[Congressional Record Volume 143, Number 92 (Thursday, June 26, 1997)]
[Senate]
[Pages S6399-S6401]
From the Congressional Record Online through the Government Publishing Office [www.gpo.gov]




                   REVENUE RECONCILIATION ACT OF 1997

  The Senate continued with the consideration of the bill.


                            Motion to Refer

  The PRESIDING OFFICER. The order of business is the motion made by 
the Senator from North Dakota, a motion to refer to the Budget 
Committee with instructions.
  I believe 10 minutes of debate, equally divided, are in order, am I 
not correct?
  Mr. MOYNIHAN. The Chair is always correct.
  I yield 5 minutes to the Senator from North Dakota.
  Mr. DORGAN. Mr. President, I will be brief. This motion is relatively 
simple.
  My concern about where we are heading is this. I am concerned that we 
will decide to have balanced the budget and provided substantial tax 
cuts. And then, because the tax cuts are so backloaded, in the second 5 
years our country will find itself back in a deficit.
  I propose that we remedy that by having a trigger mechanism that 
would sunset the provisions of capital gains

[[Page S6400]]

and the IRA's in the following circumstances: First, if the estimated 
loss as a result of the tax cuts exceeds our current expectations; and 
second, if the Treasury Department says we are running a deficit in the 
previous fiscal year.
  My point is very simple. If we begin to run a deficit, and if running 
a deficit is because the cost of these tax cuts exceeds what we now 
think it will be, I would like us to trigger them off so we can get the 
budget back in balance. I just do not want to get into a circumstance 
that we have found ourselves in previously. We do not want to think we 
will turn out all right, and find 7 years down the road a huge Federal 
deficit.
  I point out that the tax cuts in this bill are fairly well 
backloaded, and the upper-income tax cuts, just as an example, $17.8 
billion in 2002, the same tax cuts will cost nearly $100 billion in the 
year 2007. My fear is because the tax cuts are backloaded we could find 
ourselves in a circumstance where we are right back into a deficit.
  Again, the two points are this: If the cost of the tax cuts 
significantly exceeds what we estimated them to be, and if we have had 
a deficit in the previous fiscal year, then my motion would trigger a 
repeal, temporary repeal, of four provisions of the tax cut dealing 
with capital gains and IRA's.
  I reserve the balance of my time.
  The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Senator from Delaware.
  Mr. ROTH. At the appropriate time I will make a point of order 
against the motion to refer on two grounds.
  Let me point out in the beginning that this is a matter that was not 
included in the budget agreement. It introduces a new aspect to the 
agreement that is not consistent with what we have discussed before.
  I yield 2 minutes to the Senator from New Mexico.
  Mr. DOMENICI. Mr. President, first of all, we discussed all of these 
issues in the very lengthy negotiation with the White House. Their 
packages in the past have been gifted by having the tax cuts be 
temporary. That is the way the President's budgets have been in the 
past. He finally came to the realization that that was not fair to the 
American taxpayers. So that concept was eliminated from the budget 
agreement. We are going to give taxpayers a tax cut, period.
  But also the argument that is being made that this may somehow 
explode in the outyears, we have an agreement that for the first 10 
years it will not exceed $250 billion. I understand the valuation of 
this package is that we have done that in this finance bill. It is only 
$247 billion over 10 years. That is the best we can do. We are right on 
the money.
  I believe we ought to leave the agreement alone and leave this very 
good tax bill alone.
  Mr. ROTH. I yield the remaining time to the Senator from Oklahoma.
  The PRESIDING OFFICER. There are 3 minutes and 17 seconds remaining.
  Mr. NICKLES. I urge my colleagues to vote no on this motion. This 
motion basically says if we do not meet the targets we will have 
automatic tax increases. You did not hear it the other way around--you 
did not hear if we do meet the targets, we will have automatic 
decreases.
  The question is, are we spending too much, or are we taxing too 
little? The Senator from North Dakota obviously thinks if there is a 
deficit we need more taxes. We need to reach in and take more away from 
taxpayers. I disagree with that. That is the President's position.
  As the Senator from New Mexico said, he had automatic tax increases 
in the outyears. We did not agree with that in the leadership package 
with the President. We said no, the tax cuts will be permanent. They 
will be real, and they are not stacked toward higher income. Despite 
what some of my colleagues said, 82 percent of tax cuts are directed 
towards families with children and for education. That is family 
friendly.
  So I will just urge my colleagues, if we are going to have an 
automatic deficit reduction, make sure we meet the targets. Let's work 
on the spending side. Let's have something automatically that will 
reduce Government spending. I really do believe the problem is not that 
we are undertaxed. I really believe that the problem is we are 
overspent.
  I urge my colleagues to vote no on this motion.
  Mr. ROTH. Has all time been yielded back?
  The PRESIDING OFFICER. All time has not been yielded back. The 
Senator from Delaware has 1 minute and 45 seconds and the Senator from 
North Dakota has 2 minutes, 54 seconds.
  Mr. DORGAN. Mr. President, I say to the Senator from Oklahoma, I am 
not suggesting that we should increase taxes. I am saying to the extent 
that we now reduce taxes and reduce revenue, and to the extent that 
that helps cause another Federal deficit in the second 5 years because 
the cost of those tax cuts explodes, I say we should put an insurance 
or safety mechanism in this bill to prevent us from running a deficit 
again.
  Now, I hope that we will have learned from the last decade. There is 
merit, and I compliment the Members of this Congress who care about the 
Federal deficit, there is merit in fiscal discipline in dealing with 
the deficit. I just urge if we have a circumstance where we can provide 
protection in the outyears against an exploding of the Federal deficit, 
again we try to do that.
  I am somewhat concerned that the chairman will make a point of order 
against my motion. I understand that there will be a budget enforcement 
mechanism offered by the Senator from New Mexico. Will a point of order 
will be made against them? Enforcement mechanisms that provide 
protection against an explosion of the Federal deficit make great sense 
to me. That is the proposal that I offer with this trigger.
  I reserve the balance of my time.
  Mr. NICKLES. Mr. President, again, I just say that there are two 
sides to the question. We started some new spending programs. We have a 
program called Kid Care, and the agreement was for it to be $16 
billion. It has grown already to $24 billion. Guess what? That 
additional $8 billion is only for 5 years. We do not even pretend it 
goes the next 5 years. So what about if that program explodes?
  My point being, the motion of the Senator from North Dakota is if we 
do not meet deficit targets we have automatic tax increases, or we will 
tell people they can have capital gains for 5 years but not beyond, or 
tell people they can have an IRA this year, but not in the future?
  I think we should restrain spending, not increase taxes. I urge my 
colleagues to vote no on this motion.
  I yield the balance of my time.
  Mr. DORGAN. Well, let us suppose that in 7, 8, or 9 years we see the 
deficit begin to explode on us. Is the Senator suggesting that we cut 
health care for kids, but that we retain tax cuts that are backloaded, 
that are six and eight times as large in the year 2007 than in the year 
2002, and are for the largest income earners in this country? I would 
like to see us vote on that in the U.S. Senate.
  My point is we are making deliberate decisions about the Tax Code 
here, some good decisions, some I think are not so good.
  We need to think about the consequences of these decisions. This 
motion would help us do that. If the tax cuts exceed the expected 
amount and if we are also running a deficit in the outyears, four 
provisions of this tax cut bill would be temporarily suspended.
  That is my motion to refer today. I hope the Senate would consider it 
favorably.
  I yield back the balance of my time.
  The PRESIDING OFFICER. All time has expired. The Senator from 
Delaware.
  Mr. ROTH. Mr. President, I make a point of order against the motion 
to refer on two grounds. First, that it is not germane to the bill 
under section 305 of the budget, and second that the motion includes 
budget process matters not reported from the Budget Committee, in 
violation of section 306.
  Mr. DORGAN. Mr. President, pursuant to Section 904(c) of the 
Congressional Budget Act, I move to waive Section 305(b) to Section 306 
of that act with respect to my motion.
  I ask for the yeas and nays.
  The PRESIDING OFFICER. Is there a sufficient second?
  There is a sufficient second.

