[Congressional Record Volume 143, Number 160 (Thursday, November 13, 1997)]
[House]
[Pages H10903-H10909]
From the Congressional Record Online through the Government Publishing Office [www.gpo.gov]




    CALLING FOR RESIGNATION OR REMOVAL FROM OFFICE OF SARA LISTER, 
                    ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF THE ARMY

  Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I move to suspend the rules and agree to 
the concurrent resolution (H. Con. Res. 197) calling for the 
resignation or removal from office of Sara E. Lister, Assistant 
Secretary of the Army for Manpower and Reserve Affairs.
  The Clerk read as follows:

                            H. Con. Res. 197

       Whereas Sara E. Lister, Assistant Secretary of the Army for 
     Manpower and Reserve Affairs, on October 26, 1997, at a 
     public conference held in Baltimore, Maryland, stated that 
     ``The Marines are extremists.'';
       Whereas such a characterization denigrates 222 years of 
     sacrifice and dedication to the Nation by the Marine Corps 
     and dishonors the hundreds of thousands of Marines whose 
     blood has been shed in the name of freedom;
       Whereas citizens from all walks of life have donned the 
     Marine Corps uniform and gone to war to defend the Nation, 
     many never to return;

[[Page H10904]]

       Whereas the young people of America join the Marine Corps 
     to be challenged, to be held to high standards, and to be 
     part of something bigger than themselves;
       Whereas a characterization of the Marines as 
     ``extremists'', especially when made by a senior military 
     department official with responsibility for military 
     personnel policy, has the potential to have an 
     extraordinarily detrimental effect on morale, recruitment, 
     and retention not just for the Marine Corps but for all 
     branches of the Armed Forces;
       Whereas Marines and Army soldiers have fought and died side 
     by side time and again in defense of the Nation;
       Whereas the values of honor, courage, and commitment 
     embodied by the Marine Corps are not extreme: and
       Whereas to describe the Marines as ``extremists'' violates 
     all rules of propriety and does not reflect the views of the 
     American people: Now, therefore, be it
       Resolved by the House of Representatives (the Senate 
     concurring), That (1) Sara E. Lister, Assistant Secretary of 
     the Army for Manpower and Reserve Affairs, should immediately 
     resign from office, and (2) if she does not so resign, the 
     President should remove her from office.
  The SPEAKER pro tempore. Pursuant to the rule, the gentleman from New 
York [Mr. Solomon] and the gentleman from Missouri [Mr. Skelton] each 
will control 20 minutes.
  The Chair recognizes the gentleman from New York [Mr. Solomon].
  Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I yield myself such time as I may consume. 
Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak in support of this resolution I have 
brought before the House along with the gentleman from Pennsylvania 
[Mr. McHale] my very good friend and I am sorry to see retiring fellow 
Marine. He is a great American. He was a great Marine. He was a great 
Congressman.
  Sadly, Mr. Speaker, this is a very grim and unfortunate situation 
which has raised the ire of myself and countless others from all walks 
of life and particularly those who have served proudly in the military 
of all branches but particularly the Marine Corps. I am referring to 
comments made by a high-ranking official of our Defense Department who 
has been confirmed by the other body to support and defend the 
Constitution of the United States in her capacity as Assistant 
Secretary of the Army. Her comments have greatly insulted the United 
States Marine Corps and they have shattered her ability to effectively 
do her job as someone in charge of military personnel and reservists in 
the U.S. Army.
  Ms. Lister's comments characterizing the Marine Corps as 
``extremists'' is beneath contempt. I ask you to ask Captain O'Grady. 
Do you remember him? Who rescued him? The Marines. Ask him if he thinks 
they were extremists.
  No amount of spin and dissembling can explain her comments. They are 
simply arrogant, they are wrong and entirely out of line. Attempts by 
Ms. Lister to try and explain away her blatant attack on this 
distinguished branch of the military by saying that her comments were 
taken out of context does not constitute an apology, Mr. Speaker. In 
fact, Mr. Speaker, such quibbling and backpedaling is not an apology 
and is just a further insult to all of us who have worn the uniform of 
our country, especially those of us that served in the Marine Corps. To 
leave someone in this position within our Defense Department at this 
point would be nothing more than irresponsible.
  As the United States continues to face potential combat actions in 
places like Iraq, and it could happen tomorrow, and have troops serving 
in dangerous deployments all around the world, Ms. Lister does not 
deserve to be in a position of special trust and of confidence within 
the Pentagon. The fact that she would make these comments publicly to a 
large group is just again irresponsible. Her statements are 
symptomatic, I believe, of a political correctness of the worst kind 
that is permeating the U.S. military. They were intemperate and if 
allowed to stand would constitute a major step down this slippery slope 
towards a military that is not prepared to do its job.
  Mr. Speaker, take my word for it. We are treading on very dangerous 
territory here. If we do not take a strong stand now and demand the 
removal from office of Ms. Lister and those who share her opinions, we 
could seriously compromise our combat readiness and effectiveness. If 
the battle for the soul and the fighting spirit of all members of the 
Armed Forces is to be won, it has to be won by dismissing from 
leadership anyone who would make such irresponsible statements like 
this.

