[Congressional Record Volume 143, Number 160 (Thursday, November 13, 1997)]
[House]
[Pages H10870-H10873]
From the Congressional Record Online through the Government Publishing Office [www.gpo.gov]




 EXPRESSING SENSE OF HOUSE CONCERNING NEED FOR INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL 
                TRIBUNAL TO TRY MEMBERS OF IRAQI REGIME

  Mr. GILMAN. Madam Speaker, I move to suspend the rules and agree to 
the concurrent resolution (H. Con. Res. 137) expressing the sense of 
the House of Representatives concerning the urgent need for an 
international criminal tribunal to try members of the Iraqi regime for 
crimes against humanity.
  The Clerk read as follows:

                            H. Con. Res. 137

       Whereas the regime of Saddam Hussein has perpetrated a 
     litany of human rights abuses against the citizens of Iraq 
     and other peoples of the region, including summary and 
     arbitrary executions, torture, cruel and inhumane treatment, 
     arbitrary arrest and imprisonment, disappearances and the 
     repression of freedom of speech, thought, expression, 
     assembly and association;
       Whereas Saddam Hussein and his associates have 
     systematically attempted to destroy the Kurdish population in 
     Iraq through the use of chemical weapons against civilian 
     Kurds, the Anfal campaigns of 1987-1988 that resulted in the 
     disappearance of more than 182,000 persons and the 
     destruction of more than 4,000 villages, the placement of 
     more than ten million landmines in Iraqi Kurdistan, and the 
     continued ethnic cleansing of the city of Kirkuk;
       Whereas the Iraqi Government, under Saddam Hussein's 
     leadership, has repressed the Sunni tribes in western Iraq, 
     destroyed Assyro-Chaldean churches and villages, deported and 
     executed Turkomen, massacred Shi-ites, and destroyed the 
     ancient Marsh Arab civilization through a massive act of 
     ecocide;
       Whereas the status of more than six hundred Kuwaitis who 
     were taken prisoner during the Gulf War remain unknown and 
     the whereabouts of these persons are unaccounted for by the 
     Iraqi Government, Kuwait continues to be plagued by 
     unexploded landmines six years after the end of the Gulf War, 
     and the destruction of Kuwait by departing Iraqi troops has 
     yet to be redressed by the Iraqi Government;
       Whereas the Republic of Iraq is a signatory to the 
     Universal Declaration on Human Rights, the International 
     Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the Convention on the 
     Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide and other 
     human rights instruments, and the Geneva Convention on the 
     Treatment of Prisoners of War of August 12, 1949, and is 
     obligated to comply with these international agreements;
       Whereas Saddam Hussein and his regime have created an 
     environment of terror and fear within Iraq and throughout the 
     region through a concerted policy of violations of 
     international customary and conventional law; and
       Whereas the Congress is deeply disturbed by the continuing 
     gross violations of human rights by the Iraqi Government 
     under the direction and control of Saddam Hussein: Now, 
     therefore, be it
       Resolved by the House of Representatives (the Senate 
     concurring), That it is the sense of the House of 
     Representatives that--
       (1) the Congress--
       (A) deplores the Iraqi Government's pattern of gross 
     violation of human rights which has resulted in a pervasive 
     system of repression, sustained by the widespread use of 
     terror and intimidation;
       (B) condemns the Iraqi Government's repeated use of force 
     and weapons of mass destruction against its own citizens, as 
     well as neighboring states;
       (C) denounces the refusal of the Iraqi Government to comply 
     with international human rights instruments to which it is a 
     party and cooperate with international monitoring bodies and 
     compliance mechanisms, including accounting of missing 
     Kuwaiti prisoners; and
       (2) the President and the Secretary of State should--
       (A) endorse the formation of an international criminal 
     tribunal for the purpose of prosecuting Saddam Hussein and 
     all other Iraqi officials who are responsible for crimes 
     against humanity, including unlawful use of force, crimes 
     against the peace, crimes committed in contravention of the 
     Geneva Convention on POW's and the crime of genocide; and
       (B) work actively and urgently within the international 
     community for the adoption of a United Nations Security 
     Council resolution establishing an International Criminal 
     Court for Iraq.

