[Congressional Record Volume 145, Number 14 (Tuesday, January 26, 1999)]
[Senate]
[Pages S991-S1010]
From the Congressional Record Online through the Government Publishing Office [www.gpo.gov]
prayer
The Chaplain, Dr. Lloyd John Ogilvie, offered the following prayer:
Gracious God, You not only guide our steps, You order our stops for
quiet times of prayer. We hear Your words spoken through the psalmist.
``Be still and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations,
I will be exalted in the earth''--Psalm 46:10. Help us absorb the true
meaning of these words translating the original Hebrew. You call us to
let up, leave off, let go, and truly know that You are God. You are in
control. We cannot be still inside until we reaffirm that You are in
control of us, this Nation, and this Senate. We exalt You El Shaddai,
all-sufficient one; Adonai, our Lord; Jehovah-raah, our Shepherd who
guides; Jehovah-rapha, who heals our bodies and our relationships;
Jehovah-shammah, God who is here. Strengthen the Senators as they seek
to exalt You, as these pages of American history are written during
this trial. You bless the Nation that exalts You! Through Him who
taught us to seek first Your kingdom and Your righteousness. Amen.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Sergeant at Arms will make the proclamation.
The Sergeant at Arms, James W. Ziglar, made proclamation as follows:
Hear ye! Hear ye! Hear ye! All persons are commanded to
keep silent, on pain of imprisonment, while the Senate of the
United States is sitting for the trial of the articles of
impeachment exhibited by the House of Representatives against
William Jefferson Clinton, President of the United States.
The Journal
The CHIEF JUSTICE. If there is no objection, the Journal of
proceedings of the trial are approved to date.
The Chair recognizes the majority leader.
Mr. LOTT. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.
Order of Procedure
Mr. LOTT. For the information of all Senators, we are now prepared to
hear arguments regarding the subpoenaing of witnesses and the taking of
their depositions. I understand the House managers will submit the list
and begin their argument; the White House counsel will then state their
arguments, with the House managers making the final closing statement.
This period has been limited to 4 hours instead of the 6 hours that had
been earlier indicated.
I also expect a motion may be offered again to close the session with
regard to deliberations by the Senators. I need some further
consultation with Senator Daschle to confirm that. It could be that we
could work it out without having to do the recorded vote. Therefore,
votes could occur this evening--probably between 4:30 p.m. and 5
o'clock.
As always, we expect to take a break after about an hour and a half
in the proceedings, and it may be a little bit longer than usual, so
that if Senators were not able to grab a quick bite, they might be able
to grab a little something in the cloakroom during that first break. So
it might be a little longer than ordinary. And I expect that will occur
sometime around 1:30 approximately.
Before we begin, since I see that there are still a few Senators who
are not in the Chamber, I suggest the absence of a quorum, Mr. Chief
Justice.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. The clerk will call the roll.
The legislative clerk proceeded to call the roll.
Mr. LOTT. Mr. Chief Justice, I ask unanimous consent that the order
for the quorum call be rescinded.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. Without objection, it is so ordered.
Mr. LOTT. If all Senators, counsel and managers would return to their
desks, I believe we are ready to begin.
Mr. Chief Justice, again, just for the information of all Senators,
what happens next is I believe that a manager will be recognized on
behalf of the House to present a motion with regard to subpoenaing
witnesses and then the presentations will begin first by the House
managers and then by the White House counsel and then closed by the
House managers to be spread over 4 hours, but that at approximately
1:30 we will take a break so that we can assess how to proceed the
balance of the day, and perhaps even get a bite to eat if Senators
hadn't had that opportunity. It won't be an extended break, but it will
be longer than normal.
[[Page S992]]
I believe we are ready to proceed, Mr. Chief Justice.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chair recognizes Mr. Manager Bryant on behalf
of the House managers.
Motion for Appearance of Witnesses and Admission of Evidence
Mr. Manager BRYANT. Mr. Chief Justice, I have a motion to present.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. The manager will send the motion to the desk. The
clerk will read the motion.
The legislative clerk read as follows:
Motion of the United States House of Representatives for
the appearance of witnesses at a deposition and to admit
evidence not in the Record.
Now comes the United States House of Representatives, by
and through its duly authorized Managers, and respectfully
submits to the United States Senate its motion for the
appearance of witnesses at a deposition and to admit evidence
not in the record in connection with the Impeachment Trial of
William Jefferson Clinton, President of the United States.
The House moves that the Senate authorize and issue
subpoenas for the appearance of the following witnesses at a
deposition for the purpose of providing testimony related to
the Impeachment Trial:
1. Monica S. Lewinsky;
2. Vernon Jordan; and
3. Sidney Blumenthal.
Further, the House moves that the Senate admit into
evidence the following material not currently in the record:
1. the affidavit of Barry Ward, Law Clerk to the Honorable
Susan Webber Wright, U.S. District Court Judge for the
Eastern District of Arkansas;
2. the sworn declaration of T. Wesley Holmes, and
attachments thereto; and
3. certain telephone records which document conversations
between Monica S. Lewinsky and William Jefferson Clinton,
including a 56-minute exchange on December 6, 1997.
Additionally, the House petitions the Senate to request the
appearance of William Jefferson Clinton, President of the
United States, at a deposition, for the purpose of providing
testimony related to the Impeachment Trial.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. Pursuant to Senate Resolution 16, as modified by
the order of January 25, the managers on the part of the House of
Representatives and counsel for the President each have 2 hours to
present their arguments on this motion.
The Chair recognizes Mr. Manager Bryant.
Mr. Manager McCollum.
Mr. Manager McCOLLUM. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.
Mr. Chief Justice and Members of the Senate, we are here today to
argue for the presentation of witnesses, and I want to state at the
outset a couple of observations of mine regarding this.
The House managers have always understood the Senate's sense of the
rules on these matters, and we don't question that fact. But I think it
is important, to set the record clear here today, to say at the outset
that we have always believed, and we still do believe, that 10 or 12
witnesses are what we should have and should have been permitted to
call to prove our case. We have estimated that this could be done in a
matter of 2 weeks at the outside, including all cross-examination. That
is what we think the normal order would have been; it is what we think
it should have been. But we have been told again and again, and we
believe it is true, that if we made such a request it would not be
approved. And a few weeks ago we thought--maybe even a few days ago--
that we could submit a list of maybe five or six witnesses and there
would be a reasonable chance that for deposition they would be approved
and maybe two or three of them actually could be presented here live in
the Chamber.
Now we have been led to believe, and we think it is an accurate
assessment, that in order to get a vote to approve the opportunity to
take depositions alone, whether or not anyone is called, we cannot
submit more than two or three witnesses to you.
That is what we have done today. We have submitted a motion for
simply three witnesses: Monica Lewinsky, Vernon Jordan, and Sidney
Blumenthal.
The two people who know the most about this are Monica Lewinsky and
President William Jefferson Clinton, and while we have not submitted to
you today the name of President Clinton in our motion, we strongly urge
that if you allow us to have witnesses, which we believe you should,
that you, in addition--or even if you don't--on your own call President
Clinton here to testify. We think that it is exceedingly important that
you have an opportunity, we have an opportunity for you to examine him
and these other witnesses to get at the truth of this matter and to end
all the speculation that would resolve this matter and let you draw the
proper inferences and conclusions.
I will simply say that I am going to make a brief outline of the
matter of why we should have witnesses for you, the three we are asking
for, and I will be followed in order, so you can get some sequence to
this, by Manager Bryant, who will discuss in detail the reason why we
think it is appropriate to call specifically Monica Lewinsky; Manager
Hutchinson, who will discuss Mr. Jordan as a witness; and Manager
Rogan, who will discuss Mr. Blumenthal.
If our motion is granted--I want to make this very, very clear--at no
point will we ask any questions of Monica Lewinsky about her explicit
sexual relations with the President, either in deposition or, if we are
permitted, on the floor of the Senate. They will not be asked. That, of
course, assumes that White House counsel does not enter into that
discussion, and we doubt that they would.
Secondly, we do not see why the entire process of deposing and
calling all of these witnesses right here live would have to take more
than just a very few days, 2, 3, 4, 5, maybe early next week at the
latest. There is no reason why it has to be longer than that. We
absolutely reject the argument that some were making--and I do not know
why they were making it--that somehow, if we have a single witness out
here, it is going to mean weeks and weeks of protracted delay in this
trial.
That is not so, and certainly not so with the three witnesses we are
asking you today to permit us to present.
I also want to address the argument that has been made by some that
witnesses should only be permitted if there is new evidence.
Now, we believe, we managers, that we will present to you new
evidence with the witnesses that we have asked you to let us depose,
but think through this with me for one moment. Under the rules you have
set up, if we take depositions, which we are required to do, of every
one of these witnesses, at the end of the day when those depositions
are completed, all the new evidence that we could imagine certainly
will be--from those three witnesses--in those depositions, and the
argument will be made, I am sure, that there is no reason to have a
live witness out here at all.
That had to be a preconceived notion by somebody who thought of that
in the first place. If that is the argument, that should not be the
standard. It should be one of the standards but not the standard, not
the sole standard. There is a lot more to a witness, and the reason why
you need to have a witness out here, than simply new evidence.
In real criminal trials, virtually all witnesses are deposed before
they are brought to trial, and then the counsel on each side decide
which witnesses they will call. They are called. They are examined.
They are cross-examined. And unless a witness is deceased or laid up or
there is some other extraordinary reason why that witness isn't there,
especially a key witness, then the witness normally is here live.
It is especially true in a case like this where much of the evidence,
not necessarily all of it--there is quite a bit of direct evidence--but
much of the evidence is circumstantial and requires you to draw, as
many finders of fact do all across this country every day, inferences
and conclusions that involve the credibility of the witness, that
involve the way it is said, that involve inflections and spontaneity of
the witness, the exchange of the counsel asking the question and the
witness, and a description and flavor of which you simply can't get
without having the person here to observe.
That is what jurors do all the time. I think it is especially
important, as well, because there is conflicting testimony.
Now, I do not suppose we have a stand here today, but you have in
front of you a credibility of witness instruction I think we passed
out. We would like for you to keep it. It is a credibility of witness
instruction that--here it is over here on this side. It is a
credibility of witness instruction that is
[[Page S993]]
longer than that. I just excerpted a part of it and put it up here on
this board. I know you can't all see that but you should have this
sheet. If you don't, please ask for it. This is a jury instruction that
is given in the District of Columbia. It is something that is given
here as a part of our Federal system. And it is important, I think, for
this particular paragraph, to read it, to understand it, because you
wouldn't even write this jury instruction if you didn't expect to have
live witnesses:
In reaching a conclusion as to the credibility of any
witness, you may consider any matter that may have a bearing
on the subject.
That is part of the instruction.
You may consider the demeanor and behavior of the witness.
I think that is important. It is the third paragraph you looked at,
the bottom paragraph.
You may consider the demeanor and the behavior of the
witness on the witness stand; the witness' manner of
testifying; whether the witness impresses you as a truthful
person; whether the witness impresses you as having an
accurate memory and recollection; whether the witness has any
motive for not telling the truth; whether the witness had a
full opportunity to observe the matters about which he or she
has testified; whether the witness has any interest in the
outcome of this case or friendship or hostility toward other
people concerned with this case.
Demeanor, manner, truthfulness, how the witness impresses you--if you
don't have that witness here, and it is a critical witness, there is no
way as a trier of fact you can make those judgments fairly. There just
isn't any way. We think that it is terribly critical, not only that we
are permitted to depose these witnesses, but with respect particularly
to Monica Lewinsky and perhaps all three of them, that we be permitted
to bring those witnesses here at the end of the day and examine them
and let the President's counsel examine them.
The arguments of the President's counsel have been, to some extent,
to you and to me--and I have heard it repeated several times--that
somehow circumstantial evidence is not that important, that it is
somehow inferior to direct evidence. I am not going to pass out a jury
instruction on that again. You have already heard us talk about that.
The reality is the jury instruction, if we passed one out to you today,
would say exactly what we said before: Circumstantial evidence is given
the same weight, the same weight as direct evidence. Inferences have to
be drawn.
I don't know any case in this country in a criminal matter--or
rarely; I should not say ``any.'' I suppose there is a confession that
always you get once in a while and you read about it in the paper. But
in almost every criminal case, you have to draw inferences; there has
to be circumstantial evidence of some sort. There is nothing wrong with
that. President's counsel has said that somehow the nature of the
evidence means that you should automatically acquit him. I just don't
buy that at all.
What are inferences? Let's put inferences up for a second so you can
look at that. Inferences are on this side. This is another jury
instruction. I don't know if you have got this one, but we will give it
to you. This is another one that is given out:
An inference is a deduction or a conclusion which you . . .
as finders of facts--are permitted to draw . . . from
the facts which have been established by either direct or
circumstantial evidence. In drawing inferences you should
exercise your common sense. . . . You are permitted to
draw from the facts which you find to be proven, such
reasonable inferences as would be justified in light of
your experience.
A few days ago one of the White House counsel, Mr. Kendall, attempted
to make you think it was very difficult to prove a crime by
circumstantial evidence. You may remember Mr. Kendall told the story
about a fellow who came out of his house one morning and he saw his
driveway was wet and he immediately thought it must have rained last
night. But, Mr. Kendall said, this man noticed right after that that
his neighbor's water sprinkler was dripping and he thought, well, maybe
the water sprinkler caused it to be wet. And he used that
illustration--ended the story right there--of how difficult
circumstantial evidence is and how likely you might draw the wrong
conclusion from inferences.
Mr. Kendall didn't allow you to proceed with the next commonsense
step that shows how powerful circumstantial evidence can be. Let's
suppose the man got up in the morning, he walked out of his house, he
saw that his driveway was wet, he thought maybe it had rained. He
immediately observed the water sprinkler was dripping. He thought,
well, maybe the water sprinkler caused it and he looked down the street
then and looked at not only his neighbor's sidewalk where it was wet as
well as his, and the driveway, but he looked at his neighbor's. And he
looked at several others all around his neighborhood and they were dry.
The obvious conclusion from circumstantial evidence is the neighbor's
water sprinkler caused his sidewalk or his driveway to be wet and it
didn't rain. It is a kind of a reasonable, commonsense, inferential,
circumstantial conclusion you are allowed to draw. You are the finders
of fact, and I think that that suggestion was wrong.
But this is why we need witnesses. You need to be able to see the
temperament, you need to be able to have the background, you need to be
able to have the feel or the flavor to draw those inferences properly.
In the impeachment case before you, you have both direct and
circumstantial evidence that the President engaged in a pattern of
obstruction, perjury, and witness tampering designed to deny the court
in the Jones case what Judge Wright had determined that Jones had a
right to discover in order to prove her claim. You have to use your
common sense to get at this. Seeing, hearing, observing those live
witnesses is important.
If you remember at the outset of this case, at the outset of these
proceedings, I tried to draw your attention to what this was about in a
nutshell. Some have said it is a theory of the case. The White House
wants to call it speculation. It is not speculation. It is what, from
all the evidence--especially once you have heard Monica Lewinsky and
Vernon Jordan and Sidney Blumenthal, I think adding the flavor that you
need to have, adding the body language you need to observe, adding the
credibility that you need to establish in this--I think that is the
proper inference and the proper conclusion you need to draw.
What was that nutshell? I won't bore you with going into every detail
again, but I want to remind you what the record, we think, shows that
this additional witness presentation would augment and be very
important to. It shows the President had a well-thought-out scheme. He
resented the Jones lawsuit. He was alarmed when Monica Lewinsky's name
appeared on the witness list and even more alarmed when Judge Wright
issued her order signaling the court would hear the evidence of the
relationship.
To keep his relationship with Monica Lewinsky from the court once it
was apparent to him he was going to have to testify, he knew he would
have to lie to the court. To succeed at this, he decided he had to get
Monica Lewinsky to file a false affidavit to try to avoid her
testifying. He needed to get her a job to make her happy, to make sure
she executed the affidavit and then stick with her lies if questioned.
Then the gifts were subpoenaed. He had to have her hide the gifts,
the only tangible evidence that could link him to her. She came up with
the idea of giving them to Betty Currie and the President seized on
that. Who would think to ask Betty? Then he would be free to lie to the
court in the deposition. But after this, he realized he had to make
sure Betty would lie and cover for him. He got his aides convinced to
repeat his lies to the grand jury and the public, and all this worked
until the dress showed up. Then he lied to the grand jury to try to
cover up and explain away his prior crimes.