                              {time}  1730

  Mr. Speaker, I reserve the balance of my time.
  Mr. SKELTON. Mr. Speaker, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
  Missourian Mark Twain once said that a person should live so that if 
someone says something bad about him, no one would believe it. That is 
the way I think the U.S. Marine Corps finds themselves today. I do not 
think anyone can say anything bad about the Marine Corps that would be 
believed. It is an honorable, wonderful part of our national defense.
  But I think we should pause and take a deep breath on this matter, 
Mr. Speaker, and I am sure that this resolution will pass, but let us 
take a quick gander at the letter that Sara E. Lister, assistant 
secretary of the Army for manpower and reserve affairs, wrote to 
General C.C. Krulak, the Commandant of the Marine Corps. This is a 
letter of apology, and I will put it in toto in the Record, but let me 
read it and share with this body some words therefrom.
  ``Dear General Krulak: This letter is in reference to a quotation 
attributed to me during a panel discussion sponsored by the U.S. 
Military and Post-Cold War Society Project of the John M. Olin 
Institute for Strategic Studies, Harvard University.
  ``I apologize to the Marine Corps and all current and former Marines 
for my remarks. It is unfortunate that my remarks were taken out of 
context. The issue under consideration was in relationship between 
civilian military segments of our society. In that context, we were 
asked to comment upon 14 scholarly papers discussing various aspects of 
that topic. I discussed several of the papers, including an interesting 
piece which was focused on the Marine Corps as an example of possible 
disconnects between society and the military. My point, ineptly put, 
was that all the services had different relationships with civilian 
society based in part on their culture, the size of their force, and 
their mission. My use of the word ``extremism'' was inappropriate and 
wrong.
  ``I regret that the use of this term during an academic discussion 
has generated a controversy that does not represent my views or those 
of the Army. I am well aware of the close and mutually supportive 
relationship between the Army and Marine Corps, both in war and in 
peace.
  ``Again, my remarks were not intended to denigrate the Marine Corps 
in any way. It is unfortunate that they were misplaced. The Marine 
Corps has a proud and honorable tradition of service to our country. 
Sincerely, Sarah E. Lister, Assistant Secretary of the Army.''
  I will put this in the Record, and I read it for the purpose to show 
that Sara Lister has done her best in her position as an individual to 
express her regret and apologize, and I feel certain, Mr. Speaker, that 
the Commandant of the Marine Corps will accept this apology and move 
on.
  Mr. Speaker, I have spent a great deal of my efforts within the Armed 
Services Committee, now the Committee on National Security, working 
with the various services, urging them, through legislation and 
discussion, to create a joint atmosphere of working with each other so 
that the Marines work with the Army, the Navy works with the Air Force, 
and all of the different variations thereof.
  This is a total force, and it is unfortunate that Ms. Lister's 
comments created this issue, and I hope that as a result of this 
discussion here on the floor we can put this behind us and be proud of 
our Marine Corps, be proud of our Army, be proud of our Navy, be proud 
of our Air Force, and urge them to continue to do the wonderful work 
that they do in protecting freedom and the interests of our country.
  It is with this in mind that I make these comments, and hopefully we 
can, Mr. Speaker, put this issue behind us and let it be water going on 
down the river.
  The letter in its entirety is as follows:

         Department of the Army, Office of the Assistant 
           Secretary, Manpower and Reserve Affairs,
                                Washington, DC, November 13, 1997.
     Gen. C. C. Krulak,
     Commandant of the Marine Corps,
     Washington, DC.
       Dear General Krulak: This letter is in reference to a 
     quotation attributed to me

[[Page H10905]]

     during a panel discussion sponsored by the U.S. Military and 
     Post-Cold War Society Project of the John M. Olin Institute 
     for Strategic Studies (Harvard University).
       I apologize to the Marine Corps and all current and former 
     Marines for my remarks. It is unfortunate that my remarks 
     were taken out of context. The issue under consideration was 
     the relationship between civilian and military segments of 
     our society; in that context, we were asked to comment upon 
     14 scholarly papers discussing various aspects of that topic. 
     I discussed several of the papers, including an interesting 
     piece which was focused on the Marine Corps as an example of 
     possible disconnects between society and the military. My 
     point--ineptly put--was that all the services had different 
     relationships with civilian society, based in part on their 
     culture, the size of their force and their mission. My use of 
     the word ``extremism'' was inappropriate and wrong.
       I regret that the use of this term during an academic 
     discussion has generated a controversy that does not 
     represent my views or those of the Army. I am well aware of 
     the close and mutually supportive relationship between the 
     Army and the Marine Corps, both in war and in peace.
       Again, my remarks were not intended to denigrate the Marine 
     Corps in any way. It is unfortunate that they were 
     misinterpreted. The Marine Corps has a proud and honorable 
     tradition of service to our country.
           Sincerely,
                                                   Sara E. Lister,
                                  Assistant Secretary of the Army.