  The SPEAKER pro tempore. Pursuant to the rule, the gentleman from New 
York [Mr. Gilman] and the gentleman from Florida [Mr. Hastings] each 
will control 20 minutes.
  The Chair recognizes the gentleman from New York [Mr. Gilman].
  Mr. GILMAN. Madam Speaker, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
  (Mr. GILMAN asked and was given permission to revise and extend his 
remarks.)


                             General Leave

  Mr. GILMAN. Madam Speaker, I ask unanimous consent that all Members 
may have 5 legislative days within which to revise and extend their 
remarks on this measure.
  The SPEAKER pro tempore. Is there objection to the request of the 
gentleman from New York?
  There was no objection.

                              {time}  1400

  Madam Speaker, the resolution before us today, House Concurrent 
Resolution 137, which I introduced, along with our colleague the 
gentleman from Illinois [Mr. Porter], cochairman of the Human Rights 
Caucus, expresses a sense of the House concerning urgent need for an 
international war crimes tribunal to try Saddam Hussein and members of 
his Iraqi regime for crimes against humanity.
  I want to thank the gentleman from Illinois [Mr. Porter] for his 
leadership on this important issue. The critical need for this measure 
is highlighted by the events taking place just as we speak. House 
Concurrent Resolution 137 notes that dictator Saddam Hussein has 
perpetrated a litany of human rights abuses against the citizens of 
Iraq, including arbitrary executions, torture, cruel and inhumane 
treatment, arbitrary arrest and imprisonment, and disappearances.
  Saddam Hussein has attempted to destroy the Kurdish population in 
Iraq through the use of chemical weapons. He has repressed Sunni tribes 
in western Iraq, destroyed Assyro-Chaldean churches and villages, 
executed Turkomen, and massacred Shiites. Saddam Hussein has also 
continued to commit ecocide against the ancient Marsh Arab 
civilization.
  Saddam Hussein's brutality is not limited only to his fellow Iraqis. 
We recall the dark days of the Gulf War, which witnessed Saddam's 
holding Kuwait and its innocent citizens hostage for so many months. 
The whereabouts of more than 600 Kuwaitis who were taken prisoner 
during the Gulf War still remains unknown and unaccounted for by the 
Iraqi Government.
  House Concurrent Resolution 137, therefore, expresses a sense of 
Congress deploring the Iraqi Government's pattern of gross violations 
of human rights and denounces Saddam's refusal to comply with 
international human rights documents to which Iraqi is signatory. This 
bill also endorses the creation of an international criminal tribunal 
to prosecute Saddam Hussein and his henchmen and urges the President 
and Secretary of State to work actively toward the adoption of a United 
Nations Security Council resolution establishing an international 
criminal court for Iraq.
  Accordingly, Mr. Speaker, I urge our colleagues' strong support for 
the adoption of House Concurrent Resolution 137.
  Mr. Speaker, I reserve the balance of my time.
  Mr. HASTINGS of Florida. Mr. Speaker, I yield myself such time as I 
may consume.
  Mr. Speaker, I commend the Chair and the gentleman from Illinois [Mr. 
Porter] for their efforts on this timely resolution. And I know that I 
speak for my colleagues, particularly the ranking member, the gentleman 
from Indiana [Mr. Hamilton], in indicating our feelings with reference 
to this particular resolution.
  We do not oppose this resolution. I join the chairman at this time in 
condemning Iraq's gross violation of human rights. Those who commit 
such crimes should be brought before an international criminal court, 
as this resolution correctly states. I do question, however, and 
several of us do, whether this resolution is likely to have much 
impact.
  The resolution calls for an international court to bring Saddam 
Hussein to justice. But this resolution does not tell us how we get 
from here to there. The chief concern that I wish to express is that 
this resolution will raise expectations, especially in Kuwait, that 
such an international court