The President knowingly, intentionally, willfully set out on a course
of conduct in December 1997 to lie to the Jones court, to hide his
relationship, and to encourage others to lie and hide evidence to
conceal the relationship with Monica Lewinsky from the court.
That is the straightforward case that we presented. It is there. But
it is very important that you recognize this is not speculation but it
is supported by the evidence. But it needs to have the witnesses here.
I am not going to go into every one of the articles. I am not going
to go over all that again. You have them in
[[Page S994]]
front of you. But you know there are four provisions, four different
provisions of the perjury article, and there are seven counts in the
obstruction article. And, in addition to the seven counts, we believe
you have the right to consider the lies the President made in the civil
Paula Jones deposition as a part of his obstruction of justice, as
written in the body of that article.
Why do I raise what is there on the table? Well, you can find the
President guilty of any one of the perjury or obstruction of justice
charges. In our judgment, if you find him guilty of any one, you can
convict him and you can remove him from office. We think that is
appropriate. We think that you should, that every one of them rises to
that level.
I want to make a point to you, too, for example, about the first one
in the perjury, about the nature and details of his relationship with
Monica Lewinsky. Let's just say for a minute, so you will get this one
clear, if I could beg your indulgence, there were a lot of questions
raised out here about particular statements that might be perjurious,
some of which may have sounded a little bit more stretched to you than
others did. But the body and the gravamen of that is that they are all
grand jury perjury about that relationship. Cumulatively, that is what
you are voting on. You are not voting on each and every one of these;
particularly ``the'' singular lie that hangs the President of the
United States. And there are four--there are three more in addition to
that to look at. So, please, look at all of them.
We also strongly believe that each of these constitutes high crimes
and misdemeanors. It is very hard for us to conceive that there is a
different standard for impeaching the President and impeaching a judge.
We know that has been argued to you out here, but it is very hard for
us to conceive of this. On the other hand, I am aware that many of you
believe, and I am sure some of you at least do--I hope it is not many,
but I said many--that no matter whether or not the President is guilty
of the perjury and obstruction of justice, everything that is in here
in great detail, everything we have told you, there are some of you who
believe that none of that rises to the level of a high crime and
misdemeanor and that the President should not be removed from office.
On the other hand, I think that the majority of you do believe that,
if the President committed all of this, surely it would rise to the
level of high crimes and misdemeanors. How can you leave a man in
office who is President of the United States who has so intentionally,
through his scheme that he has concocted to deny the court justice,
deny information to a person who is trying to plead their case, gone
through it systematically and lied again and again and again and then
went intentionally, calculatingly, and lied to the grand jury about it
again?
It is very hard to conceive of that. But I also suspect that most of
you at the end of the day will question some of these and, as I said
earlier, you don't have to conclude that he committed all of them to
convict him, certainly not to find him guilty of the charges, but
somewhere in between. Is it 50 percent of them? Is it seven-eighths of
them? How many of them does it take? What is the weight for some of
you? Each one of you will be judging this differently.
But in that process, there is no doubt in my mind that you need to go
through the process of looking and hearing from these witnesses to make
that decision, and if you have a doubt, not in your own mind, maybe
some of you have no doubt at all that he is guilty of any and all of
these crimes, but if you think one of your other colleagues does have
that doubt at this moment, for gosh sakes, let's let the witnesses come
here and let us have the chance to erase that doubt in the way you
normally do in a trial.
For a few of the criminal charges under the articles of impeachment,
under both of them, it is our judgment that the President's guilt is so
clear and convincing and compelling that we don't think that any
witnesses are needed to be called in deposition or in person.
First, contrary to the impressions that the White House counsel would
like to leave you, it should be clear to anybody reading the record
that the President committed perjury before the grand jury when he told
that he never touched certain body parts of Ms. Lewinsky, which
touching the President admitted would clearly be within the definition
of sexual relations in the Jones case.
Ms. Lewinsky testified that he touched these parts on a number of
different occasions in a manner clearly within the President's
understanding of that definition. The record contains testimony from at
least six different friends and counselors with whom Ms. Lewinsky spoke
and described these details contemporaneously as they occurred.
White House counsel has repeatedly tried to dismiss this absolutely
clear perjury by claiming that Ms. Lewinsky's testimony is
uncorroborated and, therefore, you couldn't prove perjury to the court.
They say again and again and again, it is a ``he says-she says''
situation.
This is a gross misstatement of the law. Even if there were no
corroborating witnesses--and there are in this case--a person could be
and would be convicted of perjury before any court in this country
based on the evidence that is in this record now. We don't have to
bring anything else in here, and we are not planning to do so to prove
that.
The law covering grand jury perjury, which has been on the books
since 1970, does not require a corroborating witness and does not
require corroborating evidence. There are more than 100 people serving
in Federal prison today who have been convicted under this 1970 grand
jury statute for perjury where it is one person's word against another,
several of them for lies about sexual relations.
All you need to convict is to accept Monica Lewinsky had no motive to
lie about this, the President did, and you have to draw the inferences
you logically can from the chain of events that are in this record. But
even though you don't need any corroborating testimony, there is
corroborating testimony. There are the six people--friends and
counselors--with whom she talked about this contemporaneously. Again,
the White House counselors have tried to persuade you, wrongly, that
you should not consider this, that this would not be admissible, these
corroborating witnesses in any courtroom in the country, they say, and
that is not true.
There are at least three exceptions to the hearsay rule which would,
in all probability, permit those prior consistent statements to come in
and corroborate that testimony.
The bottom line is the perjury of the President in this case is as
plain as day on the record, and we don't need to call any witnesses on
this matter. And we also believe there are a number of other perjuries
in that grand jury, that I am not going to go into detail about, that
are just as plain on the record. We don't need to call witnesses that
he perjured himself when he told the grand jury it was his goal to be
truthful in the Jones deposition. That is what he told the grand jury.
It was his goal to be truthful.
The record is replete with many lies that he told in that deposition
and, in the face of telling the grand jury that his goal was to be
truthful, he committed perjury.
Nor do we believe that any witness needs to be called to further
establish the President's guilt of the crime that is obstruction of
justice and witness tampering in the case where he met Betty Currie on
the day after his Jones deposition and suggested to her all those false
declaratory statements that we have been over so many times in here.
Betty Currie's testimony in this matter is undisputed on the record.
The White House counsel's argument that the President was just
refreshing his memory is absurd on its face.
The same is true of the obstruction of justice and perjury charges
related to allowing his attorney during the Jones deposition to make
false and misleading statements with regard to Ms. Lewinsky's affidavit
and then lying about not even paying attention to the attorneys'
exchange with the judge on this matter. The record is clear. You
watched the videotape on it. Inferences are perfectly appropriate to be
drawn from body language. You saw it on the videotape. You saw it. No
more witnesses are needed. The President committed these crimes.
[[Page S995]]
On the other hand, we believe that you do need--we need to bring in
witnesses to resolve conflicting testimony to give you a true picture
of the President's scheme to lie and conceal evidence for the other
obstruction of justice charges and certainly for the last perjury
charge. They are more complex. They are more dependent on
circumstantial evidence and inferences you logically have to draw. And
that is why you need to hear from Monica Lewinsky, Vernon Jordan and
Sidney Blumenthal, to tell you about these things themselves.
When you do, you are just plain going to get a different flavor; you
are going to feel the sense of this. We believe you will find at the
end of the day, once you have done that, even though you don't need to
use this standard, that the President is guilty of the entire scheme we
presented to you in every detail beyond a reasonable doubt.
Remember, you don't need to convict him to find him guilty of all of
the crimes we have suggested by any stretch of the imagination. You
don't need to use the beyond a reasonable doubt standard. That is not
required of you. But we can understand why many of you or some of you
might.
The reality is that we are in a position--you are in a position--
where you need, though, to make these determinations, and to make them
you need to have the witnesses. In any courtroom where you are going to
certainly judge something beyond a reasonable doubt, you need to assess
the credibility of the witnesses where you have conflicting testimony.
One point in that regard, too, is, we have heard White House counsel
say a number of times that somehow the fact that there is so much
conflicting testimony makes our case weaker. That is not so. Again,
unless the bad guy admits he is guilty, when you go to trial in a
criminal case you always have conflicting testimony, at least you
certainly have the accused denying it, and very, very frequently, most
often, you have a lot of other people who are conflicting.
The fact that there is conflict is something for the triers of fact
to resolve, but, again, resolve by listening to the witnesses, checking
their demeanor, watching their body language, determining their
credibility, feeling the case-flow, seeing how it fits together,
watching.
I am not going to be the one describing what Monica Lewinsky is going
to show you if she comes in here. I am going to tell you, even if we
depose her, having had the opportunity to talk with this intelligent
and very impressionable young woman the other day, I can tell you that
she herself will convey this story to you in a way that it cannot be
conveyed off a piece of paper. It just cannot be.
I suppose that is why the White House counselors are so afraid of our
calling any witnesses. They don't want you to have the opportunity to
see that, an opportunity you can only get the full flavor of if not
only you let us take the depositions, but you at least let us call her
live here on the floor, preferably with our other two witnesses as
well.
They know that the written record conceals this. There is no way to
lift that out. There is no way for you to see the relationship, how she
responds to the questions, how she answers, how she conducts herself in
making it very apparent what the President's true meaning and intent
was.
If you remember, a lot of this is his state of mind. In the not too
distant future, Monica Lewinsky is going to be free of the gag order
and is going to go out and talk to people freely. She should. At that
point in time, she is going to have the public judging her, and they
are going to be judging this case, as will history, and I suggest that
the public at that point in history as well will be judging you and not
judging the Senate well if it doesn't let her come here and testify.
Let me briefly turn to the last thing I want to do. I want to
describe, so you know what it is, the three additional pieces of new
evidence we would like admitted in this motion.
First is the affidavit of Barry W. Ward who had been a law clerk to
Judge Wright during the consideration of the Jones case. None of this,
I think, should be controversial, but we do have it, and I want to
cover it briefly. In his affidavit, he attests to the fact that at
President Clinton's deposition in the Jones case, that he, Mr. Ward,
was sitting at the conference table next to Judge Wright, that he was
able to observe the colloquy between the judge and Mr. Bennett.
You recall, Mr. Bennett was engaged in this colloquy about the
affidavit of Monica Lewinsky. And that is what you saw, the film
footage of the President and the questions. Was the President
observant? Was he watching? Was he keen? And that affidavit goes to
that point. And it is the testimony of Mr. Ward with regard to the fact
that the President was observant.
Secondly, we have a piece of new evidence, and that is the
declaration of the Jones attorney, T. Wesley Holmes, and the attached
copies of the subpoena in that case, the subpoena in that case to Betty
Currie, dated January 22, 1998, along with proof of service, dated
January 27, 1998.
Mr. LEAHY addressed the Chair.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chair recognizes the Senator from Vermont.
Mr. LEAHY. Mr. President, parliamentary inquiry. It is my
understanding that Senate Resolution 16 says----
The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Senator from Vermont is advised it takes
unanimous consent to allow a parliamentary inquiry in the proceeding.
Mr. LEAHY. Mr. Chief Justice, I object to the references the manager
is making to new information. It is my understanding that from Senate
Resolution 16, the material outside the record may only be presented in
connection with a motion to expand the record. This new information--we
have skirted it already with the Lewinsky interview this weekend, but
now the latest that Mr. Manager McCollum states, I would say
respectfully, expands that record and, indeed, we are not at that
point.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. Yes. I think the motion that the managers have
made is a motion to authorize the presentation of evidence that is not
in the record. And so I think that is a fair comment. I overrule the
objection.
Mr. LEAHY. I thank the Chief Justice.
Mr. Manager McCOLLUM. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.
The attachments to Mr. Holmes' declaration is the proof of the
subpoena being issued to Betty Currie in January, on January 22, 1998,
along with service in the Jones case on January 27, 1998, and a copy of
the supplemental witness list, including the name of Betty Currie,
which was served on January 23, 1998. And in his declaration, Mr.
Holmes explains that Ms. Currie was subpoenaed because of testimony
given by President Clinton in his deposition and because of reliable
information which the attorneys had received to this effect--that Ms.
Currie was an instrumental person in facilitating Monica Lewinsky's
meetings with the President and central to their ``cover story,'' as
Mr. Holmes refers to it. He explicitly denies that any ``Washington
Post'' article played any part in the decision of the Jones attorneys
to subpoena Ms. Currie.
And in the third and final piece of new evidence that we ask you to
take in and accept is a declaration and accompanying documents with
regard to a telephone conversation showing that a conversation occurred
on December 6 for 56 minutes between the President and Ms. Lewinsky,
which we believe that is what it shows. Obviously, the phone records
show the phone records. And they state what they are. But we suggest to
you that that is relevant information because it confirms what we think
the testimony in the record otherwise would lead you to believe.
At this point in time, having given you an overview and having given
you this amount of new evidence, I want to turn the microphone over and
yield to my colleague, Mr. Bryant, the rest of the time.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chair recognizes Mr. Manager Bryant.
Mr. Manager BRYANT. Mr. Chief Justice, may I inquire as to our time
remaining?
The CHIEF JUSTICE. Just under 90 minutes.
Mr. Manager BRYANT. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.
Distinguished Senators, a recent letter from Manager Hyde to Senator
Daschle stated that it has always been the position of the House
managers
[[Page S996]]
that a trial with the benefit of relevant witnesses is in the best
interest of the Senate and the American people. The defense attorneys
for the President, as well as others in this body, have publicly stated
that they do not want witnesses.
Through the question-and-answer session that we have just
participated in over the last few days, some in this body have made it
clear that they would prefer a few sharply focused witnesses limited
only to the most relevant witnesses. We heard this. And as a result of
our submission this morning, you will see that we have proposed three
witnesses.
Now, as background, we have brought this down from some 15 witnesses
that we initially thought we would like to call. We eliminated,
obviously, many witnesses that we would still like to call. But with
respect for this body, and certainly the sensitivity that we feel, we
heard that three witnesses would be probably the best situation.
I think from, again, the tone of the questions, the directness of
many of the questions, we did get that message clearly. And from these
three witnesses we feel that we have the broadest coverage of the two
articles of impeachment.
Within the obstruction article, there are in essence seven so-called
counts, seven instances that we allege. And with these three witnesses,
we managed to cover six of those seven, with the one that we don't
quite cover being the tampering with Betty Currie. As you will note she
is not on that list. But, again, bringing this down to three, we had to
eliminate, again, some witnesses we would have preferred to call.
Also, based on what we have read and what we have heard, it is clear
that a very few have already determined that even assuming the truth of
the articles of impeachment--the perjury and obstruction of justice--
that they are insufficient to convict this President of high crimes and
misdemeanors. Since each of you, as Senators, must consider this matter
and vote your own conscience with impartial justice, that is apparently
your individual decision, although with all due respect, I would
suggest a premature decision before all the proof and all the arguments
are made.
One example of not having heard a complete case is Ms. Lewinsky. She
is probably the most relevant witness, that is, aside from the
President himself who so far has indicated through his counsel that he
will not testify; and I might add also has not answered the questions
that at least some Senators sent to the White House for his answering,
based on his attorney's statement that he would be willing to answer
questions.
So with that aside, Ms. Lewinsky is probably the most important
witness left. And wouldn't you at least like to see and hear from her
on this? As the triers of fact, wouldn't you want to observe the
demeanor of Ms. Lewinsky and test her credibility--as I say, look into
the eyes and test the credibility of these witnesses? Compare her
version of the testimony to the contested events. And remember, the
President's attorneys, in numerous ways, in their vigorous defense of
the President, have challenged Ms. Lewinsky's version of the facts.
I believe the majority of other Senators have not yet reached a final
determination, and it is to you now that I make this further
proposition. If there is one witness you and the American people
honestly do need to hear, it is Ms. Lewinsky. As you probably read in
the newspapers, her lawyers don't want her to testify. They are good
lawyers, and they don't want to have her out here.
And despite the protestations of the White House and their attorneys
during the House hearings that they wanted to hear fact witnesses, we
now know absolutely and without a doubt the White House does not want
to hear Ms. Lewinsky--does not want you to hear Ms. Lewinsky. And Ms.