  Mr. SKELTON. Mr. Speaker, I yield 3 minutes to the gentleman from 
Pennsylvania [Mr. McHale].
  Mr. McHALE. Mr. Speaker, I thank the gentleman from Missouri for 
yielding this time to me.
  I have to tell my colleagues, Mr. Speaker, that when I read the words 
of Assistant Secretary Lister in the Washington Times this morning, I 
was both stunned and dismayed. Her comments were needlessly 
embarrassing to one of our Nation's great military services, the United 
States Army.
  As I read her comments, I realized that professional rivalry between 
the services is perhaps inevitable, even healthy. However, the comments 
that were attributed, I think accurately, to Assistant Secretary Lister 
were irresponsibly caustic. They were not taken out of context, they 
were not misinterpreted, they were simply wrong. Unfortunately for 
Assistant Secretary Lister, she was simultaneously articulate and 
foolish.
  By contrast, Mr. Speaker, just the other day, on November 10, the 
United States Marine Corps celebrated its 222d birthday. At that 
celebration and by his presence, showing what I believe was the kind of 
respect that the services owed to one another, was the Chief of Staff 
of the Army, General Reimer. At that memorial service, where several 
thousand Marines had gathered, one Army general in uniform sat quietly 
in tribute to a brother service.
  I would certainly hope that on all occasions senior officials in 
uniform and in civilian clothes from the United States Marine Corps 
would pay equal tribute to the United States Army. Assistant Secretary 
Lister is entitled to her opinion, and if she were a private citizen 
and not the Assistant Secretary of the Army, I do not believe this 
issue would be brought before the House today. But she spoke in an 
official capacity and should be held responsible in that capacity.
  In my view, Mr. Speaker, Assistant Secretary Lister should 
immediately and unequivocally, unlike the statement read by the 
gentleman from Missouri, unequivocally rescind her statements, 
apologizing appropriately, or she may, in the alternative, defend her 
judgment and then retire to private life. No senior official holding 
her views, absent a blunt apology, should remain in a policy-making 
position within the Department of Defense.
  If I could deliver a bottom line, Mr. Speaker, it would be this: 
Contrary to the outrageous rhetoric inappropriately used by Assistant 
Secretary Lister, the very best people I have ever met have been called 
lance corporal in the United States Marine Corps. I rise therefore in 
strong support of the Solomon resolution.
  Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
  Mr. Speaker, I correct the gentleman, it is the Solomon-McHale 
resolution.
  Just to respond, Mr. Speaker, because my very good friend, the 
gentleman from Missouri [Mr. Skelton], who is one of the most 
distinguished and respected Members of this body, mentioned that Ms. 
Sara Lister was speaking as an individual. Here is the program, and she 
is listed as the Honorable Sara Lister, Department of the Army. She 
spoke in an official capacity, and I am going to get a copy of the 
tape, and I want every one of my colleagues to listen to that tape, and 
then they will share my view completely.
  Mr. Speaker, I yield 3 minutes to the very distinguished gentleman 
from Indiana [Mr. Buyer].
  Mr. BUYER. Mr. Speaker, I compliment the gentleman from New York [Mr. 
Solomon] for bringing this legislation and my good friend and 
colleague, lieutenant colonel in the Reserves, the gentleman from 
Pennsylvania [Mr. McHale].
  I also have been a very good listener of my friend, the gentleman 
from Missouri [Mr. Skelton], and I agree with him, it is always moments 
to take a deep breath and not act on emotion, and I always follow that 
advice of my colleague. But this is also a comment that was made in 
official capacity with a tongue-in-cheek apology.
  These comments were not taken out of context. As a matter of fact, I 
would respect Sara Lister even more if she had stood her ground and 
said, I said it, I mean it, that is how I have always felt. That is not 
what she is saying.
  Now let me share something else. Over the past year, in dealing with 
the issues on gender and race in the United States military, my 
colleagues, see, I do not separate slanderous comments from one versus 
the other. If someone makes a slanderous comment on race, sure enough, 
whether it is their opinion, they will be called before immediately. 
Well, if someone makes a slanderous remark in gender or in reference to 
some other institutions, this is pretty insulting.
  I strongly support this resolution and call for the immediate 
resignation of the Army Assistant Secretary Sara Lister. I believe it 
is imperative for our military leaders to fully respect and earn the 
respect of the men and women who are willing to make the ultimate 
sacrifice to protect and defend our country. How sad that, as the rest 
of the Department of Defense is working so diligently to advance the 
notion of joint operations, the Army's Assistant Secretary for Manpower 
and Reserve Affairs would spew such a divisive statement in a public 
forum with regard to her demeaning comments of the Marine Corps. These 
comments show a total lack of understanding for the unique mission and 
tremendous value system of the Marine Corps as well as that of the 
United States Army of which she leads.
  I fail to understand how the values of honor, courage, commitment can 
be considered extremist and a little dangerous. Our Nation should be 
proud of the commitment each of our military services makes in 
instilling a strong sense of values into men and women who serve, 
something that, unfortunately, is missing in society today.
  How sad, when the uniformed leadership in the Army is leading 
initiatives to establish joint exercise forces to optimize the 
synergistic abilities of the Nation's forces, that the chief personnel 
official of the United States Army would make such a blatant, albeit 
sophomoric, attack on the Army's partner in land battle.
  How sad, when the rest of the Pentagon struggles in concert to 
address the future challenges of a largely undefined world stage, that 
such a key figure in the Army's hierarchy would devote her time on a 
stage provided by Harvard's Olin Institute of Strategic Studies to make 
such an unjustified, demeaning statement against the honored component 
of the Nation's defense.
  How sad that as a panel member in the forum dedicated to civil/
military relations, Ms. Lister so completely justified in growing the 
perception of a widening schism between the military and the liberal 
element of the social elite.
  The saddest of all is how sad anyone is reading the Washington Times 
headline, quote, ``Top Army Woman: Marines extremist,'' might think 
even for a moment that this was the top woman in the Army. That brings 
disservice upon many of the men and particularly the women who serve in 
the military today.
  I strongly urge the President and the Secretary of Defense to fully 
review her comments to determine whether

