[Congressional Record Volume 143, Number 160 (Thursday, November 13, 1997)]
[House]
[Pages H10903-H10909]
From the Congressional Record Online through the Government Publishing Office [www.gpo.gov]
CALLING FOR RESIGNATION OR REMOVAL FROM OFFICE OF SARA LISTER,
ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF THE ARMY
Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I move to suspend the rules and agree to
the concurrent resolution (H. Con. Res. 197) calling for the
resignation or removal from office of Sara E. Lister, Assistant
Secretary of the Army for Manpower and Reserve Affairs.
The Clerk read as follows:
H. Con. Res. 197
Whereas Sara E. Lister, Assistant Secretary of the Army for
Manpower and Reserve Affairs, on October 26, 1997, at a
public conference held in Baltimore, Maryland, stated that
``The Marines are extremists.'';
Whereas such a characterization denigrates 222 years of
sacrifice and dedication to the Nation by the Marine Corps
and dishonors the hundreds of thousands of Marines whose
blood has been shed in the name of freedom;
Whereas citizens from all walks of life have donned the
Marine Corps uniform and gone to war to defend the Nation,
many never to return;
[[Page H10904]]
Whereas the young people of America join the Marine Corps
to be challenged, to be held to high standards, and to be
part of something bigger than themselves;
Whereas a characterization of the Marines as
``extremists'', especially when made by a senior military
department official with responsibility for military
personnel policy, has the potential to have an
extraordinarily detrimental effect on morale, recruitment,
and retention not just for the Marine Corps but for all
branches of the Armed Forces;
Whereas Marines and Army soldiers have fought and died side
by side time and again in defense of the Nation;
Whereas the values of honor, courage, and commitment
embodied by the Marine Corps are not extreme: and
Whereas to describe the Marines as ``extremists'' violates
all rules of propriety and does not reflect the views of the
American people: Now, therefore, be it
Resolved by the House of Representatives (the Senate
concurring), That (1) Sara E. Lister, Assistant Secretary of
the Army for Manpower and Reserve Affairs, should immediately
resign from office, and (2) if she does not so resign, the
President should remove her from office.
The SPEAKER pro tempore. Pursuant to the rule, the gentleman from New
York [Mr. Solomon] and the gentleman from Missouri [Mr. Skelton] each
will control 20 minutes.
The Chair recognizes the gentleman from New York [Mr. Solomon].
Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak in support of this resolution I have
brought before the House along with the gentleman from Pennsylvania
[Mr. McHale] my very good friend and I am sorry to see retiring fellow
Marine. He is a great American. He was a great Marine. He was a great
Congressman.
Sadly, Mr. Speaker, this is a very grim and unfortunate situation
which has raised the ire of myself and countless others from all walks
of life and particularly those who have served proudly in the military
of all branches but particularly the Marine Corps. I am referring to
comments made by a high-ranking official of our Defense Department who
has been confirmed by the other body to support and defend the
Constitution of the United States in her capacity as Assistant
Secretary of the Army. Her comments have greatly insulted the United
States Marine Corps and they have shattered her ability to effectively
do her job as someone in charge of military personnel and reservists in
the U.S. Army.
Ms. Lister's comments characterizing the Marine Corps as
``extremists'' is beneath contempt. I ask you to ask Captain O'Grady.
Do you remember him? Who rescued him? The Marines. Ask him if he thinks
they were extremists.
No amount of spin and dissembling can explain her comments. They are
simply arrogant, they are wrong and entirely out of line. Attempts by
Ms. Lister to try and explain away her blatant attack on this
distinguished branch of the military by saying that her comments were
taken out of context does not constitute an apology, Mr. Speaker. In
fact, Mr. Speaker, such quibbling and backpedaling is not an apology
and is just a further insult to all of us who have worn the uniform of
our country, especially those of us that served in the Marine Corps. To
leave someone in this position within our Defense Department at this
point would be nothing more than irresponsible.
As the United States continues to face potential combat actions in
places like Iraq, and it could happen tomorrow, and have troops serving
in dangerous deployments all around the world, Ms. Lister does not
deserve to be in a position of special trust and of confidence within
the Pentagon. The fact that she would make these comments publicly to a
large group is just again irresponsible. Her statements are
symptomatic, I believe, of a political correctness of the worst kind
that is permeating the U.S. military. They were intemperate and if
allowed to stand would constitute a major step down this slippery slope
towards a military that is not prepared to do its job.
Mr. Speaker, take my word for it. We are treading on very dangerous
territory here. If we do not take a strong stand now and demand the
removal from office of Ms. Lister and those who share her opinions, we
could seriously compromise our combat readiness and effectiveness. If
the battle for the soul and the fighting spirit of all members of the
Armed Forces is to be won, it has to be won by dismissing from
leadership anyone who would make such irresponsible statements like
this.
{time} 1730
Mr. Speaker, I reserve the balance of my time.