Lewinsky, if the truth be known, probably does not want to come in here
and testify.
These are not our witnesses. We didn't get this case in a brown
envelope. We sort of didn't have any choice in selecting the witnesses.
The witnesses are all out there--basically White House employees,
friends of the White House, or former employees. These are not going to
be our friends if they come in and testify. They are not going to be
sympathetic to us, although we can anticipate that they would tell the
truth. And that certainly would be our belief with Ms. Lewinsky if she
were called.
We believe she understands her responsibility, despite any feelings
that she might have about the President, or the job that he is doing as
President, that she understands the responsibility to tell the truth.
And Senators, she does have a story to tell. And given the link that
she has, that common thread that she has in most of the charges of
these articles of impeachment, I would suggest that she should be
permitted to testify.
I would go further to say that a closure of this case is somehow
necessary, and without the direct presentation by Ms. Lewinsky, we
all--political and public--would be denied the complete picture that
she should be able to give us to better sort this out. As Manager
Graham said yesterday, please don't leave us all hanging for the
answers we so dearly need.
Is this good, is it bad or is it ugly? We managers believe that it is
bad, ugly and illegal. We all like to talk about the Constitution, and
it is a great document. The opportunity to confront witnesses is
present in that Constitution, and it can be argued that this principle
of confrontation of witnesses against you should apply to these
proceedings. While we realize that confrontational right is one that
belongs to the criminal defendant in the Constitution, in this case
apparently any right to confront Ms. Lewinsky and other witnesses is
being waived by the President and his lawyers since they don't want to
call witnesses in these proceedings.
Isn't it time, though, for the rest of us to make that choice that we
do want to see and hear some witnesses? Her testimony, in particular,
would be extraordinarily enlightening in resolving factual disputes
about the very charges for which we ask you to convict the President of
the United States for the felonies of perjury and obstruction of
justice. These particular charges go to the very heart of our cobranch
of government, the Judiciary. And Members of the Senate, in terms of
the impact on our judicial system in the search for truth, there is no
difference between a person lying, which is perjury, and a person
paying another person to lie, which is bribery. The bribery is in the
Constitution and the perjury is not specifically mentioned.
In terms of this proposition of proportionality, is the 106th Senate
prepared to have as its record of sexual harassment laws that perjury
about sex is not illegal? After all, that is what this whole
proportionality argument is about, that if it is about sex it is OK to
lie. Because Senator Bumpers said that upwards of 80 percent of his
divorce cases from his Arkansas practice of law involve lying, that
does not legitimize perjury, nor should it provide any authority for
this Senate to somehow legitimize perjury if it is just about sex.
We allege that the President, in a reasoned and in a calculated
manner, prevented Paula Jones from obtaining truthful testimony and
evidence that might have helped her lawsuit. At the time the President
attempted his coverup efforts, he, obviously, felt the disclosure of
that information in the Paula Jones case would be material and helpful
to her. The President not only committed himself to illegal actions,
but he enlisted others to assist, some knowingly, and others, perhaps,
unknowingly.
Ms. Lewinsky is one of these who, interestingly enough, might fit
into both categories of knowing and unknowingly at different times. She
would be able to share with this Senate the so-called tone and tenor of
her conversations with the President. Who else can do that but she or
the President?
This tone and tenor and observing her demeanor and listening to her
talk about that filing of the affidavit and those things, and how the
President talked to her and how she read what he said and exactly what
he did say, these are all very important, because as we know in
Washington, and so many other places where there is a lot of power and
prestige and so forth, there are actions that can be prompted without
even a direct specific order. Things can get done even without it being
said just by the tone and tenor, the gestures, the appearance and so
forth of
[[Page S997]]
certain things. Often these direct words, as I said, are not necessary.
And Ms. Lewinsky can tell you about some of these occasions.
An appropriate examination--and an appropriate cross-examination, I
might add; let's don't limit the White House attorneys here--of Ms.
Lewinsky on the factual disputes of the affidavit and their cover
story, wouldn't that be nice to hear? The concealment of gifts--what
really happened there and the job search--why did she get the job
within 48 hours of the affidavit, after months of unsuccess? Wouldn't
it be nice to hear Ms. Lewinsky's version of this when it is so
important to the overall case of obstruction of justice?
These are just a few examples where the Senate could be helped by her
testimony, and it very well could be dispositive, and it is even
possible that she could help the President in some ways. But I assure
you that she is an impressive young lady, and I suspect that she still
very much does admire the President and the work that he is doing for
this country. Yet, she would be a person who in all likelihood would be
forthcoming.
If you have not made up your mind, and, indeed, if you have further
interest in resolving many of the facts here, I do commend Ms. Lewinsky
for your consideration. It would be my intent to lead her through
direct examination, the perjury charge, as it is alleged with the
President, by having her simply affirm those provisions of her written
testimony which are the ones that are generally referred to as
salacious, without specifically mentioning those words.
On the more complicated obstruction of justice, the pattern of
obstruction of justice which does not involve these salacious details
and matters, they will be addressed more specifically. It would be my
intent for immediate clarification and to dissolve discrepancies and
different inferences that have been drawn by House managers and defense
counsel for the President, to ask her about the December 28 transfer of
Ms. Lewinsky's gifts from the President--transfer to Ms. Currie,
particularly the cellular telephone call that has been put into issue
by the defense team, about her conversation with the President and her
offer to allow him to review this false affidavit before she submitted
it to her lawyer and eventually to the court, and his comment that he
didn't need to review it because he had seen 15 others just like it.
Wouldn't you like to know what are we talking about--15 others? Fifteen
drafts or 15 other type of affidavits in other cases?
She would also be asked about her job interviews and her discussions
with the President about these job interviews over a period of time,
which are very important, her discussions with Vernon Jordan, and
specifically why she felt that the interview that she did with Revlon
the day after she signed the affidavit, her impression that it went
poorly, whereas we heard--not testimony, but statements in the
presentation of White House lawyers that, in fact, it didn't go poorly,
it went very well, but she felt it went so poorly that she went
immediately out to call Vernon Jordan. Why? Why not hear her come in
and tell us why she did that?
There will, of course, be other matters of record that she can
clarify, and certainly being available to the White House defense team
she will be vigorously cross-examined. I am sure that might also
clarify other matters.
It is my feeling that a fair and comprehensive examination without
interruption could be conducted of Ms. Lewinsky in 2 to 4 hours, and
depending on the length of cross-examination by White House attorneys,
we may not need any redirect examination.
While defense counsel for the President and others for the
President--I heard it so many times, I am not sure exactly who said
this so I don't want to attribute to defense counsel, and maybe they
haven't even said it, but there has been word out of the White House
that if we call one witness, we might as well settle into a siege here
in the Senate; we will be here for months and months and months. I
suggest that is an outrageous statement, that we will need that amount
of time to pursue this case if witnesses are called.
We are confident that that, basically in its best case, is an attempt
to discourage you from calling witnesses; and in its worst case,
unfortunately, is a veiled threat that they will be dilatory and drag
this out for months and months if the Senate would allow.
House managers are establishing a good-faith effort to cut our
witnesses, as I said, down to three people, and to commit to reasonable
times of examination with the assurance that we will finish this as
quickly as we can and we will hope and perhaps the Senate their defense
team.
Witnesses can be called and a fair trial could be accomplished if all
concerned would agree. Would the Senate consider requesting the
President's defense team to also select 3 or fewer witnesses in an
effort to move this process along? And we think, too, that the
depositions, while they are important, if they are solely for the
purpose of discovery, I ask, why would the White House need to discover
what Vernon Jordan has to say, what Betty Currie has to say, or Sidney
Blumenthal, or John Podesta--any of these witnesses? They would have to
take Monica Lewinsky's deposition, but any other discovery deposition,
it seems to me, they have complete access to already.
As I close, I want to leave you with some words that have been of
some comfort to me, and I think we have all needed some comfort at
times during these proceedings. It is a very short quote of the opening
remarks of Judiciary Committee Chairman Peter Rodino in 1974. Again, in
part, he says:
We know that the very real security of this Nation lies in
the integrity of its institutions and the informed confidence
of its people.
He talked about the Nixon hearings.
We will conduct our deliberations in that spirit. It has
been said that our country, troubled by too many crises in
recent years, is too tired to consider this one. In the first
year of the Republic, Thomas Paine wrote, ``Those who expect
to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the
fatigue of supporting it.''
Back to Rodino:
Now for almost 200 years, Americans have undergone the
stress of preserving their freedom and the Constitution that
protects it. It is now our turn.
Ladies and gentlemen of the Senate, I respectfully ask you to permit
the House managers to call these 3 named witnesses and add this
additional evidence. I thank you. I yield to Mr. Manager Hutchinson.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chair recognizes Mr. Manager Hutchinson.
Mr. Manager HUTCHINSON. Mr. Chief Justice, ladies and gentlemen of
the Senate, my responsibility is to address the testimony of Vernon
Jordan and the need to call him as a witness in this case.
Before I go into the details of that, let me just reflect for a
moment on the Senate trial process. I said many days ago that I had
confidence in the United States Senate, and I thought that at this
particular juncture it might be good if I reassured you that I still
had confidence in the United States Senate. When I think about the
trial process that we are going through, I have to compliment you on
the fact that you have structured a bipartisan process. I think that is
important because you gave this process credibility. So you did the
right thing, and I, for one, am pleased with what you were able to
accomplish in that endeavor.
Now, whenever you achieve a bipartisan process, you have to make
compromises along the way. And the result is a format that is not
particularly helpful to the trial managers, the House managers, who
wish to call witnesses. We have struggled through that. But
notwithstanding the present difficulty, I still compliment you and
thank you for what you have done in achieving that bipartisan
consensus. I think back to that meeting that I had early on, and some
other managers, with the bipartisan group of Senators from this body--
and I now look at some from both sides of the aisle--and I went in
there with this high-minded thought that we could make a case for
witnesses because of what the other managers have described as the tone
and demeanor of witnesses. Well, that was quickly brushed aside by them
saying, ``No, no, no, we want to hear about what conflicts exist in the
testimony; just tell us what the conflicts are because that is a strong
case for calling witnesses.'' Well, that threw me back on my heels. So
I went back and, as you know, in the question and answer session I
addressed the question of conflicts. I think we did a good job of
outlining the conflicts between various witnesses.
[[Page S998]]
Well, then I was informed that, ``We really are not as interested in
the conflicts because the conflicts exist in the current transcript.
Therefore, really, we want to know what new information and what
dynamic these witnesses can add.'' That threw me back for a curve. So
we looked at this again and we tried to make a case.
I'm going to show you what new dynamics and questions can be asked.
Ultimately, when you take the depositions, many of those questions are
going to be answered. So you come back full circle to where we started
in the beginning--that ultimately I hope witnesses are called so you
can evaluate their credibility, determine their demeanor, and assess
the truth in this case. I think that is important. I know people talk
about me as being a former Federal prosecutor. Actually, at one time, I
confess, I represented a defendant in a murder case. This gentleman was
charged with murder, and the prosecution in Logan County, Arkansas --
near Senator Bumpers' hometown--decided they wanted to handle one of
the key witnesses by deposition, as that person was out of State. I
objected and objected, because I thought that witness ought to be in
the courtroom. The judge overruled me and said, ``You can go take the
deposition and the defense counsel will be there to cross-
examination.'' So we traipsed off to the other State and took this
witness' deposition, and she made a lousy witness. I said she would not
be believed for anything because of the way she appeared. Well, we
brought the transcript back to the courtroom. The prosecution, over my
objection, put the transcript into the record and, all of a sudden,
that cold transcript was believable --particularly when they had it
read by another witness that didn't look anything like the original
lady. My client was convicted, but that case was reversed in the
Arkansas supreme court because the court said it was important that the
jury look into the eyes of the witness, see the demeanor of that
witness and determine the credibility.
So ultimately, we come back to that same point--that somehow you are
going to have to resolve the conflicts. I know of only one way to do
it. We have tried to be extraordinarily helpful and cooperative with
the United States Senate. I came in with this idea that we were going
to present this case with 14 or 15 witnesses. Clearly, that is off the
table. We have narrowed this down to 3 witnesses; that is tough to
decide, but we believe that represents the basic heart of the
obstruction of justice case and gets to at least 6 of the 7 elements,
so that you can evaluate that. But we want to assist you, clearly, in
getting to the truth, but also to bring this matter to a conclusion
fairly and as expeditiously as possible.
Now, let's look to Mr. Vernon Jordan. Should he be called as a
witness in this case? His testimony goes to the heart of one of the
elements of obstruction of justice--that is, the job search and the
false affidavit, and the interconnection between those. I have tried,
during my presentation of this case, to present portions of his
testimony--excerpts, if you will, from his testimony. But you will see
that he has testified 5 times before the Federal grand jury. I have
read all of this. I am not going to ask for a show of hands, but how
many of you have read all of this? And so you have had to rely upon a
trial--an ordeal by lawyers, rather than a trial by witnesses because I
have had to present the testimony of Vernon Jordan in excerpt fashion
with limited quotes here and there--as the defense counsel has done
likewise. That makes it difficult because the problem is, one, you are
hearing it from her, but, second, it is not a story, it is excerpts,
and there is no way you can assess the truth because of that.
If you look at the times that Mr. Jordan has testified before the
grand jury: March 3, 1998; March 5, 1998; May 28, and June 9; the last
time he ever testified was June 9, 1998--let's look at what has
happened since then, since Mr. Jordan last testified before the grand
jury. I believe these charts are in front of you.
July 22, Ms. Currie testified before the grand jury. So any of the
facts we gain from Ms. Currie were not utilized in the last examination
of Vernon Jordan.
August 6, what happened on that date? Ms. Lewinsky testified before
the grand jury and she revealed some new facts during that time that
Mr. Jordan has never had an opportunity to explain, respond to, or
answer. I will go into that. One of them is about disposing of notes.
The second one is about drafting the affidavit. And, of course, by that
time the DNA on the dress had been revealed.
Then the next thing that happened was the President's revelation to
the Nation that this relationship did exist. And then he testified
before the grand jury. All of the facts revealed from those instances
were not revealed at the time Vernon Jordan last testified before the
grand jury.
Obviously, any lawyer would understand there are naturally questions
that arise from each of those incidents that could be posed to Mr.
Jordan. Why has that not been done? Quite frankly, I have talked to, as
I mentioned the other day, the attorney for Mr. Jordan. I have not
talked to Mr. Jordan personally. I think that clearly the Senate does
not want us to do that until we get past this next hurdle. But those
are the things that need to be resolved.
Let me address briefly three areas of conflicts and testimony between
Mr. Jordan and Ms. Lewinsky that point up other areas of questioning
that would be appropriate that he should have the opportunity to
explain.
I have been accused of being harsh to Mr. Jordan, and I don't mean to
be that way. There have been certain things that have been stated by
witnesses in this case that ought to be explained, that ought to be
questioned of Mr. Jordan. But we need to have good answers to these
questions. We need to know those answers.
The first conflict--I will get to that--is between Mr. Jordan's
testimony and Ms. Lewinsky's testimony about whether Mr. Jordan knew
the true nature of the relationship with the President.
In Mr. Jordan's testimony of May 28, he was asked a question,
``You're saying no one to your recollection ever suggested or alleged a
sexual relationship prior to the 18th of January between Monica
Lewinsky and the President.'' The answer: ``That is correct.''
That was on May 28. Ms. Lewinsky was asked the same series of
questions months later--in August of 1998--and she indicated, she
testified, ``And I remarked that I really didn't look at him as the
President''--that, ``I saw him more as a man and reacted to him more as
a man and got angry at him like a man and just a regular person. Mr.
Jordan asked me what I got angry at the President about. So I told him
when he doesn't call me enough or see me enough.''
Another statement:
And so after we had the conversation I was just talking
about with Mr. Jordan, he said to me, ``Well, you know what
your problem is,'' and I said, ``What?'' He said, ``Don't
deny it,'' and he said, ``You're in love. That's what your
problem is.''
This is Monica Lewinsky referring to what Mr. Jordan had said.
So clearly those are relevant questions that need to be readdressed
to Mr. Jordan because they were raised by Ms. Lewinsky in subsequent
testimony that have never been asked to him in that fashion.