[[Page H10906]]

they are consistent with the administration's views of the 
contributions to the military services. More importantly, before they 
consider Ms. Lister as a candidate for the Secretary of the Army, the 
President and the Secretary of Defense must decide whether her comments 
reflect the proper level of respect for our military members necessary 
to be an effective civilian leader and to achieve the credibility of 
the military leadership for our country to continue to field the best 
fighting force.
  It is critical for the service secretaries and the service chiefs to 
be able to work together effectively. It is also critical that the 
civilian leaders in the military understand and respect the unique 
missions and contributions of each of the military services.
  I urge my colleague to support the Solomon-McHale resolution and to 
send a strong signal that this country's Marine Corps as well as each 
of the other services, that Congress does appreciate and respect their 
dedicated service despite Sarah Lister's demeaning remarks.
  Mr. SKELTON. I yield 3 minutes to the gentleman from Pennsylvania 
[Mr. Murtha].
  Mr. MURTHA. Mr. Speaker, let me join the Members with their concern 
about what the Assistant Secretary said, but let me also say I just 
talked to her, and she says that she was taken completely out of 
context. I think we should give her an opportunity to appear before the 
committee and let her have her say.
  Now she is in the process. She has already resigned. She is in the 
process of leaving the job. She resigned several months ago, and it 
just seems to me that, as terrible as what was reported that she said, 
she should have an opportunity to say to a committee what she said, and 
give her an opportunity to explain.
  For instance, it was recorded in the press that she is for women in 
combat. She says she denies that, she is not for women in combat, and 
many of the things that she says have been reported are inaccurate.

                              {time}  1745

  So it just seems that for us to take precipitous action on something 
like this, without giving her an opportunity, is unfair to her, whether 
you agree with her philosophically or not. I certainly do not know 
enough about what she said or what her position is to be able to judge 
whether she is right or not, but it seems before we rush to 
condemnation, that we should give her an opportunity to appear before a 
committee and have her say about these comments she has made.
  She is shattered by what has happened. She has the highest regard for 
the Marine Corps. She says she started her career working closely with 
the Marine Corps, and everything she told me personally, just a few 
minutes ago on the phone, was that she has the highest regard, and she 
feels absolutely devastated that these comments she made were, as she 
says, taken out of context.
  Now, whether they were or not, I do not know. But I do know I think 
that we should give her an opportunity to come before a committee and 
explain what she said, what the circumstances were, and exactly what 
she meant by these comments.
  Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Chairman, who I have such a high regard 
for, and he and I have served on so many committees, and he is a 
recipient of the Iron Mike Award, but if he would not consider 
allowing, perhaps allowing this go to committee, and allow the 
committee to take this up and discuss it with her before we rush to a 
vote on this very delicate situation, which could chastise the woman 
who is serving this position, maybe prematurely and unfairly, possibly.
  I do not know. I am not judging. I am just asking that we might be 
able to do something here that would be a little less onerous and 
perhaps give her an opportunity to have her say.
  Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
  Mr. Speaker, I have great respect for the gentleman from Pennsylvania 
[Mr. Murtha]. He is one of the finest Members of this body. I want him 
to go and listen to the tape, and then make the same speech he just 
made. He will change his mind.
  This is what she said: ``The Marines are extremists. Wherever you 
have extremists, you have got some risk of total disconnection with 
society, and that is a little dangerous.''
  Then she goes on and she cites, ``The Marine Corps is, you know, they 
have all these checkerboard fancy uniforms and stuff.''
  What does she mean by that ``checkerboard,'' my good friend? You know 
what she means. She means the medals the Marines are wearing. It is the 
only checkerboard on a uniform.
  Mr. MURTHA. Mr. Speaker, will the gentleman yield for a comment on 
the uniform?
  Mr. SOLOMON. I yield 1 minute to my friend, the gentleman from 
Pennsylvania [Mr. Murtha].
  Mr. MURTHA. She says that she was not the one that made the comment 
about the uniform. She says absolutely it was the woman who was on the 
panel, and she did not say one word about the uniform.
  That is what I am saying, there was some confusion. That is what she 
said. Now, I can only tell you what her comments were.
  Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I will have a copy of the tape on the 
gentleman's desk tomorrow.
  Mr. Speaker, I yield 2 minutes to the gentleman from California [Mr. 
Cunningham].
  Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Mr. Speaker, there are not two more Members I respect 
more than the gentleman from Missouri [Mr. Skelton] and the gentleman 
from Pennsylvania [Mr. Murtha].
  I have not heard the tape. I will listen to it tonight, if I can. If 
that is the case, then, yes, she should have her day. But the problem 
is the day will be 2 or 3 months from now, when all this issue is dead.
  Joe Paterno, one of my favorite coaches at Penn State, told a story 
when I was in a football clinic. He said his dad was in the Army and 
hated the Marine Corps. He said they were a bunch of peacocks.
  You can imagine Joe Paterno's amazement and the father's amazement 
and this old Italian family when his oldest brother came up and said he 
was going to join the Marine Corps. The father in his old way said, 
``Go off, my son, and become a peacock.'' And he did. This is a son 
that never spoke back to his father a day in his life in that old 
Italian family.
  The day he came back after boot camp in his finery, his father said, 
``Look, here is that peacock.'' And a man that had never spoken an ill 
word to his Italian father in his life put his finger in his chest and 
says, ``Don't you ever say anything bad about the United States Marine 
Corps. It can lick any 10 Army regiments.'' The gentleman from 
California [Mr. Hunter] would disagree with that.
  But his whole idea was how do you collectively take a mind and mold 
it into a fighting machine with respect, and he took that same esprit 
de corps and turned it into the Penn State football team. And he talks 
about tradition.
  What this gentlelady has just done is violate that tradition, and we 
cannot accept that kind of character, or lack of character, in the 
leadership of the Department of Defense. We can neither accept nor 
tolerate it. And, in my opinion, if the allegations are true, this 
gentlelady has no place, because the position of leadership in the 
military is not just a position, it is a guidepost for men and women in 
all the services.
  Mr. SKELTON. Mr. Speaker, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
  Mr. Speaker, I can only hope that when the dust settles out of all of 
this, that wonderful United States Marine Corps, that great Army that 
we have, as well as the outstanding Navy and the Air Force that we 
have, will continue to work together in a joint atmosphere without 
rancor, without grudges, and let this be water that goes down the 
river.
  Mr. Speaker, I yield back the balance of my time.
  Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I yield 3 minutes to the gentleman from 
Maryland [Mr. Gilchrest], a very distinguished former Marine. He is a 
very quiet guy, but I think you will like what he has to say. He is a 
very serious Member of this body.
  Mr. GILCHREST. Mr. Speaker, I thank the gentleman from New York for 
yielding. I would like to echo the words of my good friend and 
colleague,