Mr. SKELTON. Mr. Speaker, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
Missourian Mark Twain once said that a person should live so that if
someone says something bad about him, no one would believe it. That is
the way I think the U.S. Marine Corps finds themselves today. I do not
think anyone can say anything bad about the Marine Corps that would be
believed. It is an honorable, wonderful part of our national defense.
But I think we should pause and take a deep breath on this matter,
Mr. Speaker, and I am sure that this resolution will pass, but let us
take a quick gander at the letter that Sara E. Lister, assistant
secretary of the Army for manpower and reserve affairs, wrote to
General C.C. Krulak, the Commandant of the Marine Corps. This is a
letter of apology, and I will put it in toto in the Record, but let me
read it and share with this body some words therefrom.
``Dear General Krulak: This letter is in reference to a quotation
attributed to me during a panel discussion sponsored by the U.S.
Military and Post-Cold War Society Project of the John M. Olin
Institute for Strategic Studies, Harvard University.
``I apologize to the Marine Corps and all current and former Marines
for my remarks. It is unfortunate that my remarks were taken out of
context. The issue under consideration was in relationship between
civilian military segments of our society. In that context, we were
asked to comment upon 14 scholarly papers discussing various aspects of
that topic. I discussed several of the papers, including an interesting
piece which was focused on the Marine Corps as an example of possible
disconnects between society and the military. My point, ineptly put,
was that all the services had different relationships with civilian
society based in part on their culture, the size of their force, and
their mission. My use of the word ``extremism'' was inappropriate and
wrong.
``I regret that the use of this term during an academic discussion
has generated a controversy that does not represent my views or those
of the Army. I am well aware of the close and mutually supportive
relationship between the Army and Marine Corps, both in war and in
peace.
``Again, my remarks were not intended to denigrate the Marine Corps
in any way. It is unfortunate that they were misplaced. The Marine
Corps has a proud and honorable tradition of service to our country.
Sincerely, Sarah E. Lister, Assistant Secretary of the Army.''
I will put this in the Record, and I read it for the purpose to show
that Sara Lister has done her best in her position as an individual to
express her regret and apologize, and I feel certain, Mr. Speaker, that
the Commandant of the Marine Corps will accept this apology and move
on.
Mr. Speaker, I have spent a great deal of my efforts within the Armed
Services Committee, now the Committee on National Security, working
with the various services, urging them, through legislation and
discussion, to create a joint atmosphere of working with each other so
that the Marines work with the Army, the Navy works with the Air Force,
and all of the different variations thereof.
This is a total force, and it is unfortunate that Ms. Lister's
comments created this issue, and I hope that as a result of this
discussion here on the floor we can put this behind us and be proud of
our Marine Corps, be proud of our Army, be proud of our Navy, be proud
of our Air Force, and urge them to continue to do the wonderful work
that they do in protecting freedom and the interests of our country.
It is with this in mind that I make these comments, and hopefully we
can, Mr. Speaker, put this issue behind us and let it be water going on
down the river.
The letter in its entirety is as follows:
Department of the Army, Office of the Assistant
Secretary, Manpower and Reserve Affairs,
Washington, DC, November 13, 1997.
Gen. C. C. Krulak,
Commandant of the Marine Corps,
Washington, DC.
Dear General Krulak: This letter is in reference to a
quotation attributed to me
[[Page H10905]]
during a panel discussion sponsored by the U.S. Military and
Post-Cold War Society Project of the John M. Olin Institute
for Strategic Studies (Harvard University).
I apologize to the Marine Corps and all current and former
Marines for my remarks. It is unfortunate that my remarks
were taken out of context. The issue under consideration was
the relationship between civilian and military segments of
our society; in that context, we were asked to comment upon
14 scholarly papers discussing various aspects of that topic.
I discussed several of the papers, including an interesting
piece which was focused on the Marine Corps as an example of
possible disconnects between society and the military. My
point--ineptly put--was that all the services had different
relationships with civilian society, based in part on their
culture, the size of their force and their mission. My use of
the word ``extremism'' was inappropriate and wrong.
I regret that the use of this term during an academic
discussion has generated a controversy that does not
represent my views or those of the Army. I am well aware of
the close and mutually supportive relationship between the
Army and the Marine Corps, both in war and in peace.
Again, my remarks were not intended to denigrate the Marine
Corps in any way. It is unfortunate that they were
misinterpreted. The Marine Corps has a proud and honorable
tradition of service to our country.
Sincerely,
Sara E. Lister,
Assistant Secretary of the Army.
Mr. SKELTON. Mr. Speaker, I yield 3 minutes to the gentleman from
Pennsylvania [Mr. McHale].
Mr. McHALE. Mr. Speaker, I thank the gentleman from Missouri for
yielding this time to me.
I have to tell my colleagues, Mr. Speaker, that when I read the words
of Assistant Secretary Lister in the Washington Times this morning, I
was both stunned and dismayed. Her comments were needlessly
embarrassing to one of our Nation's great military services, the United
States Army.
As I read her comments, I realized that professional rivalry between
the services is perhaps inevitable, even healthy. However, the comments
that were attributed, I think accurately, to Assistant Secretary Lister
were irresponsibly caustic. They were not taken out of context, they
were not misinterpreted, they were simply wrong. Unfortunately for
Assistant Secretary Lister, she was simultaneously articulate and
foolish.
