding device, or a semiautomatic assault weapon 
     to a juvenile; or
       ``(D) the possession of a handgun, ammunition, a large 
     capacity ammunition feeding device, or a semiautomatic 
     assault weapon taken in lawful defense of the juvenile or 
     other persons in the residence of the juvenile or a residence 
     in which the juvenile is an invited guest.
       ``(4) A handgun, ammunition, a large capacity ammunition 
     feeding device, or a semiautomatic assault weapon, the 
     possession of which is transferred to a juvenile in 
     circumstances in which the transferor is not in violation of 
     this subsection, shall not be subject to permanent 
     confiscation by the Government if its possession by the 
     juvenile subsequently becomes unlawful because of the conduct 
     of the juvenile, but shall be returned to the lawful owner 
     when such handgun, ammunition, large capacity ammunition 
     feeding device, or semiautomatic assault weapon is no longer 
     required by the Government for the purposes of investigation 
     or prosecution.
       ``(5) For purposes of this subsection, the term `juvenile' 
     means a person who is less than 18 years of age.
       ``(6)(A) In a prosecution of a violation of this 
     subsection, the court shall require the presence of a 
     juvenile defendant's parent or legal guardian at all 
     proceedings.
       ``(B) The court may use the contempt power to enforce 
     subparagraph (A).
       ``(C) The court may excuse attendance of a parent or legal 
     guardian of a juvenile defendant at a proceeding in a 
     prosecution of a violation of this subsection for good cause 
     shown.
       ``(7) For purposes of this subsection only, the term `large 
     capacity ammunition feeding device' has the same meaning as 
     in section 921(a)(31) of title 18 and includes similar 
     devices manufactured before the effective date of the Violent 
     Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994.''.

  The CHAIRMAN. Pursuant to House resolution 209, the gentleman from 
Florida (Mr. McCollum) and a Member opposed each will control 15 
minutes.
  The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Florida (Mr. McCollum).
  Mr. McCOLLUM. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself such time as I may 
consume.
  I think one of the things that we can all agree upon is that all 
Members here want to take reasonable steps to ensure the safety of our 
young people in the communities in which they live, play, and go to 
school. Our youth are America's finest resource. We have an obligation 
to protect this valuable national treasure. As a Congress, we may 
disagree on how to accomplish this objective; however, I know that we 
all agree that we are correctly focused on this objective today.
  Mr. Chairman, under current law, juveniles are prohibited from 
possessing handguns except in limited situations where they are under 
adult supervision. But existing law does not prohibit juveniles from 
possessing semiautomatic assault weapons, whether there is an adult to 
supervise or not.
  This is wrong. Limited, unfettered juvenile possession of 
semiautomatic assault weapons will help ensure that parents and 
children are free from the fear that these types of weapons will show 
up in school or on the playground or in the hands of other children.
  Mr. Chairman, the amendment I offer today will prohibit juveniles 
from processing semiautomatic assault weapons and large-capacity 
ammunition clips. It will only permit juveniles to possess these 
weapons and clips under adult supervision under limited context, such 
as in connection with employment, ranching, or farming activities; for 
target practice, for courses of instruction in the proper use of 
firearms, and like activities.
  My amendment also creates an exception for juveniles who serve in the

[[Page H4610]]

military, for use of such a weapon in self-defense, or for taking legal 
title, but not physical possession, of the weapon through inheritance. 
These exceptions are those that apply under the current law to the 
prohibition on juveniles possessing handguns.
  Mr. Chairman, I believe it is reasonable to prohibit juveniles from 
possessing these weapons. My amendment does just that. My amendment 
will make our young people safer, it will make our schools safer, it 
will make a lot of people feel a lot more comfortable.
  Again, I want to remind my colleagues that Congress needs to do 
everything possible to protect our finest resource, America's young 
people. I believe that this amendment strikes the right balance, and I 
urge my colleagues to adopt it and join me in passing it.
  Mr. Chairman, I reserve the balance of my time.