[[Page H10907]]

the gentleman from Missouri [Mr. Skelton], that we need to release our 
feeling of anger and rancor and let this go down the stream and flow 
out into the gentle waters.
  We are all Americans, whether it is the Army, the Navy, the Marine 
Corps, the Air Force, the Coast Guard, the Merchant Marine. Whoever it 
is, we all serve this country in a way that we feel is right.
  We are reacting now to some words that we do not agree with. But the 
positive part of those words, which I think were ill-spoken, the 
positive part of those words, which I think we all should not agree 
with, is that we are here to discuss that we as Americans in the 
military that serve our country do so in the proudest condition that we 
can. We believe in this country and we believe in freedom, so those in 
the military service are going to lay down their lives, which is the 
best gift that they can give, for their country. We consistently give 
words of encouragement to those soldiers, sailors and marines in lonely 
areas around the country.
  I would just like to relay a very short story when I was in the 
service as a young marine with other young Marines, to give some sense 
about the military service.
  Whenever we would cross this rice paddy in Vietnam, we would be shot 
at by a sniper. So we decided one day to send across this rice paddy 
some decoy marines, and then some of us would go around and find out 
where the sniper was.
  We did that. The decoys went across the rice paddy. We went around, 
and from the ``hootch'' grass hut we could see some firing. We went 
into the grass hut, and we found a very old man with one leg, an old 
woman, about in their nineties, and a little girl about 10.
  Well, we started to remove the old man. We were going to take him in 
because we assumed he was the sniper. The old woman sat on a little 
stump and started to cry. The little girl began screaming and pulling 
at our uniforms, desperate not to let this old man, maybe her great 
grandfather, go. She thought she would never see him again.
  So we young marines, trained for combat, stopped. We looked into the 
eyes of the old man, and the woman stopped crying, in desperate fear, 
wondering what we were going to do next. We looked into the eyes of the 
old man, and I can still see his eyes. He had for an instant striking 
fear in his eyes, not knowing what we were going to do. And then the 
fear turned to curiosity, the curiosity turned to friendship, and we 
looked at this old man as a human being.
  We simply let him go, and we walked away. We were never shot at again 
when we crossed that rice paddy. But we young marines, trained for 
desperate combat, found in this man a sense of common humanity, and 
that is what all the military services are about.
  Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I yield 3 minutes to the gentleman from 
Texas [Mr. Sam Johnson], someone I think we can all certainly believe. 
He was a prisoner of war for 6 years and 10 months, and who in the 
world could ever live through that, but the gentleman from Texas did.
  (Mr. SAM JOHNSON of Texas asked and was given permission to revise 
and extend his remarks.)
  Mr. SAM JOHNSON of Texas. Mr. Speaker, I would say to the gentleman 
from Missouri [Mr. Skelton], I appreciate his position, I really do. I 
just cannot believe that we as a country have sunk to this level, where 
we have a high-level Clinton administration official referring to a 
branch of our military, in this case the Marine Corps, as being 
``extremist'' and ``dangerous to society.'' The testimony you just 
heard is she does not say that. According to Mr. Solomon, this is all 
on tape. It is her words. It is not taken out of context.
  These types of comments are not just unacceptable, but they are 
false, and a telling sign of disdain for the military by this 
administration. And no response, you might notice no response has been 
given by the Secretary of the Army, and this lady, even though it has 
been said she has resigned or is intending to resign, is being 
considered for the post of Secretary of the Army. It is unbelievable.
  How many times have we seen in a country like ours bravery and 
ultimate sacrifice by one of our Armed Services?
  I was in the Air Force, but the United States Marines showed their 
colors in the Pacific during World War II; in Korea, where I fought at 
the Chosin Reservoir; in Vietnam, where I was a POW in Khe Sahn; or the 
numerous evacuations of our citizens who have been endangered for no 
other reason than just being an American. Our Marines have been there.
  The Secretary, it has been said, went on to mock the Marine uniform. 
``They have all got on these checkerboard fancy uniforms, but the Army 
is sort of muddy boots on the ground.''
  Do you know that the Marines are our ceremonial troops? Do you think 
that our Embassies around the world would love to have muddy boots 
guarding our Embassies in a ceremonial fashion? I do not think so.
  I suggest the Secretary ask Captain Scott O'Grady what his opinion is 
of the Marine uniforms of those men who pulled him out of Bosnia, and 
what they were wearing. I think she would be enlightened, to say the 
least.
  I am not here to enlighten the Secretary, or our Congress. I just 
think that that conduct is inexcusable and should result in immediate 
dismissal. The sacrifices that Marines, and, for that matter, all our 
Armed Forces, have made should not be subject to administration 
comments that are childish and dishonorable.
  I believe Secretary Lister must go, and I hope, Mr. President, that 
you are listening.
  Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I yield such time as he may consume to the 
gentleman from Alabama [Mr. Bachus].
  (Mr. BACHUS asked and was given permission to revise and extend his 
remarks.)
  Mr. BACHUS. Mr. Speaker, I rise in support of this resolution. I do 
it on behalf of not only myself, but my oldest son, who I am proud to 
say serves in the U.S. Marines, and his family, my other four children 
and their mother.
  Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I yield 1 minute to my very good friend, 
the gentleman from Florida [Mr. Scarborough]. I wish I had more time to 
give him. We are just out of time.
  Mr. SCARBOROUGH. Mr. Speaker, this is truly a very bad time for us. I 
wish Ms. Lister, instead of going to this Harvard symposium, would have 
been where I was a week ago and seen the 222nd birthday of the United 
States Marine Corps, and hear the commandant talk about the legend of 
Bella Wood in World War I, or talk about what happened at Iwo Jima in 
World War II, or talk about Khe Sahn or Inchon, or what the Marines did 
there, or look at what happened in Lebanon in 1980s.
  What gets me is this same administration that has shown contempt for 
readiness in the name of political correctness in the 1990s may have 
contempt for the Marines, may be elitist and have elitist attitudes, 
but every time there is a problem halfway across the world, they have 
no problem picking up the phone and dialing their 911, and that 
continues to be and has always been, for 222 years, the United States 
Marine Corps.