There is a conflict in the testimony between Mr. Jordan and Ms.
Lewinsky about whether the subpoena was discussed at the December 22
meeting. Mr. Jordan testified in March that, ``We did not talk about
the subpoena. She wanted to know about her job. That was the purpose of
her coming.'' And the question was, ``Anything beyond that?'' The
answer was, ``No.''
And that is March 6 of 1998. Ms. Lewinsky testified contrary.
Let's turn our attention then to December 22, which is the day she
met with Frank Carter. ``And I think you said you were going to meet
with Mr. Jordan.'' Answer: ``So I came to see Mr. Jordan earlier, and I
also wanted to find out if he had in fact told the President that I had
been subpoenaed.''
That was her testimony which is in direct conflict--that the subpoena
was discussed on the same day that she went to see Mr. Carter about the
representation.
Where is the relevance in this?
If you recall, Mr. Jordan said it didn't take an Einstein to figure
out that, whenever you combine whenever she got the subpoena, that it
changed the circumstances.
Here you have three problems. You have a job search, you have a
witness
[[Page S999]]
in court, and if you combine that with the knowledge of a relationship,
those are three dynamite issues combining together that should cause
anyone--not just one change of circumstances but it elevates it to a
higher level of danger because of the correlation between each of those
three separate facts--each of these conflicts, and the testimony of
Monica Lewinsky goes to those key fundamental issues. And Mr. Jordan
has never been asked sufficiently about those areas.
The third conflict--this is key--is the testimony of Monica Lewinsky.
Mr. Jordan testified that he never talked to Ms. Lewinsky about Linda
Tripp. That is his March 5, 1998, testimony. But Ms. Lewinsky testifies
in her August 6 testimony about a meeting with Mr. Jordan on December
31.
This is the third exhibit. I will read that:
And I met Mr. Jordan for breakfast on . . . the morning of
[December] 31st, at the Park Hyatt Hotel. And in the course
of the conversation I told him that I had had this friend,
Linda Tripp . . . and I was a little bit concerned because
she had spent the night at my home a few times and I
thought--I told Mr. Jordan, I said, well, maybe she's heard
some--you know--I mean, maybe she saw some notes lying
around. And Mr. Jordan said, ``Notes from the President to
you?'' And I said, ``No, notes from me to the President.''
And he said, ``Go home and make sure they're not there.''
This is Ms. Lewinsky's testimony of August 6 before the grand jury.
And before anything is said, I am not accusing anyone of anything.
But let me tell you, it would be significant if Mr. Jordan is asked a
question if that is a true statement and he says yes. It is significant
to the case. If he says no, that is significant because there is a
clear conflict in the testimony of Ms. Lewinsky. And her testimony goes
to the heart of the issue. If he says, ``I don't remember,'' which is a
third alternative--by the way, I hate giving these prospective
witnesses all my questions--but if he says, ``I don't remember,'' that
does not put the issue in dispute with Ms. Lewinsky and establishes
really her recollection of the incident.
So I could go through more. I could go through more conflict with Ms.
Lewinsky about whether Mr. Jordan saw the unsigned draft copy of her
affidavit, a key issue in this case. Ms. Lewinsky testifies one way.
Mr. Jordan did not have the benefit of Ms. Lewinsky's testimony when he
was asked earlier in the grand jury. So that needs to be addressed with
him.
There is a conflict with Ms. Lewinsky on whether they discussed the
contents of the affidavit--not just whether they saw the signed
affidavit, but whether the contents were discussed. The question to Mr.
Jordan was, ``Did you ever discuss with Ms. Lewinsky what she was going
to include in the affidavit?'' Answer: ``I was not Ms. Lewinsky's
lawyer. The answer to that is no.''
But he goes on and elaborates on that. Ms. Lewinsky testified that
she and Jordan did have a conversation about deleting a certain
sentence in the affidavit and reworking that.
That is what I just covered on the contents of the affidavit.
Let me just go to one other on the conflict where the affidavit was
discussed at their last meeting. Mr. Jordan testified in March that she
came into the office:
She gave me a tie. I said, ``Monica, I am really busy,
thank you.'' And she thanked me, and she is gone.
``Any subsequent conversation?'' The answer: ``No.''
Ms. Lewinsky's testimony is:
I stopped in to see him for five minutes to thank him for
giving me the job, and I gave him a tie.
She further testified,
I believe I showed him a copy of the affidavit.
Clear conflict, very important, once again showing a connection
between the job, the false affidavit, and, of course, if you tie in the
other aspect about the relationship, it gets very significant and
something that needs to be further inquired about.
So there are some of the conflicts between the testimony, and an area
that we need to inquire of Mr. Jordan about.
The notes to the President that Ms. Lewinsky said she had a
conversation with him about, that has never been addressed to Mr.
Jordan whatsoever.
The December 19 meeting we need to explore more with Mr. Jordan. This
is the meeting when Ms. Lewinsky was subpoenaed. She called Mr. Jordan.
He says, ``Come over.'' She goes over there to meet with Mr. Jordan,
and during that meeting, according to the telephone logs, Mr. Jordan
received a call from the President of the United States. Mr. Jordan has
testified that he told the President that Ms. Lewinsky got subpoenaed.
That appears to be exactly during the meeting--the conversation he is
having with Ms. Lewinsky.
I think appropriate questions to Mr. Jordan are: Did you excuse Ms.
Lewinsky from the meeting? Did you have a private conversation with the
President about the subject that you were talking to Ms. Lewinsky
about? And when you renewed your conversation with Ms. Lewinsky, did
you in fact tell her about your conversation with the President? If Ms.
Lewinsky was not told about that conversation, I think there is some
significance there, that things were going on that people were
compartmentalizing and not sharing with the other interested parties,
and I think that is significant and that needs to be explored. His
involvement with reviewing the affidavit needs to be developed, and the
conflicts, his knowledge of the nature of the relationship with Ms.
Lewinsky.
So all of these need to be further explored. There are a number of
unanswered questions.
One final area. I obviously have a number, but I don't want to
belabor this point. There was testimony I mentioned about Mr. Isikoff
and how Betty Currie felt compelled to go see Mr. Jordan about Mr.
Isikoff inquiring about the courier records on the gifts from Ms.
Lewinsky to the President. There is some indication that that
information might have been shared with Mr. Frank Carter because Ms.
Lewinsky testified that she received a page from Mr. Carter, her
attorney, about the Isikoff call, the Isikoff request. How did that
information get to Mr. Carter? I think there are some legitimate
questions that should be asked there.
So we would respectfully ask the Senate to permit us to call Mr.
Jordan as a witness, to depose him. But, further, we hope we will be
able to call him so that you can evaluate the conflicts that I am sure
exist now, that very likely will exist later on as well. The story
needs to be told. The truth should be determined. Justice should be
accomplished. That is done not through lawyers up here talking, it is
not done through transcripts, but through witnesses. Edmund Burke said
that to fail to hear the evidence is to fail to hear the cause. I know
that you have transcripts, but I would contend to you that to fail to
hear these witnesses is in essence to fail to hear the cause.
Recess
Mr. LOTT. Mr. Chief Justice, could I inquire about the balance of the
time remaining for the House managers?
The CHIEF JUSTICE. Yes. The managers have 52 minutes remaining.
Mr. LOTT. Do they intend to use more of their time now?
Well, Mr. Chief Justice, I ask unanimous consent that we take a 30-
minute break at this point.
There being no objection, at 1:22 p.m., the Senate recessed until
1:59 p.m.; whereupon, the Senate reassembled when called to order by
the Chief Justice.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chair recognizes the majority leader.
Unanimous-Consent Agreement
Mr. LOTT. Mr. Chief Justice, I have a unanimous consent request to
propound. We have discussed this with Senator Daschle and it has been
cleared.
I ask unanimous consent that following the conclusion of the
arguments by the managers and the White House counsel today on the
motion to subpoena witnesses, it be in order at that point only for
Senator Harkin or Senator Wellstone to make a motion to open that
debate pursuant to his motion timely filed, and that the Senate proceed
immediately to the vote, pursuant to the impeachment rules.
I further ask that following that vote, if defeated, it be in order
to move to close the session for deliberations on the motion to
subpoena witnesses, as provided under the impeachment rules of the
Senate and proceed to immediate vote.
If we have any change in either one of these, certainly we would have
to ask for consent on that and would notify Members to that effect.
[[Page S1000]]
I further ask that if the Senate votes to proceed to closed session,
those deliberations be limited to 3 hours equally divided between the
two leaders, notwithstanding the 5-minute allocation of time under the
impeachment rule.
I further ask unanimous consent that when the Senate concludes its
business today, it stand in adjournment until 1 p.m. on Wednesday,
January 27.
Finally, I ask unanimous consent that pursuant to S. Res. 16, the
votes occur immediately upon convening on Wednesday, first on the
motion to dismiss, and if defeated, the motion to subpoena witnesses
without intervening action or debate.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. In the absence of objection, it is so ordered.
Mr. LOTT. I believe, Mr. Chief Justice, we are ready to proceed with
White House counsel.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chair recognizes Mr. Counsel Kendall.
Mr. Manager ROGAN. Mr. Chief Justice, we reserve our time.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. Very well.
Mr. Kendall.
You are going to use it now? You have 52 minutes remaining. The Chair
recognizes Mr. Manager Rogan.
Mr. Manager ROGAN. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice, Members of the
Senate. When I was a trial judge back in California, there was
something I had to do in every single case, whether it was a criminal
or civil case, and that was to advise the triers of fact --in that
particular case, the jury--that what the lawyers say is not evidence.
This is a universal warning that is given in courtrooms throughout the
country to the triers of fact, because the law prefers that those
people who have to make the determination as to what the facts are make
that determination based not only on interpretation of the evidence,
but based upon what the evidence actually is. And that has been the
underpinning of our argument before this body from the very first day
as to why witnesses are needed--not to accommodate us, but for the
Senate to be able to make the ultimate conclusion as to what is the
truth.
A perfect example of why the evidence should come from witnesses
rather than lawyers can be seen from the fact that throughout these
proceedings lawyers on both sides have tried to characterize what is
the evidence and tried to characterize the interpretation that this
body should adopt.
I am reminded when we were before the Judiciary Committee, just
before we voted articles of impeachment, White House counsel suggested
to our committee, as they do before this body, that the President's
state of mind during his various statements under oath were intended to
mislead people but to be truthful. They say the President didn't lie.
Instead, they say he carefully crafted these hypertechnical definitions
to protect himself from any perjury charge.
We believe the evidence will show that by so doing, Paula Jones was
denied the information a Federal judge said she was entitled to have
and, thereby, perjury and obstruction of justice lie.
Before the Judiciary Committee, Mr. Ruff reaffirmed this was the
President's strategy. This is what Mr. Ruff told our committee:
Question to Mr. Ruff:
I do want to make sure I understand your position. From the
beginning, the President has taken the position that he never
lied to the American people or lied while giving testimony
under oath. Essentially claims he simply misled [them] with a
different definition, and he was sending the same message
both to the American people and the court.
Answer by Mr. Ruff:
I think that is fair, Congressman. Yes.
Question:
And he did that intentionally, because in his own mind he
drew a distinction between the technical definition of
``sexual relations'' and the definition of ``improper
relationship,'' or something along those lines, which is how
he now characterizes his relationship with Monica Lewinsky?
Answer by Mr. Ruff:
Yes, I think that's correct.
Question:
You suggested earlier in your testimony this distinction is
one he has drawn since the Jones deposition. My notes
indicate you said the definitions are one that he held in
his mind in January and in August and he has so testified.
Answer by Mr. Ruff:
Yes.
Question:
In determining whether the President either perjured
himself or lied under oath in this matter, you are asking the
committee to look to his state of mind from the beginning of
this whole episode and make that determination?
Answer:
Yes.
Members of this body, we suggest that the evidence has shown, and the
evidence will further show by the calling of the witnesses that we
propose, that the President denied under oath specific facts that were
relevant to the case, relevant to the Jones case, relevant to the
perjury and obstruction investigation by the grand jury, and, in so
doing, among the other lies that my colleagues have pointed out, we
will show that he lied to his aides.
This is important, because he, the President, admitted he knew that
his aides were potential witnesses in a criminal investigation before
the grand jury. This is the portion of the grand jury transcript where
the President testified about his conversations with key aides once the
Monica Lewinsky story became public.
Question to the President:
Did you deny it to them or not, Mr. President?
Answer: . . .I did not want to mislead my friends, but I
wanted to find language where I could say that. I also,
frankly, did not want to turn any of them into witnesses,
because I--and, sure enough, they all became witnesses.
Question: Well, you knew they might be witnesses, didn't
you?
Answer: And so I said to them things that were true about
this relationship. That I used--in the language I used, I
said, there's nothing going on between us. That was true. I
said, I have not had sex with her as I defined it. That was
true. And did I hope that I would never have to be here on
this day giving this testimony? Of course. But I also didn't
want to do anything to complicate this matter further. So, I
said things that were true. . ..
The President's position is they were misleading, but they were true.
No lies, and that is precisely what Mr. Ruff told the Judiciary
Committee, and that is the position that White House counsel takes
before this body.
Remember, the grand jury was conducting a criminal investigation.
They were seeking evidence of possible perjury and obstruction of
justice, and the White House contends before this body that the
President did nothing to obstruct their investigation. The evidence
shows that he did. One of those witnesses who will demonstrate that to
this body is the President's own aide, Sidney Blumenthal. That is why
we request this body to allow Mr. Blumenthal to be deposed, and,
further, we hope that you will allow him the opportunity to testify
before you so that you can gauge his credibility and his demeanor as he
presents the answers that we expect he will give.
Mr. Blumenthal's testimony puts him in direct conflict with the
claims of the President and shatters the myth of the President's
truthful but misleading answers given under oath.
Just for a quick way of background, Mr. Blumenthal, on January 21,
1998, was an assistant to the President. That was the day the Monica
Lewinsky story broke in the national press through the Washington Post.
That story broke in the morning.
Later the same day, Mr. Blumenthal met both with the First Lady and
then with the President to discuss these news revelations. One month
later, Mr. Blumenthal was called to testify before the grand jury. His
testimony was not particularly helpful during that time because,
through most of the questioning that involved conversations that he had
at the White House, Mr. Blumenthal claimed executive privilege.
That issue was apparently litigated, and then he returned in June to
testify before the grand jury twice, on June 4 and on June 25, 1998.
When Mr. Blumenthal was free to share his recollections of the
events, this is how Mr. Blumenthal characterized his meetings with
President and Mrs. Clinton before the grand jury. It is interesting to
note, by the way, that there was a dual lie going on here from the
President. The President was lying to his wife, who could never be
called as a witness against him, but he was also lying to his aides
whom he admitted could be called.
This is from Mr. Blumenthal's testimony on June 4.
The First Lady said that she was distressed that the
President was being attacked, in
[[Page S1001]]
her view, for political motives, for his ministry of a
troubled person. She said that the President ministers to
troubled people all the time. . .and he does so out of
religious conviction and personal temperament.
* * * * *
And the First Lady said he had done this dozens if not
hundreds of times with people, the President came from a
broken home and this was very hard to prevent him from trying
to minister to these troubled people.
So I related that conversation to the President. . .. And I
said to him that I understand that you. . .want to minister
to troubled people, that you feel compassionate, but that
part of the problem with troubled people is that they're. .
.troubled. . ..
I said, ``However, you're President and these troubled
people can just get you in incredible messes. . .you have to
cut yourself off from them.''
And he said, [meaning the President, he said,] ``It's very
difficult for me to do that, given how I am. I want to help
people.''
Then Mr. Blumenthal testified that the President said Dick Morris
suggested that the President go on television and admit in a national
address whatever he may have done wrong.
Once again Mr. Blumenthal testified:
And I said to the President, ``What have you done wrong?''
And he said, ``Nothing. I haven't done anything wrong.''
[And] I said, ``Well, then, that's one of the stupidest ideas
I've ever heard. Why would you do that if you've done nothing
wrong?''
And it was at that point that he gave his account of what
happened to me and he said that Monica--and it came very
fast. He said, ``Monica Lewinsky came at me and made a sexual
demand on me.'' He rebuffed her. He said, ``I've gone down
that road before, I've caused pain for a lot of people and
I'm not going to do that again.''