[[Page H10871]]

will be created. But we do not, by our actions today, create a court or 
make it significantly more likely that such a court will be created.
  I do, however, strongly support the resolution. It urges the United 
States to work for a U.N. resolution creating an international criminal 
court for Iraq. I would hope that we would continue in a vigorous 
manner to urge the United Nations to do that.
  Mr. Speaker, I yield 3 minutes to the distinguished gentlewoman from 
Oregon [Ms. Furse].
  Ms. FURSE. Mr. Speaker, I thank the gentleman from Florida [Mr. 
Hastings] for yielding me the time.
  I rise in support of this bill. What I would like to say, though, is 
that every great human rights struggle has involved personal 
responsibility and sacrifice. Today, Mr. Speaker, a brave group of 
hunger strikers are highlighting the human rights issues posed by the 
Turkish Government against the Kurdish population, also the Kurdish 
population, you notice a connection with this bill, the Kurdish 
population and Kurdish elected officials.
  I would like to quote to my colleagues from a letter which was sent 
to President Clinton and signed by 153 Representatives which highlights 
the terrible situation of a Kurdish politician who was elected by her 
people and who is in prison for violating Kurdish law. All she did was 
speak out, as any Parliamentarian does. As I today speak out for human 
rights, she was speaking out.
  In our letter to Mr. Clinton we say, one of the charges against Mrs. 
Zana was her 1993 appearance, here in Washington, at the invitation of 
the U.S. Congress. We say, we find it outrageous that although she had 
been invited to participate, her activities led to her imprisonment. We 
actively today, Mr. Speaker, seek and call on the administration to 
look for the release of Leyla Zana and to look at the terrible 
situation of the Kurdish people in Turkey.
  I got a letter just the other day from our Representative to the 
United Nations, former Congressman Bill Richardson; and he said, Leyla 
Zana's case is one of four convictions which are being appealed to the 
European Human Rights Commission. Four of those convictions.
  Mr. Speaker, I say today that we must focus the light of the American 
conscience on those people who are standing today in solidarity with 
the Turkish citizens, whether they be in Iraq or Turkey. And especially 
I want to draw attention to those brave citizens who have decided to 
take their lives at stake, their own health, by standing with Mrs. Zana 
and other Kurdish officials who have been imprisoned in Turkey.
  I thank the chairman for allowing me to speak on this issue. This is 
an issue, just as the bill is an issue, of human rights violations to 
the Kurdish population. It is up to us, as Members of Congress and 
members of the greatest democracy in the world, to speak out when we 
see human rights violations, whether it be our friends or our enemies 
who are creating these violations.
  I thank the gentleman from Florida [Mr. Hastings] for letting me use 
this time, and I thank him for his great work for human rights, as also 
the chairman the gentleman from New York [Mr. Gilman], who have stood 
for human rights in this country, in this body. And together, I think 
that we will all join to try and get the release of these Turkish 
elected officials who are Kurdish and who are speaking for their own 
citizens.
  So, today, I join in solidarity with those hunger strikers. And I 
have heard them say, ``Oh, well, these are terrorists.'' I remember 
when Nelson Mandela in South Africa was termed a ``terrorist.'' A 
terrorist is also a freedom fighter. These people are seeking freedom 
for their people.
  Mr. GILMAN. Mr. Speaker, I yield 7 minutes to the gentleman from 
Illinois [Mr. Porter], the distinguished cochairman of the Human Rights 
Caucus.
  Mr. PORTER. Mr. Speaker, let me thank the able and distinguished 
chairman the gentleman from New York [Mr. Gilman] for yielding me this 
time, but more importantly, for bringing this very significant 
legislation to the floor today.
  In light of what is going on in Iraq at this moment, this could not 
be a more timely resolution. Once again, Saddam Hussein is showing his 
true colors as a ruthless dictator who will attempt to do anything to 