                              {time}  1800

  Let us forget the spin control, let us forget the apologies. They are 
too late. She must resign and leave her position at once.
  Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I yield 1 minute to my very good friend, 
the gentleman from California [Mr. Packard].
  (Mr. PACKARD asked and was given permission to revise and extend his 
remarks.)
  Mr. PACKARD. Mr. Speaker, I am personally incensed at these comments. 
My father was a civilian and fought with the Marines on Wake Island and 
spent 4 and a half years in a Japanese prison camp with those Marines. 
I represent the largest Marine base in the United States, Camp 
Pendleton. It is in the heart of my district. Fifty-five thousand 
Marines are incensed at what this lady has said. Calling them 
dangerous, calling them extremists. That is unconscionable, Mr. 
Speaker, and she should be relieved of her responsibilities 
immediately.
  Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I yield 1 minute to the gentleman from 
California [Mr. Hunter], an outstanding member of this body.
  Mr. HUNTER. Mr. Speaker, I thank the gentleman for yielding me this 
time.

[[Page H10908]]

  I think the interesting point of this is that the very point of 
criticism that the Clinton administration official made about the 
Marine Corps is really in essence their strength. The Marine Corps is a 
service that did not bend to the winds of political correctness when 
this mixed gender training was requested by the Clinton administration. 
Today, my service, the U.S. Army, has representatives around the 
country in courts-martial trying to explain what happened to young 
women who were injected into basic training with young men in very 
close quarters, and all of the tragedies that resulted from that. The 
Marine Corps is one service that perhaps, more than all of the others, 
has kept its tradition of duty, honor and country, and Chuck Krulak, 
the Commandant, is one of the very, very best.
  So I think we will come out of this with a stronger Marine Corps, 
more adherence to tradition, and a stronger America.
  Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, to close for our side, I yield the balance 
of our time to the distinguished gentleman from South Carolina [Mr. 
Spence], chairman of the Committee on National Security, an outstanding 
American.
  (Mr. SPENCE asked and was given permission to revise and extend his 
remarks and include extraneous material in the Record.)
  Mr. SPENCE. Mr. Speaker, I thank the gentleman for yielding me this 
time.
  Mr. Speaker, as a Navy veteran and the brother of a retired Marine, 
and on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of Marines, living and dead, 
who served this country over all these years, I am personally saddened 
to hear of the remarks attributed to Ms. Sara Lister relative to the 
Marine Corps.
  I cannot go into detail, I do not have enough time to make a speech 
on behalf of the Corps and in defense of the Corps, but I would like to 
just submit as part of my remarks an article which appeared in the 
Washington Times today which this quote comes from. Kate O'Beirne, the 
Washington editor of National Review magazine, appeared with Ms. Lister 
on the panel, and here is what she said:
  ``It is actually a slander at both the Marine Corps and the Army,'' 
she said in an interview. ``What attributes of the Marine Corps does 
she disrespect? Self-discipline? Courage? Patriotism? She believes 
these pose a danger to society and by implication she's grateful the 
Army doesn't share the Marine Corps attributes. Shocking.''