She threatened him. She said that she would tell people
they'd had an affair, that she was known as the stalker among
her peers, and that she hated it and if she had an affair or
said she had an affair then she wouldn't be the stalker
anymore.
And I repeated to the President that he really needed never
to be near people who were troubled like this, that it was
just--he needed not to be near troubled people like this. And
I said, ``You need to find some sure footing here, some solid
ground.''
And he said, ``I feel like a character in a novel. I feel
like somebody who is surrounded by an oppressive force that
is creating a lie about me and I can't get the truth out. I
feel like the character in the novel Darkness at Noon.''
And I said to him, I said, ``When this happened with Monica
Lewinsky, were you alone?'' He said, ``Well, I was within
eyesight or earshot of someone.''
I said, ``You know, there are press reports that you made
phone calls to her and that there's voice mail. Did you make
phone calls to her?"
He said that he remembered calling her when Betty Currie's
brother died and that he left a message on her voice machine
that Betty's brother had died and he said she was close to
Betty and had been very kind to Betty. And that's what he
recalled.
And then in his June 24 deposition, Mr. Blumenthal expanded on this
thinking. He was asked the question:
In your conversation with the President when he stated that Monica
Lewinsky threatened to disclose an affair, or fabricate an affair in a
public disclosure, did you understand him to be saying that if the
President didn't concede or didn't agree to have some [type] of sexual
contact with her, that she would report an affair?
Answer: My understanding was that she demanded to have
sexual relations. He rejected her. And she said that--this is
--I recall him saying--that, ``They called me the Stalker.''
That's what Lewinsky said. ``And if I can say we had an
affair, then they won't call me that,'' something like that.
Question: Now, you previously characterized Ms. Lewinsky's
comments to the President as a threat, if you will?
Answer: Right, yeah, I would interpret--that's my
understanding.
Then Mr. Blumenthal told the grand jury about the impact the
President's emphatic denials had upon his state of mind-- the mind of a
potential grand jury witness.
Question: In response to my question how you responded to
the President's story about a threat or discussion about a
threat from Ms. Lewinsky, you mentioned you didn't recall
specifically. Do you recall generally the nature of your
response to the President?
Answer by Mr. Blumenthal:
It was generally sympathetic to the President. And I
certainly believed his story. It was a very heartfelt story,
he was pouring out his heart, and I believed him.
* * * * *
Question: Did the President explain to you what Monica
Lewinsky's trouble was that he was helping?
Answer: No.
Question: And you never asked him?
Answer: No.
Question: Did anyone else, including the First Lady, tell
you what Monica Lewinsky's trouble was that the President was
ministering about?
Answer: No.
* * * * *
Question: What did you understand the President to mean by,
he had done nothing wrong?
Answer: My understanding was that the accusation against
him, which appeared in the press that day, was false, that he
had not done anything wrong.
Question: That he had not had any sort of sexual
relationship?
Answer: He had not had a sexual relationship with her and
had not sought to obstruct justice or suborn perjury.
Mr. Blumenthal then went on to say he then asked the President about
some of these reports that there were phone calls between him and
Monica Lewinsky.
Question: Did the President say anything to you about
telephone calls with Monica Lewinsky?
Answer: As I testified, I had said to him that there were
reports that his voice was on her voice mail, her tape
machine at home to take message--message machine. And he
said to me that he could recall that after Betty's brother
died he may have called Monica because Monica had been
very close to Betty. And Betty didn't have a way of
relating to her that her brother had died, so that he had
called and left a message that Betty's brother died.
Question: Did he suggest to you that that was the only call
he had ever made to Monica Lewinsky?
Answer: That's the only one he told me about.
Question: Did you ask him if there were any more calls than
that?
Answer: He said that's the only one he could remember.
Well, we now know certainly from White House logs that ``the only one
the President remembered'' isn't quite true, that in fact I believe it
was over 50 telephone conversations between the President and Monica
Lewinsky. And it begs the question: Why was the President, on the day
this story broke, pulling his aides in to relay information that the
President knew was patently false when he knew that they were potential
witnesses before the grand jury?
Now, it is important to remember that this testimony from Mr.
Blumenthal was given 1 month before Monica Lewinsky decided to opt to
cooperate with the Office of Independent Counsel. Thus, these questions
were asked of him in a vacuum without the benefit of Ms. Lewinsky's
extensive testimony, as well as the President's own grand jury
testimony. And the House managers agree that these and other areas need
to be more fully explored with the gentleman under oath in light of the
later revelations that occurred surrounding this case.
Now, we know a couple of things. We know that the Monica Lewinsky
story broke on January 21. We know that the President spoke to Sidney
Blumenthal the very same day. We know that the President said he knew
his aides could be potential witnesses before the grand jury. And we
also know that Mr. Blumenthal was called three times before the grand
jury--once in February, twice in June.
There is an important question that was never asked Mr. Blumenthal
during his testimony. It could not have been asked because at the time
he testified, the revelation that the President shared with America in
August and Monica Lewinsky's revelation had not yet been aired. If the
President knew that Mr. Blumenthal was going to be a witness, a
potential witness before the grand jury, if 6 months after this story
broke the President presumably knew that his aide had gone down, not
once but twice, to the grand jury, I would like to know from Mr.
Blumenthal: Did the President ever come up to you and say something to
you? Did he ever say to you: Do you remember that story I told you back
in January? Well, now that you're actually going to be a witness, I
know that you're going down to testify before the grand jury, I don't
want you to give the grand jury a false impression. I don't want you to
give false information to the grand jury. I don't want you to be a cog
in the wheel of an obstruction of giving the grand jury the opportunity
to hear the truth. I need to recant for you what I told you.
There is no evidence of that. And we would like to find that out. And
the only way we can do that is by deposing Mr. Blumenthal and hopefully
bringing him in and sharing that information with this body.
Another area we would like to inquire about is the area of a
potential plan to destroy Monica Lewinsky if she
[[Page S1002]]
ever decided to cooperate with law enforcement authorities. Mr.
Blumenthal told the grand jury that, following the Monica Lewinsky news
revelations, White House aides held twice-a-day staff briefings, at
8:30 in the morning and at 6:45 in the evening, every day to discuss,
among other topics, the media impact of the Lewinsky scandal and how to
deal with it in the press.
Mr. Blumenthal testified that the primary purpose of these meetings
was to discuss press strategy.
In making his presentation to the Judiciary Committee last month,
chief investigative counsel, David Schippers, related some of the
quotes that emanated in the press following the Lewinsky story. I want
to read a few paragraphs from Mr. Schippers' presentation:
Worst of all, in order to win, it was necessary to convince
the public, and hopefully, those grand jurors who read the
newspapers, that Monica Lewinsky was unworthy of belief. If
the account given by Monica to Linda Tripp was believed, then
there would be a tawdry affair in and near the oval office.
Moreover, the President's own perjury and that of Monica
Lewinsky would surface. How do you do this? Congressman
Graham showed you. You employ the full power and credibility
of the White House and the press corps of the White House to
destroy the witness.
Mr. Schippers then quoted from several news sources. Now, this is
just a few days after the President told Mr. Blumenthal that Monica was
known as ``the stalker.''
Inside the White House, the debate goes on about the best
way to destroy ``that woman'' as President Clinton called
Monica Lewinsky. Should they paint her as a friendly
fanaticist or as a malicious stalker?
Again, January 30th:
It's always very easy to take a mirror's eye view of this
thing, look at this thing from a completely different
direction and take the same evidence and posit a totally
innocent relationship in which the President was a victim of
someone, rather like the woman who followed David Letterman
around.
From another source, ``One White House aide called reporters. . .''
One White House aide called reporters to offer information
about Monica Lewinsky's past, her weight problem, and what
the aide said was her nickname ``the stalker.''
Just hours after the story broke, one White House source made
unsolicited calls offering that Lewinsky was the troubled product of
divorced parents.
And the reference goes on and on. You can find the complete reference
in the committee report.
Now the question is, Was this a mere coincidence that the President's
false statements to Mr. Blumenthal about Monica Lewinsky being a
``stalker'' quickly found their way into press accounts, even though
those accounts are attributed by the press to sources inside the White
House? The answer to the question is, yes, it is a coincidence,
according to White House counsel. And we heard that from them just 3
days ago. Mr. Ruff said in his presentation, and I am quoting:
The White House, the President, the President's agents, the
President's spokespersons, no one has ever trashed,
threatened, maligned, or done anything else to Monica
Lewinsky. No one.
Mr. Blumenthal needs to be questioned now under the light of the
facts as we now know them. All we have from Mr. Blumenthal are the
facts as he testified before the revelations saw the light of day, and
he needs to be questioned for the benefit of those who must make a
determination of credibility and the determination of guilt or
innocence. This is the reason we have included Mr. Blumenthal on our
proposed list. He is just one example of several aides whose testimony
is already before you in the record. But we feel it would be
beneficial not only for the body to hear him, but certainly to question
him in light of the revelations that occurred following his grand jury
testimony.
Mr. Chief Justice, with that, we reserve the balance of our time.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. Very well, the Chair recognizes Mr. Counsel
Kendall for the White House.
Mr. Counsel KENDALL. Mr. Chief Justice, ladies and gentleman of the
Senate, House managers, the purpose of the managers' motion and what I
am going to address, is whether you need to add any evidence to the
record before you. And that is all I am going to address. Now, I am
tempted--it is like waving a red flag at the bull to take on the
substantive arguments that have been presented here as to why the
President is guilty. I am going to refrain from doing that, but my
refraining from doing that is not because I agree with them, but that
we have already addressed them. I think here that the proper procedure
is just address the need for new evidence to add to the record before
you.
The managers' case is in no way--no way--harmed by being unable to
call witnesses at this point. The independent counsel conducted a wide-
ranging investigation. It was intense. It was comprehensive of every
conceivable allegation against the President after the Lewinsky
publicity erupted on January 21, 1998. In the record of publicly
available materials, which the Senate has asked the House managers to
certify, the actual number of pages is somewhat understated, because as
I mentioned before, frequently four or five pages of transcript are
reproduced on a single page of the bound. But, in fact, there are over
10,000 pages of grand jury testimony, over 800 pages of other testimony
such as depositions, 3,400 pages of documentary evidence, 1,800 pages
of audio transcripts, and 800-some pages of FBI interviews.
The Office of Independent Counsel has an unlimited budget with
unlimited investigative resources, ranging from the FBI to private
investigators. Its agents interviewed people all over the country, used
several different grand juries, conducted hundreds of interviews, even
called people back from abroad. If the OIC could have turned up
anything that was negative or prejudicial, it would be in those
volumes. You can rest assured that they did their best to find that
evidence.
And the Starr team has been fully supportive of the pro impeachment
forces in the House of Representatives; indeed, so supportive that the
independent counsel's ethics advisory professor, Sam Dash, resigned to
protest Mr. Starr's zealous advocacy of the impeachment of the
President.
Just this week, Mr. Starr and his staff have aggressively continued
to support the House managers during these Senate proceedings. Some
commentators have commented that the independent counsel is, perhaps,
the honorary 14th House manager.
Now, I rehash this all not to cast aspersions at Mr. Starr, but to
remind the Senate that after 5 years and $50 million President Clinton
may be the most investigated person in America. I would certainly say
this for Mr. Starr: He is thorough. He is thorough. After all the work
that has been done for them by the independent counsel, there is simply
no way that the House managers are prejudiced by not being able to add
to this record at this point.
Now, Mr. Manager McCollum repeated this morning that we are afraid of
witnesses. We are not. We have reviewed in detail in our presentations
what the evidence shows about both the perjury and the obstruction of
justice allegation. We are not at all afraid of what the witnesses
would say. Indeed, we know what they are going to say because it is all
right there in the volumes before you. We think that you have
everything there on the basis in which you can make a fair judgment and
achieve a fair resolution. The managers' hope to call more witnesses is
simply a product of their desire, their hope, their prayer, that
something will come to rescue their case.
Let's be clear about one thing: Any delay in the process necessary
for us to have fair discovery is on their heads. Our point here is that
there is simply no need to go outside this record, because what you
have before you is voluminous, and it is a completely adequate basis
for your decision.
As I pointed out the other day in the questioning period, the only
thing left out of this record is evidence that might be exculpatory or
helpful to the President. And if we must, we will as conscientious
lawyers, seek out that helpful additional evidence through discovery.
This body has been scrupulously fair in these proceedings, and I am
confident it will be fair concerning our need for discovery if the
``genie'' of discovery is let out of the bottle and live witnesses are
deemed to be appropriate. Then we are going to need a fair period of
time for our own discovery.
But, again, the point today on this motion is that the managers have
simply identified no particular need for witnesses, no specific areas
of testimony that might contribute to what is already in the record
and, indeed, no
[[Page S1003]]
material questions--you can always think of questions that were
unasked--but no material questions, given the allegation in the two
articles that are not in the record before you.
Just recall, in the House the managers believed that this was an
adequate record to come to you and urge removal of the President. They
rested on that record in the House, and they impeached an elected
President on the basis of that record. They cannot now complain that it
is, for some reason, unfair to submit this same record to you for
judgment at this point. We are not afraid of or reluctant to call
witnesses, but we think that at the end of the day, the addition of
more testimony from the three witnesses you have heard about won't
affect any evidentiary judgment you have to make.
Mr. Manager Barr declared during his presentation a week ago Friday,
on January 15, that this was in fact a relatively simple case, although
we, the White House lawyers, would try to nitpick the evidence. He told
you that what we have before us, Senators and Mr. Chief Justice, is
really not complex--critically important, yes, but not essentially
complex. The able House managers have kept insisting on their need for
witnesses, but they haven't indicated what substantial, material, and
relevant questions the witnesses would be asked, which haven't already
been asked, or why such questions are essential or even relevant to the
resolution of this proceeding.
Frankly, I think this is because there just aren't that many more
questions to ask of these witnesses. Mr. Manager McCollum kind of let
the cat out of the bag on this one when, a week ago Friday, he told
you, ``I don't know what the witnesses will say, but I assume if they
are consistent, they will say the same thing that's in here.''
I was surprised at some of the statements the managers made during
the questioning period on Friday and Saturday. Mr. Bryant said, ``We
would very much like to talk to some of these witnesses.'' And he
added, ``It is very critical that you talk to the witness before having
that witness testify.'' Mr. Manager McCollum stated, ``As a matter of
fact, we think we would have been incompetent and derelict as
presenters of the evidence if we hadn't talked to them first.'' Just
this Sunday Mr. Manager Hyde, on ``Meet the Press,'' observed that the
purpose of the court-ordered Office of Independent Counsel's chaperoned
interview of Ms. Lewinsky last Sunday was to get a sense of what kind
of a witness she would make.
I say this respectfully, but I am duty-bound to observe that it is,
in fact, a dereliction of duty to have come this far in the process, to
have made this serious set of charges as have been made against the
President to seek his removal, and not to have talked to the witnesses
on whom they purport to rely. How can they have come this far and now
tell you: Oh, yes, we now need to meet face to face with the witnesses?
We don't know what they sound like, how credible they will be, but we
have rested our judgment on this. We need to see them personally.
This procedure, I submit to you, is just backward. First, they filed
the charges, which have been spoon fed by Mr. Starr. They don't bother
to check these out; they take them at face value, and now they finally
want to talk to the witnesses, and they again use Mr. Starr to threaten
Ms. Lewinsky with imprisonment unless she cooperates with them.
Now, it is no answer to say that the witnesses didn't want to talk to
us. There was a way to talk to them in the House of Representatives,
and that was through the subpoena power that the House could have used
if they had wanted to talk to their witnesses, if they had fulfilled
the obligation they had before they proffered these charges to you.
This has been a partisan process on the part of the House managers.
In the House, they had the votes. They didn't think they needed to talk
to witnesses. When you have the votes and the independent counsel on
your side, you don't need to independently develop the evidence.
Indeed, Sunday, on CNN, Mr. Manager Cannon provided some insight----
Mr. HUTCHINSON addressed the Chair.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Senator from Arkansas.
Mr. HUTCHINSON. I object to White House counsel's continual reference
to comments made on television programs which are outside the record
before the Senate.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. This is on a motion to call additional witnesses,
and the argument has been very free form and kind of far reaching. I
think this is a permissible comment, so I overrule the objection.