[[Page S6401]]

  The yeas and nays were ordered.


                 Vote on Motion to Waive the Budget Act

  The PRESIDING OFFICER. The question is on agreeing to the motion to 
waive the Budget Act. The yeas and nays have been ordered. The clerk 
will call the roll.
  The assistant legislative clerk called the roll.
  Mr. NICKLES. I announce that the Senator from Kansas [Mr. Roberts] 
and the Senator from New York [Mr. D'Amato] are necessarily absent.
  The PRESIDING OFFICER. Are there any other Senators in the Chamber 
desiring to vote?
  The yeas and nays resulted--yeas 34, nays 64, as follows:

                      [Rollcall Vote No. 133 Leg.]

                                YEAS--34

     Akaka
     Biden
     Bingaman
     Boxer
     Bumpers
     Byrd
     Conrad
     Daschle
     Dodd
     Dorgan
     Durbin
     Feingold
     Feinstein
     Ford
     Glenn
     Harkin
     Hollings
     Inouye
     Johnson
     Kennedy
     Kerry
     Kohl
     Lautenberg
     Leahy
     Levin
     Moseley-Braun
     Murray
     Reed
     Reid
     Robb
     Sarbanes
     Torricelli
     Wellstone
     Wyden

                                NAYS--64

     Abraham
     Allard
     Ashcroft
     Baucus
     Bennett
     Bond
     Breaux
     Brownback
     Bryan
     Burns
     Campbell
     Chafee
     Cleland
     Coats
     Cochran
     Collins
     Coverdell
     Craig
     DeWine
     Domenici
     Enzi
     Faircloth
     Frist
     Gorton
     Graham
     Gramm
     Grams
     Grassley
     Gregg
     Hagel
     Hatch
     Helms
     Hutchinson
     Hutchison
     Inhofe
     Jeffords
     Kempthorne
     Kerrey
     Kyl
     Landrieu
     Lieberman
     Lott
     Lugar
     Mack
     McCain
     McConnell
     Mikulski
     Moynihan
     Murkowski
     Nickles
     Rockefeller
     Roth
     Santorum
     Sessions
     Shelby
     Smith (NH)
     Smith (OR)
     Snowe
     Specter
     Stevens
     Thomas
     Thompson
     Thurmond
     Warner

                             NOT VOTING--2

     D'Amato
     Roberts
       
  The PRESIDING OFFICER. On this vote the yeas are 34, the nays are 64. 
Three-fifths of the Senators duly chosen and sworn not having voted in 
the affirmative, the motion is rejected.
  The point of order is sustained on both grounds.
  The motion to refer is not in order.
  The Senator from New York.
  Mr. MOYNIHAN. Mr. President, I move to reconsider the vote by which 
the motion was rejected.
  Mr. NICKLES. I move to lay that motion on the table.
  The motion to lay on the table was agreed to.
  Mr. MOYNIHAN. Mr. President, I suggest the absence of a quorum.
  The PRESIDING OFFICER. The clerk will call the roll.
  The assistant legislative clerk proceeded to call the roll.
  Mr. ROTH. Mr. President, I ask unanimous consent that the order for 
the quorum call be rescinded.
  The PRESIDING OFFICER. Without objection, it is so ordered.

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