                 Top Army Woman: Marines ``Extremist''

                         (By Rowan Scarborough)

       Sara E. Lister, the Army's top personnel official and the 
     Pentagon's most ardent advocate of women in combat, in a 
     public forum called the Marines ``extremists'' and ``a little 
     dangerous.''
       Mrs. Lister, the assistant secretary of the Army for 
     manpower and reserve affairs, also belittled the Marine Corps 
     uniform.
       ``I think the Army is much more connected to society than 
     the Marines are,'' Mrs. Lister told an Oct. 26 seminar. ``The 
     Marines are extremists. Wherever you have extremist, you've 
     got some risks of total disconnection with society. And 
     that's a little dangerous.''
       In response to a query by The Washington Times, the Army 
     attempted last night to dampen a growing controversy that 
     clearly rankled top officers:
       ``The statement attributed to Mrs. Lister was taken out of 
     context. Her reference to the Marines and their relationship 
     to society would be more aptly described as `unique.' ''
       Gen. Charles Krulak, the Marine Corps commandant, issued a 
     statement last night at his quarters vigorously defending a 
     branch he has served 34 years.
       ``Assistant Secretary of the Army Sara Lister has been 
     quoted as characterizing the Marine Corps as `extremists,' '' 
     Gen. Krulak said. ``Such a depiction would summarily dismiss 
     222 years of sacrifice and dedication to the nation. It would 
     dishonor the hundreds of thousands of Marines whose blood has 
     been shed in the name of freedom.
       ``Citizens from all walks of life have donned the Marine 
     Corps uniform and gone to war to defend this nation, never to 
     return. Honor, courage and commitment are not extreme.''
       Mrs. Lister, a close adviser to Army Secretary Togo West, 
     made the remarks to a group of academics and military 
     personnel at a conference in Baltimore.
       According to a tape recording of the remarks, obtained by 
     The Times, Mrs. Lister, who was appointed by President 
     Clinton, also mocked the uniform of the Marine Corps.
       ``The Marine Corps is--you know they have all these 
     checkerboard fancy uniforms and stuff,'' she said. ``But the 
     Army is sort of muddy boots on the ground.''
       Said Gen. Krulak, ``I agree with Mrs. Lister's depiction of 
     the U.S. Army as `sort of muddy boots on the ground.' I need 
     not recount the times where the muddy boots of soldiers fell 
     alongside those of Marines as we fought side by side.''
       Kate O'Beirne, the Washington editor of National Review 
     magazine, appeared with Mrs. Lister on the panel, along with 
     retired Army Lt. Gen. Theodore Stroup. Mrs. O'Beirne, 
     according to the tape recording, told the conference, 
     sponsored by Harvard University's Olin Institute for 
     Strategic Studies, that she was ``shocked and incredulous'' 
     by Mrs. Lister's remarks.
       ``It is actually a slander at both the Marine Corps and the 
     Army,'' she said in an interview later. ``What attributes of 
     the Marine Corps does she disrespect? Self-discipline? 
     Courage? Patriotism? She believes these pose a danger to 
     society and by implication she's grateful the Army doesn't 
     share the Marine Corps attributes. Shocking.
       ``I just want to say something on behalf of the Marine 
     Corps. Unlike Secretary Lister, I don't see them as an 
     extremist organization nor do I fear them in any way. And I 
     find myself grateful for them most of the time.''
       Mrs. Lister's caustic comments are sure to revive criticism 
     within the military and among veterans groups that the 
     Clinton administration is staffed at the highest levels with 
     men and women with anti-military attitudes.
       Mr. Clinton was sharply criticized by veterans groups in 
     the 1992 campaign for remarks he made as young man trying to 
     avoid the Vietnam War draft, saying that he and his friends 
     held a ``loathing'' for the military, and shortly after 
     taking office he offended military ranks with an attempt to 
     lift long-standing policy barring known homosexuals in the 
     military.
       Mrs. Lister has said she will leave her post sometime this 
     year and was honored recently at a retirement party. Pentagon 
     sources say she may be a candidate for secretary of the Army 
     if Mr. West, as expected, is named to head the Department of 
     Veterans Affairs.