Mr. Counsel KENDALL. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. I think Mr.
Manager Cannon's comments did provide some insight into the need for
witnesses or the justification for witnesses here. He noted that the
Republicans had lost five seats in the November election, and he went
on to say that, accordingly, the Republicans felt a need to speedily
complete impeachment in the lame duck session before the 106th began
its session. He said, ``Republicans on the Judiciary Committee were
committed to being done by the time we got done,'' and that is where we
got on that track with no witnesses.
Now, they are trying to take a different track, and I think it comes
from desperation. You have had the case analyzed before you; you have
had the evidence in the case assessed. I think it has been demolished
in an adversary proceeding.
The House managers are like the character in David Copperfield, Mr.
Micawber, who was always hoping that something would turn up. They
continue to hope that something will turn up for them. They don't know
what it is, but they believe they will know it when they see it and
they hope if, for the first time in these proceedings, they actually
talk to the witnesses on whom they have relied, they will find
something to persuade you to overcome the evidence in the record.
Now the managers have said, ``Well, we told the White House that they
could have called witnesses in the House if they wanted to, and they
chose not to do so, so it is really their fault.'' I respectfully
submit to you that only in the world of Franz Kafka do you have to
present evidence of your own innocence before you even hear the charges
or the allegations against you.
It was the burden of the House to establish, by an adequate
evidentiary basis, a case for impeaching the President. They failed to
do that, I respectfully submit. They are a little like a blackjack
player who sees 20 on the table and has 19 and is going to try to draw
that 2, hoping against the odds. Here they are simply gambling. And
gambling may have its place as a recreation, but I don't think it has a
place in this impeachment trial when the fate of the President is at
stake.
Now, I don't want to be uncharitable to the House managers--and they
are able--but I think it is perhaps appropriate to remind you, as my
partner Ms. Seligman did in her argument yesterday, that in their own
Chamber the House managers sang a very different song about the need
for witnesses. And to be fair, this was not just one manager; they sang
as kind of a barbershop chorus. Most of them are on the record to this
effect, and I think the very best witnesses you have about the need for
witnesses are the House managers themselves.
Let's listen to some of the comments of the managers on whether live
witnesses needed to be heard to supplement the evidence in the many
volumes already gathered by the independent counsel.
For example, on November 5, Mr. Manager Hyde said:
We believe the most relevant witnesses have already
testified at length about the matters in issue, and in the
interest of finishing our expeditious inquiry we will not
require most of them to come before us to repeat their
testimony.
He added that, ``[Monica Lewinsky and Linda Tripp] have already
testified under oath. We have their testimony. We don't need to
reinvent the wheel.''
The very next day, on November 6, Mr. Manager Gekas stated:
Bringing in witnesses to rehash testimony that's already
concretely in the record would be a waste of time and serve
no purpose at all.
On December 1, during a hearing before the House Judiciary Committee
to which the committee received testimony concerning the consequences
of perjury and related crime, Mr. Manager Chabot stated:
We could call more and more and more witnesses. We are
trying to get this wrapped up
[[Page S1004]]
as expeditiously as possible. I think both sides want to do
that. If we call more witnesses and drag this on into next
year, then they are going to scream because they say we are
on a fishing expedition, we have already got enough evidence.
At that same period, Mr. Manager Canady said, of the need for
witnesses:
Now, we do have a responsibility to make certain that we
act on a solid basis. We should not move forward with
articles of impeachment on the basis of insubstantial
evidence. I think all of us agree on that. The fact of the
matter is that we have a mountain of sworn testimony. . . .
On December 9, Congressman Coble, who was a member of the House
Judiciary Committee, told us during our presentation on behalf of the
White House:
Mr. Ruff, I want to address a couple of myths and one myth
is that we have no evidence because there have been no fact
witnesses called . . .
Five volumes sit alongside me. These are the same five volumes that
are at our table that contain sworn testimony before a criminal grand
jury, FBI interviews, depositions and other materials.
Mr. Manager Hyde made two statements on the floor of the House of
Representatives during the debate over the articles of impeachment
which I think bear quotation here.
On December 18, Mr. Manager Hyde stated:
We had the facts, and we had them under oath. We had Ms.
Lewinsky's heavily corroborated testimony under a grant of
immunity that would be revoked if she lied; we accepted that
. . . .
And then the next day, on Saturday, December 19, Mr. Manager Hyde
stated:
No fact witnesses, I have heard that repeated again and
again. Look, we had 60,000 pages of testimony from the grand
jury, from depositions, from statements under oath. That is
testimony that we can believe and accept. We chose to believe
it and accept it. Why reinterview Betty Currie to take
another statement when we already have her statement? Why
interview Monica Lewinsky when we had her statement under
oath, and with a grant of immunity that if she lied, she
would forfeit?
``Why interview Monica Lewinsky when we had her statement under oath,
and with a grant of immunity that if she lied, she would forfeit.''
After the House voted its two articles of impeachment, the House
managers still sought no need for live witnesses. On December 29, Mr.
Manager Gekas stated:
We are going to make the case that there is already enough
testimony under oath, in one grand jury testimony and
affidavits.
Then again, a week later, Mr. Manager Gekas stated:
In my judgment, there might not be any real rationale for
calling Linda Tripp or Betty Currie or Vernon Jordan if the
testimony of Monica Lewinsky is accepted as being what she
offered on grand jury terms.
Rollcall reported on January 7 that Mr. Manager Cannon stated,
regarding calling Ms. Currie as a witness in the Senate trial:
I am reluctant to call [Ms. Currie] because it's a rotten,
nasty thing to do to a public servant.
When confronted with this inconsistency, the managers, who are
talented attorneys and successful Congressmen, have all argued, ``Oh,
well. The forum has changed,'' as if it is no big deal for the House to
impeach a President without witnesses. But it would be unconscionable
for the Senate to acquit the President without first doing the
``rotten, nasty thing''--Mr. Manager Cannon's phrase--to some
witnesses. How can you have a trial, they protest, without witnesses?
One might ask, How can you have a hearing without witnesses? But the
House did. How can you impeach a President without witnesses? The House
showed you.
Finally, it is instructive to note that when the managers were
presenting their case in the House in the Judiciary Committee, they did
not declare that they would insist on witnesses when they got to the
Senate. They did not tell their colleagues, We will not need witnesses
in the House because we will have them in the Senate. No. They rushed
this through the House because they had the votes and now they want to
delay in the Senate because they are afraid they don't have the votes.
There is no reason, we respectfully submit, to delay this Chamber, to
drag out these proceedings and defer doing the business of the American
people.
I would like to discuss each of the five categories. I will call them
categories. There are three witnesses. Then there are the two
affidavits, and then there are the telephone records. There are really
six. I would like to discuss these in terms of whether they add
anything, or whether the managers have made a proffer that they add
anything to the record which is now before you, because I think that is
the question you have to determine.
On this motion, you are not voting whether substantively to convict
the President. You are simply determining, Is the record adequate?
Let's first take Ms. Lewinsky. On Sunday the House managers, with the
gentle assistance of the independent counsel prosecutors, were able to
interview Ms. Lewinsky after schlepping her across the country from
California. They did so despite the fact that the Senate had
established by a 100-to-0 vote a procedure for the orderly calling of
witnesses after discussion and debate. They did so after declining to
interview Ms. Lewinsky at any time during the House proceedings when
they could have compelled her appearance by the House subpoena power.
And they did so without providing us here with any reliable record for
what that ``talk-fest'' on Sunday may have produced.
Newspaper reports indicate that the managers did not take notes. You
will recall, of course, that during the questioning period on Saturday
they explicitly rejected a request they received during the question
period that they provide either an unedited transcript or a videotape
of that interview to be sure that the interview would be open to
scrutiny for fairness, and ascertain whether Ms. Lewinsky in that
interview really did add anything to the record. They declined to do
that. But when they emerged from the Mayflower Hotel on Sunday, after
meeting for their sidewalk press conference, we heard some general
statements generally commending Ms. Lewinsky. Mr. Manager Bryant called
her ``an impressive person.'' Mr. Manager Hutchinson praised her
``intelligence and poise.''
I thought to myself, where have we heard that before about Ms.
Lewinsky? It was deja vu all over again. Of course, we heard from Mr.
Jordan, from Ambassador Richardson, and from the people who interviewed
Ms. Lewinsky for a job in New York. It is helpful that the House
managers have now at least confirmed those observations in the record.
At their press conference we heard the managers make some abstract
pronouncements about what Ms. Lewinsky was going to add--she would be a
valuable witness; she would be a helpful witness; and it was a
productive meeting and a benefit to our case.
That is what we heard. But Ms. Lewinsky's lawyer, Mr. Plato Cacheris
threw, if I might say, some cold water on those happy and optimistic
pronouncements. It could not have been clearer in his comments that,
not surprisingly, nothing new whatsoever had emerged from that session.
You really didn't hear that. I think the House managers were quite
honest about the session, because you heard nothing about what had
emerged from that today.
Mr. Cacheris told the press conference--some of you may have seen it:
Ms. Lewinsky answered all their questions; there was nothing new; she
added nothing to the record that is already sitting before the Senate.
She shouldn't be called to the Senate to testify.
The New York Times reported yesterday that after the interview, Ms.
Lewinsky told a friend: It went really well; I feel positive about it,
but I didn't have anything new to say.
Now, according to the Washington Post, the managers were focused on
making sure Ms. Lewinsky had no intention of changing her testimony.
The Washington Post went on to confirm that she did not indicate any
desire to change her testimony in any way. And the Post article
continues that, in fact, Lewinsky reaffirmed her grand jury statement
that no one ever asked her to lie or offered her a job in exchange for
a false affidavit in the Jones case.
Now, as you are well aware, Ms. Lewinsky was interviewed extensively
by the Office of Independent Counsel. She testified twice before the
grand jury. She gave a lengthy deposition to the prosecutors. She was
extensively interviewed by the agents. There are over 20 interview
reports.
[[Page S1005]]
I should also add that a great deal of this comes after the President
was examined in the grand jury on August 17. Ms. Lewinsky has given
detailed and explicit testimony, particularly in her August 26
deposition, as to her account of the physical relationship she had with
the President. Nothing at all would be added by further interrogation
of her. Nothing could be gained by repetition in a Senate deposition or
in the well of this body by a repetition of that testimony.
I confess I don't fully understand--I seem to hear Mr. Manager Bryant
and Mr. Manager McCollum say slightly different things about what they
intended to present in the way of Ms. Lewinsky's testimony. The record
on that is what it is. But whenever I hear somebody tell me, as the
very able Mr. Manager Bryant did, they don't need to cross-examine,
really, I am reminded of what Senator Bumpers said, and he got it from
H.L. Mencken, who probably got it from somebody else: The more they say
they don't have to cross-examine, the more need I feel to cross-
examine.
I don't know what they intended to do there, but in the grand jury
the President plainly acknowledged an improper relationship with Ms.
Lewinsky. He declined to answer further key questions about that. The
Office of Independent Counsel did not seek either to compel him or it
didn't seek to issue a new grand jury subpoena which would cause the
President to come back and go through those explicit details.
The testimony is what it is, and I don't think anything further from
Ms. Lewinsky is going to in any material way affect it or even add to
it.
With regard to some of the conflicts that are there, I think we have
addressed those in the question period. I am not going to go over them
again in full. Did the improper relationship begin in November? Did it
begin 6 or 7 weeks later? That conflict is utterly immaterial, I
respectfully submit, in view of what the parties have acknowledged. Mr.
Manager Hyde, indeed, stated in a House Judiciary Committee hearing on
December 1 that that particular point did not strike him as a terribly
serious count, and I agree with that.
The managers have claimed, Mr. Manager Hutchinson claimed this
morning, that there is a contradiction in the President, in the
testimony of the President and Ms. Lewinsky with regard to cover
stories. This is not true. We have gone over that again and again.
There is nothing that links this testimony to any deposition in the
Jones case. These were discussed, the record shows, in a nonlegal
context.
I don't think there is anything further to be gained from Ms.
Lewinsky's testimony that is not already there in the record.
Now, Mr. Vernon Jordan, let's take him. Mr. Manager Hutchinson was
kind enough to leave up here his copies of Mr. Vernon Jordan's five
appearances before the grand jury. He held them up on a chart. I think
it is proper to point out that Mr. Jordan's testimony runs over 900
pages. On March 3, the transcript is 196 pages; 2 days later, on March
5, with the transcript running to 212 pages, Mr. Jordan emerged from
the grand jury, and he made the following statement which I would like
to play for you:
(Text of videotape presentation:)
First of all it is a fact that I helped Monica Lewinsky
find private employment in New York. Secondly, it is a fact
that I took Monica Lewinsky to a very competent lawyer, Frank
Carter, here in Washington, D.C. And thirdly, it is a fact
that I kept the President of the United States informed about
my activities. I want to say two further things. One is I did
not in any way tell her, encourage her, to lie. And secondly
that my efforts to find her a job were not a quid pro quo for
the affidavit that she signed.
Mr. Jordan testified a third time before the grand jury on May 5, and
that transcript runs to 285 pages. Finally, he testified two more
times, on May 28, for 128 pages, and he observed as he exited the grand
jury room, if we could have the videotape again:
(Text of videotape presentation:)
For the fourth time I have answered every question over and
over and over again. I suspect, however that I will have to
answer the same questions over and over and over again.
And guess what. Mr. Jordan was clairvoyant because he was called back
to the grand jury for a fifth time on June 9. He said as he exited:
(Text of videotape presentation:)
When I came here in March, early March, I said that I
helped Ms. Lewinsky get a lawyer. I helped her get a job. I
had assurances that there was no sexual relationship and I
did not tell her to lie. That was the truth then. And that is
the truth today. And I've testified five times, over and over
again to those truths.
One of the justifications Mr. Manager Hutchinson offered for calling
Mr. Jordan was to explore an alleged conflict between Mr. Jordan and
Ms. Lewinsky over whether Mr. Jordan had told her to go home and make
sure that notes she had been keeping were not there. Here, I think Mr.
Manager Hutchinson is referencing a statement that Ms. Lewinsky made in
her proffer to the Office of Independent Counsel describing her
recollection of a breakfast she believed she had with Mr. Jordan. It is
in the appendix volume at page 716.
Now, the thing to note, ladies and gentlemen, about this statement is
its date. Ms. Lewinsky said this on February 1, 1998. She had written
then that she expressed concern about Ms. Tripp to Mr. Jordan and that
Ms. Tripp may have seen notes when she was in Ms. Lewinsky's house.
According to the offer, ``Mr. Jordan asked if the notes were from the
President. Ms. Lewinsky said that they were notes to the President. Mr.
Jordan suggested to Ms. Lewinsky,'' the proffer says, ``that she check
to make sure they were not there, or something to that effect,'' from
Ms. Lewinsky.
Now, contrary to this supposed conflict, Mr. Jordan was never asked
in the grand jury on any of the five occasions he was there--all of
which, I remind you, were after this February 1 proffer about this
matter. He wasn't asked about it. It doesn't concern the President, in
any event. And I think, most importantly, it is nowhere alleged, if you
look in the actual articles--if you look at article II, nowhere is this
conversation alleged in any way as a basis for impeachment, a basis for
charging the President with obstruction. I think in fact it is a
gratuitous smear of Mr. Jordan. And it certainly does not provide a
basis for extending this proceeding to ask him questions about it.
Now, Mr. Manager Hutchinson also claims that there is a conflict
between the testimony of Ms. Lewinsky and Mr. Jordan on the issue of
whether they discussed specific changes that were subsequently made in
her affidavit. He said to you that he thought that was a basis for
calling them as witnesses. However, the record is clear, it could not
be clearer, that the idea of certain deletions in the affidavit came
from Ms. Lewinsky's lawyer, Mr. Frank Carter.
As I mentioned in my presentation on Thursday, Ms. Lewinsky discussed
that she had talked to Mr. Jordan about some affidavit changes and he
told her: Go talk to your lawyer.
In any event, Ms. Lewinsky's lawyer, Mr. Frank Carter, testified
unequivocally to the grand jury: I don't recall Vernon ever asking me
the substance of what Monica told me or tried to talk about the
substance of what Monica told me. He clearly never told me how I should
proceed or what I should do.