manipulate his way out of sanctions and weapons monitoring through 
whatever means he can.
  Mr. Speaker, I grew up in an era characterized, unfortunately, by 
ruthless dictators--Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin--individuals who 
committed crimes of unspeakable horror against their own people, 
against their minorities. And the regime in Iraq is identical to the 
types that were run in Nazi Germany, in Fascist Italy, and in Communist 
Soviet Union under Stalin.
  We must stop Saddam Hussein now. We must isolate him and make certain 
that the world understands the nature of his ruthless regime. We must 
make certain that Saddam Hussein and every one of his henchmen are 
indicted as war criminals and individuals who commit crimes against 
humanity.
  I am pleased to be an original cosponsor of this legislation to bring 
him to justice for the crimes he has committed against the Iraqi people 
and against the citizens of other countries whom he has harmed, 
including our own people. The Kurdish people, the Marsh Arabs, the 
Assyrian minority, the members of the Iraqi National Congress, the 
Kuwaiti prisoners of war, these are just a few of the victims of Saddam 
and his ruthless regime.
  Mr. Speaker, he has used chemical weapons against his own people. In 
1988, 8,000 Kurds were killed in Halabja by one poison gas attack using 
the chemical agent sarin that he had produced. Now we are in Iraq 
trying to determine where he keeps those supplies and of an even worse 
nerve agent, VX, that just like sarin can kill people in the way he 
killed Iraqi Kurds in Halabja--mercilessly and indiscriminately.
  He has waged ecological war against his own people, the Marsh Arabs. 
He has tortured, murdered, and kidnapped to maintain power. Saddam 
Hussein has clearly committed, in my judgment, crimes against humanity, 
crimes against the peace, and gross breaches of humanitarian law. If 
there is any individual in the world who deserves to be brought to 
justice today, it is Saddam Hussein.
  I would commend this resolution to my colleagues and urge all of them 
to join me in sending a strong message to Saddam Hussein and the 
international community that the United States has not forgotten his 
crimes, that we hold him accountable for these abuses, and we demand 
justice for his victims.
  Mr. Speaker, on the steps of the Capitol right now there are people, 
Kurds, who are starving themselves. They are I believe 25 days into a 
hunger strike to free Leyla Zana, a Turkish Parliamentarian who was 
elected in 1991, came to the United States in 1993 to testify about 
human rights abuses against the Kurdish minority in her country, 
testified before a standing committee of Congress and before the 
Congressional Human Rights Caucus, went home, was then stripped of her 
office by her government, placed in jail, tried for what is equivalent 
to treason, and given a 15-year sentence for merely speaking her mind 
and testifying before the United States Congress.
  Turkey and Iraq together at this moment, Mr. Speaker, are attacking 
the Kurds in northern Iraq. Turkey has come across the line with tens 
of thousands of their elite troops, using napalm and cluster bombs 
against the Kurdish minority that has fled their country. Iraq is 
joining in on the other side. Both are persecuting the Kurds at this 
moment. Each of the countries in which the Kurds exist as a minority, 
in Turkey, in Iraq, in Iran, in Syria, each one of them oppresses that 
minority. Each one of them turns Kurd against Kurd in an effort to 
oppress them, and each one of them calls the Kurdish people, who would 
seek only basic human rights, terrorists, when they are only protecting 
themselves from oppression.
  Mr. Speaker, the oppression must end. The Kurds are not terrorists. 
There may be some who believe they have no other way out, but the 
Kurdish people are not terrorists. They are people simply seeking their 
rights, their rights against the Turkish Government, their rights 
against the Iranian Government, their rights against the Syrian 
Government, and their rights also against the Iraqi regime of Saddam 
Hussein.
  It is the governments who oppress them that are the terrorists. It is 
the governments who deny them their