By contrast, Mr. Speaker, just the other day, on November 10, the
United States Marine Corps celebrated its 222d birthday. At that
celebration and by his presence, showing what I believe was the kind of
respect that the services owed to one another, was the Chief of Staff
of the Army, General Reimer. At that memorial service, where several
thousand Marines had gathered, one Army general in uniform sat quietly
in tribute to a brother service.
I would certainly hope that on all occasions senior officials in
uniform and in civilian clothes from the United States Marine Corps
would pay equal tribute to the United States Army. Assistant Secretary
Lister is entitled to her opinion, and if she were a private citizen
and not the Assistant Secretary of the Army, I do not believe this
issue would be brought before the House today. But she spoke in an
official capacity and should be held responsible in that capacity.
In my view, Mr. Speaker, Assistant Secretary Lister should
immediately and unequivocally, unlike the statement read by the
gentleman from Missouri, unequivocally rescind her statements,
apologizing appropriately, or she may, in the alternative, defend her
judgment and then retire to private life. No senior official holding
her views, absent a blunt apology, should remain in a policy-making
position within the Department of Defense.
If I could deliver a bottom line, Mr. Speaker, it would be this:
Contrary to the outrageous rhetoric inappropriately used by Assistant
Secretary Lister, the very best people I have ever met have been called
lance corporal in the United States Marine Corps. I rise therefore in
strong support of the Solomon resolution.
Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
Mr. Speaker, I correct the gentleman, it is the Solomon-McHale
resolution.
Just to respond, Mr. Speaker, because my very good friend, the
gentleman from Missouri [Mr. Skelton], who is one of the most
distinguished and respected Members of this body, mentioned that Ms.
Sara Lister was speaking as an individual. Here is the program, and she
is listed as the Honorable Sara Lister, Department of the Army. She
spoke in an official capacity, and I am going to get a copy of the
tape, and I want every one of my colleagues to listen to that tape, and
then they will share my view completely.
Mr. Speaker, I yield 3 minutes to the very distinguished gentleman
from Indiana [Mr. Buyer].
Mr. BUYER. Mr. Speaker, I compliment the gentleman from New York [Mr.
Solomon] for bringing this legislation and my good friend and
colleague, lieutenant colonel in the Reserves, the gentleman from
Pennsylvania [Mr. McHale].
I also have been a very good listener of my friend, the gentleman
from Missouri [Mr. Skelton], and I agree with him, it is always moments
to take a deep breath and not act on emotion, and I always follow that
advice of my colleague. But this is also a comment that was made in
official capacity with a tongue-in-cheek apology.
These comments were not taken out of context. As a matter of fact, I
would respect Sara Lister even more if she had stood her ground and
said, I said it, I mean it, that is how I have always felt. That is not
what she is saying.
Now let me share something else. Over the past year, in dealing with
the issues on gender and race in the United States military, my
colleagues, see, I do not separate slanderous comments from one versus
the other. If someone makes a slanderous comment on race, sure enough,
whether it is their opinion, they will be called before immediately.
Well, if someone makes a slanderous remark in gender or in reference to
some other institutions, this is pretty insulting.
I strongly support this resolution and call for the immediate
resignation of the Army Assistant Secretary Sara Lister. I believe it
is imperative for our military leaders to fully respect and earn the
respect of the men and women who are willing to make the ultimate
sacrifice to protect and defend our country. How sad that, as the rest
of the Department of Defense is working so diligently to advance the
notion of joint operations, the Army's Assistant Secretary for Manpower
and Reserve Affairs would spew such a divisive statement in a public
forum with regard to her demeaning comments of the Marine Corps. These
comments show a total lack of understanding for the unique mission and
tremendous value system of the Marine Corps as well as that of the
United States Army of which she leads.
I fail to understand how the values of honor, courage, commitment can
be considered extremist and a little dangerous. Our Nation should be
proud of the commitment each of our military services makes in
instilling a strong sense of values into men and women who serve,
something that, unfortunately, is missing in society today.
How sad, when the uniformed leadership in the Army is leading
initiatives to establish joint exercise forces to optimize the
synergistic abilities of the Nation's forces, that the chief personnel
official of the United States Army would make such a blatant, albeit
sophomoric, attack on the Army's partner in land battle.
How sad, when the rest of the Pentagon struggles in concert to
address the future challenges of a largely undefined world stage, that
such a key figure in the Army's hierarchy would devote her time on a
stage provided by Harvard's Olin Institute of Strategic Studies to make
such an unjustified, demeaning statement against the honored component
of the Nation's defense.
How sad that as a panel member in the forum dedicated to civil/
military relations, Ms. Lister so completely justified in growing the
perception of a widening schism between the military and the liberal
element of the social elite.
The saddest of all is how sad anyone is reading the Washington Times
headline, quote, ``Top Army Woman: Marines extremist,'' might think
even for a moment that this was the top woman in the Army. That brings
disservice upon many of the men and particularly the women who serve in
the military today.