                              {time}  0150

  Ms. JACKSON-LEE of Texas. Mr. Chairman, I rise to claim the time in 
opposition.
  The CHAIRMAN. The gentlewoman from Texas (Ms. Jackson-Lee) is 
recognized for 15 minutes.
  Ms. JACKSON-LEE of Texas. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself such time as I 
may consume.
  Mr. Chairman, I am very much concerned as we move through this 
process that there will be elements where we could come together in a 
bipartisan manner that we might not utilize.
  This amendment, however, is important. I thank the gentleman from 
Florida (Mr. McCollum) and the gentleman from Illinois (Mr. Hyde) for 
offering this amendment, as would have many Democrats who would have 
joined in the offering of such amendment because it is important to 
keep the semi-automatic assault weapons out of the hands of children.
  This amendment would make it unlawful for juveniles under the age of 
18 to possess semi-automatic assault weapons and large-capacity feeding 
devices. It would also make it unlawful for any person to transfer such 
weapons and devices to juveniles.
  We need not be reminded of the horror and damage that automatic 
weapons, assault weapons, can cause. In fact, one of the most important 
acts of this Congress was the ban on assault weapons.
  I support this amendment, and I am glad that it has been offered. I 
hope, as well, that we will be able to come together in supporting the 
Democratic substitute. It is well known that the automatic weapons have 
no purpose, if you will, in the hands of children.
  A Virginia inmate survey showed that 20 percent of juvenile offenders 
had possessed an assault rifle and 1 percent carried it at the scene of 
a crime.
  A Shelley and Wright survey showed that 35 percent of juvenile 
offenders owned automatic or semi-automatic rifles just prior to 
commitment.
  One gun used in the Littleton, Colorado massacre was apparently a 
TEC-9, an infamous assault weapon. How often have we heard from the 
parents of that community, asking us to do something? So many of us 
tonight wear a ribbon in their memory.
  Two of these TEC-9 semi-automatic assault weapons were also used in 
the 1993 massacre at a San Francisco law firm in which eight people 
died and six were wounded.
  Byrl Phillips Taylor testified before the Committee on the Judiciary 
in May. These are her own words about the shooting of her son by a 
classmate with a semi-automatic assault weapon.

       Ten years ago my son Scott had just graduated from high 
     school. He was about to start Virginia Tech college, and to 
     put it simply, he was the light of my life and my best 
     friend. Scott was the son that every mother wants, popular, 
     good at school, always good-humored, never in trouble.
       But there was a boy in his school that didn't like him. 
     During the summer this boy found where Scott was working and 
     got a job there. He lured Scott into the woods and shot him 
     six times with an AK-47 assault rifle that was taken from an 
     unlocked gun storage shed. The first shot was in the back and 
     the last was an execution style shot to the head. Scott 
     Phillips didn't have a chance.

  I cannot say it any better, Mr. Chairman. I say to those who have 
called so many of my colleagues' telephones and E-mailed and faxed, I 
say in particular to the National Rifle Association that I think 
reasonable men and women can stand together on behalf of Byrl Phillips 
Taylor's son, who died at the hands of an assault weapon, a semi-
automatic assault weapon.
  Her son is one of the many children that have suffered at the hands 
of these guns. I think it is extremely important that we make a 
statement tonight that is effective and that is important that children 
under the age of 18 not be able to have access to these guns. This will 
increase, I think, the ability for us to save lives, and I would hope 
my colleagues would consider this in their deliberations.
  In fact, Mr. Chairman, I hope they consider the pages and pages and 
pages of children who have died at the hands of guns.
  Mr. Chairman, this amendment would make it unlawful for juveniles 
(under the age of 18) to possess semiautomatic assault weapons a large 
capacity ammunition feeding devices. It would also make it unlawful for 
any person to transfer such weapons and devices to juveniles.
  I support this amendment. I am glad that the gentleman from Illinois 
supports this provision from the Senate bill and I hope he will support 
the rest of the Senate bill by voting for the Democratic substitute.
  A Virginia inmate survey showed that 20% of juvenile offenders had 
possessed an assault rifle and 1% carried it at the scene of the crime. 
A Shelley and Wright survey showed that 35% of juvenile offenders owned 
an automatic or semiautomatic rifle just prior to comment. Bureau of 
Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, Guns Used in Crime 6 (July 
1995).
  One gun used in the Littleton, Colorado massacre was apparently a 
TEC-9, an infamous assault pistol.
  Two of these TEC-9 semiautomatic assault weapons were also used in 
the 1993 massacre at a San Francisco law firm in which 8 people died 
and 6 were wounded.
  Byrl Phillips Taylor testified before the Judiciary Committee in May. 
These are her own words about the shooting of her son by a classmate 
with a semiautomatic assault weapon:

       Ten years ago, my son Scott had just graduated from high 
     school. He was about to start Virginia Tech College, and to 
     put it simply, he was the light of my life and my best 
     friend. Scott was the son that every mother wants--popular, 
     good at school, always good-humored, never in trouble.
       But there was a boy at his school that didn't like him. 
     During the summer this boy found where Scott was working and 
     got a job there. He lured Scott into the woods and shit him 
     six times with an AK-47 assault rifle that was taken from an 
     unlocked gun storage shed. The first shot was in the back and 
     the last was an execution-style shot to the head. Scott 
     Phillips didn't have a chance.