[[Page H10872]]

basic human rights, deny them respect and standing in their 
communities, kill them and their children on a daily basis, attempt to 
drive them out of their societies--those are the true terrorists, Mr. 
Speaker.
  The chief among them is Saddam Hussein, whose regime responds to 
nothing, not to public pressure, not to resolutions from the Security 
Council. It is time that we isolate this regime. It is time that we 
declare Saddam Hussein to be what he is, a person who commits crimes 
against humanity that all of us abhor. It is time that we indict him 
and try him and remove him from power, and that we return Iraq to a 
State that can live in the world community at peace with its neighbors 
and stop this murderous, ruthless dictatorial regime from further 
oppressing its people and threatening its neighbors.
  Mr. HASTINGS of Florida. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to yield 3 minutes 
to the distinguished gentleman from California [Mr. Lantos], a 
continuing champion for human rights around the world.

                              {time}  1415

  Mr. LANTOS. Mr. Speaker, I thank the gentleman for yielding me this 
time. I want to commend the cochairman on the Republican side of the 
Congressional Human Rights Caucus, the gentleman from Illinois [Mr. 
Porter], for his powerful and eloquent statement, and I want to commend 
the chairman of the Committee on International Relations, who has been 
indefatigable in his fight for human rights, in bringing H. Con. Res. 
137 before us.
  I fully concur with all previous statements made concerning Saddam 
Hussein and his despicable regime. It is remarkable, Mr. Speaker, that 
even at this late date there are apologies for Saddam Hussein and his 
brutal and cruel regime in the West. There are countries that can 
hardly wait to renew on a large scale their lucrative business deals 
with Iraq, despite the fact that the Saddam Hussein regime has been 
attempting to conceal, hide, obfuscate its continuing development of 
weapons of mass destruction.
  Later this afternoon, this body will have an opportunity of dealing 
with a resolution that expresses the view of the House that if peaceful 
and diplomatic measures do not succeed, military action, preferably on 
a multinational scale, be undertaken to eliminate Hussein's chemical, 
biological, nuclear and missile capability. But while that is a 
military issue, this is a human rights issue. A regime which has poison 
gassed its own people, a regime which perpetrates the worst human 
rights violations of the 20th century against its own people, does 
indeed need to be hauled before an international tribunal and tried for 
crimes against humanity. If there was central casting's appropriate 
person to be hauled before the international community for crimes 
against humanity, it is Saddam Hussein. His brutality, his 
ruthlessness, his bloodthirstiness, knows no bounds.
  I call on all of my colleagues across the aisle to vote to approve 
this important measure.
  Mr. GILMAN. Mr. Speaker, I yield 3 minutes to the gentleman from 
California [Mr. Rohrabacher], a member of our committee.
  Mr. ROHRABACHER. Mr. Speaker, I rise in strong support of the Porter 
amendment to indict Saddam Hussein for crimes against humanity and war 
crimes as well. I voted for the gulf war, and I did so reluctantly but 
I knew that our national well-being and our national security were at 
stake. I then cheered the troops when they came home victorious, what 
seemed to be one of the greatest and most glorious victories in our 
country's history.
  Yet the job was not finished. If President Bush has anything to 
regret, it should be the fact that he sent our troops by the hundreds 
of thousands to the Persian Gulf and we did not finish the job when our 
people were there.
  It is clear that the enemy of the United States was not the people of 
Iraq. The Porter amendment today focuses on the real enemy of not only 
the United States but people who believe in democratic rights and human 
rights, Saddam Hussein and his clique of thugs that control Iraq. 
During the gulf war we killed hundreds of thousands, perhaps hundreds 
of thousands of young men, and perhaps some women and children as well, 