I strongly urge the President and the Secretary of Defense to fully
review her comments to determine whether
[[Page H10906]]
they are consistent with the administration's views of the
contributions to the military services. More importantly, before they
consider Ms. Lister as a candidate for the Secretary of the Army, the
President and the Secretary of Defense must decide whether her comments
reflect the proper level of respect for our military members necessary
to be an effective civilian leader and to achieve the credibility of
the military leadership for our country to continue to field the best
fighting force.
It is critical for the service secretaries and the service chiefs to
be able to work together effectively. It is also critical that the
civilian leaders in the military understand and respect the unique
missions and contributions of each of the military services.
I urge my colleague to support the Solomon-McHale resolution and to
send a strong signal that this country's Marine Corps as well as each
of the other services, that Congress does appreciate and respect their
dedicated service despite Sarah Lister's demeaning remarks.
Mr. SKELTON. I yield 3 minutes to the gentleman from Pennsylvania
[Mr. Murtha].
Mr. MURTHA. Mr. Speaker, let me join the Members with their concern
about what the Assistant Secretary said, but let me also say I just
talked to her, and she says that she was taken completely out of
context. I think we should give her an opportunity to appear before the
committee and let her have her say.
Now she is in the process. She has already resigned. She is in the
process of leaving the job. She resigned several months ago, and it
just seems to me that, as terrible as what was reported that she said,
she should have an opportunity to say to a committee what she said, and
give her an opportunity to explain.
For instance, it was recorded in the press that she is for women in
combat. She says she denies that, she is not for women in combat, and
many of the things that she says have been reported are inaccurate.
{time} 1745
So it just seems that for us to take precipitous action on something
like this, without giving her an opportunity, is unfair to her, whether
you agree with her philosophically or not. I certainly do not know
enough about what she said or what her position is to be able to judge
whether she is right or not, but it seems before we rush to
condemnation, that we should give her an opportunity to appear before a
committee and have her say about these comments she has made.
She is shattered by what has happened. She has the highest regard for
the Marine Corps. She says she started her career working closely with
the Marine Corps, and everything she told me personally, just a few
minutes ago on the phone, was that she has the highest regard, and she
feels absolutely devastated that these comments she made were, as she
says, taken out of context.
Now, whether they were or not, I do not know. But I do know I think
that we should give her an opportunity to come before a committee and
explain what she said, what the circumstances were, and exactly what
she meant by these comments.
Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Chairman, who I have such a high regard
for, and he and I have served on so many committees, and he is a
recipient of the Iron Mike Award, but if he would not consider
allowing, perhaps allowing this go to committee, and allow the
committee to take this up and discuss it with her before we rush to a
vote on this very delicate situation, which could chastise the woman
who is serving this position, maybe prematurely and unfairly, possibly.
I do not know. I am not judging. I am just asking that we might be
able to do something here that would be a little less onerous and
perhaps give her an opportunity to have her say.
Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
Mr. Speaker, I have great respect for the gentleman from Pennsylvania
[Mr. Murtha]. He is one of the finest Members of this body. I want him
to go and listen to the tape, and then make the same speech he just
made. He will change his mind.
This is what she said: ``The Marines are extremists. Wherever you
have extremists, you have got some risk of total disconnection with
society, and that is a little dangerous.''
Then she goes on and she cites, ``The Marine Corps is, you know, they
have all these checkerboard fancy uniforms and stuff.''
What does she mean by that ``checkerboard,'' my good friend? You know
what she means. She means the medals the Marines are wearing. It is the
only checkerboard on a uniform.
Mr. MURTHA. Mr. Speaker, will the gentleman yield for a comment on
the uniform?
Mr. SOLOMON. I yield 1 minute to my friend, the gentleman from
Pennsylvania [Mr. Murtha].
Mr. MURTHA. She says that she was not the one that made the comment
about the uniform. She says absolutely it was the woman who was on the
panel, and she did not say one word about the uniform.
That is what I am saying, there was some confusion. That is what she
said. Now, I can only tell you what her comments were.
Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I will have a copy of the tape on the
gentleman's desk tomorrow.
Mr. Speaker, I yield 2 minutes to the gentleman from California [Mr.
Cunningham].
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Mr. Speaker, there are not two more Members I respect
more than the gentleman from Missouri [Mr. Skelton] and the gentleman
from Pennsylvania [Mr. Murtha].
I have not heard the tape. I will listen to it tonight, if I can. If
that is the case, then, yes, she should have her day. But the problem
is the day will be 2 or 3 months from now, when all this issue is dead.
Joe Paterno, one of my favorite coaches at Penn State, told a story
when I was in a football clinic. He said his dad was in the Army and
hated the Marine Corps. He said they were a bunch of peacocks.
You can imagine Joe Paterno's amazement and the father's amazement
and this old Italian family when his oldest brother came up and said he
was going to join the Marine Corps. The father in his old way said,
``Go off, my son, and become a peacock.'' And he did. This is a son
that never spoke back to his father a day in his life in that old
Italian family.