                           *   *   *   *   *

       The Army's statement defending Mrs. Lister went on to say 
     that ``it is inappropriate try to create controversy around 
     what was meant to be an honest, intellectual exchange of 
     ideas. The U.S. Marines, like the Army, have served the 
     nation with valor and fidelity since the forming of the 
     nation. Mrs. Lister and the Army are proud to share a common 
     heritage.''
       Mrs. Lister has accused others of extremism, recently in a 
     press interview labeling military advocate Elaine Donnelly an 
     ``extremist.'' Mrs. Donnelly is chairman of the Center for 
     Military Readiness, which supports women in the military and 
     opposes combat roles for them.
       ``I don't like to see my name in the same sentence with 
     that word,'' Mrs. Donnelly said yesterday. ``It shows that 
     this person is very much out of step with the majority of 
     women, both civilian and military. . . . If she puts us in 
     the same group as the Marine Corps, we're in very good 
     shape.''
  Mr. EVERETT. Mr. Speaker, as a veteran, a member of the National 
Security Committee, and as an American, I am appalled at the callous 
disrespect that Sarah Lister, the Assistant Security of the Army for 
Manpower, displayed toward the U.S. Marine Corps when she referred to 
them as a ``dangerous'' and ``extremist'' group during a recent forum. 
This type of behavior is reprehensible from a high ranking official in 
the Department of Defense. This is not only an affront to the men and 
women serving in the Marine Corps, but it is offensive and demoralizing 
to the nearly 1.5 million men and women in uniform that go in harms way 
to defend the United States.
  What type of message is sent to our young people serving in the 
military when they hear that a high ranking official in the Pentagon is 
quoted as saying that the Marines have a ``disconnection with 
society.'' This administration has been less than fully supportive of 
Armed Forces, and comments like these will undoubtedly have a further 
negative impact on their morale.
  While Secretary Lister has said she will be leaving her post shortly, 
that's not good enough. Army Secretary Togo West should fire her now--
today. Doing less will disgrace those brave Americans who have served 
and given their lives for this country. And as far as any talk of 
Secretary Lister being a possible candidate for Army Secretary should 
Secretary West leave the post--forget it.
  On behalf of the U.S. Marine Corps and the entire military, I urge 
the strong support of this resolution calling for Sara Lister to step 
down; we cannot and will not tolerate this lack of respect from 
civilian leaders.
  Mr. YOUNG of Florida. Mr. Speaker, I rise in strong support of this 
resolution expressing the sense of Congress that the Assistant 
Secretary of the Army for Manpower and Reserve Affairs, Sara E. Lister, 
should step down from her position following her derogatory remarks 
yesterday about our U.S. Marine Corps.
  Secretary Lister's remarks have enraged those of us who are proud of 
the men and women who have served as marines. However, knowing the 
organization as I do and the type of people who are marines, they are 
not going to be hurt by her words.
  The 222 year history of the United States Marine Corps speaks for 
itself. From its first

[[Page H10909]]

battles of the Revolutionary War, through the bloody Pacific landings 
during World War II, and from the campaigns in the snowy mountains of 
Korea, to the steamy jungles of Vietnam, and the parched deserts of 
Kuwait, the Marine Corps has an unquestionable tradition of serving our 
Nation in the finest and bravest manner.
  The U.S. Army, which was not well served by Secretary Lister's 
comments, has its own distinguished record of valor and service to our 
Nation. For those of us who just returned from Veterans Day programs 
back home, our words are still fresh in our minds. We reminded all 
Americans that if it were not for the brave service of the men and 
women of the U.S. Marine Corps, Army, Navy, Air Force, and Coast Guard, 
America would not be a free nation today.
  Unfortunately, the comments of Secretary Lister are another example 
of the lack of respect with which our armed services and those who 
serve in uniform receive from some within this administration. As I 
have said time and again, our all volunteer force deserves far better. 
They at least deserve the respect of those who have been appointed by 
the President to provide civilian leadership over our services.
  This is the same administration that has demonstrated a cavalier 
willingness to send our troops into harms way on a moments notice to 
make a bold statement or accentuate its foreign policy. These 
deployments throughout the world and with increasing regularity are 
ordered with little regard for our national interest or the cost of 
such deployments.
  Mr. Speaker, there are many ironies about Secretary Lister's 
comments. It is ironic that she made them just 2 days after the Marines 
celebrated another birthday and just 1 day after we as a nation honored 
those who have served our Nation in the uniform of the U.S. Marine 
Corps and all the services. Perhaps most ironic, though, is that the 
battles the Marine Corps have fought and won have been those to protect 
our Nation's most treasured freedoms and liberties. And there is no 
more basic American freedom than the freedom of speech. Yet, the 
President and our civilian leadership at the Pentagon cannot allow an 
appointee to continue to serve after showing such grave disrespect for 
every marine who has ever served in uniform.
  When the President gives the order to ``Send in the Marines'', no one 
questions their character then. History has established that they are 
the force we turn to as a nation to be first on the scene, first to 
fight, and first to win.
  Some of our Nation's greatest Army generals, who unlike Secretary 
Lister have seen marines in action, have acknowledged the spirit of our 
marines who have fought shoulder to shoulder with their brothers in the 
Army. Gen. John Pershing, during World War I, Gen. Douglas MacArthur, 
during the Korean conflict, and Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf, during 
Operation Desert Storm all agreed with MacArthur's comments from the 
outskirts of Seoul in 1950, that ``there is not a finer fighting 
organization in the world'' than the U.S. Marines.
  Mr. Speaker, the marines who stand watch tonight on lonely outposts 
throughout the world, and those who are in training for their next 
mission wherever and whenever it may be, probably have not even heard 
about Secretary Lister's remarks. All they know is that they have 
chosen to wear the uniform of a U.S. Marine to defend and protect our 
great Nation. May their service and sacrifice stand as the greatest 
testament, making all other words ring hollow.
  Semper Fidelis.
  The SPEAKER pro tempore (Mr. Blunt). The question is on the motion 
offered by the gentleman from New York (Mr. Solomon) that the House 
suspend the rules and agree to the concurrent resolution, H. Con. Res. 
197.
  The question was taken; and (two-thirds having voted in favor 
thereof) the rules were suspended and the concurrent resolution was 
agreed to.
  A motion to reconsider was laid on the table.

                          ____________________