who were not enemies of the United States. Many of those people had 
just been drafted into the army by a tyrant named Saddam Hussein.
  This amendment goes straight to the heart of the issue. Saddam 
Hussein is our enemy. We should indict this man. He should be brought 
to trial like any other war criminal, whether it was Adolf Hitler or 
some of the Serbian gangsters who have committed genocide more recently 
in Bosnia.
  Again, this underscores and what has happened underscores that there 
is a relationship between peace and freedom and prosperity. If we go 
for short-term peace and we try to bring our troops home too soon or we 
cut deals with tyrants, it will bring us neither peace nor freedom. We 
cannot compromise the value of freedom because in the end it will bring 
us to a situation where our security is under attack.
  Let us not forget, as well, that over 600 Kuwaiti POW's have yet to 
be accounted for. There are thousands upon thousands of Kuwaiti 
families who are missing a member of their family who have never been 
accounted for, who were killed or taken away by the Iraqis when they 
invaded that country and occupied it for that year. That is the 
equivalent of millions of Americans who would have a family member lost 
and unaccounted for. There must be an accounting of the Kuwaiti 
prisoners of war. There must be an accounting of Saddam Hussein for all 
of his crimes.
  Let us remember that when the Soviet Union began to evolve into what 
is now a democratic Russia or continues to struggle to try to be a 
democratic Russia, the chances for peace went up. A demand for freedom 
in Iraq and an elimination of this tyrant, Saddam Hussein, will 
increase the chances for peace in that entire region and secure the 
United States of America as well. I strongly support the amendment of 
the gentleman from Illinois [Mr. Porter] to bring Saddam Hussein to 
task.
  Mr. GILMAN. Mr. Speaker, I thank the gentleman from California [Mr. 
Rohrabacher] for his eloquent words.
  Mr. Speaker, I yield 2 minutes to the gentleman from Virginia [Mr. 
Wolf].
  (Mr. WOLF asked and was given permission to revise and extend his 
remarks.)
  Mr. WOLF. Mr. Speaker, I rise in very strong support of H. Con. Res. 
137, which condemns the government of Iraq for its continued reign of 
terror against the Kurds, and that is what it has basically been for 
the last several years, a reign of terror that unfortunately the West 
has not focused on. But with this resolution and with the effort that 
the Kurds are now making, I think more and more people are focusing on 
it.
  What this would do is encourage the establishment of a war crimes 
tribunal to try Saddam Hussein and the other Iraqi officials for their 
crimes against humanity. I want to commend the gentleman from Illinois 
[Mr. Porter], the gentleman from New York [Mr. Gilman], and the other 
Members for sponsoring this resolution. Hopefully this resolution will 
send a message not only through the United States, but to the Kurdish 
population around the world and particularly in that area, that the 
United States Congress, the people's House, cares very, very deeply.
  Iraq is a bad actor government. Saddam Hussein is a brutal dictator 
who cares about nothing more than hanging onto his power. He has 
persecuted the people of Iraq. He is engaging in a dangerous showdown 
with the West. He is not afraid to murder members of his own family who 
threaten to tell the truth about his brutality or threaten his reign.
  He is seeking to wipe out the Kurds of northern Iraq who are trapped 
because of their geography. The Kurds of northern Iraq have nowhere to 
go to escape their plight. They have been and are being murdered, 
imprisoned, tortured and repressed. Hopefully with this resolution, 
sponsored by the gentleman from Illinois [Mr. Porter] and supported by 
the gentleman from New York [Mr. Gilman] and so many other Members, it 
will send a message to Saddam Hussein that the West cares, and send a 
message to the Kurds that are going through this problem that we deeply 
care and that we stand with them.
  Mr. GILMAN. I thank the gentleman from Virginia [Mr. Wolf] for his 
kind remarks in support of the resolution.