The day he came back after boot camp in his finery, his father said,
``Look, here is that peacock.'' And a man that had never spoken an ill
word to his Italian father in his life put his finger in his chest and
says, ``Don't you ever say anything bad about the United States Marine
Corps. It can lick any 10 Army regiments.'' The gentleman from
California [Mr. Hunter] would disagree with that.
But his whole idea was how do you collectively take a mind and mold
it into a fighting machine with respect, and he took that same esprit
de corps and turned it into the Penn State football team. And he talks
about tradition.
What this gentlelady has just done is violate that tradition, and we
cannot accept that kind of character, or lack of character, in the
leadership of the Department of Defense. We can neither accept nor
tolerate it. And, in my opinion, if the allegations are true, this
gentlelady has no place, because the position of leadership in the
military is not just a position, it is a guidepost for men and women in
all the services.
Mr. SKELTON. Mr. Speaker, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
Mr. Speaker, I can only hope that when the dust settles out of all of
this, that wonderful United States Marine Corps, that great Army that
we have, as well as the outstanding Navy and the Air Force that we
have, will continue to work together in a joint atmosphere without
rancor, without grudges, and let this be water that goes down the
river.
Mr. Speaker, I yield back the balance of my time.
Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I yield 3 minutes to the gentleman from
Maryland [Mr. Gilchrest], a very distinguished former Marine. He is a
very quiet guy, but I think you will like what he has to say. He is a
very serious Member of this body.
Mr. GILCHREST. Mr. Speaker, I thank the gentleman from New York for
yielding. I would like to echo the words of my good friend and
colleague,
[[Page H10907]]
the gentleman from Missouri [Mr. Skelton], that we need to release our
feeling of anger and rancor and let this go down the stream and flow
out into the gentle waters.
We are all Americans, whether it is the Army, the Navy, the Marine
Corps, the Air Force, the Coast Guard, the Merchant Marine. Whoever it
is, we all serve this country in a way that we feel is right.
We are reacting now to some words that we do not agree with. But the
positive part of those words, which I think were ill-spoken, the
positive part of those words, which I think we all should not agree
with, is that we are here to discuss that we as Americans in the
military that serve our country do so in the proudest condition that we
can. We believe in this country and we believe in freedom, so those in
the military service are going to lay down their lives, which is the
best gift that they can give, for their country. We consistently give
words of encouragement to those soldiers, sailors and marines in lonely
areas around the country.
I would just like to relay a very short story when I was in the
service as a young marine with other young Marines, to give some sense
about the military service.
Whenever we would cross this rice paddy in Vietnam, we would be shot
at by a sniper. So we decided one day to send across this rice paddy
some decoy marines, and then some of us would go around and find out
where the sniper was.
We did that. The decoys went across the rice paddy. We went around,
and from the ``hootch'' grass hut we could see some firing. We went
into the grass hut, and we found a very old man with one leg, an old
woman, about in their nineties, and a little girl about 10.
Well, we started to remove the old man. We were going to take him in
because we assumed he was the sniper. The old woman sat on a little
stump and started to cry. The little girl began screaming and pulling
at our uniforms, desperate not to let this old man, maybe her great
grandfather, go. She thought she would never see him again.
So we young marines, trained for combat, stopped. We looked into the
eyes of the old man, and the woman stopped crying, in desperate fear,
wondering what we were going to do next. We looked into the eyes of the
old man, and I can still see his eyes. He had for an instant striking
fear in his eyes, not knowing what we were going to do. And then the
fear turned to curiosity, the curiosity turned to friendship, and we
looked at this old man as a human being.
We simply let him go, and we walked away. We were never shot at again
when we crossed that rice paddy. But we young marines, trained for
desperate combat, found in this man a sense of common humanity, and
that is what all the military services are about.
Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I yield 3 minutes to the gentleman from
Texas [Mr. Sam Johnson], someone I think we can all certainly believe.
He was a prisoner of war for 6 years and 10 months, and who in the
world could ever live through that, but the gentleman from Texas did.
(Mr. SAM JOHNSON of Texas asked and was given permission to revise
and extend his remarks.)
Mr. SAM JOHNSON of Texas. Mr. Speaker, I would say to the gentleman
from Missouri [Mr. Skelton], I appreciate his position, I really do. I
just cannot believe that we as a country have sunk to this level, where
we have a high-level Clinton administration official referring to a
branch of our military, in this case the Marine Corps, as being
``extremist'' and ``dangerous to society.'' The testimony you just
heard is she does not say that. According to Mr. Solomon, this is all
on tape. It is her words. It is not taken out of context.
These types of comments are not just unacceptable, but they are
false, and a telling sign of disdain for the military by this
administration. And no response, you might notice no response has been
given by the Secretary of the Army, and this lady, even though it has
been said she has resigned or is intending to resign, is being
considered for the post of Secretary of the Army. It is unbelievable.
How many times have we seen in a country like ours bravery and
ultimate sacrifice by one of our Armed Services?