Mr. Carter further testified that paragraph 6 of the affidavit in its
draft form, the last part of the sentence, ``has certain words about
the private meeting.''
That paragraph, Mr. Carter--Ms. Lewinsky's lawyer--testified, was
modified when we sat down in my office on January 7. He further
testified that it was his idea before that meeting to take it out
because he didn't want to give Ms. Jones' lawyers any hint of a one-on-
one meeting.
There is simply no basis to call Mr. Vernon Jordan once again to have
him go through the things he has testified about a great many times
already.
Now we come to Sidney Blumenthal. Mr. Manager Rogan very ably argued
that there was a need to call Mr. Blumenthal because of Mr.
Blumenthal's testimony as to what the President had told him, Sidney
Blumenthal, in the aftermath of the explosion of publicity over the
Lewinsky matter in January a year ago.
First of all, there is no conflict here that is material because the
President has never disputed Mr. Blumenthal or his aide's accounts of
this conversation. Any dispute is wholly immaterial as to the two
counts--the two articles of impeachment. The President was examined
extensively about this subject
[[Page S1006]]
in his own grand jury testimony and he testified as to what he tried to
say. But he also added that in this period things were a ``blur,'' is a
term he used one time; ``a blizzard'' was a term he used another time--
that he had discussions with a number of his aides, including Mr.
Blumenthal, he tried to be careful in what he said, he thought he was
technically accurate, but he would not dispute and did not dispute
their characterizations of what they recalled of the conversations with
him.
Again, Mr. Blumenthal--Mr. Rogan pointed this out--testified three
times before the grand jury. His recollection of his conversations with
the President has been analyzed in detail and a further round of
deposition would add nothing of substance to that testimony. Indeed,
the President's speech to the Nation the day of his grand jury
testimony, when he spoke to the Nation on the evening of August 17,
also represented an acknowledgment by the President that he had misled
his aides, such as Sidney Blumenthal.
As I indicated last Thursday, however, any statements to the White
House staff could have had no impact whatsoever on the Paula Jones
case, as article II alleges each of the seven grounds has, because Mr.
Blumenthal had no firsthand knowledge of the President's relation with
Ms. Lewinsky. He could only report to the grand jury what the President
had told him, however misleading those statements of the President may
have been at the time. There is no dispute here, there is no material
reason to call Mr. Blumenthal, except to try to embarrass the President
by the presentation of testimony from a member of his senior staff.
Now, the next two things that the managers would seek to add to the
record are not, they tell you, live witness testimony. But don't let
that fool you. They want to put in two sworn declarations--like an
affidavit--from two people. One of them is a Mr. Wesley Holmes, a
lawyer for Ms. Paula Jones, and the other is Mr. Barry Ward.
Now, I don't have the pleasure of knowing Mr. Wesley Holmes, but I do
know Mr. Barry Ward. He is a very intelligent, very hard-working and
knowledgeable young lawyer in Little Rock, AR, who works as a law clerk
for Chief Judge Wright. He has got an encyclopedic knowledge of
Razorback athletic lore. He has a lot of fine characteristics. He is
very helpful as a law clerk and gets information to you and back very
efficiently. But there is one thing Mr. Ward is not, and I am sure he
would agree with that, he is not a mind reader. He is not a mind
reader. There were a number of people in the room at the deposition.
None of them were mind readers. They could all give their testimony
about what they thought was going through the President's mind. The
President has addressed that a number of times. You have seen the
videotape.
Now, the second witness is exceedingly interesting, and that is Mr.
Holmes. And Mr. Holmes would give a sworn declaration to, among other
things, say what he had in mind when he issued the witness subpoena to
Betty Currie which was several days--which was days after the
President's conversation with her on December 18.
Well, he would be a very interesting witness to depose, let me tell
you. This is one of Paula Jones' lawyers talking about offering a
declaration about his litigation strategy. And I think the opportunity
to depose him would provide a great deal of information about what
really motivated the events of January 1998. I think we could show that
there were a number of connections between the independent counsel,
Linda Tripp, and the Paula Jones lawyers. But I don't think you need to
get into that briar patch because Mr. Holmes is not a mind reader any
more than Mr. Ward is. You simply don't need that testimony to
illuminate the record.
Now, the last category--let me just, before I leave that, make the
point that while the managers would like very much to throw in a couple
of sworn declarations, you should be assured of our need to take
discovery and, in Mr. Holmes' case, take comprehensive discovery. I
don't think anything in S. Res. 16--I don't know if you have gotten to
this, but I don't read the resolution as authorizing simple hearsay
evidence.
We would need to depose the Paula Jones lawyers in some detail, and I
think they have now waived significant legal protections that would
make that possible.
Finally, there was a category of telephone records. It is a little
hard to address that category. Those are just documents. I don't think
the record need be expanded by their addition, and I will tell you why.
Telephone records, as I said the other day, really tell you nothing,
unless--it is very important to time, to date a particular call. They
really are inscrutable. You have to have the witness testify about what
they mean. I don't see anything in there that would justify opening the
record to add certain telephone records.
Finally, I want to be candid with you. I don't want to be alarmist, I
want to be honest, though, about what opening the door for discovery
will mean for this process. I said before that the Senate had been fair
in these proceedings, and it has been fair. I think the identification
of a specific record which the parties could agree on, have in the
sunlight, talk about, argue about, was the fair thing to do and the
right thing to do. I think if discovery is inevitable, we will
anticipate and believe that you will be fair in allowing us the
discovery we are going to need.
I ask you, if you would, to read our trial memorandum, because at
pages 124 to 130 we have set forth there our need for discovery. It is
not a new invention. Should the Senate decide to authorize the House
managers to call additional witnesses live in this proceeding or have
the depositions taken, we will be faced with a critical need for the
discovery of evidence useful to our defense.
I made the point that the discovery of evidence in the Office of the
Independent Counsel proceeding was--not to put too fine a point on it--
not aimed at getting us exculpatory or helpful evidence. We need to be
able to do that. We have never had the kind of compulsory process, the
kind of ability to subpoena documents and witnesses that you will have
in a garden variety civil case. We have not had access to a great deal,
many thousands of pages of evidence which is, first of all, in the
hands of the House managers that they got from the Office of
Independent Counsel, but did not put into the public record, did not
print up. We also need discovery of those other documents, witness
testimony transcripts, interview notes, other materials, which may be
helpful or exculpatory that are in the hands of the independent
counsel.
Our dilemma is this: We do not know what we do not know. That is what
discovery means. You have to get discovery so you can find out what is
available. It may not necessarily prolong a trial, but it makes you
available to defend your client in the way you have to be able to do as
a lawyer. It doesn't turn on the number of witnesses.
The calling of these witnesses produces a need in us to be ready to
examine them, to cross-examine them. It initiates a process that leaves
us unprepared and exposed unless we have adequate discovery. This is a
proceeding, I need not remind you--I know everyone recognizes its
gravity--to remove the President of the United States. You have to give
us, and I believe you will, the discovery that will enable us to
represent the President adequately, competently and effectively.
The sequence of discovery is also important. I want to be clear about
that. It is all very well and I recognize how it happens for one side
to say, ``Well, we are going to put on three witnesses and they can put
on three witnesses.'' Ladies and gentlemen of the Senate, we don't know
right now how to make a reasoned choice because we haven't had the
discovery you would normally have to do that. We would first need to
obtain and review the relevant documents. I have indicated where those
are. We would then need to be able to depose relevant witnesses. We
need to know whether the witness depositions that the House managers
had taken would need to lead to other depositions there. Only at that
point when we have had discovery of our witnesses will we be able to
identify the witnesses we might want to call.
This is a logical procedure, and I think those of you who have tried
cases will recognize it as such. It is simply impossible from where we
now are to see how a witness designated by the House managers can be
fairly rebutted without ourselves having access to all of the available
evidence.
[[Page S1007]]
Given what is at stake, I think fundamental fairness requires fair
discovery. We will be expeditious, but in the event the genie is out of
the bottle, we need time, we need access to defend the President in the
way any client ought to be defended.
I think the Senate has wisely elected to proceed on a voluminous
record, a record that is available for public scrutiny that was
assembled by people not favorable to the President. I think you have
enough evidence to make your decision on the basis of that record.
But in the event you decide to expand it, affording us adequate
discovery is essential if we are really going to practice the rule of
law as I believe the Senate would intend for that rule of law to be
practiced in its proceedings.
But let me conclude by saying that I don't think, and I respectfully
submit to you, that there is a need to prolong this process. We hope
that you will render your decision in a manner that is speedy, and we
are confident that you will decide to make that decision in a manner
that is fair, and that this body will, as so often it has done in past
times of crisis, be able to bring to the country both the closure and
reconciliation that the country wants so very much. Thank you.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. Does counsel for the President have any more
presentation?
Mr. Counsel KENDALL. If I may, Mr. Chief Justice, I reserve the
remainder of my time.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. No, you can't reserve it. It is open, respond and
rebuttal.
Mr. Counsel KENDALL. I will then quitclaim the rest of my time.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. Very well.
(Laughter.)
Mr. Manager BRYANT. Mr. Chief Justice, may I inquire how much
rebuttal time we have remaining?
The CHIEF JUSTICE. Thirty minutes.
Mr. Manager BRYANT. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. I will be brief and
ask other managers to come up and follow me. I have four quick points
to make.
Before I get into that, I want to thank my distinguished colleague
from DC, Mr. Kendall. Over my practice of law for several years, I have
received a number of jabs before in the courtroom, but never so gentle
and never so eloquently, and I thank you.
I think his presentation was very good, but probably makes the best
illustration of why witnesses are needed in that he has chosen to use
selective quotes. He likes to use those quotes and point to the
managers over there where we were quoted without a real context and
certainly that is what this hearing has been about so far, both sides
picking and choosing among quotes that best illustrate the point we
want to make at the time.
Really, what we need is the big picture, the entire, complete picture
that witnesses and only witnesses can provide in this case.
Let me go back to a couple of the selective quotes, and that is the
quotes that we made back in the House when we were involved in the
proceedings, which I would remind each one of you involved these very
same stacks of books here, the record, that they have shown you in the
past in a very, I guess very often form, that this is the record here;
why do we need to go outside the record? That very same record was
there in the House, and it was at that time Mr. Lowell, the minority
counsel, was representing the President's interests, but also Mr.
Kendall was there. In fact, both together examined Mr. Starr. That was
when they were making the request for the witnesses, based on this very
same record. Notwithstanding that, we need witnesses. I simply point
that out to you to show you that Mr. Kendall and his very talented
staff do not have a monopoly on consistency.
Another example of selective quoting has to do with quotes made about
our occasion to visit Ms. Lewinsky, to talk to her. This was the one
witness we have not been able to talk to. He pulled those quotes out as
if we need to talk to all the witnesses. We don't need to talk to all
the witnesses, but we just need to sit down and talk with her. I might
tell you she was ably represented by three attorneys. She had as many
lawyers there as we did and perhaps more. So she was not imposed upon.
I think in terms of my statement about discovery, I think I perhaps
was misunderstood, but I certainly conceded the White House might want
discovery to depose Ms. Lewinsky, but I still have a hard time
determining why they would need to discover what Ms. Currie might want
to say, who sits right outside the President's office every day, or
what Mr. Jordan might say, who plays golf with Mr. Clinton every day,
or Mr. Podesta, his former Chief of Staff.
I am just trying to save this Senate some time and question why we
would need to go through discovery of those types of people.
My last point I would like to make before I bring Mr. Hutchinson in
is Mr. Kendall makes a point, and I am not sure where they were going
in perhaps trying to worse case this situation, in terms of taking
forever and a day to conclude all kinds of witnesses. He alluded we
needed to take all the lawyers of Paula Jones and question her
motivation. I suggest to you that a real clue for her motivation for
this lawsuit, we could say, was the 850,000 reasons motivation she
received the other day. But let me end with that note and bring up Mr.
Hutchinson who will continue this process.
Thank you.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chair recognizes Mr. Manager Hutchinson.
Mr. Manager HUTCHINSON. I thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. I will just
take a moment.
Mr. Kendall did an outstanding job, as he always does, of making his
case for not calling witnesses. I thought the most compelling example
as to why we need witnesses was the fact that he called a live witness,
Vernon Jordan. Mr. Jordan testified here in this Chamber. Why did they
not present a transcript? Why did he want to bring a live witness?
Because it was real. It was alive. He was more meaningful than a
transcript. He told the story in short, concise ways that I have not
been able to do during my presentation during the last week. We would
like to have the same opportunity, not through video, but to present a
live witness so that he could cross-examine, so that we could question.
I think that is a fair proceeding.
Now, Mr. Kendall raised the point that the statements about the notes
that Ms. Lewinsky testified she discussed with Mr. Jordan were
referenced in her February 1998 proffer. When I was making my point, I
was referencing her August grand jury testimony, not the February
proffer, because my recollection is that the February proffer that was
submitted by Mr. Ginsburg had subsequently become a subject of
litigation because we were not able to reach an immunity agreement. So
perhaps that was the reason that subject was not inquired into by the
independent counsel. For whatever reason, my review of the transcripts
is that that subject was never broached with Mr. Jordan. I do not
profess perfect knowledge of it, but that is my understanding of it.
And then finally I want to also look at the discovery that Mr. Bryant
referenced. There was a gambling illustration that Mr. Kendall used
about blackjack. But another part of poker is bluffs. And I don't know
whether they are bluffing. I don't know whether they are serious about
all the discovery that they need to have. But I know that lawyers do
that sometimes to intimidate, to scare you away.
But I think even more important is that the House managers have
submitted to the rules of the Senate. We were not particularly happy
about all of them, but we recognized it was important to have
legitimacy in this process. We accept that. We move on.
I hope that whatever rules of discovery, whatever limitations you
wish to put, whatever timeframes you wish to put, that the White House
counsel will be as amenable to the desire of this Senate and this
Nation to conclude this as we have been in adopting what our desires
are to your schedule.
I yield to Mr. McCollum.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chair recognizes Mr. Manager McCollum.
Mr. Manager McCOLLUM. Mr. Chief Justice, thank you very much.
I want to make a couple of observations, and one of them seems pretty
apparent. Mr. Kendall says they are not afraid and I was wrong in
characterizing them as being afraid--the White House counsel--of
calling witnesses. But I am going to tell you, I cannot rationalize any
other way why he would
[[Page S1008]]
be out here to make the pitch as hard as he is against witnesses,
especially the sort of threat that this is going to go on and on and on
if we open the door and we call three witnesses. You know, we are down
from thinking we ought to have 10, 12, maybe 15 witnesses, to 3--Monica
Lewinsky, Vernon Jordan, and Sidney Blumenthal. And we have introduced
three--or proposed to introduce three very simple pieces of new
evidence. That can't take a lot of discovery, the need to go further
than that. You know, if he wants to produce witnesses, that is fine.
But I just can't imagine why that opens that door.
Mr. Holmes, he talks about, the attorney. What is the significance of
that declaration or affidavit, that sworn declaration that we would
like you to take in that says, ``well, we have to depose Mr. Holmes.
That was put in very simply because the counsel on the other side--I
don't accuse them of doing it intentionally--but the other day they
misled us, I think unintentionally misled you, on the idea that the
President, at the time he left the deposition in the Jones case and
went over to talk to Betty Currie the next day, didn't and couldn't
have had any idea that she was going to be called as a witness. In
fact, I think they said she never was on the witness list and she never
was subpoenaed.
What Mr. Holmes' declaration does, as I said earlier, is bring into
the record the subpoena that in fact was issued within a day or so of
that time of when Betty Currie was talked to. Remember, she was talked
to twice, the notice about it and her name being put on the witness
list--that is what that is all about--and a general explanation of why
they chose, as attorneys, to make that case, why they chose to put her
name out there, and subpoena her, so it is clear on the record.
Very simple. If you look at it--and I am sure you will have it before
you--his declaration is very short. It is like three paragraphs. And it
goes straight to the point. And it encloses these accompanying
documents.
I don't think you should, for one minute, think it opens the door to
some great big, gigantic discovery period. That is simply an idle
threat to intimidate, in my judgment--with a proper intimidation
effort, proper tactic; I don't accuse him of anything improper--to try
to discourage you from letting us have these three witnesses.