  I can't say it better. Let's pass this amendment.
  Mr. Chairman, I yield such time as she may consume to the gentlewoman 
from California (Ms. Lofgren).
  Ms. LOFGREN. Mr. Chairman, I think an effort to remove the lawful 
ability of juveniles to possess assault weapons is an important thing 
for this Congress to do. I think that it is a very strange world we 
live in where a 17-year-old cannot vote, cannot go drink a beer, but 
can have an assault weapon. That to me does not make any kind of sense 
at all.
  So when I saw this amendment being offered, the title of the 
amendment, I was very enthused about the opportunity. However, I must 
confess that I oppose the amendment as it is drafted, because as one 
reads through this amendment, the loopholes included are large enough 
to drive a truckload of assault weapons right through them.
  If Members look at page 2, line 6, the subsection outlawing assault 
weapons, semi-automatic assault weapons, as well as large-capacity 
ammunition feeding devices, does not apply in a whole series of 
sections.
  One is in the course of employment, and that is not defined, but tell 
me what kind of employment requires a 16-year-old to use and possess an 
assault weapon?
  Further, there is a specific delineation that it is legal for a 
juvenile, anyone under 18, so I guess this could be 9, 7, 8, it is not 
clear, to possess an assault weapon in the course of ranching or 
farming.
  I know there are kids in my district who ranch, who have to have 
rifles. There are rattlesnakes and there are wild boar out in those 
hills. I understand that the ranchers need to have arms to be 
protected. I do not object to that in any fashion whatsoever.
  However, I do not know of a situation where little kids need to have 
assault weapons because their family has a farm.

[[Page H4611]]

  Further, if the child wants to use an assault weapon for target 
practice, hunting, or several other things, then it is lawful for them 
to have the assault weapon. I do not think this is control of assault 
weapons.
  I do not think that the provisions of this act will do anything 
effective to prevent juveniles from owning and possessing assault 
weapons. I think that is a shame. Therefore, I would urge my colleagues 
to oppose this amendment. I think that if anything, it goes in the 
opposite direction and specifically authorizes children to possess 
assault weapons. I think that is a preposterous situation, and would 
urge opposition.
  Ms. JACKSON-LEE of Texas. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself the balance of 
my time.
  Mr. Chairman, earlier this evening we heard the gentlewoman from New 
York (Mrs. McCarthy) in a very eloquent entreaty to this House asking 
us to do something right. But she also said something else to us, that 
this is not the end, it is only the beginning. We are not finished, 
there is much more to be done.
  That amendment on gun show loopholes was, unfortunately, not passed. 
This amendment in fact could go further. It is well known that much of 
the crime in the use of guns falls between the ages of 18 to 20. A 
recent report issued by the Department of the Treasury and the Justice 
Department shows that persons in the age group of 18 to 20 account for 
the highest number of gun homicides, the highest rate of gun use and 
nonlethal gun crimes, and the highest number of crime gun possessors 
when compared to other age groups.
  The report concludes that the high rate of gun crime in the 18 to 20 
age group is linked with easy access to firearms. Prohibiting the 
ownership of automatic assault weapons and guns with automatic feeding 
devices for persons under 21 will help reduce gun crimes committed by 
persons in the age group 18 to 20.
  We have just begun. There is a lot more work that could be done on 
this. In fact, Mr. Chairman, I would argue that the amendments that 
Democrats had that were not made in order would have made this whole 
discussion and the remedies much better. The amendment that I had to 
prohibit young people from going into gun shows without adults was not 
allowed.
  But since we have to start somewhere, I believe it is important that 
we join and support this amendment that prohibits juvenile possession 
of semi-automatic assault weapons for individuals under the age of 18.

                          ____________________