I was in the Air Force, but the United States Marines showed their
colors in the Pacific during World War II; in Korea, where I fought at
the Chosin Reservoir; in Vietnam, where I was a POW in Khe Sahn; or the
numerous evacuations of our citizens who have been endangered for no
other reason than just being an American. Our Marines have been there.
The Secretary, it has been said, went on to mock the Marine uniform.
``They have all got on these checkerboard fancy uniforms, but the Army
is sort of muddy boots on the ground.''
Do you know that the Marines are our ceremonial troops? Do you think
that our Embassies around the world would love to have muddy boots
guarding our Embassies in a ceremonial fashion? I do not think so.
I suggest the Secretary ask Captain Scott O'Grady what his opinion is
of the Marine uniforms of those men who pulled him out of Bosnia, and
what they were wearing. I think she would be enlightened, to say the
least.
I am not here to enlighten the Secretary, or our Congress. I just
think that that conduct is inexcusable and should result in immediate
dismissal. The sacrifices that Marines, and, for that matter, all our
Armed Forces, have made should not be subject to administration
comments that are childish and dishonorable.
I believe Secretary Lister must go, and I hope, Mr. President, that
you are listening.
Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I yield such time as he may consume to the
gentleman from Alabama [Mr. Bachus].
(Mr. BACHUS asked and was given permission to revise and extend his
remarks.)
Mr. BACHUS. Mr. Speaker, I rise in support of this resolution. I do
it on behalf of not only myself, but my oldest son, who I am proud to
say serves in the U.S. Marines, and his family, my other four children
and their mother.
Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I yield 1 minute to my very good friend,
the gentleman from Florida [Mr. Scarborough]. I wish I had more time to
give him. We are just out of time.
Mr. SCARBOROUGH. Mr. Speaker, this is truly a very bad time for us. I
wish Ms. Lister, instead of going to this Harvard symposium, would have
been where I was a week ago and seen the 222nd birthday of the United
States Marine Corps, and hear the commandant talk about the legend of
Bella Wood in World War I, or talk about what happened at Iwo Jima in
World War II, or talk about Khe Sahn or Inchon, or what the Marines did
there, or look at what happened in Lebanon in 1980s.
What gets me is this same administration that has shown contempt for
readiness in the name of political correctness in the 1990s may have
contempt for the Marines, may be elitist and have elitist attitudes,
but every time there is a problem halfway across the world, they have
no problem picking up the phone and dialing their 911, and that
continues to be and has always been, for 222 years, the United States
Marine Corps.
{time} 1800
Let us forget the spin control, let us forget the apologies. They are
too late. She must resign and leave her position at once.
Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I yield 1 minute to my very good friend,
the gentleman from California [Mr. Packard].
(Mr. PACKARD asked and was given permission to revise and extend his
remarks.)
Mr. PACKARD. Mr. Speaker, I am personally incensed at these comments.
My father was a civilian and fought with the Marines on Wake Island and
spent 4 and a half years in a Japanese prison camp with those Marines.
I represent the largest Marine base in the United States, Camp
Pendleton. It is in the heart of my district. Fifty-five thousand
Marines are incensed at what this lady has said. Calling them
dangerous, calling them extremists. That is unconscionable, Mr.
Speaker, and she should be relieved of her responsibilities
immediately.
Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I yield 1 minute to the gentleman from
California [Mr. Hunter], an outstanding member of this body.
Mr. HUNTER. Mr. Speaker, I thank the gentleman for yielding me this
time.
[[Page H10908]]
I think the interesting point of this is that the very point of
criticism that the Clinton administration official made about the
Marine Corps is really in essence their strength. The Marine Corps is a
service that did not bend to the winds of political correctness when
this mixed gender training was requested by the Clinton administration.
Today, my service, the U.S. Army, has representatives around the
country in courts-martial trying to explain what happened to young
women who were injected into basic training with young men in very
close quarters, and all of the tragedies that resulted from that. The
Marine Corps is one service that perhaps, more than all of the others,
has kept its tradition of duty, honor and country, and Chuck Krulak,
the Commandant, is one of the very, very best.
So I think we will come out of this with a stronger Marine Corps,
more adherence to tradition, and a stronger America.
Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, to close for our side, I yield the balance
of our time to the distinguished gentleman from South Carolina [Mr.
Spence], chairman of the Committee on National Security, an outstanding
American.
(Mr. SPENCE asked and was given permission to revise and extend his
remarks and include extraneous material in the Record.)
Mr. SPENCE. Mr. Speaker, I thank the gentleman for yielding me this
time.
Mr. Speaker, as a Navy veteran and the brother of a retired Marine,
and on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of Marines, living and dead,
who served this country over all these years, I am personally saddened
to hear of the remarks attributed to Ms. Sara Lister relative to the
Marine Corps.