Second, I want to point out that with respect to some of the things
that I said, one thing I did say earlier is I don't know what all the
witnesses would say if we called them. I don't know what they all would
say, certainly. But I would expect them all to be consistent with what
they have already said in their sworn testimony. And there is nothing
inconsistent with my expecting them to be consistent on the facts.
We already know with that sworn testimony in the case of Monica
Lewinsky--she has immunity--that if she deviates and goes off of it,
she can get herself in trouble. But by no means does my expectation
that the testimony you already have will remain true mean that I don't
think there are new things to be brought out or that you shouldn't have
live witnesses here.
And I thought it interesting that Mr. Kendall totally ignored the one
thing that was most significant, in my mind, and that is, the whole
idea that there is a need for witnesses out here to determine their
credibility, to check their demeanor, to see how they respond to
questioning, to do all of those things that I described earlier, that
any reasonable attorney in any courtroom setting in this country in a
criminal case--and you do have to decide whether the crimes were
committed or not--would expect to do. So you can, as my colleagues have
said, look them in the eye and make that determination yourself. He
didn't even address that. And I think that that alone is sufficiently
good reason to have a live witness here, as I said before to you.
So with that in mind, I will yield to Mr. Rogan.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chair recognizes Mr. Rogan.
Mr. Manager ROGAN. Mr. Chief Justice, Members of the Senate, Mr.
Kendall made a very able and strong presentation. It was particularly
effective when he brought up a series of quotations from House Members
and House managers talking about the need for witnesses or the lack
thereof. It would be more effective if it were presented in context,
but it could not be, because the context of every single one of those
quotations was in reference to the distinction between the House's
function as the accusatory body versus the Senate's constitutional
function of being the body where an impeachment case is tried. There he
blurs the distinction. That is why in the Constitution a President is
impeached solely on the majority vote. But removal requires at the
trial a two-thirds vote.
Now, Mr. Kendall's presentation begs the question, did the founders
get it wrong when they designed this process? Did the founders simply
intend for us to waste our resources rather than conserve them and
simply do the very same thing, first in one body and then in the other,
with the sole distinction that the only difference would be the
ultimate vote? That was not their intent. That was not the procedure
established by the Constitution. And it is not the procedure recognized
throughout the country in court proceedings.
There is a reason why courts of inferior jurisdiction will be able to
hold a defendant in a criminal case to answer for trial at a
preliminary hearing based on hearsay testimony, based on transcripts,
based solely on police reports.
But that defendant at a trial has a constitutional right to come
forward. And the right to confront and cross-examine witnesses is
supremely guaranteed in the Constitution, because the Framers
understood the difference, even if White House counsel refuses to
acknowledge the difference.
Now the argument they have really isn't with the House managers.
Their argument is with the precedence of the House. Their argument, in
fact, is with people like the venerable Barbara Jordan, our late
distinguished former colleague. She understood the difference between
the House's function in an impeachment role versus the Senate's
function. She said during the Rodino hearings in establishing the
division between the two branches of the legislature, the House and the
Senate:
Assigning to one the right to accuse and to the other the
right to judge, the Framers of the Constitution were very
astute. They did not make the accusers and the judges the
same person.
Now, in the words of Yogi Berra, ``I fear that we are going through
deja vu all over again'' with Mr. Kendall's able proceeding, because
what he has accentuated in this presentation has been accentuated by
White House counsel ever since they first rose to address this body at
the lectern, and that is the complaint that no witnesses were called
before the House Judiciary Committee, and how wrong it is for members
of the House managers now to assert the need and the right to have
witnesses before this body when, in fact, no witnesses were called
before the Judiciary Committee.
Once again, he mistakes the function of the two Houses. But I would
invite the Members of this body, if that is an issue concerning them,
to go back and review the voluminous transcripts during the Judiciary
Committee where Chairman Hyde did everything but get on his knees and
beg the members of the President's defense team, beg our colleagues on
the other side of the aisle, to identify for us which witnesses they
wished to dispute, what facts they wanted to challenge, let us know who
the witnesses are where there is a contention in the evidence, and
despite their complaining, and despite their griping and despite their
anger over a supposedly unfair process, they never once identified in
the factual record whose testimony they wished to challenge.
What we heard repeatedly, day after day in the hearing and outside
before the cameras, was an attack upon the process rather than an
identification of the issues where there are factual disputes. In fact,
they refused to identify, despite the repeated pleas of Chairman Hyde,
who those witnesses were that they felt were appropriate, because the
chairman said, ``Tell us who they are, we will call them.''
They champion the cause of witnesses in word but they do not champion
the cause of witnesses in deed, at least not in the House, because the
same people who were complaining of the unfairness in the House for not
having witnesses suddenly have an allergic reaction to the concept of
witnesses being called before this body where it counts the most, where
the ultimate decision is to be made, where
[[Page S1009]]
the triers of fact have to make the constitutional decision whether the
case is sufficient for removal of the President.
And Mr. Kendall's repeated hints and statements that somehow they
were denied some form of due process in the House by not being able to
call witnesses is patently unfair and does not withstand the test of
the record. Chairman Hyde alluded to it a couple of days ago, and based
upon Mr. Kendall's presentation, I feel it is worth a minute or two of
this body's time. Mr. Kendall has stated in these proceedings, and I am
quoting:
We have never had the chance to call witnesses ourselves,
to examine them, to cross-examine them, to subpoena
documentary evidence--at no point in this process.
The record is to the contrary:
On October 5, the House passed a procedure by a voice vote which
included the right to call witnesses. On October 21, the House
Judiciary Committee staff met with Messrs. Ruff, Kendall and Craig. At
that time, Judiciary Committee staff asked the White House to provide
any exculpatory information and provide a list of any witnesses the
President wished to call. On November 9, the House Judiciary Committee
staff wrote to Messrs. Ruff, Kendall and Craig and again informed them
of the President's right to call witnesses. On November 19, Independent
Counsel Starr testified before the House Judiciary Committee. The
President's counsel was given the opportunity to question the
independent counsel. The President's counsel did not ask a question
relating to the facts of the independent counsel's report and
allegations against the President. On November 25, Chairman Hyde wrote
a letter to the President asking the President, among other things, to
provide any exculpatory information and inform the committee of any
witnesses he wished to call. On December 4, 2 working days before the
presentation of the President to the Judiciary Committee, counsel for
the President requested to put on 15 witnesses. The White House was
allowed to present all 15 witnesses, and not a single one of the 15
witnesses did they wish to call, that they asked to call, were factual
witnesses.
And so the complaints of unfairness are unfair.
One other point I want to make, because again I see a reversal in
roles, is that Mr. Kendall can't seem to decide in what type of
``ogre'' role he wants to portray us, because he said in his
presentation just a few minutes ago that we were somehow--at least he
alluded to the fact we were somehow tools of Judge Starr and the Office
of Independent Counsel. I was a little surprised to hear him suggest
that Judge Starr spoon-fed us the charges, and that Judge Starr spoon-
fed them to us to the point where he didn't know whether Judge Starr
should be deemed an honorary member of the House management team.
Well, that is an interesting proposition, because it seemed to me
just a day or two ago the same lawyers who are now making this
allegation were claiming constitutional unfairness before this body and
asking that this body dismiss the articles of impeachment. Why? Because
the House Judiciary Committee and the managers didn't present the exact
same charges that the independent counsel suggested. You can't have it
both ways. You can't fashion the argument depending on what the result
is being sought, and yet that is exactly what the managers with the
White House counsel are attempting to do.
Yesterday we were renegades who didn't follow the strict rules of
Judge Starr and didn't give them proper notice. Now, of course, he is
the marionette and we are the puppets doing his will.
Members of this body, it is the job of the House of Representatives,
it is the constitutional obligation of the House of Representatives, to
act as the accusatory body in an impeachment proceeding. The
Constitution gives the authority to this body the right to try that
case. This is the place for trial. This is the place to determine
guilt. This is the place to determine credibility. This is the place
for witnesses.
Mr. Chief Justice, I yield the remainder of our time to our
distinguished chairman of the House Judiciary Committee.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chair recognizes Mr. Manager Hyde. Mr. Manager
Hyde, you have 9 minutes remaining.
Mr. Manager HYDE. I won't use the entire 9 minutes.
Mr. Chief Justice, distinguished counsel and Senators, I will be very
brief. Mr. Rogan and my colleagues have handled this very well, but
there are just a couple of things I want to talk about.
It is disturbing, it is annoying, it is irritating when I hear that
the counsel for the President had been cut off from information, that
we have sequestered things. I pleaded with them to produce witnesses,
made the subpoenas available to them. They have a positive allergy to
fact witnesses.
Oh, they will come up with academics. We saw a parade of professors.
You know what an intellectual is? It is someone who is educated beyond
their intelligence. I certainly don't mean that of some of those
Harvard professors who they paraded out, even though we disagreed with
them, but you would get eye strain looking for a fact witness.
And it is remarkable, the flexibility they have, that they complain
that we called no witnesses in the House. Now they are complaining that
we are calling witnesses in the Senate as though they don't understand
the difference in the threshold. There we had to prove we had enough to
submit to the Senate for a trial but not try it over there. And a
majority vote prevails over there. Here, you have an extraordinary
mountain to climb: a two-thirds vote and the trial is here, and that is
the difference.
And witnesses help you. They won't help me. I know the record. I am
satisfied a compelling case is here for removal of the President. But
they will help you. And we aren't dragging this out. We have been as
swift as decency will let us be throughout this entire situation.
Their defense has never been on the facts. If they can come up with a
good fact witness that has something to say, we will see a reenactment
of the Indian rope trick, it seems to me. We will see professors,
though, if past is prologue. I don't know. But the threat of prolonged
hearings, I suppose, is supposed to make you tremble. It doesn't to me,
but then different things--different strokes, I guess, for different
folks. Their defense has been to demonize Mr. Starr to a fare-thee-well
and then yell about the process. That is their defense.
I will be frank with you. I am not sure I could stand a lot more of
that. But that is what they will do. As far as the information not
available to them, maybe not. Maybe some of the stuff we got from the
independent counsel was held in executive session, but it was available
to Mr. Conyers, available to Abbe Lowell, available to every Democrat
on the Judiciary Committee, and they went through it. I wrote with Mr.
Conyers to Mr. Starr a letter saying, ``Show us what you didn't send
us. Let's look at what you have over there. There might be some
exculpatory material.'' Mr. Conyers sent his people over and they
looked and they looked and they looked, and I would assume they were in
touch with you folks. I would assume they were. If they weren't, they
should have been. That is a breakdown in communication.
We have a good case. We have an excellent case without the witnesses.
But the witnesses help you. We have narrowed it down to three--a
pitiful three. I should think you would want to proceed with that
minimum testimony, and Mr. Kendall can try his cross-examination skills
on them, and that I want to watch.
Thank you.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. The time of both sides has now expired. The Chair
recognizes the majority leader.
Recess
Mr. LOTT. Mr. Chief Justice, in view of the time that we have been in
without a break, the next pending business is that we would want to
have a motion by Senator Harkin or Senator Wellstone. Before we do
that, I suggest that, without objection, we take a 15-minute break.
There being no objection, at 3:42 p.m., the Senate recessed until
4:04 p.m.; whereupon, the Senate reassembled when called to order by
the Chief Justice.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chair recognizes the majority leader.
Unanimous-Consent Agreement
Mr. LOTT. Mr. Chief Justice, I ask unanimous consent that during each
[[Page S1010]]
day the Senate sits as a Court of Impeachment, it be in order for
Senators to submit to the desk statements and introduce legislation.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. In the absence of objection, it is so ordered.
Mr. LOTT. Now, Mr. Chief Justice, I believe at this point it would be
in order for a motion to be made that we go into open debate, if any,
and then when that is dispensed with, we would go to the move to close
and would deal with that issue, and then we would begin the closed
session. And so I believe we are ready for a motion to be offered, if
any, at this time.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chair recognizes the Senator from Iowa, Mr.
Harkin.
Motion to Suspend the Rules
Mr. HARKIN. Mr. Chief Justice, in accordance with rule V of the
Senate's Standing Rules, I filed a motion of intent to move to suspend
the rules to open debate on this motion to subpoena witnesses. The
motion is at the desk. It is No. 5, I believe.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. The clerk will report the motion.
The legislative clerk read as follows:
The Senator from Iowa, Mr. Harkin, for himself and Mr.
Wellstone, moves to suspend the following portions of the
Rules of Procedure and Practice in the Senate When Sitting on
Impeachment Trials in regard to debate by Senators on a
motion to subpoena witnesses during the trial of President
William Jefferson Clinton.
(1) The phrase ``without debate'' in rule VII.
(2) The following portion of rule XX: ``, unless the Senate
shall direct the doors to be closed while deliberating upon
its decisions. A motion to close the doors may be acted upon
without objection, or, if objection is heard, the motion
shall be voted on without debate and by yeas and nays, which
shall be entered on the record''; and
(3) In rule XXIV, the phrases, ``without debate except when
the doors shall be closed for deliberation in that case'' and
``, to be had without debate.''
Mr. HARKIN addressed the Chair.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Senator from Iowa.
Mr. HARKIN. I ask for the yeas and nays.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. Is there a sufficient second? There is a
sufficient second.
The yeas and nays were ordered.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. The clerk will call the roll.
The assistant legislative clerk called the roll.
Mr. REID. I announce that the Senator from Maryland (Ms. Mikulski) is
absent due to illness.
The yeas and nays resulted--yeas 41, nays 58, as follows:
[Rollcall Vote No. 3]
[Subject Harkin motion to suspend the rules]
YEAS--41
Akaka
Bayh
Biden
Bingaman
Boxer
Breaux
Bryan
Cleland
Collins
Conrad
Daschle
Dodd
Dorgan
Durbin
Edwards
Feingold
Feinstein
Graham
Harkin
Hollings
Hutchison
Inouye
Johnson
Kennedy
Kerrey
Kohl
Lautenberg
Leahy
Levin
Lieberman
Moynihan
Murray
Reed
Reid
Robb
Sarbanes
Schumer
Specter
Torricelli
Wellstone
Wyden
NAYS--58
Abraham
Allard
Ashcroft
Baucus
Bennett
Bond
Brownback
Bunning
Burns
Byrd
Campbell
Chafee
Cochran
Coverdell
Craig
Crapo
DeWine
Domenici
Enzi
Fitzgerald
Frist
Gorton
Gramm
Grams
Grassley
Gregg
Hagel
Hatch
Helms
Hutchinson
Inhofe
Jeffords
Kerry
Kyl
Landrieu
Lincoln
Lott
Lugar
Mack
McCain
McConnell
Murkowski
Nickles
Roberts
Rockefeller
Roth
Santorum
Sessions
Shelby
Smith (NH)
Smith (OR)
Snowe
Stevens
Thomas
Thompson
Thurmond
Voinovich
Warner
NOT VOTING--1
Mikulski
The CHIEF JUSTICE. On this vote the yeas are 41, the nays are 58.
Two-thirds of those Senators voting, a quorum being present, not having
voted in the affirmative, the motion is not agreed to.
The Chair recognizes the majority leader.
Mr. LOTT. Mr. Chief Justice, that motion being defeated, I believe it
is now in order to move to close the session so we can have debate on
the question of the motion to subpoena witnesses.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. The majority leader is correct.
Mr. LOTT. I so move, Mr. Chief Justice.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. The question is on the motion.
The motion was agreed to.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. The motion carries.
Mr. LOTT. Mr. Chief Justice, I would like to ask that Senators remain
at their place, but I will put in a request for a quorum just
momentarily so the appropriate arrangements can be made for the closed
session.
Mr. Chief Justice, I suggest the absence of a quorum.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. The clerk will call the roll.
The legislative clerk proceeded to call the roll.
Closed Session
(At 4:29 p.m., the quorum was dispensed with and the doors of the
Chamber were closed. The proceedings of the Senate were held in closed
session until 8:01 p.m., at which time the following occurred:)
Open Session
(At 8:01 p.m., the doors of the Chamber were opened and the Senate
resumed proceedings in open session.)
Mr. LOTT. Mr. Chief Justice, I now ask unanimous consent that the
Senate return to open session.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. In the absence of an objection, it is so ordered.
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