[[Page H10873]]

  Mr. Speaker, I yield 4 minutes to the gentleman from Texas [Mr. 
Paul].
  Mr. PAUL. I thank the gentleman for yielding me this time.
  Mr. Speaker, I agree certainly with the sharp criticism against the 
government and the leaders of Iraq. I do disagree with what we are 
trying to do here, not because it is not well motivated, but I do not 
see that we have the authority to all of a sudden impose our system of 
justice across the entire world. I do not think it is effective. I 
think it drums up anti-American hostility more than it achieves 
justice.
  But there is a bit of inconsistency here. Earlier it was mentioned 
that it is not only the Iraqis that abuse the Kurds, the Turks do it as 
well. Why are the Turks not included in this? Why do we not call them 
out and put them on the carpet and demand justice from the Turks? But 
they happen to be our allies.
  At the same time, we ignore other major problems. What did we do with 
China? The leaders of China came here, they got the red carpet 
treatment and a promise of more money. But how do they treat their 
people at Tiananmen Square and currently throughout their whole 
country? They abuse civil liberties there.
  But are we going to do the same thing? Do Members think we can do 
that? We pick and choose and pretend that we are going to perform this 
great system of justice on the world. Indonesia today, they are getting 
bailed out by the American taxpayer to the tune of tens of billions of 
dollars. They mistreat in a serious manner the people in East Timor. 
But here we decide all of a sudden that we are going to, through the 
United Nations, expose the American taxpayer, expose young American 
soldiers, because how are we going to enforce these things? Where do we 
get this authority to be the policeman of the world?
  I do not believe we have this authority. I believe it is detrimental 
overall to our national security. I believe it is a threat to the 
American people and indirectly, in many ways, to the taxpayer. I 
object. I object generally to so many of these amendments, so well-
intended. I do not disagree with the challenges, the charges made 
against Iraq and the leadership. I strongly criticize the approach to 
trying to solve this very serious problem.
  Mr. ROHRABACHER. Mr. Speaker, will the gentleman yield?
  Mr. PAUL. I yield to the gentleman from California.
  Mr. ROHRABACHER. First, would the gentleman suggest that there is not 
a relationship between freedom and peace?
  Mr. PAUL. Mr. Speaker, I am not sure what the gentleman is getting 
at. I know the most important thing for freedom and peace is for me to 
obey the Constitution. Where is it the authority of the Constitution 
for us to police the world?
  Mr. ROHRABACHER. The gentleman is suggesting, then, that this body 
should not have condemned Adolf Hitler until he actually attacked the 
United States, is that what he would suggest? Is that his foreign 
policy?
  Mr. PAUL. I think that is not the debate on the floor right now. I 
think when our national security is threatened, the American people 
have a right to vote through their Congressmen for a declaration of 
war.
  This is the kind of thing that leads to Vietnam War-type wars and 
U.N. sanctions. This is the kind of thing that leads to Koreas, 
Vietnams and useless wars. This is why we did not win the war in the 
Persian Gulf and why we are still faced with this problem.
  Mr. ROHRABACHER. Short of a declaration of war, the gentleman does 
not think the United States Government should do anything about 
tyranny?
  Mr. PAUL. I believe in the responsibility of this U.S. Congress to 
assume that they are the ones that declare war in a proper manner.
  Mr. Speaker, in closing, I have no criticism about those who are 
challenging the leadership in Iraq. I condemn them. I challenge, 
though, the technique that we are using, the process that we are using. 
I do not believe we have the authority. Long-term, it is not effective.
  It is totally inconsistent when we are dealing with China. These 
token resolutions that we dealt with on China will have nothing to do 
with solving the problem. At the same time, we give them more money, we 
give the Turks more money, we give China more money, we give Indonesia 
more money, and they are all in the process of abusing civil liberties. 
I just think that we have conveniently picked a whipping horse and we 
are pretending that we are doing some good.
  Mr. HASTINGS of Florida. Mr. Speaker, I yield 2 minutes to the 
gentleman from Illinois [Mr. Porter].
  Mr. PORTER. Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to say to the gentleman who 
just finished speaking that I certainly respect the consistency of his 
ideas, but I disagree. If he had expressed those ideas as a member of 
the parliament in Turkey or if he expressed them in Iraq or in 
Indonesia, he might well find himself in the same situation as Leyla 
Zana and the Kurdish parliamentarians found themselves and, that is, 
behind bars. It seems to me that if we do not recognize that we are our 
brothers' and sisters' keeper, that our freedoms and theirs are in some 
way connected, we will invite the kind of terrorism that Saddam Hussein 
practices on his people and others practice on their people throughout 
this world.

                              {time}  1430

  Let me agree with him, however, in part. Let us stop giving money to 
the Turks as long as they repress their people. Let us stop giving 
money to the Indonesian Government that takes away the religious 
freedoms of the people of East Timor. Let us stop supporting dictators 
that deny the basic human rights of their people.
  I believe that we attempt very strongly to be consistent. We passed 
nine bills dealing with China. Those bills do have a potential, 
particularly the one on Radio Free Asia that will broadcast to China 
and Tibet and North Korea and Burma. I think we have a potential for 
positively impacting their society.
  Let us never give up our ideals and our beliefs in human freedom, the 
very foundation of this society, because we might see a little 
inconsistency or cannot find the exact words we want to give us 
authority. The authority is moral authority, and it has a great power 
in this world if only we will exercise it.
  Mr. HASTINGS of Florida. Mr. Speaker, I yield back the balance of my 
time.
  Mr. GILMAN. Mr. Speaker, I yield back the balance of my time.
  The SPEAKER pro tempore (Mr. Snowbarger). The question is on the 
motion offered by the gentleman from New York [Mr. Gilman] that the 
House suspend the rules and agree to the concurrent resolution, House 
Concurrent Resolution 137.
  The question was taken.
  Mr. PORTER. Mr. Speaker, on that I demand the yeas and nays.
  The yeas and nays were ordered.
  The SPEAKER pro tempore. Pursuant to clause 5 of rule I and the 
Chair's prior announcement, further proceedings on this motion will be 
postponed.

                          ____________________