I cannot go into detail, I do not have enough time to make a speech
on behalf of the Corps and in defense of the Corps, but I would like to
just submit as part of my remarks an article which appeared in the
Washington Times today which this quote comes from. Kate O'Beirne, the
Washington editor of National Review magazine, appeared with Ms. Lister
on the panel, and here is what she said:
``It is actually a slander at both the Marine Corps and the Army,''
she said in an interview. ``What attributes of the Marine Corps does
she disrespect? Self-discipline? Courage? Patriotism? She believes
these pose a danger to society and by implication she's grateful the
Army doesn't share the Marine Corps attributes. Shocking.''
Top Army Woman: Marines ``Extremist''
(By Rowan Scarborough)
Sara E. Lister, the Army's top personnel official and the
Pentagon's most ardent advocate of women in combat, in a
public forum called the Marines ``extremists'' and ``a little
dangerous.''
Mrs. Lister, the assistant secretary of the Army for
manpower and reserve affairs, also belittled the Marine Corps
uniform.
``I think the Army is much more connected to society than
the Marines are,'' Mrs. Lister told an Oct. 26 seminar. ``The
Marines are extremists. Wherever you have extremist, you've
got some risks of total disconnection with society. And
that's a little dangerous.''
In response to a query by The Washington Times, the Army
attempted last night to dampen a growing controversy that
clearly rankled top officers:
``The statement attributed to Mrs. Lister was taken out of
context. Her reference to the Marines and their relationship
to society would be more aptly described as `unique.' ''
Gen. Charles Krulak, the Marine Corps commandant, issued a
statement last night at his quarters vigorously defending a
branch he has served 34 years.
``Assistant Secretary of the Army Sara Lister has been
quoted as characterizing the Marine Corps as `extremists,' ''
Gen. Krulak said. ``Such a depiction would summarily dismiss
222 years of sacrifice and dedication to the nation. It would
dishonor the hundreds of thousands of Marines whose blood has
been shed in the name of freedom.
``Citizens from all walks of life have donned the Marine
Corps uniform and gone to war to defend this nation, never to
return. Honor, courage and commitment are not extreme.''
Mrs. Lister, a close adviser to Army Secretary Togo West,
made the remarks to a group of academics and military
personnel at a conference in Baltimore.
According to a tape recording of the remarks, obtained by
The Times, Mrs. Lister, who was appointed by President
Clinton, also mocked the uniform of the Marine Corps.
``The Marine Corps is--you know they have all these
checkerboard fancy uniforms and stuff,'' she said. ``But the
Army is sort of muddy boots on the ground.''
Said Gen. Krulak, ``I agree with Mrs. Lister's depiction of
the U.S. Army as `sort of muddy boots on the ground.' I need
not recount the times where the muddy boots of soldiers fell
alongside those of Marines as we fought side by side.''
Kate O'Beirne, the Washington editor of National Review
magazine, appeared with Mrs. Lister on the panel, along with
retired Army Lt. Gen. Theodore Stroup. Mrs. O'Beirne,
according to the tape recording, told the conference,
sponsored by Harvard University's Olin Institute for
Strategic Studies, that she was ``shocked and incredulous''
by Mrs. Lister's remarks.
``It is actually a slander at both the Marine Corps and the
Army,'' she said in an interview later. ``What attributes of
the Marine Corps does she disrespect? Self-discipline?
Courage? Patriotism? She believes these pose a danger to
society and by implication she's grateful the Army doesn't
share the Marine Corps attributes. Shocking.
``I just want to say something on behalf of the Marine
Corps. Unlike Secretary Lister, I don't see them as an
extremist organization nor do I fear them in any way. And I
find myself grateful for them most of the time.''
Mrs. Lister's caustic comments are sure to revive criticism
within the military and among veterans groups that the
Clinton administration is staffed at the highest levels with
men and women with anti-military attitudes.
Mr. Clinton was sharply criticized by veterans groups in
the 1992 campaign for remarks he made as young man trying to
avoid the Vietnam War draft, saying that he and his friends
held a ``loathing'' for the military, and shortly after
taking office he offended military ranks with an attempt to
lift long-standing policy barring known homosexuals in the
military.
Mrs. Lister has said she will leave her post sometime this
year and was honored recently at a retirement party. Pentagon
sources say she may be a candidate for secretary of the Army
if Mr. West, as expected, is named to head the Department of
Veterans Affairs.
* * * * *
The Army's statement defending Mrs. Lister went on to say
that ``it is inappropriate try to create controversy around
what was meant to be an honest, intellectual exchange of
ideas. The U.S. Marines, like the Army, have served the
nation with valor and fidelity since the forming of the
nation. Mrs. Lister and the Army are proud to share a common
heritage.''
Mrs. Lister has accused others of extremism, recently in a
press interview labeling military advocate Elaine Donnelly an
``extremist.'' Mrs. Donnelly is chairman of the Center for
Military Readiness, which supports women in the military and
opposes combat roles for them.
``I don't like to see my name in the same sentence with
that word,'' Mrs. Donnelly said yesterday. ``It shows that
this person is very much out of step with the majority of
women, both civilian and military. . . . If she puts us in
the same group as the Marine Corps, we're in very good
shape.''
Mr. EVERETT. Mr. Speaker, as a veteran, a member of the National
Security Committee, and as an American, I am appalled at the callous
disrespect that Sarah Lister, the Assistant Security of the Army for
Manpower, displayed toward the U.S. Marine Corps when she referred to
them as a ``dangerous'' and ``extremist'' group during a recent forum.
This type of behavior is reprehensible from a high ranking official in
the Department of Defense. This is not only an affront to the men and
women serving in the Marine Corps, but it is offensive and demoralizing
to the nearly 1.5 million men and women in uniform that go in harms way
to defend the United States.
What type of message is sent to our young people serving in the
military when they hear that a high ranking official in the Pentagon is
quoted as saying that the Marines have a ``disconnection with
society.'' This administration has been less than fully supportive of
Armed Forces, and comments like these will undoubtedly have a further
negative impact on their morale.
While Secretary Lister has said she will be leaving her post shortly,
that's not good enough. Army Secretary Togo West should fire her now--
today. Doing less will disgrace those brave Americans who have served
and given their lives for this country. And as far as any talk of
Secretary Lister being a possible candidate for Army Secretary should
Secretary West leave the post--forget it.
On behalf of the U.S. Marine Corps and the entire military, I urge
the strong support of this resolution calling for Sara Lister to step
down; we cannot and will not tolerate this lack of respect from
civilian leaders.
Mr. YOUNG of Florida. Mr. Speaker, I rise in strong support of this
resolution expressing the sense of Congress that the Assistant
Secretary of the Army for Manpower and Reserve Affairs, Sara E. Lister,
should step down from her position following her derogatory remarks
yesterday about our U.S. Marine Corps.
Secretary Lister's remarks have enraged those of us who are proud of
the men and women who have served as marines. However, knowing the
organization as I do and the type of people who are marines, they are
not going to be hurt by her words.
The 222 year history of the United States Marine Corps speaks for
itself. From its first
[[Page H10909]]
battles of the Revolutionary War, through the bloody Pacific landings
during World War II, and from the campaigns in the snowy mountains of
Korea, to the steamy jungles of Vietnam, and the parched deserts of
Kuwait, the Marine Corps has an unquestionable tradition of serving our
Nation in the finest and bravest manner.
The U.S. Army, which was not well served by Secretary Lister's
comments, has its own distinguished record of valor and service to our
Nation. For those of us who just returned from Veterans Day programs
back home, our words are still fresh in our minds. We reminded all
Americans that if it were not for the brave service of the men and
women of the U.S. Marine Corps, Army, Navy, Air Force, and Coast Guard,
America would not be a free nation today.
Unfortunately, the comments of Secretary Lister are another example
of the lack of respect with which our armed services and those who
serve in uniform receive from some within this administration. As I
have said time and again, our all volunteer force deserves far better.
They at least deserve the respect of those who have been appointed by
the President to provide civilian leadership over our services.
This is the same administration that has demonstrated a cavalier
willingness to send our troops into harms way on a moments notice to
make a bold statement or accentuate its foreign policy. These
deployments throughout the world and with increasing regularity are
ordered with little regard for our national interest or the cost of
such deployments.
Mr. Speaker, there are many ironies about Secretary Lister's
comments. It is ironic that she made them just 2 days after the Marines
celebrated another birthday and just 1 day after we as a nation honored
those who have served our Nation in the uniform of the U.S. Marine
Corps and all the services. Perhaps most ironic, though, is that the
battles the Marine Corps have fought and won have been those to protect
our Nation's most treasured freedoms and liberties. And there is no
more basic American freedom than the freedom of speech. Yet, the
President and our civilian leadership at the Pentagon cannot allow an
appointee to continue to serve after showing such grave disrespect for
every marine who has ever served in uniform.
When the President gives the order to ``Send in the Marines'', no one
questions their character then. History has established that they are
the force we turn to as a nation to be first on the scene, first to
fight, and first to win.
Some of our Nation's greatest Army generals, who unlike Secretary
Lister have seen marines in action, have acknowledged the spirit of our
marines who have fought shoulder to shoulder with their brothers in the
Army. Gen. John Pershing, during World War I, Gen. Douglas MacArthur,
during the Korean conflict, and Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf, during
Operation Desert Storm all agreed with MacArthur's comments from the
outskirts of Seoul in 1950, that ``there is not a finer fighting
organization in the world'' than the U.S. Marines.
Mr. Speaker, the marines who stand watch tonight on lonely outposts
throughout the world, and those who are in training for their next
mission wherever and whenever it may be, probably have not even heard
about Secretary Lister's remarks. All they know is that they have
chosen to wear the uniform of a U.S. Marine to defend and protect our
great Nation. May their service and sacrifice stand as the greatest
testament, making all other words ring hollow.
Semper Fidelis.
The SPEAKER pro tempore (Mr. Blunt). The question is on the motion
offered by the gentleman from New York (Mr. Solomon) that the House
suspend the rules and agree to the concurrent resolution, H. Con. Res.
197.
The question was taken; and (two-thirds having voted in favor
thereof) the rules were suspended and the concurrent resolution was
agreed to.
A motion to reconsider was laid on the table.
____________________